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[00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.200] I chose FDU for my education for numerous reasons.
[00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:12.000] The first being the great reputation that the Silverman College of Business has, the amazing culture with the faculty and staff, and also the very convenient location to New York City.
[00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:16.320] I seized the moment at FDU and now I'm in the career of my dreams.
[00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:21.840] Ford was built on the belief that the world doesn't get to decide what you're capable of.
[00:00:21.840 --> 00:00:22.560] You do.
[00:00:22.880 --> 00:00:26.320] So ask yourself, can you or can't you?
[00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:31.120] Can you load up a Ford F-150 and build your dream with sweat and steel?
[00:00:31.120 --> 00:00:34.800] Can you chase thrills and conquer curves in a Mustang?
[00:00:34.800 --> 00:00:39.360] Can you take a Bronco to where the map ends and adventure begins?
[00:00:39.360 --> 00:00:43.360] Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right.
[00:00:43.360 --> 00:00:44.240] Ready?
[00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:46.240] Set Ford.
[00:00:52.640 --> 00:01:00.960] It is Thursday, the 22nd of May, 2025, and you're listening to Skeptics with a K, the podcast for science, reason, and critical thinking.
[00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:12.960] Skeptics with a K is produced by Skeptic Media in association with the Merseyside Skeptic Society, a non-profit organization for the promotion of scientific skepticism on Merseyside around the UK and internationally.
[00:01:12.960 --> 00:01:14.400] I'm your host, Mike Hall.
[00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:15.760] With me today is Marsh.
[00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:16.400] Hello.
[00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:17.280] And Alice.
[00:01:17.280 --> 00:01:18.400] Hello.
[00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:21.440] So I'm currently having my bathroom redone.
[00:01:21.440 --> 00:01:22.560] Well, that's exciting.
[00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:24.400] As we sit in my office recording.
[00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:27.760] We've had a year collectively of just renovations.
[00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:29.280] A lot of renovations going on.
[00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:30.160] Yes, we have.
[00:01:30.160 --> 00:01:30.880] That is very true.
[00:01:30.880 --> 00:01:32.400] But we're sat here in my office.
[00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:34.560] We're sometimes recording in my living room.
[00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:34.720] Yeah.
[00:01:34.720 --> 00:01:36.240] We're currently recording in my office.
[00:01:36.240 --> 00:01:39.200] My office is the wall adjacent to the bathroom.
[00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:47.520] So I've spent the entire day with men doing things about a foot and a half from my head with loud various implements and things.
[00:01:47.520 --> 00:01:49.600] This wasn't meant to be a what I've been up to, by the way.
[00:01:49.600 --> 00:01:51.360] It's just this is what I've been up to.
[00:01:51.360 --> 00:01:56.080] But it is also what my story is going to be about.
[00:01:56.080 --> 00:02:07.800] As I was actually writing this, there was a man using a significantly sized drill to chip and chisel away some of these like horrible, awful mosaic tiles that were on the floor of my bathroom.
[00:02:07.800 --> 00:02:08.440] Oh, yeah.
[00:02:08.440 --> 00:02:09.720] That were there when we moved in.
[00:02:09.720 --> 00:02:11.480] They're like rough to the feel.
[00:02:11.480 --> 00:02:12.280] They were there when we moved.
[00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:15.000] We hated them from day one, and day one was 11 years ago.
[00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:19.320] And they disappeared about two hours ago.
[00:02:19.320 --> 00:02:22.840] I do find the process of having worked on my house like incredibly stressful.
[00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:24.840] I know you're unbearable at the moment.
[00:02:25.320 --> 00:02:27.160] It's only day one and you're unbearable.
[00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:30.520] No, it's the thing is, my bathroom was being done for three weeks.
[00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:32.120] It's not even the disruption.
[00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:33.320] And I don't have a second bathroom.
[00:02:33.320 --> 00:02:34.040] You don't have a second bathroom.
[00:02:34.200 --> 00:02:35.160] I do have a second bathroom.
[00:02:35.160 --> 00:02:35.560] I do.
[00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:38.440] I need to get him to turn the electric back on in my shower downstairs.
[00:02:38.440 --> 00:02:39.240] Separate question.
[00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:40.760] It's not even the disruption that bothers me.
[00:02:40.760 --> 00:02:42.920] It's the pressure of making sure you get everything right.
[00:02:42.920 --> 00:02:44.840] That's a bit that plays on my brain.
[00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:51.560] Like all of the what-ifs and the things that could go wrong and things you should have asked them about and things you should have considered before they started.
[00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:58.360] And like the process of picking out things for the bathroom is just stressful in its sheer tediousness, the boringness.
[00:02:58.360 --> 00:03:02.760] I've had to have genuine opinions on bathroom sinks.
[00:03:02.760 --> 00:03:06.360] Like for Americans, the basin in the bathroom, I had to have an opinion on that.
[00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:09.480] I don't have an opinion on a bathroom sink.
[00:03:09.480 --> 00:03:09.880] No.
[00:03:09.880 --> 00:03:12.120] In my head, you've got a sink.
[00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:13.000] You need to have a sink.
[00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:15.080] You go to the sink shop and you say, one, please.
[00:03:15.480 --> 00:03:18.200] And they give you a sink and then you get a sink.
[00:03:18.200 --> 00:03:19.000] I agree.
[00:03:19.720 --> 00:03:24.760] I have opinions both on bathroom sinks and on kitchen sinks, and they are entirely pragmatic opinions.
[00:03:24.760 --> 00:03:30.200] In that, my parents had their bathroom done a while ago, the family bathroom, the room that I would use when I visit.
[00:03:30.200 --> 00:03:33.120] And they had a really shallow bathroom sink.
[00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:36.440] Put in one of those, like, really long and wide ones, but it's like really, really shallow.
[00:03:36.440 --> 00:03:37.720] Shallow, yeah, like a big trough.
[00:03:37.720 --> 00:03:43.320] It's a fucking nightmare if you want to wash your face or brush your teeth, especially because the water doesn't get to the whole part of the sink.
[00:03:43.320 --> 00:03:48.240] So if you spit your toothpaste in the wrong place, like you've got to get a cup to like rinse the toothpaste.
[00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:49.200] It's ridiculous.
[00:03:49.200 --> 00:03:49.680] It's awful.
[00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:50.720] So my opinion is not those.
[00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:59.520] Well, I would never have that because I don't have that amount of space as the country bathroom that you have in your parents' pile, country pile that your parents have.
[00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:02.560] I'll say it's not that big a house, but it's pretty big.
[00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:11.520] But my kitchen opinion is, my kitchen sink opinion is those beautiful ceramic farmhouse style sinks.
[00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:13.520] Beautiful, stunning sinks.
[00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:14.720] Absolutely gorgeous.
[00:04:15.200 --> 00:04:16.240] Completely impractical.
[00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:16.960] Massively sold.
[00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:18.560] Yeah, I hate them.
[00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:19.680] Anybody's life who has them.
[00:04:19.840 --> 00:04:22.000] It's going to drop something in it and it's going to crack.
[00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:22.560] Yes.
[00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:27.120] And so when we had our kitchen done a few years ago, it was very much a, yeah, I think they're gorgeous.
[00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:29.840] I would like a plastic sink.
[00:04:29.840 --> 00:04:32.400] Not plastic, but you know, like the fancy plastic that they use these days.
[00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:34.160] I want something durable.
[00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:34.800] Yeah.
[00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:35.840] So yeah, this is the stuff.
[00:04:35.840 --> 00:04:36.320] There's options.
[00:04:36.320 --> 00:04:40.720] There's shape and size and taps and plugs and pedestals and vanity cabinets and colours and finishes.
[00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:45.840] And I just want water to come out when I wanted to and then go away when I'm done with it.
[00:04:45.840 --> 00:04:46.080] Yeah.
[00:04:46.080 --> 00:04:48.240] That's all I care about in the sink of the bathroom.
[00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:51.680] Those are my requirements for any sink, bathroom or otherwise.
[00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:53.360] Have water in when I want.
[00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:54.960] Stop having water when I decide.
[00:04:55.280 --> 00:04:56.160] Easy to clean.
[00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:56.800] Easy to clean.
[00:04:56.800 --> 00:04:58.080] Okay, I'll take easy to clean.
[00:04:58.080 --> 00:05:03.120] But maybe Facebook is aware that I've been thinking about bathrooms and water supplies lately.
[00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:08.400] Or maybe it's completely unrelated, but I was just looking for a contrived way of getting to what I want to talk about today.
[00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:18.480] But either way, I was scrolling Facebook and I came across an advert that is definitely sink-related enough to make the preamble their worthwhile texture rather than needless digression.
[00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:27.280] Because it was for a product that looks essentially, the picture was for essentially, it looked like a pair of flasks, like flasks that you'd have tea in, like these sort of like canister type things.
[00:05:27.280 --> 00:05:28.480] One was red, one was black.
[00:05:28.480 --> 00:06:53.320] They both had water 2 written on both of them and they were under a sink plumbed into piping like the sequel yeah they were both the sequel yes absolutely yeah okay they were plumbed into piping and the ad had sticky notes on it which read the best underlined way to filter fluoride and chlorine reduces 98.4% of fluoride 95.28% of chlorine it's not ideal though is it really because well because your teeth are gonna rot out your face yeah yeah so this is this is the problem so these are the water 2 water filters which you hook into your water supply on sort of the water as it comes into your sink right before you need it you do that and they'll remove all that nasty chlorine and fluoride from your water in fact this is a the water 2 fluoride filter add-on is what we're talking about that is an add-on to the existing device which is called the water one no it's called the water 2 2.0 starter kit it's the original device so the point is this is the next generation of of tap water i think it's the next generation of their products but i don't know what they called their original product actually they might have called it a water 2 and then they called this the water 2 2.0 exactly yeah so water 2 is the the the brand name is about next generation water and this is this is actually a second so the how to put this the water 2.
[00:06:53.560 --> 00:07:04.160] water 2 2.0 starter kit is their second product second generation of that second generation and now they've added a fluoride yeah it's a misguided name in a lot of ways because it's very confusing.
[00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:06.480] The sequel is never better than the original.
[00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:10.720] No, it's pretty accurate anyway it is a rare day that the sequel is better.
[00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:12.960] Like Terminator 2, I think, is the only one i can think of.
[00:07:12.960 --> 00:07:13.360] Yeah, that's right.
[00:07:13.520 --> 00:07:15.920] Whether the sequel is probably better than the original.
[00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:17.520] It's not a widespread thing.
[00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:20.320] No, well, I'm not sure the water here is better than the original.
[00:07:20.320 --> 00:07:28.080] But if you don't, so you to get the Water 2 fluoride filter add-on, you have to already have a Water 2 2.0 starter kit filter.
[00:07:28.080 --> 00:07:31.920] If you don't have that, you can buy them bundled together for £228.
[00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:35.280] Or if you act right now, just £199.
[00:07:35.280 --> 00:07:41.760] The filter in it only lasts for a year because the filter is going to clog up with stuff and the activated various bits in it are going to lose effectiveness.
[00:07:41.760 --> 00:07:45.280] At which point, it's another £99 per year for a replacement capsule.
[00:07:45.280 --> 00:07:45.440] Right?
[00:07:45.440 --> 00:07:50.960] So you kind of locking yourself into a proprietary technology you've got to re-up every year every year.
[00:07:50.960 --> 00:07:52.640] So let's start with these starter kits.
[00:07:52.640 --> 00:07:54.880] That seems like a very sensible beginning to the story.
[00:07:54.880 --> 00:07:56.320] Let's start with these starter kits.
[00:07:56.320 --> 00:07:57.360] They seem very popular.
[00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:04.560] When I went on the website for the product page, a little text box over the image said 400 plus bought today.
[00:08:04.880 --> 00:08:10.160] And I say text box very specifically because, as far as I could tell, it was a static item on the site.
[00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:12.000] It didn't appear to be dynamic.
[00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:12.480] Okay.
[00:08:12.960 --> 00:08:15.760] So, and when I checked it a different day, it also said 400 plus.
[00:08:15.760 --> 00:08:16.240] So who knows?
[00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:18.000] Maybe they really going in every day.
[00:08:18.080 --> 00:08:22.800] Someone is going in manually every day, counting how many sales they've had so far and updating it.
[00:08:22.960 --> 00:08:24.720] Well, I thought that would have to be not every day.
[00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:26.880] That would have to be on an ongoing basis throughout the day.
[00:08:26.960 --> 00:08:29.040] It says 400 plus bought today.
[00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:32.720] So I didn't check in the morning whether it said 200 plus bought today or 100 plus.
[00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:34.080] I'll check tomorrow morning.
[00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:38.240] I suspect it'll say 400 plus, which means 12 or 1 P AM.
[00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:41.760] Like after midnight, everyone rushes out, like QD tickets.
[00:08:42.640 --> 00:08:47.440] As soon as a day comes out, people rush to buy 400 of them all at once.
[00:08:47.680 --> 00:08:49.920] And it suddenly sells out very quickly.
[00:08:49.920 --> 00:08:55.200] Speaking of which, QD tickets are currently on sale, but depending when the show goes out, they may not be.
[00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:56.560] There's been a rush of demand.
[00:08:56.560 --> 00:09:03.320] So if you are thinking of coming, you might want to towards what I'm saying is we're going to be recording a couple of episodes in this recording session.
[00:08:58.800 --> 00:09:05.320] We're going to be recording ads for QD in all of them.
[00:09:05.560 --> 00:09:09.080] We may be deleting ads for QD out of some recordings.
[00:09:09.400 --> 00:09:13.160] So why might people need a water filter on their sinks?
[00:09:13.160 --> 00:09:15.960] Well, they explain on the product page for their main filter.
[00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:17.960] They say, we chlorinate our water.
[00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:19.480] This is the royal we.
[00:09:19.800 --> 00:09:20.600] This is Britain.
[00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:25.960] We chlorinate our water across nearly every water system to disinfect and kill bacteria, such as E.
[00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:26.920] coli.
[00:09:26.920 --> 00:09:27.800] Definitely do not want E.
[00:09:27.800 --> 00:09:30.520] coli, it says, in brackets, definitely do not want that.
[00:09:30.520 --> 00:09:35.160] But that chlorine shouldn't be there when we drink through that grim chemical smell.
[00:09:35.160 --> 00:09:35.880] Why?
[00:09:35.880 --> 00:09:45.080] The chemical smell of chlorine can be immediately off-putting for drinkers, and we see our customers transform their water immediately after installing their water too.
[00:09:45.400 --> 00:09:47.720] I have quite a sensitive sense of smell.
[00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:50.440] I have never been able to smell chlorine in tap water.
[00:09:50.680 --> 00:10:01.880] I'm sure we're all familiar with that sensation of when you turn on the tap and suddenly the room is filled with a chlorine smell and it's you're basically in the World War I trenches and you're like, how am I even surviving this?
[00:10:01.880 --> 00:10:07.880] Well, you say that, but the next line of their website, chlorine is an issue smelt and tasted by millions.
[00:10:07.880 --> 00:10:08.440] Millions.
[00:10:08.440 --> 00:10:10.920] That is multiple percentages of the UK population.
[00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:12.120] Millions of us have.
[00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:13.480] We've been to leisure centers.
[00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:19.080] Yeah, and it goes on to say there are other contaminants that have also been found in isolated areas.
[00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:21.560] Microplastics may be an emerging threat.
[00:10:21.560 --> 00:10:28.120] Their presence has gone beyond plastic bottles, food, and tap, and they are now being found in human blood.
[00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:30.440] And then it says lead piping still remains.
[00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:37.960] Lead piping is still present in an estimated 25% of homes, despite it being illegal to be installed in new homes.
[00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:41.400] It's also present in 100% of Cluedo sets.
[00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:45.760] So that is the pitch that we have here.
[00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:53.520] They go on to explain that their regular 2.0 kit consists of a high-grade activated carbon filter made from coconut shells.
[00:10:53.520 --> 00:11:05.920] So inside of that canister is a filter made of coconut shells, apparently, before going through what they will only describe as an ultra-filtration module, which apparently has pores no wider than 0.1 microns.
[00:11:05.920 --> 00:11:12.240] So anything that is larger than 0.1 micron will just get backed up by and caught in this filter.
[00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:18.320] That is only useful information if they also tell you how big the molecules they're filtering out are.
[00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:19.360] Yes, it is.
[00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:29.440] So they go on to say they will filter out 99.99% of microplastics, 99.99% of bacteria, 99.99% of parasites.
[00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:33.360] I'm looking at Alice in case at any point something sets off her microd a lot.
[00:11:33.680 --> 00:11:41.280] 99.99% of cryptosporidium, 99.99% of asbestos, 99.99% of E.
[00:11:41.280 --> 00:11:48.320] coli, 95.28% of chlorine, and 30 to 50% of lead.
[00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:51.520] I don't know the size of most of those things.
[00:11:51.520 --> 00:11:53.440] All I know is bacteria are pretty big.
[00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:54.960] You can see them under a microscope.
[00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:55.440] Yeah.
[00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:56.400] So I would expect.
[00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:59.760] I'm not good on what a microd is, to be honest, or what a tenth of a micron is.
[00:11:59.760 --> 00:12:07.840] I did try to look into the sizes of some of these, and I didn't find enough of a solid handle on it that I could put in for some good kind of context.
[00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:14.320] To be fair, if we were filtering stuff, particularly if we were filtering bacteria in the lab, we would use a 0.2 micron filter.
[00:12:14.880 --> 00:12:15.440] What's that?
[00:12:15.520 --> 00:12:20.640] I've got a feeling micron is 10 to the minus 6 of a of a meter, is it?
[00:12:20.640 --> 00:12:22.880] Yes, 10 to the minus 6th of a meter, a micron.
[00:12:22.880 --> 00:12:23.200] Yes.
[00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:26.800] So a millionth, a millionth of a meter, so a thousandth of a millimeter.
[00:12:26.800 --> 00:12:27.120] Yes.
[00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:27.760] Okay, there you go.
[00:12:27.760 --> 00:12:28.320] There you go.
[00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:28.720] Okay.
[00:12:28.880 --> 00:12:30.360] Doesn't it help you for the size of these other things.
[00:12:30.520 --> 00:12:32.280] We still have to look at the size of other shit.
[00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:34.280] I did try and do that, but it wasn't fully clear.
[00:12:34.520 --> 00:12:38.600] The one that got me there was asbestos, which seems to have come out of nowhere in this pitch.
[00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:41.000] Are they saying that our tap water's full of asbestos?
[00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:41.960] We will come back to asbestos.
[00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:43.880] Okay, we will come back to asbestos.
[00:12:43.880 --> 00:12:49.640] So it is true that in the UK we use chlorine as a disinfectant in the water supply to kill off bacteria, in fact.
[00:12:49.640 --> 00:12:56.200] But is it the case then that millions of UK tap water drinkers smell and taste chlorine in their drinking water routinely?
[00:12:56.200 --> 00:13:00.440] At least routinely enough to justify an expensive water filtration system?
[00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:16.200] Well, not according to the Drinking Water Inspectorate, which is a public body formed in 1990 as an arm's length body of the UK government to provide independent reassurance that public water supplies in England and Wales are safe and drinking water quality is acceptable to consumers.
[00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:17.400] That's the other DWI.
[00:13:17.400 --> 00:13:19.240] I've not heard of the DWI before.
[00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:22.840] I tend to be across a lot of regulators, but these were new ones to me.
[00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:24.600] It's the Department of the Women's Institute, right?
[00:13:24.760 --> 00:13:25.480] That's where I sorry.
[00:13:25.560 --> 00:13:26.200] That's what it is.
[00:13:26.680 --> 00:13:30.440] So the DWI audit water companies and then test drinking water.
[00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:37.000] And they've got powers of enforcement if any drinking water samples fail their tests because they're part of the government, essentially.
[00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:39.800] So they have kind of government enforcement kind of powers.
[00:13:39.800 --> 00:13:46.520] As an aside, the issue of water quality in the UK is a serious one and one that has been in the news a lot.
[00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:48.680] And so listeners might be thinking that's where this going.
[00:13:48.680 --> 00:13:59.080] But bear in mind, if you're thinking about the times that water companies have been fined pretty regularly for routinely dumping their sewage into the rivers and seas of the British Isles, that is a real issue.
[00:13:59.080 --> 00:13:59.720] That is a real issue.
[00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:00.280] It's a serious issue.
[00:14:00.280 --> 00:14:01.240] It's a massive issue.
[00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:02.600] But it's not getting into the tap water.
[00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:10.520] Well, this is it, because, as you might imagine, the water that we expel is far less closely policed than the water we are expected to ingest coming to us from tap water.
[00:14:10.760 --> 00:14:18.320] It is a problem if you're going to a beach in the UK, particularly if you're taking young children or other people who might be vulnerable immunologically.
[00:14:18.640 --> 00:14:24.560] You probably don't want to have them swimming in the sea if it's close to where sewage dumps have been happening.
[00:14:24.560 --> 00:14:31.760] Yeah, but the DWI has nothing to do with keeping excrement off our beaches, but they will get very involved in keeping the bad stuff out of our drinking water.
[00:14:31.760 --> 00:14:33.120] That's their kind of remit.
[00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:39.200] And as you might imagine, the DWI have got information on the chlorine levels in the drinking waters of England and Wales.
[00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:49.280] I say England and Wales not because Scotland and Northern Ireland are like a chlorine-strewn hellhole, they're under a different system because they're a devolved government, they've got their own governments, so they have their own system set up.
[00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:51.520] They're also a completely different kind of hellhole.
[00:14:51.760 --> 00:14:52.560] Very different.
[00:14:52.880 --> 00:14:54.960] Nothing to do with chlorine, maybe no chlorine at all.
[00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:55.520] Zero chlorine.
[00:14:55.680 --> 00:14:56.720] If anything, that's the problem.
[00:14:56.880 --> 00:14:59.920] No chlorine in Northern Ireland or Scotland.
[00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:03.200] So, DWI or all over chlorine levels.
[00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:06.880] They've even got a page dedicated to chlorine levels on their website, which I read.
[00:15:06.880 --> 00:15:11.760] There is even a six-minute episode of the DWI's podcast on tap.
[00:15:11.760 --> 00:15:12.640] They've got a podcast.
[00:15:12.880 --> 00:15:14.560] Oh, I see what they've done there.
[00:15:14.560 --> 00:15:15.200] That's good.
[00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:16.720] There's an episode all about chlorine.
[00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:19.120] There's only two episodes I could find.
[00:15:19.280 --> 00:15:21.120] One about lead and one about chlorine.
[00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:22.240] So I listened to on tap.
[00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:24.640] I listened to a podcast for the making of this podcast.
[00:15:24.640 --> 00:15:29.520] The host, Lydia, interviewed the DWI's principal inspector, Ashley Parker.
[00:15:31.920 --> 00:15:32.480] Who explained.
[00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:34.240] I love an industry podcast.
[00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:34.880] Oh, God, yeah.
[00:15:35.280 --> 00:15:36.000] It's so cute.
[00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:37.760] It's industry, but it's very much to the public.
[00:15:37.920 --> 00:15:39.680] It's like, we're looking after you.
[00:15:39.680 --> 00:15:40.400] Here's what we're doing.
[00:15:40.400 --> 00:15:40.960] It's all right.
[00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:42.080] Don't worry about the chlorine.
[00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:42.800] Here's what it is.
[00:15:42.800 --> 00:15:45.280] And they were literally saying, you know, chlorine levels allowed in our drinking water.
[00:15:45.280 --> 00:15:52.240] It's quite safe that the level in chlorine and tap water in England and Wales is far lower than other countries, like the US, for example.
[00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:53.920] Where it's called on faucet?
[00:15:53.920 --> 00:15:55.360] It is called on faucet.
[00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:56.480] And the pun doesn't work.
[00:15:56.520 --> 00:15:58.080] Does would that work as a pun?
[00:15:58.160 --> 00:16:00.360] They don't have on tap, having something on tap.
[00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:01.320] Would America say on tap?
[00:16:01.560 --> 00:16:01.960] I don't know.
[00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:02.760] They might still use the phrase on tap.
[00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:08.920] Oh, you still have like a tap for they would disambiguate between taps and faucets.
[00:16:08.920 --> 00:16:12.520] Faucets would be water, and tap would be like a keg tap or something like that.
[00:16:12.520 --> 00:16:13.480] I reckon.
[00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:25.480] Anyway, they go on to explain that our tap water typically contains around 0.5 milligrams or less per litre, no more than one milligram, which is well below the WHO stated safety levels of five milligrams per litre.
[00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:27.960] So like the chlorine levels in our water, safe.
[00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:28.600] Well safe.
[00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:33.480] Well and truly safe by maybe an order of magnitude below the safe levels.
[00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:38.040] Which you can tell because we're not falling over ourselves with dead children in swimming baths.
[00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:38.600] Right.
[00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:41.480] You know, every time someone swallows a mouthful of water.
[00:16:44.760 --> 00:16:48.680] It's already got to quite high levels, but not high enough to cause harm.
[00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:51.800] But it's, yeah, still people aren't dropping dead of it, right?
[00:16:51.800 --> 00:16:53.240] Every time they go to the swimming pool.
[00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:53.880] Exactly.
[00:16:53.880 --> 00:17:00.920] Now, people might notice occasionally there's a slight taste of chlorine in their drinking water now and then, but that's mostly going to be due to maintenance works on the pipes.
[00:17:00.920 --> 00:17:09.800] And that might mean an extra bit of chlorine gets out and doesn't get filtered through before it gets to you because it all has to, there's chlorine in the pipes in the sort of the general water works.
[00:17:10.040 --> 00:17:15.640] You usually get a text message from United Utilities saying we're doing some work in your area and you might just want to clear the taps.
[00:17:16.120 --> 00:17:20.760] Because it'll be chlorine or it'd be sediment, it might be brown for some reason, but it's just because we've done a bit of work.
[00:17:20.760 --> 00:17:22.840] There's a bit of disrupted sort of run off in the tap.
[00:17:22.840 --> 00:17:23.480] Just get out.
[00:17:23.560 --> 00:17:26.120] It won't be harmful, but just it might taste a bit funny.
[00:17:26.120 --> 00:17:37.000] So that the DWI even point out that if you do notice a new taste of chlorine or a very strong taste of chlorine on your tap water, you should contact the water company immediately because it might be a sign that something's wrong.
[00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:42.280] And I suppose in that situation, using an expensive filter might delay the water company finding out about that.
[00:17:42.280 --> 00:17:43.720] So maybe it's a bad thing.
[00:17:43.800 --> 00:17:47.360] That's unlikely to be too serious an issue because someone else is going to notice it.
[00:17:47.360 --> 00:17:49.200] And also, as I say, the chlorine levels are safe.
[00:17:44.840 --> 00:17:51.040] We'd have to go very high for it to be unsafe.
[00:17:51.360 --> 00:17:55.600] And also, the DWI are doing water sampling often to check for this kind of stuff.
[00:17:55.600 --> 00:17:58.000] So that's going to, so it's not the worst thing in the world if you've got a filter.
[00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:00.800] It's not going to cause harm to people if you've got a filter in those circumstances.
[00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:10.320] And it's true that, like, tap water does taste different across the country based on how hard or soft it is and what kind of minerals are in your region's tap water.
[00:18:10.320 --> 00:18:16.640] So you can have different slight different tastes to water, which some people find unpalatable and choose to filter their water.
[00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:20.720] It's not unsafe, but if you don't like the taste of your tap water, you might filter it.
[00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:24.240] You might filter it before you put it in your kettle if you don't want to get like lime scale.
[00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:28.400] If you're in a very heavy hard water area, yeah, and we'll come back to minerals and water in a bit as well.
[00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:35.520] But yeah, in that instance, for those kind of instances, or if you're noticing a slight taste, perhaps a water filter isn't a terrible idea.
[00:18:35.520 --> 00:18:45.040] It's up to you whether or not you think the cost of having a water filter in your pipes is worth the benefit of removing whatever taste you think you're finding in there.
[00:18:45.040 --> 00:18:48.960] And obviously, like there are some additives to water that are good for us.
[00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:50.160] We're going to come back to those.
[00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:51.440] I promise we're coming back to those.
[00:18:51.760 --> 00:18:54.800] So, like, there's a cost benefit.
[00:18:55.120 --> 00:18:56.080] Just keep that pin.
[00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:56.880] Keep that pin.
[00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:02.000] I will come back to that much, much later because that'll be a claim that I want to come back to of theirs in relation to that.
[00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:06.960] Still, I'm highly suspicious of the rest of that list of things that Water 2 claim to filter on.
[00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:14.480] 99.99% of bacteria, 99.99% of parasites, 99.99% of Cryptosporidium, 99.99% of E.
[00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:15.120] coli.
[00:19:15.120 --> 00:19:25.120] I'm suspicious of that because it's suggesting to the reader that your drinking water is otherwise filled or plagued with the presence of bacteria, parasites, cryptosporidium, and E.
[00:19:25.120 --> 00:19:25.840] coli.
[00:19:25.840 --> 00:19:27.360] Which is just demonstrably not.
[00:19:27.360 --> 00:19:27.680] It's not.
[00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:28.080] It's not.
[00:19:28.080 --> 00:19:33.800] Here in the UK, where the water 2 product is being sold primarily in the UK, it's a UK-based product.
[00:19:33.800 --> 00:19:34.680] That is not the case.
[00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:47.240] Again, according to the DWI, this is a quote from them: water companies must assess the risk of cryptosporidium in its water sources and design and continuously operate a water treatment process to remove the parasite or render it inactive.
[00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:52.680] This is a regulatory requirement, and failure to comply is an offense.
[00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:58.040] So, this is me again: if there's cryptosporidium in your tap water, that's a matter for the authorities.
[00:19:58.040 --> 00:20:00.920] It's not a reason to buy an expensive water filter.
[00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:04.040] Similarly, our drinking water by regulation has to be free of E.
[00:20:04.040 --> 00:20:04.920] coli.
[00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:08.040] And when it gets detected, the water companies have to remove it.
[00:20:08.040 --> 00:20:11.000] You don't just like they don't expect the consumer to filter it out.
[00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:14.440] When it comes to bacteria, that's what the chlorine was for.
[00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:20.120] The chlorine that you're saying you can taste so much in the water, the chlorine's there to kill the bacteria.
[00:20:20.120 --> 00:20:24.360] So the chlorine is there in order to get rid of the bacteria before it makes it to your tap.
[00:20:24.360 --> 00:20:34.680] So the good news is that in each of the last three years of available results, 99.98% of samples tested passed the test for absence of microbiology, so these types of things.
[00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:40.120] 99.96% of the DWI's samples had an absence of unwanted chemicals.
[00:20:40.120 --> 00:20:46.600] So that's the other thing that water talk about, like PFAs and other types of chemicals, wasn't in the water in three years of samples.
[00:20:46.600 --> 00:20:50.040] 100% of all samples were free of traces of pesticide.
[00:20:50.040 --> 00:20:51.720] So water quality is good.
[00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:52.920] It's well maintained.
[00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:54.760] Certainly the drinking water at least.
[00:20:54.760 --> 00:21:03.560] In 2020, for example, out of 134,730 samples taken, all but 11 found no trace of E.
[00:21:03.560 --> 00:21:04.680] coli, which means they found E.
[00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:08.760] coli 11 times and took action to make sure that wasn't happening, to stop it immediately.
[00:21:08.760 --> 00:21:11.720] It wasn't a case of just let it get to the filter at that point.
[00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:19.920] Equally, when it comes to other measures, 99.6% of samples met the standards for levels of lead, so they weren't over the too much lead at a level.
[00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:27.040] 99.83% met the standard for iron, 99.86% met standards for taste, which means they can't have tasted of chlorine.
[00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:41.280] 99.86% of samples, which suggests that millions of people are experiencing chlorine taste in their drinking water, can't be true because 99.86% of samples were fine for taste.
[00:21:41.280 --> 00:21:43.360] And there isn't the math that doesn't work out.
[00:21:43.360 --> 00:21:46.320] They'd need a billion people in the UK for that to work out otherwise.
[00:21:46.320 --> 00:21:52.160] And that's what, like, one of my worries about what you're talking about here is that it's talking about people being able to taste chlorine in the water.
[00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:56.720] But I think if you go, well, I've never been able to taste chlorine in my water, but I can't.
[00:21:56.720 --> 00:22:08.640] Sometimes my water just tastes differently, then that's making people think, oh, it must be the chlorine and having a strong reaction to stuff like that, when in actual fact, it might be minerals in that area, hard water, soft water, etc.
[00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:17.200] And it's completely normal and might be something you choose to do something about preference-wise, but not something that you choose to do something about like for safety reasons.
[00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:18.480] Yeah, completely so.
[00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:26.560] So, yeah, we have very clean, very safe drinking water here in England and Wales, and doubtlessly for Scotland and Northern Ireland, although I didn't check for them.
[00:22:26.560 --> 00:22:30.320] Scottish and Irish skeptic go off and check yourself, but I'm sure it's fine.
[00:22:30.320 --> 00:22:37.760] On the subject of lead, it's therefore not a massive reassurance that Water 2 claims to remove 30 to 50% of lead levels.
[00:22:37.760 --> 00:22:40.480] That feels not high enough to be making a claim on.
[00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:49.120] If you're getting lead in your tap water, the solution isn't to filter, it's to have your pipes looked at because you've got lead in your tap water and half as much lead isn't good.
[00:22:49.120 --> 00:22:52.480] Le yeah, lead is lead is a bad thing to have in your water.
[00:22:52.800 --> 00:22:54.560] If that's a risk, you need to be doing something about it.
[00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:55.200] It's fine.
[00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:57.760] I get rid of about half of the lead in my water.
[00:22:57.760 --> 00:22:58.880] It's absolutely fine.
[00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:01.240] I'm not angry about it at all.
[00:22:59.760 --> 00:23:06.120] That's one of the effects of lead buildup in the brain is increased anger.
[00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:07.640] That was what that was.
[00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:12.440] Anyway, so yeah, I find the claims for water too to be pretty over the top and very alarmist.
[00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:24.680] Like, sure, if you're routinely tasting chlorine in your tap water because you happen to be very, very sensitive to the incredibly low levels that are safely present, a water filter might make sense for you, or you can chill your water and that kind of removes some of the taste as well.
[00:23:24.680 --> 00:23:37.480] But to sell these filters as a way of protecting you from parasites and bacteria, things that you're already by law protected from in drinking water, that's just a case of scaremongering you into splashing out money on protective products you don't need.
[00:23:37.800 --> 00:23:52.680] They talk, as you reference there, Mike, of removing 99.99% of asbestos from drinking water, which immediately makes the reader think there's an abundance of asbestos in my drinking water and therefore it must pose a massive threat to my health.
[00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:53.560] Now I looked this up.
[00:23:53.560 --> 00:23:58.760] It is true, apparently, that there is some asbestos fibers in drinking water, just commonly.
[00:23:58.760 --> 00:24:10.120] According to the WHO, and this is unhelpful, they say, quote, the concentration of which of asbestos varies between non-detectable and 1 million fibers per litre.
[00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:12.040] That is the level they talk about.
[00:24:12.280 --> 00:24:16.920] Now, a million fibers per liter sounds quite a lot because that is a thousand fibers per milliliter.
[00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:17.160] Yeah.
[00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:21.880] And they're talking about fibers that are up to a micron in length.
[00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:22.360] Right.
[00:24:22.360 --> 00:24:24.120] Which is still tiny, right?
[00:24:24.120 --> 00:24:25.640] It's still not a lot there.
[00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:35.640] But I'm going to reassure you more from here because we also know there's no evidence of harm for that level of asbestos in the water between non-detectable and a million fibers per litre.
[00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:41.480] I mean, part of the reason we know that is we aren't all dying of asbestos-related cancers from drinking water.
[00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:45.840] And this will have been the case for 50 years, the amount of asbestos we're in in the water.
[00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:52.000] So, the thing is, asbestos is harmful when inhaled because of the effects on the interior of the lungs.
[00:24:52.320 --> 00:25:00.960] That doesn't then automatically mean that it's harmful when ingested in minute and highly concentrated amounts, and then meets, for example, the acids in your stomach and things.
[00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:14.080] And it's that's exactly why having horse hair in your walls that might have asbestos in it is not an immediate risk, it's the removal of that because it's aerosolizing it.
[00:25:14.080 --> 00:25:27.600] Yeah, so according to the WHO's report, quote: Although well studied, there has been little convincing evidence of the carcinogenicity of ingested asbestos in epidemiological studies of populations with drinking water supplies containing high concentrations of asbestos.
[00:25:27.600 --> 00:25:35.520] Moreover, in extensive studies in lab species, asbestos has not consistently increased the incidence of tumors of the gastrointestinal tract.
[00:25:35.520 --> 00:25:40.640] There is therefore no consistent evidence that ingested asbestos is hazardous to health.
[00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:46.880] And thus, it was concluded there was no need to establish a health-based guideline value for asbestos in drinking water.
[00:25:47.040 --> 00:25:55.360] That's why we don't know how much there is in drinking water, because when they've studied it, they found there isn't a level that's likely to find it in water that could be causing harm.
[00:25:55.360 --> 00:26:02.400] So, we don't need to say don't have this amount of asbestos in any more than we have it for something else incredibly dangerous, plutonium, arsenic, things like that.
[00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:05.440] It's not a bog standard thing to check for.
[00:26:05.760 --> 00:26:18.800] On their website, Water 2 kind of gloss over this with a bit of a hand wave, gloss over all of this with a bit of a hand wave, because what they say is we are always told the UK has amazing water, but what about the times where it isn't true?
[00:26:18.800 --> 00:26:22.400] Over 100,000 horms now opt for a Water 2 filter.
[00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:23.920] That's what they say.
[00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:31.880] But you don't have evidence that those 100,000 horms opted to buy your water filter because their water wasn't amazing.
[00:26:31.880 --> 00:26:34.600] Because they were some of the times that the water wasn't amazing.
[00:26:29.520 --> 00:26:39.880] Maybe it's because, for example, they saw an ad from you telling them that without a water filter, all of that E.
[00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:42.200] coli and asbestos is going to get through and kill them.
[00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:42.600] Yeah.
[00:26:42.600 --> 00:26:46.120] Maybe that's why maybe they're falling for your marketing here.
[00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:51.720] Also, they say, like, say, they say on their product page that they've sold more than 400 today alone.
[00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:54.280] And they said that yesterday and the other day that I checked.
[00:26:54.280 --> 00:27:00.680] But at that rate of selling more than 400 a day, those 100,000 homes, that's 250 days.
[00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:01.720] That's not a year.
[00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:05.160] They've been selling since 2020 or 2023, I think, in fact.
[00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:07.320] So yeah, I don't buy the numbers here at all.
[00:27:07.320 --> 00:27:08.280] Something's not adding up.
[00:27:08.520 --> 00:27:17.160] Meanwhile, on the website, they've got a graphic of the UK on their home page or the website with the text: We're always told how great our water is, but here are cases where it's not.
[00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:26.920] While the UK has a relatively high sample pass rate, there are still issues up and down the country relating to bacteria, burst pipes, microplastics, and more.
[00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:28.440] Just look at your area.
[00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:29.560] Relatively high.
[00:27:29.560 --> 00:27:30.440] Relatively high.
[00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:35.080] Wasn't it 99.38 or something like that, which is absolutely high?
[00:27:35.080 --> 00:27:36.760] Yeah, for some, it was 99.99.
[00:27:36.760 --> 00:27:38.120] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:27:38.120 --> 00:27:44.840] And then you've got this little map, and it's got little plus signs where you can click on to learn what's been happening in your area of shame.
[00:27:44.840 --> 00:27:50.280] And it brings up articles, sometimes articles from the DWI, in fact, about issues with tap water supply.
[00:27:50.280 --> 00:28:03.320] That includes, for example, a 2023 incident where Scottish Water customers' water was contaminated for several days by a fuel leak, leading customers to be given bottled water by Scottish Water while the issue was being resolved.
[00:28:03.320 --> 00:28:10.600] So, are they suggesting that their filter could filter out all of the fuel oil from a pumping station's backup generator?
[00:28:10.600 --> 00:28:13.880] Because I don't know that that's what they're claiming to be able to filter out.
[00:28:13.880 --> 00:28:15.200] I'm not going to, they haven't said that.
[00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:16.880] That's the kind of stuff they could filter out.
[00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:19.680] Was that the time when people were setting fire to their taps?
[00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:22.080] Was that Fent Michigan stuff?
[00:28:14.840 --> 00:28:22.240] I think.
[00:28:22.320 --> 00:28:23.680] I don't know if it was one in Scotland.
[00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:25.760] No, there was a thing in the UK.
[00:28:26.080 --> 00:28:27.200] It wasn't recently.
[00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:28.720] It was maybe five, six years ago.
[00:28:29.120 --> 00:28:29.680] It might have been that.
[00:28:29.840 --> 00:28:30.400] It might have been that.
[00:28:31.120 --> 00:28:32.160] That was 2023.
[00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:36.880] So, you know, possibly where people were setting fire to that, and I had a little flame on the bottom of the tap.
[00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:38.320] And they go, what are they putting in our water?
[00:28:38.320 --> 00:28:39.600] Because, look, there's fire.
[00:28:39.600 --> 00:28:41.120] I can set fire to the water.
[00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:42.400] It's like, you can't, though, can you?
[00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:43.920] It's not the water that's burning.
[00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:47.280] Yeah, it's the fucking whatever else is in the pipe.
[00:28:47.280 --> 00:28:52.720] A pumping station that run an electric backup generator leaks on the oil into the water supply.
[00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:53.360] Very bad thing.
[00:28:53.360 --> 00:28:54.560] People noticed it.
[00:28:54.560 --> 00:28:57.600] Scottish water got on it, gave everybody bottled water while they fixed it.
[00:28:57.600 --> 00:28:59.360] You didn't need a filter to get rid of it.
[00:28:59.360 --> 00:29:00.400] And it's not an issue.
[00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:02.560] That's not a selling point for a filter to me.
[00:29:02.560 --> 00:29:11.760] What about the story in 2022 that they cite from Rutland, or another story from 2023 from Bristol, where homes were left completely without water due to a broken pipe?
[00:29:12.080 --> 00:29:14.880] What the fuck's that gonna do to your filter?
[00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:16.480] Your filter doesn't fix that.
[00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:16.960] No, it doesn't.
[00:29:17.520 --> 00:29:19.120] Filter or non-existent water.
[00:29:19.280 --> 00:29:21.920] Yeah, having a water filter on your mainline wouldn't have helped with that.
[00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:23.760] This isn't evidence towards buying your pipe.
[00:29:23.760 --> 00:29:26.320] This is just you saying, oh, water problems in it.
[00:29:26.320 --> 00:29:27.520] Better buy our product.
[00:29:27.520 --> 00:29:28.800] But this would have not helped.
[00:29:28.800 --> 00:29:31.920] This is just opportunism on top of scaremongering.
[00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:36.000] They also say, Water 2 will give you the best tasting water guaranteed.
[00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:42.960] Try Water 2, and if you don't love it, though, we promise you will, you can return your filter for a full refund within 100 days.
[00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:46.960] And I love this as marketing, because it's literally, try our product.
[00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:49.760] If you like it, we'll add you to our list of happy customers.
[00:29:49.760 --> 00:29:55.040] And if you don't, we'll forget you ever existed and pretend to people that every one of our customers is happy.
[00:29:55.040 --> 00:29:59.200] It's you're sampling bias as a marketing ploy, essentially.
[00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:05.640] And obviously, I've not bought the product, so I haven't tried to engage the 100-day refund, so I have no idea what steps are involved in it and how easy that is.
[00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:07.560] I just can't comment on that at all.
[00:30:07.560 --> 00:30:14.680] As you might expect from a pro from a company like this, they've got a page called The Science, where you'd expect them to explain the science of it all.
[00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:26.600] Instead of that, what we get is marketing claims like more than 95% of chlorine filtered and third-party tested in multiple labs, and we are CE certified within the UK.
[00:30:26.600 --> 00:30:29.960] So they are actively safe themselves, is all that's saying.
[00:30:30.280 --> 00:30:33.000] They link to a peer-reviewed study on the page.
[00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:37.960] It's a study on why pry halomethanes might be linked to bladder cancer.
[00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:39.800] It says nothing about their filters being effective.
[00:30:39.800 --> 00:30:42.120] It doesn't mention filters at all.
[00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:44.920] It's just a some chemicals cause cancer.
[00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:45.480] Yeah.
[00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:47.000] That's the science of their filters.
[00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:49.880] We don't even know if their filter will screen those chemicals out.
[00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:50.680] They do claim it.
[00:30:51.080 --> 00:30:53.160] It was in the 60%, something like that.
[00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:56.440] But I don't know how common those chemicals even are in what.
[00:30:56.440 --> 00:31:04.760] I mean, given that the DWI said their pass rate for chemicals was 99.6 or 96% or something kind of area.
[00:31:04.760 --> 00:31:07.160] So I'm saying they a lot here when it comes to water 2.
[00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:09.720] So maybe we need to talk about who water 2 are.
[00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:19.640] So Water 2 was founded in 2020 by Charles Robinson, says on their site, who dropped out of university to work with his professors to fix the UK's tap water crisis.
[00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:22.920] And today it's the fastest growing water filter brand in the world.
[00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:24.760] Tap water crisis?
[00:31:24.760 --> 00:31:28.440] As we've covered, the UK has excellent quality tap water.
[00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:29.400] There is no crisis.
[00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:31.560] That's needless scaremongering again.
[00:31:31.560 --> 00:31:34.920] Also, when Charles talks about university, he's talking about UCL in London.
[00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:40.920] Though, according to a press release on UCL's website, he is the alumnus of their philosophy department.
[00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:46.160] So, guy with a philosophy degree reinvents tap water filtering, essentially.
[00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:50.080] And he said he was motivated to do this after spotting a gap in the market for a new brand.
[00:31:50.320 --> 00:31:55.280] He said, Quote, I started thinking about water filters in 2020, and I realized something.
[00:31:55.280 --> 00:31:56.800] It's a really blurred category.
[00:31:56.800 --> 00:32:00.240] I could only name one brand, but how many water brands could you think of?
[00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:05.840] So he was saying, like, there's loads of brands of drinking water, only one brand of filter gap in the market there.
[00:32:05.840 --> 00:32:08.640] So he wasn't doing this because he felt like he could improve the technology.
[00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:09.920] He just recognized there's an opportunity.
[00:32:11.360 --> 00:32:12.640] So he means Brita, right?
[00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:13.520] He means Brita.
[00:32:13.520 --> 00:32:15.120] That is the only water filter.
[00:32:15.280 --> 00:32:18.960] Yeah, he just didn't want to name his main rival in his press release about his product.
[00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:19.520] Yeah.
[00:32:19.520 --> 00:32:23.360] So this is actually Robinson's second business that he set up since leaving UCL.
[00:32:23.360 --> 00:32:32.640] His first business was called Gel Card, a company that was set up in April 2020 to offer, quote, the premium hand sanitizer experience.
[00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:33.040] Yeah.
[00:32:33.040 --> 00:32:34.560] In April 2020.
[00:32:34.560 --> 00:32:37.600] Yeah, I'm tired of slumming it with cheap hand sanitizer.
[00:32:37.600 --> 00:32:39.360] Yeah, one month into a pandemic.
[00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:47.760] It's apparently, it was apparently, quote, dedicated to hygiene innovation through brand collaboration and user experience obsession.
[00:32:47.760 --> 00:32:53.360] What it did was it used celebrity partnerships and endorsements to create brands that they could sell as premium hand sanitizer brands.
[00:32:53.360 --> 00:32:55.040] Kim Kardashian was one of their partners.
[00:32:55.040 --> 00:33:00.320] There was an article praising the fact that if you can get Kim Kardashian to pose with hand sanitizer, you must be onto something.
[00:33:00.320 --> 00:33:08.480] They sell, or possibly used to sell, I don't know if they still do, single-dose hand sanitizer in credit card-sized disposable pouches.
[00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:10.160] You'll have seen products like it.
[00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:19.840] Instead of having to carry a bottle of a small bottle of hand sanitizer around, you just open a little credit card or like condom sachet of hand sanitizer in a pouch, and then you put it on, then you throw that pouch away.
[00:33:19.840 --> 00:33:26.240] So, apparently, just a few years ago, entrepreneur Charles cared a little less about microplastics when they weren't caught in his marketing strategy.
[00:33:26.320 --> 00:33:27.680] That's exactly what I was thinking.
[00:33:28.560 --> 00:33:42.520] Speaking of his marketing strategy, a couple of other points of note on the website, on the homepage of Water2's website, quote: Bear Grylls, officially customer number 8,420, invested in Water 2 earlier this year.
[00:33:42.520 --> 00:33:48.440] The survival hero personally funded and co-led the development of Pod 2.0.
[00:33:48.440 --> 00:33:55.960] Regularly sitting in on product meetings and supporting growth, he's a hands-on co-owner, determined to change how the world drinks.
[00:33:55.960 --> 00:33:59.480] So, apparently, Bear Grylls is now the corner of this business.
[00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:01.000] He's very hands-on with it.
[00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:15.080] To show off how hands-on he is, he's pictured on the website holding a box of Water2 filter in his hands while pointing at it with his other hand, while inexplicably wearing a soaking wet white t-shirt that is transparently clinging to his liquid.
[00:34:15.080 --> 00:34:17.880] Like he's poured one of those filtered water all over him.
[00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:23.560] Like, oh, I've got it so pure, it's so pure, I can bathe in this in my white t-shirt.
[00:34:23.560 --> 00:34:32.200] This is also suggests, of course, that Charles considers TV survivalist Bear Grylls to be a good celebrity to partner with to sell his products.
[00:34:32.200 --> 00:34:35.640] This guy who can survive in the wild drinking non-clean water.
[00:34:35.640 --> 00:34:36.680] Yeah, I would disagree.
[00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:53.000] And it's not just because Bear Grylls is a prominent Christian activist who's the face of the Alpha Course, and not just because he's the guy who baptized his good friend and noted rapist Russell Brand in the Thames last year as part of Russell Brand's, I couldn't have raped a gov, I'm Christian now, conversion strategy, essentially.
[00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:53.720] Was that last year?
[00:34:53.720 --> 00:34:54.120] Was that?
[00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:55.400] I think that was 2024.
[00:34:55.400 --> 00:34:56.760] It might have been 2023.
[00:34:56.760 --> 00:35:01.400] I'm sure it was 2023 because we talked about it at the QED that year.
[00:35:01.560 --> 00:35:03.080] We didn't talk about it last year, did we?
[00:35:03.800 --> 00:35:04.280] Not sure.
[00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:04.680] Not sure.
[00:35:04.680 --> 00:35:08.280] I know we have an article about it at the time on The Skeptic, but yeah, I didn't check that.
[00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:10.200] In my head, it was last year, but it could have been slightly longer.
[00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:13.160] But anyway, he did a very convenient conversion.
[00:35:13.160 --> 00:35:18.080] All those are good reasons to dislike Bear Grylls, but it's not about his connection to this product.
[00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:21.040] But as you say, Alice, he's known for being a TV survivalist.
[00:35:21.200 --> 00:35:25.920] He made his living trying to, at least on television, survive in extreme places.
[00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:30.640] Tom Whipple, who I do like of The Times, he's a nice chap, wrote an excellent article about this.
[00:35:30.640 --> 00:35:36.960] He pointed out, his article starts by saying, when once in the desert, Bear Grylls cut open a camel and drank from its rumen.
[00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:41.280] When on a beach, he advised slurping from the eyes of a parrotfish to stay hydrated.
[00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:44.960] When he was at a loss, he drank a bottle of his own urine.
[00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:50.160] So he's pointing this out while then saying about Bear Grylls says that UK's tap water is disgusting.
[00:35:50.160 --> 00:35:56.960] I think it was even titled Bear Grylls, Urine Drinker Bear Grylls criticises UK Tapwater or something like that.
[00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:57.680] It was lovely.
[00:35:57.680 --> 00:36:02.560] Bear Grylls is not a good advert for you must drink heavily filtered drinking water or else it's bad for you.
[00:36:02.560 --> 00:36:06.240] Quoting, this is a direct quote from Tom Whipple's article.
[00:36:06.240 --> 00:36:22.480] Grylls, who once sated his thirst by squeezing the juice out of elephant dung and slurping it down, made the comments about UK tap water while working with Water 2, a UK company that sells £129 filters that have previously got itself in hot water after being sanctioned by the Advertising Standards Authority.
[00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:23.520] Beautiful paragraph.
[00:36:23.520 --> 00:36:24.720] Perfect paragraph.
[00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:28.560] When given the press release, Bear Grylls criticizes UK Tapwater.
[00:36:28.560 --> 00:36:30.160] That is how to write that press release.
[00:36:31.200 --> 00:36:31.840] Beautiful.
[00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:38.000] Because, yeah, I forgot to mention the marketing for Water 2 has been decidedly dodgy in other ways than just their website in the past.
[00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:45.440] In May 2024, they sent an email out to their entire marketing list with the subject line, update, it's gotten worse.
[00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:48.400] Which sort of sounds like the title of one of Russell Brand's videos, to be fair.
[00:36:49.200 --> 00:36:54.320] The body of the email read: quote: A hundred people have fallen ill in Devon now.
[00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:56.560] We can't stand by and watch this happen.
[00:36:56.560 --> 00:36:59.440] We've made Water 2 just 99 pounds today.
[00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:02.440] Use code urgent at checkout.
[00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:04.360] Every home in the UK needs a water filter.
[00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:10.760] We've built a 30,000-plus strong community of people brave enough to oppose UK tap water.
[00:37:11.080 --> 00:37:13.400] It's how you bring a community together, though, isn't it?
[00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:15.880] It's just, oh, I'm fucking against tap water.
[00:37:16.200 --> 00:37:17.240] I just hate it.
[00:37:17.240 --> 00:37:17.720] I hate it.
[00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:19.880] I'm against it and everything it stands for.
[00:37:20.360 --> 00:37:23.880] There's a raw commer in this next sentence, which is what tripped me up.
[00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:29.320] But they say, this event, is it the day where everyone understands that we were right all along?
[00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:31.640] UK tap water is broken.
[00:37:31.640 --> 00:37:34.120] Please protect yourself with a filter.
[00:37:34.120 --> 00:37:36.440] Again, just 99 pounds with the code urgent.
[00:37:36.440 --> 00:37:39.640] Stay safe and please drink filtered water.
[00:37:39.640 --> 00:37:55.160] So the ASA concluded that the urgent tone and the alarmist language conveyed the impression that drinking unfiltered tap water was a health risk, which they felt was likely to cause fear and that it exaggerated the health risks of UK drinking water and exploited people's fear that tap water across the UK was unsafe to drink.
[00:37:55.160 --> 00:37:56.520] And they said, do not do that again.
[00:37:56.520 --> 00:37:58.280] And I agree, that's bullshit.
[00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:03.240] It's not the only ad of theirs that wound them in a bit of hot water, filtered or otherwise.
[00:38:03.240 --> 00:38:09.160] I mentioned in a recent show that Facebook have a feature where you can check the past ads that have ran for a page.
[00:38:09.160 --> 00:38:11.160] And so I browsed the previous ads for Water Do.
[00:38:11.160 --> 00:38:19.000] I noticed one of them was marked with a disclaimer that it had been removed by Facebook's ad checkers because it was in breach of their advertising policies.
[00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:22.360] I thought, given Facebook's advertising policies, I better look at that one.
[00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:25.160] I thought that any old shite-through.
[00:38:25.560 --> 00:38:26.520] So the ad was from March 2020.
[00:38:26.520 --> 00:38:27.080] That's not true.
[00:38:27.080 --> 00:38:28.680] We get our stuff taken down all the time.
[00:38:28.680 --> 00:38:29.560] Yeah, that is true.
[00:38:29.560 --> 00:38:31.320] The ad was from March 2024.
[00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:33.800] It was titled, A Shocking Truth.
[00:38:33.800 --> 00:38:34.280] Okay.
[00:38:34.280 --> 00:38:38.360] The ad featured the text: quote, UK tap water is broken.
[00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:41.320] Then a red X, Forever Chemicals, Red X.
[00:38:41.320 --> 00:38:43.480] Microplastics, Red X.
[00:38:43.480 --> 00:38:50.000] Lead, Red X, Chlorine, Red X, Hormones, all swimming around in our water.
[00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:52.720] Them hormones, the hormones are swimming in our water.
[00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:54.800] But that was just the text.
[00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:58.000] But the ad had a video with it, and it was a guy in a baseball cap.
[00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:00.160] And I wanted to see what he had to say, so I clicked it.
[00:39:00.160 --> 00:39:05.520] And it opened with him saying, you know how in the last couple of weeks, everyone's been talking about this photo?
[00:39:05.520 --> 00:39:06.720] And he pointed a photo.
[00:39:06.720 --> 00:39:14.080] And the photo he points at was the photo released by Kate Middleton of her and her kids that everyone said was badly photoshopped and proved that she was dead.
[00:39:14.080 --> 00:39:16.320] Because that's what was happening in March 2024.
[00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:18.240] So they jumped on that.
[00:39:18.240 --> 00:39:19.600] That photo in this advert.
[00:39:19.600 --> 00:39:26.800] The guy said, everyone's been talking about this photo and about how maybe we can't trust the royal family and they've been covering up different health issues.
[00:39:26.800 --> 00:39:32.320] It got me thinking, do the royal family drink the same tap water that we're told is the best in the world?
[00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:34.080] So I thought, let me do some research.
[00:39:34.080 --> 00:39:37.040] And the results I found are actually shocking.
[00:39:37.040 --> 00:39:40.640] And then he points to a Telegraph article about when Obama visited the UK.
[00:39:40.640 --> 00:39:42.640] He was told not to drink London tap water.
[00:39:42.640 --> 00:39:45.200] His special advisors didn't want to risk London tap water.
[00:39:45.200 --> 00:39:49.520] And then there's another news article about how the Queen preferred bottled water to tap water.
[00:39:49.520 --> 00:39:56.000] And he concludes, maybe we shouldn't drink tap water if the billionaires and the royal family and the powerful people won't do it.
[00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:57.760] Maybe they know something we don't.
[00:39:57.760 --> 00:39:59.680] So you should buy a water filter.
[00:39:59.680 --> 00:40:07.280] Now you could go for bottled water, expensive, or you can go for like a really super expensive water filter, like a quokka or something, expensive.
[00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:09.440] But I would recommend a water 2.
[00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:15.280] And then he goes on, and it's clearly just one of those like adverts where you paid someone to give to deliver this kind of thing.
[00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:18.160] That's what passes for quality marketing from Water 2.
[00:40:18.160 --> 00:40:19.360] Back to their website for a moment.
[00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:28.080] They claim, note that Pod, the Pod 2.0, is about balancing the preservation of good minerals with the filtration of contaminants.
[00:40:28.080 --> 00:40:32.040] Because, as you mentioned, Alice, sometimes the stuff in the water is good for you.
[00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:34.040] And I'm pretty skeptical of this claim.
[00:40:34.280 --> 00:40:38.680] Partly because how is your water filter meant to know the good ones from the bad ones?
[00:40:38.680 --> 00:40:42.280] It's just a micron with like a 0.1 micron width across.
[00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:46.120] Yeah, it only works if the good things are really, really small and the bad things are really, really big.
[00:40:46.120 --> 00:40:47.800] Yeah, and I don't think that's not how that works.
[00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:53.400] Your filter can't, like, it's not like a bouncer or a traffic light where it's like, sorry, can I check your papers?
[00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:54.200] Right, you're getting through.
[00:40:54.200 --> 00:40:55.080] That's not how that works.
[00:40:55.320 --> 00:40:57.720] If it's small enough, it's going to get through, desirable or not.
[00:40:57.720 --> 00:41:07.480] But more to the point, when you look, if you Google what counts as beneficial minerals in water, I mean, what would you say would come up if you looked at what minerals are beneficial in drinking water?
[00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:08.760] Fluoride, calcium.
[00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:10.680] Yeah, fluoride's number one, isn't it?
[00:41:10.680 --> 00:41:13.560] But they've just released a product to filter fluoride out.
[00:41:13.880 --> 00:41:21.960] So we make sure that we have a balance of the good minerals with the bad minerals, and then we sell you a product to remove some of those good minerals, rather.
[00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:28.360] So, yeah, as far as I can tell, they started advertising the fluoride filter in February of this year.
[00:41:28.360 --> 00:41:34.280] So, after the change of administration in America, and after the Make America, America Healthy Again movement, and RFK Jr.
[00:41:34.440 --> 00:41:37.960] and the talk of removing fluoride in public water, all of that.
[00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:43.080] I think at the end of March, in fact, Utah became the first state to ban fluoride from drinking water.
[00:41:43.080 --> 00:41:45.800] So, around that time, they're coming out with this product.
[00:41:45.800 --> 00:41:53.160] And it feels to me at least a little bit like Water2 have seen the way that particular wind is blowing and they've jumped on it as a marketing trend.
[00:41:53.160 --> 00:42:02.200] Just like they jumped on the pandemic to sell hand sanitizer with a glamorous edge, just as they jumped on the water crisis and any headlines they could to sell their water filter.
[00:42:02.200 --> 00:42:08.360] They're just putting out a product this time, in my opinion, that yet again is designed to capitalize on fear in spite of the evidence.
[00:42:08.360 --> 00:42:12.840] In this case, they're going even further than the people calling to stop adding fluoride to water.
[00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:19.680] They're going to actively remove fluoride from drinking water, even where it's naturally occurring, as it is in some parts of the UK.
[00:42:19.680 --> 00:42:22.080] I don't know how effective the water 2 filters are.
[00:42:22.080 --> 00:42:32.960] I've no reason to think they don't filter water well, though, with all the caveats of whether there's even anything left, anything serious left to filter out once the water companies and the DUI have done their job.
[00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:39.760] But it seems pretty clear to me that the sales tactic range from questionable partnerships with celebrity endorsements to outright scaremongering.
[00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:43.760] Tap water in the UK is one of the cleanest and safest on the planet.
[00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:48.400] According to the Environmental Performance Index, it scores 97 out of a possible 100.
[00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:54.560] It's behind only Italy, America, Singapore, Canada, Germany, Switzerland, Norway, and Sweden.
[00:42:54.560 --> 00:43:07.520] Meanwhile, Water2 are trawling for news of water supply issues to scare you into getting a filter and then running ads with conspiracy videos about the royal family and powerful billionaires knowing something about the tap water that you don't.
[00:43:07.520 --> 00:43:12.000] For me, it's pretty clear which of those claims carry the most water.
[00:43:16.160 --> 00:43:17.760] So it's my birthday recently.
[00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:18.400] Very recently.
[00:43:19.120 --> 00:43:21.040] I'm recording it is today.
[00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:25.920] It will be, it is your birthday today, and it will be your birthday for at least three of the next shows.
[00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:26.640] That's true as well.
[00:43:26.640 --> 00:43:29.360] So you can say happy birthday to you on every one of those shows.
[00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:33.600] You're like the queen in that you have multiple birthdays and know something about tap water.
[00:43:33.600 --> 00:43:34.880] Many, many birthdays.
[00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:38.640] But so for my birthday, we went off and we did an escape room.
[00:43:38.640 --> 00:43:39.120] Yes.
[00:43:39.120 --> 00:43:44.240] Which coincidentally, and it was largely a coincidence, all three of us ended up in the same escape room.
[00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:44.720] We did.
[00:43:45.520 --> 00:43:46.320] It was a coincidence.
[00:43:46.720 --> 00:43:47.360] It wasn't like it wasn't.
[00:43:47.520 --> 00:43:48.480] Because it was quite a big group of us.
[00:43:48.560 --> 00:43:49.440] We were still across a couple of years ago.
[00:43:49.520 --> 00:43:54.720] There were two escape rooms, but one involved a lot of crawling, which you opted out because you're in a suit, and you opted out because you're in a dress.
[00:43:54.720 --> 00:43:56.800] And I'm not going to say to the listeners which way around that went.
[00:43:57.680 --> 00:43:59.200] And then too few people in that group.
[00:43:59.200 --> 00:44:02.440] So I was like, nah, but I'll join that one just because we needed to get moving, basically.
[00:44:02.440 --> 00:44:05.160] So, yeah, we all end up on the same one.
[00:43:59.920 --> 00:44:06.920] And it was a Jack the Ripper-themed.
[00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:09.320] It was very on-brand for you, Mike.
[00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:09.880] It was.
[00:44:09.880 --> 00:44:13.640] You know, despite I keep saying, I don't give a fuck about Jack the Ripper.
[00:44:13.640 --> 00:44:14.120] Somehow, it keeps me.
[00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:16.520] But you do keep talking about Jack the Ripper.
[00:44:16.520 --> 00:44:25.640] Yeah, you're going to end up being the country's leading ripperologist just as I knew so much about placebo, despite not having any interest in them of themselves as a concept.
[00:44:25.640 --> 00:44:33.240] So it was a kind of Jack the Ripper-themed escape room where we had to solve the Jack the Ripper case, which I think is ambitious.
[00:44:34.040 --> 00:44:35.720] Given it has never been solved.
[00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:38.920] I did suggest, could we just write Aaron Kasminski and just leave?
[00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:39.400] He wasn't an option.
[00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:40.440] He wasn't even on the list.
[00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:42.600] So we should update the record on that.
[00:44:42.600 --> 00:44:44.440] Apparently, he's clear.
[00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:46.360] There were six people on the list, including Lewis Carroll.
[00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:47.160] Lewis Carroll?
[00:44:47.480 --> 00:44:49.560] I felt that was important.
[00:44:50.120 --> 00:44:51.320] Was Lewis Carroll a wrongen?
[00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:53.720] I mean, everyone back then was a wrongen to some extent.
[00:44:54.360 --> 00:44:57.400] Whether he was literally Jack the Ripper or not, I suspect not.
[00:44:57.400 --> 00:45:00.920] I'm going to Google, while we're talking, I'm going to Google, was Lewis Carroll a wrong?
[00:45:03.160 --> 00:45:06.040] And spoilers for listeners, we fucked it.
[00:45:06.280 --> 00:45:08.120] Yeah, we didn't do very well, did we?
[00:45:08.600 --> 00:45:10.200] We couldn't even get into the room.
[00:45:10.680 --> 00:45:12.440] We spent a long time just trying to get into the room.
[00:45:12.520 --> 00:45:31.000] I was a challenge number one because she, the lady who was like, when you do escape rooms, for listeners who haven't done escape rooms, there's usually somebody who gives you the instructions before you go in, maybe gives you a bit of flavour on how the kind of situation that you find yourselves in, locked in an escape room, and then tells you, I'm going to be sat in a room over there.
[00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:32.760] I can see you on the cameras.
[00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:35.240] If you get really stuck, I'll give you a clue.
[00:45:35.240 --> 00:45:39.560] If you need some help, just give me a shout and I'll give you a clue.
[00:45:39.560 --> 00:45:45.360] And so she locked us into a little cage that we had to get through the locked cage to get into the room.
[00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:46.800] That was the first puzzle, right?
[00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:47.920] That was the first puzzle.
[00:45:44.920 --> 00:45:50.000] And in that cage, there were like clothes hung on the walls.
[00:45:50.160 --> 00:45:52.800] Well, like a sweater, there was a jacket, there was like a cape on it.
[00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:55.760] So we thought, oh, the key's probably in pocket or one of those things.
[00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:58.240] So we're seeing it, but the first one will be an easy piece.
[00:45:58.560 --> 00:46:02.960] Because we just need to get into the room and then they'll get increasingly more difficult.
[00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:04.560] We failed the first at the first hurdle.
[00:46:04.720 --> 00:46:07.440] We must have been there 10-15 minutes trying to get through that fucking cage.
[00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:13.040] To be honest, it was particularly annoying because I'd started feeling for the area that the answer was.
[00:46:13.040 --> 00:46:15.920] It was like a stick that we needed to get out, like held on the wall.
[00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:23.280] I'd started feeling for that, but because we only had two small, very underpowered lanterns between us, I gave up because I thought, we're not going to be able to get anything like this.
[00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:24.720] It was very, very dark in there.
[00:46:25.520 --> 00:46:26.480] Update, by the way.
[00:46:26.640 --> 00:46:27.680] Yeah, Rondan, apparently.
[00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:33.600] Yeah, I think I'd heard something recently about some behaviour.
[00:46:34.560 --> 00:46:39.760] But eventually, we, you know, we were in there for like, you know, 10-15 minutes trying to get out of this fucking cage.
[00:46:40.080 --> 00:46:40.800] It wasn't helpful.
[00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:42.400] Were there five of us in the room?
[00:46:42.560 --> 00:46:43.200] Five of us in the spring.
[00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:47.760] And it was quite a small space and it was difficult to move around.
[00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:50.560] So that made it a little bit extra challenging for feelings.
[00:46:51.200 --> 00:46:54.720] It is odd that it's an escape room where we didn't have to escape the room.
[00:46:54.720 --> 00:46:57.120] We did have to have to get into the room to get in there.
[00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:06.720] And there is quite often, I've done quite a few escape rooms, and usually there is a first hurdle of getting through a door or a gate or from a smaller room into a bigger room.
[00:47:06.720 --> 00:47:11.760] And like, we expected that, but we still fully failed.
[00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:16.080] Not just like struggled, not just it took us a while.
[00:47:16.080 --> 00:47:18.400] We had to ask for a clue to get into the room.
[00:47:18.560 --> 00:47:20.240] It was just like there's a stick.
[00:47:20.240 --> 00:47:21.280] There's just a big stick.
[00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:25.600] It was you eventually, Alice, who went, Charlotte, are we missing something really obvious?
[00:47:25.600 --> 00:47:29.080] And then this voice came over the tunnel that just went, yes.
[00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:33.720] Oh, fucking hell, fucking group of fucking idiots.
[00:47:34.040 --> 00:47:38.280] It wasn't really as puzzle-solvy as a lot of escape rooms I've done.
[00:47:38.360 --> 00:47:44.840] It was more be in this room in the dark while we like occasionally fuck with you and give you jump scares, essentially, which I was fine with.
[00:47:44.840 --> 00:47:47.320] It was more absolutely more ghost train than escape room.
[00:47:47.640 --> 00:47:57.160] Yes, but like, so you get different kinds of escape rooms, and a lot of them are very puzzle-based where you've got multiple locks and you've just got to do the puzzle that solves the lock.
[00:47:57.160 --> 00:47:58.520] And we've done a few of those before.
[00:47:58.520 --> 00:48:10.200] I've done some that are more like the one we did that are a bit more abstract, where you've got to smell something and pick the thing that smells right for that lock and have magnets instead of passcodes and stuff.
[00:48:10.200 --> 00:48:18.920] This was more like that, but not quite as whole hog as the fully abstract ones tend to be.
[00:48:18.920 --> 00:48:22.520] So, where we say, oh, there was a smell we had to get right.
[00:48:22.520 --> 00:48:26.120] That one then mapped two numbers on a padlock.
[00:48:26.120 --> 00:48:26.600] Yes.
[00:48:26.600 --> 00:48:29.800] But there was one where it was very much a she's watching us in the other room.
[00:48:29.960 --> 00:48:31.240] Yeah, if we do what she wants.
[00:48:31.560 --> 00:48:33.880] Releases the lock and opens the box.
[00:48:34.200 --> 00:48:35.800] At least three of those, I think.
[00:48:35.800 --> 00:48:36.360] Yes.
[00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:36.760] Yeah.
[00:48:37.080 --> 00:48:44.040] Which is a little bit frustrating because it's like, I just need to, what, like, stand on one foot and, like, jump up and down three times, and she'll open the box.
[00:48:44.120 --> 00:48:45.720] It was very sort of Skinner's pigeons.
[00:48:45.720 --> 00:48:52.680] You know, the pigeons that when they were trying to get to just perform the right ritual the right way and she'll give us a little breadcrumb.
[00:48:5

Prompt 2: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 3: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 4: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Prompt 5: Context Setup

You are an expert data extractor tasked with analyzing a podcast transcript. 
I will provide you with part 2 of 2 from a podcast transcript. 
I will then ask you to extract different types of information from this content in subsequent messages. Please confirm you have received and understood the transcript content.

Transcript section:
 of escape rooms I've done.
[00:47:38.360 --> 00:47:44.840] It was more be in this room in the dark while we like occasionally fuck with you and give you jump scares, essentially, which I was fine with.
[00:47:44.840 --> 00:47:47.320] It was more absolutely more ghost train than escape room.
[00:47:47.640 --> 00:47:57.160] Yes, but like, so you get different kinds of escape rooms, and a lot of them are very puzzle-based where you've got multiple locks and you've just got to do the puzzle that solves the lock.
[00:47:57.160 --> 00:47:58.520] And we've done a few of those before.
[00:47:58.520 --> 00:48:10.200] I've done some that are more like the one we did that are a bit more abstract, where you've got to smell something and pick the thing that smells right for that lock and have magnets instead of passcodes and stuff.
[00:48:10.200 --> 00:48:18.920] This was more like that, but not quite as whole hog as the fully abstract ones tend to be.
[00:48:18.920 --> 00:48:22.520] So, where we say, oh, there was a smell we had to get right.
[00:48:22.520 --> 00:48:26.120] That one then mapped two numbers on a padlock.
[00:48:26.120 --> 00:48:26.600] Yes.
[00:48:26.600 --> 00:48:29.800] But there was one where it was very much a she's watching us in the other room.
[00:48:29.960 --> 00:48:31.240] Yeah, if we do what she wants.
[00:48:31.560 --> 00:48:33.880] Releases the lock and opens the box.
[00:48:34.200 --> 00:48:35.800] At least three of those, I think.
[00:48:35.800 --> 00:48:36.360] Yes.
[00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:36.760] Yeah.
[00:48:37.080 --> 00:48:44.040] Which is a little bit frustrating because it's like, I just need to, what, like, stand on one foot and, like, jump up and down three times, and she'll open the box.
[00:48:44.120 --> 00:48:45.720] It was very sort of Skinner's pigeons.
[00:48:45.720 --> 00:48:52.680] You know, the pigeons that when they were trying to get to just perform the right ritual the right way and she'll give us a little breadcrumb.
[00:48:52.680 --> 00:48:53.320] But it was still fun.
[00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:54.040] I enjoyed it.
[00:48:54.040 --> 00:48:55.000] It was really fun.
[00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:57.960] But also, they sent actors into the room to fuck with us.
[00:48:57.960 --> 00:48:59.000] I did not like that.
[00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:01.480] You know, which was a bit, it was a bit.
[00:49:01.480 --> 00:49:04.440] So obviously, Charlotte got the, because Nicola was on our team.
[00:49:04.760 --> 00:49:07.640] Obviously, Charlotte got the measure of Nicola early early on.
[00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:11.400] Oh, could you with the glasses like go over towards this door and do that?
[00:49:11.400 --> 00:49:12.520] And just you and no one else.
[00:49:12.680 --> 00:49:17.920] Just you and no one else, because she knew Nicola would shriek at the after jumping out.
[00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:20.880] Post this thing through the letterbox and put your hand in this hole.
[00:49:21.200 --> 00:49:22.880] And Nicola's like, sure, I'll do that.
[00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:25.360] And then was surprised when something grabbed her hand.
[00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:28.480] And then she shrieked five times in a row trying to get it.
[00:49:29.200 --> 00:49:34.160] I was like, Nicola, you do have to put your hand in there though, because we can't carry on until you do get that for us.
[00:49:34.160 --> 00:49:34.640] Yeah.
[00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:43.200] At one point, we got locked into a butcher's back room, like a butcher's room, and the door was closed.
[00:49:43.200 --> 00:49:46.000] And I was like, I don't trust that fucking door.
[00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:48.000] Either something is going to happen with that door.
[00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:49.920] Charlotte had asked us to close the door behind us.
[00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:51.520] This was my issue.
[00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:53.440] She'd asked us to close the door.
[00:49:53.440 --> 00:49:57.120] We'd all walked to the other side of the room and started looking at a different puzzle.
[00:49:57.440 --> 00:50:00.800] And in that process, I forgot that she'd asked us to close the door.
[00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:14.080] So then when I went back over to the door to look at the back of the door, it didn't occur to me at all that something would happen then, which is why I screamed and I've not screamed because a hand came through the door and grabbed me when I wasn't looking.
[00:50:14.080 --> 00:50:16.080] So I was looking at the thing on the door.
[00:50:16.080 --> 00:50:19.600] So I felt the grab before I saw any kind of movement.
[00:50:19.600 --> 00:50:21.680] And that completely threw me off.
[00:50:21.680 --> 00:50:24.000] I was using Rachel as a human shield at this point.
[00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:26.080] I was like, there's definitely something happening at that door.
[00:50:26.080 --> 00:50:29.280] So I've just got to strategically place Rachel between me and the door.
[00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:34.160] As we're talking about it, I've just figured out one of the clues as to why it was meant to be a clue to who the murderer was.
[00:50:34.160 --> 00:50:34.640] Right.
[00:50:34.720 --> 00:50:35.680] Just figured out right now.
[00:50:35.680 --> 00:50:36.880] It's useless to everyone, but yeah.
[00:50:37.600 --> 00:50:39.040] I think that really wound me up.
[00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:40.400] We got it wrong.
[00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:47.520] I think the guess, the first guess that we made, and I won't go through what the real answer was in case listeners who are local want to go and play this play this game.
[00:50:47.520 --> 00:50:49.920] But the first guess that we made was Walter Sickett.
[00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:54.840] And Walter Sickert was a genuine person who was a ripper suspect.
[00:50:56.240 --> 00:50:58.400] I won't say the real answer, but I will start to narrow the answer.
[00:50:58.560 --> 00:51:00.120] I will narrow it down, yeah.
[00:50:59.520 --> 00:51:04.520] Um, because he was a genuine ripper suspect, and I thought, maybe it is.
[00:51:04.600 --> 00:51:09.080] And one of the reasons we thought it was Walter Sickert was because he was listed as the butcher.
[00:51:09.080 --> 00:51:12.360] He was one of the he was down as the butcher in the game.
[00:51:12.360 --> 00:51:16.440] And in the butcher's room, there was a dead body hold on a meat hook.
[00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:20.760] Even if he's not the ripper, he's killed some fucker because he's here.
[00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:23.000] Bring him in for questioning at the very least.
[00:51:23.640 --> 00:51:25.480] That definitely threw us a little bit.
[00:51:25.480 --> 00:51:40.920] And I think, like, partly because we've done the doing the puzzles to solve the clues that we need to do to get through to the room, and we're getting the jump scares from the actors in the room, and it's too dark, and there's too many of us, and we've collected by this point like 12 different pieces of laminated paper.
[00:51:41.560 --> 00:51:49.880] The doing the puzzle bit at the end was just a proper logic puzzle that we would normally all be quite good at, but we were just not in the right frame of mind.
[00:51:50.440 --> 00:51:51.640] But we're completely fucked up.
[00:51:51.640 --> 00:51:54.520] Scared out of our wits doing a logic puzzle in the dark.
[00:51:55.400 --> 00:51:57.640] It's not conducive, really, is it?
[00:52:01.480 --> 00:52:05.560] So, QED tickets for QED are hurtling, hurtling out the fucking day.
[00:52:05.720 --> 00:52:07.320] They really are selling really well.
[00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:10.120] We literally had our fastest ever day of sales.
[00:52:10.120 --> 00:52:11.640] It was our fastest ever day of sales.
[00:52:11.800 --> 00:52:13.000] We talked on the last show.
[00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:15.480] We said, hey, maybe if you're lucky, there's some golad in it.
[00:52:15.640 --> 00:52:16.040] Fuck that.
[00:52:16.040 --> 00:52:16.440] No.
[00:52:16.440 --> 00:52:17.240] They went in nine minutes.
[00:52:17.560 --> 00:52:21.160] Nine minutes, all of the dinner tickets went, which is obviously there will be food options.
[00:52:21.560 --> 00:52:22.680] There's always a rebel dinner.
[00:52:22.680 --> 00:52:24.840] There'll be several species of rebel dinner.
[00:52:24.840 --> 00:52:27.960] So you will be able to have a nice meal out with other attendees.
[00:52:27.960 --> 00:52:30.360] That will all be arranged organically while you're there.
[00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:34.120] But it was our biggest ever first day sales for QED by some margin.
[00:52:34.120 --> 00:52:35.800] So the tickets are hurtling out the door.
[00:52:35.800 --> 00:52:42.120] And if you would like to come to QED, you need to get your skates on because there is a very real chance that we're going to fully sell out this year.
[00:52:42.120 --> 00:52:43.240] I think that's very likely.
[00:52:43.240 --> 00:52:44.440] So you should definitely do that.
[00:52:44.440 --> 00:52:48.160] You can find more information about QED at our website, which is QDCon.org.
[00:52:48.160 --> 00:52:50.480] Tickets are £179.
[00:52:44.840 --> 00:52:52.000] That gets you the full weekend of content.
[00:52:52.240 --> 00:52:54.160] There's no bonuses and no extras, no add-ons.
[00:52:54.160 --> 00:52:58.400] There's no, oh, we'll charge you for having lunch with Richard Dawkins or any nonsense like that.
[00:52:58.400 --> 00:53:01.840] It's just, you know, we'll charge you to not have lunch with Richard Dawkins.
[00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:05.360] Like, give us money, or you're having lunch with Richard Dawkins.
[00:53:06.080 --> 00:53:08.320] So, yeah, qdcon.org.
[00:53:08.320 --> 00:53:10.560] Marsh, you're also doing a talk.
[00:53:10.560 --> 00:53:13.200] Yes, I haven't given a public talk for a little bit.
[00:53:13.200 --> 00:53:21.840] It feels like I've not been on the road for a little bit, but I'm doing all of the road all in one go because I'm going to Plymouth for Plymouth Humanists on the 27th.
[00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:27.520] I'm going to be giving a talk, actually, I'm going to be giving a version of the talk that I'm going to give at QED, in fact.
[00:53:27.520 --> 00:53:32.000] So if you are in the Plymouth region, you can get an advanced version of that.
[00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:38.880] Like when comedians do a work in progress, because I expect you'll do you'll you'll you'll fluff it up a bit for the QED mainstay.
[00:53:39.120 --> 00:53:45.440] Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to make any promises, but it's a work in progress about using data to counter quackery.
[00:53:45.440 --> 00:54:00.880] I'm going to be talking there about a project, an investigation that I spent a lot of last year on and alluded to at times on this show, but haven't got to talking about yet, mainly because it's something I want to get in a place where I can put it together in a published way first before I talk about it.
[00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:04.000] But I will talk about on the show probably after QED.
[00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:05.520] Maybe I'll say I'll do it after QED.
[00:54:05.520 --> 00:54:13.920] So if you want to hear what that interesting investigation is, you can come to Plymouth on the 27th, or you can go, I think, to Sheffield at some point in September.
[00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:14.960] I'll tell you close the time.
[00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:16.800] Or you can come to QED, buy your QED tickets.
[00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:23.200] But yes, so go to the just Google Plymouth Humanists and you will find out all of the details for that.
[00:54:23.200 --> 00:54:24.320] And I'm looking forward.
[00:54:24.320 --> 00:54:29.120] I've been down to Plymouth a couple of times to do bits and bobs and I've always enjoyed it.
[00:54:29.120 --> 00:54:39.400] So yeah, if you go to the B Bar at the Barbican Theatre on Castle Street in Plymouth, that's at 7.30 on Tuesday, the 27th of May.
[00:54:39.400 --> 00:54:43.960] I will be there talking all about using data to counter quackery and alternative medicine.
[00:54:43.960 --> 00:54:49.160] And I also want to give a very quick plug for the Skeptics in the Pob Online Discord channel.
[00:54:49.160 --> 00:54:49.800] Yes, yeah.
[00:54:49.800 --> 00:54:51.240] I'll put a link to that in the show notes.
[00:54:51.240 --> 00:54:55.720] I've put a link to the show a couple of shows ago, but I'll put a link to the show notes in this one as well.
[00:54:55.720 --> 00:54:57.480] That's a fantastic little community.
[00:54:57.480 --> 00:54:58.760] Lots of great skeptics.
[00:54:58.920 --> 00:55:02.280] It's run by the folks at Skeptics in the Pop Online, who are brilliant folks.
[00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:06.840] And you can also, there's a dedicated channel there for Skeptics with a K, so you can drop in there.
[00:55:07.560 --> 00:55:13.000] And we're all in there and checking out what's going on and we'll respond most of the time.
[00:55:13.000 --> 00:55:13.320] We will.
[00:55:13.320 --> 00:55:31.240] And if you join the Discord now, if you join the Discord soon after hearing this, you might be able to find a link pinned to the top, which is a fantastic little program designed by one of our listeners, by Seligman, who has transcribed all of our shows and made them keyword searchable.
[00:55:31.240 --> 00:55:33.960] So you can find interesting things out like that.
[00:55:33.960 --> 00:55:39.720] Mike has mentioned the words Doctor Who on a phenomenally large number of shows.
[00:55:39.720 --> 00:55:42.680] 221 episodes, Mike has said the words Doctor Who.
[00:55:42.840 --> 00:55:44.040] Not enough, in my opinion.
[00:55:44.200 --> 00:55:45.000] 221.
[00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:45.960] This is episode what?
[00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:47.160] This is episode 415.
[00:55:47.160 --> 00:55:47.720] 415.
[00:55:47.720 --> 00:55:51.480] So on more than half of all episodes, you talked about Doctor Who.
[00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:53.240] That is ridiculous.
[00:55:53.880 --> 00:55:57.080] That is insufficient, is how I'm going to characterize that.
[00:55:57.080 --> 00:55:59.160] But yeah, so you can go there, find that link.
[00:55:59.160 --> 00:56:01.480] Also, you can go to our Patreon, if you want to support the show.
[00:56:01.480 --> 00:56:03.880] You'll notice we've moved this, what we've been up to, towards the back end of the show.
[00:56:03.880 --> 00:56:09.960] We're just want to try this out for a little bit, see if there's kind of an interesting way of doing the show, get you straight into skeptical content from the start.
[00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:10.840] But we're not going to get rid of it.
[00:56:10.840 --> 00:56:22.720] So, obviously, if you do like the show and you want to support it and support us, you can hosts if you go to patreon.com forward slash skeptics with a K, and you can keep the show going and keep us going.
[00:56:22.720 --> 00:56:24.800] Aside from that, then I think that's all we have time for.
[00:56:24.800 --> 00:56:25.440] I think it is.
[00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:28.000] All that remains then is for me to thank Marsh for coming on today.
[00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:28.400] Cheers.
[00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:29.360] Thank you to Alice.
[00:56:29.360 --> 00:56:30.000] Thank you.
[00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:32.480] We have been Skeptics with a K, and we will see you next time.
[00:56:32.480 --> 00:56:33.120] Bye, no.
[00:56:33.120 --> 00:56:33.840] Bye.
[00:56:38.640 --> 00:56:43.680] Skeptics with a K is produced by Skeptic Media in association with the Merseyside Skeptic Society.
[00:56:43.680 --> 00:56:52.720] For questions or comments, email podcast at skepticswithakay.org, and you can find out more about Merseyside Skeptics at merseyside skeptics.org.uk.

Prompt 6: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 7: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 8: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Full Transcript

[00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.200] I chose FDU for my education for numerous reasons.
[00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:12.000] The first being the great reputation that the Silverman College of Business has, the amazing culture with the faculty and staff, and also the very convenient location to New York City.
[00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:16.320] I seized the moment at FDU and now I'm in the career of my dreams.
[00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:21.840] Ford was built on the belief that the world doesn't get to decide what you're capable of.
[00:00:21.840 --> 00:00:22.560] You do.
[00:00:22.880 --> 00:00:26.320] So ask yourself, can you or can't you?
[00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:31.120] Can you load up a Ford F-150 and build your dream with sweat and steel?
[00:00:31.120 --> 00:00:34.800] Can you chase thrills and conquer curves in a Mustang?
[00:00:34.800 --> 00:00:39.360] Can you take a Bronco to where the map ends and adventure begins?
[00:00:39.360 --> 00:00:43.360] Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right.
[00:00:43.360 --> 00:00:44.240] Ready?
[00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:46.240] Set Ford.
[00:00:52.640 --> 00:01:00.960] It is Thursday, the 22nd of May, 2025, and you're listening to Skeptics with a K, the podcast for science, reason, and critical thinking.
[00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:12.960] Skeptics with a K is produced by Skeptic Media in association with the Merseyside Skeptic Society, a non-profit organization for the promotion of scientific skepticism on Merseyside around the UK and internationally.
[00:01:12.960 --> 00:01:14.400] I'm your host, Mike Hall.
[00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:15.760] With me today is Marsh.
[00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:16.400] Hello.
[00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:17.280] And Alice.
[00:01:17.280 --> 00:01:18.400] Hello.
[00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:21.440] So I'm currently having my bathroom redone.
[00:01:21.440 --> 00:01:22.560] Well, that's exciting.
[00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:24.400] As we sit in my office recording.
[00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:27.760] We've had a year collectively of just renovations.
[00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:29.280] A lot of renovations going on.
[00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:30.160] Yes, we have.
[00:01:30.160 --> 00:01:30.880] That is very true.
[00:01:30.880 --> 00:01:32.400] But we're sat here in my office.
[00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:34.560] We're sometimes recording in my living room.
[00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:34.720] Yeah.
[00:01:34.720 --> 00:01:36.240] We're currently recording in my office.
[00:01:36.240 --> 00:01:39.200] My office is the wall adjacent to the bathroom.
[00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:47.520] So I've spent the entire day with men doing things about a foot and a half from my head with loud various implements and things.
[00:01:47.520 --> 00:01:49.600] This wasn't meant to be a what I've been up to, by the way.
[00:01:49.600 --> 00:01:51.360] It's just this is what I've been up to.
[00:01:51.360 --> 00:01:56.080] But it is also what my story is going to be about.
[00:01:56.080 --> 00:02:07.800] As I was actually writing this, there was a man using a significantly sized drill to chip and chisel away some of these like horrible, awful mosaic tiles that were on the floor of my bathroom.
[00:02:07.800 --> 00:02:08.440] Oh, yeah.
[00:02:08.440 --> 00:02:09.720] That were there when we moved in.
[00:02:09.720 --> 00:02:11.480] They're like rough to the feel.
[00:02:11.480 --> 00:02:12.280] They were there when we moved.
[00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:15.000] We hated them from day one, and day one was 11 years ago.
[00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:19.320] And they disappeared about two hours ago.
[00:02:19.320 --> 00:02:22.840] I do find the process of having worked on my house like incredibly stressful.
[00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:24.840] I know you're unbearable at the moment.
[00:02:25.320 --> 00:02:27.160] It's only day one and you're unbearable.
[00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:30.520] No, it's the thing is, my bathroom was being done for three weeks.
[00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:32.120] It's not even the disruption.
[00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:33.320] And I don't have a second bathroom.
[00:02:33.320 --> 00:02:34.040] You don't have a second bathroom.
[00:02:34.200 --> 00:02:35.160] I do have a second bathroom.
[00:02:35.160 --> 00:02:35.560] I do.
[00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:38.440] I need to get him to turn the electric back on in my shower downstairs.
[00:02:38.440 --> 00:02:39.240] Separate question.
[00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:40.760] It's not even the disruption that bothers me.
[00:02:40.760 --> 00:02:42.920] It's the pressure of making sure you get everything right.
[00:02:42.920 --> 00:02:44.840] That's a bit that plays on my brain.
[00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:51.560] Like all of the what-ifs and the things that could go wrong and things you should have asked them about and things you should have considered before they started.
[00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:58.360] And like the process of picking out things for the bathroom is just stressful in its sheer tediousness, the boringness.
[00:02:58.360 --> 00:03:02.760] I've had to have genuine opinions on bathroom sinks.
[00:03:02.760 --> 00:03:06.360] Like for Americans, the basin in the bathroom, I had to have an opinion on that.
[00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:09.480] I don't have an opinion on a bathroom sink.
[00:03:09.480 --> 00:03:09.880] No.
[00:03:09.880 --> 00:03:12.120] In my head, you've got a sink.
[00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:13.000] You need to have a sink.
[00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:15.080] You go to the sink shop and you say, one, please.
[00:03:15.480 --> 00:03:18.200] And they give you a sink and then you get a sink.
[00:03:18.200 --> 00:03:19.000] I agree.
[00:03:19.720 --> 00:03:24.760] I have opinions both on bathroom sinks and on kitchen sinks, and they are entirely pragmatic opinions.
[00:03:24.760 --> 00:03:30.200] In that, my parents had their bathroom done a while ago, the family bathroom, the room that I would use when I visit.
[00:03:30.200 --> 00:03:33.120] And they had a really shallow bathroom sink.
[00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:36.440] Put in one of those, like, really long and wide ones, but it's like really, really shallow.
[00:03:36.440 --> 00:03:37.720] Shallow, yeah, like a big trough.
[00:03:37.720 --> 00:03:43.320] It's a fucking nightmare if you want to wash your face or brush your teeth, especially because the water doesn't get to the whole part of the sink.
[00:03:43.320 --> 00:03:48.240] So if you spit your toothpaste in the wrong place, like you've got to get a cup to like rinse the toothpaste.
[00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:49.200] It's ridiculous.
[00:03:49.200 --> 00:03:49.680] It's awful.
[00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:50.720] So my opinion is not those.
[00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:59.520] Well, I would never have that because I don't have that amount of space as the country bathroom that you have in your parents' pile, country pile that your parents have.
[00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:02.560] I'll say it's not that big a house, but it's pretty big.
[00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:11.520] But my kitchen opinion is, my kitchen sink opinion is those beautiful ceramic farmhouse style sinks.
[00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:13.520] Beautiful, stunning sinks.
[00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:14.720] Absolutely gorgeous.
[00:04:15.200 --> 00:04:16.240] Completely impractical.
[00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:16.960] Massively sold.
[00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:18.560] Yeah, I hate them.
[00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:19.680] Anybody's life who has them.
[00:04:19.840 --> 00:04:22.000] It's going to drop something in it and it's going to crack.
[00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:22.560] Yes.
[00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:27.120] And so when we had our kitchen done a few years ago, it was very much a, yeah, I think they're gorgeous.
[00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:29.840] I would like a plastic sink.
[00:04:29.840 --> 00:04:32.400] Not plastic, but you know, like the fancy plastic that they use these days.
[00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:34.160] I want something durable.
[00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:34.800] Yeah.
[00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:35.840] So yeah, this is the stuff.
[00:04:35.840 --> 00:04:36.320] There's options.
[00:04:36.320 --> 00:04:40.720] There's shape and size and taps and plugs and pedestals and vanity cabinets and colours and finishes.
[00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:45.840] And I just want water to come out when I wanted to and then go away when I'm done with it.
[00:04:45.840 --> 00:04:46.080] Yeah.
[00:04:46.080 --> 00:04:48.240] That's all I care about in the sink of the bathroom.
[00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:51.680] Those are my requirements for any sink, bathroom or otherwise.
[00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:53.360] Have water in when I want.
[00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:54.960] Stop having water when I decide.
[00:04:55.280 --> 00:04:56.160] Easy to clean.
[00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:56.800] Easy to clean.
[00:04:56.800 --> 00:04:58.080] Okay, I'll take easy to clean.
[00:04:58.080 --> 00:05:03.120] But maybe Facebook is aware that I've been thinking about bathrooms and water supplies lately.
[00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:08.400] Or maybe it's completely unrelated, but I was just looking for a contrived way of getting to what I want to talk about today.
[00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:18.480] But either way, I was scrolling Facebook and I came across an advert that is definitely sink-related enough to make the preamble their worthwhile texture rather than needless digression.
[00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:27.280] Because it was for a product that looks essentially, the picture was for essentially, it looked like a pair of flasks, like flasks that you'd have tea in, like these sort of like canister type things.
[00:05:27.280 --> 00:05:28.480] One was red, one was black.
[00:05:28.480 --> 00:06:53.320] They both had water 2 written on both of them and they were under a sink plumbed into piping like the sequel yeah they were both the sequel yes absolutely yeah okay they were plumbed into piping and the ad had sticky notes on it which read the best underlined way to filter fluoride and chlorine reduces 98.4% of fluoride 95.28% of chlorine it's not ideal though is it really because well because your teeth are gonna rot out your face yeah yeah so this is this is the problem so these are the water 2 water filters which you hook into your water supply on sort of the water as it comes into your sink right before you need it you do that and they'll remove all that nasty chlorine and fluoride from your water in fact this is a the water 2 fluoride filter add-on is what we're talking about that is an add-on to the existing device which is called the water one no it's called the water 2 2.0 starter kit it's the original device so the point is this is the next generation of of tap water i think it's the next generation of their products but i don't know what they called their original product actually they might have called it a water 2 and then they called this the water 2 2.0 exactly yeah so water 2 is the the the brand name is about next generation water and this is this is actually a second so the how to put this the water 2.
[00:06:53.560 --> 00:07:04.160] water 2 2.0 starter kit is their second product second generation of that second generation and now they've added a fluoride yeah it's a misguided name in a lot of ways because it's very confusing.
[00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:06.480] The sequel is never better than the original.
[00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:10.720] No, it's pretty accurate anyway it is a rare day that the sequel is better.
[00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:12.960] Like Terminator 2, I think, is the only one i can think of.
[00:07:12.960 --> 00:07:13.360] Yeah, that's right.
[00:07:13.520 --> 00:07:15.920] Whether the sequel is probably better than the original.
[00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:17.520] It's not a widespread thing.
[00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:20.320] No, well, I'm not sure the water here is better than the original.
[00:07:20.320 --> 00:07:28.080] But if you don't, so you to get the Water 2 fluoride filter add-on, you have to already have a Water 2 2.0 starter kit filter.
[00:07:28.080 --> 00:07:31.920] If you don't have that, you can buy them bundled together for £228.
[00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:35.280] Or if you act right now, just £199.
[00:07:35.280 --> 00:07:41.760] The filter in it only lasts for a year because the filter is going to clog up with stuff and the activated various bits in it are going to lose effectiveness.
[00:07:41.760 --> 00:07:45.280] At which point, it's another £99 per year for a replacement capsule.
[00:07:45.280 --> 00:07:45.440] Right?
[00:07:45.440 --> 00:07:50.960] So you kind of locking yourself into a proprietary technology you've got to re-up every year every year.
[00:07:50.960 --> 00:07:52.640] So let's start with these starter kits.
[00:07:52.640 --> 00:07:54.880] That seems like a very sensible beginning to the story.
[00:07:54.880 --> 00:07:56.320] Let's start with these starter kits.
[00:07:56.320 --> 00:07:57.360] They seem very popular.
[00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:04.560] When I went on the website for the product page, a little text box over the image said 400 plus bought today.
[00:08:04.880 --> 00:08:10.160] And I say text box very specifically because, as far as I could tell, it was a static item on the site.
[00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:12.000] It didn't appear to be dynamic.
[00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:12.480] Okay.
[00:08:12.960 --> 00:08:15.760] So, and when I checked it a different day, it also said 400 plus.
[00:08:15.760 --> 00:08:16.240] So who knows?
[00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:18.000] Maybe they really going in every day.
[00:08:18.080 --> 00:08:22.800] Someone is going in manually every day, counting how many sales they've had so far and updating it.
[00:08:22.960 --> 00:08:24.720] Well, I thought that would have to be not every day.
[00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:26.880] That would have to be on an ongoing basis throughout the day.
[00:08:26.960 --> 00:08:29.040] It says 400 plus bought today.
[00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:32.720] So I didn't check in the morning whether it said 200 plus bought today or 100 plus.
[00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:34.080] I'll check tomorrow morning.
[00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:38.240] I suspect it'll say 400 plus, which means 12 or 1 P AM.
[00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:41.760] Like after midnight, everyone rushes out, like QD tickets.
[00:08:42.640 --> 00:08:47.440] As soon as a day comes out, people rush to buy 400 of them all at once.
[00:08:47.680 --> 00:08:49.920] And it suddenly sells out very quickly.
[00:08:49.920 --> 00:08:55.200] Speaking of which, QD tickets are currently on sale, but depending when the show goes out, they may not be.
[00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:56.560] There's been a rush of demand.
[00:08:56.560 --> 00:09:03.320] So if you are thinking of coming, you might want to towards what I'm saying is we're going to be recording a couple of episodes in this recording session.
[00:08:58.800 --> 00:09:05.320] We're going to be recording ads for QD in all of them.
[00:09:05.560 --> 00:09:09.080] We may be deleting ads for QD out of some recordings.
[00:09:09.400 --> 00:09:13.160] So why might people need a water filter on their sinks?
[00:09:13.160 --> 00:09:15.960] Well, they explain on the product page for their main filter.
[00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:17.960] They say, we chlorinate our water.
[00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:19.480] This is the royal we.
[00:09:19.800 --> 00:09:20.600] This is Britain.
[00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:25.960] We chlorinate our water across nearly every water system to disinfect and kill bacteria, such as E.
[00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:26.920] coli.
[00:09:26.920 --> 00:09:27.800] Definitely do not want E.
[00:09:27.800 --> 00:09:30.520] coli, it says, in brackets, definitely do not want that.
[00:09:30.520 --> 00:09:35.160] But that chlorine shouldn't be there when we drink through that grim chemical smell.
[00:09:35.160 --> 00:09:35.880] Why?
[00:09:35.880 --> 00:09:45.080] The chemical smell of chlorine can be immediately off-putting for drinkers, and we see our customers transform their water immediately after installing their water too.
[00:09:45.400 --> 00:09:47.720] I have quite a sensitive sense of smell.
[00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:50.440] I have never been able to smell chlorine in tap water.
[00:09:50.680 --> 00:10:01.880] I'm sure we're all familiar with that sensation of when you turn on the tap and suddenly the room is filled with a chlorine smell and it's you're basically in the World War I trenches and you're like, how am I even surviving this?
[00:10:01.880 --> 00:10:07.880] Well, you say that, but the next line of their website, chlorine is an issue smelt and tasted by millions.
[00:10:07.880 --> 00:10:08.440] Millions.
[00:10:08.440 --> 00:10:10.920] That is multiple percentages of the UK population.
[00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:12.120] Millions of us have.
[00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:13.480] We've been to leisure centers.
[00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:19.080] Yeah, and it goes on to say there are other contaminants that have also been found in isolated areas.
[00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:21.560] Microplastics may be an emerging threat.
[00:10:21.560 --> 00:10:28.120] Their presence has gone beyond plastic bottles, food, and tap, and they are now being found in human blood.
[00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:30.440] And then it says lead piping still remains.
[00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:37.960] Lead piping is still present in an estimated 25% of homes, despite it being illegal to be installed in new homes.
[00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:41.400] It's also present in 100% of Cluedo sets.
[00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:45.760] So that is the pitch that we have here.
[00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:53.520] They go on to explain that their regular 2.0 kit consists of a high-grade activated carbon filter made from coconut shells.
[00:10:53.520 --> 00:11:05.920] So inside of that canister is a filter made of coconut shells, apparently, before going through what they will only describe as an ultra-filtration module, which apparently has pores no wider than 0.1 microns.
[00:11:05.920 --> 00:11:12.240] So anything that is larger than 0.1 micron will just get backed up by and caught in this filter.
[00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:18.320] That is only useful information if they also tell you how big the molecules they're filtering out are.
[00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:19.360] Yes, it is.
[00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:29.440] So they go on to say they will filter out 99.99% of microplastics, 99.99% of bacteria, 99.99% of parasites.
[00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:33.360] I'm looking at Alice in case at any point something sets off her microd a lot.
[00:11:33.680 --> 00:11:41.280] 99.99% of cryptosporidium, 99.99% of asbestos, 99.99% of E.
[00:11:41.280 --> 00:11:48.320] coli, 95.28% of chlorine, and 30 to 50% of lead.
[00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:51.520] I don't know the size of most of those things.
[00:11:51.520 --> 00:11:53.440] All I know is bacteria are pretty big.
[00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:54.960] You can see them under a microscope.
[00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:55.440] Yeah.
[00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:56.400] So I would expect.
[00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:59.760] I'm not good on what a microd is, to be honest, or what a tenth of a micron is.
[00:11:59.760 --> 00:12:07.840] I did try to look into the sizes of some of these, and I didn't find enough of a solid handle on it that I could put in for some good kind of context.
[00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:14.320] To be fair, if we were filtering stuff, particularly if we were filtering bacteria in the lab, we would use a 0.2 micron filter.
[00:12:14.880 --> 00:12:15.440] What's that?
[00:12:15.520 --> 00:12:20.640] I've got a feeling micron is 10 to the minus 6 of a of a meter, is it?
[00:12:20.640 --> 00:12:22.880] Yes, 10 to the minus 6th of a meter, a micron.
[00:12:22.880 --> 00:12:23.200] Yes.
[00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:26.800] So a millionth, a millionth of a meter, so a thousandth of a millimeter.
[00:12:26.800 --> 00:12:27.120] Yes.
[00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:27.760] Okay, there you go.
[00:12:27.760 --> 00:12:28.320] There you go.
[00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:28.720] Okay.
[00:12:28.880 --> 00:12:30.360] Doesn't it help you for the size of these other things.
[00:12:30.520 --> 00:12:32.280] We still have to look at the size of other shit.
[00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:34.280] I did try and do that, but it wasn't fully clear.
[00:12:34.520 --> 00:12:38.600] The one that got me there was asbestos, which seems to have come out of nowhere in this pitch.
[00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:41.000] Are they saying that our tap water's full of asbestos?
[00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:41.960] We will come back to asbestos.
[00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:43.880] Okay, we will come back to asbestos.
[00:12:43.880 --> 00:12:49.640] So it is true that in the UK we use chlorine as a disinfectant in the water supply to kill off bacteria, in fact.
[00:12:49.640 --> 00:12:56.200] But is it the case then that millions of UK tap water drinkers smell and taste chlorine in their drinking water routinely?
[00:12:56.200 --> 00:13:00.440] At least routinely enough to justify an expensive water filtration system?
[00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:16.200] Well, not according to the Drinking Water Inspectorate, which is a public body formed in 1990 as an arm's length body of the UK government to provide independent reassurance that public water supplies in England and Wales are safe and drinking water quality is acceptable to consumers.
[00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:17.400] That's the other DWI.
[00:13:17.400 --> 00:13:19.240] I've not heard of the DWI before.
[00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:22.840] I tend to be across a lot of regulators, but these were new ones to me.
[00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:24.600] It's the Department of the Women's Institute, right?
[00:13:24.760 --> 00:13:25.480] That's where I sorry.
[00:13:25.560 --> 00:13:26.200] That's what it is.
[00:13:26.680 --> 00:13:30.440] So the DWI audit water companies and then test drinking water.
[00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:37.000] And they've got powers of enforcement if any drinking water samples fail their tests because they're part of the government, essentially.
[00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:39.800] So they have kind of government enforcement kind of powers.
[00:13:39.800 --> 00:13:46.520] As an aside, the issue of water quality in the UK is a serious one and one that has been in the news a lot.
[00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:48.680] And so listeners might be thinking that's where this going.
[00:13:48.680 --> 00:13:59.080] But bear in mind, if you're thinking about the times that water companies have been fined pretty regularly for routinely dumping their sewage into the rivers and seas of the British Isles, that is a real issue.
[00:13:59.080 --> 00:13:59.720] That is a real issue.
[00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:00.280] It's a serious issue.
[00:14:00.280 --> 00:14:01.240] It's a massive issue.
[00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:02.600] But it's not getting into the tap water.
[00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:10.520] Well, this is it, because, as you might imagine, the water that we expel is far less closely policed than the water we are expected to ingest coming to us from tap water.
[00:14:10.760 --> 00:14:18.320] It is a problem if you're going to a beach in the UK, particularly if you're taking young children or other people who might be vulnerable immunologically.
[00:14:18.640 --> 00:14:24.560] You probably don't want to have them swimming in the sea if it's close to where sewage dumps have been happening.
[00:14:24.560 --> 00:14:31.760] Yeah, but the DWI has nothing to do with keeping excrement off our beaches, but they will get very involved in keeping the bad stuff out of our drinking water.
[00:14:31.760 --> 00:14:33.120] That's their kind of remit.
[00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:39.200] And as you might imagine, the DWI have got information on the chlorine levels in the drinking waters of England and Wales.
[00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:49.280] I say England and Wales not because Scotland and Northern Ireland are like a chlorine-strewn hellhole, they're under a different system because they're a devolved government, they've got their own governments, so they have their own system set up.
[00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:51.520] They're also a completely different kind of hellhole.
[00:14:51.760 --> 00:14:52.560] Very different.
[00:14:52.880 --> 00:14:54.960] Nothing to do with chlorine, maybe no chlorine at all.
[00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:55.520] Zero chlorine.
[00:14:55.680 --> 00:14:56.720] If anything, that's the problem.
[00:14:56.880 --> 00:14:59.920] No chlorine in Northern Ireland or Scotland.
[00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:03.200] So, DWI or all over chlorine levels.
[00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:06.880] They've even got a page dedicated to chlorine levels on their website, which I read.
[00:15:06.880 --> 00:15:11.760] There is even a six-minute episode of the DWI's podcast on tap.
[00:15:11.760 --> 00:15:12.640] They've got a podcast.
[00:15:12.880 --> 00:15:14.560] Oh, I see what they've done there.
[00:15:14.560 --> 00:15:15.200] That's good.
[00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:16.720] There's an episode all about chlorine.
[00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:19.120] There's only two episodes I could find.
[00:15:19.280 --> 00:15:21.120] One about lead and one about chlorine.
[00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:22.240] So I listened to on tap.
[00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:24.640] I listened to a podcast for the making of this podcast.
[00:15:24.640 --> 00:15:29.520] The host, Lydia, interviewed the DWI's principal inspector, Ashley Parker.
[00:15:31.920 --> 00:15:32.480] Who explained.
[00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:34.240] I love an industry podcast.
[00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:34.880] Oh, God, yeah.
[00:15:35.280 --> 00:15:36.000] It's so cute.
[00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:37.760] It's industry, but it's very much to the public.
[00:15:37.920 --> 00:15:39.680] It's like, we're looking after you.
[00:15:39.680 --> 00:15:40.400] Here's what we're doing.
[00:15:40.400 --> 00:15:40.960] It's all right.
[00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:42.080] Don't worry about the chlorine.
[00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:42.800] Here's what it is.
[00:15:42.800 --> 00:15:45.280] And they were literally saying, you know, chlorine levels allowed in our drinking water.
[00:15:45.280 --> 00:15:52.240] It's quite safe that the level in chlorine and tap water in England and Wales is far lower than other countries, like the US, for example.
[00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:53.920] Where it's called on faucet?
[00:15:53.920 --> 00:15:55.360] It is called on faucet.
[00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:56.480] And the pun doesn't work.
[00:15:56.520 --> 00:15:58.080] Does would that work as a pun?
[00:15:58.160 --> 00:16:00.360] They don't have on tap, having something on tap.
[00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:01.320] Would America say on tap?
[00:16:01.560 --> 00:16:01.960] I don't know.
[00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:02.760] They might still use the phrase on tap.
[00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:08.920] Oh, you still have like a tap for they would disambiguate between taps and faucets.
[00:16:08.920 --> 00:16:12.520] Faucets would be water, and tap would be like a keg tap or something like that.
[00:16:12.520 --> 00:16:13.480] I reckon.
[00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:25.480] Anyway, they go on to explain that our tap water typically contains around 0.5 milligrams or less per litre, no more than one milligram, which is well below the WHO stated safety levels of five milligrams per litre.
[00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:27.960] So like the chlorine levels in our water, safe.
[00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:28.600] Well safe.
[00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:33.480] Well and truly safe by maybe an order of magnitude below the safe levels.
[00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:38.040] Which you can tell because we're not falling over ourselves with dead children in swimming baths.
[00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:38.600] Right.
[00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:41.480] You know, every time someone swallows a mouthful of water.
[00:16:44.760 --> 00:16:48.680] It's already got to quite high levels, but not high enough to cause harm.
[00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:51.800] But it's, yeah, still people aren't dropping dead of it, right?
[00:16:51.800 --> 00:16:53.240] Every time they go to the swimming pool.
[00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:53.880] Exactly.
[00:16:53.880 --> 00:17:00.920] Now, people might notice occasionally there's a slight taste of chlorine in their drinking water now and then, but that's mostly going to be due to maintenance works on the pipes.
[00:17:00.920 --> 00:17:09.800] And that might mean an extra bit of chlorine gets out and doesn't get filtered through before it gets to you because it all has to, there's chlorine in the pipes in the sort of the general water works.
[00:17:10.040 --> 00:17:15.640] You usually get a text message from United Utilities saying we're doing some work in your area and you might just want to clear the taps.
[00:17:16.120 --> 00:17:20.760] Because it'll be chlorine or it'd be sediment, it might be brown for some reason, but it's just because we've done a bit of work.
[00:17:20.760 --> 00:17:22.840] There's a bit of disrupted sort of run off in the tap.
[00:17:22.840 --> 00:17:23.480] Just get out.
[00:17:23.560 --> 00:17:26.120] It won't be harmful, but just it might taste a bit funny.
[00:17:26.120 --> 00:17:37.000] So that the DWI even point out that if you do notice a new taste of chlorine or a very strong taste of chlorine on your tap water, you should contact the water company immediately because it might be a sign that something's wrong.
[00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:42.280] And I suppose in that situation, using an expensive filter might delay the water company finding out about that.
[00:17:42.280 --> 00:17:43.720] So maybe it's a bad thing.
[00:17:43.800 --> 00:17:47.360] That's unlikely to be too serious an issue because someone else is going to notice it.
[00:17:47.360 --> 00:17:49.200] And also, as I say, the chlorine levels are safe.
[00:17:44.840 --> 00:17:51.040] We'd have to go very high for it to be unsafe.
[00:17:51.360 --> 00:17:55.600] And also, the DWI are doing water sampling often to check for this kind of stuff.
[00:17:55.600 --> 00:17:58.000] So that's going to, so it's not the worst thing in the world if you've got a filter.
[00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:00.800] It's not going to cause harm to people if you've got a filter in those circumstances.
[00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:10.320] And it's true that, like, tap water does taste different across the country based on how hard or soft it is and what kind of minerals are in your region's tap water.
[00:18:10.320 --> 00:18:16.640] So you can have different slight different tastes to water, which some people find unpalatable and choose to filter their water.
[00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:20.720] It's not unsafe, but if you don't like the taste of your tap water, you might filter it.
[00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:24.240] You might filter it before you put it in your kettle if you don't want to get like lime scale.
[00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:28.400] If you're in a very heavy hard water area, yeah, and we'll come back to minerals and water in a bit as well.
[00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:35.520] But yeah, in that instance, for those kind of instances, or if you're noticing a slight taste, perhaps a water filter isn't a terrible idea.
[00:18:35.520 --> 00:18:45.040] It's up to you whether or not you think the cost of having a water filter in your pipes is worth the benefit of removing whatever taste you think you're finding in there.
[00:18:45.040 --> 00:18:48.960] And obviously, like there are some additives to water that are good for us.
[00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:50.160] We're going to come back to those.
[00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:51.440] I promise we're coming back to those.
[00:18:51.760 --> 00:18:54.800] So, like, there's a cost benefit.
[00:18:55.120 --> 00:18:56.080] Just keep that pin.
[00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:56.880] Keep that pin.
[00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:02.000] I will come back to that much, much later because that'll be a claim that I want to come back to of theirs in relation to that.
[00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:06.960] Still, I'm highly suspicious of the rest of that list of things that Water 2 claim to filter on.
[00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:14.480] 99.99% of bacteria, 99.99% of parasites, 99.99% of Cryptosporidium, 99.99% of E.
[00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:15.120] coli.
[00:19:15.120 --> 00:19:25.120] I'm suspicious of that because it's suggesting to the reader that your drinking water is otherwise filled or plagued with the presence of bacteria, parasites, cryptosporidium, and E.
[00:19:25.120 --> 00:19:25.840] coli.
[00:19:25.840 --> 00:19:27.360] Which is just demonstrably not.
[00:19:27.360 --> 00:19:27.680] It's not.
[00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:28.080] It's not.
[00:19:28.080 --> 00:19:33.800] Here in the UK, where the water 2 product is being sold primarily in the UK, it's a UK-based product.
[00:19:33.800 --> 00:19:34.680] That is not the case.
[00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:47.240] Again, according to the DWI, this is a quote from them: water companies must assess the risk of cryptosporidium in its water sources and design and continuously operate a water treatment process to remove the parasite or render it inactive.
[00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:52.680] This is a regulatory requirement, and failure to comply is an offense.
[00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:58.040] So, this is me again: if there's cryptosporidium in your tap water, that's a matter for the authorities.
[00:19:58.040 --> 00:20:00.920] It's not a reason to buy an expensive water filter.
[00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:04.040] Similarly, our drinking water by regulation has to be free of E.
[00:20:04.040 --> 00:20:04.920] coli.
[00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:08.040] And when it gets detected, the water companies have to remove it.
[00:20:08.040 --> 00:20:11.000] You don't just like they don't expect the consumer to filter it out.
[00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:14.440] When it comes to bacteria, that's what the chlorine was for.
[00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:20.120] The chlorine that you're saying you can taste so much in the water, the chlorine's there to kill the bacteria.
[00:20:20.120 --> 00:20:24.360] So the chlorine is there in order to get rid of the bacteria before it makes it to your tap.
[00:20:24.360 --> 00:20:34.680] So the good news is that in each of the last three years of available results, 99.98% of samples tested passed the test for absence of microbiology, so these types of things.
[00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:40.120] 99.96% of the DWI's samples had an absence of unwanted chemicals.
[00:20:40.120 --> 00:20:46.600] So that's the other thing that water talk about, like PFAs and other types of chemicals, wasn't in the water in three years of samples.
[00:20:46.600 --> 00:20:50.040] 100% of all samples were free of traces of pesticide.
[00:20:50.040 --> 00:20:51.720] So water quality is good.
[00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:52.920] It's well maintained.
[00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:54.760] Certainly the drinking water at least.
[00:20:54.760 --> 00:21:03.560] In 2020, for example, out of 134,730 samples taken, all but 11 found no trace of E.
[00:21:03.560 --> 00:21:04.680] coli, which means they found E.
[00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:08.760] coli 11 times and took action to make sure that wasn't happening, to stop it immediately.
[00:21:08.760 --> 00:21:11.720] It wasn't a case of just let it get to the filter at that point.
[00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:19.920] Equally, when it comes to other measures, 99.6% of samples met the standards for levels of lead, so they weren't over the too much lead at a level.
[00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:27.040] 99.83% met the standard for iron, 99.86% met standards for taste, which means they can't have tasted of chlorine.
[00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:41.280] 99.86% of samples, which suggests that millions of people are experiencing chlorine taste in their drinking water, can't be true because 99.86% of samples were fine for taste.
[00:21:41.280 --> 00:21:43.360] And there isn't the math that doesn't work out.
[00:21:43.360 --> 00:21:46.320] They'd need a billion people in the UK for that to work out otherwise.
[00:21:46.320 --> 00:21:52.160] And that's what, like, one of my worries about what you're talking about here is that it's talking about people being able to taste chlorine in the water.
[00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:56.720] But I think if you go, well, I've never been able to taste chlorine in my water, but I can't.
[00:21:56.720 --> 00:22:08.640] Sometimes my water just tastes differently, then that's making people think, oh, it must be the chlorine and having a strong reaction to stuff like that, when in actual fact, it might be minerals in that area, hard water, soft water, etc.
[00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:17.200] And it's completely normal and might be something you choose to do something about preference-wise, but not something that you choose to do something about like for safety reasons.
[00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:18.480] Yeah, completely so.
[00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:26.560] So, yeah, we have very clean, very safe drinking water here in England and Wales, and doubtlessly for Scotland and Northern Ireland, although I didn't check for them.
[00:22:26.560 --> 00:22:30.320] Scottish and Irish skeptic go off and check yourself, but I'm sure it's fine.
[00:22:30.320 --> 00:22:37.760] On the subject of lead, it's therefore not a massive reassurance that Water 2 claims to remove 30 to 50% of lead levels.
[00:22:37.760 --> 00:22:40.480] That feels not high enough to be making a claim on.
[00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:49.120] If you're getting lead in your tap water, the solution isn't to filter, it's to have your pipes looked at because you've got lead in your tap water and half as much lead isn't good.
[00:22:49.120 --> 00:22:52.480] Le yeah, lead is lead is a bad thing to have in your water.
[00:22:52.800 --> 00:22:54.560] If that's a risk, you need to be doing something about it.
[00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:55.200] It's fine.
[00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:57.760] I get rid of about half of the lead in my water.
[00:22:57.760 --> 00:22:58.880] It's absolutely fine.
[00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:01.240] I'm not angry about it at all.
[00:22:59.760 --> 00:23:06.120] That's one of the effects of lead buildup in the brain is increased anger.
[00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:07.640] That was what that was.
[00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:12.440] Anyway, so yeah, I find the claims for water too to be pretty over the top and very alarmist.
[00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:24.680] Like, sure, if you're routinely tasting chlorine in your tap water because you happen to be very, very sensitive to the incredibly low levels that are safely present, a water filter might make sense for you, or you can chill your water and that kind of removes some of the taste as well.
[00:23:24.680 --> 00:23:37.480] But to sell these filters as a way of protecting you from parasites and bacteria, things that you're already by law protected from in drinking water, that's just a case of scaremongering you into splashing out money on protective products you don't need.
[00:23:37.800 --> 00:23:52.680] They talk, as you reference there, Mike, of removing 99.99% of asbestos from drinking water, which immediately makes the reader think there's an abundance of asbestos in my drinking water and therefore it must pose a massive threat to my health.
[00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:53.560] Now I looked this up.
[00:23:53.560 --> 00:23:58.760] It is true, apparently, that there is some asbestos fibers in drinking water, just commonly.
[00:23:58.760 --> 00:24:10.120] According to the WHO, and this is unhelpful, they say, quote, the concentration of which of asbestos varies between non-detectable and 1 million fibers per litre.
[00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:12.040] That is the level they talk about.
[00:24:12.280 --> 00:24:16.920] Now, a million fibers per liter sounds quite a lot because that is a thousand fibers per milliliter.
[00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:17.160] Yeah.
[00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:21.880] And they're talking about fibers that are up to a micron in length.
[00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:22.360] Right.
[00:24:22.360 --> 00:24:24.120] Which is still tiny, right?
[00:24:24.120 --> 00:24:25.640] It's still not a lot there.
[00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:35.640] But I'm going to reassure you more from here because we also know there's no evidence of harm for that level of asbestos in the water between non-detectable and a million fibers per litre.
[00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:41.480] I mean, part of the reason we know that is we aren't all dying of asbestos-related cancers from drinking water.
[00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:45.840] And this will have been the case for 50 years, the amount of asbestos we're in in the water.
[00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:52.000] So, the thing is, asbestos is harmful when inhaled because of the effects on the interior of the lungs.
[00:24:52.320 --> 00:25:00.960] That doesn't then automatically mean that it's harmful when ingested in minute and highly concentrated amounts, and then meets, for example, the acids in your stomach and things.
[00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:14.080] And it's that's exactly why having horse hair in your walls that might have asbestos in it is not an immediate risk, it's the removal of that because it's aerosolizing it.
[00:25:14.080 --> 00:25:27.600] Yeah, so according to the WHO's report, quote: Although well studied, there has been little convincing evidence of the carcinogenicity of ingested asbestos in epidemiological studies of populations with drinking water supplies containing high concentrations of asbestos.
[00:25:27.600 --> 00:25:35.520] Moreover, in extensive studies in lab species, asbestos has not consistently increased the incidence of tumors of the gastrointestinal tract.
[00:25:35.520 --> 00:25:40.640] There is therefore no consistent evidence that ingested asbestos is hazardous to health.
[00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:46.880] And thus, it was concluded there was no need to establish a health-based guideline value for asbestos in drinking water.
[00:25:47.040 --> 00:25:55.360] That's why we don't know how much there is in drinking water, because when they've studied it, they found there isn't a level that's likely to find it in water that could be causing harm.
[00:25:55.360 --> 00:26:02.400] So, we don't need to say don't have this amount of asbestos in any more than we have it for something else incredibly dangerous, plutonium, arsenic, things like that.
[00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:05.440] It's not a bog standard thing to check for.
[00:26:05.760 --> 00:26:18.800] On their website, Water 2 kind of gloss over this with a bit of a hand wave, gloss over all of this with a bit of a hand wave, because what they say is we are always told the UK has amazing water, but what about the times where it isn't true?
[00:26:18.800 --> 00:26:22.400] Over 100,000 horms now opt for a Water 2 filter.
[00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:23.920] That's what they say.
[00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:31.880] But you don't have evidence that those 100,000 horms opted to buy your water filter because their water wasn't amazing.
[00:26:31.880 --> 00:26:34.600] Because they were some of the times that the water wasn't amazing.
[00:26:29.520 --> 00:26:39.880] Maybe it's because, for example, they saw an ad from you telling them that without a water filter, all of that E.
[00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:42.200] coli and asbestos is going to get through and kill them.
[00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:42.600] Yeah.
[00:26:42.600 --> 00:26:46.120] Maybe that's why maybe they're falling for your marketing here.
[00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:51.720] Also, they say, like, say, they say on their product page that they've sold more than 400 today alone.
[00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:54.280] And they said that yesterday and the other day that I checked.
[00:26:54.280 --> 00:27:00.680] But at that rate of selling more than 400 a day, those 100,000 homes, that's 250 days.
[00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:01.720] That's not a year.
[00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:05.160] They've been selling since 2020 or 2023, I think, in fact.
[00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:07.320] So yeah, I don't buy the numbers here at all.
[00:27:07.320 --> 00:27:08.280] Something's not adding up.
[00:27:08.520 --> 00:27:17.160] Meanwhile, on the website, they've got a graphic of the UK on their home page or the website with the text: We're always told how great our water is, but here are cases where it's not.
[00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:26.920] While the UK has a relatively high sample pass rate, there are still issues up and down the country relating to bacteria, burst pipes, microplastics, and more.
[00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:28.440] Just look at your area.
[00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:29.560] Relatively high.
[00:27:29.560 --> 00:27:30.440] Relatively high.
[00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:35.080] Wasn't it 99.38 or something like that, which is absolutely high?
[00:27:35.080 --> 00:27:36.760] Yeah, for some, it was 99.99.
[00:27:36.760 --> 00:27:38.120] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:27:38.120 --> 00:27:44.840] And then you've got this little map, and it's got little plus signs where you can click on to learn what's been happening in your area of shame.
[00:27:44.840 --> 00:27:50.280] And it brings up articles, sometimes articles from the DWI, in fact, about issues with tap water supply.
[00:27:50.280 --> 00:28:03.320] That includes, for example, a 2023 incident where Scottish Water customers' water was contaminated for several days by a fuel leak, leading customers to be given bottled water by Scottish Water while the issue was being resolved.
[00:28:03.320 --> 00:28:10.600] So, are they suggesting that their filter could filter out all of the fuel oil from a pumping station's backup generator?
[00:28:10.600 --> 00:28:13.880] Because I don't know that that's what they're claiming to be able to filter out.
[00:28:13.880 --> 00:28:15.200] I'm not going to, they haven't said that.
[00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:16.880] That's the kind of stuff they could filter out.
[00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:19.680] Was that the time when people were setting fire to their taps?
[00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:22.080] Was that Fent Michigan stuff?
[00:28:14.840 --> 00:28:22.240] I think.
[00:28:22.320 --> 00:28:23.680] I don't know if it was one in Scotland.
[00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:25.760] No, there was a thing in the UK.
[00:28:26.080 --> 00:28:27.200] It wasn't recently.
[00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:28.720] It was maybe five, six years ago.
[00:28:29.120 --> 00:28:29.680] It might have been that.
[00:28:29.840 --> 00:28:30.400] It might have been that.
[00:28:31.120 --> 00:28:32.160] That was 2023.
[00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:36.880] So, you know, possibly where people were setting fire to that, and I had a little flame on the bottom of the tap.
[00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:38.320] And they go, what are they putting in our water?
[00:28:38.320 --> 00:28:39.600] Because, look, there's fire.
[00:28:39.600 --> 00:28:41.120] I can set fire to the water.
[00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:42.400] It's like, you can't, though, can you?
[00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:43.920] It's not the water that's burning.
[00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:47.280] Yeah, it's the fucking whatever else is in the pipe.
[00:28:47.280 --> 00:28:52.720] A pumping station that run an electric backup generator leaks on the oil into the water supply.
[00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:53.360] Very bad thing.
[00:28:53.360 --> 00:28:54.560] People noticed it.
[00:28:54.560 --> 00:28:57.600] Scottish water got on it, gave everybody bottled water while they fixed it.
[00:28:57.600 --> 00:28:59.360] You didn't need a filter to get rid of it.
[00:28:59.360 --> 00:29:00.400] And it's not an issue.
[00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:02.560] That's not a selling point for a filter to me.
[00:29:02.560 --> 00:29:11.760] What about the story in 2022 that they cite from Rutland, or another story from 2023 from Bristol, where homes were left completely without water due to a broken pipe?
[00:29:12.080 --> 00:29:14.880] What the fuck's that gonna do to your filter?
[00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:16.480] Your filter doesn't fix that.
[00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:16.960] No, it doesn't.
[00:29:17.520 --> 00:29:19.120] Filter or non-existent water.
[00:29:19.280 --> 00:29:21.920] Yeah, having a water filter on your mainline wouldn't have helped with that.
[00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:23.760] This isn't evidence towards buying your pipe.
[00:29:23.760 --> 00:29:26.320] This is just you saying, oh, water problems in it.
[00:29:26.320 --> 00:29:27.520] Better buy our product.
[00:29:27.520 --> 00:29:28.800] But this would have not helped.
[00:29:28.800 --> 00:29:31.920] This is just opportunism on top of scaremongering.
[00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:36.000] They also say, Water 2 will give you the best tasting water guaranteed.
[00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:42.960] Try Water 2, and if you don't love it, though, we promise you will, you can return your filter for a full refund within 100 days.
[00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:46.960] And I love this as marketing, because it's literally, try our product.
[00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:49.760] If you like it, we'll add you to our list of happy customers.
[00:29:49.760 --> 00:29:55.040] And if you don't, we'll forget you ever existed and pretend to people that every one of our customers is happy.
[00:29:55.040 --> 00:29:59.200] It's you're sampling bias as a marketing ploy, essentially.
[00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:05.640] And obviously, I've not bought the product, so I haven't tried to engage the 100-day refund, so I have no idea what steps are involved in it and how easy that is.
[00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:07.560] I just can't comment on that at all.
[00:30:07.560 --> 00:30:14.680] As you might expect from a pro from a company like this, they've got a page called The Science, where you'd expect them to explain the science of it all.
[00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:26.600] Instead of that, what we get is marketing claims like more than 95% of chlorine filtered and third-party tested in multiple labs, and we are CE certified within the UK.
[00:30:26.600 --> 00:30:29.960] So they are actively safe themselves, is all that's saying.
[00:30:30.280 --> 00:30:33.000] They link to a peer-reviewed study on the page.
[00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:37.960] It's a study on why pry halomethanes might be linked to bladder cancer.
[00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:39.800] It says nothing about their filters being effective.
[00:30:39.800 --> 00:30:42.120] It doesn't mention filters at all.
[00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:44.920] It's just a some chemicals cause cancer.
[00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:45.480] Yeah.
[00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:47.000] That's the science of their filters.
[00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:49.880] We don't even know if their filter will screen those chemicals out.
[00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:50.680] They do claim it.
[00:30:51.080 --> 00:30:53.160] It was in the 60%, something like that.
[00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:56.440] But I don't know how common those chemicals even are in what.
[00:30:56.440 --> 00:31:04.760] I mean, given that the DWI said their pass rate for chemicals was 99.6 or 96% or something kind of area.
[00:31:04.760 --> 00:31:07.160] So I'm saying they a lot here when it comes to water 2.
[00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:09.720] So maybe we need to talk about who water 2 are.
[00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:19.640] So Water 2 was founded in 2020 by Charles Robinson, says on their site, who dropped out of university to work with his professors to fix the UK's tap water crisis.
[00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:22.920] And today it's the fastest growing water filter brand in the world.
[00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:24.760] Tap water crisis?
[00:31:24.760 --> 00:31:28.440] As we've covered, the UK has excellent quality tap water.
[00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:29.400] There is no crisis.
[00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:31.560] That's needless scaremongering again.
[00:31:31.560 --> 00:31:34.920] Also, when Charles talks about university, he's talking about UCL in London.
[00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:40.920] Though, according to a press release on UCL's website, he is the alumnus of their philosophy department.
[00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:46.160] So, guy with a philosophy degree reinvents tap water filtering, essentially.
[00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:50.080] And he said he was motivated to do this after spotting a gap in the market for a new brand.
[00:31:50.320 --> 00:31:55.280] He said, Quote, I started thinking about water filters in 2020, and I realized something.
[00:31:55.280 --> 00:31:56.800] It's a really blurred category.
[00:31:56.800 --> 00:32:00.240] I could only name one brand, but how many water brands could you think of?
[00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:05.840] So he was saying, like, there's loads of brands of drinking water, only one brand of filter gap in the market there.
[00:32:05.840 --> 00:32:08.640] So he wasn't doing this because he felt like he could improve the technology.
[00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:09.920] He just recognized there's an opportunity.
[00:32:11.360 --> 00:32:12.640] So he means Brita, right?
[00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:13.520] He means Brita.
[00:32:13.520 --> 00:32:15.120] That is the only water filter.
[00:32:15.280 --> 00:32:18.960] Yeah, he just didn't want to name his main rival in his press release about his product.
[00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:19.520] Yeah.
[00:32:19.520 --> 00:32:23.360] So this is actually Robinson's second business that he set up since leaving UCL.
[00:32:23.360 --> 00:32:32.640] His first business was called Gel Card, a company that was set up in April 2020 to offer, quote, the premium hand sanitizer experience.
[00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:33.040] Yeah.
[00:32:33.040 --> 00:32:34.560] In April 2020.
[00:32:34.560 --> 00:32:37.600] Yeah, I'm tired of slumming it with cheap hand sanitizer.
[00:32:37.600 --> 00:32:39.360] Yeah, one month into a pandemic.
[00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:47.760] It's apparently, it was apparently, quote, dedicated to hygiene innovation through brand collaboration and user experience obsession.
[00:32:47.760 --> 00:32:53.360] What it did was it used celebrity partnerships and endorsements to create brands that they could sell as premium hand sanitizer brands.
[00:32:53.360 --> 00:32:55.040] Kim Kardashian was one of their partners.
[00:32:55.040 --> 00:33:00.320] There was an article praising the fact that if you can get Kim Kardashian to pose with hand sanitizer, you must be onto something.
[00:33:00.320 --> 00:33:08.480] They sell, or possibly used to sell, I don't know if they still do, single-dose hand sanitizer in credit card-sized disposable pouches.
[00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:10.160] You'll have seen products like it.
[00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:19.840] Instead of having to carry a bottle of a small bottle of hand sanitizer around, you just open a little credit card or like condom sachet of hand sanitizer in a pouch, and then you put it on, then you throw that pouch away.
[00:33:19.840 --> 00:33:26.240] So, apparently, just a few years ago, entrepreneur Charles cared a little less about microplastics when they weren't caught in his marketing strategy.
[00:33:26.320 --> 00:33:27.680] That's exactly what I was thinking.
[00:33:28.560 --> 00:33:42.520] Speaking of his marketing strategy, a couple of other points of note on the website, on the homepage of Water2's website, quote: Bear Grylls, officially customer number 8,420, invested in Water 2 earlier this year.
[00:33:42.520 --> 00:33:48.440] The survival hero personally funded and co-led the development of Pod 2.0.
[00:33:48.440 --> 00:33:55.960] Regularly sitting in on product meetings and supporting growth, he's a hands-on co-owner, determined to change how the world drinks.
[00:33:55.960 --> 00:33:59.480] So, apparently, Bear Grylls is now the corner of this business.
[00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:01.000] He's very hands-on with it.
[00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:15.080] To show off how hands-on he is, he's pictured on the website holding a box of Water2 filter in his hands while pointing at it with his other hand, while inexplicably wearing a soaking wet white t-shirt that is transparently clinging to his liquid.
[00:34:15.080 --> 00:34:17.880] Like he's poured one of those filtered water all over him.
[00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:23.560] Like, oh, I've got it so pure, it's so pure, I can bathe in this in my white t-shirt.
[00:34:23.560 --> 00:34:32.200] This is also suggests, of course, that Charles considers TV survivalist Bear Grylls to be a good celebrity to partner with to sell his products.
[00:34:32.200 --> 00:34:35.640] This guy who can survive in the wild drinking non-clean water.
[00:34:35.640 --> 00:34:36.680] Yeah, I would disagree.
[00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:53.000] And it's not just because Bear Grylls is a prominent Christian activist who's the face of the Alpha Course, and not just because he's the guy who baptized his good friend and noted rapist Russell Brand in the Thames last year as part of Russell Brand's, I couldn't have raped a gov, I'm Christian now, conversion strategy, essentially.
[00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:53.720] Was that last year?
[00:34:53.720 --> 00:34:54.120] Was that?
[00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:55.400] I think that was 2024.
[00:34:55.400 --> 00:34:56.760] It might have been 2023.
[00:34:56.760 --> 00:35:01.400] I'm sure it was 2023 because we talked about it at the QED that year.
[00:35:01.560 --> 00:35:03.080] We didn't talk about it last year, did we?
[00:35:03.800 --> 00:35:04.280] Not sure.
[00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:04.680] Not sure.
[00:35:04.680 --> 00:35:08.280] I know we have an article about it at the time on The Skeptic, but yeah, I didn't check that.
[00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:10.200] In my head, it was last year, but it could have been slightly longer.
[00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:13.160] But anyway, he did a very convenient conversion.
[00:35:13.160 --> 00:35:18.080] All those are good reasons to dislike Bear Grylls, but it's not about his connection to this product.
[00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:21.040] But as you say, Alice, he's known for being a TV survivalist.
[00:35:21.200 --> 00:35:25.920] He made his living trying to, at least on television, survive in extreme places.
[00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:30.640] Tom Whipple, who I do like of The Times, he's a nice chap, wrote an excellent article about this.
[00:35:30.640 --> 00:35:36.960] He pointed out, his article starts by saying, when once in the desert, Bear Grylls cut open a camel and drank from its rumen.
[00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:41.280] When on a beach, he advised slurping from the eyes of a parrotfish to stay hydrated.
[00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:44.960] When he was at a loss, he drank a bottle of his own urine.
[00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:50.160] So he's pointing this out while then saying about Bear Grylls says that UK's tap water is disgusting.
[00:35:50.160 --> 00:35:56.960] I think it was even titled Bear Grylls, Urine Drinker Bear Grylls criticises UK Tapwater or something like that.
[00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:57.680] It was lovely.
[00:35:57.680 --> 00:36:02.560] Bear Grylls is not a good advert for you must drink heavily filtered drinking water or else it's bad for you.
[00:36:02.560 --> 00:36:06.240] Quoting, this is a direct quote from Tom Whipple's article.
[00:36:06.240 --> 00:36:22.480] Grylls, who once sated his thirst by squeezing the juice out of elephant dung and slurping it down, made the comments about UK tap water while working with Water 2, a UK company that sells £129 filters that have previously got itself in hot water after being sanctioned by the Advertising Standards Authority.
[00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:23.520] Beautiful paragraph.
[00:36:23.520 --> 00:36:24.720] Perfect paragraph.
[00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:28.560] When given the press release, Bear Grylls criticizes UK Tapwater.
[00:36:28.560 --> 00:36:30.160] That is how to write that press release.
[00:36:31.200 --> 00:36:31.840] Beautiful.
[00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:38.000] Because, yeah, I forgot to mention the marketing for Water 2 has been decidedly dodgy in other ways than just their website in the past.
[00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:45.440] In May 2024, they sent an email out to their entire marketing list with the subject line, update, it's gotten worse.
[00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:48.400] Which sort of sounds like the title of one of Russell Brand's videos, to be fair.
[00:36:49.200 --> 00:36:54.320] The body of the email read: quote: A hundred people have fallen ill in Devon now.
[00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:56.560] We can't stand by and watch this happen.
[00:36:56.560 --> 00:36:59.440] We've made Water 2 just 99 pounds today.
[00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:02.440] Use code urgent at checkout.
[00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:04.360] Every home in the UK needs a water filter.
[00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:10.760] We've built a 30,000-plus strong community of people brave enough to oppose UK tap water.
[00:37:11.080 --> 00:37:13.400] It's how you bring a community together, though, isn't it?
[00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:15.880] It's just, oh, I'm fucking against tap water.
[00:37:16.200 --> 00:37:17.240] I just hate it.
[00:37:17.240 --> 00:37:17.720] I hate it.
[00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:19.880] I'm against it and everything it stands for.
[00:37:20.360 --> 00:37:23.880] There's a raw commer in this next sentence, which is what tripped me up.
[00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:29.320] But they say, this event, is it the day where everyone understands that we were right all along?
[00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:31.640] UK tap water is broken.
[00:37:31.640 --> 00:37:34.120] Please protect yourself with a filter.
[00:37:34.120 --> 00:37:36.440] Again, just 99 pounds with the code urgent.
[00:37:36.440 --> 00:37:39.640] Stay safe and please drink filtered water.
[00:37:39.640 --> 00:37:55.160] So the ASA concluded that the urgent tone and the alarmist language conveyed the impression that drinking unfiltered tap water was a health risk, which they felt was likely to cause fear and that it exaggerated the health risks of UK drinking water and exploited people's fear that tap water across the UK was unsafe to drink.
[00:37:55.160 --> 00:37:56.520] And they said, do not do that again.
[00:37:56.520 --> 00:37:58.280] And I agree, that's bullshit.
[00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:03.240] It's not the only ad of theirs that wound them in a bit of hot water, filtered or otherwise.
[00:38:03.240 --> 00:38:09.160] I mentioned in a recent show that Facebook have a feature where you can check the past ads that have ran for a page.
[00:38:09.160 --> 00:38:11.160] And so I browsed the previous ads for Water Do.
[00:38:11.160 --> 00:38:19.000] I noticed one of them was marked with a disclaimer that it had been removed by Facebook's ad checkers because it was in breach of their advertising policies.
[00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:22.360] I thought, given Facebook's advertising policies, I better look at that one.
[00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:25.160] I thought that any old shite-through.
[00:38:25.560 --> 00:38:26.520] So the ad was from March 2020.
[00:38:26.520 --> 00:38:27.080] That's not true.
[00:38:27.080 --> 00:38:28.680] We get our stuff taken down all the time.
[00:38:28.680 --> 00:38:29.560] Yeah, that is true.
[00:38:29.560 --> 00:38:31.320] The ad was from March 2024.
[00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:33.800] It was titled, A Shocking Truth.
[00:38:33.800 --> 00:38:34.280] Okay.
[00:38:34.280 --> 00:38:38.360] The ad featured the text: quote, UK tap water is broken.
[00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:41.320] Then a red X, Forever Chemicals, Red X.
[00:38:41.320 --> 00:38:43.480] Microplastics, Red X.
[00:38:43.480 --> 00:38:50.000] Lead, Red X, Chlorine, Red X, Hormones, all swimming around in our water.
[00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:52.720] Them hormones, the hormones are swimming in our water.
[00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:54.800] But that was just the text.
[00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:58.000] But the ad had a video with it, and it was a guy in a baseball cap.
[00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:00.160] And I wanted to see what he had to say, so I clicked it.
[00:39:00.160 --> 00:39:05.520] And it opened with him saying, you know how in the last couple of weeks, everyone's been talking about this photo?
[00:39:05.520 --> 00:39:06.720] And he pointed a photo.
[00:39:06.720 --> 00:39:14.080] And the photo he points at was the photo released by Kate Middleton of her and her kids that everyone said was badly photoshopped and proved that she was dead.
[00:39:14.080 --> 00:39:16.320] Because that's what was happening in March 2024.
[00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:18.240] So they jumped on that.
[00:39:18.240 --> 00:39:19.600] That photo in this advert.
[00:39:19.600 --> 00:39:26.800] The guy said, everyone's been talking about this photo and about how maybe we can't trust the royal family and they've been covering up different health issues.
[00:39:26.800 --> 00:39:32.320] It got me thinking, do the royal family drink the same tap water that we're told is the best in the world?
[00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:34.080] So I thought, let me do some research.
[00:39:34.080 --> 00:39:37.040] And the results I found are actually shocking.
[00:39:37.040 --> 00:39:40.640] And then he points to a Telegraph article about when Obama visited the UK.
[00:39:40.640 --> 00:39:42.640] He was told not to drink London tap water.
[00:39:42.640 --> 00:39:45.200] His special advisors didn't want to risk London tap water.
[00:39:45.200 --> 00:39:49.520] And then there's another news article about how the Queen preferred bottled water to tap water.
[00:39:49.520 --> 00:39:56.000] And he concludes, maybe we shouldn't drink tap water if the billionaires and the royal family and the powerful people won't do it.
[00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:57.760] Maybe they know something we don't.
[00:39:57.760 --> 00:39:59.680] So you should buy a water filter.
[00:39:59.680 --> 00:40:07.280] Now you could go for bottled water, expensive, or you can go for like a really super expensive water filter, like a quokka or something, expensive.
[00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:09.440] But I would recommend a water 2.
[00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:15.280] And then he goes on, and it's clearly just one of those like adverts where you paid someone to give to deliver this kind of thing.
[00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:18.160] That's what passes for quality marketing from Water 2.
[00:40:18.160 --> 00:40:19.360] Back to their website for a moment.
[00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:28.080] They claim, note that Pod, the Pod 2.0, is about balancing the preservation of good minerals with the filtration of contaminants.
[00:40:28.080 --> 00:40:32.040] Because, as you mentioned, Alice, sometimes the stuff in the water is good for you.
[00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:34.040] And I'm pretty skeptical of this claim.
[00:40:34.280 --> 00:40:38.680] Partly because how is your water filter meant to know the good ones from the bad ones?
[00:40:38.680 --> 00:40:42.280] It's just a micron with like a 0.1 micron width across.
[00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:46.120] Yeah, it only works if the good things are really, really small and the bad things are really, really big.
[00:40:46.120 --> 00:40:47.800] Yeah, and I don't think that's not how that works.
[00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:53.400] Your filter can't, like, it's not like a bouncer or a traffic light where it's like, sorry, can I check your papers?
[00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:54.200] Right, you're getting through.
[00:40:54.200 --> 00:40:55.080] That's not how that works.
[00:40:55.320 --> 00:40:57.720] If it's small enough, it's going to get through, desirable or not.
[00:40:57.720 --> 00:41:07.480] But more to the point, when you look, if you Google what counts as beneficial minerals in water, I mean, what would you say would come up if you looked at what minerals are beneficial in drinking water?
[00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:08.760] Fluoride, calcium.
[00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:10.680] Yeah, fluoride's number one, isn't it?
[00:41:10.680 --> 00:41:13.560] But they've just released a product to filter fluoride out.
[00:41:13.880 --> 00:41:21.960] So we make sure that we have a balance of the good minerals with the bad minerals, and then we sell you a product to remove some of those good minerals, rather.
[00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:28.360] So, yeah, as far as I can tell, they started advertising the fluoride filter in February of this year.
[00:41:28.360 --> 00:41:34.280] So, after the change of administration in America, and after the Make America, America Healthy Again movement, and RFK Jr.
[00:41:34.440 --> 00:41:37.960] and the talk of removing fluoride in public water, all of that.
[00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:43.080] I think at the end of March, in fact, Utah became the first state to ban fluoride from drinking water.
[00:41:43.080 --> 00:41:45.800] So, around that time, they're coming out with this product.
[00:41:45.800 --> 00:41:53.160] And it feels to me at least a little bit like Water2 have seen the way that particular wind is blowing and they've jumped on it as a marketing trend.
[00:41:53.160 --> 00:42:02.200] Just like they jumped on the pandemic to sell hand sanitizer with a glamorous edge, just as they jumped on the water crisis and any headlines they could to sell their water filter.
[00:42:02.200 --> 00:42:08.360] They're just putting out a product this time, in my opinion, that yet again is designed to capitalize on fear in spite of the evidence.
[00:42:08.360 --> 00:42:12.840] In this case, they're going even further than the people calling to stop adding fluoride to water.
[00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:19.680] They're going to actively remove fluoride from drinking water, even where it's naturally occurring, as it is in some parts of the UK.
[00:42:19.680 --> 00:42:22.080] I don't know how effective the water 2 filters are.
[00:42:22.080 --> 00:42:32.960] I've no reason to think they don't filter water well, though, with all the caveats of whether there's even anything left, anything serious left to filter out once the water companies and the DUI have done their job.
[00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:39.760] But it seems pretty clear to me that the sales tactic range from questionable partnerships with celebrity endorsements to outright scaremongering.
[00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:43.760] Tap water in the UK is one of the cleanest and safest on the planet.
[00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:48.400] According to the Environmental Performance Index, it scores 97 out of a possible 100.
[00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:54.560] It's behind only Italy, America, Singapore, Canada, Germany, Switzerland, Norway, and Sweden.
[00:42:54.560 --> 00:43:07.520] Meanwhile, Water2 are trawling for news of water supply issues to scare you into getting a filter and then running ads with conspiracy videos about the royal family and powerful billionaires knowing something about the tap water that you don't.
[00:43:07.520 --> 00:43:12.000] For me, it's pretty clear which of those claims carry the most water.
[00:43:16.160 --> 00:43:17.760] So it's my birthday recently.
[00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:18.400] Very recently.
[00:43:19.120 --> 00:43:21.040] I'm recording it is today.
[00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:25.920] It will be, it is your birthday today, and it will be your birthday for at least three of the next shows.
[00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:26.640] That's true as well.
[00:43:26.640 --> 00:43:29.360] So you can say happy birthday to you on every one of those shows.
[00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:33.600] You're like the queen in that you have multiple birthdays and know something about tap water.
[00:43:33.600 --> 00:43:34.880] Many, many birthdays.
[00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:38.640] But so for my birthday, we went off and we did an escape room.
[00:43:38.640 --> 00:43:39.120] Yes.
[00:43:39.120 --> 00:43:44.240] Which coincidentally, and it was largely a coincidence, all three of us ended up in the same escape room.
[00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:44.720] We did.
[00:43:45.520 --> 00:43:46.320] It was a coincidence.
[00:43:46.720 --> 00:43:47.360] It wasn't like it wasn't.
[00:43:47.520 --> 00:43:48.480] Because it was quite a big group of us.
[00:43:48.560 --> 00:43:49.440] We were still across a couple of years ago.
[00:43:49.520 --> 00:43:54.720] There were two escape rooms, but one involved a lot of crawling, which you opted out because you're in a suit, and you opted out because you're in a dress.
[00:43:54.720 --> 00:43:56.800] And I'm not going to say to the listeners which way around that went.
[00:43:57.680 --> 00:43:59.200] And then too few people in that group.
[00:43:59.200 --> 00:44:02.440] So I was like, nah, but I'll join that one just because we needed to get moving, basically.
[00:44:02.440 --> 00:44:05.160] So, yeah, we all end up on the same one.
[00:43:59.920 --> 00:44:06.920] And it was a Jack the Ripper-themed.
[00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:09.320] It was very on-brand for you, Mike.
[00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:09.880] It was.
[00:44:09.880 --> 00:44:13.640] You know, despite I keep saying, I don't give a fuck about Jack the Ripper.
[00:44:13.640 --> 00:44:14.120] Somehow, it keeps me.
[00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:16.520] But you do keep talking about Jack the Ripper.
[00:44:16.520 --> 00:44:25.640] Yeah, you're going to end up being the country's leading ripperologist just as I knew so much about placebo, despite not having any interest in them of themselves as a concept.
[00:44:25.640 --> 00:44:33.240] So it was a kind of Jack the Ripper-themed escape room where we had to solve the Jack the Ripper case, which I think is ambitious.
[00:44:34.040 --> 00:44:35.720] Given it has never been solved.
[00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:38.920] I did suggest, could we just write Aaron Kasminski and just leave?
[00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:39.400] He wasn't an option.
[00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:40.440] He wasn't even on the list.
[00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:42.600] So we should update the record on that.
[00:44:42.600 --> 00:44:44.440] Apparently, he's clear.
[00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:46.360] There were six people on the list, including Lewis Carroll.
[00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:47.160] Lewis Carroll?
[00:44:47.480 --> 00:44:49.560] I felt that was important.
[00:44:50.120 --> 00:44:51.320] Was Lewis Carroll a wrongen?
[00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:53.720] I mean, everyone back then was a wrongen to some extent.
[00:44:54.360 --> 00:44:57.400] Whether he was literally Jack the Ripper or not, I suspect not.
[00:44:57.400 --> 00:45:00.920] I'm going to Google, while we're talking, I'm going to Google, was Lewis Carroll a wrong?
[00:45:03.160 --> 00:45:06.040] And spoilers for listeners, we fucked it.
[00:45:06.280 --> 00:45:08.120] Yeah, we didn't do very well, did we?
[00:45:08.600 --> 00:45:10.200] We couldn't even get into the room.
[00:45:10.680 --> 00:45:12.440] We spent a long time just trying to get into the room.
[00:45:12.520 --> 00:45:31.000] I was a challenge number one because she, the lady who was like, when you do escape rooms, for listeners who haven't done escape rooms, there's usually somebody who gives you the instructions before you go in, maybe gives you a bit of flavour on how the kind of situation that you find yourselves in, locked in an escape room, and then tells you, I'm going to be sat in a room over there.
[00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:32.760] I can see you on the cameras.
[00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:35.240] If you get really stuck, I'll give you a clue.
[00:45:35.240 --> 00:45:39.560] If you need some help, just give me a shout and I'll give you a clue.
[00:45:39.560 --> 00:45:45.360] And so she locked us into a little cage that we had to get through the locked cage to get into the room.
[00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:46.800] That was the first puzzle, right?
[00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:47.920] That was the first puzzle.
[00:45:44.920 --> 00:45:50.000] And in that cage, there were like clothes hung on the walls.
[00:45:50.160 --> 00:45:52.800] Well, like a sweater, there was a jacket, there was like a cape on it.
[00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:55.760] So we thought, oh, the key's probably in pocket or one of those things.
[00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:58.240] So we're seeing it, but the first one will be an easy piece.
[00:45:58.560 --> 00:46:02.960] Because we just need to get into the room and then they'll get increasingly more difficult.
[00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:04.560] We failed the first at the first hurdle.
[00:46:04.720 --> 00:46:07.440] We must have been there 10-15 minutes trying to get through that fucking cage.
[00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:13.040] To be honest, it was particularly annoying because I'd started feeling for the area that the answer was.
[00:46:13.040 --> 00:46:15.920] It was like a stick that we needed to get out, like held on the wall.
[00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:23.280] I'd started feeling for that, but because we only had two small, very underpowered lanterns between us, I gave up because I thought, we're not going to be able to get anything like this.
[00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:24.720] It was very, very dark in there.
[00:46:25.520 --> 00:46:26.480] Update, by the way.
[00:46:26.640 --> 00:46:27.680] Yeah, Rondan, apparently.
[00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:33.600] Yeah, I think I'd heard something recently about some behaviour.
[00:46:34.560 --> 00:46:39.760] But eventually, we, you know, we were in there for like, you know, 10-15 minutes trying to get out of this fucking cage.
[00:46:40.080 --> 00:46:40.800] It wasn't helpful.
[00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:42.400] Were there five of us in the room?
[00:46:42.560 --> 00:46:43.200] Five of us in the spring.
[00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:47.760] And it was quite a small space and it was difficult to move around.
[00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:50.560] So that made it a little bit extra challenging for feelings.
[00:46:51.200 --> 00:46:54.720] It is odd that it's an escape room where we didn't have to escape the room.
[00:46:54.720 --> 00:46:57.120] We did have to have to get into the room to get in there.
[00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:06.720] And there is quite often, I've done quite a few escape rooms, and usually there is a first hurdle of getting through a door or a gate or from a smaller room into a bigger room.
[00:47:06.720 --> 00:47:11.760] And like, we expected that, but we still fully failed.
[00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:16.080] Not just like struggled, not just it took us a while.
[00:47:16.080 --> 00:47:18.400] We had to ask for a clue to get into the room.
[00:47:18.560 --> 00:47:20.240] It was just like there's a stick.
[00:47:20.240 --> 00:47:21.280] There's just a big stick.
[00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:25.600] It was you eventually, Alice, who went, Charlotte, are we missing something really obvious?
[00:47:25.600 --> 00:47:29.080] And then this voice came over the tunnel that just went, yes.
[00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:33.720] Oh, fucking hell, fucking group of fucking idiots.
[00:47:34.040 --> 00:47:38.280] It wasn't really as puzzle-solvy as a lot of escape rooms I've done.
[00:47:38.360 --> 00:47:44.840] It was more be in this room in the dark while we like occasionally fuck with you and give you jump scares, essentially, which I was fine with.
[00:47:44.840 --> 00:47:47.320] It was more absolutely more ghost train than escape room.
[00:47:47.640 --> 00:47:57.160] Yes, but like, so you get different kinds of escape rooms, and a lot of them are very puzzle-based where you've got multiple locks and you've just got to do the puzzle that solves the lock.
[00:47:57.160 --> 00:47:58.520] And we've done a few of those before.
[00:47:58.520 --> 00:48:10.200] I've done some that are more like the one we did that are a bit more abstract, where you've got to smell something and pick the thing that smells right for that lock and have magnets instead of passcodes and stuff.
[00:48:10.200 --> 00:48:18.920] This was more like that, but not quite as whole hog as the fully abstract ones tend to be.
[00:48:18.920 --> 00:48:22.520] So, where we say, oh, there was a smell we had to get right.
[00:48:22.520 --> 00:48:26.120] That one then mapped two numbers on a padlock.
[00:48:26.120 --> 00:48:26.600] Yes.
[00:48:26.600 --> 00:48:29.800] But there was one where it was very much a she's watching us in the other room.
[00:48:29.960 --> 00:48:31.240] Yeah, if we do what she wants.
[00:48:31.560 --> 00:48:33.880] Releases the lock and opens the box.
[00:48:34.200 --> 00:48:35.800] At least three of those, I think.
[00:48:35.800 --> 00:48:36.360] Yes.
[00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:36.760] Yeah.
[00:48:37.080 --> 00:48:44.040] Which is a little bit frustrating because it's like, I just need to, what, like, stand on one foot and, like, jump up and down three times, and she'll open the box.
[00:48:44.120 --> 00:48:45.720] It was very sort of Skinner's pigeons.
[00:48:45.720 --> 00:48:52.680] You know, the pigeons that when they were trying to get to just perform the right ritual the right way and she'll give us a little breadcrumb.
[00:48:52.680 --> 00:48:53.320] But it was still fun.
[00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:54.040] I enjoyed it.
[00:48:54.040 --> 00:48:55.000] It was really fun.
[00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:57.960] But also, they sent actors into the room to fuck with us.
[00:48:57.960 --> 00:48:59.000] I did not like that.
[00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:01.480] You know, which was a bit, it was a bit.
[00:49:01.480 --> 00:49:04.440] So obviously, Charlotte got the, because Nicola was on our team.
[00:49:04.760 --> 00:49:07.640] Obviously, Charlotte got the measure of Nicola early early on.
[00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:11.400] Oh, could you with the glasses like go over towards this door and do that?
[00:49:11.400 --> 00:49:12.520] And just you and no one else.
[00:49:12.680 --> 00:49:17.920] Just you and no one else, because she knew Nicola would shriek at the after jumping out.
[00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:20.880] Post this thing through the letterbox and put your hand in this hole.
[00:49:21.200 --> 00:49:22.880] And Nicola's like, sure, I'll do that.
[00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:25.360] And then was surprised when something grabbed her hand.
[00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:28.480] And then she shrieked five times in a row trying to get it.
[00:49:29.200 --> 00:49:34.160] I was like, Nicola, you do have to put your hand in there though, because we can't carry on until you do get that for us.
[00:49:34.160 --> 00:49:34.640] Yeah.
[00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:43.200] At one point, we got locked into a butcher's back room, like a butcher's room, and the door was closed.
[00:49:43.200 --> 00:49:46.000] And I was like, I don't trust that fucking door.
[00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:48.000] Either something is going to happen with that door.
[00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:49.920] Charlotte had asked us to close the door behind us.
[00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:51.520] This was my issue.
[00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:53.440] She'd asked us to close the door.
[00:49:53.440 --> 00:49:57.120] We'd all walked to the other side of the room and started looking at a different puzzle.
[00:49:57.440 --> 00:50:00.800] And in that process, I forgot that she'd asked us to close the door.
[00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:14.080] So then when I went back over to the door to look at the back of the door, it didn't occur to me at all that something would happen then, which is why I screamed and I've not screamed because a hand came through the door and grabbed me when I wasn't looking.
[00:50:14.080 --> 00:50:16.080] So I was looking at the thing on the door.
[00:50:16.080 --> 00:50:19.600] So I felt the grab before I saw any kind of movement.
[00:50:19.600 --> 00:50:21.680] And that completely threw me off.
[00:50:21.680 --> 00:50:24.000] I was using Rachel as a human shield at this point.
[00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:26.080] I was like, there's definitely something happening at that door.
[00:50:26.080 --> 00:50:29.280] So I've just got to strategically place Rachel between me and the door.
[00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:34.160] As we're talking about it, I've just figured out one of the clues as to why it was meant to be a clue to who the murderer was.
[00:50:34.160 --> 00:50:34.640] Right.
[00:50:34.720 --> 00:50:35.680] Just figured out right now.
[00:50:35.680 --> 00:50:36.880] It's useless to everyone, but yeah.
[00:50:37.600 --> 00:50:39.040] I think that really wound me up.
[00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:40.400] We got it wrong.
[00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:47.520] I think the guess, the first guess that we made, and I won't go through what the real answer was in case listeners who are local want to go and play this play this game.
[00:50:47.520 --> 00:50:49.920] But the first guess that we made was Walter Sickett.
[00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:54.840] And Walter Sickert was a genuine person who was a ripper suspect.
[00:50:56.240 --> 00:50:58.400] I won't say the real answer, but I will start to narrow the answer.
[00:50:58.560 --> 00:51:00.120] I will narrow it down, yeah.
[00:50:59.520 --> 00:51:04.520] Um, because he was a genuine ripper suspect, and I thought, maybe it is.
[00:51:04.600 --> 00:51:09.080] And one of the reasons we thought it was Walter Sickert was because he was listed as the butcher.
[00:51:09.080 --> 00:51:12.360] He was one of the he was down as the butcher in the game.
[00:51:12.360 --> 00:51:16.440] And in the butcher's room, there was a dead body hold on a meat hook.
[00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:20.760] Even if he's not the ripper, he's killed some fucker because he's here.
[00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:23.000] Bring him in for questioning at the very least.
[00:51:23.640 --> 00:51:25.480] That definitely threw us a little bit.
[00:51:25.480 --> 00:51:40.920] And I think, like, partly because we've done the doing the puzzles to solve the clues that we need to do to get through to the room, and we're getting the jump scares from the actors in the room, and it's too dark, and there's too many of us, and we've collected by this point like 12 different pieces of laminated paper.
[00:51:41.560 --> 00:51:49.880] The doing the puzzle bit at the end was just a proper logic puzzle that we would normally all be quite good at, but we were just not in the right frame of mind.
[00:51:50.440 --> 00:51:51.640] But we're completely fucked up.
[00:51:51.640 --> 00:51:54.520] Scared out of our wits doing a logic puzzle in the dark.
[00:51:55.400 --> 00:51:57.640] It's not conducive, really, is it?
[00:52:01.480 --> 00:52:05.560] So, QED tickets for QED are hurtling, hurtling out the fucking day.
[00:52:05.720 --> 00:52:07.320] They really are selling really well.
[00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:10.120] We literally had our fastest ever day of sales.
[00:52:10.120 --> 00:52:11.640] It was our fastest ever day of sales.
[00:52:11.800 --> 00:52:13.000] We talked on the last show.
[00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:15.480] We said, hey, maybe if you're lucky, there's some golad in it.
[00:52:15.640 --> 00:52:16.040] Fuck that.
[00:52:16.040 --> 00:52:16.440] No.
[00:52:16.440 --> 00:52:17.240] They went in nine minutes.
[00:52:17.560 --> 00:52:21.160] Nine minutes, all of the dinner tickets went, which is obviously there will be food options.
[00:52:21.560 --> 00:52:22.680] There's always a rebel dinner.
[00:52:22.680 --> 00:52:24.840] There'll be several species of rebel dinner.
[00:52:24.840 --> 00:52:27.960] So you will be able to have a nice meal out with other attendees.
[00:52:27.960 --> 00:52:30.360] That will all be arranged organically while you're there.
[00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:34.120] But it was our biggest ever first day sales for QED by some margin.
[00:52:34.120 --> 00:52:35.800] So the tickets are hurtling out the door.
[00:52:35.800 --> 00:52:42.120] And if you would like to come to QED, you need to get your skates on because there is a very real chance that we're going to fully sell out this year.
[00:52:42.120 --> 00:52:43.240] I think that's very likely.
[00:52:43.240 --> 00:52:44.440] So you should definitely do that.
[00:52:44.440 --> 00:52:48.160] You can find more information about QED at our website, which is QDCon.org.
[00:52:48.160 --> 00:52:50.480] Tickets are £179.
[00:52:44.840 --> 00:52:52.000] That gets you the full weekend of content.
[00:52:52.240 --> 00:52:54.160] There's no bonuses and no extras, no add-ons.
[00:52:54.160 --> 00:52:58.400] There's no, oh, we'll charge you for having lunch with Richard Dawkins or any nonsense like that.
[00:52:58.400 --> 00:53:01.840] It's just, you know, we'll charge you to not have lunch with Richard Dawkins.
[00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:05.360] Like, give us money, or you're having lunch with Richard Dawkins.
[00:53:06.080 --> 00:53:08.320] So, yeah, qdcon.org.
[00:53:08.320 --> 00:53:10.560] Marsh, you're also doing a talk.
[00:53:10.560 --> 00:53:13.200] Yes, I haven't given a public talk for a little bit.
[00:53:13.200 --> 00:53:21.840] It feels like I've not been on the road for a little bit, but I'm doing all of the road all in one go because I'm going to Plymouth for Plymouth Humanists on the 27th.
[00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:27.520] I'm going to be giving a talk, actually, I'm going to be giving a version of the talk that I'm going to give at QED, in fact.
[00:53:27.520 --> 00:53:32.000] So if you are in the Plymouth region, you can get an advanced version of that.
[00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:38.880] Like when comedians do a work in progress, because I expect you'll do you'll you'll you'll fluff it up a bit for the QED mainstay.
[00:53:39.120 --> 00:53:45.440] Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to make any promises, but it's a work in progress about using data to counter quackery.
[00:53:45.440 --> 00:54:00.880] I'm going to be talking there about a project, an investigation that I spent a lot of last year on and alluded to at times on this show, but haven't got to talking about yet, mainly because it's something I want to get in a place where I can put it together in a published way first before I talk about it.
[00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:04.000] But I will talk about on the show probably after QED.
[00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:05.520] Maybe I'll say I'll do it after QED.
[00:54:05.520 --> 00:54:13.920] So if you want to hear what that interesting investigation is, you can come to Plymouth on the 27th, or you can go, I think, to Sheffield at some point in September.
[00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:14.960] I'll tell you close the time.
[00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:16.800] Or you can come to QED, buy your QED tickets.
[00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:23.200] But yes, so go to the just Google Plymouth Humanists and you will find out all of the details for that.
[00:54:23.200 --> 00:54:24.320] And I'm looking forward.
[00:54:24.320 --> 00:54:29.120] I've been down to Plymouth a couple of times to do bits and bobs and I've always enjoyed it.
[00:54:29.120 --> 00:54:39.400] So yeah, if you go to the B Bar at the Barbican Theatre on Castle Street in Plymouth, that's at 7.30 on Tuesday, the 27th of May.
[00:54:39.400 --> 00:54:43.960] I will be there talking all about using data to counter quackery and alternative medicine.
[00:54:43.960 --> 00:54:49.160] And I also want to give a very quick plug for the Skeptics in the Pob Online Discord channel.
[00:54:49.160 --> 00:54:49.800] Yes, yeah.
[00:54:49.800 --> 00:54:51.240] I'll put a link to that in the show notes.
[00:54:51.240 --> 00:54:55.720] I've put a link to the show a couple of shows ago, but I'll put a link to the show notes in this one as well.
[00:54:55.720 --> 00:54:57.480] That's a fantastic little community.
[00:54:57.480 --> 00:54:58.760] Lots of great skeptics.
[00:54:58.920 --> 00:55:02.280] It's run by the folks at Skeptics in the Pop Online, who are brilliant folks.
[00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:06.840] And you can also, there's a dedicated channel there for Skeptics with a K, so you can drop in there.
[00:55:07.560 --> 00:55:13.000] And we're all in there and checking out what's going on and we'll respond most of the time.
[00:55:13.000 --> 00:55:13.320] We will.
[00:55:13.320 --> 00:55:31.240] And if you join the Discord now, if you join the Discord soon after hearing this, you might be able to find a link pinned to the top, which is a fantastic little program designed by one of our listeners, by Seligman, who has transcribed all of our shows and made them keyword searchable.
[00:55:31.240 --> 00:55:33.960] So you can find interesting things out like that.
[00:55:33.960 --> 00:55:39.720] Mike has mentioned the words Doctor Who on a phenomenally large number of shows.
[00:55:39.720 --> 00:55:42.680] 221 episodes, Mike has said the words Doctor Who.
[00:55:42.840 --> 00:55:44.040] Not enough, in my opinion.
[00:55:44.200 --> 00:55:45.000] 221.
[00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:45.960] This is episode what?
[00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:47.160] This is episode 415.
[00:55:47.160 --> 00:55:47.720] 415.
[00:55:47.720 --> 00:55:51.480] So on more than half of all episodes, you talked about Doctor Who.
[00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:53.240] That is ridiculous.
[00:55:53.880 --> 00:55:57.080] That is insufficient, is how I'm going to characterize that.
[00:55:57.080 --> 00:55:59.160] But yeah, so you can go there, find that link.
[00:55:59.160 --> 00:56:01.480] Also, you can go to our Patreon, if you want to support the show.
[00:56:01.480 --> 00:56:03.880] You'll notice we've moved this, what we've been up to, towards the back end of the show.
[00:56:03.880 --> 00:56:09.960] We're just want to try this out for a little bit, see if there's kind of an interesting way of doing the show, get you straight into skeptical content from the start.
[00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:10.840] But we're not going to get rid of it.
[00:56:10.840 --> 00:56:22.720] So, obviously, if you do like the show and you want to support it and support us, you can hosts if you go to patreon.com forward slash skeptics with a K, and you can keep the show going and keep us going.
[00:56:22.720 --> 00:56:24.800] Aside from that, then I think that's all we have time for.
[00:56:24.800 --> 00:56:25.440] I think it is.
[00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:28.000] All that remains then is for me to thank Marsh for coming on today.
[00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:28.400] Cheers.
[00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:29.360] Thank you to Alice.
[00:56:29.360 --> 00:56:30.000] Thank you.
[00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:32.480] We have been Skeptics with a K, and we will see you next time.
[00:56:32.480 --> 00:56:33.120] Bye, no.
[00:56:33.120 --> 00:56:33.840] Bye.
[00:56:38.640 --> 00:56:43.680] Skeptics with a K is produced by Skeptic Media in association with the Merseyside Skeptic Society.
[00:56:43.680 --> 00:56:52.720] For questions or comments, email podcast at skepticswithakay.org, and you can find out more about Merseyside Skeptics at merseyside skeptics.org.uk.