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[00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:03.360] They say that home is where the heart is.
[00:00:03.360 --> 00:00:08.960] Maybe that's why so many fall in love with Big Pine Key and Florida's Lower Keys.
[00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:20.000] With epic ocean views, unspoiled wilderness, sandy beaches, abundant wildlife, RV resorts, and Stock Island's rustic charm.
[00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:23.680] Florida's lower keys don't skip a beat.
[00:00:23.680 --> 00:00:29.440] For more about the lower keys, visit fla keys.com/slash lower keys.
[00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:46.480] It is Thursday, the 19th of June, 2025, and you're listening to Skeptics with a K, the podcast for science, reason, and critical thinking.
[00:00:46.480 --> 00:00:58.160] Skeptics with a K is produced by Skeptic Media in association with the Merseyside Skeptic Society, a non-profit organization for the promotion of scientific skepticism on Merseyside around the UK and internationally.
[00:00:58.160 --> 00:00:59.600] I'm your host, Mike Hall.
[00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:00.960] With me today is Marsh.
[00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:01.520] Hello.
[00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:02.320] And Alice.
[00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:02.800] Hello.
[00:01:02.800 --> 00:01:06.720] I nearly just listened to the bit where you said with me to do is Marsh, and I nearly just listened to that.
[00:01:06.720 --> 00:01:08.080] I'd be like, I am listening.
[00:01:08.800 --> 00:01:11.200] I don't know, because we haven't recorded in a little while.
[00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:11.760] It's a long time.
[00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:12.560] It's been about a month.
[00:01:12.960 --> 00:01:13.520] It's a long time.
[00:01:13.520 --> 00:01:14.480] It's a long time.
[00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:15.760] I've forgotten how to do it.
[00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:17.680] Because listeners probably won't be aware.
[00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:24.960] We hinted to this obliquely in some of the shows that we've just recorded that we have recorded a few shows out of time because we've all been on holiday.
[00:01:24.960 --> 00:01:26.240] In fact, that's not true.
[00:01:26.240 --> 00:01:28.720] You two have just come back from two separate holidays.
[00:01:28.720 --> 00:01:29.680] Let's say you've been on holiday.
[00:01:30.320 --> 00:01:31.280] We've been on two holidays.
[00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:32.160] Yeah, Alice, I've been on one holiday.
[00:01:32.240 --> 00:01:32.640] One together.
[00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:35.520] And one apartment.
[00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:40.080] But I am shortly after this recording jetting off on my own holiday.
[00:01:40.080 --> 00:01:43.040] So, yeah, we've had to do some jiggery poker with it.
[00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:44.400] We've been recording all over the place.
[00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:46.000] With the schedule, but we're here now.
[00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:46.800] We're here, listeners.
[00:01:46.800 --> 00:01:47.200] We're here for now.
[00:01:47.360 --> 00:01:48.320] Thank you.
[00:01:48.320 --> 00:01:51.200] So, as you say, I've just got back from a holiday and I've spent the past 10 days.
[00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:58.640] I literally got back Friday morning at like half one, and I've spent the past 10 days eating delicious Turkish food.
[00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:00.040] Like, Turkish food is really good.
[00:01:58.800 --> 00:02:04.760] I think Turkish food is underrated, and people don't quite appreciate how good Turkish food is.
[00:01:58.880 --> 00:01:59.840] Turkish food is really good.
[00:02:05.960 --> 00:02:07.560] It's not just kebabs and hummus.
[00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:09.240] I thought that it was just kebabs and hummus.
[00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:10.120] Delicious.
[00:02:10.440 --> 00:02:11.480] But this is the thing.
[00:02:11.480 --> 00:02:14.280] People think it's just the grilled meat, but it's the grilled meat.
[00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:16.520] It's the different kinds of grilled meat.
[00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:18.040] It's the grilled fish.
[00:02:18.040 --> 00:02:18.760] I like a grilled fish.
[00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:22.120] It's all the delicious tasty mesae, lots of aubergines, lots of peppers.
[00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:22.840] Like it's all really good.
[00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:23.960] I've just got back from Croatia.
[00:02:23.960 --> 00:02:26.680] I'll tell a story at the end of the show about being away in Croatia.
[00:02:26.680 --> 00:02:32.760] But I was all about the grilled fish in Croatia, which made it very frustrating that I couldn't find any for most of the time that I was there.
[00:02:33.160 --> 00:02:36.120] And because it was fucking expensive, which I'll mention at the end of the show.
[00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:45.720] But the best grilled fish I had, or one of the best grilled fishes I had, was on a boat trip between islands where there was like 30 of us or 40 of us on a board, and they were just grilling a fish on the boat.
[00:02:45.720 --> 00:02:48.120] And we're like, there you go, slop, have your fish.
[00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:49.320] Incredible grilled fish.
[00:02:49.480 --> 00:02:51.560] Where the boat driver goes off to grill the fish off.
[00:02:51.880 --> 00:02:52.680] Yeah, exactly that.
[00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:53.320] Exactly that.
[00:02:53.320 --> 00:02:54.760] We did one of those project trips as well.
[00:02:54.920 --> 00:02:55.560] Incredible grilled fish.
[00:02:55.720 --> 00:02:57.400] Did they haul it over the side as you were going?
[00:02:57.400 --> 00:02:59.160] Was it technically a duty-free?
[00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:01.960] Was it in international waters?
[00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:03.240] Well, you say that.
[00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:05.320] It was incredibly expensive to drink where I was.
[00:03:05.320 --> 00:03:05.720] Yes.
[00:03:05.720 --> 00:03:08.840] So on the boat, it was free wine with the food and things.
[00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:09.880] And free wine anytime.
[00:03:09.880 --> 00:03:10.920] There's a bottle of wine there.
[00:03:10.920 --> 00:03:12.040] If you want wine, help yourself.
[00:03:12.040 --> 00:03:14.440] And they put a litre of wine on each of the tables.
[00:03:14.440 --> 00:03:16.200] And it was me and Nicholas sat on our table.
[00:03:16.200 --> 00:03:17.400] And we were caught at the beach afterwards.
[00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:19.800] And I thought, I could pop that litre in the back.
[00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:26.200] So I think the cheapest meal that I had was on the boat, including the price of the boat trip.
[00:03:26.200 --> 00:03:27.320] Okay, good.
[00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:31.160] So I've talked on the show before about how my autism shows up with food.
[00:03:31.160 --> 00:03:38.760] That well into my adulthood, I struggled to eat lots of things due to difficulties, specifically with texture, but other things kind of play into it.
[00:03:38.760 --> 00:03:49.360] Which means almost all vegetables were off-limits until I started working in a steakhouse when I was 15 and gradually built up the courage, and I do mean courage, to try and love buttery mushrooms.
[00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:50.240] That was the first thing I had to do.
[00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:51.440] Was it really buttery mushrooms?
[00:03:51.440 --> 00:03:52.720] That's not a vegetable.
[00:03:52.720 --> 00:03:53.040] No.
[00:03:53.040 --> 00:03:55.760] Your introduction to vegetables was with not a vegetable.
[00:03:55.760 --> 00:03:56.720] That doesn't count.
[00:03:56.720 --> 00:04:00.080] The next thing you ate after that was actually your introduction to vegetables.
[00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:01.040] You've been lying yourself.
[00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:02.560] It is a colloquial vegetable.
[00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:05.760] Technically, there's no such thing as a vegetable.
[00:04:05.760 --> 00:04:08.160] A vegetable is a culinary term, not a like.
[00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:10.480] Mushrooms in the veg aisle at Tesco.
[00:04:10.480 --> 00:04:10.880] Yeah.
[00:04:10.880 --> 00:04:12.000] Okay, fine.
[00:04:12.640 --> 00:04:17.280] Then at university, I managed to add bell peppers to my diet very gradually over the course of several years.
[00:04:17.280 --> 00:04:20.480] And since then, I've added new vegetables to my diet bit by bit.
[00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:24.000] Some like aubergine becoming firm favourites very quickly.
[00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:29.600] Others like tomatoes taking many years to get to a point of even being able to tolerate the texture.
[00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:32.640] I think I've been working on tomatoes for like eight years.
[00:04:32.640 --> 00:04:35.680] And I still like, I still couldn't sit down and eat a piece of raw.
[00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:36.880] God, I bloody love a tomato.
[00:04:36.880 --> 00:04:38.480] I can eat a tomato like an apple.
[00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:39.920] I can just bite it into a tomato.
[00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:40.800] A little bit of salt on it.
[00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:42.000] Chomp, lovely.
[00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:45.040] So I've been improving gradually for the past 10 years or so.
[00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:56.320] But even then, this is still kind of the first year that I was able to sit down at a Turkish restaurant and eat and enjoy the vast majority of a dozen or so mesé dishes that were brought to the table.
[00:04:56.320 --> 00:05:01.200] So things like roasted aubergine, cold roasted aubergine, which even last year would have been like a broader.
[00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:02.720] A cold roasted aubergine.
[00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:06.800] Like a roasted aubergine mesé dish that is served up like room temperature.
[00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:09.200] It was roasted and then left to cool.
[00:05:09.440 --> 00:05:13.440] I thought cold roasting was like a special culinary technique I wasn't aware of.
[00:05:13.440 --> 00:05:15.360] Like cold fusion for aubergine.
[00:05:16.320 --> 00:05:26.240] And it genuinely feels like a revelation for me to be able to go on holiday to a country and enjoy the food that is part of that country's culture without it being a big deal or a hurdle to get over.
[00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:29.360] When we were in Barcelona, you had the squid ink risotto.
[00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:31.080] Would that have been a problem previously?
[00:05:31.080 --> 00:05:33.560] No, so that always would have been things like that would have been fine.
[00:05:33.560 --> 00:05:35.160] Carbs were always fine.
[00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:38.280] Meat, always fine as long as it was lean, like fatty meat I'd struggle with.
[00:05:38.280 --> 00:05:40.520] Squid has always been a reasonably safe thing.
[00:05:40.520 --> 00:05:45.800] The squid ink risotto would have been fine as long as it didn't have big chunks of obvious onion in it.
[00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:53.400] The onion, particularly in rice or mince meat, is quite tricky because it's hard to pick around it if it's mixed into something else that's bitty.
[00:05:53.640 --> 00:05:57.000] I could do very finely diced onion, but great big chunks of onion.
[00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:59.240] I'm not, I'm not, and raw onion is fully off the table.
[00:05:59.640 --> 00:06:00.520] I can do now.
[00:06:00.520 --> 00:06:10.680] I've got a lot better, but it used to be like I would have picked around every single piece of onion and then get very frustrated when people lie to me and be like, oh, yeah, there's no, you can't tell, there's no onion in this.
[00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:13.720] It's like, yeah, but I can see it and I can feel the texture of it.
[00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:14.040] And I can.
[00:06:14.280 --> 00:06:19.960] I obviously don't have like the texture sensitivity or any of the kind of food kind of stuff that you've struggled with.
[00:06:19.960 --> 00:06:29.480] But I also don't have the thing that a lot of normal people have, which is preferences and not anti-preferences, because it's just food arrives and you eat it.
[00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:30.120] That's what you do.
[00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:35.000] And when you don't have like a texture thing to worry about, then you just do get told you eat your food and you eat it.
[00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:41.960] So I don't think there's anything I can really think of that I don't eat in terms of certainly vegetables that could appear on a plate.
[00:06:41.960 --> 00:06:43.400] I don't think there's absolutely anything.
[00:06:43.400 --> 00:06:48.440] So I don't even have like the not pickiness, but the preference that somebody without food issues would have.
[00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:56.520] Well, and this is the other thing that was a bit of a revelation for me was like having things that I dislike because of a preference.
[00:06:56.520 --> 00:07:00.600] Like, historically, it was always just there were things that I could eat and things that I couldn't eat.
[00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:02.280] And the things that I could eat were things that I liked.
[00:07:02.280 --> 00:07:05.800] And the things that I couldn't eat, I couldn't tell you if I liked them or not because I couldn't eat them.
[00:07:05.960 --> 00:07:10.920] I couldn't keep them in my mouth long enough to know whether I liked the flavour or not.
[00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:26.880] So, being able to have all those mese dishes, and the thing that I didn't eat was the yogurt with mint and cucumber because I don't like mint and cucumber, not because I can't eat mint and cucumber, I just don't like it is a complete revelation to have a preference.
[00:07:27.200 --> 00:07:32.400] Obviously, there's loads of trauma held up in those kind of formative food-related experiences.
[00:07:32.400 --> 00:07:39.680] A lot of stigma, even still, on what's around this kind of topic, what's considered by a lot of people as picky eating.
[00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:48.160] And on top of that, I have personal body image issues that ultimately always get tied up in the food we eat just because of my own personal experiences in childhood.
[00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:55.600] But perhaps the unusual thing for somebody who has such a complicated relationship with food is that I find food fascinating.
[00:07:55.600 --> 00:08:00.800] Like, I love good food, I love to cook, especially to cook for people who I care about.
[00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:06.000] And I grew up in a household of foodies, so it kind of makes sense that I'm so interested in food.
[00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:09.680] But I was interested in it long before I could actually eat any of the food.
[00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:14.640] Okay, you're interested in it from a hypothetical anthropological point of view.
[00:08:14.640 --> 00:08:20.560] Yes, so growing up with foodies, we were always going to nice restaurants only for me to then order the blandest dish on the menu.
[00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:31.200] Always seeing my dad in the kitchen cooking interesting dishes that I would then not be able to eat, always watching cooking shows, knowing that all of these lovely-looking dishes that were prepared were things that I wouldn't be able to eat.
[00:08:31.200 --> 00:08:34.640] That would be something that looks lovely but is just not something I could eat.
[00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:37.440] Is that one of the rare things that all three of us are into?
[00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:39.360] Is that we all quite like cooking?
[00:08:39.680 --> 00:08:40.640] I've learned to like cook.
[00:08:40.640 --> 00:08:41.440] I'm not into cooking.
[00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:47.120] I think I like cooking the things I like to cook, but I don't like how to describe it.
[00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:50.320] You don't like cooking everyday food, you like cooking a special dish every now and then?
[00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:51.120] Yeah, exactly.
[00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:59.200] I mean, I don't get a kick out of being in the kitchen every single day and making all the food and things like that, but I like to be able to go, I'm going to try this thing and I'll do this interesting thing here.
[00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:04.680] But I think that's just something I've learned to enjoy rather than actively enjoyed because it has to be done.
[00:09:04.680 --> 00:09:06.920] And I do a lot of the cooking in our house.
[00:08:59.920 --> 00:09:07.080] Yeah.
[00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:08.280] I really love cooking.
[00:09:08.840 --> 00:09:11.240] I do almost all of the cooking when I'm at home as well.
[00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:15.080] And something I really the other day I made carbonara for the first time.
[00:09:15.320 --> 00:09:15.640] Okay.
[00:09:15.880 --> 00:09:17.080] Did you make your own pasta?
[00:09:17.080 --> 00:09:18.280] I have made my own pasta.
[00:09:18.280 --> 00:09:19.480] I did not for the carbonara.
[00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:22.120] I used store-bought pasta, like some sort of Philistine stuff.
[00:09:22.280 --> 00:09:22.760] Disgusting.
[00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:30.120] But I did make it properly with like pancetta and eggs and parmesan and no cream.
[00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:35.160] No cream, which is the big thing that everyone puts cream in Carbonara and you're not meant to put cream in Carbonara.
[00:09:35.160 --> 00:09:37.640] And if you're not careful, you can accidentally scramble the eggs.
[00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:40.520] I think when I tried it once, I slightly scrambled the eggs.
[00:09:40.760 --> 00:09:42.760] It wasn't too bad, but I made two portions.
[00:09:42.760 --> 00:09:46.600] Well, I made three portions, but I made there were two portions, one for me, one for Lana.
[00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:50.360] And Lana's one was fine, and mine was just on the turn of scrambling.
[00:09:50.680 --> 00:09:52.120] And so I was like, okay, I'll have that one.
[00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:53.960] And she thinks I've made a fucking brilliant dinner.
[00:09:53.960 --> 00:09:54.760] There we go.
[00:09:54.760 --> 00:10:00.680] Because you like to cook and you like to cook Italian food and stuff, but you also don't drink, you don't go near alcohol personally.
[00:10:00.680 --> 00:10:07.880] Is there ever part of you that wants to cook with white wine, given that all the alcohol cooks off and there's just flavour of white wine flavoured in a sauce?
[00:10:07.880 --> 00:10:09.320] I'm never persuaded that it cooks off.
[00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:11.800] It doesn't all, I don't think it does all cook off.
[00:10:11.800 --> 00:10:21.640] I think that's just suspicious of if you're observant of like avoiding alcohol entirely, you shouldn't really cook with alcohol because you it it doesn't cook off enough.
[00:10:21.640 --> 00:10:28.520] So quite often when I do, if I'm making a ragu, I'll usually just use a bit of extra stock instead of using the red wine.
[00:10:28.520 --> 00:10:38.360] Or when I did Coco Van the other day, I used cranberry juice instead of the red wine for that red wine kind of slight sweetness bit.
[00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:42.520] But obviously, with a a cranberry juice, it's not quite as sweet as if you'd use another fruit juice.
[00:10:42.520 --> 00:10:44.200] It's it's got a little bit of bitterness about it.
[00:10:44.280 --> 00:10:46.880] Yeah, yeah, that's what I do.
[00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:48.080] We enjoy cooking.
[00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:49.200] It's a Patreon bonus.
[00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:51.200] We'll do like the three of us could get together.
[00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:52.720] We're going to go to the kitchen.
[00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:56.480] We're just stereotyped.
[00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:58.240] We just never told anyone.
[00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:03.200] So, when I was growing up, people didn't know about ARFID.
[00:11:03.280 --> 00:11:08.640] If your child didn't eat, you either force them to eat, which was tried for a while, or you let them eat what they want.
[00:11:08.640 --> 00:11:12.160] So, by the time I was in high school, I was feeding myself pretty much.
[00:11:12.160 --> 00:11:18.320] Usually, I'd eat plain pasta with butter, white toast, or microwave jacket potatoes with butter, but without the skin.
[00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:24.640] I can't exactly remember at what point I took over doing the majority of the cooking in my adult household.
[00:11:24.640 --> 00:11:30.400] I think it's probably when I was recovering from depression, hadn't been eating properly for a long time, and I'd lost quite a bit of weight.
[00:11:30.400 --> 00:11:39.680] So, I think I started to cook simple, interesting things that were more enjoyable than basic meals in an effort to encourage myself to eat a proper meal.
[00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:44.320] And because I'd always been interested in food, I kind of had an idea of the sort of things I might like.
[00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:47.920] So, I started following recipes but making adaptions for the things that I couldn't eat.
[00:11:47.920 --> 00:11:55.440] So, I'm still very good at making those either swaps or just cooking things differently to suit the textured needs that I have.
[00:11:55.760 --> 00:12:03.200] That control of being able to prepare food for myself gave me that control that really then helped me to add more and more things to my diet.
[00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:05.440] I could cook things the way that I thought I might like them.
[00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:11.840] I could disguise ingredients and dishes until I practiced with the flavor and texture enough to feel ready to reduce the disguise.
[00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:12.480] Okay, yeah, yeah.
[00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:16.400] Which is one trick that I've used to learn to eat certain foods.
[00:12:16.400 --> 00:12:25.280] And now, I, as I say, I kind of have this knowledge of what things I like and what things I just not interested in, things that I just don't enjoy.
[00:12:25.280 --> 00:12:31.080] So, I now know that all the ingredients I love most pretty much are ones that lend themselves really well to Turkish cuisine.
[00:12:29.920 --> 00:12:33.640] I love aubergine, I love bell peppers, I love bulguet.
[00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:37.720] Bulgarweet's so tasty, like we don't eat it anywhere near enough in this country.
[00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:39.320] It's like really tasty.
[00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:42.440] So I got back from holiday and the first thing I wanted to do was cook.
[00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:50.520] So this morning I cooked Menemen, which is a Turkish egg dish that works better for me than Shakshuka because it has a slightly different tomato ratio.
[00:12:50.520 --> 00:12:53.080] Shakshuka is mostly tomatoes.
[00:12:53.080 --> 00:12:54.840] So I knew I wanted to make Menemen.
[00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:59.240] I've made it before, but I knew that the last time I made it, it wasn't quite right.
[00:12:59.560 --> 00:13:08.120] So I picked up my phone to look for a recipe that would be suitable for my taste, found a few I like, skimmed through them and then went to the kitchen and just did it based on vibes.
[00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:14.600] When you say skim through them, did you have to skim through the extensive personal essay that starts every single recipe?
[00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:16.200] Because it's the least interesting.
[00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:17.800] It's a thing I was saying to Nicola.
[00:13:17.800 --> 00:13:22.200] Nicola, when we're driving, Nicola is often the one giving directions, especially when my satnabs on the blink.
[00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:26.440] And I was saying that Nicola doesn't just do the left here, right here, straight on.
[00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:30.520] She does the, okay, so I think the thing we should probably be looking to do round about here.
[00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:34.680] I'm like, don't do the recipe thing of give me a life story about the first time you're going to cut.
[00:13:34.680 --> 00:13:36.040] I just need one of three words.
[00:13:36.040 --> 00:13:38.840] The only words I need are left, right, or straight on.
[00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:40.680] Everything else is just skimmed to the end.
[00:13:41.160 --> 00:13:42.520] It's the same with recipes.
[00:13:42.520 --> 00:13:44.360] Yes, that is a thing that happens on recipes.
[00:13:44.360 --> 00:13:46.040] I don't begrudge bloggers doing that.
[00:13:46.040 --> 00:13:47.720] I don't think there is necessary anymore.
[00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:57.160] But in the old days, like when blogging was a thing, like when you could have a blog and be a blogger and that be a lifestyle thing you could do, which isn't really anymore.
[00:13:57.160 --> 00:14:03.800] You can be like a vlogger, you can be an influencer, but blogging doesn't really exist as a thing anymore.
[00:14:03.800 --> 00:14:09.400] But like in those days, you had to write those things for your like loyal followers.
[00:14:09.400 --> 00:14:13.200] And at least now we have the like jump to recipe button that is really useful.
[00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:16.400] And you can just, you know, you need to scroll into the bottom, you can ignore most of it.
[00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:18.080] So I think it's like a hangover from that.
[00:14:18.400 --> 00:14:25.280] And I know from because my auntie used to do it a little bit, that that was really important for maintaining engagement.
[00:14:25.280 --> 00:14:28.240] And then people who are just looking for recipes complain about it.
[00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:30.080] But it's like, I don't even want to be doing it.
[00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:32.240] I just have to do it to get the engagement that I want.
[00:14:32.640 --> 00:14:34.000] The internet's always been a bad.
[00:14:34.160 --> 00:14:35.600] It's always been a mistake.
[00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:37.680] So I don't think it's the fault of the bloggers.
[00:14:37.680 --> 00:14:39.120] I think it's the fault of the system.
[00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:41.040] It's still partly their fault.
[00:14:41.040 --> 00:14:42.880] The system's built on them.
[00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:49.040] So, but of course, I then, having looked at loads of recipes, I don't look, it wasn't looking at the recipe when I was in the kitchen.
[00:14:49.040 --> 00:14:53.600] I was just like, having read a few of them, it had gone into my brain and I was just figuring out what would work.
[00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:56.240] Long story short, you're now a trad wife.
[00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:01.840] So I cooked Manaman this morning.
[00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:03.520] Came out alright, better than last time.
[00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:05.520] It's probably a few things that I'd tweak for next time.
[00:15:05.520 --> 00:15:11.600] But really, I think this is the old-fashioned way of cooking and coming up with ideas for new recipes.
[00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:16.640] As far as I can see, there are two ways that younger people find ideas of things to cook these days.
[00:15:16.640 --> 00:15:18.720] Like, it's changed quite significantly.
[00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:25.200] Millennials like me like meal kits, they learn how to cook and they find recipes through meal kits.
[00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:39.680] Once you get to that point of having a little bit more disposable income, you've got a more reliable job, you can't afford to buy a house, so you're spending your disposable income on other things that bring you joy, then it can be an easy way to get recipes and pre-portioned ingredients sent to you so that you don't have to think about it.
[00:15:39.680 --> 00:15:42.960] But you can also learn the step-by-step way to cook those recipes.
[00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:45.360] I've used them a bit and I find it useful for business ideas.
[00:15:45.680 --> 00:15:47.440] Have we taken ads and we haven't agreed?
[00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:49.280] We're doing horsebread ads and we didn't agree.
[00:15:49.520 --> 00:15:51.040] We had a meeting when you were away, mate.
[00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:53.200] Don't worry about it.
[00:15:53.520 --> 00:15:57.200] And the step-by-step guys will often then teach you some useful techniques as well.
[00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:03.960] So there's a lot of people in my kind of demographic who use meal kits to learn how to cook and to find ideas for new recipes.
[00:16:04.280 --> 00:16:11.000] But according to an article in the Washington Post earlier this year, the place for finding recipes now is social media.
[00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:13.080] And I certainly see this quite a bit.
[00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:22.840] I follow a few cooking-related profiles on Instagram, and it can be a useful place to see the structure of a recipe and the finished product and what the finished product actually looks like and how tasty it looks.
[00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:25.320] You use a lot of cooking videos, don't you?
[00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:35.640] Not necessarily through Instagram, but being able to see the steps, see what you're making, see how it's supposed to look at each step as well, which can be useful for people learning how to cook something.
[00:16:35.640 --> 00:16:52.840] And quite often you get a kind of here's a simple five-ingredient recipe, which just immediately that initial thing says, oh, this is going to be really simple and really achievable for me to go in and do it because it's just a five-ingredient recipe, which makes it feel very accessible and like that's something I can achieve.
[00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:53.960] That's something I can do.
[00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:55.160] So that's exactly it.
[00:16:55.160 --> 00:16:58.040] So now, obviously, people are moving towards TikTok.
[00:16:58.040 --> 00:17:08.920] And this Washington Post article explains that that means that people are exposed to those micro trends that we see in TikTok where a new trending recipe is trending for a while and people are, what's it called?
[00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:12.200] Where you remix off somebody else's content stitching.
[00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:14.600] Stitching or duetting for the two terms.
[00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:26.760] So where you're taking a recipe and building on that recipe, then those trending recipes just kind of become completely viral.
[00:17:27.080 --> 00:17:38.600] But also, because of the nature of TikTok and that really extremely short form content, it means that the dishes that are trending are often super paired back and really simple to make.
[00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:44.880] You can only get across the really key techniques for every recipe, so those are the ones that are communicated.
[00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.640] You're not communicating all the kind of, I mean, it sounds like you would love it, Marsh.
[00:17:49.040 --> 00:17:50.320] There's no like life story.
[00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:57.360] It is entirely get to the point of what ingredients you need, how to make it, and the key piece of information.
[00:17:57.360 --> 00:18:02.960] So, like almost every recipe, I think there's usually one thing of like, as long as you do this, it's not going to go too wrong.
[00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:09.360] It might be like cook the onions for a bit longer than you think, or put in way more paprika than you think is possibly possible for it.
[00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:16.160] There's always something that is just the key piece of information that can make or break that dish, and that's the bit that gets communicated.
[00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:26.400] And it means that people get to learn the cooking basics, but they can also see it a recipe as approachable and sometimes how simple that cooking can be, exactly like you say, Mike.
[00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:31.840] And it makes it way more accessible for people who have maybe felt intimidated by cooking in the past.
[00:18:31.840 --> 00:18:33.520] It's exactly why I made a Carbonara.
[00:18:33.520 --> 00:18:35.600] Everyone always said, Carbonara, you fuck it up.
[00:18:35.600 --> 00:18:37.280] You will fuck up a Carbonara.
[00:18:37.280 --> 00:18:42.560] And then when I found a recipe and it was a video recipe on TikTok that said, is that to make a Carbonara?
[00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:43.920] I was like, I could fucking do that.
[00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:44.720] I could definitely do that.
[00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:45.520] I'm going to give that a bash.
[00:18:45.520 --> 00:18:46.480] I'm going to try it.
[00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:47.760] And I did, and it was nice.
[00:18:47.760 --> 00:18:48.400] I enjoyed it.
[00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:49.120] It's good.
[00:18:49.120 --> 00:18:52.640] And it means you see those points at which you can fail at a dish.
[00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:55.600] Like, it's not just following step by step and having to decide.
[00:18:55.600 --> 00:18:57.440] I hate video recipes.
[00:18:57.440 --> 00:18:59.520] I find them really frustrating.
[00:18:59.520 --> 00:19:07.760] But I would watch a few video recipes if they were short, like on TikTok, just to get the feeling of how to make a thing and then go and look at a written recipe.
[00:19:07.760 --> 00:19:22.800] But in a written recipe, it could be hard to pull out that key piece of information that you might skim over the bit that says keep your pan cool because you might scramble the eggs or skim over the bit in a Hollandaise that says, Really do genuinely add the eggs to the butter really very slowly.
[00:19:23.040 --> 00:19:25.680] Yeah, whack them all in and ruin everything.
[00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:30.000] So, it can be useful for really highlighting the key, the key piece of information.
[00:19:30.280 --> 00:19:39.400] But, of course, once you're looking at cooking content on social media, you're inevitably going to start seeing a lot of marketing for the items that you might want to use for cooking.
[00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:43.240] And especially, you're going to see this if you're on TikTok because of the TikTok shop.
[00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:47.560] Which brings me very circuitously to the topic that I want to talk to you about.
[00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:49.960] 20 minutes in, it's fine.
[00:19:50.280 --> 00:19:52.120] It's been a while since we've all got together.
[00:19:52.120 --> 00:19:53.640] There's lots of rambling to do.
[00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:56.600] So, late last year, I bought myself a new pan.
[00:19:56.600 --> 00:19:57.960] It was quite an expensive pan.
[00:19:57.960 --> 00:19:59.880] It's one that retails at like £125.
[00:19:59.880 --> 00:20:03.000] I didn't pay £125, but it's always on offer, so I've got it on offer.
[00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:05.880] But I've been thinking about buying this pan for like a year and a half.
[00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:10.920] And I kept looking at it, and I kept looking at other pans and looking at reviews and making comparisons.
[00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:19.880] But honestly, part of the reason I spent so long thinking about buying this pan was because the pan I ended up choosing was a pan that is very popular on social media.
[00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:21.880] Why is a pan popular on social media?
[00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:24.280] What world are we in where there is a popular pan?
[00:20:24.280 --> 00:20:26.120] Because of the Instagram aesthetic.
[00:20:26.120 --> 00:20:27.560] Because it's a beautiful pan.
[00:20:27.560 --> 00:20:29.320] It is a very beautiful pan.
[00:20:29.320 --> 00:20:41.800] But also, it's a multifunctional pan, so it's got like a basket that you can put in it for steaming vegetables and all these different like things that make it more suitable for people with smaller living spaces and blah blah blah.
[00:20:42.120 --> 00:20:47.400] And I wanted to be sure that I hadn't been social media influenced into buying this pan.
[00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:48.680] Okay, so you read the reviews.
[00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:50.840] That wasn't actually useful for me.
[00:20:50.840 --> 00:20:56.840] I wanted to spend time actually thinking about it and going away from thinking about it and looking at different pan options.
[00:20:56.840 --> 00:21:01.160] There are a lot of pan options and reading different insights on it, blah, blah, blah.
[00:21:01.160 --> 00:21:05.960] And I wanted to be sure that I wasn't just like sucked in because it's pretty and it's all over social media.
[00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:11.560] Which can happen even if you're trying very hard for it to not happen because social media is so pervasive.
[00:21:11.560 --> 00:21:17.200] You just see things out the corner of your eye that you don't even realize you've seen, and suddenly you've been influenced into buying something.
[00:21:14.840 --> 00:21:21.440] My new pan is beautiful and useful, and I really enjoy cooking with it.
[00:21:21.760 --> 00:21:28.400] And mostly the sort of material that I come across in Instagram for this pan is that it's beautiful and useful.
[00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:32.160] But over on TikTok, there are a lot more scaremongering sorts of messages.
[00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:37.440] And to be fair, I'm sure you'll find these on Instagram as well, but not the parts of Instagram that the algorithm serves to me.
[00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:41.600] You'll find scaremongering videos talking about how toxic non-stick pans are.
[00:21:41.600 --> 00:21:44.240] Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, like the T-file type stuff.
[00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:45.040] Yes.
[00:21:45.040 --> 00:21:58.640] And the pan that I've bought is what claims to be a non-toxic, non-stick ceramic pan that is not coated with these awful things that most awful non-stick pans are called.
[00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:00.080] PFAs or whatever.
[00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:07.520] So most non-stick pans these days are made using per and polyfluoroalkyl substances or PFAS.
[00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:20.480] The first of these substances that was first discovered was polytetrafluoroethylene, also known as PFTE, which was discovered by accident in the late 1930s by a chemist working for DuPont.
[00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:23.920] It feels like people discover stuff by accident less often than they used to.
[00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:25.680] That's because we've discovered a lot of the things.
[00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:27.600] We've tripped over all the obvious stuff.
[00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:29.760] Yeah, okay, makes sense.
[00:22:30.080 --> 00:22:40.880] By the mid-1950s, with some things happening in between, I've never heard the Second World War ever yada, yada, yada, away so significantly.
[00:22:41.040 --> 00:22:42.320] I've never been thinking about the war.
[00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:44.160] It was discovered in the 30s.
[00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:46.080] Then in the 50s, a few things happened in between.
[00:22:46.080 --> 00:22:47.120] We don't need to get in between.
[00:22:47.600 --> 00:22:54.640] A few things in relation to the chemical steps, not in relation to just world politics.
[00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:57.760] I wasn't even thinking about the war.
[00:22:57.760 --> 00:23:05.800] I should have done because this thing's this stuff's used in protecting pipes and things from the materials we use to make the atomic bomb.
[00:23:05.800 --> 00:23:06.120] Right.
[00:22:59.840 --> 00:23:06.600] Yeah.
[00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:18.440] So by the 1950s, mid-1950s, husband and wife team realized the value of this material on cookware because the substance is chemically inert, so it doesn't react to things.
[00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:22.360] It's hydrophobic, so it repels water, and it has a pretty high heat tolerance.
[00:23:22.360 --> 00:23:26.040] So perfect for a non-stick cooking surface on cookware.
[00:23:26.040 --> 00:23:33.880] But it's also useful for coating the surfaces of containers or pipes for reactive chemicals because it won't be corroded if you put something corrosive against it.
[00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:40.280] These days, PFAS, the family of chemicals that PFTE belongs to, are used in all sorts of things.
[00:23:40.280 --> 00:23:48.200] They're used in waterproof fabric, most famously Gore-Tex, mobile phone screens, wall paint, electrical wire insulation, and carpets.
[00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:49.400] All things that make sense, right?
[00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:54.840] Things that you want to either be water repellent or stain repellent because things don't stick to them.
[00:23:54.840 --> 00:24:03.240] But they're also used in cosmetics, including shampoos to make the hair look silkier, lots of makeup products, including waterproof mascara and nail polish and foundation.
[00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:05.400] And they're even used in contact lenses.
[00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:07.800] They're pretty much used in everything.
[00:24:08.120 --> 00:24:12.600] The main issue with PFAS is the thing that makes them so useful.
[00:24:12.600 --> 00:24:16.440] They're inert, which means they don't get broken down.
[00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:19.560] They don't react to things that would degrade other surfaces, so they don't break down.
[00:24:19.560 --> 00:24:23.720] And we haven't quite figured out a way to get rid of them, which is why we call them forever chemicals.
[00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:24.520] Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:24.840 --> 00:24:26.200] But they are inert chemicals.
[00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:30.600] So once your pan is coated, it's unlikely to flake off into your food.
[00:24:30.600 --> 00:24:33.960] They're heat resistant, so they won't degrade when used to cook.
[00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:49.360] And the advice on non-stick pans coated with PFAS, particularly PFTE, is that as long as you don't heat them past 260 degrees Celsius and you don't use metal utensils which could physically scratch the coating, then they're probably pretty safe to use.
[00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:51.280] It is a probably.
[00:24:51.280 --> 00:24:59.680] There is one PFAS that we know is likely unsafe for use, and that is perfluoro-octanoic acid or PFOA.
[00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:07.680] PFOA was first developed in the late 1940s, and by 1968, it was detected in the blood serum of consumers.
[00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:16.000] Just because something's in the blood doesn't necessarily mean it's causing any harm, and it is inert, it's probably not interacting with things too much in the body.
[00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:18.240] But it's possibly not ideal that it's there.
[00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:19.120] Sure.
[00:25:19.120 --> 00:25:24.720] But we do know that PFAS are bioaccumulative, so once it's in the body, we can't excrete it.
[00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:27.760] It just kind of starts to accumulate in the body.
[00:25:28.080 --> 00:25:30.160] So they start to build up over time.
[00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:41.760] As far as I can see, we don't have any hard evidence directly linking the presence of PFAS in the body to any physical harm, even if it accumulates to reasonably high levels.
[00:25:41.760 --> 00:25:51.600] But we do have mechanistic and association data suggesting that PFOA in particular probably almost certainly does cause certain types of harm.
[00:25:51.600 --> 00:26:00.560] And you'd think that would make sense because there has to be a level at which it's going to cause some degree of harm because you can't, you don't have infinite space within the various vessels of your body.
[00:26:01.040 --> 00:26:04.400] If there's stuff knocking about that shouldn't be there, it's going to get in the way of stuff that should be there.
[00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:15.120] And we do think it might be triggering some changes in the body as well, so that it might be causing some epigenetic changes that could then increase risk for certain diseases and conditions.
[00:26:15.120 --> 00:26:22.400] Are these the plastic chemicals that are said by some people to be hormone adjacent, or by the ones that are hormone replicant?
[00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:24.080] That they play a similar kind of role as hormones?
[00:26:24.080 --> 00:26:29.640] Because that was the stuff that Alex Jones was talking about with the chemicals in the water that turns the frogs gay.
[00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:35.160] That RF Kennedy Jr., when he was on Rogan, was also talking about all these chemicals that are in the water.
[00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:49.000] I think it was RFK, it might have been chalimines or someone, but they were talking about how, well, these chemicals, these plastic chemicals, are mimicking estrogen, which is feminizing all of our sphinel A, which is commonly on thermal paper, receipt paper.
[00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:51.960] Which we have talked about on the show before.
[00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:52.200] Yeah.
[00:26:52.520 --> 00:26:54.040] A long time ago.
[00:26:54.040 --> 00:27:01.080] But it's, yeah, this is also a forever chemical plastic coating, but it's it is different.
[00:27:01.080 --> 00:27:08.440] And I don't think none of the evidence that I've come across says much at all in the way of hormones apart from thyroid potentially.
[00:27:08.440 --> 00:27:12.520] What it's bringing to mind for me is that bit in Superman 3 where she gets to turn into a robot.
[00:27:12.840 --> 00:27:21.240] That's what I'm thinking: it builds up in your system, and eventually you just kind of turn into a big, a big Teflon lady and go and attack Superman.
[00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:22.760] I don't think I've seen Superman 3.
[00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:24.440] And I'll see you on further.
[00:27:24.440 --> 00:27:27.000] Alice definitely hasn't seen Superman 3.
[00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:28.520] Ah, Superman 3.
[00:27:28.840 --> 00:27:30.760] I don't think I've seen any Superman film ever.
[00:27:30.760 --> 00:27:32.840] Not the Christopher Eve first one.
[00:27:32.840 --> 00:27:34.920] See, that's a Patreon exclusive that we could do.
[00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:36.600] Won't make Alice watch Superman.
[00:27:36.600 --> 00:27:39.000] I've seen half of one Batman.
[00:27:39.320 --> 00:27:40.760] Any particular Batman?
[00:27:40.760 --> 00:27:42.840] The one with Maggie Gyllenhaal in it.
[00:27:42.840 --> 00:27:44.760] That's the only Batman you've seen half of.
[00:27:44.760 --> 00:27:46.360] And you've not seen any of the other Batman?
[00:27:46.520 --> 00:27:48.440] And I'll tell you why I know it was that one.
[00:27:48.760 --> 00:27:49.800] Maggie Dylholm wasn't it?
[00:27:49.800 --> 00:27:54.840] Because I spent the whole first 40 minutes saying, where do I know her from?
[00:27:54.840 --> 00:27:56.600] I'm sat watching it with my parents.
[00:27:56.600 --> 00:27:57.480] Where do I know her from?
[00:27:57.480 --> 00:27:58.520] I know her from somewhere.
[00:27:58.520 --> 00:27:59.560] Where do I know her from?
[00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:00.920] Sat with my parents.
[00:28:01.080 --> 00:28:02.520] The secretary, that's where I know her from.
[00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:06.280] This is a sexy film that I don't need my parents to think about me watching.
[00:28:07.560 --> 00:28:09.000] No, Superman 1 was alright.
[00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:10.440] And Superman 2 I thought was better.
[00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:15.280] And then Superman 3 I thought was terrible until I saw Superman 4 and then I had a new appreciation for Superman 3.
[00:28:15.280 --> 00:28:16.000] Gotcha.
[00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:18.160] I think I remember the first one, maybe the second.
[00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:20.480] I've got very little interest in Superman.
[00:28:21.360 --> 00:28:24.000] He's not particularly interesting as a superhero for my mind.
[00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:26.000] Massively overpowered, taller Boy Scout.
[00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:28.320] Yeah, but you know.
[00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:31.920] So PFOA has largely been completely phased out of use.
[00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:37.360] It's certainly not used in non-stick pans anymore, and it's highly regulated in the UK, EU, and the USA.
[00:28:37.360 --> 00:28:43.360] Although Trump has recently threatened to change the drinking water level regulations of PFAS other than PFOA.
[00:28:43.360 --> 00:28:50.640] So he's reassured people that he's not going to change the rules for PFOA, but he will for other PFFPFAs.
[00:28:51.280 --> 00:28:53.440] The problem is that it lingers.
[00:28:53.440 --> 00:29:10.960] So in the late 90s, DuPont were very famously sending their PFOA to landfill and ended up making big settlement payouts to people in the local area who were affected by health issues to themselves and to their livestock as a consequence of the large amounts of PFOA leaching into the ground and water.
[00:29:11.280 --> 00:29:17.520] Subsequently, multiple agencies have found that PFOA in particular is likely to be unsafe for humans and animals.
[00:29:17.520 --> 00:29:32.560] So the United States Environmental Protection Agency concluded in 2022 that following systematic review of over 780 human and animal health studies, they concluded that PFOA exposure elicits adverse non-cancer and cancer health effects.
[00:29:32.560 --> 00:29:42.880] Consistent with EPA's guidelines for carcinogen risk assessment, the EPA concluded that PFOA is likely to be carcinogenic to humans via the oral route of exposure.
[00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:48.800] It's weird that they list that as it has non-cancer and cancer adverse effects.
[00:29:48.800 --> 00:29:52.480] You'd think you'd say cancer and non-cancer.
[00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:54.640] It feels weird to do the not this thing.
[00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:56.640] Oh, and by the way, also that thing.
[00:29:56.720 --> 00:29:57.880] The thing that I just said not.
[00:29:57.880 --> 00:29:59.440] There's also trend with that as well.
[00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:07.560] They found that human studies, so they summarized a lot of studies and they summarized some animal studies, which I haven't focused on here.
[00:30:07.560 --> 00:30:26.680] In the human studies that they looked at, they showed a decreased vaccine response in children, decreased infant birth weight, increased serum lipids, so total cholesterol and LDL, increased blood pressure in adults, increased serum liver enzymes indicative of liver damage in adults, and kidney and testicular cancer in adults.
[00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:35.480] Meanwhile, in November 2023, the International Agency for Research on Cancer, IARC, classified PFOA as carcinogenic to humans.
[00:30:35.480 --> 00:30:39.080] So they moved it from their probably carcinogenic to carcinogenic.
[00:30:39.080 --> 00:30:40.280] So is that group one?
[00:30:40.280 --> 00:30:40.520] Yes.
[00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:41.880] They've put it into.
[00:30:42.520 --> 00:30:49.640] Other PFAS, such as PFTE, are likely much safer to use than PFOA.
[00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:52.680] But it's understandable that some people have concerns.
[00:30:52.680 --> 00:31:02.440] One of the issues is that when a chemical is as ubiquitous as PFAS chemicals are, it gets very hard to assess safety conclusively.
[00:31:02.440 --> 00:31:08.040] We can only compare presence of high levels of those chemicals to low levels of those chemicals.
[00:31:08.840 --> 00:31:10.760] We don't have a no-level baseline.
[00:31:10.760 --> 00:31:12.200] Like lead in the 80s.
[00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:16.680] That lead was everywhere, so it was very hard to find people untainted by degrees of lead.
[00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:17.720] I think, something like that.
[00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:19.720] In addition, this just never goes away.
[00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:22.440] So once it's there, it's there forever.
[00:31:22.760 --> 00:31:32.040] Regulatory bodies, of course, should continue to research these chemicals to understand the impact on human health and the environment and are continuing to do just that.
[00:31:32.040 --> 00:31:40.280] There is a lot of kind of looking more closely at PFAS chemicals just generally and looking at different ones specifically.
[00:31:40.600 --> 00:31:58.000] In the meantime, while I think scaremongering about toxic pans is probably unhelpful, and I don't think anyone needs to throw out the non-stick pans that they already own, I do think it's a reasonable decision to avoid buying a new non-stick pan because it's probably not great for the environment because of these forever chemicals.
[00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:04.560] And while they're probably safe to use, we don't have enough evidence to really know for certain long term.
[00:32:04.560 --> 00:32:08.800] So, you know, it probably doesn't hurt to be a little bit cautious.
[00:32:08.800 --> 00:32:10.720] But then, obviously, how do you cook?
[00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:18.880] Obviously, we've been cooking with non-stick for a really long time before it was invented, but it is like a million times more convenient to cook with non-stick.
[00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:25.040] And that's where these pans that claim to be non-stick while using non-PFAS materials come in.
[00:32:25.040 --> 00:32:32.640] Many of these pans claim to be ceramic, but a recent article in The Guardian points out that there's no legal definition of ceramic.
[00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:33.120] Really?
[00:32:33.120 --> 00:32:34.480] Just like vegetable.
[00:32:35.760 --> 00:32:39.040] There's no legal definition of non-toxic.
[00:32:39.360 --> 00:32:42.640] So you can put that onto your pan.
[00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:49.920] I think the ASA would have something to say if you had a PFAS pan and said it was non-toxic, even if it was PFTE and not PFOA.
[00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:50.480] Yeah, yeah.
[00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:53.920] But it's not a legally defined term.
[00:32:54.240 --> 00:33:04.480] A study published in the journal Food Additives and Contaminants says: recently, new polymeric non-stick, so-called quasi-ceramic coatings have been developed.
[00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:18.800] These new coatings contain inorganic fillers, which improve the mechanical properties of the polymers, fillers including titanium, aluminium, and silicon and clays, and they may contain micro and nanometer particles.
[00:33:19.120 --> 00:33:35.080] That study showed that it's possible for these coatings to release nanoparticles under heat or mechanical degradation, as well as when exposed to what they term simulants, which I assume but they don't explicitly state means things that are a simulation for food.
[00:33:35.080 --> 00:33:43.560] Okay, so when they heat up things that are simulating food, nanoparticles are released into that simulant.
[00:33:43.560 --> 00:33:46.360] They do say this is obviously an early study.
[00:33:46.360 --> 00:33:53.480] What we would want to do next is look when you actually cook real food, but in the first instance, they've started with these simulants.
[00:33:53.480 --> 00:34:05.080] And again, that does not mean that these coatings are unsafe, but it does mean that we're swapping one chemical coating for another chemical coating that is less well studied and that we know is going to be releasing some kind of nanoparticles.
[00:34:05.320 --> 00:34:06.440] Sure, yeah, yeah.
[00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:19.400] It might be the right swap to do, especially if these new coatings aren't forever chemicals which are potentially detrimental to the environment and are something that we can break down and remove from the environment or our bodies, but we don't know yet because they're relatively new.
[00:34:19.400 --> 00:34:22.360] But the other issue is that companies want to keep their formulas secret.
[00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:26.280] They don't want to tell you what is being used in these coatings.
[00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:35.080] The materials they use are proprietary and there's a lack of transparency on what is actually being used to make the non-stick coating, which is kind of understandable.
[00:34:35.080 --> 00:34:44.360] You understand companies wanting to protect their manufacturing processes, but at the same time, we've had a big, massive scare with the DuPont, big settlements.
[00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:48.840] I think it's something that you need to be a bit more prepared to be a bit more transparent on.
[00:34:48.840 --> 00:35:04.120] According to The Guardian, the state of Washington recently ordered quasi-ceramic producers to submit their non-stick ingredients to the state's ecology department as it attempts to learn which chemicals cookware companies are using to replace Teflon or other PFAS or forever chemicals.
[00:35:05.080 --> 00:35:16.240] So swapping to non-non-stick might be the answer, but I think cooking services are always going to impact the foods that we eat from those services.
[00:35:16.240 --> 00:35:20.000] So it might be very easy to just say, okay, well, I'm not going to use, I'm not going to use non-stick.
[00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:21.760] I'm not going to use the ceramic non-stick.
[00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:24.480] I'm going to use just traditional old-style pans.
[00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:28.240] Yeah, with beef tallow, yeah.
[00:35:28.560 --> 00:35:32.080] But obviously, anything we cook from is going to impact the food in some way.
[00:35:32.080 --> 00:35:36.880] And in fact, we know this because for people with anemia, that can be a good thing.
[00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:46.240] For people who have low iron levels in their blood, one recommendation is to cook with cast iron cookware because the iron leaches into your food and you get a boost.
[00:35:46.240 --> 00:35:50.000] And you can even buy little iron fish to put in your pot when you're cooking.
[00:35:50.080 --> 00:35:50.560] You can't see in the middle.
[00:35:50.640 --> 00:35:55.840] When you're cooking in dishes, so that it's a big casserole or something, you can throw your little iron fish in.
[00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:58.800] It's incredibly expensive in the roughly.
[00:35:59.200 --> 00:36:02.800] You just fish it out again afterwards, otherwise you're going to break your teeth.
[00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:04.240] Why is it a fish?
[00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:05.520] Laugh.
[00:36:05.520 --> 00:36:06.320] Okay, fair enough.
[00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:14.000] But try and have something that is non-edible, not in the shape of foodstuffs.
[00:36:15.040 --> 00:36:17.280] It's just a little tiny cartoon fish.
[00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:19.200] It could have been a little bit of white bait or something.
[00:36:20.240 --> 00:36:21.280] A little sardine.
[00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:23.360] And you will break your teeth too in one.
[00:36:23.680 --> 00:36:27.840] Ultimately, I just think it's one of those topics that's full of so many layers of context.
[00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:35.760] I don't think we can buy any coated or uncoated pan for that matter and be 100% confident that it's 100% safe.
[00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:39.520] But I also don't think feeling fearful around the way we cook is helpful for anyone.
[00:36:39.520 --> 00:36:42.640] So I will still be using my quasi-ceramic coated pan.
[00:36:42.640 --> 00:36:46.880] I'll also still be using my old traditional non-stick pans and my cast iron griddle pan.
[00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:52.720] I might, next time I buy a pan, see where we're up to on the data and what's changed in the meantime.
[00:36:52.720 --> 00:36:54.640] And maybe I'll make a different decision.
[00:36:54.640 --> 00:36:57.680] But for now, I think that's all we can do when it comes to the decisions we make.
[00:36:57.680 --> 00:37:03.320] And it's true for, you know, for lots of decisions we make, sometimes we just have to accept that there is no perfect decision.
[00:37:03.640 --> 00:37:10.040] But the best thing we can do is avoid the scaremongering and being pushed into decisions based on that scaremongering.
[00:37:13.880 --> 00:37:16.200] So I've just got back from Holder.
[00:37:16.200 --> 00:37:18.520] Alice, you got back from Paldir as well.
[00:37:18.520 --> 00:37:22.440] We went to Barcelona together with the pub group.
[00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:23.400] Including Matty.
[00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:25.720] Including Matty, who we very deliberately didn't reference last time.
[00:37:25.720 --> 00:37:30.360] I know we felt very, very bad that we could play the cruel tour by naming everyone else other than Matty.
[00:37:31.160 --> 00:37:32.600] Which is a personal joke.
[00:37:32.600 --> 00:37:33.640] Only for Matty's best friend.
[00:37:33.880 --> 00:37:38.600] Only for Matty and several other people around Matty and that he's never got to mention on the show.
[00:37:39.560 --> 00:37:41.160] Despite being a very good friend of ours.
[00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:45.000] A good friend of ours and heavily involved in an awful lot of things that we do.
[00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:47.560] No, we had a really lovely time in Barcelona.
[00:37:47.560 --> 00:37:55.000] We went to this one restaurant that I don't think he was anticipating a group of our size.
[00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:56.200] It was very odd, wasn't it?
[00:37:56.200 --> 00:37:57.560] Because we'd been wandering around.
[00:37:57.560 --> 00:38:00.920] We've been wandering around the old town and we were having a lovely time.
[00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:05.800] And then we got to a point where we're like, shit, we've got dinner booked for whatever time it was, like nine o'clock or something.
[00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:07.080] It was quite a late dinner day.
[00:38:07.080 --> 00:38:09.320] But it was like three o'clock and we're like, well, we need lunch.
[00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:10.920] We can't go until nine without eating.
[00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:13.000] But if we eat much later, then we're going to spoil our tea.
[00:38:13.080 --> 00:38:13.720] It could be a problem.
[00:38:13.720 --> 00:38:17.720] So we're suddenly desperately looking for somewhere to eat and there's like 10 of us.
[00:38:17.720 --> 00:38:18.040] Yeah.
[00:38:18.040 --> 00:38:20.680] Well, no, there was about six of us to start off with and they just kept.
[00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:22.200] Just kept accumulating more and more people.
[00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:23.320] They kept getting more and more.
[00:38:23.480 --> 00:38:26.440] So we walked into this one restaurant that she was like, there's no way we can see you.
[00:38:26.440 --> 00:38:31.720] So we looked back across the footpath and there's another restaurant and we're like, well, it'll do.
[00:38:31.720 --> 00:38:33.080] And we went in there.
[00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:34.600] Is that the name of the restaurant?
[00:38:34.600 --> 00:38:36.280] It might as well have been called It'll Do.
[00:38:36.680 --> 00:38:37.160] It was nice.
[00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:39.240] It was lovely, and the guy running it was lovely.
[00:38:39.240 --> 00:38:40.440] He was very sweet.
[00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:46.320] He was determined that you'd ordered the wrong thing, and he went out of his way to correct you on your particular order.
[00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:53.840] One of my favorite restaurant experiences because I think he was just being really lovely, but you could totally take it as being really passive-aggressive.
[00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:54.240] Yes.
[00:38:54.240 --> 00:38:58.080] Because what he did was, I ordered, I didn't want too much to eat.
[00:38:58.080 --> 00:38:58.400] Yeah.
[00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:05.520] So I'd ordered some bread and then one of two dips that were on the menu to go with the bread, like a yogurty, garlicky dip.
[00:39:05.680 --> 00:39:13.520] And he was like, Look, you must, you're really supposed to order this and the tomatoey dip together because that's how it's supposed to be eaten.
[00:39:13.520 --> 00:39:17.920] And you put the bread and then you put the yogurt on top and then you put the spicy tomatoey dip on top of that.
[00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:20.400] And I was like, sure, but I don't want that.
[00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:24.480] And I'm not going to explain it to this guy, but like for me, that's because that's very risky.
[00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:28.000] If it's a raw tomato-based dip, it could be too tomatoey.
[00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:29.920] It could have big chunks of onion in it.
[00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:32.000] It could have big chunks of raw onion in it.
[00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:33.120] I could struggle to eat it.
[00:39:33.120 --> 00:39:34.160] I just don't want to take the risk.
[00:39:34.160 --> 00:39:36.640] It's just easier to go for the garlic yogurt thing.
[00:39:36.640 --> 00:39:38.160] And he's like, no, you really must have it.
[00:39:38.160 --> 00:39:39.440] And I was like, look, it's fine.
[00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:40.880] I'm just going to have it this way.
[00:39:41.200 --> 00:39:49.200] And when he came with the food, he brought me a little bowl of the spicy tomato dip, which was lovely, but it was still risky.
[00:39:49.200 --> 00:39:50.240] I still didn't want to order it.
[00:39:50.640 --> 00:39:54.160] And I think, didn't he bring it by basically saying, in case you realize you were wrong or something?
[00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:59.840] He was like, I just, I really want you to taste it because I think you'll realize you were like, no, he didn't say it.
[00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:02.000] I think you'll realize you were wrong, but he was like, I really want you to taste it.
[00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:09.840] Since you're the only lady with a table of boys, because it was just me and like eight other bloats at that point before Kat arrived.
[00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:19.840] And then he came back a moment later with a plate of like eight rounds of bread, seven rounds of bread, because he recognized that David had said he was gluten-free.
[00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:35.960] Yes, so he very compassionately brought seven rounds of bread with some yogurt on each one and the spicy dip on each one and gave one piece to every person at the table as if to go, Look, not only am I going to prove to you that you're wrong, I'm going to prove to this entire table of people that you were wrong.
[00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:36.840] It was very strange.
[00:40:37.080 --> 00:40:37.720] I also ordered.
[00:40:37.960 --> 00:40:46.680] I think he was trying to be really sweet and he was just really excited for us to try his food because he then later brought out a dish of salmon tatar and not tatar, what's it called?
[00:40:46.680 --> 00:40:47.480] The cappacho.
[00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:48.360] Capaccio.
[00:40:48.680 --> 00:40:53.640] And various he just kept bringing us little dishes for the things he was very, very nice.
[00:40:53.640 --> 00:41:00.600] But I ordered like the classic potato and egg kind of dish and I was in Spain, but obviously you're in Barcelona.
[00:41:00.600 --> 00:41:00.760] Yes.
[00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:05.080] And they speak Catalan in Barcelona because it's a very specific Catalan independence movement.
[00:41:05.080 --> 00:41:13.640] I've realized between going to Catalan and going to Croatia, I'm on board for pretty much every independence movement other than the UK's because the UK was already fucking independent.
[00:41:13.640 --> 00:41:13.880] Yeah.
[00:41:13.880 --> 00:41:16.520] They're like, take me anywhere and immediately in on their story.
[00:41:16.520 --> 00:41:18.360] Like, yeah, secede from Spain.
[00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:19.880] Catalan independent.
[00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:22.280] Croatia, yes, fight the Yugoslavian war.
[00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:23.080] I can't help myself.
[00:41:23.080 --> 00:41:24.760] I don't know why, but I get kind of caught up in it.
[00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:26.040] So I thought, well, I'll do the nice thing.
[00:41:26.040 --> 00:41:29.080] Like, you order and you try and use Catalan wherever you can.
[00:41:29.080 --> 00:41:30.440] And then it really sort of validates.
[00:41:30.520 --> 00:41:33.800] It's good to validate that you recognize them as an independent state.
[00:41:33.800 --> 00:41:40.920] I ordered my egg and potato dish in Catalan, and he looked at me confused and said, In this restaurant, we speak Spanish.
[00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:45.320] I'd stumbled onto like the most political tortilla of my life.
[00:41:47.800 --> 00:41:49.960] So yeah, I got in his bad books.
[00:41:49.960 --> 00:41:51.640] And he then took it out on you.
[00:41:51.640 --> 00:41:55.080] Well, then at this point, more and more of us are arriving and ordering more food.
[00:41:55.080 --> 00:42:07.480] And like we were one of the that particular meal, we were one of those annoying groups of tables just because people kept arriving and then ordering, and then every time they brought something over, somebody else would be like, oh, well, I've got you, could I order this?
[00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:08.680] And so they were just constantly bringing us.
[00:42:09.080 --> 00:42:11.320] So, we'd grown into this massive table.
[00:42:11.320 --> 00:42:12.760] They're being delightful with us.
[00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:18.160] They're like, Matty had asked at one point, Oh, I'd love to try like a local Matty David's friend, right?
[00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:21.200] Yes, I'd love to try like a local spirit.
[00:42:21.200 --> 00:42:22.160] What do you recommend?
[00:42:22.160 --> 00:42:30.800] And he gave him the local spirit that he recommended, and then he came back, he said, This is just from me, and gave him a different local spirit because he was like chuffed that we were.
[00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:32.960] So, they were really delightful with us.
[00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:38.960] But as he's the guy who's running the place clears the plates, he tries to convince us to order something else.
[00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:41.360] And he's like, Oh, we've got you know desserts and we'll recommend this.
[00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:49.840] And then he says, Oh, we've got creme de Catalan, which I'd wanted to order at some point while we were there because I love creme brulee and it's basically creme brulee.
[00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:52.160] Yeah, so I was like, Fine, I'll order that, we'll have that.
[00:42:52.160 --> 00:42:55.920] And he brought it, it took a while, and then he brought it.
[00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:57.760] And we heard him blowtouching it as well.
[00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:05.200] Yeah, we heard the blowtouch going off as oh, there they are, blow toching the top of the creme de Catalan, like to sort of caramelize the sugar and stuff on top.
[00:43:05.200 --> 00:43:15.760] And I it came and I was like, It's a bit pasty looking, but I'm sure it tastes like the sugar hadn't been fully caramelized because it was still very kind of granular on top as well.
[00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:19.920] But he, yeah, he'd made it from scratch, he'd taken a while, he'd been rushing a bit.
[00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:23.280] It's not three triple six three shit, like you get in every restaurant here, right?
[00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:26.560] Where nobody makes their own desserts and you just buy them off the case.
[00:43:26.560 --> 00:43:30.480] You have to scroll through TikTok to find your video to teach them how to make it and everything, yeah.
[00:43:30.640 --> 00:43:32.560] To get through all the way through the story.
[00:43:32.560 --> 00:43:35.840] So, when I was growing in Catalan, we spoke Spanish in Catalan.
[00:43:36.080 --> 00:43:38.080] Get to the recipe, get to the recipe.
[00:43:38.080 --> 00:43:44.080] So, Eagle takes a bite and is like, Tastes like salt.
[00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:46.160] I was like, That's a bit weird.
[00:43:46.160 --> 00:43:48.880] And so, I tasted it, it does taste quite salty.
[00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:51.200] And then I took just the white stuff on it.
[00:43:51.200 --> 00:43:53.360] I was like, No, that is salt.
[00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:57.320] And I was like, It is supposed to be sugar, though, because it's blowtop.
[00:43:57.200 --> 00:43:58.640] Like, like it's supposed to be sugar, right?
[00:43:58.640 --> 00:44:02.120] So, David asks him, it's supposed to be sugar on top, right?
[00:44:02.120 --> 00:44:04.040] And he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, we cooked the sugar.
[00:43:59.600 --> 00:44:05.800] I was like, it's salt.
[00:44:06.200 --> 00:44:07.640] And he's like, no, no, no, not salt.
[00:44:07.640 --> 00:44:08.040] It's sugar.
[00:44:08.040 --> 00:44:08.520] It's sugar.
[00:44:08.520 --> 00:44:09.560] And like, no, no.
[00:44:10.200 --> 00:44:11.160] Oh, no.
[00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:13.640] And he should have got it off the truck.
[00:44:13.640 --> 00:44:14.040] Should have done.
[00:44:14.440 --> 00:44:15.880] He burst out laughing.
[00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:18.520] He's cackling, realizing he's just fucked up.
[00:44:18.520 --> 00:44:22.120] You know, you see people do like the face palm drag down their face.
[00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:26.280] He did a proper one of those, like one of the biggest one I've ever seen in reality.
[00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:28.920] So he went off and made us some proper crowned claflands.
[00:44:29.240 --> 00:44:33.240] They were lovely, but it was the weirdest restaurant experience.
[00:44:33.720 --> 00:44:35.480] He must have been out there with his blowtorch goes.
[00:44:35.480 --> 00:44:36.120] It's not going.
[00:44:36.120 --> 00:44:37.560] Why is it not fucking going?
[00:44:37.560 --> 00:44:39.560] Normally it melts faster than this.
[00:44:39.560 --> 00:44:41.160] What's the fuck's going on?
[00:44:41.160 --> 00:44:43.240] Yeah, and so I've been on that whole day.
[00:44:43.240 --> 00:44:45.000] I've also just got back for a say from Croatia.
[00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:46.200] I went to Dubrovnik.
[00:44:46.200 --> 00:44:48.840] I wasn't that big of a fan of Dubrovnik for a couple of reasons.
[00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:51.000] It's a very small city, fine.
[00:44:51.000 --> 00:44:53.400] Walled city, fort city, fine.
[00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:56.440] It's built one big straduna street through the middle.
[00:44:56.440 --> 00:45:01.880] And then every other street, you have to go up a load of steps and it's the next street on the side.
[00:45:01.880 --> 00:45:03.400] And then go up more steps and it's the next street.
[00:45:03.400 --> 00:45:07.400] So the whole town is built like an amphitheater almost.
[00:45:07.640 --> 00:45:10.680] And obviously, the place we were staying is on the furthest bit of that.
[00:45:10.680 --> 00:45:12.040] So it's constantly all up and down the steps.
[00:45:12.200 --> 00:45:13.240] That's kind of fine.
[00:45:13.240 --> 00:45:14.600] A couple of reasons it's annoying.
[00:45:14.600 --> 00:45:26.840] One reason is it's got a port, it's on all the cruise ships, which means at about nine o'clock every morning, two cruise ships arrive and 3,000 Americans, like most of the American tourists, just descend into this incredibly small walled city.
[00:45:26.840 --> 00:45:30.600] And then you're like shoulder to shoulder scuffling around, which is kind of a bit of a pain.
[00:45:30.600 --> 00:45:35.880] It also means that all the prices are jacked up through the roof because they've got such a kind of a day trade coming through.
[00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:39.000] The other thing is, Game of Thrones was filmed there.
[00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:39.400] Right.
[00:45:39.400 --> 00:45:41.560] And that's why everyone is going there.
[00:45:41.560 --> 00:45:42.920] It's not why we went there.
[00:45:42.920 --> 00:45:44.640] I fucking hated Game of Thrones.
[00:45:44.640 --> 00:45:45.680] I watched the first series.
[00:45:45.680 --> 00:45:46.720] It was like, this is amazing.
[00:45:46.720 --> 00:45:47.280] You should watch it.
[00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:48.160] I watched the entire thing.
[00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:48.720] I didn't like it.
[00:45:44.600 --> 00:45:51.360] I watched all of the other series just to prove that.
[00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:55.680] So I never had to get to a point where people said, oh, it gets better after series.
[00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:56.320] No, it doesn't.
[00:45:56.320 --> 00:45:57.520] I've watched the entire thing.
[00:45:57.520 --> 00:45:58.800] Fucking hated it all the way through.
[00:45:58.800 --> 00:45:59.760] Thank you very much.
[00:46:00.080 --> 00:46:01.360] You can't change your mind on that.
[00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:07.920] Meanwhile, last year, I went to another place that accidentally went to another place that is used for Game of Thrones filming.
[00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:10.240] But the other way around, I hadn't seen Game of Thrones at that point.
[00:46:10.240 --> 00:46:12.320] I've subsequently watched Game of Thrones.
[00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:19.440] And we went, there's this small town in Morocco that's used for some of the filming, only a very small amount of the filming.
[00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:29.200] But as Warren and I were sat watching this episode where it was filmed in that particular town, I looked at it and I went, I've been there.
[00:46:29.200 --> 00:46:30.400] I know I've been there.
[00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:34.880] And then I googled it and it was like, it is exactly where we went like a few months ago.
[00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:37.440] We went April last year that is used filming.
[00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:38.160] But that wasn't busy.
[00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:40.080] I mean, it was a bit quicker.
[00:46:40.240 --> 00:46:41.440] I haven't found out about it fully.
[00:46:42.720 --> 00:46:46.640] There were at least three official merchandise shops for Game of Thrones in the town.
[00:46:46.640 --> 00:46:49.680] You could go and sit on the Iron Throne on an island.
[00:46:49.680 --> 00:46:50.160] So we did that.
[00:46:50.160 --> 00:46:53.760] There's a picture of Nicola looking completely bored and unimpressed on an Iron Throne.
[00:46:53.760 --> 00:47:00.160] On that same island with the Iron Throne, it's overrun by wild peacocks who are not scared of anybody to a point where they'll just wander right up.
[00:47:00.160 --> 00:47:04.480] And I've got a great series of photos of peacocks wandering over to Nicola, spotting that she has a sandwich.
[00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:07.120] And Nicola said to me, I'm worried he's going to snatch my sandwich.
[00:47:07.200 --> 00:47:08.320] I was like, I'm sure it's fine.
[00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:08.960] I'm sure they're not.
[00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:09.600] They just look at it.
[00:47:11.120 --> 00:47:12.400] He fucking did go for the sandwich.
[00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:12.960] It was incredible.
[00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:16.240] It was a proper like he got the little bit of the bag, and she pulled it away.
[00:47:16.240 --> 00:47:20.560] And I've got a little picture of the seagull looking like nift in the background as he was kind of cheating.
[00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:33.480] I was surprised by that because, like, last year when Nicola and Alice and I, we went to the South Lake Safari Zoo, and as we were sitting there eating our lunch, peacocks everywhere, they were there milling around, they were quiet, they were lovely peacocks, they were brilliant.
[00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:38.840] You've managed to get the kind of dick peacock agro peacocks, it wasn't at all.
[00:47:39.240 --> 00:47:40.200] But that's true.
[00:47:40.200 --> 00:47:48.680] Like, you see seagulls in most places, and seagulls are not great birds, but in most places, they at least stay away from the humans.
[00:47:48.680 --> 00:47:54.760] You go to the seaside, and they're fucking aggro-will steal a plate of chips off a toddler.
[00:47:54.760 --> 00:47:59.160] Oh, yeah, yeah, they're worse than your dogs in terms of like targeting kids.
[00:47:59.160 --> 00:48:10.680] We did see a lot of seagulls when we went on a board trip where we had an amazing fish, and the seagulls learned to follow the board, two boards next to each other, and they would skip between the two boards in order to try and maximize their chance of getting uh getting anything.
[00:48:10.680 --> 00:48:12.520] Anyway, the rest of the time, we had a lovely trip.
[00:48:12.520 --> 00:48:14.200] We went to split in various places.
[00:48:14.200 --> 00:48:18.200] On the way back, I had possibly the worst flight experience of my life.
[00:48:18.200 --> 00:48:27.400] We were supposed to be flying back at nine o'clock, split airports, very small, but it's so hot during the day that we're like, we'll just head to the airport about half six or so.
[00:48:27.400 --> 00:48:30.840] I know it's a little bit early, but they say get there a bit earlier anyway.
[00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:35.000] And we've got to go through the stupid Brexit passport line, so you never know how long that's going to take.
[00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:39.240] So, we'll get there, we'll have a bite to eat, and then we'll get on the plane half eight.
[00:48:39.240 --> 00:48:40.280] It says boarding clauses.
[00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:42.280] So, they'll be boarding us at like eight o'clock or something.
[00:48:42.280 --> 00:48:43.480] So, it's not gonna be too bad.
[00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:45.880] The plane's delayed by 45 minutes to begin with.
[00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:46.920] That's annoying.
[00:48:46.920 --> 00:49:01.960] As we're going through security, there is a drunken Irish girl on the floor in tears before the security line, that the bit where you actually do your b

Prompt 2: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 3: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 4: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Prompt 5: Context Setup

You are an expert data extractor tasked with analyzing a podcast transcript. 
I will provide you with part 2 of 2 from a podcast transcript. 
I will then ask you to extract different types of information from this content in subsequent messages. Please confirm you have received and understood the transcript content.

Transcript section:
 not great birds, but in most places, they at least stay away from the humans.
[00:47:48.680 --> 00:47:54.760] You go to the seaside, and they're fucking aggro-will steal a plate of chips off a toddler.
[00:47:54.760 --> 00:47:59.160] Oh, yeah, yeah, they're worse than your dogs in terms of like targeting kids.
[00:47:59.160 --> 00:48:10.680] We did see a lot of seagulls when we went on a board trip where we had an amazing fish, and the seagulls learned to follow the board, two boards next to each other, and they would skip between the two boards in order to try and maximize their chance of getting uh getting anything.
[00:48:10.680 --> 00:48:12.520] Anyway, the rest of the time, we had a lovely trip.
[00:48:12.520 --> 00:48:14.200] We went to split in various places.
[00:48:14.200 --> 00:48:18.200] On the way back, I had possibly the worst flight experience of my life.
[00:48:18.200 --> 00:48:27.400] We were supposed to be flying back at nine o'clock, split airports, very small, but it's so hot during the day that we're like, we'll just head to the airport about half six or so.
[00:48:27.400 --> 00:48:30.840] I know it's a little bit early, but they say get there a bit earlier anyway.
[00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:35.000] And we've got to go through the stupid Brexit passport line, so you never know how long that's going to take.
[00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:39.240] So, we'll get there, we'll have a bite to eat, and then we'll get on the plane half eight.
[00:48:39.240 --> 00:48:40.280] It says boarding clauses.
[00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:42.280] So, they'll be boarding us at like eight o'clock or something.
[00:48:42.280 --> 00:48:43.480] So, it's not gonna be too bad.
[00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:45.880] The plane's delayed by 45 minutes to begin with.
[00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:46.920] That's annoying.
[00:48:46.920 --> 00:49:01.960] As we're going through security, there is a drunken Irish girl on the floor in tears before the security line, that the bit where you actually do your boarding pass, just on the floor, weeping, wailing, top of her lungs, real distraught.
[00:49:01.960 --> 00:49:04.360] But she's just there with the authorities around her.
[00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:05.720] I'm like, what the fuck is going on here?
[00:49:05.720 --> 00:49:07.640] And she's like, not sure what's going on.
[00:49:07.640 --> 00:49:20.800] As we get into the security line, another Irish girl who's equally drunk, wearing what appears to be lingerie, I think she just got off the beach or something, but it's like she's falling out of a very red, lacy top, and that's about all she's wearing.
[00:49:20.800 --> 00:49:23.360] It's like, fuck me, you're going to be freezing when you get back to Ireland.
[00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:31.040] She's storming away backwards along the line, yelling obscenities at the security staff for having plucked her out of the security line to go and see to her friend.
[00:49:31.040 --> 00:49:33.120] I told her she's got a fucking board in pass.
[00:49:33.120 --> 00:49:34.400] Why am I having to come and do this?
[00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:35.440] This is fucking ridiculous.
[00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:38.880] Like, don't yell obscenities at the security staff.
[00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:40.640] So, like, oh God, this is a nightmare.
[00:49:40.640 --> 00:49:42.880] Anyway, we go through, we sat in our terminal bit.
[00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:45.920] She follows us into the terminal bit because there's a flight to Dublin.
[00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:47.360] And so she's walking around there.
[00:49:47.360 --> 00:49:50.160] She's clearly like going up to the bar, buying whatever wine they've got there.
[00:49:50.160 --> 00:49:51.120] She's wandering around.
[00:49:51.120 --> 00:49:54.400] She's talking to the security staff who then rush off, try and find another of her friends.
[00:49:54.400 --> 00:49:55.360] It's this fucking drama.
[00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:58.160] And everyone's like, Jesus Christ, this is a mess.
[00:49:58.160 --> 00:50:01.120] We're like, thank fuck, she's not coming to Manchester.
[00:50:01.120 --> 00:50:02.240] We get on the plane.
[00:50:02.240 --> 00:50:03.520] We're like, I hope she's not in the mind.
[00:50:03.600 --> 00:50:04.560] We didn't see her getting in our line.
[00:50:04.560 --> 00:50:05.440] So, yeah, we're fine.
[00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:06.640] We're sat in row two.
[00:50:06.640 --> 00:50:08.080] We're like, oh, thank God for that.
[00:50:08.080 --> 00:50:11.360] We're just about to shut the door, get the last passengers on.
[00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:12.880] She walks on, sits in row one.
[00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:13.760] She sat in front of us.
[00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:15.760] Like, oh, this is bad.
[00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:17.200] And then there's a seat next to me.
[00:50:17.200 --> 00:50:23.360] And her friend, the one who was in tears on the floor, walks from the back of the plane all the way to the front and sits next to me.
[00:50:23.360 --> 00:50:24.880] I'm like, oh, this is horrible.
[00:50:24.880 --> 00:50:26.320] So this is going to be a bad flight.
[00:50:26.320 --> 00:50:31.440] But we don't take off because the cabin crew then gather around them and say, We've had a word with the pilot.
[00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:33.680] They've been a lot of people expressing concerns.
[00:50:33.920 --> 00:50:35.440] We think you're too drunk to fly.
[00:50:35.440 --> 00:50:36.480] You have to get off the plane.
[00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:37.600] You are not flying tonight.
[00:50:37.600 --> 00:50:38.480] They've deplaned them.
[00:50:38.480 --> 00:50:39.280] Deep plane them.
[00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:39.600] Wow.
[00:50:39.600 --> 00:50:40.880] And she's like, What do you mean?
[00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:42.560] You're not flying tonight.
[00:50:42.560 --> 00:50:43.040] Why is that?
[00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:43.760] You're drunk.
[00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:44.320] I'm not drunk.
[00:50:44.320 --> 00:50:45.440] I haven't had a single drink.
[00:50:46.160 --> 00:50:48.160] We saw you buying wine in the terminal.
[00:50:48.160 --> 00:50:51.200] You were drunkenly shouting at the, you should never have been able to get on the plane.
[00:50:51.200 --> 00:50:52.800] She's yelling all sorts of mess.
[00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:53.440] I'm not drunk.
[00:50:53.440 --> 00:50:56.960] It's just that earlier today, I found out my granddaughter might have cancer, actually.
[00:50:56.520 --> 00:50:59.880] Actually, it's like, I don't think this is going to persuade the pilot, to be honest.
[00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:02.280] They're saying, look, legally, we can't do it.
[00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:04.280] There's a point where they're going to have to get their bags out.
[00:51:04.280 --> 00:51:04.920] So, which one?
[00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:06.520] So, the camera crew, like, which bags are yours?
[00:50:59.600 --> 00:51:07.080] I'm not getting off.
[00:51:07.240 --> 00:51:08.200] I'm not getting off.
[00:51:08.200 --> 00:51:08.840] I'm fine.
[00:51:08.840 --> 00:51:09.720] I haven't been drinking.
[00:51:09.720 --> 00:51:10.760] I'll be good as gold.
[00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:11.880] They're like, no, which are your bags?
[00:51:11.880 --> 00:51:12.360] Which are your bags?
[00:51:12.360 --> 00:51:12.920] They won't tell us.
[00:51:12.920 --> 00:51:14.280] At which point, Nicola chimes in.
[00:51:14.520 --> 00:51:15.800] They were the blue bags, actually.
[00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:17.480] Don't do that.
[00:51:17.800 --> 00:51:20.760] So, anyway, girl in the red eventually gets dragged off.
[00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:22.920] The girl next to us is like, well, can I come with her?
[00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:24.840] Her third friend is like, I'm not getting off with you.
[00:51:24.840 --> 00:51:25.560] I've got work in the morning.
[00:51:25.720 --> 00:51:25.960] I'm staying.
[00:51:26.040 --> 00:51:26.520] I've been going home.
[00:51:26.680 --> 00:51:27.640] I'm staying here the entire time.
[00:51:27.640 --> 00:51:30.200] So the girl next to me decides she's going to get off as well.
[00:51:30.200 --> 00:51:34.280] She's now on her phone to this girl's mum, still stood up in the plane, hasn't got off.
[00:51:34.280 --> 00:51:36.280] The other ones in the doorway were still arguing.
[00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:37.320] Nothing is happening here.
[00:51:37.640 --> 00:51:39.320] It's now getting to about 10 o'clock.
[00:51:39.320 --> 00:51:41.240] It was supposed to be taken off at nine.
[00:51:41.240 --> 00:51:42.360] We're in nine.
[00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:43.480] So we're like, we're an hour delayed.
[00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:44.120] It's gone past that.
[00:51:44.120 --> 00:51:47.080] It's like half half 10 or something like this.
[00:51:47.080 --> 00:51:48.840] It's getting longer and longer.
[00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:50.760] Eventually, they get the red lady off.
[00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:53.240] The girl who was crying, she stood in the doorway.
[00:51:53.240 --> 00:51:53.960] She's not off yet.
[00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:54.840] They were like, where's your bags?
[00:51:54.920 --> 00:51:57.560] And she's like, I had to put them halfway down the plane.
[00:51:57.560 --> 00:52:00.200] So the cabin crew have to go down the plane trying to find her bags.
[00:52:00.200 --> 00:52:02.920] And then they realize she boarded the back of the plane.
[00:52:02.920 --> 00:52:03.320] Yes.
[00:52:03.320 --> 00:52:08.360] She tried to sit in several of the seats and tried to put a bag in several of the bins above the seats.
[00:52:08.360 --> 00:52:11.320] And she'd been the toilet at the back of the plane and she sat at the front.
[00:52:11.320 --> 00:52:18.040] So now she's a security risk because they get her off, but they don't know which cabinet, which boxes, which overhead bins she's been looking at.
[00:52:18.040 --> 00:52:18.600] Yes.
[00:52:18.600 --> 00:52:23.000] And if you were going to blow up a plane, that's an excellent way of getting away from the plane.
[00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:27.000] Put the bomb on the plane somewhere, go to your seat, get kicked off.
[00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:29.400] So they have to then go through checking everyone's bags.
[00:52:29.560 --> 00:52:30.760] This is your bag, this is your bag.
[00:52:30.760 --> 00:52:31.320] That doesn't work.
[00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:33.480] They have to disembark everybody.
[00:52:33.480 --> 00:52:35.080] We all have to get off, take everything.
[00:52:35.080 --> 00:52:38.840] It's if you don't take everything off this plane, we will destroy anything.
[00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:40.520] We keep blowing up anything left behind.
[00:52:40.520 --> 00:52:41.000] Yeah, exactly.
[00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:42.120] So we're now fucking hell.
[00:52:42.200 --> 00:52:43.480] So it's quarter to 11.
[00:52:43.480 --> 00:52:44.520] We were taking off at nine.
[00:52:44.520 --> 00:52:54.640] We're now all stood just outside on the tarmac by the plane while several sets of authorities, every staircar in Split Airport, surrounds this plane for some reason.
[00:52:54.640 --> 00:52:56.000] One of them was to get people off.
[00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:57.440] Like two of them, one of them was already on.
[00:52:57.440 --> 00:52:59.120] The other one was there to get people out of the back.
[00:52:59.120 --> 00:53:01.680] The others are just rubbernecking on what the fuck is going on.
[00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:04.560] Then there was somebody with mobility issues.
[00:53:04.560 --> 00:53:09.920] So rather than get them off, they did the thing where they bring the thing on a lift to plug them onto it.
[00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:10.800] So they have to go into there.
[00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:12.800] There's several sets of authorities coming around.
[00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:13.920] Eventually, we all get back on.
[00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:16.480] We're then waiting to hear whether we're going to get away or not.
[00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:20.000] Eventually, we take off at about 11, quarter, quarter past 11.
[00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:22.000] We were two, we're two over two hours delayed at that point.
[00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:23.280] So fuck me.
[00:53:23.280 --> 00:53:24.640] Okay, so we're in the air.
[00:53:24.640 --> 00:53:27.040] And then a woman has a medical emergency.
[00:53:27.200 --> 00:53:31.120] And in the air, like, well, after like half an hour of it, she staggers away to the front.
[00:53:31.120 --> 00:53:33.680] She has to sit in the emergency line.
[00:53:33.840 --> 00:53:35.120] We've got several people gathered around her.
[00:53:35.120 --> 00:53:36.960] She's on the gas mask and stuff.
[00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:42.000] And there's a part of me that thinks, oh, God, we're going to be diverted to the nearest hospital at this point.
[00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:44.320] So it was the most chaotic flight we've ever had.
[00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:52.240] I think we were supposed to land at something like half 11, and we landed at 10 past one and then had to drive back from Manchester.
[00:53:52.240 --> 00:53:54.800] And I got to bed about quarter to three.
[00:53:54.800 --> 00:53:58.640] And then half seven, the builders arrived to finish off the bathroom that hasn't been finished in a week.
[00:53:58.640 --> 00:53:59.680] Oh, fucking hell.
[00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:02.240] So I've had a very relaxing holiday.
[00:54:07.040 --> 00:54:14.560] So Liverpool Skeptics and the Pub, we have an event this evening in the CASA on Hope Street, and that is going to be Joni Clark.
[00:54:14.560 --> 00:54:18.720] Yes, so Joni is going to be talking about the history of trans and non-binary experience.
[00:54:18.720 --> 00:54:28.160] So, Joni's someone that actually, Kat, Kat Ford, and our other board member, Bob, went along and actually saw at an event, I think was it in Glastonbury or around the Glastonbury kind of area?
[00:54:28.160 --> 00:54:28.800] I think it was, yes.
[00:54:28.960 --> 00:54:34.840] Which was specifically pushing back against things like QAnon and the light paper and various things.
[00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:42.760] And Joni was speaking there about the way that trans people have been scapegoated in this kind of alternative conspiracist media landscape.
[00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:45.080] And Kat and Bob thought that Joni's talk was so excellent.
[00:54:45.080 --> 00:54:47.240] We had to get them up to Liverpool to give a talk.
[00:54:47.560 --> 00:54:50.600] I had a chat just to explain what we were about.
[00:54:50.600 --> 00:54:51.480] I'm really excited.
[00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:53.240] I think it should be a really, really interesting talk.
[00:54:53.240 --> 00:54:59.320] I think it's one of those where Joni is very happy to talk about anything about this whole topic.
[00:54:59.320 --> 00:55:03.160] So it's not like, oh, this bit's off limits, or I'm worried about you talking about this, or I won't answer questions about that.
[00:55:03.160 --> 00:55:06.440] It's just like, look, if people have got questions, let's talk about it.
[00:55:06.440 --> 00:55:07.720] Let's just have a proper conversation.
[00:55:07.720 --> 00:55:14.840] If they're good for your questions, we will talk about anything to do with anything people aren't sure about or want to want to know more about.
[00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:20.600] So, yeah, I think it should be a really, really interesting talk at a time when clearly we need people to be understanding these issues.
[00:55:20.600 --> 00:55:28.040] And we also need people to understand for any kind of concerns, reasonable otherwise, people might feel that they've seen expressed in other parts of media.
[00:55:28.040 --> 00:55:35.880] This is a topic that is being deliberately used as a wedge issue, as a scaremongering, scapegoating issue, to drive people to more extreme positions.
[00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:39.640] So that's something I think is really, really important for us as skeptics to be aware of and to be tackling.
[00:55:39.640 --> 00:55:40.200] Yeah.
[00:55:40.200 --> 00:55:42.360] So that's going to be in the CASA on Hope Street.
[00:55:42.440 --> 00:55:43.960] That's going to be from 7:30.
[00:55:43.960 --> 00:55:46.280] And if you're in the Liverpool area, you should definitely come along to that.
[00:55:46.280 --> 00:55:47.400] It's going to be a brilliant time.
[00:55:47.400 --> 00:55:48.920] I won't be there for that one because I'm going to be away.
[00:55:48.920 --> 00:55:51.320] I'm going to be away on my holling days.
[00:55:51.560 --> 00:55:53.560] But it sounds like it's going to be a fantastic time.
[00:55:53.560 --> 00:55:57.000] And I'm quite jealous that you folks are going to get to see this brilliant talk.
[00:55:57.000 --> 00:55:57.320] And I'm not sure.
[00:55:57.400 --> 00:55:58.120] It should be excellent.
[00:55:58.440 --> 00:56:00.280] We should also give a plug for QED.
[00:56:00.280 --> 00:56:03.560] So, the final ever QED is taking place this autumn.
[00:56:03.560 --> 00:56:07.880] The QED is going to be, I've forgotten the dates now, I've not 25th and 26th of October.
[00:56:07.880 --> 00:56:17.200] QED is going to be on the 25th and 26th of October, 2025, in the Mercure Piccadilly Hotel, which where we've done almost every QED now.
[00:56:17.600 --> 00:56:22.080] We had a little holiday off at a different hotel, but it's where we've done almost all of the QEDs.
[00:56:22.080 --> 00:56:23.920] Tickets for that are hurtling out.
[00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:31.200] We've already sold an obscene number of tickets, and we've got every anticipation that they're going to be selling out within an order of weeks.
[00:56:31.200 --> 00:56:34.880] Yeah, this is going to be the biggest QED we've had at least, well, certainly since the pandemic.
[00:56:35.200 --> 00:56:36.000] Certainly since, yeah.
[00:56:36.160 --> 00:56:39.120] One of the biggest we've ever, ever done, which is great.
[00:56:39.120 --> 00:56:44.080] So, if you would like to come along to QED, you can find more information about it at qedcon.org.
[00:56:44.080 --> 00:56:48.720] Tickets are £179, and as I say, they are going out fast.
[00:56:48.720 --> 00:56:53.040] So, you should get your skates on and buy your tickets for the final ever QED.
[00:56:53.040 --> 00:56:55.600] We can probably, I mean, we haven't discussed this.
[00:56:55.600 --> 00:56:57.440] We're going to do a live show, though, right?
[00:56:57.440 --> 00:56:58.400] I think we're going to do a live show.
[00:56:58.480 --> 00:56:59.280] We're going to do a live show.
[00:56:59.520 --> 00:57:01.520] I don't think we have a choice at this stage.
[00:57:01.520 --> 00:57:06.400] No, I think we'll be brow-beaten into it if we don't do that.
[00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:08.720] So, I think we're going to be doing a live show.
[00:57:08.720 --> 00:57:15.440] So, that's an exclusive for Skeptics with a K listeners, is that there will be a Skeptics with a K live show.
[00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:20.080] As I say, you should go to QDCon.org and pick up your QED tickets as soon as you can.
[00:57:20.080 --> 00:57:29.120] If you enjoy the show and you like what we do, you can support the show by going to patreon.com forward slash skeptics with a K, where you can donate as much or as little as you like.
[00:57:29.120 --> 00:57:30.880] All donations are greatly appreciated.
[00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:36.640] It helps us do the show, helps us pay for the production costs and things like that, helps us keep doing what we're doing.
[00:57:36.640 --> 00:57:43.840] And in exchange for that, you will get access to an ad-free version of this show, which I'm given to understand is a very valuable thing for people.
[00:57:44.080 --> 00:57:46.160] Some people do not want to listen to the ads.
[00:57:46.480 --> 00:57:49.200] Some people seem thrilled that they get to tell us about the terrible ads that we're doing.
[00:57:49.360 --> 00:57:50.000] Which is excellent.
[00:57:50.000 --> 00:57:50.960] I love that people do that.
[00:57:50.960 --> 00:57:51.520] It's brilliant.
[00:57:51.520 --> 00:57:52.800] It's absolutely what we want.
[00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:56.160] If you do hear a terrible ad, by all means, let us know.
[00:57:56.160 --> 00:58:05.640] Yeah, and the other thing you can do, actually, if you don't want to support the show financially on Patreon, support the work that we're doing, you can, of course, share the show and you can do reviews and stuff like that.
[00:58:05.640 --> 00:58:07.880] We probably don't really ask for reviews and things like that.
[00:58:08.200 --> 00:58:11.560] We kind of used to do that and maybe we haven't done it for quite a while.
[00:58:11.560 --> 00:58:17.960] But every time you leave us a review or you share it, you're going to find us to head us towards new listeners who might find this kind of stuff really useful.
[00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:25.880] So if you do love the show, by all means, tell people about it and tell people what you like about it because that'll help us get new people into SWAC.
[00:58:25.880 --> 00:58:37.880] And of course, if you like the work that's done by the Merseyside Skeptic Society, you can also support them on their Patreon, which is patreon.com forward slash Merseyskeptics, where you will also get an ad-free version of this show.
[00:58:38.200 --> 00:58:40.360] Aside from that, then I think that's all we have time for.
[00:58:40.360 --> 00:58:40.920] I think it is.
[00:58:40.920 --> 00:58:43.640] All that remains then is for me to thank Marsh for coming along today.
[00:58:43.640 --> 00:58:44.120] Cheers.
[00:58:44.120 --> 00:58:45.080] Thank you to Alice.
[00:58:45.080 --> 00:58:45.560] Thank you.
[00:58:45.560 --> 00:58:48.280] We have been Skeptics with a K, and we will see you next time.
[00:58:48.280 --> 00:58:49.000] Bye now.
[00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:49.880] Bye.
[00:58:54.680 --> 00:58:59.800] Skeptics with a K is produced by Skeptic Media in association with the Merseyside Skeptic Society.
[00:58:59.800 --> 00:59:08.840] For questions or comments, email podcast at skepticswithakay.org and you can find out more about Merseyside Skeptics at merseyside skeptics.org.uk.

Prompt 6: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 7: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 8: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Full Transcript

[00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:03.360] They say that home is where the heart is.
[00:00:03.360 --> 00:00:08.960] Maybe that's why so many fall in love with Big Pine Key and Florida's Lower Keys.
[00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:20.000] With epic ocean views, unspoiled wilderness, sandy beaches, abundant wildlife, RV resorts, and Stock Island's rustic charm.
[00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:23.680] Florida's lower keys don't skip a beat.
[00:00:23.680 --> 00:00:29.440] For more about the lower keys, visit fla keys.com/slash lower keys.
[00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:46.480] It is Thursday, the 19th of June, 2025, and you're listening to Skeptics with a K, the podcast for science, reason, and critical thinking.
[00:00:46.480 --> 00:00:58.160] Skeptics with a K is produced by Skeptic Media in association with the Merseyside Skeptic Society, a non-profit organization for the promotion of scientific skepticism on Merseyside around the UK and internationally.
[00:00:58.160 --> 00:00:59.600] I'm your host, Mike Hall.
[00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:00.960] With me today is Marsh.
[00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:01.520] Hello.
[00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:02.320] And Alice.
[00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:02.800] Hello.
[00:01:02.800 --> 00:01:06.720] I nearly just listened to the bit where you said with me to do is Marsh, and I nearly just listened to that.
[00:01:06.720 --> 00:01:08.080] I'd be like, I am listening.
[00:01:08.800 --> 00:01:11.200] I don't know, because we haven't recorded in a little while.
[00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:11.760] It's a long time.
[00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:12.560] It's been about a month.
[00:01:12.960 --> 00:01:13.520] It's a long time.
[00:01:13.520 --> 00:01:14.480] It's a long time.
[00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:15.760] I've forgotten how to do it.
[00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:17.680] Because listeners probably won't be aware.
[00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:24.960] We hinted to this obliquely in some of the shows that we've just recorded that we have recorded a few shows out of time because we've all been on holiday.
[00:01:24.960 --> 00:01:26.240] In fact, that's not true.
[00:01:26.240 --> 00:01:28.720] You two have just come back from two separate holidays.
[00:01:28.720 --> 00:01:29.680] Let's say you've been on holiday.
[00:01:30.320 --> 00:01:31.280] We've been on two holidays.
[00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:32.160] Yeah, Alice, I've been on one holiday.
[00:01:32.240 --> 00:01:32.640] One together.
[00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:35.520] And one apartment.
[00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:40.080] But I am shortly after this recording jetting off on my own holiday.
[00:01:40.080 --> 00:01:43.040] So, yeah, we've had to do some jiggery poker with it.
[00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:44.400] We've been recording all over the place.
[00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:46.000] With the schedule, but we're here now.
[00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:46.800] We're here, listeners.
[00:01:46.800 --> 00:01:47.200] We're here for now.
[00:01:47.360 --> 00:01:48.320] Thank you.
[00:01:48.320 --> 00:01:51.200] So, as you say, I've just got back from a holiday and I've spent the past 10 days.
[00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:58.640] I literally got back Friday morning at like half one, and I've spent the past 10 days eating delicious Turkish food.
[00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:00.040] Like, Turkish food is really good.
[00:01:58.800 --> 00:02:04.760] I think Turkish food is underrated, and people don't quite appreciate how good Turkish food is.
[00:01:58.880 --> 00:01:59.840] Turkish food is really good.
[00:02:05.960 --> 00:02:07.560] It's not just kebabs and hummus.
[00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:09.240] I thought that it was just kebabs and hummus.
[00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:10.120] Delicious.
[00:02:10.440 --> 00:02:11.480] But this is the thing.
[00:02:11.480 --> 00:02:14.280] People think it's just the grilled meat, but it's the grilled meat.
[00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:16.520] It's the different kinds of grilled meat.
[00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:18.040] It's the grilled fish.
[00:02:18.040 --> 00:02:18.760] I like a grilled fish.
[00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:22.120] It's all the delicious tasty mesae, lots of aubergines, lots of peppers.
[00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:22.840] Like it's all really good.
[00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:23.960] I've just got back from Croatia.
[00:02:23.960 --> 00:02:26.680] I'll tell a story at the end of the show about being away in Croatia.
[00:02:26.680 --> 00:02:32.760] But I was all about the grilled fish in Croatia, which made it very frustrating that I couldn't find any for most of the time that I was there.
[00:02:33.160 --> 00:02:36.120] And because it was fucking expensive, which I'll mention at the end of the show.
[00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:45.720] But the best grilled fish I had, or one of the best grilled fishes I had, was on a boat trip between islands where there was like 30 of us or 40 of us on a board, and they were just grilling a fish on the boat.
[00:02:45.720 --> 00:02:48.120] And we're like, there you go, slop, have your fish.
[00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:49.320] Incredible grilled fish.
[00:02:49.480 --> 00:02:51.560] Where the boat driver goes off to grill the fish off.
[00:02:51.880 --> 00:02:52.680] Yeah, exactly that.
[00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:53.320] Exactly that.
[00:02:53.320 --> 00:02:54.760] We did one of those project trips as well.
[00:02:54.920 --> 00:02:55.560] Incredible grilled fish.
[00:02:55.720 --> 00:02:57.400] Did they haul it over the side as you were going?
[00:02:57.400 --> 00:02:59.160] Was it technically a duty-free?
[00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:01.960] Was it in international waters?
[00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:03.240] Well, you say that.
[00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:05.320] It was incredibly expensive to drink where I was.
[00:03:05.320 --> 00:03:05.720] Yes.
[00:03:05.720 --> 00:03:08.840] So on the boat, it was free wine with the food and things.
[00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:09.880] And free wine anytime.
[00:03:09.880 --> 00:03:10.920] There's a bottle of wine there.
[00:03:10.920 --> 00:03:12.040] If you want wine, help yourself.
[00:03:12.040 --> 00:03:14.440] And they put a litre of wine on each of the tables.
[00:03:14.440 --> 00:03:16.200] And it was me and Nicholas sat on our table.
[00:03:16.200 --> 00:03:17.400] And we were caught at the beach afterwards.
[00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:19.800] And I thought, I could pop that litre in the back.
[00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:26.200] So I think the cheapest meal that I had was on the boat, including the price of the boat trip.
[00:03:26.200 --> 00:03:27.320] Okay, good.
[00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:31.160] So I've talked on the show before about how my autism shows up with food.
[00:03:31.160 --> 00:03:38.760] That well into my adulthood, I struggled to eat lots of things due to difficulties, specifically with texture, but other things kind of play into it.
[00:03:38.760 --> 00:03:49.360] Which means almost all vegetables were off-limits until I started working in a steakhouse when I was 15 and gradually built up the courage, and I do mean courage, to try and love buttery mushrooms.
[00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:50.240] That was the first thing I had to do.
[00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:51.440] Was it really buttery mushrooms?
[00:03:51.440 --> 00:03:52.720] That's not a vegetable.
[00:03:52.720 --> 00:03:53.040] No.
[00:03:53.040 --> 00:03:55.760] Your introduction to vegetables was with not a vegetable.
[00:03:55.760 --> 00:03:56.720] That doesn't count.
[00:03:56.720 --> 00:04:00.080] The next thing you ate after that was actually your introduction to vegetables.
[00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:01.040] You've been lying yourself.
[00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:02.560] It is a colloquial vegetable.
[00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:05.760] Technically, there's no such thing as a vegetable.
[00:04:05.760 --> 00:04:08.160] A vegetable is a culinary term, not a like.
[00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:10.480] Mushrooms in the veg aisle at Tesco.
[00:04:10.480 --> 00:04:10.880] Yeah.
[00:04:10.880 --> 00:04:12.000] Okay, fine.
[00:04:12.640 --> 00:04:17.280] Then at university, I managed to add bell peppers to my diet very gradually over the course of several years.
[00:04:17.280 --> 00:04:20.480] And since then, I've added new vegetables to my diet bit by bit.
[00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:24.000] Some like aubergine becoming firm favourites very quickly.
[00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:29.600] Others like tomatoes taking many years to get to a point of even being able to tolerate the texture.
[00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:32.640] I think I've been working on tomatoes for like eight years.
[00:04:32.640 --> 00:04:35.680] And I still like, I still couldn't sit down and eat a piece of raw.
[00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:36.880] God, I bloody love a tomato.
[00:04:36.880 --> 00:04:38.480] I can eat a tomato like an apple.
[00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:39.920] I can just bite it into a tomato.
[00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:40.800] A little bit of salt on it.
[00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:42.000] Chomp, lovely.
[00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:45.040] So I've been improving gradually for the past 10 years or so.
[00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:56.320] But even then, this is still kind of the first year that I was able to sit down at a Turkish restaurant and eat and enjoy the vast majority of a dozen or so mesé dishes that were brought to the table.
[00:04:56.320 --> 00:05:01.200] So things like roasted aubergine, cold roasted aubergine, which even last year would have been like a broader.
[00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:02.720] A cold roasted aubergine.
[00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:06.800] Like a roasted aubergine mesé dish that is served up like room temperature.
[00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:09.200] It was roasted and then left to cool.
[00:05:09.440 --> 00:05:13.440] I thought cold roasting was like a special culinary technique I wasn't aware of.
[00:05:13.440 --> 00:05:15.360] Like cold fusion for aubergine.
[00:05:16.320 --> 00:05:26.240] And it genuinely feels like a revelation for me to be able to go on holiday to a country and enjoy the food that is part of that country's culture without it being a big deal or a hurdle to get over.
[00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:29.360] When we were in Barcelona, you had the squid ink risotto.
[00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:31.080] Would that have been a problem previously?
[00:05:31.080 --> 00:05:33.560] No, so that always would have been things like that would have been fine.
[00:05:33.560 --> 00:05:35.160] Carbs were always fine.
[00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:38.280] Meat, always fine as long as it was lean, like fatty meat I'd struggle with.
[00:05:38.280 --> 00:05:40.520] Squid has always been a reasonably safe thing.
[00:05:40.520 --> 00:05:45.800] The squid ink risotto would have been fine as long as it didn't have big chunks of obvious onion in it.
[00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:53.400] The onion, particularly in rice or mince meat, is quite tricky because it's hard to pick around it if it's mixed into something else that's bitty.
[00:05:53.640 --> 00:05:57.000] I could do very finely diced onion, but great big chunks of onion.
[00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:59.240] I'm not, I'm not, and raw onion is fully off the table.
[00:05:59.640 --> 00:06:00.520] I can do now.
[00:06:00.520 --> 00:06:10.680] I've got a lot better, but it used to be like I would have picked around every single piece of onion and then get very frustrated when people lie to me and be like, oh, yeah, there's no, you can't tell, there's no onion in this.
[00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:13.720] It's like, yeah, but I can see it and I can feel the texture of it.
[00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:14.040] And I can.
[00:06:14.280 --> 00:06:19.960] I obviously don't have like the texture sensitivity or any of the kind of food kind of stuff that you've struggled with.
[00:06:19.960 --> 00:06:29.480] But I also don't have the thing that a lot of normal people have, which is preferences and not anti-preferences, because it's just food arrives and you eat it.
[00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:30.120] That's what you do.
[00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:35.000] And when you don't have like a texture thing to worry about, then you just do get told you eat your food and you eat it.
[00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:41.960] So I don't think there's anything I can really think of that I don't eat in terms of certainly vegetables that could appear on a plate.
[00:06:41.960 --> 00:06:43.400] I don't think there's absolutely anything.
[00:06:43.400 --> 00:06:48.440] So I don't even have like the not pickiness, but the preference that somebody without food issues would have.
[00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:56.520] Well, and this is the other thing that was a bit of a revelation for me was like having things that I dislike because of a preference.
[00:06:56.520 --> 00:07:00.600] Like, historically, it was always just there were things that I could eat and things that I couldn't eat.
[00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:02.280] And the things that I could eat were things that I liked.
[00:07:02.280 --> 00:07:05.800] And the things that I couldn't eat, I couldn't tell you if I liked them or not because I couldn't eat them.
[00:07:05.960 --> 00:07:10.920] I couldn't keep them in my mouth long enough to know whether I liked the flavour or not.
[00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:26.880] So, being able to have all those mese dishes, and the thing that I didn't eat was the yogurt with mint and cucumber because I don't like mint and cucumber, not because I can't eat mint and cucumber, I just don't like it is a complete revelation to have a preference.
[00:07:27.200 --> 00:07:32.400] Obviously, there's loads of trauma held up in those kind of formative food-related experiences.
[00:07:32.400 --> 00:07:39.680] A lot of stigma, even still, on what's around this kind of topic, what's considered by a lot of people as picky eating.
[00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:48.160] And on top of that, I have personal body image issues that ultimately always get tied up in the food we eat just because of my own personal experiences in childhood.
[00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:55.600] But perhaps the unusual thing for somebody who has such a complicated relationship with food is that I find food fascinating.
[00:07:55.600 --> 00:08:00.800] Like, I love good food, I love to cook, especially to cook for people who I care about.
[00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:06.000] And I grew up in a household of foodies, so it kind of makes sense that I'm so interested in food.
[00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:09.680] But I was interested in it long before I could actually eat any of the food.
[00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:14.640] Okay, you're interested in it from a hypothetical anthropological point of view.
[00:08:14.640 --> 00:08:20.560] Yes, so growing up with foodies, we were always going to nice restaurants only for me to then order the blandest dish on the menu.
[00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:31.200] Always seeing my dad in the kitchen cooking interesting dishes that I would then not be able to eat, always watching cooking shows, knowing that all of these lovely-looking dishes that were prepared were things that I wouldn't be able to eat.
[00:08:31.200 --> 00:08:34.640] That would be something that looks lovely but is just not something I could eat.
[00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:37.440] Is that one of the rare things that all three of us are into?
[00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:39.360] Is that we all quite like cooking?
[00:08:39.680 --> 00:08:40.640] I've learned to like cook.
[00:08:40.640 --> 00:08:41.440] I'm not into cooking.
[00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:47.120] I think I like cooking the things I like to cook, but I don't like how to describe it.
[00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:50.320] You don't like cooking everyday food, you like cooking a special dish every now and then?
[00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:51.120] Yeah, exactly.
[00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:59.200] I mean, I don't get a kick out of being in the kitchen every single day and making all the food and things like that, but I like to be able to go, I'm going to try this thing and I'll do this interesting thing here.
[00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:04.680] But I think that's just something I've learned to enjoy rather than actively enjoyed because it has to be done.
[00:09:04.680 --> 00:09:06.920] And I do a lot of the cooking in our house.
[00:08:59.920 --> 00:09:07.080] Yeah.
[00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:08.280] I really love cooking.
[00:09:08.840 --> 00:09:11.240] I do almost all of the cooking when I'm at home as well.
[00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:15.080] And something I really the other day I made carbonara for the first time.
[00:09:15.320 --> 00:09:15.640] Okay.
[00:09:15.880 --> 00:09:17.080] Did you make your own pasta?
[00:09:17.080 --> 00:09:18.280] I have made my own pasta.
[00:09:18.280 --> 00:09:19.480] I did not for the carbonara.
[00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:22.120] I used store-bought pasta, like some sort of Philistine stuff.
[00:09:22.280 --> 00:09:22.760] Disgusting.
[00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:30.120] But I did make it properly with like pancetta and eggs and parmesan and no cream.
[00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:35.160] No cream, which is the big thing that everyone puts cream in Carbonara and you're not meant to put cream in Carbonara.
[00:09:35.160 --> 00:09:37.640] And if you're not careful, you can accidentally scramble the eggs.
[00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:40.520] I think when I tried it once, I slightly scrambled the eggs.
[00:09:40.760 --> 00:09:42.760] It wasn't too bad, but I made two portions.
[00:09:42.760 --> 00:09:46.600] Well, I made three portions, but I made there were two portions, one for me, one for Lana.
[00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:50.360] And Lana's one was fine, and mine was just on the turn of scrambling.
[00:09:50.680 --> 00:09:52.120] And so I was like, okay, I'll have that one.
[00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:53.960] And she thinks I've made a fucking brilliant dinner.
[00:09:53.960 --> 00:09:54.760] There we go.
[00:09:54.760 --> 00:10:00.680] Because you like to cook and you like to cook Italian food and stuff, but you also don't drink, you don't go near alcohol personally.
[00:10:00.680 --> 00:10:07.880] Is there ever part of you that wants to cook with white wine, given that all the alcohol cooks off and there's just flavour of white wine flavoured in a sauce?
[00:10:07.880 --> 00:10:09.320] I'm never persuaded that it cooks off.
[00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:11.800] It doesn't all, I don't think it does all cook off.
[00:10:11.800 --> 00:10:21.640] I think that's just suspicious of if you're observant of like avoiding alcohol entirely, you shouldn't really cook with alcohol because you it it doesn't cook off enough.
[00:10:21.640 --> 00:10:28.520] So quite often when I do, if I'm making a ragu, I'll usually just use a bit of extra stock instead of using the red wine.
[00:10:28.520 --> 00:10:38.360] Or when I did Coco Van the other day, I used cranberry juice instead of the red wine for that red wine kind of slight sweetness bit.
[00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:42.520] But obviously, with a a cranberry juice, it's not quite as sweet as if you'd use another fruit juice.
[00:10:42.520 --> 00:10:44.200] It's it's got a little bit of bitterness about it.
[00:10:44.280 --> 00:10:46.880] Yeah, yeah, that's what I do.
[00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:48.080] We enjoy cooking.
[00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:49.200] It's a Patreon bonus.
[00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:51.200] We'll do like the three of us could get together.
[00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:52.720] We're going to go to the kitchen.
[00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:56.480] We're just stereotyped.
[00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:58.240] We just never told anyone.
[00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:03.200] So, when I was growing up, people didn't know about ARFID.
[00:11:03.280 --> 00:11:08.640] If your child didn't eat, you either force them to eat, which was tried for a while, or you let them eat what they want.
[00:11:08.640 --> 00:11:12.160] So, by the time I was in high school, I was feeding myself pretty much.
[00:11:12.160 --> 00:11:18.320] Usually, I'd eat plain pasta with butter, white toast, or microwave jacket potatoes with butter, but without the skin.
[00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:24.640] I can't exactly remember at what point I took over doing the majority of the cooking in my adult household.
[00:11:24.640 --> 00:11:30.400] I think it's probably when I was recovering from depression, hadn't been eating properly for a long time, and I'd lost quite a bit of weight.
[00:11:30.400 --> 00:11:39.680] So, I think I started to cook simple, interesting things that were more enjoyable than basic meals in an effort to encourage myself to eat a proper meal.
[00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:44.320] And because I'd always been interested in food, I kind of had an idea of the sort of things I might like.
[00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:47.920] So, I started following recipes but making adaptions for the things that I couldn't eat.
[00:11:47.920 --> 00:11:55.440] So, I'm still very good at making those either swaps or just cooking things differently to suit the textured needs that I have.
[00:11:55.760 --> 00:12:03.200] That control of being able to prepare food for myself gave me that control that really then helped me to add more and more things to my diet.
[00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:05.440] I could cook things the way that I thought I might like them.
[00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:11.840] I could disguise ingredients and dishes until I practiced with the flavor and texture enough to feel ready to reduce the disguise.
[00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:12.480] Okay, yeah, yeah.
[00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:16.400] Which is one trick that I've used to learn to eat certain foods.
[00:12:16.400 --> 00:12:25.280] And now, I, as I say, I kind of have this knowledge of what things I like and what things I just not interested in, things that I just don't enjoy.
[00:12:25.280 --> 00:12:31.080] So, I now know that all the ingredients I love most pretty much are ones that lend themselves really well to Turkish cuisine.
[00:12:29.920 --> 00:12:33.640] I love aubergine, I love bell peppers, I love bulguet.
[00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:37.720] Bulgarweet's so tasty, like we don't eat it anywhere near enough in this country.
[00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:39.320] It's like really tasty.
[00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:42.440] So I got back from holiday and the first thing I wanted to do was cook.
[00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:50.520] So this morning I cooked Menemen, which is a Turkish egg dish that works better for me than Shakshuka because it has a slightly different tomato ratio.
[00:12:50.520 --> 00:12:53.080] Shakshuka is mostly tomatoes.
[00:12:53.080 --> 00:12:54.840] So I knew I wanted to make Menemen.
[00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:59.240] I've made it before, but I knew that the last time I made it, it wasn't quite right.
[00:12:59.560 --> 00:13:08.120] So I picked up my phone to look for a recipe that would be suitable for my taste, found a few I like, skimmed through them and then went to the kitchen and just did it based on vibes.
[00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:14.600] When you say skim through them, did you have to skim through the extensive personal essay that starts every single recipe?
[00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:16.200] Because it's the least interesting.
[00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:17.800] It's a thing I was saying to Nicola.
[00:13:17.800 --> 00:13:22.200] Nicola, when we're driving, Nicola is often the one giving directions, especially when my satnabs on the blink.
[00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:26.440] And I was saying that Nicola doesn't just do the left here, right here, straight on.
[00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:30.520] She does the, okay, so I think the thing we should probably be looking to do round about here.
[00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:34.680] I'm like, don't do the recipe thing of give me a life story about the first time you're going to cut.
[00:13:34.680 --> 00:13:36.040] I just need one of three words.
[00:13:36.040 --> 00:13:38.840] The only words I need are left, right, or straight on.
[00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:40.680] Everything else is just skimmed to the end.
[00:13:41.160 --> 00:13:42.520] It's the same with recipes.
[00:13:42.520 --> 00:13:44.360] Yes, that is a thing that happens on recipes.
[00:13:44.360 --> 00:13:46.040] I don't begrudge bloggers doing that.
[00:13:46.040 --> 00:13:47.720] I don't think there is necessary anymore.
[00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:57.160] But in the old days, like when blogging was a thing, like when you could have a blog and be a blogger and that be a lifestyle thing you could do, which isn't really anymore.
[00:13:57.160 --> 00:14:03.800] You can be like a vlogger, you can be an influencer, but blogging doesn't really exist as a thing anymore.
[00:14:03.800 --> 00:14:09.400] But like in those days, you had to write those things for your like loyal followers.
[00:14:09.400 --> 00:14:13.200] And at least now we have the like jump to recipe button that is really useful.
[00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:16.400] And you can just, you know, you need to scroll into the bottom, you can ignore most of it.
[00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:18.080] So I think it's like a hangover from that.
[00:14:18.400 --> 00:14:25.280] And I know from because my auntie used to do it a little bit, that that was really important for maintaining engagement.
[00:14:25.280 --> 00:14:28.240] And then people who are just looking for recipes complain about it.
[00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:30.080] But it's like, I don't even want to be doing it.
[00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:32.240] I just have to do it to get the engagement that I want.
[00:14:32.640 --> 00:14:34.000] The internet's always been a bad.
[00:14:34.160 --> 00:14:35.600] It's always been a mistake.
[00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:37.680] So I don't think it's the fault of the bloggers.
[00:14:37.680 --> 00:14:39.120] I think it's the fault of the system.
[00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:41.040] It's still partly their fault.
[00:14:41.040 --> 00:14:42.880] The system's built on them.
[00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:49.040] So, but of course, I then, having looked at loads of recipes, I don't look, it wasn't looking at the recipe when I was in the kitchen.
[00:14:49.040 --> 00:14:53.600] I was just like, having read a few of them, it had gone into my brain and I was just figuring out what would work.
[00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:56.240] Long story short, you're now a trad wife.
[00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:01.840] So I cooked Manaman this morning.
[00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:03.520] Came out alright, better than last time.
[00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:05.520] It's probably a few things that I'd tweak for next time.
[00:15:05.520 --> 00:15:11.600] But really, I think this is the old-fashioned way of cooking and coming up with ideas for new recipes.
[00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:16.640] As far as I can see, there are two ways that younger people find ideas of things to cook these days.
[00:15:16.640 --> 00:15:18.720] Like, it's changed quite significantly.
[00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:25.200] Millennials like me like meal kits, they learn how to cook and they find recipes through meal kits.
[00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:39.680] Once you get to that point of having a little bit more disposable income, you've got a more reliable job, you can't afford to buy a house, so you're spending your disposable income on other things that bring you joy, then it can be an easy way to get recipes and pre-portioned ingredients sent to you so that you don't have to think about it.
[00:15:39.680 --> 00:15:42.960] But you can also learn the step-by-step way to cook those recipes.
[00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:45.360] I've used them a bit and I find it useful for business ideas.
[00:15:45.680 --> 00:15:47.440] Have we taken ads and we haven't agreed?
[00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:49.280] We're doing horsebread ads and we didn't agree.
[00:15:49.520 --> 00:15:51.040] We had a meeting when you were away, mate.
[00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:53.200] Don't worry about it.
[00:15:53.520 --> 00:15:57.200] And the step-by-step guys will often then teach you some useful techniques as well.
[00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:03.960] So there's a lot of people in my kind of demographic who use meal kits to learn how to cook and to find ideas for new recipes.
[00:16:04.280 --> 00:16:11.000] But according to an article in the Washington Post earlier this year, the place for finding recipes now is social media.
[00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:13.080] And I certainly see this quite a bit.
[00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:22.840] I follow a few cooking-related profiles on Instagram, and it can be a useful place to see the structure of a recipe and the finished product and what the finished product actually looks like and how tasty it looks.
[00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:25.320] You use a lot of cooking videos, don't you?
[00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:35.640] Not necessarily through Instagram, but being able to see the steps, see what you're making, see how it's supposed to look at each step as well, which can be useful for people learning how to cook something.
[00:16:35.640 --> 00:16:52.840] And quite often you get a kind of here's a simple five-ingredient recipe, which just immediately that initial thing says, oh, this is going to be really simple and really achievable for me to go in and do it because it's just a five-ingredient recipe, which makes it feel very accessible and like that's something I can achieve.
[00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:53.960] That's something I can do.
[00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:55.160] So that's exactly it.
[00:16:55.160 --> 00:16:58.040] So now, obviously, people are moving towards TikTok.
[00:16:58.040 --> 00:17:08.920] And this Washington Post article explains that that means that people are exposed to those micro trends that we see in TikTok where a new trending recipe is trending for a while and people are, what's it called?
[00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:12.200] Where you remix off somebody else's content stitching.
[00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:14.600] Stitching or duetting for the two terms.
[00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:26.760] So where you're taking a recipe and building on that recipe, then those trending recipes just kind of become completely viral.
[00:17:27.080 --> 00:17:38.600] But also, because of the nature of TikTok and that really extremely short form content, it means that the dishes that are trending are often super paired back and really simple to make.
[00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:44.880] You can only get across the really key techniques for every recipe, so those are the ones that are communicated.
[00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.640] You're not communicating all the kind of, I mean, it sounds like you would love it, Marsh.
[00:17:49.040 --> 00:17:50.320] There's no like life story.
[00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:57.360] It is entirely get to the point of what ingredients you need, how to make it, and the key piece of information.
[00:17:57.360 --> 00:18:02.960] So, like almost every recipe, I think there's usually one thing of like, as long as you do this, it's not going to go too wrong.
[00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:09.360] It might be like cook the onions for a bit longer than you think, or put in way more paprika than you think is possibly possible for it.
[00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:16.160] There's always something that is just the key piece of information that can make or break that dish, and that's the bit that gets communicated.
[00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:26.400] And it means that people get to learn the cooking basics, but they can also see it a recipe as approachable and sometimes how simple that cooking can be, exactly like you say, Mike.
[00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:31.840] And it makes it way more accessible for people who have maybe felt intimidated by cooking in the past.
[00:18:31.840 --> 00:18:33.520] It's exactly why I made a Carbonara.
[00:18:33.520 --> 00:18:35.600] Everyone always said, Carbonara, you fuck it up.
[00:18:35.600 --> 00:18:37.280] You will fuck up a Carbonara.
[00:18:37.280 --> 00:18:42.560] And then when I found a recipe and it was a video recipe on TikTok that said, is that to make a Carbonara?
[00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:43.920] I was like, I could fucking do that.
[00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:44.720] I could definitely do that.
[00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:45.520] I'm going to give that a bash.
[00:18:45.520 --> 00:18:46.480] I'm going to try it.
[00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:47.760] And I did, and it was nice.
[00:18:47.760 --> 00:18:48.400] I enjoyed it.
[00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:49.120] It's good.
[00:18:49.120 --> 00:18:52.640] And it means you see those points at which you can fail at a dish.
[00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:55.600] Like, it's not just following step by step and having to decide.
[00:18:55.600 --> 00:18:57.440] I hate video recipes.
[00:18:57.440 --> 00:18:59.520] I find them really frustrating.
[00:18:59.520 --> 00:19:07.760] But I would watch a few video recipes if they were short, like on TikTok, just to get the feeling of how to make a thing and then go and look at a written recipe.
[00:19:07.760 --> 00:19:22.800] But in a written recipe, it could be hard to pull out that key piece of information that you might skim over the bit that says keep your pan cool because you might scramble the eggs or skim over the bit in a Hollandaise that says, Really do genuinely add the eggs to the butter really very slowly.
[00:19:23.040 --> 00:19:25.680] Yeah, whack them all in and ruin everything.
[00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:30.000] So, it can be useful for really highlighting the key, the key piece of information.
[00:19:30.280 --> 00:19:39.400] But, of course, once you're looking at cooking content on social media, you're inevitably going to start seeing a lot of marketing for the items that you might want to use for cooking.
[00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:43.240] And especially, you're going to see this if you're on TikTok because of the TikTok shop.
[00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:47.560] Which brings me very circuitously to the topic that I want to talk to you about.
[00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:49.960] 20 minutes in, it's fine.
[00:19:50.280 --> 00:19:52.120] It's been a while since we've all got together.
[00:19:52.120 --> 00:19:53.640] There's lots of rambling to do.
[00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:56.600] So, late last year, I bought myself a new pan.
[00:19:56.600 --> 00:19:57.960] It was quite an expensive pan.
[00:19:57.960 --> 00:19:59.880] It's one that retails at like £125.
[00:19:59.880 --> 00:20:03.000] I didn't pay £125, but it's always on offer, so I've got it on offer.
[00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:05.880] But I've been thinking about buying this pan for like a year and a half.
[00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:10.920] And I kept looking at it, and I kept looking at other pans and looking at reviews and making comparisons.
[00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:19.880] But honestly, part of the reason I spent so long thinking about buying this pan was because the pan I ended up choosing was a pan that is very popular on social media.
[00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:21.880] Why is a pan popular on social media?
[00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:24.280] What world are we in where there is a popular pan?
[00:20:24.280 --> 00:20:26.120] Because of the Instagram aesthetic.
[00:20:26.120 --> 00:20:27.560] Because it's a beautiful pan.
[00:20:27.560 --> 00:20:29.320] It is a very beautiful pan.
[00:20:29.320 --> 00:20:41.800] But also, it's a multifunctional pan, so it's got like a basket that you can put in it for steaming vegetables and all these different like things that make it more suitable for people with smaller living spaces and blah blah blah.
[00:20:42.120 --> 00:20:47.400] And I wanted to be sure that I hadn't been social media influenced into buying this pan.
[00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:48.680] Okay, so you read the reviews.
[00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:50.840] That wasn't actually useful for me.
[00:20:50.840 --> 00:20:56.840] I wanted to spend time actually thinking about it and going away from thinking about it and looking at different pan options.
[00:20:56.840 --> 00:21:01.160] There are a lot of pan options and reading different insights on it, blah, blah, blah.
[00:21:01.160 --> 00:21:05.960] And I wanted to be sure that I wasn't just like sucked in because it's pretty and it's all over social media.
[00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:11.560] Which can happen even if you're trying very hard for it to not happen because social media is so pervasive.
[00:21:11.560 --> 00:21:17.200] You just see things out the corner of your eye that you don't even realize you've seen, and suddenly you've been influenced into buying something.
[00:21:14.840 --> 00:21:21.440] My new pan is beautiful and useful, and I really enjoy cooking with it.
[00:21:21.760 --> 00:21:28.400] And mostly the sort of material that I come across in Instagram for this pan is that it's beautiful and useful.
[00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:32.160] But over on TikTok, there are a lot more scaremongering sorts of messages.
[00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:37.440] And to be fair, I'm sure you'll find these on Instagram as well, but not the parts of Instagram that the algorithm serves to me.
[00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:41.600] You'll find scaremongering videos talking about how toxic non-stick pans are.
[00:21:41.600 --> 00:21:44.240] Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, like the T-file type stuff.
[00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:45.040] Yes.
[00:21:45.040 --> 00:21:58.640] And the pan that I've bought is what claims to be a non-toxic, non-stick ceramic pan that is not coated with these awful things that most awful non-stick pans are called.
[00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:00.080] PFAs or whatever.
[00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:07.520] So most non-stick pans these days are made using per and polyfluoroalkyl substances or PFAS.
[00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:20.480] The first of these substances that was first discovered was polytetrafluoroethylene, also known as PFTE, which was discovered by accident in the late 1930s by a chemist working for DuPont.
[00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:23.920] It feels like people discover stuff by accident less often than they used to.
[00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:25.680] That's because we've discovered a lot of the things.
[00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:27.600] We've tripped over all the obvious stuff.
[00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:29.760] Yeah, okay, makes sense.
[00:22:30.080 --> 00:22:40.880] By the mid-1950s, with some things happening in between, I've never heard the Second World War ever yada, yada, yada, away so significantly.
[00:22:41.040 --> 00:22:42.320] I've never been thinking about the war.
[00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:44.160] It was discovered in the 30s.
[00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:46.080] Then in the 50s, a few things happened in between.
[00:22:46.080 --> 00:22:47.120] We don't need to get in between.
[00:22:47.600 --> 00:22:54.640] A few things in relation to the chemical steps, not in relation to just world politics.
[00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:57.760] I wasn't even thinking about the war.
[00:22:57.760 --> 00:23:05.800] I should have done because this thing's this stuff's used in protecting pipes and things from the materials we use to make the atomic bomb.
[00:23:05.800 --> 00:23:06.120] Right.
[00:22:59.840 --> 00:23:06.600] Yeah.
[00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:18.440] So by the 1950s, mid-1950s, husband and wife team realized the value of this material on cookware because the substance is chemically inert, so it doesn't react to things.
[00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:22.360] It's hydrophobic, so it repels water, and it has a pretty high heat tolerance.
[00:23:22.360 --> 00:23:26.040] So perfect for a non-stick cooking surface on cookware.
[00:23:26.040 --> 00:23:33.880] But it's also useful for coating the surfaces of containers or pipes for reactive chemicals because it won't be corroded if you put something corrosive against it.
[00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:40.280] These days, PFAS, the family of chemicals that PFTE belongs to, are used in all sorts of things.
[00:23:40.280 --> 00:23:48.200] They're used in waterproof fabric, most famously Gore-Tex, mobile phone screens, wall paint, electrical wire insulation, and carpets.
[00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:49.400] All things that make sense, right?
[00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:54.840] Things that you want to either be water repellent or stain repellent because things don't stick to them.
[00:23:54.840 --> 00:24:03.240] But they're also used in cosmetics, including shampoos to make the hair look silkier, lots of makeup products, including waterproof mascara and nail polish and foundation.
[00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:05.400] And they're even used in contact lenses.
[00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:07.800] They're pretty much used in everything.
[00:24:08.120 --> 00:24:12.600] The main issue with PFAS is the thing that makes them so useful.
[00:24:12.600 --> 00:24:16.440] They're inert, which means they don't get broken down.
[00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:19.560] They don't react to things that would degrade other surfaces, so they don't break down.
[00:24:19.560 --> 00:24:23.720] And we haven't quite figured out a way to get rid of them, which is why we call them forever chemicals.
[00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:24.520] Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:24.840 --> 00:24:26.200] But they are inert chemicals.
[00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:30.600] So once your pan is coated, it's unlikely to flake off into your food.
[00:24:30.600 --> 00:24:33.960] They're heat resistant, so they won't degrade when used to cook.
[00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:49.360] And the advice on non-stick pans coated with PFAS, particularly PFTE, is that as long as you don't heat them past 260 degrees Celsius and you don't use metal utensils which could physically scratch the coating, then they're probably pretty safe to use.
[00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:51.280] It is a probably.
[00:24:51.280 --> 00:24:59.680] There is one PFAS that we know is likely unsafe for use, and that is perfluoro-octanoic acid or PFOA.
[00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:07.680] PFOA was first developed in the late 1940s, and by 1968, it was detected in the blood serum of consumers.
[00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:16.000] Just because something's in the blood doesn't necessarily mean it's causing any harm, and it is inert, it's probably not interacting with things too much in the body.
[00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:18.240] But it's possibly not ideal that it's there.
[00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:19.120] Sure.
[00:25:19.120 --> 00:25:24.720] But we do know that PFAS are bioaccumulative, so once it's in the body, we can't excrete it.
[00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:27.760] It just kind of starts to accumulate in the body.
[00:25:28.080 --> 00:25:30.160] So they start to build up over time.
[00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:41.760] As far as I can see, we don't have any hard evidence directly linking the presence of PFAS in the body to any physical harm, even if it accumulates to reasonably high levels.
[00:25:41.760 --> 00:25:51.600] But we do have mechanistic and association data suggesting that PFOA in particular probably almost certainly does cause certain types of harm.
[00:25:51.600 --> 00:26:00.560] And you'd think that would make sense because there has to be a level at which it's going to cause some degree of harm because you can't, you don't have infinite space within the various vessels of your body.
[00:26:01.040 --> 00:26:04.400] If there's stuff knocking about that shouldn't be there, it's going to get in the way of stuff that should be there.
[00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:15.120] And we do think it might be triggering some changes in the body as well, so that it might be causing some epigenetic changes that could then increase risk for certain diseases and conditions.
[00:26:15.120 --> 00:26:22.400] Are these the plastic chemicals that are said by some people to be hormone adjacent, or by the ones that are hormone replicant?
[00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:24.080] That they play a similar kind of role as hormones?
[00:26:24.080 --> 00:26:29.640] Because that was the stuff that Alex Jones was talking about with the chemicals in the water that turns the frogs gay.
[00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:35.160] That RF Kennedy Jr., when he was on Rogan, was also talking about all these chemicals that are in the water.
[00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:49.000] I think it was RFK, it might have been chalimines or someone, but they were talking about how, well, these chemicals, these plastic chemicals, are mimicking estrogen, which is feminizing all of our sphinel A, which is commonly on thermal paper, receipt paper.
[00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:51.960] Which we have talked about on the show before.
[00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:52.200] Yeah.
[00:26:52.520 --> 00:26:54.040] A long time ago.
[00:26:54.040 --> 00:27:01.080] But it's, yeah, this is also a forever chemical plastic coating, but it's it is different.
[00:27:01.080 --> 00:27:08.440] And I don't think none of the evidence that I've come across says much at all in the way of hormones apart from thyroid potentially.
[00:27:08.440 --> 00:27:12.520] What it's bringing to mind for me is that bit in Superman 3 where she gets to turn into a robot.
[00:27:12.840 --> 00:27:21.240] That's what I'm thinking: it builds up in your system, and eventually you just kind of turn into a big, a big Teflon lady and go and attack Superman.
[00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:22.760] I don't think I've seen Superman 3.
[00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:24.440] And I'll see you on further.
[00:27:24.440 --> 00:27:27.000] Alice definitely hasn't seen Superman 3.
[00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:28.520] Ah, Superman 3.
[00:27:28.840 --> 00:27:30.760] I don't think I've seen any Superman film ever.
[00:27:30.760 --> 00:27:32.840] Not the Christopher Eve first one.
[00:27:32.840 --> 00:27:34.920] See, that's a Patreon exclusive that we could do.
[00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:36.600] Won't make Alice watch Superman.
[00:27:36.600 --> 00:27:39.000] I've seen half of one Batman.
[00:27:39.320 --> 00:27:40.760] Any particular Batman?
[00:27:40.760 --> 00:27:42.840] The one with Maggie Gyllenhaal in it.
[00:27:42.840 --> 00:27:44.760] That's the only Batman you've seen half of.
[00:27:44.760 --> 00:27:46.360] And you've not seen any of the other Batman?
[00:27:46.520 --> 00:27:48.440] And I'll tell you why I know it was that one.
[00:27:48.760 --> 00:27:49.800] Maggie Dylholm wasn't it?
[00:27:49.800 --> 00:27:54.840] Because I spent the whole first 40 minutes saying, where do I know her from?
[00:27:54.840 --> 00:27:56.600] I'm sat watching it with my parents.
[00:27:56.600 --> 00:27:57.480] Where do I know her from?
[00:27:57.480 --> 00:27:58.520] I know her from somewhere.
[00:27:58.520 --> 00:27:59.560] Where do I know her from?
[00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:00.920] Sat with my parents.
[00:28:01.080 --> 00:28:02.520] The secretary, that's where I know her from.
[00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:06.280] This is a sexy film that I don't need my parents to think about me watching.
[00:28:07.560 --> 00:28:09.000] No, Superman 1 was alright.
[00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:10.440] And Superman 2 I thought was better.
[00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:15.280] And then Superman 3 I thought was terrible until I saw Superman 4 and then I had a new appreciation for Superman 3.
[00:28:15.280 --> 00:28:16.000] Gotcha.
[00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:18.160] I think I remember the first one, maybe the second.
[00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:20.480] I've got very little interest in Superman.
[00:28:21.360 --> 00:28:24.000] He's not particularly interesting as a superhero for my mind.
[00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:26.000] Massively overpowered, taller Boy Scout.
[00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:28.320] Yeah, but you know.
[00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:31.920] So PFOA has largely been completely phased out of use.
[00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:37.360] It's certainly not used in non-stick pans anymore, and it's highly regulated in the UK, EU, and the USA.
[00:28:37.360 --> 00:28:43.360] Although Trump has recently threatened to change the drinking water level regulations of PFAS other than PFOA.
[00:28:43.360 --> 00:28:50.640] So he's reassured people that he's not going to change the rules for PFOA, but he will for other PFFPFAs.
[00:28:51.280 --> 00:28:53.440] The problem is that it lingers.
[00:28:53.440 --> 00:29:10.960] So in the late 90s, DuPont were very famously sending their PFOA to landfill and ended up making big settlement payouts to people in the local area who were affected by health issues to themselves and to their livestock as a consequence of the large amounts of PFOA leaching into the ground and water.
[00:29:11.280 --> 00:29:17.520] Subsequently, multiple agencies have found that PFOA in particular is likely to be unsafe for humans and animals.
[00:29:17.520 --> 00:29:32.560] So the United States Environmental Protection Agency concluded in 2022 that following systematic review of over 780 human and animal health studies, they concluded that PFOA exposure elicits adverse non-cancer and cancer health effects.
[00:29:32.560 --> 00:29:42.880] Consistent with EPA's guidelines for carcinogen risk assessment, the EPA concluded that PFOA is likely to be carcinogenic to humans via the oral route of exposure.
[00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:48.800] It's weird that they list that as it has non-cancer and cancer adverse effects.
[00:29:48.800 --> 00:29:52.480] You'd think you'd say cancer and non-cancer.
[00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:54.640] It feels weird to do the not this thing.
[00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:56.640] Oh, and by the way, also that thing.
[00:29:56.720 --> 00:29:57.880] The thing that I just said not.
[00:29:57.880 --> 00:29:59.440] There's also trend with that as well.
[00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:07.560] They found that human studies, so they summarized a lot of studies and they summarized some animal studies, which I haven't focused on here.
[00:30:07.560 --> 00:30:26.680] In the human studies that they looked at, they showed a decreased vaccine response in children, decreased infant birth weight, increased serum lipids, so total cholesterol and LDL, increased blood pressure in adults, increased serum liver enzymes indicative of liver damage in adults, and kidney and testicular cancer in adults.
[00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:35.480] Meanwhile, in November 2023, the International Agency for Research on Cancer, IARC, classified PFOA as carcinogenic to humans.
[00:30:35.480 --> 00:30:39.080] So they moved it from their probably carcinogenic to carcinogenic.
[00:30:39.080 --> 00:30:40.280] So is that group one?
[00:30:40.280 --> 00:30:40.520] Yes.
[00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:41.880] They've put it into.
[00:30:42.520 --> 00:30:49.640] Other PFAS, such as PFTE, are likely much safer to use than PFOA.
[00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:52.680] But it's understandable that some people have concerns.
[00:30:52.680 --> 00:31:02.440] One of the issues is that when a chemical is as ubiquitous as PFAS chemicals are, it gets very hard to assess safety conclusively.
[00:31:02.440 --> 00:31:08.040] We can only compare presence of high levels of those chemicals to low levels of those chemicals.
[00:31:08.840 --> 00:31:10.760] We don't have a no-level baseline.
[00:31:10.760 --> 00:31:12.200] Like lead in the 80s.
[00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:16.680] That lead was everywhere, so it was very hard to find people untainted by degrees of lead.
[00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:17.720] I think, something like that.
[00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:19.720] In addition, this just never goes away.
[00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:22.440] So once it's there, it's there forever.
[00:31:22.760 --> 00:31:32.040] Regulatory bodies, of course, should continue to research these chemicals to understand the impact on human health and the environment and are continuing to do just that.
[00:31:32.040 --> 00:31:40.280] There is a lot of kind of looking more closely at PFAS chemicals just generally and looking at different ones specifically.
[00:31:40.600 --> 00:31:58.000] In the meantime, while I think scaremongering about toxic pans is probably unhelpful, and I don't think anyone needs to throw out the non-stick pans that they already own, I do think it's a reasonable decision to avoid buying a new non-stick pan because it's probably not great for the environment because of these forever chemicals.
[00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:04.560] And while they're probably safe to use, we don't have enough evidence to really know for certain long term.
[00:32:04.560 --> 00:32:08.800] So, you know, it probably doesn't hurt to be a little bit cautious.
[00:32:08.800 --> 00:32:10.720] But then, obviously, how do you cook?
[00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:18.880] Obviously, we've been cooking with non-stick for a really long time before it was invented, but it is like a million times more convenient to cook with non-stick.
[00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:25.040] And that's where these pans that claim to be non-stick while using non-PFAS materials come in.
[00:32:25.040 --> 00:32:32.640] Many of these pans claim to be ceramic, but a recent article in The Guardian points out that there's no legal definition of ceramic.
[00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:33.120] Really?
[00:32:33.120 --> 00:32:34.480] Just like vegetable.
[00:32:35.760 --> 00:32:39.040] There's no legal definition of non-toxic.
[00:32:39.360 --> 00:32:42.640] So you can put that onto your pan.
[00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:49.920] I think the ASA would have something to say if you had a PFAS pan and said it was non-toxic, even if it was PFTE and not PFOA.
[00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:50.480] Yeah, yeah.
[00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:53.920] But it's not a legally defined term.
[00:32:54.240 --> 00:33:04.480] A study published in the journal Food Additives and Contaminants says: recently, new polymeric non-stick, so-called quasi-ceramic coatings have been developed.
[00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:18.800] These new coatings contain inorganic fillers, which improve the mechanical properties of the polymers, fillers including titanium, aluminium, and silicon and clays, and they may contain micro and nanometer particles.
[00:33:19.120 --> 00:33:35.080] That study showed that it's possible for these coatings to release nanoparticles under heat or mechanical degradation, as well as when exposed to what they term simulants, which I assume but they don't explicitly state means things that are a simulation for food.
[00:33:35.080 --> 00:33:43.560] Okay, so when they heat up things that are simulating food, nanoparticles are released into that simulant.
[00:33:43.560 --> 00:33:46.360] They do say this is obviously an early study.
[00:33:46.360 --> 00:33:53.480] What we would want to do next is look when you actually cook real food, but in the first instance, they've started with these simulants.
[00:33:53.480 --> 00:34:05.080] And again, that does not mean that these coatings are unsafe, but it does mean that we're swapping one chemical coating for another chemical coating that is less well studied and that we know is going to be releasing some kind of nanoparticles.
[00:34:05.320 --> 00:34:06.440] Sure, yeah, yeah.
[00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:19.400] It might be the right swap to do, especially if these new coatings aren't forever chemicals which are potentially detrimental to the environment and are something that we can break down and remove from the environment or our bodies, but we don't know yet because they're relatively new.
[00:34:19.400 --> 00:34:22.360] But the other issue is that companies want to keep their formulas secret.
[00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:26.280] They don't want to tell you what is being used in these coatings.
[00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:35.080] The materials they use are proprietary and there's a lack of transparency on what is actually being used to make the non-stick coating, which is kind of understandable.
[00:34:35.080 --> 00:34:44.360] You understand companies wanting to protect their manufacturing processes, but at the same time, we've had a big, massive scare with the DuPont, big settlements.
[00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:48.840] I think it's something that you need to be a bit more prepared to be a bit more transparent on.
[00:34:48.840 --> 00:35:04.120] According to The Guardian, the state of Washington recently ordered quasi-ceramic producers to submit their non-stick ingredients to the state's ecology department as it attempts to learn which chemicals cookware companies are using to replace Teflon or other PFAS or forever chemicals.
[00:35:05.080 --> 00:35:16.240] So swapping to non-non-stick might be the answer, but I think cooking services are always going to impact the foods that we eat from those services.
[00:35:16.240 --> 00:35:20.000] So it might be very easy to just say, okay, well, I'm not going to use, I'm not going to use non-stick.
[00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:21.760] I'm not going to use the ceramic non-stick.
[00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:24.480] I'm going to use just traditional old-style pans.
[00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:28.240] Yeah, with beef tallow, yeah.
[00:35:28.560 --> 00:35:32.080] But obviously, anything we cook from is going to impact the food in some way.
[00:35:32.080 --> 00:35:36.880] And in fact, we know this because for people with anemia, that can be a good thing.
[00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:46.240] For people who have low iron levels in their blood, one recommendation is to cook with cast iron cookware because the iron leaches into your food and you get a boost.
[00:35:46.240 --> 00:35:50.000] And you can even buy little iron fish to put in your pot when you're cooking.
[00:35:50.080 --> 00:35:50.560] You can't see in the middle.
[00:35:50.640 --> 00:35:55.840] When you're cooking in dishes, so that it's a big casserole or something, you can throw your little iron fish in.
[00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:58.800] It's incredibly expensive in the roughly.
[00:35:59.200 --> 00:36:02.800] You just fish it out again afterwards, otherwise you're going to break your teeth.
[00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:04.240] Why is it a fish?
[00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:05.520] Laugh.
[00:36:05.520 --> 00:36:06.320] Okay, fair enough.
[00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:14.000] But try and have something that is non-edible, not in the shape of foodstuffs.
[00:36:15.040 --> 00:36:17.280] It's just a little tiny cartoon fish.
[00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:19.200] It could have been a little bit of white bait or something.
[00:36:20.240 --> 00:36:21.280] A little sardine.
[00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:23.360] And you will break your teeth too in one.
[00:36:23.680 --> 00:36:27.840] Ultimately, I just think it's one of those topics that's full of so many layers of context.
[00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:35.760] I don't think we can buy any coated or uncoated pan for that matter and be 100% confident that it's 100% safe.
[00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:39.520] But I also don't think feeling fearful around the way we cook is helpful for anyone.
[00:36:39.520 --> 00:36:42.640] So I will still be using my quasi-ceramic coated pan.
[00:36:42.640 --> 00:36:46.880] I'll also still be using my old traditional non-stick pans and my cast iron griddle pan.
[00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:52.720] I might, next time I buy a pan, see where we're up to on the data and what's changed in the meantime.
[00:36:52.720 --> 00:36:54.640] And maybe I'll make a different decision.
[00:36:54.640 --> 00:36:57.680] But for now, I think that's all we can do when it comes to the decisions we make.
[00:36:57.680 --> 00:37:03.320] And it's true for, you know, for lots of decisions we make, sometimes we just have to accept that there is no perfect decision.
[00:37:03.640 --> 00:37:10.040] But the best thing we can do is avoid the scaremongering and being pushed into decisions based on that scaremongering.
[00:37:13.880 --> 00:37:16.200] So I've just got back from Holder.
[00:37:16.200 --> 00:37:18.520] Alice, you got back from Paldir as well.
[00:37:18.520 --> 00:37:22.440] We went to Barcelona together with the pub group.
[00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:23.400] Including Matty.
[00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:25.720] Including Matty, who we very deliberately didn't reference last time.
[00:37:25.720 --> 00:37:30.360] I know we felt very, very bad that we could play the cruel tour by naming everyone else other than Matty.
[00:37:31.160 --> 00:37:32.600] Which is a personal joke.
[00:37:32.600 --> 00:37:33.640] Only for Matty's best friend.
[00:37:33.880 --> 00:37:38.600] Only for Matty and several other people around Matty and that he's never got to mention on the show.
[00:37:39.560 --> 00:37:41.160] Despite being a very good friend of ours.
[00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:45.000] A good friend of ours and heavily involved in an awful lot of things that we do.
[00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:47.560] No, we had a really lovely time in Barcelona.
[00:37:47.560 --> 00:37:55.000] We went to this one restaurant that I don't think he was anticipating a group of our size.
[00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:56.200] It was very odd, wasn't it?
[00:37:56.200 --> 00:37:57.560] Because we'd been wandering around.
[00:37:57.560 --> 00:38:00.920] We've been wandering around the old town and we were having a lovely time.
[00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:05.800] And then we got to a point where we're like, shit, we've got dinner booked for whatever time it was, like nine o'clock or something.
[00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:07.080] It was quite a late dinner day.
[00:38:07.080 --> 00:38:09.320] But it was like three o'clock and we're like, well, we need lunch.
[00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:10.920] We can't go until nine without eating.
[00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:13.000] But if we eat much later, then we're going to spoil our tea.
[00:38:13.080 --> 00:38:13.720] It could be a problem.
[00:38:13.720 --> 00:38:17.720] So we're suddenly desperately looking for somewhere to eat and there's like 10 of us.
[00:38:17.720 --> 00:38:18.040] Yeah.
[00:38:18.040 --> 00:38:20.680] Well, no, there was about six of us to start off with and they just kept.
[00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:22.200] Just kept accumulating more and more people.
[00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:23.320] They kept getting more and more.
[00:38:23.480 --> 00:38:26.440] So we walked into this one restaurant that she was like, there's no way we can see you.
[00:38:26.440 --> 00:38:31.720] So we looked back across the footpath and there's another restaurant and we're like, well, it'll do.
[00:38:31.720 --> 00:38:33.080] And we went in there.
[00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:34.600] Is that the name of the restaurant?
[00:38:34.600 --> 00:38:36.280] It might as well have been called It'll Do.
[00:38:36.680 --> 00:38:37.160] It was nice.
[00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:39.240] It was lovely, and the guy running it was lovely.
[00:38:39.240 --> 00:38:40.440] He was very sweet.
[00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:46.320] He was determined that you'd ordered the wrong thing, and he went out of his way to correct you on your particular order.
[00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:53.840] One of my favorite restaurant experiences because I think he was just being really lovely, but you could totally take it as being really passive-aggressive.
[00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:54.240] Yes.
[00:38:54.240 --> 00:38:58.080] Because what he did was, I ordered, I didn't want too much to eat.
[00:38:58.080 --> 00:38:58.400] Yeah.
[00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:05.520] So I'd ordered some bread and then one of two dips that were on the menu to go with the bread, like a yogurty, garlicky dip.
[00:39:05.680 --> 00:39:13.520] And he was like, Look, you must, you're really supposed to order this and the tomatoey dip together because that's how it's supposed to be eaten.
[00:39:13.520 --> 00:39:17.920] And you put the bread and then you put the yogurt on top and then you put the spicy tomatoey dip on top of that.
[00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:20.400] And I was like, sure, but I don't want that.
[00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:24.480] And I'm not going to explain it to this guy, but like for me, that's because that's very risky.
[00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:28.000] If it's a raw tomato-based dip, it could be too tomatoey.
[00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:29.920] It could have big chunks of onion in it.
[00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:32.000] It could have big chunks of raw onion in it.
[00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:33.120] I could struggle to eat it.
[00:39:33.120 --> 00:39:34.160] I just don't want to take the risk.
[00:39:34.160 --> 00:39:36.640] It's just easier to go for the garlic yogurt thing.
[00:39:36.640 --> 00:39:38.160] And he's like, no, you really must have it.
[00:39:38.160 --> 00:39:39.440] And I was like, look, it's fine.
[00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:40.880] I'm just going to have it this way.
[00:39:41.200 --> 00:39:49.200] And when he came with the food, he brought me a little bowl of the spicy tomato dip, which was lovely, but it was still risky.
[00:39:49.200 --> 00:39:50.240] I still didn't want to order it.
[00:39:50.640 --> 00:39:54.160] And I think, didn't he bring it by basically saying, in case you realize you were wrong or something?
[00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:59.840] He was like, I just, I really want you to taste it because I think you'll realize you were like, no, he didn't say it.
[00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:02.000] I think you'll realize you were wrong, but he was like, I really want you to taste it.
[00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:09.840] Since you're the only lady with a table of boys, because it was just me and like eight other bloats at that point before Kat arrived.
[00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:19.840] And then he came back a moment later with a plate of like eight rounds of bread, seven rounds of bread, because he recognized that David had said he was gluten-free.
[00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:35.960] Yes, so he very compassionately brought seven rounds of bread with some yogurt on each one and the spicy dip on each one and gave one piece to every person at the table as if to go, Look, not only am I going to prove to you that you're wrong, I'm going to prove to this entire table of people that you were wrong.
[00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:36.840] It was very strange.
[00:40:37.080 --> 00:40:37.720] I also ordered.
[00:40:37.960 --> 00:40:46.680] I think he was trying to be really sweet and he was just really excited for us to try his food because he then later brought out a dish of salmon tatar and not tatar, what's it called?
[00:40:46.680 --> 00:40:47.480] The cappacho.
[00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:48.360] Capaccio.
[00:40:48.680 --> 00:40:53.640] And various he just kept bringing us little dishes for the things he was very, very nice.
[00:40:53.640 --> 00:41:00.600] But I ordered like the classic potato and egg kind of dish and I was in Spain, but obviously you're in Barcelona.
[00:41:00.600 --> 00:41:00.760] Yes.
[00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:05.080] And they speak Catalan in Barcelona because it's a very specific Catalan independence movement.
[00:41:05.080 --> 00:41:13.640] I've realized between going to Catalan and going to Croatia, I'm on board for pretty much every independence movement other than the UK's because the UK was already fucking independent.
[00:41:13.640 --> 00:41:13.880] Yeah.
[00:41:13.880 --> 00:41:16.520] They're like, take me anywhere and immediately in on their story.
[00:41:16.520 --> 00:41:18.360] Like, yeah, secede from Spain.
[00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:19.880] Catalan independent.
[00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:22.280] Croatia, yes, fight the Yugoslavian war.
[00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:23.080] I can't help myself.
[00:41:23.080 --> 00:41:24.760] I don't know why, but I get kind of caught up in it.
[00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:26.040] So I thought, well, I'll do the nice thing.
[00:41:26.040 --> 00:41:29.080] Like, you order and you try and use Catalan wherever you can.
[00:41:29.080 --> 00:41:30.440] And then it really sort of validates.
[00:41:30.520 --> 00:41:33.800] It's good to validate that you recognize them as an independent state.
[00:41:33.800 --> 00:41:40.920] I ordered my egg and potato dish in Catalan, and he looked at me confused and said, In this restaurant, we speak Spanish.
[00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:45.320] I'd stumbled onto like the most political tortilla of my life.
[00:41:47.800 --> 00:41:49.960] So yeah, I got in his bad books.
[00:41:49.960 --> 00:41:51.640] And he then took it out on you.
[00:41:51.640 --> 00:41:55.080] Well, then at this point, more and more of us are arriving and ordering more food.
[00:41:55.080 --> 00:42:07.480] And like we were one of the that particular meal, we were one of those annoying groups of tables just because people kept arriving and then ordering, and then every time they brought something over, somebody else would be like, oh, well, I've got you, could I order this?
[00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:08.680] And so they were just constantly bringing us.
[00:42:09.080 --> 00:42:11.320] So, we'd grown into this massive table.
[00:42:11.320 --> 00:42:12.760] They're being delightful with us.
[00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:18.160] They're like, Matty had asked at one point, Oh, I'd love to try like a local Matty David's friend, right?
[00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:21.200] Yes, I'd love to try like a local spirit.
[00:42:21.200 --> 00:42:22.160] What do you recommend?
[00:42:22.160 --> 00:42:30.800] And he gave him the local spirit that he recommended, and then he came back, he said, This is just from me, and gave him a different local spirit because he was like chuffed that we were.
[00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:32.960] So, they were really delightful with us.
[00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:38.960] But as he's the guy who's running the place clears the plates, he tries to convince us to order something else.
[00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:41.360] And he's like, Oh, we've got you know desserts and we'll recommend this.
[00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:49.840] And then he says, Oh, we've got creme de Catalan, which I'd wanted to order at some point while we were there because I love creme brulee and it's basically creme brulee.
[00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:52.160] Yeah, so I was like, Fine, I'll order that, we'll have that.
[00:42:52.160 --> 00:42:55.920] And he brought it, it took a while, and then he brought it.
[00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:57.760] And we heard him blowtouching it as well.
[00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:05.200] Yeah, we heard the blowtouch going off as oh, there they are, blow toching the top of the creme de Catalan, like to sort of caramelize the sugar and stuff on top.
[00:43:05.200 --> 00:43:15.760] And I it came and I was like, It's a bit pasty looking, but I'm sure it tastes like the sugar hadn't been fully caramelized because it was still very kind of granular on top as well.
[00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:19.920] But he, yeah, he'd made it from scratch, he'd taken a while, he'd been rushing a bit.
[00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:23.280] It's not three triple six three shit, like you get in every restaurant here, right?
[00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:26.560] Where nobody makes their own desserts and you just buy them off the case.
[00:43:26.560 --> 00:43:30.480] You have to scroll through TikTok to find your video to teach them how to make it and everything, yeah.
[00:43:30.640 --> 00:43:32.560] To get through all the way through the story.
[00:43:32.560 --> 00:43:35.840] So, when I was growing in Catalan, we spoke Spanish in Catalan.
[00:43:36.080 --> 00:43:38.080] Get to the recipe, get to the recipe.
[00:43:38.080 --> 00:43:44.080] So, Eagle takes a bite and is like, Tastes like salt.
[00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:46.160] I was like, That's a bit weird.
[00:43:46.160 --> 00:43:48.880] And so, I tasted it, it does taste quite salty.
[00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:51.200] And then I took just the white stuff on it.
[00:43:51.200 --> 00:43:53.360] I was like, No, that is salt.
[00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:57.320] And I was like, It is supposed to be sugar, though, because it's blowtop.
[00:43:57.200 --> 00:43:58.640] Like, like it's supposed to be sugar, right?
[00:43:58.640 --> 00:44:02.120] So, David asks him, it's supposed to be sugar on top, right?
[00:44:02.120 --> 00:44:04.040] And he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, we cooked the sugar.
[00:43:59.600 --> 00:44:05.800] I was like, it's salt.
[00:44:06.200 --> 00:44:07.640] And he's like, no, no, no, not salt.
[00:44:07.640 --> 00:44:08.040] It's sugar.
[00:44:08.040 --> 00:44:08.520] It's sugar.
[00:44:08.520 --> 00:44:09.560] And like, no, no.
[00:44:10.200 --> 00:44:11.160] Oh, no.
[00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:13.640] And he should have got it off the truck.
[00:44:13.640 --> 00:44:14.040] Should have done.
[00:44:14.440 --> 00:44:15.880] He burst out laughing.
[00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:18.520] He's cackling, realizing he's just fucked up.
[00:44:18.520 --> 00:44:22.120] You know, you see people do like the face palm drag down their face.
[00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:26.280] He did a proper one of those, like one of the biggest one I've ever seen in reality.
[00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:28.920] So he went off and made us some proper crowned claflands.
[00:44:29.240 --> 00:44:33.240] They were lovely, but it was the weirdest restaurant experience.
[00:44:33.720 --> 00:44:35.480] He must have been out there with his blowtorch goes.
[00:44:35.480 --> 00:44:36.120] It's not going.
[00:44:36.120 --> 00:44:37.560] Why is it not fucking going?
[00:44:37.560 --> 00:44:39.560] Normally it melts faster than this.
[00:44:39.560 --> 00:44:41.160] What's the fuck's going on?
[00:44:41.160 --> 00:44:43.240] Yeah, and so I've been on that whole day.
[00:44:43.240 --> 00:44:45.000] I've also just got back for a say from Croatia.
[00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:46.200] I went to Dubrovnik.
[00:44:46.200 --> 00:44:48.840] I wasn't that big of a fan of Dubrovnik for a couple of reasons.
[00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:51.000] It's a very small city, fine.
[00:44:51.000 --> 00:44:53.400] Walled city, fort city, fine.
[00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:56.440] It's built one big straduna street through the middle.
[00:44:56.440 --> 00:45:01.880] And then every other street, you have to go up a load of steps and it's the next street on the side.
[00:45:01.880 --> 00:45:03.400] And then go up more steps and it's the next street.
[00:45:03.400 --> 00:45:07.400] So the whole town is built like an amphitheater almost.
[00:45:07.640 --> 00:45:10.680] And obviously, the place we were staying is on the furthest bit of that.
[00:45:10.680 --> 00:45:12.040] So it's constantly all up and down the steps.
[00:45:12.200 --> 00:45:13.240] That's kind of fine.
[00:45:13.240 --> 00:45:14.600] A couple of reasons it's annoying.
[00:45:14.600 --> 00:45:26.840] One reason is it's got a port, it's on all the cruise ships, which means at about nine o'clock every morning, two cruise ships arrive and 3,000 Americans, like most of the American tourists, just descend into this incredibly small walled city.
[00:45:26.840 --> 00:45:30.600] And then you're like shoulder to shoulder scuffling around, which is kind of a bit of a pain.
[00:45:30.600 --> 00:45:35.880] It also means that all the prices are jacked up through the roof because they've got such a kind of a day trade coming through.
[00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:39.000] The other thing is, Game of Thrones was filmed there.
[00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:39.400] Right.
[00:45:39.400 --> 00:45:41.560] And that's why everyone is going there.
[00:45:41.560 --> 00:45:42.920] It's not why we went there.
[00:45:42.920 --> 00:45:44.640] I fucking hated Game of Thrones.
[00:45:44.640 --> 00:45:45.680] I watched the first series.
[00:45:45.680 --> 00:45:46.720] It was like, this is amazing.
[00:45:46.720 --> 00:45:47.280] You should watch it.
[00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:48.160] I watched the entire thing.
[00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:48.720] I didn't like it.
[00:45:44.600 --> 00:45:51.360] I watched all of the other series just to prove that.
[00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:55.680] So I never had to get to a point where people said, oh, it gets better after series.
[00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:56.320] No, it doesn't.
[00:45:56.320 --> 00:45:57.520] I've watched the entire thing.
[00:45:57.520 --> 00:45:58.800] Fucking hated it all the way through.
[00:45:58.800 --> 00:45:59.760] Thank you very much.
[00:46:00.080 --> 00:46:01.360] You can't change your mind on that.
[00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:07.920] Meanwhile, last year, I went to another place that accidentally went to another place that is used for Game of Thrones filming.
[00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:10.240] But the other way around, I hadn't seen Game of Thrones at that point.
[00:46:10.240 --> 00:46:12.320] I've subsequently watched Game of Thrones.
[00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:19.440] And we went, there's this small town in Morocco that's used for some of the filming, only a very small amount of the filming.
[00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:29.200] But as Warren and I were sat watching this episode where it was filmed in that particular town, I looked at it and I went, I've been there.
[00:46:29.200 --> 00:46:30.400] I know I've been there.
[00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:34.880] And then I googled it and it was like, it is exactly where we went like a few months ago.
[00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:37.440] We went April last year that is used filming.
[00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:38.160] But that wasn't busy.
[00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:40.080] I mean, it was a bit quicker.
[00:46:40.240 --> 00:46:41.440] I haven't found out about it fully.
[00:46:42.720 --> 00:46:46.640] There were at least three official merchandise shops for Game of Thrones in the town.
[00:46:46.640 --> 00:46:49.680] You could go and sit on the Iron Throne on an island.
[00:46:49.680 --> 00:46:50.160] So we did that.
[00:46:50.160 --> 00:46:53.760] There's a picture of Nicola looking completely bored and unimpressed on an Iron Throne.
[00:46:53.760 --> 00:47:00.160] On that same island with the Iron Throne, it's overrun by wild peacocks who are not scared of anybody to a point where they'll just wander right up.
[00:47:00.160 --> 00:47:04.480] And I've got a great series of photos of peacocks wandering over to Nicola, spotting that she has a sandwich.
[00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:07.120] And Nicola said to me, I'm worried he's going to snatch my sandwich.
[00:47:07.200 --> 00:47:08.320] I was like, I'm sure it's fine.
[00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:08.960] I'm sure they're not.
[00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:09.600] They just look at it.
[00:47:11.120 --> 00:47:12.400] He fucking did go for the sandwich.
[00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:12.960] It was incredible.
[00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:16.240] It was a proper like he got the little bit of the bag, and she pulled it away.
[00:47:16.240 --> 00:47:20.560] And I've got a little picture of the seagull looking like nift in the background as he was kind of cheating.
[00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:33.480] I was surprised by that because, like, last year when Nicola and Alice and I, we went to the South Lake Safari Zoo, and as we were sitting there eating our lunch, peacocks everywhere, they were there milling around, they were quiet, they were lovely peacocks, they were brilliant.
[00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:38.840] You've managed to get the kind of dick peacock agro peacocks, it wasn't at all.
[00:47:39.240 --> 00:47:40.200] But that's true.
[00:47:40.200 --> 00:47:48.680] Like, you see seagulls in most places, and seagulls are not great birds, but in most places, they at least stay away from the humans.
[00:47:48.680 --> 00:47:54.760] You go to the seaside, and they're fucking aggro-will steal a plate of chips off a toddler.
[00:47:54.760 --> 00:47:59.160] Oh, yeah, yeah, they're worse than your dogs in terms of like targeting kids.
[00:47:59.160 --> 00:48:10.680] We did see a lot of seagulls when we went on a board trip where we had an amazing fish, and the seagulls learned to follow the board, two boards next to each other, and they would skip between the two boards in order to try and maximize their chance of getting uh getting anything.
[00:48:10.680 --> 00:48:12.520] Anyway, the rest of the time, we had a lovely trip.
[00:48:12.520 --> 00:48:14.200] We went to split in various places.
[00:48:14.200 --> 00:48:18.200] On the way back, I had possibly the worst flight experience of my life.
[00:48:18.200 --> 00:48:27.400] We were supposed to be flying back at nine o'clock, split airports, very small, but it's so hot during the day that we're like, we'll just head to the airport about half six or so.
[00:48:27.400 --> 00:48:30.840] I know it's a little bit early, but they say get there a bit earlier anyway.
[00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:35.000] And we've got to go through the stupid Brexit passport line, so you never know how long that's going to take.
[00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:39.240] So, we'll get there, we'll have a bite to eat, and then we'll get on the plane half eight.
[00:48:39.240 --> 00:48:40.280] It says boarding clauses.
[00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:42.280] So, they'll be boarding us at like eight o'clock or something.
[00:48:42.280 --> 00:48:43.480] So, it's not gonna be too bad.
[00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:45.880] The plane's delayed by 45 minutes to begin with.
[00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:46.920] That's annoying.
[00:48:46.920 --> 00:49:01.960] As we're going through security, there is a drunken Irish girl on the floor in tears before the security line, that the bit where you actually do your boarding pass, just on the floor, weeping, wailing, top of her lungs, real distraught.
[00:49:01.960 --> 00:49:04.360] But she's just there with the authorities around her.
[00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:05.720] I'm like, what the fuck is going on here?
[00:49:05.720 --> 00:49:07.640] And she's like, not sure what's going on.
[00:49:07.640 --> 00:49:20.800] As we get into the security line, another Irish girl who's equally drunk, wearing what appears to be lingerie, I think she just got off the beach or something, but it's like she's falling out of a very red, lacy top, and that's about all she's wearing.
[00:49:20.800 --> 00:49:23.360] It's like, fuck me, you're going to be freezing when you get back to Ireland.
[00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:31.040] She's storming away backwards along the line, yelling obscenities at the security staff for having plucked her out of the security line to go and see to her friend.
[00:49:31.040 --> 00:49:33.120] I told her she's got a fucking board in pass.
[00:49:33.120 --> 00:49:34.400] Why am I having to come and do this?
[00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:35.440] This is fucking ridiculous.
[00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:38.880] Like, don't yell obscenities at the security staff.
[00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:40.640] So, like, oh God, this is a nightmare.
[00:49:40.640 --> 00:49:42.880] Anyway, we go through, we sat in our terminal bit.
[00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:45.920] She follows us into the terminal bit because there's a flight to Dublin.
[00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:47.360] And so she's walking around there.
[00:49:47.360 --> 00:49:50.160] She's clearly like going up to the bar, buying whatever wine they've got there.
[00:49:50.160 --> 00:49:51.120] She's wandering around.
[00:49:51.120 --> 00:49:54.400] She's talking to the security staff who then rush off, try and find another of her friends.
[00:49:54.400 --> 00:49:55.360] It's this fucking drama.
[00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:58.160] And everyone's like, Jesus Christ, this is a mess.
[00:49:58.160 --> 00:50:01.120] We're like, thank fuck, she's not coming to Manchester.
[00:50:01.120 --> 00:50:02.240] We get on the plane.
[00:50:02.240 --> 00:50:03.520] We're like, I hope she's not in the mind.
[00:50:03.600 --> 00:50:04.560] We didn't see her getting in our line.
[00:50:04.560 --> 00:50:05.440] So, yeah, we're fine.
[00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:06.640] We're sat in row two.
[00:50:06.640 --> 00:50:08.080] We're like, oh, thank God for that.
[00:50:08.080 --> 00:50:11.360] We're just about to shut the door, get the last passengers on.
[00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:12.880] She walks on, sits in row one.
[00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:13.760] She sat in front of us.
[00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:15.760] Like, oh, this is bad.
[00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:17.200] And then there's a seat next to me.
[00:50:17.200 --> 00:50:23.360] And her friend, the one who was in tears on the floor, walks from the back of the plane all the way to the front and sits next to me.
[00:50:23.360 --> 00:50:24.880] I'm like, oh, this is horrible.
[00:50:24.880 --> 00:50:26.320] So this is going to be a bad flight.
[00:50:26.320 --> 00:50:31.440] But we don't take off because the cabin crew then gather around them and say, We've had a word with the pilot.
[00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:33.680] They've been a lot of people expressing concerns.
[00:50:33.920 --> 00:50:35.440] We think you're too drunk to fly.
[00:50:35.440 --> 00:50:36.480] You have to get off the plane.
[00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:37.600] You are not flying tonight.
[00:50:37.600 --> 00:50:38.480] They've deplaned them.
[00:50:38.480 --> 00:50:39.280] Deep plane them.
[00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:39.600] Wow.
[00:50:39.600 --> 00:50:40.880] And she's like, What do you mean?
[00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:42.560] You're not flying tonight.
[00:50:42.560 --> 00:50:43.040] Why is that?
[00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:43.760] You're drunk.
[00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:44.320] I'm not drunk.
[00:50:44.320 --> 00:50:45.440] I haven't had a single drink.
[00:50:46.160 --> 00:50:48.160] We saw you buying wine in the terminal.
[00:50:48.160 --> 00:50:51.200] You were drunkenly shouting at the, you should never have been able to get on the plane.
[00:50:51.200 --> 00:50:52.800] She's yelling all sorts of mess.
[00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:53.440] I'm not drunk.
[00:50:53.440 --> 00:50:56.960] It's just that earlier today, I found out my granddaughter might have cancer, actually.
[00:50:56.520 --> 00:50:59.880] Actually, it's like, I don't think this is going to persuade the pilot, to be honest.
[00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:02.280] They're saying, look, legally, we can't do it.
[00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:04.280] There's a point where they're going to have to get their bags out.
[00:51:04.280 --> 00:51:04.920] So, which one?
[00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:06.520] So, the camera crew, like, which bags are yours?
[00:50:59.600 --> 00:51:07.080] I'm not getting off.
[00:51:07.240 --> 00:51:08.200] I'm not getting off.
[00:51:08.200 --> 00:51:08.840] I'm fine.
[00:51:08.840 --> 00:51:09.720] I haven't been drinking.
[00:51:09.720 --> 00:51:10.760] I'll be good as gold.
[00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:11.880] They're like, no, which are your bags?
[00:51:11.880 --> 00:51:12.360] Which are your bags?
[00:51:12.360 --> 00:51:12.920] They won't tell us.
[00:51:12.920 --> 00:51:14.280] At which point, Nicola chimes in.
[00:51:14.520 --> 00:51:15.800] They were the blue bags, actually.
[00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:17.480] Don't do that.
[00:51:17.800 --> 00:51:20.760] So, anyway, girl in the red eventually gets dragged off.
[00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:22.920] The girl next to us is like, well, can I come with her?
[00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:24.840] Her third friend is like, I'm not getting off with you.
[00:51:24.840 --> 00:51:25.560] I've got work in the morning.
[00:51:25.720 --> 00:51:25.960] I'm staying.
[00:51:26.040 --> 00:51:26.520] I've been going home.
[00:51:26.680 --> 00:51:27.640] I'm staying here the entire time.
[00:51:27.640 --> 00:51:30.200] So the girl next to me decides she's going to get off as well.
[00:51:30.200 --> 00:51:34.280] She's now on her phone to this girl's mum, still stood up in the plane, hasn't got off.
[00:51:34.280 --> 00:51:36.280] The other ones in the doorway were still arguing.
[00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:37.320] Nothing is happening here.
[00:51:37.640 --> 00:51:39.320] It's now getting to about 10 o'clock.
[00:51:39.320 --> 00:51:41.240] It was supposed to be taken off at nine.
[00:51:41.240 --> 00:51:42.360] We're in nine.
[00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:43.480] So we're like, we're an hour delayed.
[00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:44.120] It's gone past that.
[00:51:44.120 --> 00:51:47.080] It's like half half 10 or something like this.
[00:51:47.080 --> 00:51:48.840] It's getting longer and longer.
[00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:50.760] Eventually, they get the red lady off.
[00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:53.240] The girl who was crying, she stood in the doorway.
[00:51:53.240 --> 00:51:53.960] She's not off yet.
[00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:54.840] They were like, where's your bags?
[00:51:54.920 --> 00:51:57.560] And she's like, I had to put them halfway down the plane.
[00:51:57.560 --> 00:52:00.200] So the cabin crew have to go down the plane trying to find her bags.
[00:52:00.200 --> 00:52:02.920] And then they realize she boarded the back of the plane.
[00:52:02.920 --> 00:52:03.320] Yes.
[00:52:03.320 --> 00:52:08.360] She tried to sit in several of the seats and tried to put a bag in several of the bins above the seats.
[00:52:08.360 --> 00:52:11.320] And she'd been the toilet at the back of the plane and she sat at the front.
[00:52:11.320 --> 00:52:18.040] So now she's a security risk because they get her off, but they don't know which cabinet, which boxes, which overhead bins she's been looking at.
[00:52:18.040 --> 00:52:18.600] Yes.
[00:52:18.600 --> 00:52:23.000] And if you were going to blow up a plane, that's an excellent way of getting away from the plane.
[00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:27.000] Put the bomb on the plane somewhere, go to your seat, get kicked off.
[00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:29.400] So they have to then go through checking everyone's bags.
[00:52:29.560 --> 00:52:30.760] This is your bag, this is your bag.
[00:52:30.760 --> 00:52:31.320] That doesn't work.
[00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:33.480] They have to disembark everybody.
[00:52:33.480 --> 00:52:35.080] We all have to get off, take everything.
[00:52:35.080 --> 00:52:38.840] It's if you don't take everything off this plane, we will destroy anything.
[00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:40.520] We keep blowing up anything left behind.
[00:52:40.520 --> 00:52:41.000] Yeah, exactly.
[00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:42.120] So we're now fucking hell.
[00:52:42.200 --> 00:52:43.480] So it's quarter to 11.
[00:52:43.480 --> 00:52:44.520] We were taking off at nine.
[00:52:44.520 --> 00:52:54.640] We're now all stood just outside on the tarmac by the plane while several sets of authorities, every staircar in Split Airport, surrounds this plane for some reason.
[00:52:54.640 --> 00:52:56.000] One of them was to get people off.
[00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:57.440] Like two of them, one of them was already on.
[00:52:57.440 --> 00:52:59.120] The other one was there to get people out of the back.
[00:52:59.120 --> 00:53:01.680] The others are just rubbernecking on what the fuck is going on.
[00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:04.560] Then there was somebody with mobility issues.
[00:53:04.560 --> 00:53:09.920] So rather than get them off, they did the thing where they bring the thing on a lift to plug them onto it.
[00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:10.800] So they have to go into there.
[00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:12.800] There's several sets of authorities coming around.
[00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:13.920] Eventually, we all get back on.
[00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:16.480] We're then waiting to hear whether we're going to get away or not.
[00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:20.000] Eventually, we take off at about 11, quarter, quarter past 11.
[00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:22.000] We were two, we're two over two hours delayed at that point.
[00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:23.280] So fuck me.
[00:53:23.280 --> 00:53:24.640] Okay, so we're in the air.
[00:53:24.640 --> 00:53:27.040] And then a woman has a medical emergency.
[00:53:27.200 --> 00:53:31.120] And in the air, like, well, after like half an hour of it, she staggers away to the front.
[00:53:31.120 --> 00:53:33.680] She has to sit in the emergency line.
[00:53:33.840 --> 00:53:35.120] We've got several people gathered around her.
[00:53:35.120 --> 00:53:36.960] She's on the gas mask and stuff.
[00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:42.000] And there's a part of me that thinks, oh, God, we're going to be diverted to the nearest hospital at this point.
[00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:44.320] So it was the most chaotic flight we've ever had.
[00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:52.240] I think we were supposed to land at something like half 11, and we landed at 10 past one and then had to drive back from Manchester.
[00:53:52.240 --> 00:53:54.800] And I got to bed about quarter to three.
[00:53:54.800 --> 00:53:58.640] And then half seven, the builders arrived to finish off the bathroom that hasn't been finished in a week.
[00:53:58.640 --> 00:53:59.680] Oh, fucking hell.
[00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:02.240] So I've had a very relaxing holiday.
[00:54:07.040 --> 00:54:14.560] So Liverpool Skeptics and the Pub, we have an event this evening in the CASA on Hope Street, and that is going to be Joni Clark.
[00:54:14.560 --> 00:54:18.720] Yes, so Joni is going to be talking about the history of trans and non-binary experience.
[00:54:18.720 --> 00:54:28.160] So, Joni's someone that actually, Kat, Kat Ford, and our other board member, Bob, went along and actually saw at an event, I think was it in Glastonbury or around the Glastonbury kind of area?
[00:54:28.160 --> 00:54:28.800] I think it was, yes.
[00:54:28.960 --> 00:54:34.840] Which was specifically pushing back against things like QAnon and the light paper and various things.
[00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:42.760] And Joni was speaking there about the way that trans people have been scapegoated in this kind of alternative conspiracist media landscape.
[00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:45.080] And Kat and Bob thought that Joni's talk was so excellent.
[00:54:45.080 --> 00:54:47.240] We had to get them up to Liverpool to give a talk.
[00:54:47.560 --> 00:54:50.600] I had a chat just to explain what we were about.
[00:54:50.600 --> 00:54:51.480] I'm really excited.
[00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:53.240] I think it should be a really, really interesting talk.
[00:54:53.240 --> 00:54:59.320] I think it's one of those where Joni is very happy to talk about anything about this whole topic.
[00:54:59.320 --> 00:55:03.160] So it's not like, oh, this bit's off limits, or I'm worried about you talking about this, or I won't answer questions about that.
[00:55:03.160 --> 00:55:06.440] It's just like, look, if people have got questions, let's talk about it.
[00:55:06.440 --> 00:55:07.720] Let's just have a proper conversation.
[00:55:07.720 --> 00:55:14.840] If they're good for your questions, we will talk about anything to do with anything people aren't sure about or want to want to know more about.
[00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:20.600] So, yeah, I think it should be a really, really interesting talk at a time when clearly we need people to be understanding these issues.
[00:55:20.600 --> 00:55:28.040] And we also need people to understand for any kind of concerns, reasonable otherwise, people might feel that they've seen expressed in other parts of media.
[00:55:28.040 --> 00:55:35.880] This is a topic that is being deliberately used as a wedge issue, as a scaremongering, scapegoating issue, to drive people to more extreme positions.
[00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:39.640] So that's something I think is really, really important for us as skeptics to be aware of and to be tackling.
[00:55:39.640 --> 00:55:40.200] Yeah.
[00:55:40.200 --> 00:55:42.360] So that's going to be in the CASA on Hope Street.
[00:55:42.440 --> 00:55:43.960] That's going to be from 7:30.
[00:55:43.960 --> 00:55:46.280] And if you're in the Liverpool area, you should definitely come along to that.
[00:55:46.280 --> 00:55:47.400] It's going to be a brilliant time.
[00:55:47.400 --> 00:55:48.920] I won't be there for that one because I'm going to be away.
[00:55:48.920 --> 00:55:51.320] I'm going to be away on my holling days.
[00:55:51.560 --> 00:55:53.560] But it sounds like it's going to be a fantastic time.
[00:55:53.560 --> 00:55:57.000] And I'm quite jealous that you folks are going to get to see this brilliant talk.
[00:55:57.000 --> 00:55:57.320] And I'm not sure.
[00:55:57.400 --> 00:55:58.120] It should be excellent.
[00:55:58.440 --> 00:56:00.280] We should also give a plug for QED.
[00:56:00.280 --> 00:56:03.560] So, the final ever QED is taking place this autumn.
[00:56:03.560 --> 00:56:07.880] The QED is going to be, I've forgotten the dates now, I've not 25th and 26th of October.
[00:56:07.880 --> 00:56:17.200] QED is going to be on the 25th and 26th of October, 2025, in the Mercure Piccadilly Hotel, which where we've done almost every QED now.
[00:56:17.600 --> 00:56:22.080] We had a little holiday off at a different hotel, but it's where we've done almost all of the QEDs.
[00:56:22.080 --> 00:56:23.920] Tickets for that are hurtling out.
[00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:31.200] We've already sold an obscene number of tickets, and we've got every anticipation that they're going to be selling out within an order of weeks.
[00:56:31.200 --> 00:56:34.880] Yeah, this is going to be the biggest QED we've had at least, well, certainly since the pandemic.
[00:56:35.200 --> 00:56:36.000] Certainly since, yeah.
[00:56:36.160 --> 00:56:39.120] One of the biggest we've ever, ever done, which is great.
[00:56:39.120 --> 00:56:44.080] So, if you would like to come along to QED, you can find more information about it at qedcon.org.
[00:56:44.080 --> 00:56:48.720] Tickets are £179, and as I say, they are going out fast.
[00:56:48.720 --> 00:56:53.040] So, you should get your skates on and buy your tickets for the final ever QED.
[00:56:53.040 --> 00:56:55.600] We can probably, I mean, we haven't discussed this.
[00:56:55.600 --> 00:56:57.440] We're going to do a live show, though, right?
[00:56:57.440 --> 00:56:58.400] I think we're going to do a live show.
[00:56:58.480 --> 00:56:59.280] We're going to do a live show.
[00:56:59.520 --> 00:57:01.520] I don't think we have a choice at this stage.
[00:57:01.520 --> 00:57:06.400] No, I think we'll be brow-beaten into it if we don't do that.
[00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:08.720] So, I think we're going to be doing a live show.
[00:57:08.720 --> 00:57:15.440] So, that's an exclusive for Skeptics with a K listeners, is that there will be a Skeptics with a K live show.
[00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:20.080] As I say, you should go to QDCon.org and pick up your QED tickets as soon as you can.
[00:57:20.080 --> 00:57:29.120] If you enjoy the show and you like what we do, you can support the show by going to patreon.com forward slash skeptics with a K, where you can donate as much or as little as you like.
[00:57:29.120 --> 00:57:30.880] All donations are greatly appreciated.
[00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:36.640] It helps us do the show, helps us pay for the production costs and things like that, helps us keep doing what we're doing.
[00:57:36.640 --> 00:57:43.840] And in exchange for that, you will get access to an ad-free version of this show, which I'm given to understand is a very valuable thing for people.
[00:57:44.080 --> 00:57:46.160] Some people do not want to listen to the ads.
[00:57:46.480 --> 00:57:49.200] Some people seem thrilled that they get to tell us about the terrible ads that we're doing.
[00:57:49.360 --> 00:57:50.000] Which is excellent.
[00:57:50.000 --> 00:57:50.960] I love that people do that.
[00:57:50.960 --> 00:57:51.520] It's brilliant.
[00:57:51.520 --> 00:57:52.800] It's absolutely what we want.
[00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:56.160] If you do hear a terrible ad, by all means, let us know.
[00:57:56.160 --> 00:58:05.640] Yeah, and the other thing you can do, actually, if you don't want to support the show financially on Patreon, support the work that we're doing, you can, of course, share the show and you can do reviews and stuff like that.
[00:58:05.640 --> 00:58:07.880] We probably don't really ask for reviews and things like that.
[00:58:08.200 --> 00:58:11.560] We kind of used to do that and maybe we haven't done it for quite a while.
[00:58:11.560 --> 00:58:17.960] But every time you leave us a review or you share it, you're going to find us to head us towards new listeners who might find this kind of stuff really useful.
[00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:25.880] So if you do love the show, by all means, tell people about it and tell people what you like about it because that'll help us get new people into SWAC.
[00:58:25.880 --> 00:58:37.880] And of course, if you like the work that's done by the Merseyside Skeptic Society, you can also support them on their Patreon, which is patreon.com forward slash Merseyskeptics, where you will also get an ad-free version of this show.
[00:58:38.200 --> 00:58:40.360] Aside from that, then I think that's all we have time for.
[00:58:40.360 --> 00:58:40.920] I think it is.
[00:58:40.920 --> 00:58:43.640] All that remains then is for me to thank Marsh for coming along today.
[00:58:43.640 --> 00:58:44.120] Cheers.
[00:58:44.120 --> 00:58:45.080] Thank you to Alice.
[00:58:45.080 --> 00:58:45.560] Thank you.
[00:58:45.560 --> 00:58:48.280] We have been Skeptics with a K, and we will see you next time.
[00:58:48.280 --> 00:58:49.000] Bye now.
[00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:49.880] Bye.
[00:58:54.680 --> 00:58:59.800] Skeptics with a K is produced by Skeptic Media in association with the Merseyside Skeptic Society.
[00:58:59.800 --> 00:59:08.840] For questions or comments, email podcast at skepticswithakay.org and you can find out more about Merseyside Skeptics at merseyside skeptics.org.uk.