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[00:00:06.640 --> 00:00:14.800] It is Thursday, the 8th of May, 2025, and you're listening to Skeptics with a K, the podcast for science, reason, and critical thinking.
[00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:25.600] Skeptics with a K is produced by Skeptic Media in association with the Merseyside Skeptic Society, a non-profit organization for the promotion of scientific skepticism on Merseyside around the UK and internationally.
[00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:26.800] I'm your host, Mike Hall.
[00:00:26.880 --> 00:00:28.000] With me today is Marsh.
[00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:28.480] Hello.
[00:00:28.480 --> 00:00:29.360] And Alice.
[00:00:29.360 --> 00:00:30.000] Hello.
[00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:37.600] So I had there's a thing in Doctor Who, there's a thing that Doctor Who fans have known forever, and that is that the doctor is allergic to aspirin.
[00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:38.720] Aspirin will kill him.
[00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:39.840] That's a thing.
[00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:40.640] Actually, kill him.
[00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:41.280] Will kill him.
[00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:41.840] Wow.
[00:00:42.160 --> 00:00:44.000] And it's been a thing in fandom for age.
[00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:44.800] We know this.
[00:00:44.800 --> 00:00:50.400] But it's quite unusual because we never talk about which episode it's in.
[00:00:50.400 --> 00:00:53.200] You never see a clip of the doctor going, oh, I'm allergic to aspirin.
[00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:54.080] It never happens.
[00:00:54.080 --> 00:00:56.560] But we all know the doctor is allergic to aspirin.
[00:00:56.560 --> 00:01:00.800] And there was an issue with Doctor Who magazine recently, which had an interview with Russell T.
[00:01:00.800 --> 00:01:01.520] Davis.
[00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:10.320] And he said when they were filming the first Eccleston series, Eccleston came to him and said, I've read on the internet that the doctor's allergic to aspirin.
[00:01:10.320 --> 00:01:11.840] Can we work that into a story somehow?
[00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:16.560] Can, you know, kind of be given aspirin in a hospital and then, you know, work that into the plot.
[00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:17.920] And Russell said, okay, right.
[00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:20.960] Well, then, and he kicked around some ideas about how they might work that into a story.
[00:01:20.960 --> 00:01:24.400] And then eventually Russell said, look, Chris, honestly, just don't worry about it.
[00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:29.040] It was a thing said once in the 60s by William Hartnell.
[00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:31.680] Not everything that was said back in those days is canon.
[00:01:32.080 --> 00:01:33.120] Don't worry about it.
[00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:33.600] It's all right.
[00:01:33.600 --> 00:01:34.400] It's fine.
[00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:36.640] And so Russell mentioned this in an interview recently.
[00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:40.000] And I looked at that and went, did he, though?
[00:01:40.160 --> 00:01:41.520] Is this a Henry Beecher thing?
[00:01:41.520 --> 00:01:42.080] When did that happen?
[00:01:42.160 --> 00:01:42.720] When did that happen?
[00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:44.640] I did go full Beecher on it.
[00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:50.080] And so I ended up, I looked into it, and I ended up, I wrote a spread on Blue Sky explaining this.
[00:01:50.080 --> 00:01:53.920] It turns out that the doctor has never claimed to be allergic to aspirin in the show.
[00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:55.040] It didn't happen.
[00:01:55.040 --> 00:02:03.960] What people are thinking of there is a line in a John Pertwee story, which is a story set in a prison, and the doctor is attacked by an alien mind parasite and he's on the floor.
[00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:12.200] And, you know, the prison doctor gives the doctor's companion a bottle of pills and says, give him one of those and see if it helps.
[00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:13.240] Sell me pills.
[00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:16.760] Anyway, it all comes together.
[00:02:16.760 --> 00:02:19.160] It says, give him one of those and see if that helps.
[00:02:19.160 --> 00:02:22.840] And then the doctor's kind of delirious on the floor and he says, no, he can't give me that.
[00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:24.120] It's a wrong metabolism.
[00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:25.960] You'll probably kill me.
[00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:28.040] But nowhere does it ever say that it's aspirin.
[00:02:28.040 --> 00:02:28.440] Ah.
[00:02:28.440 --> 00:02:29.720] And it's not an allergy.
[00:02:29.720 --> 00:02:30.600] It's not an allergy.
[00:02:30.600 --> 00:02:32.360] He just says it's the wrong metabolism.
[00:02:33.080 --> 00:02:35.400] Which sounds more doctor-like than allergy.
[00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:35.880] Yeah.
[00:02:35.880 --> 00:02:38.920] And it's a John Pertwee story, not a William Hartnell story.
[00:02:38.920 --> 00:02:45.080] And so I thought, well, why does everyone think it's a William Hartnell thing when, one, it was John Pertwee and B, it wasn't aspirin?
[00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:46.200] I also just said one and B.
[00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:47.240] You didn't say one of them.
[00:02:47.720 --> 00:02:49.560] But, you know, it happens.
[00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:50.520] It happens.
[00:02:50.520 --> 00:03:00.440] And so I looked into it a little bit more, and it turns out that there was a documentary in 1993 called 30 Years in the TARDIS, which was like a celebration of 30 years of Doctor Who.
[00:03:00.440 --> 00:03:02.520] Quite badly timed four years after the show was cancelled.
[00:03:02.680 --> 00:03:03.560] I think I remember it.
[00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:06.760] Is that when they showed the original see, they showed the original episodes again?
[00:03:06.760 --> 00:03:08.040] Could that have been about 10 then?
[00:03:08.040 --> 00:03:08.120] Yeah.
[00:03:08.600 --> 00:03:09.240] Yeah, I think I remember that.
[00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:13.000] That might be the time that I watched, I think, my only Doctor Who Episode.
[00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:14.520] Only Doctor Who Episode, which was the first one.
[00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:27.560] So in 30 years in the TARDIS, they had a list of essential information about the doctor because it was kind of part retrospective, part, you know, celebration, part introduction for people who'd never seen the show before.
[00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:30.920] And they said, oh, the doctor once said that an aspirin might kill him.
[00:03:30.920 --> 00:03:32.760] It's what the voiceover said in that episode.
[00:03:32.760 --> 00:03:37.960] But they illustrated that with a clip of William Hartnell's doctor lying unconscious on the floor.
[00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:41.320] And it's like, shit, that's where it's from.
[00:03:41.320 --> 00:03:49.840] Because it turns out the first time it was mentioned in canon was in a novel in 1993 after the show had finished.
[00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:51.440] So the BBC have invented it at that point.
[00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:53.280] And so it's kind of been invented.
[00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:55.360] So I put all this in a thread in Blue Sky.
[00:03:55.920 --> 00:03:58.080] But I also felt like a big, stupid.
[00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:05.520] Well, actually, Russell said this in an interview recently, and I don't think he's in, you know, I sound like Rybellian.
[00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:09.680] So I said, yeah, it's fucking inconsequential, stupid thread about Aspirin and Doctor Who, right?
[00:04:09.760 --> 00:04:11.440] And wrote several things.
[00:04:11.440 --> 00:04:18.480] And my mentions are now full of well-known Doctor Who historians going, This is an important piece of research.
[00:04:19.280 --> 00:04:21.760] This is stuff that we didn't know about before.
[00:04:21.760 --> 00:04:22.240] Well done.
[00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:30.320] I had one guy, which was the guy who did the interview with Russell where he mentioned it, apologized to me and said, I didn't know this.
[00:04:30.320 --> 00:04:32.400] I'd have corrected Russell if I'd known.
[00:04:32.640 --> 00:04:33.600] I'm really sorry.
[00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:36.960] I've fallen for the great Hartnell aspirin hoax as well.
[00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:39.760] I'm just being a knobbed.
[00:04:39.840 --> 00:04:41.600] You don't need to say this is an important piece of research.
[00:04:41.760 --> 00:04:42.560] I mean, it isn't important.
[00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:44.800] I'm not watching, but I can tell you it is not important.
[00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:46.720] It's so inconsequential.
[00:04:47.280 --> 00:04:51.360] But yeah, that was an unexpected turn of events.
[00:04:52.320 --> 00:04:54.480] I've just got back from a weekend in Wales.
[00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:57.520] I went to a comedy festival in Wales, a Huntley Festival.
[00:04:57.520 --> 00:04:58.320] I camped.
[00:04:58.320 --> 00:05:00.480] I've never camped at a comedy festival.
[00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:01.360] You cump.
[00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:01.840] I cump.
[00:05:02.080 --> 00:05:04.720] I did some camping at Comedy Festival.
[00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:05.920] I like camping.
[00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:07.120] I don't mind a bit of camping.
[00:05:07.200 --> 00:05:08.720] Nicolette enjoys camping.
[00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:09.600] We enjoy camping.
[00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:10.400] We did some camping.
[00:05:10.400 --> 00:05:10.960] We got there.
[00:05:11.440 --> 00:05:12.560] We were very prepared.
[00:05:13.760 --> 00:05:18.080] You do do the very middle-class version of camping where they have a fuck-off massive tent.
[00:05:18.080 --> 00:05:18.480] Big tent.
[00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:19.200] Massive tent.
[00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:23.520] Where they'll take, you know, a proper table so they can sit at the table to have a little bit of a table.
[00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:30.280] Well, we didn't have a little table, we did a little table, you know, a camping stove and a teapot so that they can all have sit and have a tea.
[00:05:30.280 --> 00:05:35.480] And like, you do the very middle class, but it's a very, you can stand up fully upright in their tent.
[00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:37.400] I can jump in our tent, I can literally jump.
[00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:38.840] I'm six foot one, I can jump in our tent.
[00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:42.920] You don't have a big double bed that you take your bed.
[00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:45.800] You don't sleep in sleeping bags, you take your bedding in a bed sheet.
[00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:47.560] That was the thing, you see.
[00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:51.720] On a couple of as we were driving, Nicola's like, I can't believe we brought this much stuff.
[00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:52.920] I said, of course, we brought this much stuff.
[00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:53.240] That's easy.
[00:05:53.400 --> 00:05:54.040] You always take that much stuff.
[00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:58.920] We unfurled our double airbed and started to pump it up.
[00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:05.560] And it was the single airbed that we bought the last time we went camping with Alice because Alice had a tent with us and Alice was in her little tent.
[00:06:05.640 --> 00:06:07.240] We got her a little single airbed.
[00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:08.680] So we didn't have a double airbed.
[00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:09.720] So we didn't have that.
[00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:13.880] So which was very much a Nicola's sleeping on an airbed and I'm sleeping on the floor arrangement.
[00:06:13.880 --> 00:06:14.760] And also as you were.
[00:06:14.840 --> 00:06:16.360] So you're camping and Nicola's not.
[00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:17.080] Yeah.
[00:06:17.400 --> 00:06:22.600] And as we were getting things together, I was saying, well, we'll just take the duo off the bed because we need to change the bed sheets.
[00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:25.080] Yeah, exactly.
[00:06:25.080 --> 00:06:26.680] I was like, we need to change the bed sheets anyway.
[00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:27.800] So we won't change this weekend.
[00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:30.040] We'll take the duvet down with us and we'll change it when we get back on it.
[00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:32.600] So like, no, I thought we'd just take our sleeping bags.
[00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:33.400] It's like, yeah, you sure.
[00:06:33.400 --> 00:06:35.160] She said, no, I don't want to take the duovi while we're down there.
[00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:37.000] So we didn't have the duvet either.
[00:06:37.320 --> 00:06:39.240] So first night, I'm sleeping on the floor.
[00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:43.720] I had to take like one of the blankets that we normally put on top of the airbed just to make it a bit more comfortable.
[00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:45.160] I had to put that folded up and sleeping.
[00:06:45.400 --> 00:06:48.840] We took a fucking mattress and a mattress topper.
[00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:58.040] It's actually like an old sleeping bag, like a sort of quilted, like a semi-thick sleeping bag that we sort of lay out as kind of a bottom sheet for our bed.
[00:06:58.040 --> 00:06:58.760] But I had to take that.
[00:06:58.760 --> 00:07:02.680] I had to fold that up so it was like still long enough for me to be on.
[00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:03.160] Yes.
[00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:08.920] And wide enough for me to be on and stay on, but also doubled over enough times that I was slightly off the ground.
[00:07:08.920 --> 00:07:10.760] That wasn't quite good enough.
[00:07:10.760 --> 00:07:14.480] So, on the second night, I took our tent carpet.
[00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:17.920] I folded that up.
[00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:19.360] So, okay, I was able to sleep on top of that.
[00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:26.480] But we were too cold because we didn't have our duvet, which means that Nicola had to go and buy some spare blankets the next day.
[00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:36.160] So, day two of us camping, we were at least on several layers of piled up material and had several layers of blankets on top of me.
[00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:40.240] It is less catastrophic than the time you went camping and forgot to take your tent pegs.
[00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:40.880] That is true.
[00:07:40.880 --> 00:07:41.440] That is true.
[00:07:41.440 --> 00:07:44.880] We did take the tent pegs, we did take the tent poles as well, which is fine.
[00:07:44.880 --> 00:07:55.680] As we got into our tent on the night, the first night, Nicola went to do the zip and somehow managed to open the tent without the zip, without moving the zip.
[00:07:55.680 --> 00:08:03.440] Just to don't know quite what happened, but you know, when a zip comes off one side of the zip, and then it kind of goes and it unzips all the way up.
[00:08:03.440 --> 00:08:04.640] Yes, did that.
[00:08:04.640 --> 00:08:11.280] And it's really hard to do to put the zip back on if the zip is and also if it's uh if it's stitched at both ends.
[00:08:11.280 --> 00:08:17.040] So, like when you do that to a jacket and it starts to pull up, you go, oh, I've got to now pull the zip all the way off and put it back on properly at the bottom.
[00:08:17.840 --> 00:08:22.960] You can't do that if it's only on one side and the zip is stitched at both ends.
[00:08:22.960 --> 00:08:26.240] So, we couldn't shut one half of our tent for this.
[00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:28.080] The same night, it was far too cold.
[00:08:28.080 --> 00:08:34.080] So, I had to like velcro it together and then take one part of it and tent peg it into the ground and hold it tall.
[00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:38.960] So, yeah, it was a characteristic disaster of a tenting expedition.
[00:08:39.040 --> 00:08:48.560] You say disaster, it sounds like your terrible disaster roughing it is just camping, which is what everyone else does, just where they're ordinarily camping.
[00:08:48.560 --> 00:08:57.760] If we analyze what went wrong and break it down, and bearing in mind, Nicola doesn't listen to the shore, in a lot of cases, it was like, Should we take a duvet?
[00:08:57.840 --> 00:08:59.280] No, let's not take a duvet.
[00:08:59.280 --> 00:09:00.680] Now we're too cold.
[00:09:00.680 --> 00:09:01.800] What happened to the tent?
[00:09:01.800 --> 00:09:03.080] Oh, I didn't open it properly.
[00:08:59.760 --> 00:09:05.320] Okay, I will jerry-rig it in a way that it will stay cold.
[00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:14.200] So it's a lot of Nicola adding an extra level of spice, an extra level of challenge to the tenting experience that I've got to overcome as a problem solver.
[00:09:17.880 --> 00:09:20.840] So the last few weeks have been a particularly challenging time in the UK.
[00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:36.840] We've not talked about it on the show yet, and we're not going to spend a long on it today because, quite frankly, I think our trans and non-binary listeners deserve some escape from the horrific amplification of discussion around whether they deserve basic human rights or not under the misguided view that giving rights to trans people somehow infringes on the rights of cis women.
[00:09:37.160 --> 00:09:49.480] There are loads of excellent resources on the details of the Supreme Court ruling created by the trans people who are most affected by the ruling and legal experts who are both challenging the ruling and figuring out the implications and how best to mitigate those implications.
[00:09:49.480 --> 00:09:52.840] Yeah, there's a lot of people rushing into what they think the implications are.
[00:09:52.840 --> 00:10:06.360] I mean, I saw that the Football Association has banned trans women from football at all levels while acknowledging that among the literally more than a million amateur players registered, there are fewer than 30 trans women involved.
[00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:14.040] So it's like, I'm glad that you've taken time out of your day to fuck those particular small number of people and say you are never allowed to play football again in any version.
[00:10:14.040 --> 00:10:23.720] Without, you know, making the big changes that need to be made throughout the football, top to bottom, to actually make women safe and well supported and well funded.
[00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:26.200] Yeah, there's no funding in women's football.
[00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:30.360] There's an epidemic of ACL injuries at the top level, which needs to be investigated in some way.
[00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:37.800] There's an epidemic of sexual abuse and various other power disappearance, but no, the important thing is those fewer than 30 people specifically.
[00:10:37.800 --> 00:10:43.080] And there have obviously been some excellent demonstrations of solidarity among members of the trans community and their allies.
[00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:55.360] I've been to two rallies in Liverpool myself, and I honestly couldn't be prouder of the eloquent men, women, and non-binary people who've spoken on this issue while experiencing what must feel like a direct attack on their humanity.
[00:10:55.680 --> 00:11:00.400] So far on this show, we've modelled our inclusivity by just being inclusive.
[00:11:00.400 --> 00:11:09.680] For example, obviously, I talk a lot about things that affect both people with anatomy traditionally associated with women and things that affect people who are femme presenting or femme perceived.
[00:11:09.680 --> 00:11:18.240] And I do my best to use language that best articulates the groups of people who are being targeted by the wellness industry, for example, in these areas without being clunky.
[00:11:18.560 --> 00:11:23.600] Hopefully, most of our listeners don't notice it because it's intended to blend in naturally as an unspoken position.
[00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:33.040] But I know that some of our trans and non-binary listeners notice and hopefully feel a little more recognized in our discussions, even when most of the research on a lot of these topics are actually predominantly in cis people.
[00:11:33.280 --> 00:11:36.880] We don't have the understanding when it comes to trans people.
[00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:48.320] When it comes to actually discussing the evidence of transness, though, the decision that I've held so far is that I choose not to talk about the evidence around that topic or biological sex because I genuinely believe it should not matter.
[00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:50.080] Trans and non-binary people exist.
[00:11:50.400 --> 00:11:51.920] I don't need evidence to prove that to me.
[00:11:51.920 --> 00:11:56.080] There are an entire group of people who are telling us their experience and how it impacts them.
[00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:58.560] I don't need science to respect another human being.
[00:11:58.560 --> 00:12:00.880] I don't need science to prove someone's experience.
[00:12:00.880 --> 00:12:08.160] A person's right to their human rights does not depend on the science of their experience and whether that science backs up their experience.
[00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:16.560] As far as I'm concerned, and speaking on behalf of all three of us, which I think you'll all agree with me, as far as skeptics with a K is concerned, people's human rights are not up for debate.
[00:12:16.560 --> 00:12:16.960] Yeah, exactly.
[00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:21.280] Shouldn't be a statement that he's making, but you know, that's kind of the position that we've taken.
[00:12:21.280 --> 00:12:32.440] And it's really challenging because we know that we have trans and non-binary listeners, and we know that when cis people talk about these topics, it can be the trans and non-binary people who are then exposed to harmful backlash.
[00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:37.720] I mean, we'll we get backlash as well, of course, but it's it's not attacking our personhood when we get that backlash.
[00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:41.560] It's at worst annoying to us, it's not existential to us.
[00:12:41.880 --> 00:12:46.200] We take our responsibility as creators seriously and we don't want to invite that harm to our audience.
[00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:53.960] So we've made a decision to be clear about our position without necessarily having those kind of salacious conversations about it too often.
[00:12:53.960 --> 00:13:00.920] But today I'm going to talk about some forms of gender-affirming care in the wellness world that are targeted at cis people specifically.
[00:13:00.920 --> 00:13:07.480] And given the climate that we're living in at the moment, and that obviously goes beyond the UK, I've seen some terrible things in other parts of the world recently as well.
[00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:13.320] I wanted to take this opportunity to offer an explicit preface to this piece: that we are trans-inclusionary.
[00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:18.840] QED is trans-inclusionary, the Mersai Skeptic Society is trans-inclusionary, the Skeptic Mag is trans-inclusionary.
[00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:24.360] And at the very least, that means that we respect and care about our trans and non-binary audience in all of those places.
[00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:30.200] We try to go beyond just care and respect because good intentions are never enough, but that's our absolute minimum.
[00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:35.720] And it should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway, we're inclusive of other groups too, including all women.
[00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:44.280] Yeah, and that scientific standard of, oh, you have to be able to prove that this side of it is not a scientific standard that people, at least these days, apply to like sexuality, for example.
[00:13:44.280 --> 00:13:49.080] There's no one saying, well, I don't believe gay people exist until you can show me scientifically how gay people exist.
[00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:53.560] And we recognize that when we did have those conversations, we were very wrong about that.
[00:13:53.560 --> 00:14:00.840] And when we go back to that standard, as many people are trying to push as the next wave of what we're currently experiencing, they'll be wrong about that too.
[00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:01.320] Yeah.
[00:14:01.640 --> 00:14:05.960] One group's rights should never come at the expense of another group's rights.
[00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:11.880] Sometimes that means we have to have challenging conversations to make sure that everyone is protected and that we're doing things the right way.
[00:14:11.880 --> 00:14:13.560] But I don't think that's what's happening here.
[00:14:13.560 --> 00:14:19.760] Right now, an incredibly marginalized group is being put at further risk of harm by decisions being made without their input.
[00:14:19.760 --> 00:14:22.320] And we need to come together and show our solidarity.
[00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.480] Not least because this is going to impact a lot more than just trans and non-binary folk.
[00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:31.680] So, with all that being said, I'm not talking specifically about trans issues today, but I am going to be talking about testosterone.
[00:14:31.680 --> 00:14:40.480] And I just wanted to take the opportunity to really just say that explicitly because I think the world that we live in today, it's important for us to make that explicit.
[00:14:40.640 --> 00:14:41.760] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:46.240] A few weeks ago, there were some adverts linked to our show from a company called Manual.
[00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:50.640] I love link to our show is a very euphemistic way of saying we broadcast some adverts.
[00:14:51.520 --> 00:14:52.480] Yeah, but we didn't choose them.
[00:14:52.880 --> 00:14:53.680] We didn't choose it.
[00:14:53.680 --> 00:14:57.920] But we did say if you pick out some adverts, if you hear adverts, we will pick them apart if they're bullshit.
[00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:01.600] And a lot of listeners wrote in to tell us about these adverts, which is great.
[00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:02.960] It's exactly what we want to see.
[00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:07.680] So, Manual's tagline on their website is men's health the way it should be.
[00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:12.560] They say that you can choose what to solve, and then they offer these options for solving.
[00:15:12.560 --> 00:15:17.920] You can solve your hair loss, your low testosterone, weight loss, hair transplant, and erectile dysfunction.
[00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:20.480] You can solve your weight loss.
[00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:23.760] I assume that's the solution they're offering you.
[00:15:23.760 --> 00:15:26.240] That's I didn't look into it.
[00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:30.800] I've particularly focused on the low testosterone section for this piece because it has become a very long piece.
[00:15:30.800 --> 00:15:34.320] But I did click through onto the weight loss one, and what they're offering is GLP1.
[00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:37.600] So, they are offering ZenPic.
[00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:41.440] And we've not touched on a Zenpic yet on the show.
[00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:45.120] We will touch on a Zenpic on the show at some point, definitely, but we haven't yet.
[00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:55.280] So, they say that their service is healthcare made easy and that they offer access to science-backed treatments and custom formulations proven to work based on research.
[00:15:55.600 --> 00:16:01.000] They also offer unlimited medical support via call, WhatsApp, or email completely for free.
[00:15:59.920 --> 00:16:06.360] Their about section says, We're challenging the outdated notion that real men shrug their shoulders and carry on.
[00:16:06.680 --> 00:16:12.680] And they say, By empowering men with all the information and choices they need to proactively own their well-being, we can turn a corner.
[00:16:12.680 --> 00:16:19.640] We're here to be your own personal manual, a guide to owning your health and happiness, giving you all the tools you need to be good to you.
[00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:21.880] Just on those few topics, obviously.
[00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:25.480] It is very much a we are empowering men to buy our product.
[00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:29.960] There are men out there who don't buy our product, but we're empowering them to be brave enough to do so.
[00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:33.880] And this is something that I've complained about before when it comes to the women's wellness industry.
[00:16:33.880 --> 00:16:46.360] And I have a whole talk about how systemic bias in society and medicine has led to the wellness industry offering women empowerment and selling them solutions to problems that social pressure and social media have created.
[00:16:46.680 --> 00:16:53.560] We've talked plenty about the social media context for women that makes them vulnerable to a wellness industry, offering them quick fixes that aren't evidence-based.
[00:16:53.560 --> 00:16:56.520] And we've even touched a little bit on the climate around masculinity.
[00:16:56.520 --> 00:17:00.040] In fact, we talked about it very recently when we talked about Joe Rogan's popularity.
[00:17:00.040 --> 00:17:07.640] And we've also touched on it when we're talking about influencers like Russell Brand and others in the masculinity space that have been selling supplementation for all sorts of things.
[00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:08.280] Yeah.
[00:17:08.600 --> 00:17:13.400] One thing I don't think we've touched on enough is the rise of the fitness influencer.
[00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:20.120] So, the fitness influencer is by no means new, but I think it's really ramping up even more in the last 12 to 18 months.
[00:17:20.120 --> 00:17:21.560] Yeah, and we're probably looking around.
[00:17:21.560 --> 00:17:26.680] We are not the target demographic of fitness influencers in the sense that we are not particularly fitness obsessed.
[00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:36.280] No, but my, if I go onto my For You page on Instagram, I now see almost exclusively fitness content coming up on that page.
[00:17:36.280 --> 00:17:59.200] And particularly, you'll get a lot of women for the women's influencer space, you'll get a three-image side-by-side of the cut phase, the maintenance phase, and the what do they call it, the bulk phase, and how you're supposed to be like calorie controlling in three different phases so that you can gain muscle in the right places and all of these things.
[00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:00.720] But it's constant.
[00:18:01.040 --> 00:18:06.160] And as you say, I'm not seeking out fitness or fitness content most of the time.
[00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:16.000] And I think it's especially interesting that it's ramping up so much over the last 12 to 18 months as we're currently kind of transitioning into a new body trend.
[00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:20.560] We go through trends of like body shape and body, what's in fashion when it comes to our bodies.
[00:18:20.560 --> 00:18:35.280] And we're definitely in a phase where we're transitioning from the body positivity, body neutrality kind of trend into now the skinny talk, losing a lot of weight, skinny is cool again, kind of phase.
[00:18:35.280 --> 00:18:48.720] It's really complicated to tease out any sort of directionality, but I think it's really highly linked that we've moved through those body positivity into body neutrality and now we're back into those really extreme trends, especially in the age of Azempic.
[00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:55.120] And yeah, as I say, skinny talk, which definitely will also cover on the show in the not too distant future.
[00:18:55.120 --> 00:18:58.160] But we also have a range, a wide range of fitness influencers.
[00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:04.400] Many are doing good work to try and challenge extreme body shape trends and support people in making healthy choices that work for their bodies and lifestyles.
[00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:12.400] But many more are sharing ways to build particular muscles in certain places and talking more and more about specific ways to enhance and exaggerate the body.
[00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:27.600] And we're seeing this in film as well as the idea of the kind of buff superhero has become even more extreme with actors sometimes undergoing quite extreme exercise plans, severe calorie control, and even severely dehydrating themselves on filming days to make sure that their muscles are looking extra defined.
[00:19:27.600 --> 00:19:28.240] It's so weird.
[00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:41.880] So, you see that, I saw something recently comparing Hugh Jackman as Wolverine in the first the first time he played Wolverine and how he looks now and what they expected his body to do for the later films is insane compared to the original version of him.
[00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:49.160] That particular example is just so stark because yeah, he's he looks like what people would call just a normal guy now.
[00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:53.000] But he was like a built guy the first time and now he's this ludicrous muscle machine thing.
[00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:54.040] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[00:19:54.040 --> 00:20:08.840] And it's something that Hugh Jackman has talked openly about about how absolutely shit he feels when they're shooting those kind of shirtless scenes where he has to dehydrate himself for 36 hours and you know, you say, I've got a rotten fucking headache.
[00:20:08.840 --> 00:20:09.720] I feel awful.
[00:20:09.880 --> 00:20:12.920] You know, we couldn't possibly do it for any length of time.
[00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:17.560] And that's quite common when you're filming is you put yourself, you know, you're in a flying harness and everything's digging in.
[00:20:17.560 --> 00:20:18.280] It fucking hurts.
[00:20:18.520 --> 00:20:21.400] You're cold and you're wet and you're wearing that costume in that weather.
[00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:27.960] And it's common in filming, but it's not a model for people on the street, which is how it's often being taken.
[00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:32.760] And I think even then it's different if it's the situation you're in or you're in this harness and this kind of stuff.
[00:20:32.760 --> 00:20:33.400] Okay, that's one thing.
[00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:43.560] But it seems like it's I think it's another thing where you've undergone this level of deprivation of something vital in order to achieve a certain look over a very short space of time.
[00:20:43.560 --> 00:20:49.400] That feels like an extra step more than, well, you need it to be in this position because that's what we need for the shot.
[00:20:49.400 --> 00:20:54.360] But you don't need to look that way for the shot, apart from just purely the taste at the time.
[00:20:54.360 --> 00:21:04.920] And I'm interested in how much that actually feeds into then those criticisms that we often see the kind of the anti-woke brigade who are like, oh, well, you know, historically, this isn't accurate.
[00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:09.960] You wouldn't have a black person in this part of London doing these kinds of jobs in those days.
[00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:20.800] And if we've also got people doing extreme things to make their bodies look a very particular way for the film, then you can see how that would feed expecting certain things.
[00:21:21.040 --> 00:21:24.240] You can't possibly suspend your disbelief and just go, do you know what?
[00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:24.800] It's a film.
[00:21:24.800 --> 00:21:25.680] I'm watching a film.
[00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:31.360] People, I don't expect my actors to be fainting because they haven't eaten in three days.
[00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:37.760] I also don't expect to have a predominantly white cast just because that's what it would have been historically in the area.
[00:21:37.760 --> 00:21:42.880] Yeah, and I also think there's this weird, kind of horribly toxic masculinity element of it.
[00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:57.600] That if the industry was still routinely putting, and I'm saying still because it's certainly used to, putting actresses through that level of extreme body modification, extreme deprivation of food and various things like that.
[00:21:57.600 --> 00:22:02.560] If that was such a heavy expectation, it would be a much more talked about issue.
[00:22:02.560 --> 00:22:09.840] And obviously, that was something that was happening offlook, especially in the early 2000s, actresses were basically starved skinny in order to fit a look.
[00:22:09.840 --> 00:22:13.760] And I think we feel like we've moved past that as a culture, at least to some degree.
[00:22:13.760 --> 00:22:17.840] We're possibly moving back in that direction with the rise of skinny talking as I'm picking everything.
[00:22:17.840 --> 00:22:19.040] But yeah, I take your point.
[00:22:19.040 --> 00:22:34.960] But we've sleepwalked into that for male actors, but it's not a topic of conversation because men have to just suck that up as a look how much, look how masculine I am, look how strong I am to be able to endure in these kind of ways things that should not be, you shouldn't be made to endure.
[00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:35.840] They're not reasonable.
[00:22:35.840 --> 00:22:40.880] And I think this is the world that the fitness influencer kind of men are existing within.
[00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:45.600] And you are now seeing these fitness influencer men who have been building muscle.
[00:22:45.840 --> 00:22:50.800] I saw this really interesting video recently of a guy who'd been doing committed gym plans for several years.
[00:22:50.800 --> 00:22:54.080] He's like, I've been working out, I've been building muscle for five years.
[00:22:54.080 --> 00:22:58.880] And I get comments in my videos that I've got a dad bod.
[00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:01.560] He's like, look at the size of my bicep.
[00:22:59.760 --> 00:23:03.240] Like, this is not a dad bod.
[00:23:03.560 --> 00:23:20.280] This is just a muscular physique for a normal man who isn't extremely reducing their fat level so that you can see all the definition, who isn't, you know, dehydrating so that you can see all the definition, and is just a normal guy who's built.
[00:23:20.280 --> 00:23:21.960] But a normal guy who's doing quite a lot of work.
[00:23:22.120 --> 00:23:24.840] Doing a lot of working out and is like dedicated to it.
[00:23:25.080 --> 00:23:26.200] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:38.600] But this is kind of not what people are expecting to see on the fitness influencer space because, I mean, I looked, I specifically signed up for TikTok so that I could see search for specifically testosterone on TikTok.
[00:23:38.600 --> 00:23:49.160] And the videos that came up were just such extreme modified bodies with the really extremely large muscles, but the very extreme definition as well.
[00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:54.200] Just pages and pages and pages of videos like that from different creators.
[00:23:54.520 --> 00:24:01.000] So our perception of what appears masculine has shifted quite extremely in the last few years.
[00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:07.800] And exposure to particular physical ideals has shifted quite extremely as social media becomes more and more dominant.
[00:24:07.800 --> 00:24:11.560] And we already know that men can suffer in silence when it comes to their mental health.
[00:24:11.560 --> 00:24:28.520] We know that men can be susceptible to eating disorders and that when they are suffering with eating disorders, they don't get access to treatment that they need, partly because of societal assumptions that it doesn't affect men, but also because they're putting pressure on themselves to cope in silence with something that they might consider emasculating or feminine.
[00:24:28.840 --> 00:24:38.680] The body positivity and body neutrality movements are less likely to reach communities of men who are struggling with their body image because of societal expectations and social media.
[00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:42.280] That's just not reached that particular part of the world.
[00:24:42.280 --> 00:24:51.280] And while disordered eating can be one misguided way to address body image issues, it's also clear that there are plenty of wellness companies who are keen to capitalize on those insecurities too.
[00:24:51.280 --> 00:24:55.040] Which is not to say that manual is deliberately capitalizing on insecurities.
[00:24:55.040 --> 00:24:58.000] They claim to be empowering men to proactively own their well-being.
[00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:00.800] And who am I to question their specific intention?
[00:25:00.800 --> 00:25:02.480] Yeah, on this shore.
[00:25:03.040 --> 00:25:07.360] Questioning the specific intention of a hormone testing company is something you're not going to do on this shore.
[00:25:08.080 --> 00:25:09.040] Not again.
[00:25:09.760 --> 00:25:21.520] But I will question what good it does to the mindset to tell men or women or non-binary folks that the issues they're struggling with when it comes to their own health is something they should proactively own.
[00:25:21.520 --> 00:25:35.520] I mean, yes, it's important to feel empowered when it comes to healthcare, to feel able to make autonomous decisions about the treatment we get, but we also know that sometimes piling on more and more pressure onto the individual only papers over the cracks when it comes to healthcare.
[00:25:35.520 --> 00:25:42.160] We know that we have some systemic problems that we need to address, and the solution is not to have individuals do everything for themselves.
[00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:51.200] All people should have access to the medical treatments they need, but it's hard to separate needed treatments to treatment needs which are somewhat manufactured.
[00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:53.280] So, for example, testosterone.
[00:25:53.280 --> 00:25:59.440] Plenty of people in the fitness community will make claims about testosterone boosting and muscle size and definition.
[00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:06.960] And searching for testosterone boost on TikTok reveals some videos of men showing off extremely exaggerated muscles.
[00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:13.760] It also has lots of videos from men telling you how to boost your testosterone, including eating raw onion, spending time in the study.
[00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:15.280] Eating raw onion.
[00:26:15.280 --> 00:26:16.720] It's always raw onion, isn't it?
[00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:17.120] Yeah.
[00:26:17.120 --> 00:26:17.640] At least it's you.
[00:26:17.800 --> 00:26:19.280] Put it in your sock to cure your cold.
[00:26:19.360 --> 00:26:20.160] I was going to say, yeah.
[00:26:20.800 --> 00:26:22.800] Eat it raw to boost your testosterone.
[00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:30.120] So if you have a cold and low testosterone and you only have access to one onion, can you do both?
[00:26:29.600 --> 00:26:34.120] Or will it not help your testosterone if you eat an onion that's been on your feet a long time?
[00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:41.880] It's better if you cook it and get rid of any bacteria or yeasty fungal infections.
[00:26:43.320 --> 00:26:47.480] Or spending time in the sun apparently increases your testosterone or exercising.
[00:26:47.480 --> 00:27:00.120] There are also all sorts of videos claiming that if you're tired, have low energy, don't wake with an erection each morning and or have low libido, then you probably have low testosterone because it's really common, according to TikTok.
[00:27:00.120 --> 00:27:14.040] There's even something doing the rounds on TikTok at the moment, in fact, claiming that young men are taking Plan B emergency contraception in order to crash their testosterone so they test low when they see their doctors and can get testosterone prescribed.
[00:27:14.040 --> 00:27:20.120] Is that a real thing that's happening or just one of the things that goes around on TikTok like, oh, this is happening everywhere, but there's no examples of it anywhere?
[00:27:20.120 --> 00:27:30.920] So I struggled, and this is why I ended up signing up for TikTok again, was because I'm fucking struggling to find stuff on Google at the minute because Google search function is becoming completely useless.
[00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:42.040] And I was like, okay, so I'm just going to go straight to the source and try and search there because I couldn't find anything in Google, anything in Google News using any of my kind of normal search terms, but that could just be because Google's shite at the moment.
[00:27:42.040 --> 00:27:55.320] Yeah, because Google will just show you, here's a massive AI generated box, then here's a few videos that may or may not be anyway related, then here's a list of six dropdowns of things people might have also asked about the vague area that you're interested in, and then here's the top five hits from Reddit.
[00:27:55.320 --> 00:28:01.160] I was saying I've got nothing, nowhere yet have I hit anything of anyone with a fucking clue what is going on.
[00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:09.240] I was saying to Warren the other day that it's like having a conversation with his mum sometimes because she just pings off into vaguely related things and it just keeps bringing vague.
[00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:10.200] It's like, did you mean this?
[00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:11.160] No, I didn't mean this.
[00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:12.120] I told you what I meant.
[00:28:12.120 --> 00:28:13.240] I used these keywords.
[00:28:13.560 --> 00:28:17.280] Specific thing I asked for, please, not what people reckon off of Reddit.
[00:28:18.560 --> 00:28:22.880] But as far as I can, I'm really struggling to find any evidence really that it's happening.
[00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:36.240] There's a few videos of people sharing one particular, or like two primary sources of people claiming that they've done it, but even those primary sources are people like there's a guy in a doctor's office wearing a mask saying that he's done it.
[00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:41.360] But reminds you of the isolologies in the vagina third.
[00:28:41.840 --> 00:28:49.280] It's just it's a quirky thing that'll get you some clicks, but it probably isn't actually like a typo, at least not on any widespread basis.
[00:28:49.600 --> 00:28:55.120] But so I'm seeing far more videos highlighting it as a dangerous practice than I am people claiming that it's worth attempting.
[00:28:55.120 --> 00:29:11.200] So I think it is a manufactured thing, but obviously with any of these manufactured things, there's the risk that the trend comes because of people creating the trend, especially because labenogesterol, which is the contraceptive in Plan B, would reduce your testosterone levels.
[00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:13.440] That's not a recommendation to take it for anybody.
[00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:15.920] There are better ways to reduce your testosterone levels.
[00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:25.920] There are even better ways to DIY reduce your testosterone levels if you're struggling to get access to testosterone blockers, but it would technically work.
[00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:27.280] Not safely.
[00:29:27.280 --> 00:29:29.360] So how does manual work?
[00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:31.600] That depends on the treatment option you select.
[00:29:31.600 --> 00:29:35.280] So they offer a range and we'll focus on the low testosterone.
[00:29:35.280 --> 00:29:47.280] So they sell two kit options: the initial test for low testosterone diagnosis, where they say join 30,000 men and take the first step to treating low testosterone by ordering this diagnostic test.
[00:29:47.280 --> 00:29:53.520] This quick finger prick blood test taken in the comfort of your own home will give you readings for your total and free testosterone.
[00:29:53.520 --> 00:30:00.040] Take the first step in determining if you are eligible for TRT treatment, so testosterone replacement therapy.
[00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:06.920] They say that they tested four biomarkers: total testosterone, free testosterone, albumin, and sex hormone binding globulin.
[00:30:07.240 --> 00:30:14.360] The kit is £55, but they say that you save 40% on your first order, so it's just £33.95.
[00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:17.240] Under the heading that they say, who is this test for?
[00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:25.640] They say that one in four men over the age of 30 may have abnormally low testosterone levels with symptoms that can be far reaching and take the joy of life.
[00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:29.320] Our at-home testosterone blood test helps you discover whether you are suffering from low testosterone.
[00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:34.520] This is the first step in determining if you're eligible for treatment with testosterone replacement therapy.
[00:30:34.520 --> 00:30:37.000] So one in four may have that.
[00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:41.720] So what they're saying is, well, it's just, we know that three in four definitely don't need our product.
[00:30:42.040 --> 00:30:43.800] One in four, you may.
[00:30:44.520 --> 00:30:46.440] That's not saying one in four do.
[00:30:46.760 --> 00:30:54.120] After you've done the initial test kit, they then offer the enhanced testosterone blood test, which they say is to confirm your initial diagnosis for low testosterone.
[00:30:54.120 --> 00:31:02.280] So this is a comprehensive venous blood test, they say, and it's needed to confirm your testosterone levels and to assess your suitability for testosterone replacement therapy.
[00:31:02.280 --> 00:31:09.160] It costs a minimum of £49.95, which is the basic kit, but you need to find somebody to take your blood sample.
[00:31:09.400 --> 00:31:13.560] It just gives you those purple topped tubes that you get given bloods.
[00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:22.120] Otherwise, you can pay £79.95 if you want to go to one of their partner clinics for a nurse to take the sample or £119.95 for the nurse to come to your home.
[00:31:22.120 --> 00:31:28.520] This test tests for a bunch of things relating to hormone levels, but also general health markers like liver and kidney function and cholesterol.
[00:31:28.520 --> 00:31:33.480] And if you're confirmed to have low testosterone, you then speak to a specialist for £79.95.
[00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:35.640] And if they agree, you can start testosterone treatment.
[00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:46.400] Then you're looking at £99 a month for oral treatment, £99 to £169 for injectable treatments per month, and £129 to £159 for topical treatments per month.
[00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:57.280] So that's around £215 to get to the prescription point, and then between £1,188 and £1,900 plus pounds per year.
[00:31:57.600 --> 00:32:00.560] And so the thing is, that's a lot of money.
[00:32:00.560 --> 00:32:14.960] But also, if you had very clear symptoms and you were frustrated that you were in a massive queue, that you just weren't getting referrals, but you were fairly confident because so many other things were very clear markers, it's not a lot of money to get a diagnosis.
[00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:25.520] But the problem then, they're not targeting the people who are so heavily clear, like they're pretty solidly sure that they've got an issue and they're just struggling to get the referral.
[00:32:25.520 --> 00:32:26.720] They're targeting everyone.
[00:32:26.800 --> 00:32:27.440] Precisely.
[00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:29.440] They're targeting one in four men at least.
[00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:30.800] Yeah, exactly.
[00:32:30.800 --> 00:32:40.560] And it does sound that manual are doing a thorough investigation before prescribing testosterone, that they're going through the process reasonably and that you get to see specialists in this area.
[00:32:40.560 --> 00:32:47.600] The challenging thing, as you say, is whether all the people who might use the manual system need to be treated for low testosterone.
[00:32:47.600 --> 00:32:54.240] As with anything that fluctuates between individuals, it's not as simple as having a threshold at which we say you have low levels, you need treatment.
[00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:58.720] We don't treat everybody who has low testosterone because they might not have any symptoms of low testosterone.
[00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:06.560] Their bodies might be naturally more equipped to manage with the naturally lower levels of testosterone and have absolutely no symptoms.
[00:33:06.560 --> 00:33:11.040] No treatment comes without risk, so we should be cautious of taking treatments that aren't needed.
[00:33:11.040 --> 00:33:15.360] If you've got low testosterone but no other symptoms, you're probably doing all right.
[00:33:15.360 --> 00:33:17.200] Yeah, and I could, I mean, I don't know.
[00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:19.440] You've looked into Manuals, so I don't know anything about them.
[00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:26.640] I could certainly see there is a smart business model that would be along the lines of, imagine we don't think that gauss exist, right?
[00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:28.480] As a podcast, we don't think that gauss exists.
[00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:43.880] If we were able to sell a ghost testing experience, a ghost testing kit to people, and we said, oh, and if you do find that you have a ghost, we will support you in your exorcism where we will go through this long, lengthy, expensive procedure.
[00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:50.520] We'd be hoping lots of people take the test and none of them have a ghost because that would be the maximum thing for us.
[00:33:50.520 --> 00:33:54.040] Because then we're just selling units and never having to worry about any of the follow-up.
[00:33:54.040 --> 00:33:56.680] That's the maximum way for us to get return on investment there.
[00:33:56.680 --> 00:34:03.560] The worst case scenario for us is that someone would find a ghost and we have to spend a lot of money then efficiently trying to get rid of their ghost.
[00:34:03.560 --> 00:34:08.200] But a load of people testing for ghosts who don't have ghosts would be a really good way for us to make a return.
[00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:09.400] It would be.
[00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:16.200] I think this is certainly a different business model because low testosterone is relatively common.
[00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:23.720] It's not an uncommon thing and it might well cause symptoms in some men and treatment would be beneficial for those men.
[00:34:23.720 --> 00:34:24.200] Yeah.
[00:34:24.200 --> 00:34:24.920] So in those...
[00:34:25.160 --> 00:34:28.520] I couldn't quickly think of an analogy that wasn't as ridiculous as ghost.
[00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:31.880] It happens, but not as often as all that, yeah.
[00:34:32.200 --> 00:34:43.480] I don't know whether they're making good money on the consultations and the prescriptions and whether that's, you know, it's more financially valuable for them to not treat than to treat.
[00:34:43.480 --> 00:34:47.000] But if you compare that to, say, the hair testing people, right?
[00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:52.840] Where you send off a sample of your hair and immediately they come back and say, oh, actually, there's all these things wrong with you.
[00:34:52.840 --> 00:34:55.800] And what you need is to buy this and this and this and this and this off us.
[00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:57.400] And manual doesn't sound like they're doing that.
[00:34:57.400 --> 00:35:02.360] They're saying, okay, and then we'll do a confirmatory test just to make sure because it might have just been a bad day for you.
[00:35:02.360 --> 00:35:05.600] And then we'll see if we can ask a specialist for a specialist to talk about it.
[00:35:05.600 --> 00:35:08.360] Because if you're not symptomatic, then there might not be a problem.
[00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:12.520] It sounds like they're doing a little bit more work than the outright scams.
[00:35:12.680 --> 00:35:13.080] Oh, yeah, yeah.
[00:35:13.400 --> 00:35:14.800] I'm not accused of being outright scammed.
[00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:15.360] It'd be absolutely useful.
[00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:28.960] I think it probably is, as you say, in that small percentage of cases where you're almost certain, or maybe you've even spoken to a GP who said it's likely, but you're kind of threshold.
[00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:29.360] Yeah.
[00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:38.960] For those people, it might well be a reasonable route to get to treatment, an expensive route to get to treatment, but a reasonable route to get to treatment if you're struggling to get through the healthcare system.
[00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:46.640] But there are obviously greater issues with blanket screening, which we've talked about before and I'm going to come on to again in a minute.
[00:35:46.640 --> 00:35:54.320] So, testosterone treatment can obviously be useful for patients who have male hypogonadism, which is a clinical syndrome.
[00:35:54.320 --> 00:36:06.640] So, the British Journal of General Practice describes it as a clinical syndrome characterized by testosterone deficiency and impaired spermatogenesis due to either diseases of the hypothalamus or pituitary gland or the testes themselves.
[00:36:06.640 --> 00:36:14.960] So, testosterone is produced by the testes, you can have an issue there, or you can have an issue with the parts of the brain that trigger that production of testosterone.
[00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:30.480] So, diagnosis requires a clinical measurement of low testosterone and the presence of clinical features such as reduced libido, erectile dysfunction, and loss of waking erections, anemia, osteoporosis, and vasomotor sweating or flushing.
[00:36:30.640 --> 00:36:38.960] Men can also experience symptoms such as fatigue, loss of motivational concentration, irritability, low or labile mood, body image concerns.
[00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:47.840] So, there's a whole range of symptoms that might be something, and all of these symptoms are things that you could be experiencing for other reasons.
[00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:52.880] We know that kind of mental health issues might cause issues with libido and erectile dysfunction.
[00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:57.440] We know that other health conditions can cause anemia and osteoporosis.
[00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:05.320] We know that fatigue and low motivation are irritability are all kind of things that people might encounter, especially in the climate that we currently live in.
[00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:12.440] And add in body image concerns as well, of course, like these are symptoms that could be a symptom of something else.
[00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:22.040] So the ideal scenario is you notice that you have some symptoms, you speak to a doctor, you're taken seriously by that doctor, which isn't a given.
[00:37:22.040 --> 00:37:25.800] You have tests to confirm or rule out various causes.
[00:37:25.800 --> 00:37:31.960] You might continue exploration until the cause of best fit is found, and then you undergo treatment.
[00:37:31.960 --> 00:37:46.360] And that might take you to going to your GP and saying that I've got, you know, low mood, fatigue, erectile dysfunction, loss of morning erections, and your GP goes, oh, okay, that last one, that's quite common with low testosterone.
[00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:51.240] We'll test you for low testosterone and maybe get treated for low testosterone.
[00:37:51.240 --> 00:37:55.160] But it might be, oh, all of those symptoms are potentially symptoms of low testosterone.
[00:37:55.160 --> 00:37:56.360] We test for low testosterone.
[00:37:56.360 --> 00:37:57.800] You don't have low testosterone.
[00:37:57.800 --> 00:38:01.960] Let's go and find some other things that might cause those symptoms.
[00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:05.560] Of course, there are loads of ways that that ideal scenario goes wrong.
[00:38:05.560 --> 00:38:18.040] People with symptoms of chronic ill health who have symptoms like fatigue, irritability, body image concerns, perhaps weight gain, which can be associated with low testosterone, might be dismissed or misdiagnosed, or offered unhelpful advice like lose weight and then we'll talk.
[00:38:18.040 --> 00:38:21.560] Or men are given the impression that they should suck it up because it's not a big deal.
[00:38:21.560 --> 00:38:27.320] I'm sure there are men that would benefit from testosterone replacement therapy who are not getting access to that therapy.
[00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:32.040] But my concern here is that social media is talking about testosterone all the time.
[00:38:32.040 --> 00:38:36.440] People are being pushed into believing that their problems are caused by low testosterone.
[00:38:36.440 --> 00:38:52.240] In fact, an article in the British Journal of General Practice said in 2020: over recent years, there has been a surge in testosterone prescriptions for men with sexual dysfunction or putative age-related decline in testosterone, possibly reflecting pharmaceutical promotion or sharing of misleading information on the internet.
[00:38:52.480 --> 00:39:00.160] With growing demands and expectations of men worrying about their well-being, there is a real risk of overdiagnosis and unnecessary treatment with testosterone.
[00:39:00.160 --> 00:39:03.760] And I suspect that this issue has only multiplied in the last five years.
[00:39:04.080 --> 00:39:12.080] And overdiagnosis or misdiagnosis is especially an issue if it means you're missing your true diagnosis, which could be something serious.
[00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:21.600] And even if it's not serious, if it's causing you those symptoms and it's something that can be treated, you don't want to live with those symptoms that are affecting your life.
[00:39:21.600 --> 00:39:25.120] Especially as testosterone replacement therapy is not side effect-free.
[00:39:25.120 --> 00:39:25.920] No, exactly.
[00:39:26.080 --> 00:39:31.280] And it can cause heart issues in people who are taking that treatment.
[00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:35.520] This is part of the issue with providers such as Manuel.
[00:39:35.520 --> 00:39:38.240] If you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
[00:39:38.240 --> 00:39:42.640] When you take the testosterone test, you've already put yourself on a specific pathway.
[00:39:42.640 --> 00:39:47.680] You've biased the direction towards a result that the cause of your symptoms is low testosterone.
[00:39:47.680 --> 00:39:54.080] Then when you get your test results back to say that your testosterone is low, you're sent to speak to one of Manual's testosterone specialists.
[00:39:54.080 --> 00:39:58.160] But those specialists are already primed to be looking for symptoms of low testosterone.
[00:39:58.160 --> 00:40:12.000] And I don't doubt that they're highly qualified experts, but it's easy to get into a pattern of seeing patients day in and day out with symptoms of low testosterone and make unconscious assumptions, which might mean that some people are missing out on a diagnosis that's actually meaningful for them.
[00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:25.200] This feeds into similar concerns we've discussed about overscreening and health anxiety that can be contributed to by at-home testing kit industry, by the at-home testing kit industry, and in my opinion, is not adequately regulated.
[00:40:25.200 --> 00:40:29.360] It's not about any one single company, it's about a climate where this has become the norm.
[00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:33.560] We're too busy to prioritize our health, it's hard to get an appointment with a GP.
[00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:37.000] Maybe it's embarrassing to talk about changes to our libido or morning erections.
[00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:40.440] Maybe we've been dismissed by a doctor before and we're scared of it happening again.
[00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:45.400] But now you can just send off for a test kit and get everything you think you need delivered to your door.
[00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:52.840] You can take ownership without actually taking ownership because you're not actually going and speaking to a medical professional, you're just sending off for a kit.
[00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:55.560] And that can be incredibly seductive.
[00:40:55.560 --> 00:41:04.920] I don't like to end these stories by just saying speak to a doctor if you think you have symptoms that require treatment, because I know it's not that easy for everyone, even in the UK, where healthcare is free at the point of use.
[00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:13.720] It's why I made a glib comment about DIY testosterone blockers before, because for some people, it's difficult to get access to the treatments that they need.
[00:41:13.720 --> 00:41:23.880] But I will say, be cautious of people offering immediate answers to complicated issues and quick fixes where they're starting with the answer and not curiosity about the patient.
[00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:30.200] Empowering the individual should be about centering the individual, not starting with the solution and moving backwards.
[00:41:34.360 --> 00:41:40.680] So, in the last few days, the tickets for the final ever QED have just been put on sale.
[00:41:40.680 --> 00:41:47.800] QED is taking place this year on the 25th and 26th of October in the Mercury Or Piccadilly Hotel in central Manchester.
[00:41:47.800 --> 00:41:54.280] Free skeptic camp, as per usual, on the 24th, Friday, October the 24th, and that's going to be a fantastic time as well.
[00:41:54.280 --> 00:41:59.080] But we've also launched our initial lineup of guest speakers for QED as well.
[00:41:59.080 --> 00:42:02.120] So, the first one we've got to announced is Annie Kelly.
[00:42:02.120 --> 00:42:04.440] Yes, people will, I'm sure, know Annie Kelly.
[00:42:04.440 --> 00:42:10.120] She's the UK correspondent for the QAnon Anonymous podcast, now called the QAA podcast.
[00:42:10.120 --> 00:42:16.560] She researches on extremism, the far-right, manosphere, anti-feminism kind of areas.
[00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:17.840] So she's going to be right about.
[00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:23.280] So I've really wanted to see Annie speak for some time and just haven't quite been able to make it work.
[00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:25.920] So I'm really excited to have her come and speak to QED.
[00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:32.480] And I think she'll, if people do listen to QAA, I think they'll recognize that she's got a good sense of things.
[00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:34.400] I think she's a really entertaining kind of person as well.
[00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:36.720] So yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing that one.
[00:42:36.720 --> 00:42:41.520] We also have, and I know this is someone that you're especially enthusiastic about, Alice, is Anna Poshaiski.
[00:42:41.520 --> 00:42:44.240] Yes, I'm really excited to have Anna Poschaiski speak.
[00:42:44.240 --> 00:42:51.520] So she is, she's a science communicator and comedian who I know through like my, or know of through my work.
[00:42:51.520 --> 00:42:57.040] She does stuff with the in the reproducibility world that I work in.
[00:42:57.040 --> 00:43:04.640] But she's just a very enthusiastic science communicator who finds the interesting and exciting stuff about science to share.
[00:43:04.640 --> 00:43:10.080] So she's a material scientist by training, but like she's going to say some really exciting and interesting things.
[00:43:10.080 --> 00:43:18.480] I kind of have her in the like Helen Shirsky space of like just being really passionate about science and knowing how to make that interesting to other people.
[00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:36.720] We also have just announced Naomi Ryan, who is a criminal and public law barrister, but who has a particular interest in kind of macabre case, but also especially around paranormal cases, which is when we saw that as a speaker, we were like, that's bang in the intersection of where we want to be with QED.
[00:43:36.720 --> 00:43:49.360] Yeah, we're always looking to put things like the paranormal and supernatural on stage at QED, and that can be quite difficult to do because there's not always a huge number of people who are like, who are talking about that these days when there's so many other kind of things that people are focusing on.
[00:43:49.360 --> 00:44:02.200] But I think her angle on it is really interesting, which is the where in the in sort of British court case law has belief in the supernatural and paranormal actually affected people's lives in court cases and legal cases.
[00:44:02.200 --> 00:44:04.040] I think it's a really interesting angle.
[00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:05.240] And that's going to be brilliant.
[00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:11.480] And one more speaker that we've got to talk about today, and I fancy I can pronounce this correctly, Michael Marshall.
[00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:15.000] Yeah, I've not spoken to QED for quite a few years.
[00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:18.120] I think the last time I spoke at QED on the main stage, I did my Flat Earth talk.
[00:44:18.120 --> 00:44:19.880] So that would have been about 2018.
[00:44:22.680 --> 00:44:24.280] Last chance to do QED.
[00:44:24.280 --> 00:44:26.680] And there's an investigation I've been hinting at for a while.
[00:44:26.680 --> 00:44:28.280] I hinted at it quite a bit last year.
[00:44:28.280 --> 00:44:32.120] And I was intending to have been talking about on the show.
[00:44:32.120 --> 00:44:34.360] And I've had to keep pushing it back for various different reasons.
[00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:41.960] But there's an investigation I spent some time on throughout 2024 that I'm really keen to be able to share with an audience.
[00:44:41.960 --> 00:44:44.920] I've given a talk about it for Mercedes Skeptic Society.
[00:44:45.240 --> 00:44:51.000] I'm giving a talk on the 27th of May, actually, for the Plymouth Humanists, which should be good.
[00:44:51.000 --> 00:44:56.200] If anyone's in the Plymouth area, by all means, look that up and come and see me and get a sneak preview of what I'm talking about at QED.
[00:44:56.200 --> 00:44:59.880] So yeah, looking forward to giving that for the last ever QED.
[00:44:59.880 --> 00:45:01.560] And I'll be there on stage talking about that.
[00:45:01.720 --> 00:45:03.320] Farmer's stuff that you don't know about yet.
[00:45:03.320 --> 00:45:06.920] And listeners, I've seen that talk, and it's a genuinely fascinating piece of research.
[00:45:06.920 --> 00:45:10.600] And you will be missing out if you do not come to QED and see it.
[00:45:10.600 --> 00:45:14.120] One last name to mention as well is our MC.
[00:45:14.120 --> 00:45:19.320] So for the MC for QED, we like to kind of rove it around and have various different people come back for MCs.
[00:45:19.320 --> 00:45:22.360] And it was tempting this year to say, do we go back to one of our old MCs?
[00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:25.160] Because it's our last QED.
[00:45:25.560 --> 00:45:27.880] Do we kind of do a part retro, part looking to the future?
[00:45:27.960 --> 00:45:29.080] I've taken Andy Wilson.
[00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:31.400] We could have brought Andy Wilson back.
[00:45:31.640 --> 00:45:33.480] That was very much on the table.
[00:45:33.480 --> 00:45:40.520] But instead, and quite fantastically, and how we've managed to do QED for this long without having this person MC is astonishing.
[00:45:40.680 --> 00:45:43.800] We will have Robin Ince will be MCing the final QED.
[00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:44.800] And it's about fucking time.
[00:45:44.520 --> 00:45:46.160] It's about time, yeah.
[00:45:46.240 --> 00:45:53.280] It's we instead of going to someone who has MC'd QED before, we've gone to someone who absolutely should have MC'd QED before.
[00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:57.760] But and it's just in a way that we haven't quite been able to make diaries match up it in the past.
[00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:00.160] He's a very busy man, he's a very busy man.
[00:46:00.160 --> 00:46:06.320] He does a lot of things, he says a lot of things, he talks an awful lot in lots of different places, and he's gonna be doing a lot of that for us.
[00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:08.480] So, tickets for QED are available now.
[00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:19.360] They are £179, which gets you access to the full weekend, gets you across all the event spaces, including the Saturday night entertainment, gets you access to all the workshops, all the panels, all the live podcast sessions, etc.
[00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:22.080] There is one additional bonus you can get, which is the dinner.
[00:46:22.080 --> 00:46:23.360] Probably sold out by now, to be honest.
[00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:24.320] I imagine so.
[00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:26.080] How long the ticket's been on sale at this point?
[00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:27.840] Uh, 48 hours-ish.
[00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:29.600] There'll be almost none.
[00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:37.520] If there's any left, it's gonna be very, very lucky listeners, you might be able to sneak in for a gull of dinner ticket, but almost always they've gone by this point.
[00:46:37.520 --> 00:46:41.280] So, yes, you can find more information about that at qedcon.org.
[00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:43.280] And yeah, it will be fantastic to see you there.
[00:46:43.280 --> 00:46:45.280] It is your last chance.
[00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:48.400] All that remains then is for me to thank Marsh for coming along today.
[00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:48.960] Cheers.
[00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:50.000] Thank you to Alice.
[00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:50.480] Thank you.
[00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:53.280] We have been Skeptics with a K, and we will see you next time.
[00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:54.000] Bye now.
[00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:54.960] Bye.
[00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:04.880] Skeptics with a K is produced by Skeptic Media in association with the Merseyside Skeptic Society.
[00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:14.080] For questions or comments, email podcast at skepticswithakay.org, and you can find out more about Merseyside Skeptics at merseysideskeptics.org.uk.

Prompt 2: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 3: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 4: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Full Transcript

[00:00:06.640 --> 00:00:14.800] It is Thursday, the 8th of May, 2025, and you're listening to Skeptics with a K, the podcast for science, reason, and critical thinking.
[00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:25.600] Skeptics with a K is produced by Skeptic Media in association with the Merseyside Skeptic Society, a non-profit organization for the promotion of scientific skepticism on Merseyside around the UK and internationally.
[00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:26.800] I'm your host, Mike Hall.
[00:00:26.880 --> 00:00:28.000] With me today is Marsh.
[00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:28.480] Hello.
[00:00:28.480 --> 00:00:29.360] And Alice.
[00:00:29.360 --> 00:00:30.000] Hello.
[00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:37.600] So I had there's a thing in Doctor Who, there's a thing that Doctor Who fans have known forever, and that is that the doctor is allergic to aspirin.
[00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:38.720] Aspirin will kill him.
[00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:39.840] That's a thing.
[00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:40.640] Actually, kill him.
[00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:41.280] Will kill him.
[00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:41.840] Wow.
[00:00:42.160 --> 00:00:44.000] And it's been a thing in fandom for age.
[00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:44.800] We know this.
[00:00:44.800 --> 00:00:50.400] But it's quite unusual because we never talk about which episode it's in.
[00:00:50.400 --> 00:00:53.200] You never see a clip of the doctor going, oh, I'm allergic to aspirin.
[00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:54.080] It never happens.
[00:00:54.080 --> 00:00:56.560] But we all know the doctor is allergic to aspirin.
[00:00:56.560 --> 00:01:00.800] And there was an issue with Doctor Who magazine recently, which had an interview with Russell T.
[00:01:00.800 --> 00:01:01.520] Davis.
[00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:10.320] And he said when they were filming the first Eccleston series, Eccleston came to him and said, I've read on the internet that the doctor's allergic to aspirin.
[00:01:10.320 --> 00:01:11.840] Can we work that into a story somehow?
[00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:16.560] Can, you know, kind of be given aspirin in a hospital and then, you know, work that into the plot.
[00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:17.920] And Russell said, okay, right.
[00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:20.960] Well, then, and he kicked around some ideas about how they might work that into a story.
[00:01:20.960 --> 00:01:24.400] And then eventually Russell said, look, Chris, honestly, just don't worry about it.
[00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:29.040] It was a thing said once in the 60s by William Hartnell.
[00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:31.680] Not everything that was said back in those days is canon.
[00:01:32.080 --> 00:01:33.120] Don't worry about it.
[00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:33.600] It's all right.
[00:01:33.600 --> 00:01:34.400] It's fine.
[00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:36.640] And so Russell mentioned this in an interview recently.
[00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:40.000] And I looked at that and went, did he, though?
[00:01:40.160 --> 00:01:41.520] Is this a Henry Beecher thing?
[00:01:41.520 --> 00:01:42.080] When did that happen?
[00:01:42.160 --> 00:01:42.720] When did that happen?
[00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:44.640] I did go full Beecher on it.
[00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:50.080] And so I ended up, I looked into it, and I ended up, I wrote a spread on Blue Sky explaining this.
[00:01:50.080 --> 00:01:53.920] It turns out that the doctor has never claimed to be allergic to aspirin in the show.
[00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:55.040] It didn't happen.
[00:01:55.040 --> 00:02:03.960] What people are thinking of there is a line in a John Pertwee story, which is a story set in a prison, and the doctor is attacked by an alien mind parasite and he's on the floor.
[00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:12.200] And, you know, the prison doctor gives the doctor's companion a bottle of pills and says, give him one of those and see if it helps.
[00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:13.240] Sell me pills.
[00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:16.760] Anyway, it all comes together.
[00:02:16.760 --> 00:02:19.160] It says, give him one of those and see if that helps.
[00:02:19.160 --> 00:02:22.840] And then the doctor's kind of delirious on the floor and he says, no, he can't give me that.
[00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:24.120] It's a wrong metabolism.
[00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:25.960] You'll probably kill me.
[00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:28.040] But nowhere does it ever say that it's aspirin.
[00:02:28.040 --> 00:02:28.440] Ah.
[00:02:28.440 --> 00:02:29.720] And it's not an allergy.
[00:02:29.720 --> 00:02:30.600] It's not an allergy.
[00:02:30.600 --> 00:02:32.360] He just says it's the wrong metabolism.
[00:02:33.080 --> 00:02:35.400] Which sounds more doctor-like than allergy.
[00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:35.880] Yeah.
[00:02:35.880 --> 00:02:38.920] And it's a John Pertwee story, not a William Hartnell story.
[00:02:38.920 --> 00:02:45.080] And so I thought, well, why does everyone think it's a William Hartnell thing when, one, it was John Pertwee and B, it wasn't aspirin?
[00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:46.200] I also just said one and B.
[00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:47.240] You didn't say one of them.
[00:02:47.720 --> 00:02:49.560] But, you know, it happens.
[00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:50.520] It happens.
[00:02:50.520 --> 00:03:00.440] And so I looked into it a little bit more, and it turns out that there was a documentary in 1993 called 30 Years in the TARDIS, which was like a celebration of 30 years of Doctor Who.
[00:03:00.440 --> 00:03:02.520] Quite badly timed four years after the show was cancelled.
[00:03:02.680 --> 00:03:03.560] I think I remember it.
[00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:06.760] Is that when they showed the original see, they showed the original episodes again?
[00:03:06.760 --> 00:03:08.040] Could that have been about 10 then?
[00:03:08.040 --> 00:03:08.120] Yeah.
[00:03:08.600 --> 00:03:09.240] Yeah, I think I remember that.
[00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:13.000] That might be the time that I watched, I think, my only Doctor Who Episode.
[00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:14.520] Only Doctor Who Episode, which was the first one.
[00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:27.560] So in 30 years in the TARDIS, they had a list of essential information about the doctor because it was kind of part retrospective, part, you know, celebration, part introduction for people who'd never seen the show before.
[00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:30.920] And they said, oh, the doctor once said that an aspirin might kill him.
[00:03:30.920 --> 00:03:32.760] It's what the voiceover said in that episode.
[00:03:32.760 --> 00:03:37.960] But they illustrated that with a clip of William Hartnell's doctor lying unconscious on the floor.
[00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:41.320] And it's like, shit, that's where it's from.
[00:03:41.320 --> 00:03:49.840] Because it turns out the first time it was mentioned in canon was in a novel in 1993 after the show had finished.
[00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:51.440] So the BBC have invented it at that point.
[00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:53.280] And so it's kind of been invented.
[00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:55.360] So I put all this in a thread in Blue Sky.
[00:03:55.920 --> 00:03:58.080] But I also felt like a big, stupid.
[00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:05.520] Well, actually, Russell said this in an interview recently, and I don't think he's in, you know, I sound like Rybellian.
[00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:09.680] So I said, yeah, it's fucking inconsequential, stupid thread about Aspirin and Doctor Who, right?
[00:04:09.760 --> 00:04:11.440] And wrote several things.
[00:04:11.440 --> 00:04:18.480] And my mentions are now full of well-known Doctor Who historians going, This is an important piece of research.
[00:04:19.280 --> 00:04:21.760] This is stuff that we didn't know about before.
[00:04:21.760 --> 00:04:22.240] Well done.
[00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:30.320] I had one guy, which was the guy who did the interview with Russell where he mentioned it, apologized to me and said, I didn't know this.
[00:04:30.320 --> 00:04:32.400] I'd have corrected Russell if I'd known.
[00:04:32.640 --> 00:04:33.600] I'm really sorry.
[00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:36.960] I've fallen for the great Hartnell aspirin hoax as well.
[00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:39.760] I'm just being a knobbed.
[00:04:39.840 --> 00:04:41.600] You don't need to say this is an important piece of research.
[00:04:41.760 --> 00:04:42.560] I mean, it isn't important.
[00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:44.800] I'm not watching, but I can tell you it is not important.
[00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:46.720] It's so inconsequential.
[00:04:47.280 --> 00:04:51.360] But yeah, that was an unexpected turn of events.
[00:04:52.320 --> 00:04:54.480] I've just got back from a weekend in Wales.
[00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:57.520] I went to a comedy festival in Wales, a Huntley Festival.
[00:04:57.520 --> 00:04:58.320] I camped.
[00:04:58.320 --> 00:05:00.480] I've never camped at a comedy festival.
[00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:01.360] You cump.
[00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:01.840] I cump.
[00:05:02.080 --> 00:05:04.720] I did some camping at Comedy Festival.
[00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:05.920] I like camping.
[00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:07.120] I don't mind a bit of camping.
[00:05:07.200 --> 00:05:08.720] Nicolette enjoys camping.
[00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:09.600] We enjoy camping.
[00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:10.400] We did some camping.
[00:05:10.400 --> 00:05:10.960] We got there.
[00:05:11.440 --> 00:05:12.560] We were very prepared.
[00:05:13.760 --> 00:05:18.080] You do do the very middle-class version of camping where they have a fuck-off massive tent.
[00:05:18.080 --> 00:05:18.480] Big tent.
[00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:19.200] Massive tent.
[00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:23.520] Where they'll take, you know, a proper table so they can sit at the table to have a little bit of a table.
[00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:30.280] Well, we didn't have a little table, we did a little table, you know, a camping stove and a teapot so that they can all have sit and have a tea.
[00:05:30.280 --> 00:05:35.480] And like, you do the very middle class, but it's a very, you can stand up fully upright in their tent.
[00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:37.400] I can jump in our tent, I can literally jump.
[00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:38.840] I'm six foot one, I can jump in our tent.
[00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:42.920] You don't have a big double bed that you take your bed.
[00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:45.800] You don't sleep in sleeping bags, you take your bedding in a bed sheet.
[00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:47.560] That was the thing, you see.
[00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:51.720] On a couple of as we were driving, Nicola's like, I can't believe we brought this much stuff.
[00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:52.920] I said, of course, we brought this much stuff.
[00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:53.240] That's easy.
[00:05:53.400 --> 00:05:54.040] You always take that much stuff.
[00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:58.920] We unfurled our double airbed and started to pump it up.
[00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:05.560] And it was the single airbed that we bought the last time we went camping with Alice because Alice had a tent with us and Alice was in her little tent.
[00:06:05.640 --> 00:06:07.240] We got her a little single airbed.
[00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:08.680] So we didn't have a double airbed.
[00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:09.720] So we didn't have that.
[00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:13.880] So which was very much a Nicola's sleeping on an airbed and I'm sleeping on the floor arrangement.
[00:06:13.880 --> 00:06:14.760] And also as you were.
[00:06:14.840 --> 00:06:16.360] So you're camping and Nicola's not.
[00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:17.080] Yeah.
[00:06:17.400 --> 00:06:22.600] And as we were getting things together, I was saying, well, we'll just take the duo off the bed because we need to change the bed sheets.
[00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:25.080] Yeah, exactly.
[00:06:25.080 --> 00:06:26.680] I was like, we need to change the bed sheets anyway.
[00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:27.800] So we won't change this weekend.
[00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:30.040] We'll take the duvet down with us and we'll change it when we get back on it.
[00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:32.600] So like, no, I thought we'd just take our sleeping bags.
[00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:33.400] It's like, yeah, you sure.
[00:06:33.400 --> 00:06:35.160] She said, no, I don't want to take the duovi while we're down there.
[00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:37.000] So we didn't have the duvet either.
[00:06:37.320 --> 00:06:39.240] So first night, I'm sleeping on the floor.
[00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:43.720] I had to take like one of the blankets that we normally put on top of the airbed just to make it a bit more comfortable.
[00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:45.160] I had to put that folded up and sleeping.
[00:06:45.400 --> 00:06:48.840] We took a fucking mattress and a mattress topper.
[00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:58.040] It's actually like an old sleeping bag, like a sort of quilted, like a semi-thick sleeping bag that we sort of lay out as kind of a bottom sheet for our bed.
[00:06:58.040 --> 00:06:58.760] But I had to take that.
[00:06:58.760 --> 00:07:02.680] I had to fold that up so it was like still long enough for me to be on.
[00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:03.160] Yes.
[00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:08.920] And wide enough for me to be on and stay on, but also doubled over enough times that I was slightly off the ground.
[00:07:08.920 --> 00:07:10.760] That wasn't quite good enough.
[00:07:10.760 --> 00:07:14.480] So, on the second night, I took our tent carpet.
[00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:17.920] I folded that up.
[00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:19.360] So, okay, I was able to sleep on top of that.
[00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:26.480] But we were too cold because we didn't have our duvet, which means that Nicola had to go and buy some spare blankets the next day.
[00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:36.160] So, day two of us camping, we were at least on several layers of piled up material and had several layers of blankets on top of me.
[00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:40.240] It is less catastrophic than the time you went camping and forgot to take your tent pegs.
[00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:40.880] That is true.
[00:07:40.880 --> 00:07:41.440] That is true.
[00:07:41.440 --> 00:07:44.880] We did take the tent pegs, we did take the tent poles as well, which is fine.
[00:07:44.880 --> 00:07:55.680] As we got into our tent on the night, the first night, Nicola went to do the zip and somehow managed to open the tent without the zip, without moving the zip.
[00:07:55.680 --> 00:08:03.440] Just to don't know quite what happened, but you know, when a zip comes off one side of the zip, and then it kind of goes and it unzips all the way up.
[00:08:03.440 --> 00:08:04.640] Yes, did that.
[00:08:04.640 --> 00:08:11.280] And it's really hard to do to put the zip back on if the zip is and also if it's uh if it's stitched at both ends.
[00:08:11.280 --> 00:08:17.040] So, like when you do that to a jacket and it starts to pull up, you go, oh, I've got to now pull the zip all the way off and put it back on properly at the bottom.
[00:08:17.840 --> 00:08:22.960] You can't do that if it's only on one side and the zip is stitched at both ends.
[00:08:22.960 --> 00:08:26.240] So, we couldn't shut one half of our tent for this.
[00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:28.080] The same night, it was far too cold.
[00:08:28.080 --> 00:08:34.080] So, I had to like velcro it together and then take one part of it and tent peg it into the ground and hold it tall.
[00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:38.960] So, yeah, it was a characteristic disaster of a tenting expedition.
[00:08:39.040 --> 00:08:48.560] You say disaster, it sounds like your terrible disaster roughing it is just camping, which is what everyone else does, just where they're ordinarily camping.
[00:08:48.560 --> 00:08:57.760] If we analyze what went wrong and break it down, and bearing in mind, Nicola doesn't listen to the shore, in a lot of cases, it was like, Should we take a duvet?
[00:08:57.840 --> 00:08:59.280] No, let's not take a duvet.
[00:08:59.280 --> 00:09:00.680] Now we're too cold.
[00:09:00.680 --> 00:09:01.800] What happened to the tent?
[00:09:01.800 --> 00:09:03.080] Oh, I didn't open it properly.
[00:08:59.760 --> 00:09:05.320] Okay, I will jerry-rig it in a way that it will stay cold.
[00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:14.200] So it's a lot of Nicola adding an extra level of spice, an extra level of challenge to the tenting experience that I've got to overcome as a problem solver.
[00:09:17.880 --> 00:09:20.840] So the last few weeks have been a particularly challenging time in the UK.
[00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:36.840] We've not talked about it on the show yet, and we're not going to spend a long on it today because, quite frankly, I think our trans and non-binary listeners deserve some escape from the horrific amplification of discussion around whether they deserve basic human rights or not under the misguided view that giving rights to trans people somehow infringes on the rights of cis women.
[00:09:37.160 --> 00:09:49.480] There are loads of excellent resources on the details of the Supreme Court ruling created by the trans people who are most affected by the ruling and legal experts who are both challenging the ruling and figuring out the implications and how best to mitigate those implications.
[00:09:49.480 --> 00:09:52.840] Yeah, there's a lot of people rushing into what they think the implications are.
[00:09:52.840 --> 00:10:06.360] I mean, I saw that the Football Association has banned trans women from football at all levels while acknowledging that among the literally more than a million amateur players registered, there are fewer than 30 trans women involved.
[00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:14.040] So it's like, I'm glad that you've taken time out of your day to fuck those particular small number of people and say you are never allowed to play football again in any version.
[00:10:14.040 --> 00:10:23.720] Without, you know, making the big changes that need to be made throughout the football, top to bottom, to actually make women safe and well supported and well funded.
[00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:26.200] Yeah, there's no funding in women's football.
[00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:30.360] There's an epidemic of ACL injuries at the top level, which needs to be investigated in some way.
[00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:37.800] There's an epidemic of sexual abuse and various other power disappearance, but no, the important thing is those fewer than 30 people specifically.
[00:10:37.800 --> 00:10:43.080] And there have obviously been some excellent demonstrations of solidarity among members of the trans community and their allies.
[00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:55.360] I've been to two rallies in Liverpool myself, and I honestly couldn't be prouder of the eloquent men, women, and non-binary people who've spoken on this issue while experiencing what must feel like a direct attack on their humanity.
[00:10:55.680 --> 00:11:00.400] So far on this show, we've modelled our inclusivity by just being inclusive.
[00:11:00.400 --> 00:11:09.680] For example, obviously, I talk a lot about things that affect both people with anatomy traditionally associated with women and things that affect people who are femme presenting or femme perceived.
[00:11:09.680 --> 00:11:18.240] And I do my best to use language that best articulates the groups of people who are being targeted by the wellness industry, for example, in these areas without being clunky.
[00:11:18.560 --> 00:11:23.600] Hopefully, most of our listeners don't notice it because it's intended to blend in naturally as an unspoken position.
[00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:33.040] But I know that some of our trans and non-binary listeners notice and hopefully feel a little more recognized in our discussions, even when most of the research on a lot of these topics are actually predominantly in cis people.
[00:11:33.280 --> 00:11:36.880] We don't have the understanding when it comes to trans people.
[00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:48.320] When it comes to actually discussing the evidence of transness, though, the decision that I've held so far is that I choose not to talk about the evidence around that topic or biological sex because I genuinely believe it should not matter.
[00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:50.080] Trans and non-binary people exist.
[00:11:50.400 --> 00:11:51.920] I don't need evidence to prove that to me.
[00:11:51.920 --> 00:11:56.080] There are an entire group of people who are telling us their experience and how it impacts them.
[00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:58.560] I don't need science to respect another human being.
[00:11:58.560 --> 00:12:00.880] I don't need science to prove someone's experience.
[00:12:00.880 --> 00:12:08.160] A person's right to their human rights does not depend on the science of their experience and whether that science backs up their experience.
[00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:16.560] As far as I'm concerned, and speaking on behalf of all three of us, which I think you'll all agree with me, as far as skeptics with a K is concerned, people's human rights are not up for debate.
[00:12:16.560 --> 00:12:16.960] Yeah, exactly.
[00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:21.280] Shouldn't be a statement that he's making, but you know, that's kind of the position that we've taken.
[00:12:21.280 --> 00:12:32.440] And it's really challenging because we know that we have trans and non-binary listeners, and we know that when cis people talk about these topics, it can be the trans and non-binary people who are then exposed to harmful backlash.
[00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:37.720] I mean, we'll we get backlash as well, of course, but it's it's not attacking our personhood when we get that backlash.
[00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:41.560] It's at worst annoying to us, it's not existential to us.
[00:12:41.880 --> 00:12:46.200] We take our responsibility as creators seriously and we don't want to invite that harm to our audience.
[00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:53.960] So we've made a decision to be clear about our position without necessarily having those kind of salacious conversations about it too often.
[00:12:53.960 --> 00:13:00.920] But today I'm going to talk about some forms of gender-affirming care in the wellness world that are targeted at cis people specifically.
[00:13:00.920 --> 00:13:07.480] And given the climate that we're living in at the moment, and that obviously goes beyond the UK, I've seen some terrible things in other parts of the world recently as well.
[00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:13.320] I wanted to take this opportunity to offer an explicit preface to this piece: that we are trans-inclusionary.
[00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:18.840] QED is trans-inclusionary, the Mersai Skeptic Society is trans-inclusionary, the Skeptic Mag is trans-inclusionary.
[00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:24.360] And at the very least, that means that we respect and care about our trans and non-binary audience in all of those places.
[00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:30.200] We try to go beyond just care and respect because good intentions are never enough, but that's our absolute minimum.
[00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:35.720] And it should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway, we're inclusive of other groups too, including all women.
[00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:44.280] Yeah, and that scientific standard of, oh, you have to be able to prove that this side of it is not a scientific standard that people, at least these days, apply to like sexuality, for example.
[00:13:44.280 --> 00:13:49.080] There's no one saying, well, I don't believe gay people exist until you can show me scientifically how gay people exist.
[00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:53.560] And we recognize that when we did have those conversations, we were very wrong about that.
[00:13:53.560 --> 00:14:00.840] And when we go back to that standard, as many people are trying to push as the next wave of what we're currently experiencing, they'll be wrong about that too.
[00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:01.320] Yeah.
[00:14:01.640 --> 00:14:05.960] One group's rights should never come at the expense of another group's rights.
[00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:11.880] Sometimes that means we have to have challenging conversations to make sure that everyone is protected and that we're doing things the right way.
[00:14:11.880 --> 00:14:13.560] But I don't think that's what's happening here.
[00:14:13.560 --> 00:14:19.760] Right now, an incredibly marginalized group is being put at further risk of harm by decisions being made without their input.
[00:14:19.760 --> 00:14:22.320] And we need to come together and show our solidarity.
[00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.480] Not least because this is going to impact a lot more than just trans and non-binary folk.
[00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:31.680] So, with all that being said, I'm not talking specifically about trans issues today, but I am going to be talking about testosterone.
[00:14:31.680 --> 00:14:40.480] And I just wanted to take the opportunity to really just say that explicitly because I think the world that we live in today, it's important for us to make that explicit.
[00:14:40.640 --> 00:14:41.760] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:46.240] A few weeks ago, there were some adverts linked to our show from a company called Manual.
[00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:50.640] I love link to our show is a very euphemistic way of saying we broadcast some adverts.
[00:14:51.520 --> 00:14:52.480] Yeah, but we didn't choose them.
[00:14:52.880 --> 00:14:53.680] We didn't choose it.
[00:14:53.680 --> 00:14:57.920] But we did say if you pick out some adverts, if you hear adverts, we will pick them apart if they're bullshit.
[00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:01.600] And a lot of listeners wrote in to tell us about these adverts, which is great.
[00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:02.960] It's exactly what we want to see.
[00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:07.680] So, Manual's tagline on their website is men's health the way it should be.
[00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:12.560] They say that you can choose what to solve, and then they offer these options for solving.
[00:15:12.560 --> 00:15:17.920] You can solve your hair loss, your low testosterone, weight loss, hair transplant, and erectile dysfunction.
[00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:20.480] You can solve your weight loss.
[00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:23.760] I assume that's the solution they're offering you.
[00:15:23.760 --> 00:15:26.240] That's I didn't look into it.
[00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:30.800] I've particularly focused on the low testosterone section for this piece because it has become a very long piece.
[00:15:30.800 --> 00:15:34.320] But I did click through onto the weight loss one, and what they're offering is GLP1.
[00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:37.600] So, they are offering ZenPic.
[00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:41.440] And we've not touched on a Zenpic yet on the show.
[00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:45.120] We will touch on a Zenpic on the show at some point, definitely, but we haven't yet.
[00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:55.280] So, they say that their service is healthcare made easy and that they offer access to science-backed treatments and custom formulations proven to work based on research.
[00:15:55.600 --> 00:16:01.000] They also offer unlimited medical support via call, WhatsApp, or email completely for free.
[00:15:59.920 --> 00:16:06.360] Their about section says, We're challenging the outdated notion that real men shrug their shoulders and carry on.
[00:16:06.680 --> 00:16:12.680] And they say, By empowering men with all the information and choices they need to proactively own their well-being, we can turn a corner.
[00:16:12.680 --> 00:16:19.640] We're here to be your own personal manual, a guide to owning your health and happiness, giving you all the tools you need to be good to you.
[00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:21.880] Just on those few topics, obviously.
[00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:25.480] It is very much a we are empowering men to buy our product.
[00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:29.960] There are men out there who don't buy our product, but we're empowering them to be brave enough to do so.
[00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:33.880] And this is something that I've complained about before when it comes to the women's wellness industry.
[00:16:33.880 --> 00:16:46.360] And I have a whole talk about how systemic bias in society and medicine has led to the wellness industry offering women empowerment and selling them solutions to problems that social pressure and social media have created.
[00:16:46.680 --> 00:16:53.560] We've talked plenty about the social media context for women that makes them vulnerable to a wellness industry, offering them quick fixes that aren't evidence-based.
[00:16:53.560 --> 00:16:56.520] And we've even touched a little bit on the climate around masculinity.
[00:16:56.520 --> 00:17:00.040] In fact, we talked about it very recently when we talked about Joe Rogan's popularity.
[00:17:00.040 --> 00:17:07.640] And we've also touched on it when we're talking about influencers like Russell Brand and others in the masculinity space that have been selling supplementation for all sorts of things.
[00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:08.280] Yeah.
[00:17:08.600 --> 00:17:13.400] One thing I don't think we've touched on enough is the rise of the fitness influencer.
[00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:20.120] So, the fitness influencer is by no means new, but I think it's really ramping up even more in the last 12 to 18 months.
[00:17:20.120 --> 00:17:21.560] Yeah, and we're probably looking around.
[00:17:21.560 --> 00:17:26.680] We are not the target demographic of fitness influencers in the sense that we are not particularly fitness obsessed.
[00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:36.280] No, but my, if I go onto my For You page on Instagram, I now see almost exclusively fitness content coming up on that page.
[00:17:36.280 --> 00:17:59.200] And particularly, you'll get a lot of women for the women's influencer space, you'll get a three-image side-by-side of the cut phase, the maintenance phase, and the what do they call it, the bulk phase, and how you're supposed to be like calorie controlling in three different phases so that you can gain muscle in the right places and all of these things.
[00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:00.720] But it's constant.
[00:18:01.040 --> 00:18:06.160] And as you say, I'm not seeking out fitness or fitness content most of the time.
[00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:16.000] And I think it's especially interesting that it's ramping up so much over the last 12 to 18 months as we're currently kind of transitioning into a new body trend.
[00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:20.560] We go through trends of like body shape and body, what's in fashion when it comes to our bodies.
[00:18:20.560 --> 00:18:35.280] And we're definitely in a phase where we're transitioning from the body positivity, body neutrality kind of trend into now the skinny talk, losing a lot of weight, skinny is cool again, kind of phase.
[00:18:35.280 --> 00:18:48.720] It's really complicated to tease out any sort of directionality, but I think it's really highly linked that we've moved through those body positivity into body neutrality and now we're back into those really extreme trends, especially in the age of Azempic.
[00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:55.120] And yeah, as I say, skinny talk, which definitely will also cover on the show in the not too distant future.
[00:18:55.120 --> 00:18:58.160] But we also have a range, a wide range of fitness influencers.
[00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:04.400] Many are doing good work to try and challenge extreme body shape trends and support people in making healthy choices that work for their bodies and lifestyles.
[00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:12.400] But many more are sharing ways to build particular muscles in certain places and talking more and more about specific ways to enhance and exaggerate the body.
[00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:27.600] And we're seeing this in film as well as the idea of the kind of buff superhero has become even more extreme with actors sometimes undergoing quite extreme exercise plans, severe calorie control, and even severely dehydrating themselves on filming days to make sure that their muscles are looking extra defined.
[00:19:27.600 --> 00:19:28.240] It's so weird.
[00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:41.880] So, you see that, I saw something recently comparing Hugh Jackman as Wolverine in the first the first time he played Wolverine and how he looks now and what they expected his body to do for the later films is insane compared to the original version of him.
[00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:49.160] That particular example is just so stark because yeah, he's he looks like what people would call just a normal guy now.
[00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:53.000] But he was like a built guy the first time and now he's this ludicrous muscle machine thing.
[00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:54.040] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[00:19:54.040 --> 00:20:08.840] And it's something that Hugh Jackman has talked openly about about how absolutely shit he feels when they're shooting those kind of shirtless scenes where he has to dehydrate himself for 36 hours and you know, you say, I've got a rotten fucking headache.
[00:20:08.840 --> 00:20:09.720] I feel awful.
[00:20:09.880 --> 00:20:12.920] You know, we couldn't possibly do it for any length of time.
[00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:17.560] And that's quite common when you're filming is you put yourself, you know, you're in a flying harness and everything's digging in.
[00:20:17.560 --> 00:20:18.280] It fucking hurts.
[00:20:18.520 --> 00:20:21.400] You're cold and you're wet and you're wearing that costume in that weather.
[00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:27.960] And it's common in filming, but it's not a model for people on the street, which is how it's often being taken.
[00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:32.760] And I think even then it's different if it's the situation you're in or you're in this harness and this kind of stuff.
[00:20:32.760 --> 00:20:33.400] Okay, that's one thing.
[00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:43.560] But it seems like it's I think it's another thing where you've undergone this level of deprivation of something vital in order to achieve a certain look over a very short space of time.
[00:20:43.560 --> 00:20:49.400] That feels like an extra step more than, well, you need it to be in this position because that's what we need for the shot.
[00:20:49.400 --> 00:20:54.360] But you don't need to look that way for the shot, apart from just purely the taste at the time.
[00:20:54.360 --> 00:21:04.920] And I'm interested in how much that actually feeds into then those criticisms that we often see the kind of the anti-woke brigade who are like, oh, well, you know, historically, this isn't accurate.
[00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:09.960] You wouldn't have a black person in this part of London doing these kinds of jobs in those days.
[00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:20.800] And if we've also got people doing extreme things to make their bodies look a very particular way for the film, then you can see how that would feed expecting certain things.
[00:21:21.040 --> 00:21:24.240] You can't possibly suspend your disbelief and just go, do you know what?
[00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:24.800] It's a film.
[00:21:24.800 --> 00:21:25.680] I'm watching a film.
[00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:31.360] People, I don't expect my actors to be fainting because they haven't eaten in three days.
[00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:37.760] I also don't expect to have a predominantly white cast just because that's what it would have been historically in the area.
[00:21:37.760 --> 00:21:42.880] Yeah, and I also think there's this weird, kind of horribly toxic masculinity element of it.
[00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:57.600] That if the industry was still routinely putting, and I'm saying still because it's certainly used to, putting actresses through that level of extreme body modification, extreme deprivation of food and various things like that.
[00:21:57.600 --> 00:22:02.560] If that was such a heavy expectation, it would be a much more talked about issue.
[00:22:02.560 --> 00:22:09.840] And obviously, that was something that was happening offlook, especially in the early 2000s, actresses were basically starved skinny in order to fit a look.
[00:22:09.840 --> 00:22:13.760] And I think we feel like we've moved past that as a culture, at least to some degree.
[00:22:13.760 --> 00:22:17.840] We're possibly moving back in that direction with the rise of skinny talking as I'm picking everything.
[00:22:17.840 --> 00:22:19.040] But yeah, I take your point.
[00:22:19.040 --> 00:22:34.960] But we've sleepwalked into that for male actors, but it's not a topic of conversation because men have to just suck that up as a look how much, look how masculine I am, look how strong I am to be able to endure in these kind of ways things that should not be, you shouldn't be made to endure.
[00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:35.840] They're not reasonable.
[00:22:35.840 --> 00:22:40.880] And I think this is the world that the fitness influencer kind of men are existing within.
[00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:45.600] And you are now seeing these fitness influencer men who have been building muscle.
[00:22:45.840 --> 00:22:50.800] I saw this really interesting video recently of a guy who'd been doing committed gym plans for several years.
[00:22:50.800 --> 00:22:54.080] He's like, I've been working out, I've been building muscle for five years.
[00:22:54.080 --> 00:22:58.880] And I get comments in my videos that I've got a dad bod.
[00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:01.560] He's like, look at the size of my bicep.
[00:22:59.760 --> 00:23:03.240] Like, this is not a dad bod.
[00:23:03.560 --> 00:23:20.280] This is just a muscular physique for a normal man who isn't extremely reducing their fat level so that you can see all the definition, who isn't, you know, dehydrating so that you can see all the definition, and is just a normal guy who's built.
[00:23:20.280 --> 00:23:21.960] But a normal guy who's doing quite a lot of work.
[00:23:22.120 --> 00:23:24.840] Doing a lot of working out and is like dedicated to it.
[00:23:25.080 --> 00:23:26.200] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:38.600] But this is kind of not what people are expecting to see on the fitness influencer space because, I mean, I looked, I specifically signed up for TikTok so that I could see search for specifically testosterone on TikTok.
[00:23:38.600 --> 00:23:49.160] And the videos that came up were just such extreme modified bodies with the really extremely large muscles, but the very extreme definition as well.
[00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:54.200] Just pages and pages and pages of videos like that from different creators.
[00:23:54.520 --> 00:24:01.000] So our perception of what appears masculine has shifted quite extremely in the last few years.
[00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:07.800] And exposure to particular physical ideals has shifted quite extremely as social media becomes more and more dominant.
[00:24:07.800 --> 00:24:11.560] And we already know that men can suffer in silence when it comes to their mental health.
[00:24:11.560 --> 00:24:28.520] We know that men can be susceptible to eating disorders and that when they are suffering with eating disorders, they don't get access to treatment that they need, partly because of societal assumptions that it doesn't affect men, but also because they're putting pressure on themselves to cope in silence with something that they might consider emasculating or feminine.
[00:24:28.840 --> 00:24:38.680] The body positivity and body neutrality movements are less likely to reach communities of men who are struggling with their body image because of societal expectations and social media.
[00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:42.280] That's just not reached that particular part of the world.
[00:24:42.280 --> 00:24:51.280] And while disordered eating can be one misguided way to address body image issues, it's also clear that there are plenty of wellness companies who are keen to capitalize on those insecurities too.
[00:24:51.280 --> 00:24:55.040] Which is not to say that manual is deliberately capitalizing on insecurities.
[00:24:55.040 --> 00:24:58.000] They claim to be empowering men to proactively own their well-being.
[00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:00.800] And who am I to question their specific intention?
[00:25:00.800 --> 00:25:02.480] Yeah, on this shore.
[00:25:03.040 --> 00:25:07.360] Questioning the specific intention of a hormone testing company is something you're not going to do on this shore.
[00:25:08.080 --> 00:25:09.040] Not again.
[00:25:09.760 --> 00:25:21.520] But I will question what good it does to the mindset to tell men or women or non-binary folks that the issues they're struggling with when it comes to their own health is something they should proactively own.
[00:25:21.520 --> 00:25:35.520] I mean, yes, it's important to feel empowered when it comes to healthcare, to feel able to make autonomous decisions about the treatment we get, but we also know that sometimes piling on more and more pressure onto the individual only papers over the cracks when it comes to healthcare.
[00:25:35.520 --> 00:25:42.160] We know that we have some systemic problems that we need to address, and the solution is not to have individuals do everything for themselves.
[00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:51.200] All people should have access to the medical treatments they need, but it's hard to separate needed treatments to treatment needs which are somewhat manufactured.
[00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:53.280] So, for example, testosterone.
[00:25:53.280 --> 00:25:59.440] Plenty of people in the fitness community will make claims about testosterone boosting and muscle size and definition.
[00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:06.960] And searching for testosterone boost on TikTok reveals some videos of men showing off extremely exaggerated muscles.
[00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:13.760] It also has lots of videos from men telling you how to boost your testosterone, including eating raw onion, spending time in the study.
[00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:15.280] Eating raw onion.
[00:26:15.280 --> 00:26:16.720] It's always raw onion, isn't it?
[00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:17.120] Yeah.
[00:26:17.120 --> 00:26:17.640] At least it's you.
[00:26:17.800 --> 00:26:19.280] Put it in your sock to cure your cold.
[00:26:19.360 --> 00:26:20.160] I was going to say, yeah.
[00:26:20.800 --> 00:26:22.800] Eat it raw to boost your testosterone.
[00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:30.120] So if you have a cold and low testosterone and you only have access to one onion, can you do both?
[00:26:29.600 --> 00:26:34.120] Or will it not help your testosterone if you eat an onion that's been on your feet a long time?
[00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:41.880] It's better if you cook it and get rid of any bacteria or yeasty fungal infections.
[00:26:43.320 --> 00:26:47.480] Or spending time in the sun apparently increases your testosterone or exercising.
[00:26:47.480 --> 00:27:00.120] There are also all sorts of videos claiming that if you're tired, have low energy, don't wake with an erection each morning and or have low libido, then you probably have low testosterone because it's really common, according to TikTok.
[00:27:00.120 --> 00:27:14.040] There's even something doing the rounds on TikTok at the moment, in fact, claiming that young men are taking Plan B emergency contraception in order to crash their testosterone so they test low when they see their doctors and can get testosterone prescribed.
[00:27:14.040 --> 00:27:20.120] Is that a real thing that's happening or just one of the things that goes around on TikTok like, oh, this is happening everywhere, but there's no examples of it anywhere?
[00:27:20.120 --> 00:27:30.920] So I struggled, and this is why I ended up signing up for TikTok again, was because I'm fucking struggling to find stuff on Google at the minute because Google search function is becoming completely useless.
[00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:42.040] And I was like, okay, so I'm just going to go straight to the source and try and search there because I couldn't find anything in Google, anything in Google News using any of my kind of normal search terms, but that could just be because Google's shite at the moment.
[00:27:42.040 --> 00:27:55.320] Yeah, because Google will just show you, here's a massive AI generated box, then here's a few videos that may or may not be anyway related, then here's a list of six dropdowns of things people might have also asked about the vague area that you're interested in, and then here's the top five hits from Reddit.
[00:27:55.320 --> 00:28:01.160] I was saying I've got nothing, nowhere yet have I hit anything of anyone with a fucking clue what is going on.
[00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:09.240] I was saying to Warren the other day that it's like having a conversation with his mum sometimes because she just pings off into vaguely related things and it just keeps bringing vague.
[00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:10.200] It's like, did you mean this?
[00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:11.160] No, I didn't mean this.
[00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:12.120] I told you what I meant.
[00:28:12.120 --> 00:28:13.240] I used these keywords.
[00:28:13.560 --> 00:28:17.280] Specific thing I asked for, please, not what people reckon off of Reddit.
[00:28:18.560 --> 00:28:22.880] But as far as I can, I'm really struggling to find any evidence really that it's happening.
[00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:36.240] There's a few videos of people sharing one particular, or like two primary sources of people claiming that they've done it, but even those primary sources are people like there's a guy in a doctor's office wearing a mask saying that he's done it.
[00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:41.360] But reminds you of the isolologies in the vagina third.
[00:28:41.840 --> 00:28:49.280] It's just it's a quirky thing that'll get you some clicks, but it probably isn't actually like a typo, at least not on any widespread basis.
[00:28:49.600 --> 00:28:55.120] But so I'm seeing far more videos highlighting it as a dangerous practice than I am people claiming that it's worth attempting.
[00:28:55.120 --> 00:29:11.200] So I think it is a manufactured thing, but obviously with any of these manufactured things, there's the risk that the trend comes because of people creating the trend, especially because labenogesterol, which is the contraceptive in Plan B, would reduce your testosterone levels.
[00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:13.440] That's not a recommendation to take it for anybody.
[00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:15.920] There are better ways to reduce your testosterone levels.
[00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:25.920] There are even better ways to DIY reduce your testosterone levels if you're struggling to get access to testosterone blockers, but it would technically work.
[00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:27.280] Not safely.
[00:29:27.280 --> 00:29:29.360] So how does manual work?
[00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:31.600] That depends on the treatment option you select.
[00:29:31.600 --> 00:29:35.280] So they offer a range and we'll focus on the low testosterone.
[00:29:35.280 --> 00:29:47.280] So they sell two kit options: the initial test for low testosterone diagnosis, where they say join 30,000 men and take the first step to treating low testosterone by ordering this diagnostic test.
[00:29:47.280 --> 00:29:53.520] This quick finger prick blood test taken in the comfort of your own home will give you readings for your total and free testosterone.
[00:29:53.520 --> 00:30:00.040] Take the first step in determining if you are eligible for TRT treatment, so testosterone replacement therapy.
[00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:06.920] They say that they tested four biomarkers: total testosterone, free testosterone, albumin, and sex hormone binding globulin.
[00:30:07.240 --> 00:30:14.360] The kit is £55, but they say that you save 40% on your first order, so it's just £33.95.
[00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:17.240] Under the heading that they say, who is this test for?
[00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:25.640] They say that one in four men over the age of 30 may have abnormally low testosterone levels with symptoms that can be far reaching and take the joy of life.
[00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:29.320] Our at-home testosterone blood test helps you discover whether you are suffering from low testosterone.
[00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:34.520] This is the first step in determining if you're eligible for treatment with testosterone replacement therapy.
[00:30:34.520 --> 00:30:37.000] So one in four may have that.
[00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:41.720] So what they're saying is, well, it's just, we know that three in four definitely don't need our product.
[00:30:42.040 --> 00:30:43.800] One in four, you may.
[00:30:44.520 --> 00:30:46.440] That's not saying one in four do.
[00:30:46.760 --> 00:30:54.120] After you've done the initial test kit, they then offer the enhanced testosterone blood test, which they say is to confirm your initial diagnosis for low testosterone.
[00:30:54.120 --> 00:31:02.280] So this is a comprehensive venous blood test, they say, and it's needed to confirm your testosterone levels and to assess your suitability for testosterone replacement therapy.
[00:31:02.280 --> 00:31:09.160] It costs a minimum of £49.95, which is the basic kit, but you need to find somebody to take your blood sample.
[00:31:09.400 --> 00:31:13.560] It just gives you those purple topped tubes that you get given bloods.
[00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:22.120] Otherwise, you can pay £79.95 if you want to go to one of their partner clinics for a nurse to take the sample or £119.95 for the nurse to come to your home.
[00:31:22.120 --> 00:31:28.520] This test tests for a bunch of things relating to hormone levels, but also general health markers like liver and kidney function and cholesterol.
[00:31:28.520 --> 00:31:33.480] And if you're confirmed to have low testosterone, you then speak to a specialist for £79.95.
[00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:35.640] And if they agree, you can start testosterone treatment.
[00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:46.400] Then you're looking at £99 a month for oral treatment, £99 to £169 for injectable treatments per month, and £129 to £159 for topical treatments per month.
[00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:57.280] So that's around £215 to get to the prescription point, and then between £1,188 and £1,900 plus pounds per year.
[00:31:57.600 --> 00:32:00.560] And so the thing is, that's a lot of money.
[00:32:00.560 --> 00:32:14.960] But also, if you had very clear symptoms and you were frustrated that you were in a massive queue, that you just weren't getting referrals, but you were fairly confident because so many other things were very clear markers, it's not a lot of money to get a diagnosis.
[00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:25.520] But the problem then, they're not targeting the people who are so heavily clear, like they're pretty solidly sure that they've got an issue and they're just struggling to get the referral.
[00:32:25.520 --> 00:32:26.720] They're targeting everyone.
[00:32:26.800 --> 00:32:27.440] Precisely.
[00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:29.440] They're targeting one in four men at least.
[00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:30.800] Yeah, exactly.
[00:32:30.800 --> 00:32:40.560] And it does sound that manual are doing a thorough investigation before prescribing testosterone, that they're going through the process reasonably and that you get to see specialists in this area.
[00:32:40.560 --> 00:32:47.600] The challenging thing, as you say, is whether all the people who might use the manual system need to be treated for low testosterone.
[00:32:47.600 --> 00:32:54.240] As with anything that fluctuates between individuals, it's not as simple as having a threshold at which we say you have low levels, you need treatment.
[00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:58.720] We don't treat everybody who has low testosterone because they might not have any symptoms of low testosterone.
[00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:06.560] Their bodies might be naturally more equipped to manage with the naturally lower levels of testosterone and have absolutely no symptoms.
[00:33:06.560 --> 00:33:11.040] No treatment comes without risk, so we should be cautious of taking treatments that aren't needed.
[00:33:11.040 --> 00:33:15.360] If you've got low testosterone but no other symptoms, you're probably doing all right.
[00:33:15.360 --> 00:33:17.200] Yeah, and I could, I mean, I don't know.
[00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:19.440] You've looked into Manuals, so I don't know anything about them.
[00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:26.640] I could certainly see there is a smart business model that would be along the lines of, imagine we don't think that gauss exist, right?
[00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:28.480] As a podcast, we don't think that gauss exists.
[00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:43.880] If we were able to sell a ghost testing experience, a ghost testing kit to people, and we said, oh, and if you do find that you have a ghost, we will support you in your exorcism where we will go through this long, lengthy, expensive procedure.
[00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:50.520] We'd be hoping lots of people take the test and none of them have a ghost because that would be the maximum thing for us.
[00:33:50.520 --> 00:33:54.040] Because then we're just selling units and never having to worry about any of the follow-up.
[00:33:54.040 --> 00:33:56.680] That's the maximum way for us to get return on investment there.
[00:33:56.680 --> 00:34:03.560] The worst case scenario for us is that someone would find a ghost and we have to spend a lot of money then efficiently trying to get rid of their ghost.
[00:34:03.560 --> 00:34:08.200] But a load of people testing for ghosts who don't have ghosts would be a really good way for us to make a return.
[00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:09.400] It would be.
[00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:16.200] I think this is certainly a different business model because low testosterone is relatively common.
[00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:23.720] It's not an uncommon thing and it might well cause symptoms in some men and treatment would be beneficial for those men.
[00:34:23.720 --> 00:34:24.200] Yeah.
[00:34:24.200 --> 00:34:24.920] So in those...
[00:34:25.160 --> 00:34:28.520] I couldn't quickly think of an analogy that wasn't as ridiculous as ghost.
[00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:31.880] It happens, but not as often as all that, yeah.
[00:34:32.200 --> 00:34:43.480] I don't know whether they're making good money on the consultations and the prescriptions and whether that's, you know, it's more financially valuable for them to not treat than to treat.
[00:34:43.480 --> 00:34:47.000] But if you compare that to, say, the hair testing people, right?
[00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:52.840] Where you send off a sample of your hair and immediately they come back and say, oh, actually, there's all these things wrong with you.
[00:34:52.840 --> 00:34:55.800] And what you need is to buy this and this and this and this and this off us.
[00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:57.400] And manual doesn't sound like they're doing that.
[00:34:57.400 --> 00:35:02.360] They're saying, okay, and then we'll do a confirmatory test just to make sure because it might have just been a bad day for you.
[00:35:02.360 --> 00:35:05.600] And then we'll see if we can ask a specialist for a specialist to talk about it.
[00:35:05.600 --> 00:35:08.360] Because if you're not symptomatic, then there might not be a problem.
[00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:12.520] It sounds like they're doing a little bit more work than the outright scams.
[00:35:12.680 --> 00:35:13.080] Oh, yeah, yeah.
[00:35:13.400 --> 00:35:14.800] I'm not accused of being outright scammed.
[00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:15.360] It'd be absolutely useful.
[00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:28.960] I think it probably is, as you say, in that small percentage of cases where you're almost certain, or maybe you've even spoken to a GP who said it's likely, but you're kind of threshold.
[00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:29.360] Yeah.
[00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:38.960] For those people, it might well be a reasonable route to get to treatment, an expensive route to get to treatment, but a reasonable route to get to treatment if you're struggling to get through the healthcare system.
[00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:46.640] But there are obviously greater issues with blanket screening, which we've talked about before and I'm going to come on to again in a minute.
[00:35:46.640 --> 00:35:54.320] So, testosterone treatment can obviously be useful for patients who have male hypogonadism, which is a clinical syndrome.
[00:35:54.320 --> 00:36:06.640] So, the British Journal of General Practice describes it as a clinical syndrome characterized by testosterone deficiency and impaired spermatogenesis due to either diseases of the hypothalamus or pituitary gland or the testes themselves.
[00:36:06.640 --> 00:36:14.960] So, testosterone is produced by the testes, you can have an issue there, or you can have an issue with the parts of the brain that trigger that production of testosterone.
[00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:30.480] So, diagnosis requires a clinical measurement of low testosterone and the presence of clinical features such as reduced libido, erectile dysfunction, and loss of waking erections, anemia, osteoporosis, and vasomotor sweating or flushing.
[00:36:30.640 --> 00:36:38.960] Men can also experience symptoms such as fatigue, loss of motivational concentration, irritability, low or labile mood, body image concerns.
[00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:47.840] So, there's a whole range of symptoms that might be something, and all of these symptoms are things that you could be experiencing for other reasons.
[00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:52.880] We know that kind of mental health issues might cause issues with libido and erectile dysfunction.
[00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:57.440] We know that other health conditions can cause anemia and osteoporosis.
[00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:05.320] We know that fatigue and low motivation are irritability are all kind of things that people might encounter, especially in the climate that we currently live in.
[00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:12.440] And add in body image concerns as well, of course, like these are symptoms that could be a symptom of something else.
[00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:22.040] So the ideal scenario is you notice that you have some symptoms, you speak to a doctor, you're taken seriously by that doctor, which isn't a given.
[00:37:22.040 --> 00:37:25.800] You have tests to confirm or rule out various causes.
[00:37:25.800 --> 00:37:31.960] You might continue exploration until the cause of best fit is found, and then you undergo treatment.
[00:37:31.960 --> 00:37:46.360] And that might take you to going to your GP and saying that I've got, you know, low mood, fatigue, erectile dysfunction, loss of morning erections, and your GP goes, oh, okay, that last one, that's quite common with low testosterone.
[00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:51.240] We'll test you for low testosterone and maybe get treated for low testosterone.
[00:37:51.240 --> 00:37:55.160] But it might be, oh, all of those symptoms are potentially symptoms of low testosterone.
[00:37:55.160 --> 00:37:56.360] We test for low testosterone.
[00:37:56.360 --> 00:37:57.800] You don't have low testosterone.
[00:37:57.800 --> 00:38:01.960] Let's go and find some other things that might cause those symptoms.
[00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:05.560] Of course, there are loads of ways that that ideal scenario goes wrong.
[00:38:05.560 --> 00:38:18.040] People with symptoms of chronic ill health who have symptoms like fatigue, irritability, body image concerns, perhaps weight gain, which can be associated with low testosterone, might be dismissed or misdiagnosed, or offered unhelpful advice like lose weight and then we'll talk.
[00:38:18.040 --> 00:38:21.560] Or men are given the impression that they should suck it up because it's not a big deal.
[00:38:21.560 --> 00:38:27.320] I'm sure there are men that would benefit from testosterone replacement therapy who are not getting access to that therapy.
[00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:32.040] But my concern here is that social media is talking about testosterone all the time.
[00:38:32.040 --> 00:38:36.440] People are being pushed into believing that their problems are caused by low testosterone.
[00:38:36.440 --> 00:38:52.240] In fact, an article in the British Journal of General Practice said in 2020: over recent years, there has been a surge in testosterone prescriptions for men with sexual dysfunction or putative age-related decline in testosterone, possibly reflecting pharmaceutical promotion or sharing of misleading information on the internet.
[00:38:52.480 --> 00:39:00.160] With growing demands and expectations of men worrying about their well-being, there is a real risk of overdiagnosis and unnecessary treatment with testosterone.
[00:39:00.160 --> 00:39:03.760] And I suspect that this issue has only multiplied in the last five years.
[00:39:04.080 --> 00:39:12.080] And overdiagnosis or misdiagnosis is especially an issue if it means you're missing your true diagnosis, which could be something serious.
[00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:21.600] And even if it's not serious, if it's causing you those symptoms and it's something that can be treated, you don't want to live with those symptoms that are affecting your life.
[00:39:21.600 --> 00:39:25.120] Especially as testosterone replacement therapy is not side effect-free.
[00:39:25.120 --> 00:39:25.920] No, exactly.
[00:39:26.080 --> 00:39:31.280] And it can cause heart issues in people who are taking that treatment.
[00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:35.520] This is part of the issue with providers such as Manuel.
[00:39:35.520 --> 00:39:38.240] If you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
[00:39:38.240 --> 00:39:42.640] When you take the testosterone test, you've already put yourself on a specific pathway.
[00:39:42.640 --> 00:39:47.680] You've biased the direction towards a result that the cause of your symptoms is low testosterone.
[00:39:47.680 --> 00:39:54.080] Then when you get your test results back to say that your testosterone is low, you're sent to speak to one of Manual's testosterone specialists.
[00:39:54.080 --> 00:39:58.160] But those specialists are already primed to be looking for symptoms of low testosterone.
[00:39:58.160 --> 00:40:12.000] And I don't doubt that they're highly qualified experts, but it's easy to get into a pattern of seeing patients day in and day out with symptoms of low testosterone and make unconscious assumptions, which might mean that some people are missing out on a diagnosis that's actually meaningful for them.
[00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:25.200] This feeds into similar concerns we've discussed about overscreening and health anxiety that can be contributed to by at-home testing kit industry, by the at-home testing kit industry, and in my opinion, is not adequately regulated.
[00:40:25.200 --> 00:40:29.360] It's not about any one single company, it's about a climate where this has become the norm.
[00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:33.560] We're too busy to prioritize our health, it's hard to get an appointment with a GP.
[00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:37.000] Maybe it's embarrassing to talk about changes to our libido or morning erections.
[00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:40.440] Maybe we've been dismissed by a doctor before and we're scared of it happening again.
[00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:45.400] But now you can just send off for a test kit and get everything you think you need delivered to your door.
[00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:52.840] You can take ownership without actually taking ownership because you're not actually going and speaking to a medical professional, you're just sending off for a kit.
[00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:55.560] And that can be incredibly seductive.
[00:40:55.560 --> 00:41:04.920] I don't like to end these stories by just saying speak to a doctor if you think you have symptoms that require treatment, because I know it's not that easy for everyone, even in the UK, where healthcare is free at the point of use.
[00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:13.720] It's why I made a glib comment about DIY testosterone blockers before, because for some people, it's difficult to get access to the treatments that they need.
[00:41:13.720 --> 00:41:23.880] But I will say, be cautious of people offering immediate answers to complicated issues and quick fixes where they're starting with the answer and not curiosity about the patient.
[00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:30.200] Empowering the individual should be about centering the individual, not starting with the solution and moving backwards.
[00:41:34.360 --> 00:41:40.680] So, in the last few days, the tickets for the final ever QED have just been put on sale.
[00:41:40.680 --> 00:41:47.800] QED is taking place this year on the 25th and 26th of October in the Mercury Or Piccadilly Hotel in central Manchester.
[00:41:47.800 --> 00:41:54.280] Free skeptic camp, as per usual, on the 24th, Friday, October the 24th, and that's going to be a fantastic time as well.
[00:41:54.280 --> 00:41:59.080] But we've also launched our initial lineup of guest speakers for QED as well.
[00:41:59.080 --> 00:42:02.120] So, the first one we've got to announced is Annie Kelly.
[00:42:02.120 --> 00:42:04.440] Yes, people will, I'm sure, know Annie Kelly.
[00:42:04.440 --> 00:42:10.120] She's the UK correspondent for the QAnon Anonymous podcast, now called the QAA podcast.
[00:42:10.120 --> 00:42:16.560] She researches on extremism, the far-right, manosphere, anti-feminism kind of areas.
[00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:17.840] So she's going to be right about.
[00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:23.280] So I've really wanted to see Annie speak for some time and just haven't quite been able to make it work.
[00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:25.920] So I'm really excited to have her come and speak to QED.
[00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:32.480] And I think she'll, if people do listen to QAA, I think they'll recognize that she's got a good sense of things.
[00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:34.400] I think she's a really entertaining kind of person as well.
[00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:36.720] So yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing that one.
[00:42:36.720 --> 00:42:41.520] We also have, and I know this is someone that you're especially enthusiastic about, Alice, is Anna Poshaiski.
[00:42:41.520 --> 00:42:44.240] Yes, I'm really excited to have Anna Poschaiski speak.
[00:42:44.240 --> 00:42:51.520] So she is, she's a science communicator and comedian who I know through like my, or know of through my work.
[00:42:51.520 --> 00:42:57.040] She does stuff with the in the reproducibility world that I work in.
[00:42:57.040 --> 00:43:04.640] But she's just a very enthusiastic science communicator who finds the interesting and exciting stuff about science to share.
[00:43:04.640 --> 00:43:10.080] So she's a material scientist by training, but like she's going to say some really exciting and interesting things.
[00:43:10.080 --> 00:43:18.480] I kind of have her in the like Helen Shirsky space of like just being really passionate about science and knowing how to make that interesting to other people.
[00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:36.720] We also have just announced Naomi Ryan, who is a criminal and public law barrister, but who has a particular interest in kind of macabre case, but also especially around paranormal cases, which is when we saw that as a speaker, we were like, that's bang in the intersection of where we want to be with QED.
[00:43:36.720 --> 00:43:49.360] Yeah, we're always looking to put things like the paranormal and supernatural on stage at QED, and that can be quite difficult to do because there's not always a huge number of people who are like, who are talking about that these days when there's so many other kind of things that people are focusing on.
[00:43:49.360 --> 00:44:02.200] But I think her angle on it is really interesting, which is the where in the in sort of British court case law has belief in the supernatural and paranormal actually affected people's lives in court cases and legal cases.
[00:44:02.200 --> 00:44:04.040] I think it's a really interesting angle.
[00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:05.240] And that's going to be brilliant.
[00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:11.480] And one more speaker that we've got to talk about today, and I fancy I can pronounce this correctly, Michael Marshall.
[00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:15.000] Yeah, I've not spoken to QED for quite a few years.
[00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:18.120] I think the last time I spoke at QED on the main stage, I did my Flat Earth talk.
[00:44:18.120 --> 00:44:19.880] So that would have been about 2018.
[00:44:22.680 --> 00:44:24.280] Last chance to do QED.
[00:44:24.280 --> 00:44:26.680] And there's an investigation I've been hinting at for a while.
[00:44:26.680 --> 00:44:28.280] I hinted at it quite a bit last year.
[00:44:28.280 --> 00:44:32.120] And I was intending to have been talking about on the show.
[00:44:32.120 --> 00:44:34.360] And I've had to keep pushing it back for various different reasons.
[00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:41.960] But there's an investigation I spent some time on throughout 2024 that I'm really keen to be able to share with an audience.
[00:44:41.960 --> 00:44:44.920] I've given a talk about it for Mercedes Skeptic Society.
[00:44:45.240 --> 00:44:51.000] I'm giving a talk on the 27th of May, actually, for the Plymouth Humanists, which should be good.
[00:44:51.000 --> 00:44:56.200] If anyone's in the Plymouth area, by all means, look that up and come and see me and get a sneak preview of what I'm talking about at QED.
[00:44:56.200 --> 00:44:59.880] So yeah, looking forward to giving that for the last ever QED.
[00:44:59.880 --> 00:45:01.560] And I'll be there on stage talking about that.
[00:45:01.720 --> 00:45:03.320] Farmer's stuff that you don't know about yet.
[00:45:03.320 --> 00:45:06.920] And listeners, I've seen that talk, and it's a genuinely fascinating piece of research.
[00:45:06.920 --> 00:45:10.600] And you will be missing out if you do not come to QED and see it.
[00:45:10.600 --> 00:45:14.120] One last name to mention as well is our MC.
[00:45:14.120 --> 00:45:19.320] So for the MC for QED, we like to kind of rove it around and have various different people come back for MCs.
[00:45:19.320 --> 00:45:22.360] And it was tempting this year to say, do we go back to one of our old MCs?
[00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:25.160] Because it's our last QED.
[00:45:25.560 --> 00:45:27.880] Do we kind of do a part retro, part looking to the future?
[00:45:27.960 --> 00:45:29.080] I've taken Andy Wilson.
[00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:31.400] We could have brought Andy Wilson back.
[00:45:31.640 --> 00:45:33.480] That was very much on the table.
[00:45:33.480 --> 00:45:40.520] But instead, and quite fantastically, and how we've managed to do QED for this long without having this person MC is astonishing.
[00:45:40.680 --> 00:45:43.800] We will have Robin Ince will be MCing the final QED.
[00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:44.800] And it's about fucking time.
[00:45:44.520 --> 00:45:46.160] It's about time, yeah.
[00:45:46.240 --> 00:45:53.280] It's we instead of going to someone who has MC'd QED before, we've gone to someone who absolutely should have MC'd QED before.
[00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:57.760] But and it's just in a way that we haven't quite been able to make diaries match up it in the past.
[00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:00.160] He's a very busy man, he's a very busy man.
[00:46:00.160 --> 00:46:06.320] He does a lot of things, he says a lot of things, he talks an awful lot in lots of different places, and he's gonna be doing a lot of that for us.
[00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:08.480] So, tickets for QED are available now.
[00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:19.360] They are £179, which gets you access to the full weekend, gets you across all the event spaces, including the Saturday night entertainment, gets you access to all the workshops, all the panels, all the live podcast sessions, etc.
[00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:22.080] There is one additional bonus you can get, which is the dinner.
[00:46:22.080 --> 00:46:23.360] Probably sold out by now, to be honest.
[00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:24.320] I imagine so.
[00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:26.080] How long the ticket's been on sale at this point?
[00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:27.840] Uh, 48 hours-ish.
[00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:29.600] There'll be almost none.
[00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:37.520] If there's any left, it's gonna be very, very lucky listeners, you might be able to sneak in for a gull of dinner ticket, but almost always they've gone by this point.
[00:46:37.520 --> 00:46:41.280] So, yes, you can find more information about that at qedcon.org.
[00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:43.280] And yeah, it will be fantastic to see you there.
[00:46:43.280 --> 00:46:45.280] It is your last chance.
[00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:48.400] All that remains then is for me to thank Marsh for coming along today.
[00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:48.960] Cheers.
[00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:50.000] Thank you to Alice.
[00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:50.480] Thank you.
[00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:53.280] We have been Skeptics with a K, and we will see you next time.
[00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:54.000] Bye now.
[00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:54.960] Bye.
[00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:04.880] Skeptics with a K is produced by Skeptic Media in association with the Merseyside Skeptic Society.
[00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:14.080] For questions or comments, email podcast at skepticswithakay.org, and you can find out more about Merseyside Skeptics at merseysideskeptics.org.uk.