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[00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:07.360] Look, payday is awesome, but running payroll, calculating taxes and deductions, staying compliant, that's not easy.
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[00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:28.320] We love it so much, we really do use it ourselves.
[00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:34.720] And we have four years, and I personally recommend you give it a try, no matter how small your business is.
[00:00:34.720 --> 00:00:38.880] And to sweeten the deal, just for listening today, you also get three months free.
[00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:41.360] Go to gusto.com/slash beingboss.
[00:00:41.360 --> 00:00:45.200] That's gusto.com/slash beingboss.
[00:00:46.800 --> 00:00:53.760] Welcome to Being Boss, a podcast for creatives, business owners, and entrepreneurs who want to take control of their work and live life on their own terms.
[00:00:53.760 --> 00:01:09.280] I'm your host, Emily Thompson, and in this episode, I'm joined by my friend Kathleen Shannon to dive into what's up in the podcasting industry, sharing how this space has changed over the past almost decade and how it's played into the changes coming here to Being Boss.
[00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:14.720] You can find all the tools, books, and links we reference on the show notes at www.beingboss.club.
[00:01:14.720 --> 00:01:19.440] And if you like this episode, be sure to subscribe to the show and share us with a friend.
[00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:26.160] Kathleen Shannon is the co-founder and former co-host of the Being Boss podcast.
[00:01:26.160 --> 00:01:32.160] Joining me here for the first 240-ish episodes of this show with several one-off episodes since.
[00:01:32.160 --> 00:01:39.680] Kathleen is a partner and creative director of Braid Creative, a branding agency she founded with her sister over 10 years ago.
[00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:48.400] Kathleen has always lived by capturing, shaping, and sharing who she is, whether that's with a blog post, a podcast, or on social media.
[00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:56.400] You know, I used to think that those bald lip bombs meant that like you were hot shit.
[00:01:56.400 --> 00:01:57.200] Oh, yeah?
[00:01:57.200 --> 00:01:57.840] Yeah.
[00:01:58.160 --> 00:01:59.680] As I'm putting one on right now.
[00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:00.680] I know.
[00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:05.960] As I hit record, I realized I needed to moisturize my lips a little bit and we got tickled and here we are.
[00:02:06.280 --> 00:02:11.080] But now that I'm older, it just seems inefficient.
[00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:11.640] It is.
[00:02:11.640 --> 00:02:14.440] And it's like maybe a little gross.
[00:02:14.440 --> 00:02:15.080] Yeah.
[00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:16.280] You know, I know.
[00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:21.400] I got this one at the holiday, like across the street from my office here is Walgreens.
[00:02:21.720 --> 00:02:27.480] And it was like a fun, like little peppermint like holiday one.
[00:02:27.480 --> 00:02:30.680] And I was, I went over there specifically for some lip balm.
[00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:36.360] I could not find any except for two little peppermint balls, basically.
[00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:39.800] And it sits here on my desk and it kind of grosses me out, but I need it.
[00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:41.240] So here I am.
[00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:44.360] The very best lip balm.
[00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:47.720] This is this podcast is turning into a beauty podcast.
[00:02:47.720 --> 00:02:49.320] Let me tell you all the things.
[00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:51.480] I got the secret.
[00:02:51.640 --> 00:02:53.480] Here's the secret.
[00:02:54.440 --> 00:02:59.240] I'm holding Beatbox hostage and I'm turning it into a beauty podcast.
[00:03:00.040 --> 00:03:01.240] Aquaphor.
[00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:07.800] You can use just like regular Aquaphor on your lips, but they also specifically make an Aquaphor lip balm.
[00:03:08.040 --> 00:03:17.320] Just slather it on before you go to bed and put it like really not just on the lip part of your lips, but all the way around, like over lower half of your face.
[00:03:17.640 --> 00:03:21.960] Kind of just smother the whole lower half of your face with it.
[00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:24.520] Really just smother your whole face with it.
[00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:26.040] Yeah, just all over.
[00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:27.800] I recently discovered that Dr.
[00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:29.960] Bronner's, you know, that Castile Soap?
[00:03:29.960 --> 00:03:30.280] Yeah.
[00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:34.920] Like pseudo witchy or whatever company.
[00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:36.120] Colty.
[00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:37.480] Pseudo started making a lip balm.
[00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:40.040] No, actual cultie.
[00:03:40.040 --> 00:03:40.600] Yeah.
[00:03:40.600 --> 00:03:41.800] Pseudo witchy.
[00:03:41.800 --> 00:03:42.520] Gotcha.
[00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:43.520] Gotcha.
[00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:48.400] They started making a lip balm, and that is also fantastic.
[00:03:48.720 --> 00:03:51.840] Is it in a sleek stick?
[00:03:52.160 --> 00:03:56.080] Okay, I'm like now exclusively tube lip balm.
[00:03:56.080 --> 00:03:58.400] Like I need it coming out of the tube.
[00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:07.200] Oh, I feel like the sticks just aren't enough for this, you know, cold, cold north winter.
[00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:08.000] Okay.
[00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:12.400] I need a hijacking this back.
[00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:12.880] Okay, yeah.
[00:04:12.880 --> 00:04:13.440] You ready?
[00:04:13.440 --> 00:04:14.480] Bring it back.
[00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:15.840] Hello, everyone.
[00:04:17.440 --> 00:04:20.080] Here, that was our little cold intro.
[00:04:20.320 --> 00:04:23.200] We're talking about podcasts today.
[00:04:23.520 --> 00:04:28.720] Podcast and lip balm, because they do go hand in hand in a lot of ways, right?
[00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:33.520] When you're sitting here talking into a microphone constantly, you have to have hydrated lips.
[00:04:33.520 --> 00:04:34.640] Absolutely, you do.
[00:04:34.640 --> 00:04:37.280] That's how we got this started today.
[00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:48.880] So you were on yesterday as of our experience of this, but last week, as of the audience's experience of what has happened, we talked about.
[00:04:49.200 --> 00:04:53.200] We talked about how you have some tea to spill about some podcast industry.
[00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:55.600] Kathleen's like, let's hope that you're not going to be able to.
[00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:57.920] We don't need a recap for them.
[00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:01.200] What is going on with podcasting, Emily?
[00:05:01.520 --> 00:05:03.520] It's falling apart, everybody.
[00:05:03.520 --> 00:05:08.160] It is falling apart in some really interesting ways.
[00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:15.760] And I'm really excited to dive into it because this needs to be shared from a couple of standpoints.
[00:05:15.760 --> 00:05:24.960] One, I feel like advertising always is a little bit of like a sort of behind the scenes, like you don't really know what's happening, but it's obviously always in your face.
[00:05:24.960 --> 00:07:05.520] And podcasting, we've seen, we've watched literally every step of like podcast advertising along the way from when we got our first sponsor over eight years ago when no one was really sponsoring podcasts yet to now what the the advertising industry has become and how that has affected and otherwise plays hand in hand with how audiences have changed and how that's affecting how people are creating content and where in business models podcasts exist now and what that all means for indie shows because spoiler i think we're about to start seeing the end of indie podcasting in a very real way which i think everyone can kind of smell in the context of literally this conversation of this business the backbone of which has been a podcast for so long cannot sustain as it is because you cannot have a podcasting business in this way anymore say more about that well first say more about what an indie podcast is like what how do you and what's not an indie podcast how do you differentiate well there's a couple it's like it's it's a it's a malleable definition it's more of like a venn diagram if you will where think of a large brand or a large network or production company is producing a non-indie podcast right they're putting a whole lot of money into a show a lot of money and resources to create a show whatever whatever that is um big production.
[00:07:05.520 --> 00:07:10.000] Indie shows are shows that are not big productions.
[00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:19.600] It's like it's a person or two people or a very small team who are just producing one, two, maybe a handful of shows, but they're not huge productions.
[00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:27.280] Or what you're seeing more and more of now is how podcasting has become an advertising arm of other smaller companies.
[00:07:27.280 --> 00:07:29.600] Those are kind of indie as well, though.
[00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:33.840] I don't think really that's sort of the middle of that Venn diagram, right?
[00:07:34.080 --> 00:07:44.000] Where it's not podcasting for podcasting's sake as much as it is podcasting for a brand, which is how it is that Being Boss started.
[00:07:44.000 --> 00:08:00.960] Being Boss started as a show that you and I were creating as a marketing arm, sort of between our two companies, but we were also doing it for the content as equally, if not maybe more so, than as a marketing arm of our two individual companies.
[00:08:00.960 --> 00:08:10.800] Well, for sure, anytime you're doing anything, and we've talked about this many times on Being Boss, you have to understand how you're being compensated, whether it's creatively, financially, whatever that looks like.
[00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:14.480] We both had a ton of experience in creating content.
[00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:16.320] We'd been blogging for years.
[00:08:16.320 --> 00:08:19.840] I think that you all, if you're still here, you know the story.
[00:08:19.840 --> 00:08:26.560] And then we happened to start podcasting as a way to establish our personal brands and to market our businesses.
[00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:33.200] That was how we planned on being compensated for creating the kind of valuable content that we were creating.
[00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:45.200] It accidentally turned into an advertising platform whenever other brands wanted to buy space on our podcast to share their brand.
[00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:48.560] And that's the difference between marketing and advertising.
[00:08:48.560 --> 00:08:53.920] So, marketing is whenever you are sharing what it is that you have to sell out in the world.
[00:08:53.920 --> 00:09:03.080] Advertising can be part of marketing, but advertising is specifically buying space on other people's shows or platforms or whatever.
[00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:28.520] And as you kind of really dive into the advertising world, which I can speak to because my company is primarily branding and marketing, but we do have a big advertising part of what we do where we are buying media on shows, on Google, on digital advertising, and all of traditional media too, like billboards and bus benches and all of that stuff.
[00:09:28.520 --> 00:09:33.080] We are buying space for our clients to then advertise in those places.
[00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:48.360] So, the thing is, is like television shows, award shows, podcasts now, they're almost being created for advertising versus for the content.
[00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:53.800] Like, yeah, we're really lucky whenever we get a really good show to watch and it happens to have commercials.
[00:09:53.800 --> 00:09:55.000] But guess what?
[00:09:55.000 --> 00:10:06.200] The way that the industry has changed in media is that you can buy streaming services with no advertising, and then you truly are paying for the content itself.
[00:10:06.520 --> 00:10:11.400] Um, you can pay more to take out advertising out of YouTube, for example.
[00:10:11.400 --> 00:10:19.000] And that is what I do: I pay for everything so that I am never advertised to because I don't want to hear it.
[00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:21.640] I'm here for the content, and I'm willing to pay for it.
[00:10:21.640 --> 00:10:29.160] So, if you're not paying for it, you are the product, you are what people are selling to advertisers.
[00:10:29.160 --> 00:10:32.920] So, that's just a little like tangent on what advertising is.
[00:10:32.920 --> 00:10:41.000] And I can really see that, you know, it used to be like ABC, NBC, CBS, and we were all watching the same things, like in the 80s, right?
[00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:46.720] We were all watching ALF, we were all watching Golden Girls, we were all watching the soap operas.
[00:10:47.040 --> 00:11:00.960] And then as soon as cable came along, it kind of turned that industry on its head because people were able to pay for cable and they're now we're just paying for the content versus the advertising.
[00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:04.720] And so I think that something like that could be happening in podcasting.
[00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:08.080] I'm going to hear more of your thoughts on it, Emily, for sure.
[00:11:08.560 --> 00:11:11.520] So yeah, let's go back to you.
[00:11:11.520 --> 00:11:14.080] I'm stepping off my soapbox there.
[00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:15.440] No, that's great.
[00:11:15.680 --> 00:11:22.800] It's great to differentiate the two and understand how they work because that's what has happened in the podcasting industry.
[00:11:22.800 --> 00:11:26.720] And I remember a couple of years ago, and you'll remember this too.
[00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:39.200] We talked about it a couple of years later here on the show, but I realized that something bad was happening in the podcast industry when Spotify paid way too fucking much money to Joe Rogan for his show.
[00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:40.720] I was like, okay, okay, okay.
[00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:45.440] Like this is going in a direction that is not going to be great for indie podcasters.
[00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:47.840] And, you know, I had my rantings.
[00:11:48.560 --> 00:11:51.680] I've shared my feelings here on the show somewhere before.
[00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:57.840] I will not go back into it, but I realized that things were going in a really weird direction when big players started getting into it.
[00:11:57.840 --> 00:11:59.280] And on one hand, that's great.
[00:11:59.280 --> 00:12:05.520] We're making podcasting sort of more mainstream, which is only going to be quote unquote better for everyone who's doing it.
[00:12:05.520 --> 00:12:06.480] And all of these things.
[00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:17.360] So there were definitely some pros to it, but the cons were that advertising was coming into this space in a way that was not going to be for the creators and really, even for the audiences.
[00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:21.280] It was going to be for the people who brought the money in to do the thing.
[00:12:21.280 --> 00:12:31.080] And it was going to, I knew that it was going to snowball really quickly because podcasting is expensive to do.
[00:12:31.400 --> 00:12:38.360] It is an incredibly process-rich process, right?
[00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:52.760] There is a whole lot of that goes into producing a show, especially these days as the Disability Act has gotten into how podcasting can be presented to the world and all of these things, like, and the expectations of advertisers as well.
[00:12:52.760 --> 00:13:06.600] The production or the cost of production of shows has only gone up while the willingness of advertisers to pay for it has gone down in a really interesting way.
[00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:08.520] Like, I don't think you know this.
[00:13:08.520 --> 00:13:14.520] I don't think we've talked about it, but I'm still using the same rate sheets that we used in 2018.
[00:13:14.520 --> 00:13:19.400] And I'm getting more pushback on them now than I did in 2018.
[00:13:19.400 --> 00:13:33.240] Like, I have not been able to raise our rates in five years and still, in some cases, get a whole lot of pushback on it, even as the cost of production of this show has gone way up.
[00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:33.720] Right.
[00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:39.640] Because whenever we started in 2018, we were constantly in the top charts because guess what?
[00:13:39.640 --> 00:13:42.440] We were in the right place at the right time.
[00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:44.840] We, and don't let anyone sell you.
[00:13:44.920 --> 00:13:45.720] Doing good shit.
[00:13:45.800 --> 00:13:47.240] Doing good stuff, right?
[00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:50.200] Don't let anyone sell you on here's how to have a top podcast.
[00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:56.840] You know, it's just like anything else where you just have to show up and do the thing and constantly do it.
[00:13:56.840 --> 00:13:58.440] And that's what we were doing.
[00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:02.040] And also, it was like kind of the Wild, Wild West.
[00:14:02.040 --> 00:14:05.960] Like, advertisers didn't know really what it was worth.
[00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:10.840] So we were charging what we were worth at the time.
[00:14:10.840 --> 00:14:11.400] Yeah.
[00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:13.640] But maybe it's just not worth as much now.
[00:14:13.640 --> 00:14:14.280] Do you know what I mean?
[00:14:14.280 --> 00:14:16.080] Like, even though the cost of production.
[00:14:16.400 --> 00:14:17.520] Absolutely, it's not.
[00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:19.360] And that's that's something that I've struggled with a whole lot.
[00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:27.200] But also, I want to go back to this thing of like right time, right place, good content, top charts, because now you can buy your way onto the top charts.
[00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:32.000] Most of the shows that you see in top charts have bought their way there.
[00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:32.960] 100%.
[00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:37.760] Like, I know the people who've built the tech who have made that happen.
[00:14:37.760 --> 00:14:44.160] You paid some monies and you get all the stats that Apple wants to put you in those top charts.
[00:14:44.160 --> 00:14:47.840] So almost everyone in the top charts these days have paid to get there.
[00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:48.880] It is not right place.
[00:14:48.880 --> 00:14:49.920] It is not right time.
[00:14:49.920 --> 00:14:51.520] It is not good content.
[00:14:51.520 --> 00:14:53.840] It's money, period.
[00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:54.880] Yeah.
[00:14:54.880 --> 00:14:55.760] How does that make you feel?
[00:14:56.080 --> 00:15:05.040] Same is true for a lot of Google searches and New York Times bestsellers lists and basically, you know, being shown on social media.
[00:15:05.040 --> 00:15:08.240] Everything is kind of pay to play at this point.
[00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:12.480] Capitalism is a roaring out there.
[00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:18.800] And it really is hard for people, those of us who just want to create good content and be really creative.
[00:15:18.800 --> 00:15:20.240] It is hard.
[00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:28.560] So I hate to be discouraging, but I can't help it because this is a podcast about being boss changing.
[00:15:28.560 --> 00:15:34.400] This is a podcast about how you bought me out three years ago because I was feeling the change then.
[00:15:34.400 --> 00:15:36.320] You're feeling the change now.
[00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:39.840] So you've just got to figure out a way to make it work for you.
[00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:44.560] And what that means, I guess what I really want to say is that there is no easy way.
[00:15:44.560 --> 00:15:47.280] There is no magic bullet.
[00:15:47.280 --> 00:15:48.400] There is nothing.
[00:15:48.400 --> 00:15:54.320] Like I hear a lot of people say, I think I want to start a podcast because it seems easier than blogging.
[00:15:54.320 --> 00:16:00.040] And I think that what those people really mean to say is talking is easier than writing.
[00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:02.840] But podcasting is not easy.
[00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:03.320] No.
[00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:05.560] Blogging is not easy.
[00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:06.840] Nothing is easy.
[00:16:07.160 --> 00:16:17.320] So you need to pick the thing that is hard that you are willing to do and really stand behind, even whenever it's really hard, because that's where you're going to find success.
[00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:31.400] You're not going to find success in just trying to take the easy route or seeing what has brought other people success or what someone's trying to sell you as what will be successful.
[00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:33.320] I digress.
[00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:34.440] Right?
[00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:37.000] We're going to get really hated throughout this whole one.
[00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:43.080] Yes, and I will say that there are places for you to create content that are a little more in your favor.
[00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:51.400] And what I've just found over the years is that podcasting has become less and less in the creator's favor over and over again.
[00:16:51.400 --> 00:17:04.120] And I'm definitely, I'll call it jaded by the fact that I was able to enjoy so much of it when it was new and when it was like the golden age of podcasting or whatever.
[00:17:04.120 --> 00:17:19.400] Like I remember what that was like and how beautiful it was, how easy it was to find your people and build an audience and build relationships with those audiences and those sorts of things and really be able to focus on creating the content.
[00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:29.960] Whereas, or I'm jaded by that experience being in it now, knowing that that is no longer accessible.
[00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:36.120] And like I said, well, yesterday/slash last week, is like, this is not a sandbox that I want to play in anymore.
[00:17:36.120 --> 00:17:55.680] Of like, this is not fun for me to be in a space where I know what we're doing and I know what we can help, but knowing that I have to put in thousands, literally thousands and thousands of dollars every single month to be in the top charts, just to like have discoverability for new audiences because that's how much it costs.
[00:17:55.680 --> 00:18:07.520] And I have seen shows that are literally putting out six plus figures, like multiple six figures every six to 12 months to stay in the top charts.
[00:18:07.520 --> 00:18:15.920] Like there is that kind of money in this industry now to keep indie podcasting sort of at the bottom of the barrel.
[00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:18.000] Name names, who's paying?
[00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:23.120] Go look at the top charts and 75% of them are.
[00:18:23.120 --> 00:18:24.560] What does it rhyme with?
[00:18:24.560 --> 00:18:26.320] I'm not giving names.
[00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:29.200] What do they rhyme with?
[00:18:32.080 --> 00:18:34.000] I'm not going to be shady.
[00:18:34.560 --> 00:18:36.800] However, anybody want to come buy me a cocktail?
[00:18:36.800 --> 00:18:38.720] I will absolutely tell you in private.
[00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:39.680] How about that?
[00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:42.960] I will absolutely tell you in private.
[00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:50.400] Mostly, I'm not going to say anything super publicly, but like 75% of them are absolutely paying their way there.
[00:18:51.040 --> 00:18:52.800] And this is a product of a lot of things.
[00:18:52.800 --> 00:18:56.000] Like this is sort of where things are.
[00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:00.400] But I want to talk a little bit about how they got here.
[00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:18.720] Because what has happened over the years, and something that I felt, and I'm talking obviously very much so advertiser side of things, which I could talk about all day because it is the number one thing that is shaping this industry now is where the money is coming from because it's not coming from audiences anymore.
[00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:25.920] And this is sort of where this began: as people started creating more and more shows, and 2020 was, I think, a really big part of that.
[00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:29.960] Like, everyone started a podcast, you know, either you were baking bread or podcasting.
[00:19:28.800 --> 00:19:33.800] I was doing neither, other than the normal podcasting.
[00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:36.760] But a lot of podcasts started.
[00:19:37.080 --> 00:19:39.640] Everything got super saturated, so many shows.
[00:19:39.640 --> 00:19:45.960] And if you look at any of the stats now, there's proof that there's more advertising money and podcasting now than ever before.
[00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:48.840] Which, if you look at it like that, you're like, oh, that's great.
[00:19:48.840 --> 00:19:50.360] Podcasting is really growing.
[00:19:50.520 --> 00:19:59.160] What do you mean about that advertising money being spread over multiple times more shows than there were a couple of years ago?
[00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:04.200] You realize that it's more resources, but they're more stretched than they ever have been.
[00:20:04.840 --> 00:20:11.880] And there's a sort of war between sort of engagement and sort of visibility.
[00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:17.240] And it all stems from audiences becoming more and more stretched as well.
[00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:21.000] People are listening to more shows, not fewer shows.
[00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:26.040] Used to, everyone was listening, like the stat was like, you know, everyone is listening to four podcasts, right?
[00:20:26.040 --> 00:20:32.360] Like, how do you, you know, get garnish the attention, you know, from that being that 25% that they're listening to?
[00:20:32.360 --> 00:20:37.160] Now I think the stat is up to like nine shows or something.
[00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:40.840] And so divided attention, less engagement.
[00:20:40.840 --> 00:21:00.440] And I can think of this very sort of real world, very small scale from our experience, is we used to get so much fan mail, fan mail, and like physical things in the mail from people who were wanting to send us their book or, you know, something that they had made or they had done some artwork for us and all of these things.
[00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:10.040] And not to say that I'm here for the gifts, but it is like, it is an illustration of something where we don't get that anymore at all.
[00:21:10.040 --> 00:21:13.080] Like our audience is not engaged with us on that level.
[00:21:13.080 --> 00:21:17.600] And I'll say this too: being boss the podcast is bigger than it has ever been.
[00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:20.080] Like by far in a lot of ways.
[00:21:20.080 --> 00:21:23.840] Like we are getting more downloads than we have ever gotten before.
[00:21:23.840 --> 00:21:27.680] And the engagement is far less than it has ever been.
[00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:42.640] We were getting more engagement when we were 20% of the size that we are now than we do multiple times bigger than we were several years ago because audiences are engaging with shows differently, which says a lot for indie shows.
[00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:51.440] So those of us who do have a show, who are trying to sell digital products or experiences or whatever, we're having a harder time selling those things.
[00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:58.480] But advertisers are also having a harder time selling their things, which is making them want to pay even less for it.
[00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:04.560] And it just is this sort of trickle-down effect that has pretty much screwed over everybody.
[00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:09.360] It screws over the audience in that you have to listen to more advertising than ever before.
[00:22:09.360 --> 00:22:16.080] It screws over the creator in that no one's paying them to produce a show, not the audiences or the advertisers.
[00:22:16.080 --> 00:22:26.480] And it's screwing over the advertisers too, because they are putting a bunch of money into podcasting and have no proof of concept, which is something that I see over and over again.
[00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:32.560] We'll have advertisers very excited about coming in and sponsoring the show, but they want metrics.
[00:22:32.560 --> 00:22:34.960] They want to know how many people are converting.
[00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:38.080] You literally cannot have that data and podcast.
[00:22:38.080 --> 00:22:38.960] And not, you can't have it.
[00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:40.160] Like it is inaccessible.
[00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:45.520] There is no way to tell who listened to a show and then what they ended up going and doing.
[00:22:45.520 --> 00:22:47.120] And there's some tracking that's happening.
[00:22:47.120 --> 00:22:47.680] Absolutely.
[00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:51.200] If you don't think you're getting tracked on podcasts, you are silly.
[00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:53.120] You're 100% getting tracked.
[00:22:53.120 --> 00:23:01.160] But there are holes in the day that disconnects being able to really watch and see what conversion rates are on shows.
[00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:09.800] So it's this environment where really everything is disconnected, nothing is really working, and it's all falling apart as we go.
[00:23:13.960 --> 00:23:16.920] Is that the sweetest sound on the internet, or what?
[00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:22.920] That's the sound of another sale, another dollar, another customer on your Shopify e-commerce store.
[00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:35.400] For years, that sound has told me that I'm being boss, no matter where I am or what I'm doing, as a longtime user of Shopify, the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide.
[00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:50.840] Whether you're selling crystals and candles like me, or you're selling your artwork, your planners, your tarot decks, or your seriously cool t-shirts, Shopify simplifies selling online and in person so you can focus on successfully growing your business.
[00:23:50.840 --> 00:23:57.880] Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com/slash beingboss all lowercase.
[00:23:57.880 --> 00:24:03.400] Go to shopify.com/slash beingboss to take your business to the next level today.
[00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:06.840] Shopify.com/slash beingboss.
[00:24:15.320 --> 00:24:17.640] So I'm reading a stat right now.
[00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:20.600] And you know, it's just like on explodingtopics.com.
[00:24:20.600 --> 00:24:25.640] I don't know if this is verified, but I just googled how many podcasts are there.
[00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:32.360] There are around 150 million podcast episodes, averaging 50 episodes per podcast.
[00:24:32.360 --> 00:24:39.160] Half of all podcast episodes are downloaded less than 29 times in the first week after publishing.
[00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:46.880] So that's not great because how many episodes does Being Boss get downloaded within the first week after publishing?
[00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:49.600] I mean, in the thousands, right?
[00:24:49.840 --> 00:24:52.480] I mean, oh, yeah, yeah, like 10, 10,000.
[00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:52.720] Right.
[00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:58.720] Which is like, so, and there's it, we're one of the top 0.1%.
[00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:02.080] Top 0.1% of all shows.
[00:25:02.080 --> 00:25:09.120] And, and, like, we're not, is that's, that's like our blogs used to get more visits than that in a week, right?
[00:25:09.120 --> 00:25:17.280] Like, that is not a huge amount of downloads, um, but in the grand scheme of things, that's huge.
[00:25:17.280 --> 00:25:18.400] Right.
[00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:21.680] So, I'm still, okay, here's the deal.
[00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:25.280] I know that we just talked a lot of shit on podcasting.
[00:25:25.280 --> 00:25:29.840] I am still a proponent of being a creative, whatever that looks like for you.
[00:25:29.840 --> 00:25:33.680] If that does look like podcasting, by all means, do it.
[00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:37.840] I used to say things like, just plug in a pair of Apple headphones and you can podcast.
[00:25:37.840 --> 00:25:39.680] Nope, that's no longer.
[00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:47.360] You have to have really top-notch sound and production and a concept, and you've got to put your all into it, right?
[00:25:47.360 --> 00:25:56.480] So, after I left Being Boss, I did end up creating a podcast for Braid Creative, specifically for credit union marketers.
[00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:58.880] So, I got incredibly niched.
[00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:12.160] I knew I only wanted it to be six episodes, and it really was more of like a, I think of it almost more as a digital product that I can point people toward for free in the podcasting format.
[00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:16.640] And really, the podcast is just what made it searchable, for instance.
[00:26:16.840 --> 00:26:21.760] But really, but really something that I could send to credit union marketers and say, Hey, look, I made this thing for you.
[00:26:21.760 --> 00:26:31.640] My goal with that was to get one or two six-figure clients more than an advertiser could ever pay me for that podcast.
[00:26:31.640 --> 00:26:32.280] And guess what?
[00:26:32.280 --> 00:26:33.080] I did it.
[00:26:33.080 --> 00:26:33.960] I got it.
[00:26:29.760 --> 00:26:35.960] I got paid for that podcast and then some.
[00:26:36.040 --> 00:26:40.600] And that podcast probably cost me, I don't know, around $5,000.
[00:26:40.600 --> 00:26:43.080] We rented an actual podcast studio.
[00:26:43.080 --> 00:26:46.600] We had a sound engineer editing everything, putting it all to music.
[00:26:46.600 --> 00:26:52.840] We spent a lot of time in pre-production, six months in pre-production for six podcast episodes.
[00:26:52.840 --> 00:26:57.720] So you've got to put your all into it if you're going to do it.
[00:26:58.360 --> 00:27:02.520] And, you know, or maybe it's just a creative outlet, like try it and see what happens.
[00:27:02.520 --> 00:27:06.840] I've talked before about how I started a YouTube and I was just going to try it and see what happens.
[00:27:06.840 --> 00:27:10.760] And I've fallen off the YouTube wagon because it is a shit ton of work.
[00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:17.800] You know, as much, if not more than podcasting, because it's not just audio, now it's visual and all of the editing.
[00:27:18.120 --> 00:27:18.920] I loved it.
[00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:19.800] I loved editing.
[00:27:19.800 --> 00:27:20.840] I did it for myself.
[00:27:20.840 --> 00:27:21.480] And guess what?
[00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:29.000] Now I'm able to bring those skills to things that I'm creating for my clients that are actually paying me to do that sort of thing.
[00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:36.360] But I love doing it because I loved telling the stories and kind of creating content and just doing something creative.
[00:27:36.360 --> 00:27:41.800] So all of that to say, feel free to do a podcast if it's your creative outlet.
[00:27:41.800 --> 00:27:52.840] If you're wanting to get paid, well, I don't know, maybe start listening to another show because, or like all the other things that we've said, or like buy our book, you know, buy our book.
[00:27:52.840 --> 00:28:12.120] That's like the timeless kind of advice that we put in the Beanboss book that I think will work no matter where you are or when you are in your entrepreneurial journey, because it's basically like have boundaries, do good work, be a good person, don't get in debt.
[00:28:12.120 --> 00:28:15.280] Like, you know, it's the basics.
[00:28:15.600 --> 00:28:16.240] Yeah.
[00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:16.880] Right.
[00:28:14.840 --> 00:28:18.720] And, and that's sort of where I am.
[00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:23.360] So, what I've mentioned, what I mentioned in the last episode is like, I'm done with the podcasting industry.
[00:28:23.360 --> 00:28:25.200] Like, I'm done playing this game.
[00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:26.960] I'm done, like, being in here.
[00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:30.880] And not, I'm not done working with advertisers that it makes sense to work with.
[00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:33.840] I have ran the gamut of advertisers.
[00:28:33.840 --> 00:28:37.200] There are people that I have worked with that I would never speak to again.
[00:28:37.520 --> 00:28:41.680] And there are people and even future opportunities that I will not turn away.
[00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:44.080] There is a time and a place for everything.
[00:28:44.080 --> 00:28:49.200] But the difference is for the past several years, I have worked for advertisers.
[00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:54.800] I've had some big contracts and some things that I have had to work for and achieve.
[00:28:54.800 --> 00:29:02.240] And unfortunately, when you're working in that way, it overshadows literally everything else that you're doing.
[00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:09.680] And even as, you know, even I think, you know, there is an advertiser that was with us for years and years and years and years.
[00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:19.440] And if you've been here, you know who it is that we're talking about here who was always really great to work with until they weren't anymore.
[00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:26.400] And that was more of like a team member turnover over and over and over again.
[00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:31.760] That was a relationship thing because I have to say that advertiser, I loved them.
[00:29:31.760 --> 00:29:34.320] I loved them, the people that we were working with.
[00:29:34.320 --> 00:29:38.720] And like our, whenever it was collaborative and really good, it was really good.
[00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:44.960] I don't even know the people that you worked with after they left that position.
[00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:52.560] It was many people who did not even know what the relationship with being boss even was after doing it for years.
[00:29:52.560 --> 00:29:58.000] And like it was very badly managed in some really awful, in some really unfortunate ways.
[00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:13.240] And that sort of a thing, too, is like, you know, when you're basing your business on a couple of big contracts and then team turnover or something happens and you have your leg cut off at the knee or whatever it may be over things that you have zero control over.
[00:30:13.560 --> 00:30:21.000] And here's sort of something that I've gotten to: I think a lot of creatives or like type A entrepreneurs are going to get this.
[00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:26.840] Is I definitely felt like my fate was a little too tied to corporate America, right?
[00:30:26.840 --> 00:30:38.600] To the whims of sort of that larger scale economy, in some cases, stock portfolios, and just things that like, this is the reason why I'm not in that world.
[00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:52.600] And yet, over the years, this business model got more and more tied to that world in a way that I was absolutely at the whim of corporate America in a way that I hated.
[00:30:52.600 --> 00:30:55.480] And especially once things started shaking out.
[00:30:55.480 --> 00:31:00.600] And I will say, we've, this is unprecedented times, right?
[00:31:00.600 --> 00:31:05.480] Like pandemics, recession, crazy shit in politics.
[00:31:05.480 --> 00:31:11.480] Like it is, this has not been the easiest time in our lives to be really navigating anything.
[00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:14.520] But so I'm not blaming any one person.
[00:31:14.520 --> 00:31:31.960] It's definitely been a product of the overall environment, but it's been relentlessly difficult in a lot of ways and to the detriment of a creative project that we started to have fun, right?
[00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:32.440] Right.
[00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:54.800] And so I've definitely gotten to a place, or we got to a place, and I say we in terms of my team going through all of these things and having this fall through and that not hit the way we want and that proposal being jokingly small or whatever it may be and getting to a place of like, but what would it be like to sponsor ourselves?
[00:31:55.120 --> 00:32:10.800] What would it be like to change the way we think about this show in a way that allows us to be the people back in the driving seat of not only the creativity of it, but also the funding of it?
[00:32:10.800 --> 00:32:11.920] What would that look like?
[00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:20.320] And how would that sort of tip the scales and make this more interesting to all of us working on this project?
[00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:34.000] Because if being boss, if this show or whatever this show ends up shaping up to be like, if it is going to continue, it cannot be in the throes of the podcasting industry.
[00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:42.480] We have to take it out of that environment and put it in a place where we can foster it in the ways that we most want to.
[00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:47.200] Because there are lots of weird little things that are happening too around podcast tech.
[00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:52.320] Like this is a very tech-heavy industry in a way that it wasn't whenever you and I got started.
[00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:55.840] Ad insertions and all of those things are just getting worse.
[00:32:55.840 --> 00:33:00.880] The relationships between you and sponsors are just getting more and more displaced.
[00:33:01.120 --> 00:33:16.000] You can even get tech now to dynamically skip dynamically inserted ads, which is like, that's like really diving into that cannibalizing piece of like, if you can just automatically skip those ads.
[00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:20.320] And I know a lot of people skip our ads, which are not dynamically inserted.
[00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:28.400] There's an app somewhere for everyone wants to, I don't, I don't remember what it's called, but definitely came across my digital desk relatively recently.
[00:33:29.360 --> 00:33:34.600] There are apps that allow you to do that because everything is so digital that you can do things like that.
[00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:38.200] And so that doesn't do the advertisers any justice.
[00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:44.120] It doesn't do the creators any, like it fucks everybody over in the process.
[00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:46.120] But it's just, it's a thing.
[00:33:46.120 --> 00:33:48.360] And I think it's just going to keep getting worse.
[00:33:48.360 --> 00:34:01.480] So the idea here is to pull Being Boss out of the podcasting industry so that it is just a content platform.
[00:34:02.280 --> 00:34:06.840] So going back to what you were saying of like, how are you going to be compensated?
[00:34:06.840 --> 00:34:11.160] Sponsors have stopped compensating us in the way they used to.
[00:34:11.160 --> 00:34:13.400] We still work with their sponsors for this episode.
[00:34:13.400 --> 00:34:14.840] I very much so appreciate them.
[00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:15.880] We will have some in the future.
[00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:26.280] We work with people in the community, but when it comes to depending on sponsors for the production of this show, I'm not going to be doing that in that way anymore.
[00:34:27.320 --> 00:34:31.240] Nor do I want it to shape how it is that we do content.
[00:34:31.240 --> 00:34:49.160] Because one of the sort of another dark side of sponsors becoming such an integral part of the podcasting industry these days is they've brought in so many sort of old school ways of managing advertising and what their expectations are.
[00:34:49.320 --> 00:34:51.960] And also there's like a lot of audience things in that too.
[00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:58.360] You know, I think the coaching that goes into starting a podcast is your audience is going to want to know what to expect.
[00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:08.520] And when you create contracts with, you know, sponsors, they're going to want to know your air dates, and you're going to have to make sure your podcasts are a certain length to make sure that your advertising fits in them nicely.
[00:35:08.520 --> 00:35:15.680] Like, I am boxed the fuck in when it comes to what it is that I'm creating and when it is that it goes out into the world.
[00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:42.960] And so, part of this transition, too, is busting free of that box and really reimagining what it is that we can do in terms of show length and show content and show publication schedules and all of these things because the podcasting industry has us in a very small, very confined, and very particular box as to what it is that I can say, how it is that I can say it, when it is that it is said.
[00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:50.080] Um, and I'm too rebellious for that shit.
[00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:51.440] Yes, you are.
[00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:53.840] I'm like, corporate America, give me all your money.
[00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:57.760] I will podcast all you want if you give me some money.
[00:35:57.760 --> 00:36:06.080] But the thing is, is that just like I have, we have a lot of people coming to us wanting to write books and they're asking about how to get agents and these sort of things.
[00:36:06.080 --> 00:36:09.600] And I tell them, well, first you have to become internet famous.
[00:36:09.600 --> 00:36:12.880] Like, you have to be internet famous to get a book deal.
[00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:15.040] And now, the same is true for podcasting.
[00:36:15.040 --> 00:36:17.760] Have you noticed how many celebrities now have a podcast?
[00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:19.040] Basically, all of them.
[00:36:19.040 --> 00:36:22.000] Podcasting has become the new book deal.
[00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.240] Yeah, and that's actually, I have notes on that.
[00:36:24.240 --> 00:36:28.640] That's actually a very big player into the death of the indie podcast as well.
[00:36:28.640 --> 00:36:37.760] Is now all the people with money producing podcasts has realized that one of the best ways for them to make back that money is if is if a big name is the host of that podcast.
[00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:44.080] And there's a lot of chatter happening in the podcasting community about how this is death to the indie podcaster.
[00:36:44.080 --> 00:36:50.800] Because if podcasting becomes another celebrity platform, then no one's going to care to hear from Emily Thompson from being boss.
[00:36:50.800 --> 00:37:09.960] They're going to want to go hear it from Sophia Armaruso, you know, doing whatever it is that she's doing out there, her next gig, or whatever it may be, or it's, you know, someone from Shark Tank or whatever it may be, in a way that, like, I get, I love those Shark Tank folks, some of them at least, but it is not good for indie podcasting.
[00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:17.080] And business, I think the business set of podcasts is a whole different beast on its own, for better or worse.
[00:37:17.240 --> 00:37:24.360] It is not, I was talking in the last episode of this industry is not my favorite for a couple of reasons.
[00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:28.440] One, the peers are, in a lot of cases, appalling.
[00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:33.960] And two, the competition is vast in this space.
[00:37:34.200 --> 00:37:47.080] So, like, the celebrity thing in this space is real, but it's, I think, even more detrimental in a lot of the other categories of podcasts where you have people who have been in here doing some great storytelling or whatever it may be.
[00:37:47.080 --> 00:37:54.200] But whenever you bring in a big-name celebrity into those spaces, everyone else falls away in a really unfortunate way.
[00:37:54.200 --> 00:37:55.880] So, yes, I have definitely seen that.
[00:37:55.880 --> 00:38:09.400] It is a very big conversation happening in the indie podcasting scene and is just another sort of nail in the coffin, I think, of what podcasting has been for the past decade.
[00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:11.560] Do you listen to any podcasts?
[00:38:11.560 --> 00:38:13.080] Absolutely not.
[00:38:13.080 --> 00:38:26.120] Okay, so we started this podcast with me being a big podcast fan, and I was listening to things like Serial and S-Town and some of the big hitters at the very beginning.
[00:38:26.120 --> 00:38:28.120] And you never listen to podcasts.
[00:38:28.120 --> 00:38:32.200] Maybe every once in a while you would listen to an episode of something I would send you away.
[00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:36.040] I occasionally, it's rarely an episode.
[00:38:36.040 --> 00:38:38.760] Occasionally, I will listen to a whole mini-series.
[00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:43.720] I love a mini series, and there has been a couple of them, but like, but otherwise, no.
[00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:45.840] I'm still an avid podcast listener.
[00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:55.440] Earlier, whenever you said people, you know, used to listen to four podcasts, and now it's nine, I probably have 30 to 40 shows that I subscribe to.
[00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:57.280] Am I listening to all of them every week?
[00:38:57.280 --> 00:38:58.400] Absolutely not.
[00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:01.840] Are there maybe a handful that I'm listening to every week?
[00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:03.040] Absolutely yes.
[00:39:03.040 --> 00:39:07.120] There's probably four or five, honestly, that I'm listening to every week.
[00:39:07.120 --> 00:39:11.200] And I have found there are a few that I listen to.
[00:39:11.200 --> 00:39:21.920] And what I've noticed is that I listen to one huge big hitter podcast, which is Armchair Expert, also bought by Spotify, still has advertising.
[00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:32.800] And that was the thing that confused me about all these Spotify deals: I figured that if I'm a Spotify customer paying for Spotify and these podcasts are Spotify exclusives, I wouldn't have to listen to ads anymore.
[00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:34.320] And I was all about it.
[00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:35.840] That is not the case.
[00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:40.800] Even if you pay for Spotify and you're listening through Spotify, you are still hearing advertising.
[00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:42.480] Okay, so that's one thing.
[00:39:42.720 --> 00:40:00.960] The second thing is I've noticed that some of the podcasts I'm listening to do not have advertisers and they are successful and they're done really well and they're kind of old school, like just a couple talking and they have a Patreon and they weren't even pushing it that hard to begin with.
[00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:03.520] And now they're pushing it a little bit more.
[00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:05.760] So I love that.
[00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:12.560] I love that they're making their living doing something else and they're truly creating something for the creativity of it.
[00:40:12.560 --> 00:40:17.200] And that's what keeps me coming back is because they're not thirsty for it.
[00:40:17.200 --> 00:40:21.920] They're not thirsty for sponsors or for you to go buy their product or any of it.
[00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:23.960] They're just chatting and having a good time.
[00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:27.360] And you could just get a little eavesdrop on their conversation.
[00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:28.560] There is another business.
[00:40:28.640 --> 00:40:31.320] But I wonder how well they're actually doing.
[00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:34.520] Like, I kind of want to, but like, show, like, do you have money in your life?
[00:40:34.600 --> 00:40:36.440] Like, are you making some money off of this?
[00:40:37.160 --> 00:40:44.680] They have been personally recommended by the huge podcast I listen to, Armchair Expert.
[00:40:45.240 --> 00:40:47.560] One of the co-hosts is constantly mentioning them.
[00:40:47.560 --> 00:40:49.160] And that's how I got on them.
[00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:56.520] So, you know, they're getting a lot of recommendations, but they've said stuff like the first thousand Patreon subscribers get blank.
[00:40:56.520 --> 00:41:00.120] And so you know that they're not even at a thousand Patreon subscribers yet.
[00:41:00.120 --> 00:41:01.320] So who knows?
[00:41:01.320 --> 00:41:02.040] You know?
[00:41:02.840 --> 00:41:09.400] So yeah, they might not be doing that well on Patreon, but they both have full-time jobs as creatives.
[00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:13.240] And this is a project for them really to just get together and chat.
[00:41:13.240 --> 00:41:18.440] And if that's what podcasting is, like, yeah, you may get opportunities out of that.
[00:41:18.440 --> 00:41:19.320] Here's the thing.
[00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:23.160] If you're creating something that you love, it is going to open some sort of door.
[00:41:23.160 --> 00:41:25.320] I don't know what door that is.
[00:41:25.320 --> 00:41:29.000] So I don't want this to fully deter you from creating a podcast.
[00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:35.320] It's really hard, but if you want to lean into that hard and it's worth it for you, it will open doors for you.
[00:41:35.320 --> 00:41:36.920] It will create some sort of opportunity.
[00:41:36.920 --> 00:41:38.600] I have to believe that about everything.
[00:41:38.600 --> 00:41:40.840] Otherwise, what's the point?
[00:41:40.840 --> 00:41:44.280] Like, what is the point of doing anything if nothing matters?
[00:41:44.280 --> 00:41:45.320] Everything matters.
[00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:45.880] Everything that you're doing.
[00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:49.080] That's my existential crisis these days.
[00:41:49.080 --> 00:41:57.720] Well, girl, get on some Zoloft, 150 milligrams, and you will start feeling a little more optimistic.
[00:41:58.680 --> 00:42:05.000] I know I've really been pushing the anti-anxiety medicine, but truly, you all, it has changed for the better.
[00:42:05.640 --> 00:42:06.600] 100%.
[00:42:06.600 --> 00:42:07.080] Yes.
[00:42:07.120 --> 00:42:08.040] A hundred percent.
[00:42:08.120 --> 00:42:08.440] Yeah.
[00:42:08.440 --> 00:42:08.760] I know.
[00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:09.320] I see.
[00:42:09.320 --> 00:42:15.840] So, anyway, I just want to say, as a listener, there's one other podcast that I listen to quite a bit, and it's a business podcast.
[00:42:14.840 --> 00:42:21.680] And she's only selling her own stuff, you know, and it's not sometimes it's a little heavy-handed.
[00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:28.720] Like, I don't need the whole 15 minutes of a sales pitch at the beginning of an episode, and sometimes I'll skip past that a little bit.
[00:42:29.040 --> 00:42:35.440] Um, but it's kind of like in the more spiritual space, which also, like, I'm just so listen.
[00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:43.920] If you end up, listener, breaking up with like business podcasts after this, because maybe this was the only business podcast you were listening to.
[00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:46.640] I also recommend just quitting self-help in general.
[00:42:46.640 --> 00:42:52.320] Like, go read a novel, you know, like stop buying courses.
[00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:58.000] And I say this as a course creator and just watch a show for fun.
[00:42:58.000 --> 00:43:00.080] Go watch some Ted Lasso.
[00:43:00.080 --> 00:43:03.440] Go listen to actually go live your life.
[00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:05.280] Go live your life.
[00:43:05.520 --> 00:43:07.040] That's real judgy, Emily.
[00:43:07.040 --> 00:43:07.840] Because guess what?
[00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:10.720] Living my life is watching a really good show.
[00:43:10.720 --> 00:43:17.840] Like, I feel like I am alive and well whenever I have a good show to watch.
[00:43:18.160 --> 00:43:18.800] Yeah.
[00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:19.360] Okay.
[00:43:19.680 --> 00:43:21.840] But yeah, go live your life.
[00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:25.600] I wasn't judging, but whatever, go live your life.
[00:43:26.560 --> 00:43:31.520] Gather experiences that will be as good as any self-help you could ever read.
[00:43:31.520 --> 00:43:32.640] 100%.
[00:43:32.640 --> 00:43:33.200] I do.
[00:43:33.200 --> 00:43:34.640] I agree with all of that.
[00:43:34.640 --> 00:43:35.760] All those things.
[00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:40.640] And that really, like, it really all feeds into this decision, right?
[00:43:40.640 --> 00:43:44.560] Of like, of why it is that I'm at this place.
[00:43:44.560 --> 00:43:48.240] Because along the way, I've tried all of the things, right?
[00:43:48.240 --> 00:43:52.720] We've been, we have been supported by sponsors all along the way.
[00:43:52.720 --> 00:43:58.720] Over the past year, I've done a whole lot of polling because we thought, you know, maybe we make the community tier paid again.
[00:43:58.720 --> 00:44:05.480] Maybe we change our brood email to like a sub stack or like charge for that one portion of what we do.
[00:44:05.640 --> 00:44:08.840] Maybe we make this show a paid show.
[00:44:09.160 --> 00:44:13.480] People are, people are overwhelmed by paying for sub stacks anymore.
[00:44:13.480 --> 00:44:14.520] Like, indeed.
[00:44:14.520 --> 00:44:17.000] That has already, what's what's it called?
[00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:18.920] Jump the shark, gone over the hill.
[00:44:18.920 --> 00:44:22.440] Like, I'm getting asked to pay for every email that comes in my inbox right now.
[00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:25.880] And I'm like, y'all, like, I pay for a few of them, but I don't want to.
[00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:27.240] I don't want to.
[00:44:27.240 --> 00:44:30.600] No, I unsubscribe from everything, literally everything.
[00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:33.560] Which really goes into it as well.
[00:44:33.560 --> 00:44:40.440] Is I am not like, I am not the key customer of my own.
[00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:42.680] Like, I'm not paying for any content.
[00:44:42.680 --> 00:44:49.080] And in all of our polling and conversations, no one wants to pay for the shit, which like I get.
[00:44:49.240 --> 00:44:50.360] I don't want to pay for it.
[00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:51.640] I'm not paying for it.
[00:44:51.640 --> 00:44:54.280] But we have to be compensated in some way.
[00:44:54.280 --> 00:45:00.520] If you're not going to pay for the show, if you're not going to pay for the things that we're creating, if you're not going to pay to be a part of the community, all of those things.
[00:45:00.520 --> 00:45:02.840] And the clubhouse tier is still there.
[00:45:02.840 --> 00:45:03.720] It is still paid.
[00:45:03.720 --> 00:45:06.120] People do pay for that and they love it.
[00:45:06.120 --> 00:45:11.960] But the bulk of our audience and community and listeners and all of these things, you don't want to pay for it.
[00:45:11.960 --> 00:45:12.920] And I get it.
[00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:13.960] I totally get it.
[00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:16.840] The world is filled with so much free shit.
[00:45:16.840 --> 00:45:21.560] A monster we created with this like, give it all away for free, 100%.
[00:45:21.560 --> 00:45:26.200] I have definitely felt that come back to bite us in the ass as we've gone along.
[00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:29.320] But the world is so inundated with stuff.
[00:45:29.320 --> 00:45:49.120] And this is actually a conversation I'm going to be bringing up in the next couple of episodes because I do think that this is part of a larger shift that online business in general is seeing, which is going to be the next sort of juicy Emily spill the tea episode as to what it is that I'm seeing on the large scale in the online business industries.
[00:45:50.080 --> 00:46:01.760] But this is part of a larger problem: there's too many people on the internet doing too much stuff, giving too much stuff away for free, and also asking you to pay for way too much stuff.
[00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:14.400] And that I don't want to play that game anymore is really where I am because it is, it is like I said in the last episode, like pulling teeth, like pulling teeth.
[00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:20.080] And so the team and I have gone back many times into then what does it look like?
[00:46:20.080 --> 00:46:28.240] Then how do we create this content, show up all these things in a way that feeds something, right?
[00:46:28.240 --> 00:46:45.280] It's either feeding our creative spirits, which this hasn't in a while for that, because of that box that I was just mentioning, or it feeds our bank accounts, which at Being Boss, it has not in the same way in probably the last year plus.
[00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:46.960] Since I left.
[00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:49.360] No, I'm just kidding.
[00:46:49.680 --> 00:46:51.600] Unfortunately, no, Kathleen.
[00:46:52.560 --> 00:46:55.440] Being boss has gone on to make some really great money.
[00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:56.000] No, I know.
[00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:56.800] And you know what?
[00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:01.280] I was going to say that in our last episode is you got a really big contract right after I left.
[00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:12.000] And it's easy to be like, oh, but that's whenever you know that you are out, is whenever in the good times and the bad times, your decision is the same.
[00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:19.920] So if you're having a hard time making a decision, think about if you got paid a million dollars to do that thing, would you still be out?
[00:47:20.560 --> 00:47:23.200] And if the answer is yes, then you're out.
[00:47:23.200 --> 00:47:23.680] Yeah.
[00:47:23.680 --> 00:47:27.120] So anyway, all that to say, I know, I know it wasn't me.
[00:47:27.120 --> 00:47:31.160] But I do really quickly also want to say about the giving it all away for free hasn't worked for you.
[00:47:31.400 --> 00:47:42.680] It has worked for me, and the back catalog of being boss continues to work for me because I've been able to position myself as an expert in the service that I provide, which is branding and graphic design.
[00:47:42.680 --> 00:47:45.080] And it's still like a tangible thing.
[00:47:45.080 --> 00:47:49.880] I think it just depends on what your business model is on the giving it all away for free part of it.
[00:47:49.880 --> 00:47:59.720] And I have to say, Emily, I don't know that with you really focusing on Almanac now, that that was still a bad decision.
[00:47:59.720 --> 00:48:01.640] It just seems like a really big pivot.
[00:48:01.640 --> 00:48:14.920] Like, you know, giving it all away for free, you can't give crystals away for free, but there's still something that you can give that is probably going to support Almanac in a way that might be generous.
[00:48:15.080 --> 00:48:21.960] It might have something to do with where the podcast is going, you know.
[00:48:21.960 --> 00:48:32.680] Settling yourself into the flow of your business from navigating a whole year of ebbs and flows to embracing the energy of each and every day, you're bound to have some ups and downs along the way.
[00:48:32.680 --> 00:48:38.120] For me, this journey of entrepreneurship is made better when my space keeps me focused and inspired.
[00:48:38.120 --> 00:48:47.320] As an example, my favorite way to mark the beginning and ending of the workday is to light a candle when I sit down at my desk and then blow it out when I'm done for the day.
[00:48:47.320 --> 00:48:52.920] It's a little ritual that creates boundaries and a vibe that keeps me focused and feeling cozy.
[00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:55.720] And the ritual candle that we make at Almanac Supply Co.
[00:48:55.720 --> 00:48:57.480] is my favorite for this.
[00:48:57.480 --> 00:49:11.720] In fact, my whole shop is filled with items that I've curated to create the vibe for feeling connected, in flow, and inspired with candles, crystals, and other goodies to help you create a dreamy workspace, bedside table, or bookshelf.
[00:49:11.720 --> 00:49:23.120] Come gather inspiration and check out my favorite in-stagram items at almanacsupplycode.com/slash beanboss and get 15% off with code beanboss at checkout.
[00:49:23.120 --> 00:49:27.600] That's almanacsupplycode.com/slash beanboss.
[00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:35.840] It definitely does, but also in the store, people come in and they're like, ooh, this is great.
[00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:37.920] I'm like, yeah, vibes are free.
[00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:38.800] Right.
[00:49:41.040 --> 00:49:44.480] So, like, there is an essence of giving, like, that is marketing, right?
[00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:49.040] To some extent, marketing is giving something away for free.
[00:49:49.040 --> 00:49:53.280] But, and it's not so much like a one-on-one person giving things away.
[00:49:53.280 --> 00:49:57.760] Like, no one, or I think very few of us are actually giving everything away for free.
[00:49:57.760 --> 00:49:58.080] Right.
[00:49:58.080 --> 00:50:02.080] The problem is, the entirety of the internet is filled with free shit.
[00:50:02.080 --> 00:50:02.240] Right.
[00:50:02.560 --> 00:50:09.120] And more, like, multiple times more now than it was eight, nine years ago when we got started.
[00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:10.160] Right.
[00:50:10.160 --> 00:50:12.960] Like, it is just a come, yeah, it is.
[00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:13.520] Yeah.
[00:50:13.520 --> 00:50:17.520] It is a completely different environment.
[00:50:17.520 --> 00:50:22.560] And I think I keep coming back to that because that really is what this decision is around.
[00:50:23.200 --> 00:50:40.320] The environment is so different that this model is not working in the same way that it was then, nor in enough of a way that I care that, or like it even, no, I do care, or even in enough of a way that it makes sense to continue it in this way.
[00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:45.760] This is like a smart business decision to do the pivot that we're doing.
[00:50:45.760 --> 00:51:09.720] And the pivot that we're doing, if we do it in the way that, you know, we have it sort of half-baked in our head at the moment, it will be about giving it away for free in support of something incredibly tangible that makes conversions and therefore it filling some cup way easier than come by my other course or join another online community.
[00:51:09.720 --> 00:51:30.760] Sorry, that is a garbage truck driving by, or whatever the other sort of intangible thing is that people who are engaging in online content is just sick and tired of in a very real way that has sort of created this negative feedback loop of what creating content in this way has sort of shaken out to be.
[00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:31.080] All right.
[00:51:31.080 --> 00:51:32.520] So what's it going to be?
[00:51:32.520 --> 00:51:34.200] What are you doing?
[00:51:35.800 --> 00:51:37.800] Well, I don't know yet.
[00:51:39.080 --> 00:51:40.440] Well, I do know.
[00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:41.240] I do know.
[00:51:41.240 --> 00:51:43.400] I, again, half-baked ideas.
[00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:51.480] I don't want to share too much terribly yet because the team and I have decided we've tried to like sit down.
[00:51:51.480 --> 00:52:01.320] We've had some early conversations, obviously, over the course of the past six to nine months in particular as to what is the future of being boss.
[00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:09.320] Like if what we're doing in this space is not working and not even not working in terms of we do SEO work and nothing happens.
[00:52:09.320 --> 00:52:11.880] We have this big guest and nothing is happening.
[00:52:11.880 --> 00:52:20.840] We're like doing the things that we're supposed to do and it's not doing what we need it to do, then how do we change it?
[00:52:20.840 --> 00:52:22.040] What does it look like?
[00:52:22.040 --> 00:52:38.760] And we, so we know what the shift is generally going to be, but we've also made a very conscious decision that we will not sit down and figure it out, like really put it on paper, know exactly what's going to happen next until this phase is done.
[00:52:38.760 --> 00:52:41.000] So, I'm doing these two episodes with you.
[00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:44.200] I'm doing two episodes with Tasha and Erica very soon.
[00:52:44.200 --> 00:52:48.000] And then I'm doing one sort of solo episode to finish this out.
[00:52:48.320 --> 00:53:01.440] And then the team and I have a number of consecutive meetings on the books immediately after that to finally flesh everything out and understand what's happening.
[00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:06.400] And the types of content that we're dreaming up are unlike anything you've ever seen here.
[00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:12.400] The publishing schedules for them are going to be unlike anything you've ever seen in a podcast.
[00:53:12.400 --> 00:53:19.680] Um, and we're breaking them old and really just sitting down and thinking, what kind of content do we want to make?
[00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:23.600] Forget it if half of our audience are just pissed off at us about it.
[00:53:23.600 --> 00:53:24.640] Like, don't care.
[00:53:24.640 --> 00:53:27.200] No offense to you all, but don't care.
[00:53:27.200 --> 00:53:34.560] We are going to create this content for us and for the brand that we all love working on.
[00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:53.920] And, two, how can we like what sort of schedule will keep me in particular from feeling bogged down by constantly showing up or in the same way that I have constantly showing up for this show over the past couple of, like, really 12 to 18 months?
[00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:56.160] This has become really difficult to me.
[00:53:56.160 --> 00:54:02.800] And really, really, how do we actually get truer to the being boss values?
[00:54:02.800 --> 00:54:18.160] Because as we've put ourselves in this box of keeping our audience happy so that their numbers stay up, so that our sponsors are happy, we have inadvertently sort of separated ourselves a bit from our values.
[00:54:18.160 --> 00:54:20.560] And then one of the biggest ones is creativity.
[00:54:20.560 --> 00:54:26.480] When for real is the last time anything creative was done on this show?
[00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:36.200] And you could argue all of them are, but it's also all the same, more or less, because you don't want to piss off your audience because they need to know what to expect.
[00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:38.520] And you have to have the big names.
[00:54:38.520 --> 00:54:41.480] You have to like make your sponsors happy.
[00:54:41.480 --> 00:54:43.080] You have to post regularly.
[00:54:43.080 --> 00:54:44.760] You have to have these specific links.
[00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:53.640] Like the heart of creativity has been gone in a way that I didn't really think about until we started thinking about how to be creative with the show.
[00:54:53.640 --> 00:55:03.640] And creativity is one of those core tenets that we have sort of lost along the way in order to like stay safe in this online content creation world.
[00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:16.760] And if I don't have to worry about anyone else giving me money or giving me money to create this content, and I can, you know, quote unquote sponsor it myself, then I can do whatever I want.
[00:55:16.760 --> 00:55:20.760] And that's what I really want people to sort of settle on.
[00:55:20.760 --> 00:55:22.360] I don't know how we were going to go.
[00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:24.440] I don't know really exactly what that looks like.
[00:55:24.440 --> 00:55:27.800] There's a couple of like hardcore ideas floating around.
[00:55:27.800 --> 00:55:32.120] Don't like get stuck on that yet because we have not shaken it out just yet.
[00:55:32.120 --> 00:55:45.720] What I do want you to know is we are going to be like letting our creative souls shine when it comes to creating what's next, breaking the mold, forgetting the formulas, and really just doing something different.
[00:55:46.360 --> 00:55:47.000] All right.
[00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:49.480] Well, I guess this is goodbye.
[00:55:49.480 --> 00:55:50.920] Oh my God.
[00:55:53.480 --> 00:55:56.840] So, okay, I'm going to pitch this to you right now, though.
[00:55:56.840 --> 00:55:57.240] Okay.
[00:55:57.240 --> 00:55:58.680] Can I pitch this to you right now?
[00:55:58.680 --> 00:55:59.240] Please do.
[00:55:59.480 --> 00:56:02.200] If it's just my feed and I can do whatever the fuck I want.
[00:56:02.200 --> 00:56:02.680] Yeah.
[00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:03.640] Right.
[00:56:04.520 --> 00:56:10.120] I say we do occasional bouts of the Emily and Kathleen show.
[00:56:10.120 --> 00:56:11.880] Yes, 100%.
[00:56:11.880 --> 00:56:13.000] Yes, I do.
[00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:14.080] I do.
[00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:17.360] Right.
[00:56:13.560 --> 00:56:20.400] Let's talk about fashion and lip balm.
[00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:21.920] Okay.
[00:56:21.920 --> 00:56:22.320] Okay.
[00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:23.600] The Kathleen and Emily show.
[00:56:23.600 --> 00:56:25.280] Like, people are really going to see it.
[00:56:25.280 --> 00:56:27.760] Like, like the real.
[00:56:28.080 --> 00:56:29.040] Can.
[00:56:29.360 --> 00:56:30.000] Yeah.
[00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:30.480] Okay.
[00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:30.880] Yeah.
[00:56:30.880 --> 00:56:31.360] Why not?
[00:56:31.920 --> 00:56:37.040] Like, if, if, if it really isn't about making anybody happy except ourselves, right?
[00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:37.840] Yeah.
[00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:38.880] At all.
[00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:39.360] Yeah.
[00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:41.440] What, like, what would it be?
[00:56:41.440 --> 00:56:43.920] And how much fun would that be?
[00:56:44.720 --> 00:56:45.840] So much fun.
[00:56:45.840 --> 00:56:47.200] I'm in it.
[00:56:47.520 --> 00:56:52.480] I will sit here on a microphone and talk to you anytime.
[00:56:52.480 --> 00:56:53.200] I know.
[00:56:53.520 --> 00:56:54.080] I know.
[00:56:54.080 --> 00:56:56.080] And we can take all the pressure off of it.
[00:56:56.080 --> 00:57:04.960] As long as Corey's still editing and I can still help this out, though, because this is just us.
[00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:05.360] Right?
[00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:08.560] No one needs to know this shit, but Emily.
[00:57:08.880 --> 00:57:10.080] Here's the tea.
[00:57:10.080 --> 00:57:12.320] No, absolutely.
[00:57:12.320 --> 00:57:15.600] I think I'm so excited about what's happening next.
[00:57:15.600 --> 00:57:19.120] And though, as we were getting on, and I was like, are you ready for the last one?
[00:57:19.120 --> 00:57:28.080] I don't want this to be the last one because in the future of what this feed is, I want to go back in some instances, like little mini series, right?
[00:57:28.080 --> 00:57:34.080] Little mini series of what you and I most wanted to do, right?
[00:57:34.080 --> 00:57:36.640] Which is the Emily and Kathleen show.
[00:57:36.640 --> 00:57:39.040] I love you, Emily Thompson.
[00:57:39.680 --> 00:57:41.440] Ditto, Kathleen.
[00:57:43.360 --> 00:57:44.960] So this is not the last.
[00:57:45.680 --> 00:57:47.120] It's not the last for you and I.
[00:57:47.120 --> 00:57:55.120] And for everyone who is listening to this, there are a couple more episodes coming because I'm not quite done really giving you what I need to give you before I move on.
[00:57:55.200 --> 00:58:04.440] I've got a few more of those sponsor dollars to cash in on a couple more contracts to finish out for sure.
[00:58:05.160 --> 00:58:09.720] Just burn down that bridge all the way in this episode.
[00:58:10.360 --> 00:58:10.920] Right?
[00:58:10.920 --> 00:58:12.440] I mean, I hope not.
[00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:14.200] It's Shopify, y'all.
[00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:15.480] I use them at Almanac.
[00:58:15.480 --> 00:58:25.320] It is the most inline business sponsor crossover I could ever accept dollar bills for, especially.
[00:58:25.720 --> 00:58:33.800] But no, I will be back for a couple more really juicy episodes to talk a bit more about this process and really what's next.
[00:58:33.800 --> 00:58:46.680] And I think the real meat of what is coming is basically what we've done today with this like podcasting conversation of like what is happening in the industry and how things have changed and how that has played into this decision.
[00:58:46.680 --> 00:59:01.480] I have just as juicy, if not more so, bit about online business and where it is that I have seen things shifting and changing, especially as I straddle the fence between online and offline and have otherwise been in this space for over 15 years.
[00:59:02.120 --> 00:59:08.440] Where I've been having some conversations with my friends and we're going to be sharing it here in those coming episodes.
[00:59:08.440 --> 00:59:10.040] So don't unsubscribe yet.
[00:59:10.040 --> 00:59:14.360] Don't ever unsubscribe, but at least wait till the next couple of episodes before you do that.
[00:59:15.080 --> 00:59:19.880] And then that is it for Emily and Kathleen on the regular Being Boss show.
[00:59:19.880 --> 00:59:21.320] Thanks, honey.
[00:59:22.280 --> 00:59:23.720] I've loved it.
[00:59:23.720 --> 00:59:25.800] It's been a good time.
[00:59:25.800 --> 00:59:26.440] It has.
[00:59:26.440 --> 00:59:27.960] Until it wasn't.
[00:59:27.960 --> 00:59:29.080] Until it wasn't.
[00:59:29.080 --> 00:59:29.480] And then it wasn't.
[00:59:29.640 --> 00:59:31.720] Until it was a really bad time.
[00:59:32.360 --> 00:59:33.080] Yes.
[00:59:33.720 --> 00:59:34.680] All right, Kathleen.
[00:59:34.680 --> 00:59:36.120] One last time.
[00:59:36.600 --> 00:59:39.800] We're going to do this again, but for the sake of this, one last time.
[00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:42.280] What's making you feel most boss?
[00:59:42.920 --> 00:59:45.280] Well, hmm.
[00:59:45.920 --> 00:59:48.880] What's making me feel most boss?
[00:59:44.840 --> 00:59:51.280] Okay, this one's really personal.
[00:59:52.240 --> 00:59:56.080] And I almost am uncomfortable.
[00:59:57.760 --> 00:59:58.960] I'm not going to share it.
[00:59:58.960 --> 01:00:00.480] That's what's making me feel boss.
[01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:05.840] There's something that happened recently.
[01:00:06.160 --> 01:00:10.240] And if I share it, it defeats the whole purpose of having done it.
[01:00:10.560 --> 01:00:14.240] But I did something recently that makes me feel really boss.
[01:00:14.560 --> 01:00:26.320] And what is so magical about this is, Kathleen, you've always been so transparent that it feels like a very boss evolution for you to be like, and I'm going to keep it to my fucking self.
[01:00:26.320 --> 01:00:27.360] I appreciate you saying that.
[01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:30.320] I thought you were about to say, like, no, this does not count as an answer.
[01:00:30.320 --> 01:00:31.520] Come up with something else.
[01:00:31.520 --> 01:00:37.280] Like, if the thing that's making you feel boss you can't talk about, then you need to say something else.
[01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:44.800] But what, how fitting for the last episode of being boss to say that the thing that's making me feel most boss, I've chosen not to talk about.
[01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:46.960] I mean, that is like monumental.
[01:00:46.960 --> 01:00:49.280] It is not lost on me at all.
[01:00:49.280 --> 01:00:50.880] I love this for you.
[01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:52.160] Good job, Kathleen.
[01:00:52.160 --> 01:00:54.880] Zoloft for everyone.
[01:00:59.680 --> 01:01:02.400] Absolutely everyone.
[01:01:02.400 --> 01:01:03.920] No, I think that's a perfect answer.
[01:01:03.920 --> 01:01:04.560] Thank you.
[01:01:04.560 --> 01:01:06.160] How about you, Emily?
[01:01:06.160 --> 01:01:08.800] What's making you feel most boss right now?
[01:01:08.800 --> 01:01:18.800] What's making me feel most boss is definitely how at peace I feel with this decision to make this pivot, to take a break of record, because that's a thing.
[01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:22.240] I haven't, there will be a break in recording for a while.
[01:01:22.240 --> 01:01:34.600] We're going to, for the first time in eight and a half years, there will not be a new episode of Being Boss for a couple of weeks while we figure out everything we're doing and get sort of things lined up and feel like.
[01:01:29.680 --> 01:01:39.400] I like how you say a couple of weeks, like a couple of weeks is a break.
[01:01:39.400 --> 01:01:40.200] Try two months.
[01:01:40.680 --> 01:01:41.640] It'll be months.
[01:01:41.960 --> 01:01:43.240] No, no, actually, it will be.
[01:01:43.240 --> 01:01:45.240] It'll be like two and a half months, if I'm not mistaken.
[01:01:45.240 --> 01:01:47.000] So it's like, it's a good break.
[01:01:47.000 --> 01:01:47.960] It's a good break.
[01:01:47.960 --> 01:01:50.120] B

Prompt 2: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 3: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 4: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Prompt 5: Context Setup

You are an expert data extractor tasked with analyzing a podcast transcript. 
I will provide you with part 2 of 2 from a podcast transcript. 
I will then ask you to extract different types of information from this content in subsequent messages. Please confirm you have received and understood the transcript content.

Transcript section:
s an answer.
[01:00:30.320 --> 01:00:31.520] Come up with something else.
[01:00:31.520 --> 01:00:37.280] Like, if the thing that's making you feel boss you can't talk about, then you need to say something else.
[01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:44.800] But what, how fitting for the last episode of being boss to say that the thing that's making me feel most boss, I've chosen not to talk about.
[01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:46.960] I mean, that is like monumental.
[01:00:46.960 --> 01:00:49.280] It is not lost on me at all.
[01:00:49.280 --> 01:00:50.880] I love this for you.
[01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:52.160] Good job, Kathleen.
[01:00:52.160 --> 01:00:54.880] Zoloft for everyone.
[01:00:59.680 --> 01:01:02.400] Absolutely everyone.
[01:01:02.400 --> 01:01:03.920] No, I think that's a perfect answer.
[01:01:03.920 --> 01:01:04.560] Thank you.
[01:01:04.560 --> 01:01:06.160] How about you, Emily?
[01:01:06.160 --> 01:01:08.800] What's making you feel most boss right now?
[01:01:08.800 --> 01:01:18.800] What's making me feel most boss is definitely how at peace I feel with this decision to make this pivot, to take a break of record, because that's a thing.
[01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:22.240] I haven't, there will be a break in recording for a while.
[01:01:22.240 --> 01:01:34.600] We're going to, for the first time in eight and a half years, there will not be a new episode of Being Boss for a couple of weeks while we figure out everything we're doing and get sort of things lined up and feel like.
[01:01:29.680 --> 01:01:39.400] I like how you say a couple of weeks, like a couple of weeks is a break.
[01:01:39.400 --> 01:01:40.200] Try two months.
[01:01:40.680 --> 01:01:41.640] It'll be months.
[01:01:41.960 --> 01:01:43.240] No, no, actually, it will be.
[01:01:43.240 --> 01:01:45.240] It'll be like two and a half months, if I'm not mistaken.
[01:01:45.240 --> 01:01:47.000] So it's like, it's a good break.
[01:01:47.000 --> 01:01:47.960] It's a good break.
[01:01:47.960 --> 01:01:50.120] Because, girls, I need it.
[01:01:50.600 --> 01:01:52.360] Absolutely need it.
[01:01:53.080 --> 01:01:58.200] So it will be like a two and a half, maybe even three month break, depending on how everything shakes out.
[01:01:58.840 --> 01:02:02.440] So for me, it's definitely how I piece with this, I feel.
[01:02:02.440 --> 01:02:04.760] This has been a long time coming.
[01:02:05.000 --> 01:02:10.360] I mentioned previously that I knew that something was happening a whole year ago.
[01:02:10.360 --> 01:02:12.040] I was like, this is a decision I'm making.
[01:02:12.120 --> 01:02:14.280] It was not something I made rashly.
[01:02:14.280 --> 01:02:17.640] I did not sort of shut everything down immediately as soon as I felt it.
[01:02:17.640 --> 01:02:19.720] I knew this was something that I wanted to keep and do.
[01:02:19.720 --> 01:02:29.960] And I talked to the team and I've talked to my friends and I've like really sort of gotten to this place and I feel like I'm doing it so responsibly, as responsibly as I care to do it.
[01:02:30.120 --> 01:02:30.760] How about that?
[01:02:30.760 --> 01:02:42.760] For both the sake of our audience and our community, but also me and the team and, you know, all the things in a way that I'm making this really big decision and I feel fine with it, like whatever.
[01:02:42.760 --> 01:02:58.120] I mean, not like whatever and like I don't care, but I have so processed all of this stuff in such a way that it feels incredibly boss to be at this place where I'm sharing with you all all these big crazy things and you're all like shocked and appalled and I'm just like, yeah, it'll be fine, y'all.
[01:02:58.120 --> 01:02:59.800] Let's just move on.
[01:02:59.800 --> 01:03:05.720] This is, I do not feel emotional around something that I think a lot of people would feel incredibly emotional.
[01:03:05.720 --> 01:03:08.680] I've worked through it all and I'm ready to just take the steps.
[01:03:08.680 --> 01:03:09.960] That feels boss.
[01:03:10.280 --> 01:03:11.880] How about that, Kathleen?
[01:03:11.880 --> 01:03:13.640] You ready to say last goodbyes?
[01:03:13.640 --> 01:03:16.240] Obviously, next time it'll be the Emily Kathleen show.
[01:03:16.240 --> 01:03:20.480] But oh my gosh, is it going to be like, wait, how does that?
[01:03:14.920 --> 01:03:22.240] We'll have to talk about it later.
[01:03:22.560 --> 01:03:26.000] I want to sit in on these conversations of what this thing is going to be.
[01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:27.760] I just want to be a fly on the wall.
[01:03:29.520 --> 01:03:32.960] You've never been a fly ever, but if you want to, I love them.
[01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:36.400] I mean, with this newfound mysteriousness that I've got.
[01:03:36.720 --> 01:03:38.320] I know you could.
[01:03:38.640 --> 01:03:40.400] Wait, what was the question?
[01:03:40.560 --> 01:03:40.960] I don't think so.
[01:03:41.120 --> 01:03:42.720] Was there a question?
[01:03:44.560 --> 01:03:45.920] See you later.
[01:03:46.880 --> 01:03:48.400] This is where it's really hard to say.
[01:03:48.640 --> 01:03:52.000] Oh, are we all on the phone not trying not to say goodbye to each other?
[01:03:52.320 --> 01:03:54.880] Yeah, that's what we're doing.
[01:03:55.520 --> 01:03:59.680] This is the longest goodbye we've ever had because it's like, okay.
[01:03:59.680 --> 01:04:00.560] Okay, you ready?
[01:04:00.560 --> 01:04:01.360] I guess this is it.
[01:04:01.760 --> 01:04:02.720] I guess I need to go down.
[01:04:02.800 --> 01:04:04.080] I'm going to go to the count of three.
[01:04:04.080 --> 01:04:04.560] Okay.
[01:04:04.560 --> 01:04:05.200] Okay.
[01:04:05.200 --> 01:04:08.000] One, two, three.
[01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:08.640] Bye.
[01:04:12.240 --> 01:04:16.880] Decor for your office, gifts for your clients, celebrations for your own job.
[01:04:16.880 --> 01:04:17.600] Well done.
[01:04:17.600 --> 01:04:30.640] Find it all and more in our handmade candles and carefully curated collection of crystals and gifts at almanacsupplyco.com/slash being boss and get 15% off with code beingboss at checkout.
[01:04:30.640 --> 01:04:34.720] That's almanacsupplycode.com/slash being boss.
[01:04:34.720 --> 01:04:37.360] Now, until next time, do the work.
[01:04:37.360 --> 01:04:38.560] Be boss.

Prompt 6: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 7: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 8: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Full Transcript

[00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:07.360] Look, payday is awesome, but running payroll, calculating taxes and deductions, staying compliant, that's not easy.
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[00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:18.400] Gusto gets your team paid while automatically filing your payroll taxes.
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[00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:28.320] We love it so much, we really do use it ourselves.
[00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:34.720] And we have four years, and I personally recommend you give it a try, no matter how small your business is.
[00:00:34.720 --> 00:00:38.880] And to sweeten the deal, just for listening today, you also get three months free.
[00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:41.360] Go to gusto.com/slash beingboss.
[00:00:41.360 --> 00:00:45.200] That's gusto.com/slash beingboss.
[00:00:46.800 --> 00:00:53.760] Welcome to Being Boss, a podcast for creatives, business owners, and entrepreneurs who want to take control of their work and live life on their own terms.
[00:00:53.760 --> 00:01:09.280] I'm your host, Emily Thompson, and in this episode, I'm joined by my friend Kathleen Shannon to dive into what's up in the podcasting industry, sharing how this space has changed over the past almost decade and how it's played into the changes coming here to Being Boss.
[00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:14.720] You can find all the tools, books, and links we reference on the show notes at www.beingboss.club.
[00:01:14.720 --> 00:01:19.440] And if you like this episode, be sure to subscribe to the show and share us with a friend.
[00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:26.160] Kathleen Shannon is the co-founder and former co-host of the Being Boss podcast.
[00:01:26.160 --> 00:01:32.160] Joining me here for the first 240-ish episodes of this show with several one-off episodes since.
[00:01:32.160 --> 00:01:39.680] Kathleen is a partner and creative director of Braid Creative, a branding agency she founded with her sister over 10 years ago.
[00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:48.400] Kathleen has always lived by capturing, shaping, and sharing who she is, whether that's with a blog post, a podcast, or on social media.
[00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:56.400] You know, I used to think that those bald lip bombs meant that like you were hot shit.
[00:01:56.400 --> 00:01:57.200] Oh, yeah?
[00:01:57.200 --> 00:01:57.840] Yeah.
[00:01:58.160 --> 00:01:59.680] As I'm putting one on right now.
[00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:00.680] I know.
[00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:05.960] As I hit record, I realized I needed to moisturize my lips a little bit and we got tickled and here we are.
[00:02:06.280 --> 00:02:11.080] But now that I'm older, it just seems inefficient.
[00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:11.640] It is.
[00:02:11.640 --> 00:02:14.440] And it's like maybe a little gross.
[00:02:14.440 --> 00:02:15.080] Yeah.
[00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:16.280] You know, I know.
[00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:21.400] I got this one at the holiday, like across the street from my office here is Walgreens.
[00:02:21.720 --> 00:02:27.480] And it was like a fun, like little peppermint like holiday one.
[00:02:27.480 --> 00:02:30.680] And I was, I went over there specifically for some lip balm.
[00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:36.360] I could not find any except for two little peppermint balls, basically.
[00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:39.800] And it sits here on my desk and it kind of grosses me out, but I need it.
[00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:41.240] So here I am.
[00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:44.360] The very best lip balm.
[00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:47.720] This is this podcast is turning into a beauty podcast.
[00:02:47.720 --> 00:02:49.320] Let me tell you all the things.
[00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:51.480] I got the secret.
[00:02:51.640 --> 00:02:53.480] Here's the secret.
[00:02:54.440 --> 00:02:59.240] I'm holding Beatbox hostage and I'm turning it into a beauty podcast.
[00:03:00.040 --> 00:03:01.240] Aquaphor.
[00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:07.800] You can use just like regular Aquaphor on your lips, but they also specifically make an Aquaphor lip balm.
[00:03:08.040 --> 00:03:17.320] Just slather it on before you go to bed and put it like really not just on the lip part of your lips, but all the way around, like over lower half of your face.
[00:03:17.640 --> 00:03:21.960] Kind of just smother the whole lower half of your face with it.
[00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:24.520] Really just smother your whole face with it.
[00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:26.040] Yeah, just all over.
[00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:27.800] I recently discovered that Dr.
[00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:29.960] Bronner's, you know, that Castile Soap?
[00:03:29.960 --> 00:03:30.280] Yeah.
[00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:34.920] Like pseudo witchy or whatever company.
[00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:36.120] Colty.
[00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:37.480] Pseudo started making a lip balm.
[00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:40.040] No, actual cultie.
[00:03:40.040 --> 00:03:40.600] Yeah.
[00:03:40.600 --> 00:03:41.800] Pseudo witchy.
[00:03:41.800 --> 00:03:42.520] Gotcha.
[00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:43.520] Gotcha.
[00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:48.400] They started making a lip balm, and that is also fantastic.
[00:03:48.720 --> 00:03:51.840] Is it in a sleek stick?
[00:03:52.160 --> 00:03:56.080] Okay, I'm like now exclusively tube lip balm.
[00:03:56.080 --> 00:03:58.400] Like I need it coming out of the tube.
[00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:07.200] Oh, I feel like the sticks just aren't enough for this, you know, cold, cold north winter.
[00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:08.000] Okay.
[00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:12.400] I need a hijacking this back.
[00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:12.880] Okay, yeah.
[00:04:12.880 --> 00:04:13.440] You ready?
[00:04:13.440 --> 00:04:14.480] Bring it back.
[00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:15.840] Hello, everyone.
[00:04:17.440 --> 00:04:20.080] Here, that was our little cold intro.
[00:04:20.320 --> 00:04:23.200] We're talking about podcasts today.
[00:04:23.520 --> 00:04:28.720] Podcast and lip balm, because they do go hand in hand in a lot of ways, right?
[00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:33.520] When you're sitting here talking into a microphone constantly, you have to have hydrated lips.
[00:04:33.520 --> 00:04:34.640] Absolutely, you do.
[00:04:34.640 --> 00:04:37.280] That's how we got this started today.
[00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:48.880] So you were on yesterday as of our experience of this, but last week, as of the audience's experience of what has happened, we talked about.
[00:04:49.200 --> 00:04:53.200] We talked about how you have some tea to spill about some podcast industry.
[00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:55.600] Kathleen's like, let's hope that you're not going to be able to.
[00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:57.920] We don't need a recap for them.
[00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:01.200] What is going on with podcasting, Emily?
[00:05:01.520 --> 00:05:03.520] It's falling apart, everybody.
[00:05:03.520 --> 00:05:08.160] It is falling apart in some really interesting ways.
[00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:15.760] And I'm really excited to dive into it because this needs to be shared from a couple of standpoints.
[00:05:15.760 --> 00:05:24.960] One, I feel like advertising always is a little bit of like a sort of behind the scenes, like you don't really know what's happening, but it's obviously always in your face.
[00:05:24.960 --> 00:07:05.520] And podcasting, we've seen, we've watched literally every step of like podcast advertising along the way from when we got our first sponsor over eight years ago when no one was really sponsoring podcasts yet to now what the the advertising industry has become and how that has affected and otherwise plays hand in hand with how audiences have changed and how that's affecting how people are creating content and where in business models podcasts exist now and what that all means for indie shows because spoiler i think we're about to start seeing the end of indie podcasting in a very real way which i think everyone can kind of smell in the context of literally this conversation of this business the backbone of which has been a podcast for so long cannot sustain as it is because you cannot have a podcasting business in this way anymore say more about that well first say more about what an indie podcast is like what how do you and what's not an indie podcast how do you differentiate well there's a couple it's like it's it's a it's a malleable definition it's more of like a venn diagram if you will where think of a large brand or a large network or production company is producing a non-indie podcast right they're putting a whole lot of money into a show a lot of money and resources to create a show whatever whatever that is um big production.
[00:07:05.520 --> 00:07:10.000] Indie shows are shows that are not big productions.
[00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:19.600] It's like it's a person or two people or a very small team who are just producing one, two, maybe a handful of shows, but they're not huge productions.
[00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:27.280] Or what you're seeing more and more of now is how podcasting has become an advertising arm of other smaller companies.
[00:07:27.280 --> 00:07:29.600] Those are kind of indie as well, though.
[00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:33.840] I don't think really that's sort of the middle of that Venn diagram, right?
[00:07:34.080 --> 00:07:44.000] Where it's not podcasting for podcasting's sake as much as it is podcasting for a brand, which is how it is that Being Boss started.
[00:07:44.000 --> 00:08:00.960] Being Boss started as a show that you and I were creating as a marketing arm, sort of between our two companies, but we were also doing it for the content as equally, if not maybe more so, than as a marketing arm of our two individual companies.
[00:08:00.960 --> 00:08:10.800] Well, for sure, anytime you're doing anything, and we've talked about this many times on Being Boss, you have to understand how you're being compensated, whether it's creatively, financially, whatever that looks like.
[00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:14.480] We both had a ton of experience in creating content.
[00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:16.320] We'd been blogging for years.
[00:08:16.320 --> 00:08:19.840] I think that you all, if you're still here, you know the story.
[00:08:19.840 --> 00:08:26.560] And then we happened to start podcasting as a way to establish our personal brands and to market our businesses.
[00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:33.200] That was how we planned on being compensated for creating the kind of valuable content that we were creating.
[00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:45.200] It accidentally turned into an advertising platform whenever other brands wanted to buy space on our podcast to share their brand.
[00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:48.560] And that's the difference between marketing and advertising.
[00:08:48.560 --> 00:08:53.920] So, marketing is whenever you are sharing what it is that you have to sell out in the world.
[00:08:53.920 --> 00:09:03.080] Advertising can be part of marketing, but advertising is specifically buying space on other people's shows or platforms or whatever.
[00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:28.520] And as you kind of really dive into the advertising world, which I can speak to because my company is primarily branding and marketing, but we do have a big advertising part of what we do where we are buying media on shows, on Google, on digital advertising, and all of traditional media too, like billboards and bus benches and all of that stuff.
[00:09:28.520 --> 00:09:33.080] We are buying space for our clients to then advertise in those places.
[00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:48.360] So, the thing is, is like television shows, award shows, podcasts now, they're almost being created for advertising versus for the content.
[00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:53.800] Like, yeah, we're really lucky whenever we get a really good show to watch and it happens to have commercials.
[00:09:53.800 --> 00:09:55.000] But guess what?
[00:09:55.000 --> 00:10:06.200] The way that the industry has changed in media is that you can buy streaming services with no advertising, and then you truly are paying for the content itself.
[00:10:06.520 --> 00:10:11.400] Um, you can pay more to take out advertising out of YouTube, for example.
[00:10:11.400 --> 00:10:19.000] And that is what I do: I pay for everything so that I am never advertised to because I don't want to hear it.
[00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:21.640] I'm here for the content, and I'm willing to pay for it.
[00:10:21.640 --> 00:10:29.160] So, if you're not paying for it, you are the product, you are what people are selling to advertisers.
[00:10:29.160 --> 00:10:32.920] So, that's just a little like tangent on what advertising is.
[00:10:32.920 --> 00:10:41.000] And I can really see that, you know, it used to be like ABC, NBC, CBS, and we were all watching the same things, like in the 80s, right?
[00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:46.720] We were all watching ALF, we were all watching Golden Girls, we were all watching the soap operas.
[00:10:47.040 --> 00:11:00.960] And then as soon as cable came along, it kind of turned that industry on its head because people were able to pay for cable and they're now we're just paying for the content versus the advertising.
[00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:04.720] And so I think that something like that could be happening in podcasting.
[00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:08.080] I'm going to hear more of your thoughts on it, Emily, for sure.
[00:11:08.560 --> 00:11:11.520] So yeah, let's go back to you.
[00:11:11.520 --> 00:11:14.080] I'm stepping off my soapbox there.
[00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:15.440] No, that's great.
[00:11:15.680 --> 00:11:22.800] It's great to differentiate the two and understand how they work because that's what has happened in the podcasting industry.
[00:11:22.800 --> 00:11:26.720] And I remember a couple of years ago, and you'll remember this too.
[00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:39.200] We talked about it a couple of years later here on the show, but I realized that something bad was happening in the podcast industry when Spotify paid way too fucking much money to Joe Rogan for his show.
[00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:40.720] I was like, okay, okay, okay.
[00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:45.440] Like this is going in a direction that is not going to be great for indie podcasters.
[00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:47.840] And, you know, I had my rantings.
[00:11:48.560 --> 00:11:51.680] I've shared my feelings here on the show somewhere before.
[00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:57.840] I will not go back into it, but I realized that things were going in a really weird direction when big players started getting into it.
[00:11:57.840 --> 00:11:59.280] And on one hand, that's great.
[00:11:59.280 --> 00:12:05.520] We're making podcasting sort of more mainstream, which is only going to be quote unquote better for everyone who's doing it.
[00:12:05.520 --> 00:12:06.480] And all of these things.
[00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:17.360] So there were definitely some pros to it, but the cons were that advertising was coming into this space in a way that was not going to be for the creators and really, even for the audiences.
[00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:21.280] It was going to be for the people who brought the money in to do the thing.
[00:12:21.280 --> 00:12:31.080] And it was going to, I knew that it was going to snowball really quickly because podcasting is expensive to do.
[00:12:31.400 --> 00:12:38.360] It is an incredibly process-rich process, right?
[00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:52.760] There is a whole lot of that goes into producing a show, especially these days as the Disability Act has gotten into how podcasting can be presented to the world and all of these things, like, and the expectations of advertisers as well.
[00:12:52.760 --> 00:13:06.600] The production or the cost of production of shows has only gone up while the willingness of advertisers to pay for it has gone down in a really interesting way.
[00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:08.520] Like, I don't think you know this.
[00:13:08.520 --> 00:13:14.520] I don't think we've talked about it, but I'm still using the same rate sheets that we used in 2018.
[00:13:14.520 --> 00:13:19.400] And I'm getting more pushback on them now than I did in 2018.
[00:13:19.400 --> 00:13:33.240] Like, I have not been able to raise our rates in five years and still, in some cases, get a whole lot of pushback on it, even as the cost of production of this show has gone way up.
[00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:33.720] Right.
[00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:39.640] Because whenever we started in 2018, we were constantly in the top charts because guess what?
[00:13:39.640 --> 00:13:42.440] We were in the right place at the right time.
[00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:44.840] We, and don't let anyone sell you.
[00:13:44.920 --> 00:13:45.720] Doing good shit.
[00:13:45.800 --> 00:13:47.240] Doing good stuff, right?
[00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:50.200] Don't let anyone sell you on here's how to have a top podcast.
[00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:56.840] You know, it's just like anything else where you just have to show up and do the thing and constantly do it.
[00:13:56.840 --> 00:13:58.440] And that's what we were doing.
[00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:02.040] And also, it was like kind of the Wild, Wild West.
[00:14:02.040 --> 00:14:05.960] Like, advertisers didn't know really what it was worth.
[00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:10.840] So we were charging what we were worth at the time.
[00:14:10.840 --> 00:14:11.400] Yeah.
[00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:13.640] But maybe it's just not worth as much now.
[00:14:13.640 --> 00:14:14.280] Do you know what I mean?
[00:14:14.280 --> 00:14:16.080] Like, even though the cost of production.
[00:14:16.400 --> 00:14:17.520] Absolutely, it's not.
[00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:19.360] And that's that's something that I've struggled with a whole lot.
[00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:27.200] But also, I want to go back to this thing of like right time, right place, good content, top charts, because now you can buy your way onto the top charts.
[00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:32.000] Most of the shows that you see in top charts have bought their way there.
[00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:32.960] 100%.
[00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:37.760] Like, I know the people who've built the tech who have made that happen.
[00:14:37.760 --> 00:14:44.160] You paid some monies and you get all the stats that Apple wants to put you in those top charts.
[00:14:44.160 --> 00:14:47.840] So almost everyone in the top charts these days have paid to get there.
[00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:48.880] It is not right place.
[00:14:48.880 --> 00:14:49.920] It is not right time.
[00:14:49.920 --> 00:14:51.520] It is not good content.
[00:14:51.520 --> 00:14:53.840] It's money, period.
[00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:54.880] Yeah.
[00:14:54.880 --> 00:14:55.760] How does that make you feel?
[00:14:56.080 --> 00:15:05.040] Same is true for a lot of Google searches and New York Times bestsellers lists and basically, you know, being shown on social media.
[00:15:05.040 --> 00:15:08.240] Everything is kind of pay to play at this point.
[00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:12.480] Capitalism is a roaring out there.
[00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:18.800] And it really is hard for people, those of us who just want to create good content and be really creative.
[00:15:18.800 --> 00:15:20.240] It is hard.
[00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:28.560] So I hate to be discouraging, but I can't help it because this is a podcast about being boss changing.
[00:15:28.560 --> 00:15:34.400] This is a podcast about how you bought me out three years ago because I was feeling the change then.
[00:15:34.400 --> 00:15:36.320] You're feeling the change now.
[00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:39.840] So you've just got to figure out a way to make it work for you.
[00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:44.560] And what that means, I guess what I really want to say is that there is no easy way.
[00:15:44.560 --> 00:15:47.280] There is no magic bullet.
[00:15:47.280 --> 00:15:48.400] There is nothing.
[00:15:48.400 --> 00:15:54.320] Like I hear a lot of people say, I think I want to start a podcast because it seems easier than blogging.
[00:15:54.320 --> 00:16:00.040] And I think that what those people really mean to say is talking is easier than writing.
[00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:02.840] But podcasting is not easy.
[00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:03.320] No.
[00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:05.560] Blogging is not easy.
[00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:06.840] Nothing is easy.
[00:16:07.160 --> 00:16:17.320] So you need to pick the thing that is hard that you are willing to do and really stand behind, even whenever it's really hard, because that's where you're going to find success.
[00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:31.400] You're not going to find success in just trying to take the easy route or seeing what has brought other people success or what someone's trying to sell you as what will be successful.
[00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:33.320] I digress.
[00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:34.440] Right?
[00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:37.000] We're going to get really hated throughout this whole one.
[00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:43.080] Yes, and I will say that there are places for you to create content that are a little more in your favor.
[00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:51.400] And what I've just found over the years is that podcasting has become less and less in the creator's favor over and over again.
[00:16:51.400 --> 00:17:04.120] And I'm definitely, I'll call it jaded by the fact that I was able to enjoy so much of it when it was new and when it was like the golden age of podcasting or whatever.
[00:17:04.120 --> 00:17:19.400] Like I remember what that was like and how beautiful it was, how easy it was to find your people and build an audience and build relationships with those audiences and those sorts of things and really be able to focus on creating the content.
[00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:29.960] Whereas, or I'm jaded by that experience being in it now, knowing that that is no longer accessible.
[00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:36.120] And like I said, well, yesterday/slash last week, is like, this is not a sandbox that I want to play in anymore.
[00:17:36.120 --> 00:17:55.680] Of like, this is not fun for me to be in a space where I know what we're doing and I know what we can help, but knowing that I have to put in thousands, literally thousands and thousands of dollars every single month to be in the top charts, just to like have discoverability for new audiences because that's how much it costs.
[00:17:55.680 --> 00:18:07.520] And I have seen shows that are literally putting out six plus figures, like multiple six figures every six to 12 months to stay in the top charts.
[00:18:07.520 --> 00:18:15.920] Like there is that kind of money in this industry now to keep indie podcasting sort of at the bottom of the barrel.
[00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:18.000] Name names, who's paying?
[00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:23.120] Go look at the top charts and 75% of them are.
[00:18:23.120 --> 00:18:24.560] What does it rhyme with?
[00:18:24.560 --> 00:18:26.320] I'm not giving names.
[00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:29.200] What do they rhyme with?
[00:18:32.080 --> 00:18:34.000] I'm not going to be shady.
[00:18:34.560 --> 00:18:36.800] However, anybody want to come buy me a cocktail?
[00:18:36.800 --> 00:18:38.720] I will absolutely tell you in private.
[00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:39.680] How about that?
[00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:42.960] I will absolutely tell you in private.
[00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:50.400] Mostly, I'm not going to say anything super publicly, but like 75% of them are absolutely paying their way there.
[00:18:51.040 --> 00:18:52.800] And this is a product of a lot of things.
[00:18:52.800 --> 00:18:56.000] Like this is sort of where things are.
[00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:00.400] But I want to talk a little bit about how they got here.
[00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:18.720] Because what has happened over the years, and something that I felt, and I'm talking obviously very much so advertiser side of things, which I could talk about all day because it is the number one thing that is shaping this industry now is where the money is coming from because it's not coming from audiences anymore.
[00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:25.920] And this is sort of where this began: as people started creating more and more shows, and 2020 was, I think, a really big part of that.
[00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:29.960] Like, everyone started a podcast, you know, either you were baking bread or podcasting.
[00:19:28.800 --> 00:19:33.800] I was doing neither, other than the normal podcasting.
[00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:36.760] But a lot of podcasts started.
[00:19:37.080 --> 00:19:39.640] Everything got super saturated, so many shows.
[00:19:39.640 --> 00:19:45.960] And if you look at any of the stats now, there's proof that there's more advertising money and podcasting now than ever before.
[00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:48.840] Which, if you look at it like that, you're like, oh, that's great.
[00:19:48.840 --> 00:19:50.360] Podcasting is really growing.
[00:19:50.520 --> 00:19:59.160] What do you mean about that advertising money being spread over multiple times more shows than there were a couple of years ago?
[00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:04.200] You realize that it's more resources, but they're more stretched than they ever have been.
[00:20:04.840 --> 00:20:11.880] And there's a sort of war between sort of engagement and sort of visibility.
[00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:17.240] And it all stems from audiences becoming more and more stretched as well.
[00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:21.000] People are listening to more shows, not fewer shows.
[00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:26.040] Used to, everyone was listening, like the stat was like, you know, everyone is listening to four podcasts, right?
[00:20:26.040 --> 00:20:32.360] Like, how do you, you know, get garnish the attention, you know, from that being that 25% that they're listening to?
[00:20:32.360 --> 00:20:37.160] Now I think the stat is up to like nine shows or something.
[00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:40.840] And so divided attention, less engagement.
[00:20:40.840 --> 00:21:00.440] And I can think of this very sort of real world, very small scale from our experience, is we used to get so much fan mail, fan mail, and like physical things in the mail from people who were wanting to send us their book or, you know, something that they had made or they had done some artwork for us and all of these things.
[00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:10.040] And not to say that I'm here for the gifts, but it is like, it is an illustration of something where we don't get that anymore at all.
[00:21:10.040 --> 00:21:13.080] Like our audience is not engaged with us on that level.
[00:21:13.080 --> 00:21:17.600] And I'll say this too: being boss the podcast is bigger than it has ever been.
[00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:20.080] Like by far in a lot of ways.
[00:21:20.080 --> 00:21:23.840] Like we are getting more downloads than we have ever gotten before.
[00:21:23.840 --> 00:21:27.680] And the engagement is far less than it has ever been.
[00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:42.640] We were getting more engagement when we were 20% of the size that we are now than we do multiple times bigger than we were several years ago because audiences are engaging with shows differently, which says a lot for indie shows.
[00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:51.440] So those of us who do have a show, who are trying to sell digital products or experiences or whatever, we're having a harder time selling those things.
[00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:58.480] But advertisers are also having a harder time selling their things, which is making them want to pay even less for it.
[00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:04.560] And it just is this sort of trickle-down effect that has pretty much screwed over everybody.
[00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:09.360] It screws over the audience in that you have to listen to more advertising than ever before.
[00:22:09.360 --> 00:22:16.080] It screws over the creator in that no one's paying them to produce a show, not the audiences or the advertisers.
[00:22:16.080 --> 00:22:26.480] And it's screwing over the advertisers too, because they are putting a bunch of money into podcasting and have no proof of concept, which is something that I see over and over again.
[00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:32.560] We'll have advertisers very excited about coming in and sponsoring the show, but they want metrics.
[00:22:32.560 --> 00:22:34.960] They want to know how many people are converting.
[00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:38.080] You literally cannot have that data and podcast.
[00:22:38.080 --> 00:22:38.960] And not, you can't have it.
[00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:40.160] Like it is inaccessible.
[00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:45.520] There is no way to tell who listened to a show and then what they ended up going and doing.
[00:22:45.520 --> 00:22:47.120] And there's some tracking that's happening.
[00:22:47.120 --> 00:22:47.680] Absolutely.
[00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:51.200] If you don't think you're getting tracked on podcasts, you are silly.
[00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:53.120] You're 100% getting tracked.
[00:22:53.120 --> 00:23:01.160] But there are holes in the day that disconnects being able to really watch and see what conversion rates are on shows.
[00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:09.800] So it's this environment where really everything is disconnected, nothing is really working, and it's all falling apart as we go.
[00:23:13.960 --> 00:23:16.920] Is that the sweetest sound on the internet, or what?
[00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:22.920] That's the sound of another sale, another dollar, another customer on your Shopify e-commerce store.
[00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:35.400] For years, that sound has told me that I'm being boss, no matter where I am or what I'm doing, as a longtime user of Shopify, the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide.
[00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:50.840] Whether you're selling crystals and candles like me, or you're selling your artwork, your planners, your tarot decks, or your seriously cool t-shirts, Shopify simplifies selling online and in person so you can focus on successfully growing your business.
[00:23:50.840 --> 00:23:57.880] Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com/slash beingboss all lowercase.
[00:23:57.880 --> 00:24:03.400] Go to shopify.com/slash beingboss to take your business to the next level today.
[00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:06.840] Shopify.com/slash beingboss.
[00:24:15.320 --> 00:24:17.640] So I'm reading a stat right now.
[00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:20.600] And you know, it's just like on explodingtopics.com.
[00:24:20.600 --> 00:24:25.640] I don't know if this is verified, but I just googled how many podcasts are there.
[00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:32.360] There are around 150 million podcast episodes, averaging 50 episodes per podcast.
[00:24:32.360 --> 00:24:39.160] Half of all podcast episodes are downloaded less than 29 times in the first week after publishing.
[00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:46.880] So that's not great because how many episodes does Being Boss get downloaded within the first week after publishing?
[00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:49.600] I mean, in the thousands, right?
[00:24:49.840 --> 00:24:52.480] I mean, oh, yeah, yeah, like 10, 10,000.
[00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:52.720] Right.
[00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:58.720] Which is like, so, and there's it, we're one of the top 0.1%.
[00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:02.080] Top 0.1% of all shows.
[00:25:02.080 --> 00:25:09.120] And, and, like, we're not, is that's, that's like our blogs used to get more visits than that in a week, right?
[00:25:09.120 --> 00:25:17.280] Like, that is not a huge amount of downloads, um, but in the grand scheme of things, that's huge.
[00:25:17.280 --> 00:25:18.400] Right.
[00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:21.680] So, I'm still, okay, here's the deal.
[00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:25.280] I know that we just talked a lot of shit on podcasting.
[00:25:25.280 --> 00:25:29.840] I am still a proponent of being a creative, whatever that looks like for you.
[00:25:29.840 --> 00:25:33.680] If that does look like podcasting, by all means, do it.
[00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:37.840] I used to say things like, just plug in a pair of Apple headphones and you can podcast.
[00:25:37.840 --> 00:25:39.680] Nope, that's no longer.
[00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:47.360] You have to have really top-notch sound and production and a concept, and you've got to put your all into it, right?
[00:25:47.360 --> 00:25:56.480] So, after I left Being Boss, I did end up creating a podcast for Braid Creative, specifically for credit union marketers.
[00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:58.880] So, I got incredibly niched.
[00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:12.160] I knew I only wanted it to be six episodes, and it really was more of like a, I think of it almost more as a digital product that I can point people toward for free in the podcasting format.
[00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:16.640] And really, the podcast is just what made it searchable, for instance.
[00:26:16.840 --> 00:26:21.760] But really, but really something that I could send to credit union marketers and say, Hey, look, I made this thing for you.
[00:26:21.760 --> 00:26:31.640] My goal with that was to get one or two six-figure clients more than an advertiser could ever pay me for that podcast.
[00:26:31.640 --> 00:26:32.280] And guess what?
[00:26:32.280 --> 00:26:33.080] I did it.
[00:26:33.080 --> 00:26:33.960] I got it.
[00:26:29.760 --> 00:26:35.960] I got paid for that podcast and then some.
[00:26:36.040 --> 00:26:40.600] And that podcast probably cost me, I don't know, around $5,000.
[00:26:40.600 --> 00:26:43.080] We rented an actual podcast studio.
[00:26:43.080 --> 00:26:46.600] We had a sound engineer editing everything, putting it all to music.
[00:26:46.600 --> 00:26:52.840] We spent a lot of time in pre-production, six months in pre-production for six podcast episodes.
[00:26:52.840 --> 00:26:57.720] So you've got to put your all into it if you're going to do it.
[00:26:58.360 --> 00:27:02.520] And, you know, or maybe it's just a creative outlet, like try it and see what happens.
[00:27:02.520 --> 00:27:06.840] I've talked before about how I started a YouTube and I was just going to try it and see what happens.
[00:27:06.840 --> 00:27:10.760] And I've fallen off the YouTube wagon because it is a shit ton of work.
[00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:17.800] You know, as much, if not more than podcasting, because it's not just audio, now it's visual and all of the editing.
[00:27:18.120 --> 00:27:18.920] I loved it.
[00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:19.800] I loved editing.
[00:27:19.800 --> 00:27:20.840] I did it for myself.
[00:27:20.840 --> 00:27:21.480] And guess what?
[00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:29.000] Now I'm able to bring those skills to things that I'm creating for my clients that are actually paying me to do that sort of thing.
[00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:36.360] But I love doing it because I loved telling the stories and kind of creating content and just doing something creative.
[00:27:36.360 --> 00:27:41.800] So all of that to say, feel free to do a podcast if it's your creative outlet.
[00:27:41.800 --> 00:27:52.840] If you're wanting to get paid, well, I don't know, maybe start listening to another show because, or like all the other things that we've said, or like buy our book, you know, buy our book.
[00:27:52.840 --> 00:28:12.120] That's like the timeless kind of advice that we put in the Beanboss book that I think will work no matter where you are or when you are in your entrepreneurial journey, because it's basically like have boundaries, do good work, be a good person, don't get in debt.
[00:28:12.120 --> 00:28:15.280] Like, you know, it's the basics.
[00:28:15.600 --> 00:28:16.240] Yeah.
[00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:16.880] Right.
[00:28:14.840 --> 00:28:18.720] And, and that's sort of where I am.
[00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:23.360] So, what I've mentioned, what I mentioned in the last episode is like, I'm done with the podcasting industry.
[00:28:23.360 --> 00:28:25.200] Like, I'm done playing this game.
[00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:26.960] I'm done, like, being in here.
[00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:30.880] And not, I'm not done working with advertisers that it makes sense to work with.
[00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:33.840] I have ran the gamut of advertisers.
[00:28:33.840 --> 00:28:37.200] There are people that I have worked with that I would never speak to again.
[00:28:37.520 --> 00:28:41.680] And there are people and even future opportunities that I will not turn away.
[00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:44.080] There is a time and a place for everything.
[00:28:44.080 --> 00:28:49.200] But the difference is for the past several years, I have worked for advertisers.
[00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:54.800] I've had some big contracts and some things that I have had to work for and achieve.
[00:28:54.800 --> 00:29:02.240] And unfortunately, when you're working in that way, it overshadows literally everything else that you're doing.
[00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:09.680] And even as, you know, even I think, you know, there is an advertiser that was with us for years and years and years and years.
[00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:19.440] And if you've been here, you know who it is that we're talking about here who was always really great to work with until they weren't anymore.
[00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:26.400] And that was more of like a team member turnover over and over and over again.
[00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:31.760] That was a relationship thing because I have to say that advertiser, I loved them.
[00:29:31.760 --> 00:29:34.320] I loved them, the people that we were working with.
[00:29:34.320 --> 00:29:38.720] And like our, whenever it was collaborative and really good, it was really good.
[00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:44.960] I don't even know the people that you worked with after they left that position.
[00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:52.560] It was many people who did not even know what the relationship with being boss even was after doing it for years.
[00:29:52.560 --> 00:29:58.000] And like it was very badly managed in some really awful, in some really unfortunate ways.
[00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:13.240] And that sort of a thing, too, is like, you know, when you're basing your business on a couple of big contracts and then team turnover or something happens and you have your leg cut off at the knee or whatever it may be over things that you have zero control over.
[00:30:13.560 --> 00:30:21.000] And here's sort of something that I've gotten to: I think a lot of creatives or like type A entrepreneurs are going to get this.
[00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:26.840] Is I definitely felt like my fate was a little too tied to corporate America, right?
[00:30:26.840 --> 00:30:38.600] To the whims of sort of that larger scale economy, in some cases, stock portfolios, and just things that like, this is the reason why I'm not in that world.
[00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:52.600] And yet, over the years, this business model got more and more tied to that world in a way that I was absolutely at the whim of corporate America in a way that I hated.
[00:30:52.600 --> 00:30:55.480] And especially once things started shaking out.
[00:30:55.480 --> 00:31:00.600] And I will say, we've, this is unprecedented times, right?
[00:31:00.600 --> 00:31:05.480] Like pandemics, recession, crazy shit in politics.
[00:31:05.480 --> 00:31:11.480] Like it is, this has not been the easiest time in our lives to be really navigating anything.
[00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:14.520] But so I'm not blaming any one person.
[00:31:14.520 --> 00:31:31.960] It's definitely been a product of the overall environment, but it's been relentlessly difficult in a lot of ways and to the detriment of a creative project that we started to have fun, right?
[00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:32.440] Right.
[00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:54.800] And so I've definitely gotten to a place, or we got to a place, and I say we in terms of my team going through all of these things and having this fall through and that not hit the way we want and that proposal being jokingly small or whatever it may be and getting to a place of like, but what would it be like to sponsor ourselves?
[00:31:55.120 --> 00:32:10.800] What would it be like to change the way we think about this show in a way that allows us to be the people back in the driving seat of not only the creativity of it, but also the funding of it?
[00:32:10.800 --> 00:32:11.920] What would that look like?
[00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:20.320] And how would that sort of tip the scales and make this more interesting to all of us working on this project?
[00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:34.000] Because if being boss, if this show or whatever this show ends up shaping up to be like, if it is going to continue, it cannot be in the throes of the podcasting industry.
[00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:42.480] We have to take it out of that environment and put it in a place where we can foster it in the ways that we most want to.
[00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:47.200] Because there are lots of weird little things that are happening too around podcast tech.
[00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:52.320] Like this is a very tech-heavy industry in a way that it wasn't whenever you and I got started.
[00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:55.840] Ad insertions and all of those things are just getting worse.
[00:32:55.840 --> 00:33:00.880] The relationships between you and sponsors are just getting more and more displaced.
[00:33:01.120 --> 00:33:16.000] You can even get tech now to dynamically skip dynamically inserted ads, which is like, that's like really diving into that cannibalizing piece of like, if you can just automatically skip those ads.
[00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:20.320] And I know a lot of people skip our ads, which are not dynamically inserted.
[00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:28.400] There's an app somewhere for everyone wants to, I don't, I don't remember what it's called, but definitely came across my digital desk relatively recently.
[00:33:29.360 --> 00:33:34.600] There are apps that allow you to do that because everything is so digital that you can do things like that.
[00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:38.200] And so that doesn't do the advertisers any justice.
[00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:44.120] It doesn't do the creators any, like it fucks everybody over in the process.
[00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:46.120] But it's just, it's a thing.
[00:33:46.120 --> 00:33:48.360] And I think it's just going to keep getting worse.
[00:33:48.360 --> 00:34:01.480] So the idea here is to pull Being Boss out of the podcasting industry so that it is just a content platform.
[00:34:02.280 --> 00:34:06.840] So going back to what you were saying of like, how are you going to be compensated?
[00:34:06.840 --> 00:34:11.160] Sponsors have stopped compensating us in the way they used to.
[00:34:11.160 --> 00:34:13.400] We still work with their sponsors for this episode.
[00:34:13.400 --> 00:34:14.840] I very much so appreciate them.
[00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:15.880] We will have some in the future.
[00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:26.280] We work with people in the community, but when it comes to depending on sponsors for the production of this show, I'm not going to be doing that in that way anymore.
[00:34:27.320 --> 00:34:31.240] Nor do I want it to shape how it is that we do content.
[00:34:31.240 --> 00:34:49.160] Because one of the sort of another dark side of sponsors becoming such an integral part of the podcasting industry these days is they've brought in so many sort of old school ways of managing advertising and what their expectations are.
[00:34:49.320 --> 00:34:51.960] And also there's like a lot of audience things in that too.
[00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:58.360] You know, I think the coaching that goes into starting a podcast is your audience is going to want to know what to expect.
[00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:08.520] And when you create contracts with, you know, sponsors, they're going to want to know your air dates, and you're going to have to make sure your podcasts are a certain length to make sure that your advertising fits in them nicely.
[00:35:08.520 --> 00:35:15.680] Like, I am boxed the fuck in when it comes to what it is that I'm creating and when it is that it goes out into the world.
[00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:42.960] And so, part of this transition, too, is busting free of that box and really reimagining what it is that we can do in terms of show length and show content and show publication schedules and all of these things because the podcasting industry has us in a very small, very confined, and very particular box as to what it is that I can say, how it is that I can say it, when it is that it is said.
[00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:50.080] Um, and I'm too rebellious for that shit.
[00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:51.440] Yes, you are.
[00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:53.840] I'm like, corporate America, give me all your money.
[00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:57.760] I will podcast all you want if you give me some money.
[00:35:57.760 --> 00:36:06.080] But the thing is, is that just like I have, we have a lot of people coming to us wanting to write books and they're asking about how to get agents and these sort of things.
[00:36:06.080 --> 00:36:09.600] And I tell them, well, first you have to become internet famous.
[00:36:09.600 --> 00:36:12.880] Like, you have to be internet famous to get a book deal.
[00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:15.040] And now, the same is true for podcasting.
[00:36:15.040 --> 00:36:17.760] Have you noticed how many celebrities now have a podcast?
[00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:19.040] Basically, all of them.
[00:36:19.040 --> 00:36:22.000] Podcasting has become the new book deal.
[00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.240] Yeah, and that's actually, I have notes on that.
[00:36:24.240 --> 00:36:28.640] That's actually a very big player into the death of the indie podcast as well.
[00:36:28.640 --> 00:36:37.760] Is now all the people with money producing podcasts has realized that one of the best ways for them to make back that money is if is if a big name is the host of that podcast.
[00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:44.080] And there's a lot of chatter happening in the podcasting community about how this is death to the indie podcaster.
[00:36:44.080 --> 00:36:50.800] Because if podcasting becomes another celebrity platform, then no one's going to care to hear from Emily Thompson from being boss.
[00:36:50.800 --> 00:37:09.960] They're going to want to go hear it from Sophia Armaruso, you know, doing whatever it is that she's doing out there, her next gig, or whatever it may be, or it's, you know, someone from Shark Tank or whatever it may be, in a way that, like, I get, I love those Shark Tank folks, some of them at least, but it is not good for indie podcasting.
[00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:17.080] And business, I think the business set of podcasts is a whole different beast on its own, for better or worse.
[00:37:17.240 --> 00:37:24.360] It is not, I was talking in the last episode of this industry is not my favorite for a couple of reasons.
[00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:28.440] One, the peers are, in a lot of cases, appalling.
[00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:33.960] And two, the competition is vast in this space.
[00:37:34.200 --> 00:37:47.080] So, like, the celebrity thing in this space is real, but it's, I think, even more detrimental in a lot of the other categories of podcasts where you have people who have been in here doing some great storytelling or whatever it may be.
[00:37:47.080 --> 00:37:54.200] But whenever you bring in a big-name celebrity into those spaces, everyone else falls away in a really unfortunate way.
[00:37:54.200 --> 00:37:55.880] So, yes, I have definitely seen that.
[00:37:55.880 --> 00:38:09.400] It is a very big conversation happening in the indie podcasting scene and is just another sort of nail in the coffin, I think, of what podcasting has been for the past decade.
[00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:11.560] Do you listen to any podcasts?
[00:38:11.560 --> 00:38:13.080] Absolutely not.
[00:38:13.080 --> 00:38:26.120] Okay, so we started this podcast with me being a big podcast fan, and I was listening to things like Serial and S-Town and some of the big hitters at the very beginning.
[00:38:26.120 --> 00:38:28.120] And you never listen to podcasts.
[00:38:28.120 --> 00:38:32.200] Maybe every once in a while you would listen to an episode of something I would send you away.
[00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:36.040] I occasionally, it's rarely an episode.
[00:38:36.040 --> 00:38:38.760] Occasionally, I will listen to a whole mini-series.
[00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:43.720] I love a mini series, and there has been a couple of them, but like, but otherwise, no.
[00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:45.840] I'm still an avid podcast listener.
[00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:55.440] Earlier, whenever you said people, you know, used to listen to four podcasts, and now it's nine, I probably have 30 to 40 shows that I subscribe to.
[00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:57.280] Am I listening to all of them every week?
[00:38:57.280 --> 00:38:58.400] Absolutely not.
[00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:01.840] Are there maybe a handful that I'm listening to every week?
[00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:03.040] Absolutely yes.
[00:39:03.040 --> 00:39:07.120] There's probably four or five, honestly, that I'm listening to every week.
[00:39:07.120 --> 00:39:11.200] And I have found there are a few that I listen to.
[00:39:11.200 --> 00:39:21.920] And what I've noticed is that I listen to one huge big hitter podcast, which is Armchair Expert, also bought by Spotify, still has advertising.
[00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:32.800] And that was the thing that confused me about all these Spotify deals: I figured that if I'm a Spotify customer paying for Spotify and these podcasts are Spotify exclusives, I wouldn't have to listen to ads anymore.
[00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:34.320] And I was all about it.
[00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:35.840] That is not the case.
[00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:40.800] Even if you pay for Spotify and you're listening through Spotify, you are still hearing advertising.
[00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:42.480] Okay, so that's one thing.
[00:39:42.720 --> 00:40:00.960] The second thing is I've noticed that some of the podcasts I'm listening to do not have advertisers and they are successful and they're done really well and they're kind of old school, like just a couple talking and they have a Patreon and they weren't even pushing it that hard to begin with.
[00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:03.520] And now they're pushing it a little bit more.
[00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:05.760] So I love that.
[00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:12.560] I love that they're making their living doing something else and they're truly creating something for the creativity of it.
[00:40:12.560 --> 00:40:17.200] And that's what keeps me coming back is because they're not thirsty for it.
[00:40:17.200 --> 00:40:21.920] They're not thirsty for sponsors or for you to go buy their product or any of it.
[00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:23.960] They're just chatting and having a good time.
[00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:27.360] And you could just get a little eavesdrop on their conversation.
[00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:28.560] There is another business.
[00:40:28.640 --> 00:40:31.320] But I wonder how well they're actually doing.
[00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:34.520] Like, I kind of want to, but like, show, like, do you have money in your life?
[00:40:34.600 --> 00:40:36.440] Like, are you making some money off of this?
[00:40:37.160 --> 00:40:44.680] They have been personally recommended by the huge podcast I listen to, Armchair Expert.
[00:40:45.240 --> 00:40:47.560] One of the co-hosts is constantly mentioning them.
[00:40:47.560 --> 00:40:49.160] And that's how I got on them.
[00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:56.520] So, you know, they're getting a lot of recommendations, but they've said stuff like the first thousand Patreon subscribers get blank.
[00:40:56.520 --> 00:41:00.120] And so you know that they're not even at a thousand Patreon subscribers yet.
[00:41:00.120 --> 00:41:01.320] So who knows?
[00:41:01.320 --> 00:41:02.040] You know?
[00:41:02.840 --> 00:41:09.400] So yeah, they might not be doing that well on Patreon, but they both have full-time jobs as creatives.
[00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:13.240] And this is a project for them really to just get together and chat.
[00:41:13.240 --> 00:41:18.440] And if that's what podcasting is, like, yeah, you may get opportunities out of that.
[00:41:18.440 --> 00:41:19.320] Here's the thing.
[00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:23.160] If you're creating something that you love, it is going to open some sort of door.
[00:41:23.160 --> 00:41:25.320] I don't know what door that is.
[00:41:25.320 --> 00:41:29.000] So I don't want this to fully deter you from creating a podcast.
[00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:35.320] It's really hard, but if you want to lean into that hard and it's worth it for you, it will open doors for you.
[00:41:35.320 --> 00:41:36.920] It will create some sort of opportunity.
[00:41:36.920 --> 00:41:38.600] I have to believe that about everything.
[00:41:38.600 --> 00:41:40.840] Otherwise, what's the point?
[00:41:40.840 --> 00:41:44.280] Like, what is the point of doing anything if nothing matters?
[00:41:44.280 --> 00:41:45.320] Everything matters.
[00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:45.880] Everything that you're doing.
[00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:49.080] That's my existential crisis these days.
[00:41:49.080 --> 00:41:57.720] Well, girl, get on some Zoloft, 150 milligrams, and you will start feeling a little more optimistic.
[00:41:58.680 --> 00:42:05.000] I know I've really been pushing the anti-anxiety medicine, but truly, you all, it has changed for the better.
[00:42:05.640 --> 00:42:06.600] 100%.
[00:42:06.600 --> 00:42:07.080] Yes.
[00:42:07.120 --> 00:42:08.040] A hundred percent.
[00:42:08.120 --> 00:42:08.440] Yeah.
[00:42:08.440 --> 00:42:08.760] I know.
[00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:09.320] I see.
[00:42:09.320 --> 00:42:15.840] So, anyway, I just want to say, as a listener, there's one other podcast that I listen to quite a bit, and it's a business podcast.
[00:42:14.840 --> 00:42:21.680] And she's only selling her own stuff, you know, and it's not sometimes it's a little heavy-handed.
[00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:28.720] Like, I don't need the whole 15 minutes of a sales pitch at the beginning of an episode, and sometimes I'll skip past that a little bit.
[00:42:29.040 --> 00:42:35.440] Um, but it's kind of like in the more spiritual space, which also, like, I'm just so listen.
[00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:43.920] If you end up, listener, breaking up with like business podcasts after this, because maybe this was the only business podcast you were listening to.
[00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:46.640] I also recommend just quitting self-help in general.
[00:42:46.640 --> 00:42:52.320] Like, go read a novel, you know, like stop buying courses.
[00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:58.000] And I say this as a course creator and just watch a show for fun.
[00:42:58.000 --> 00:43:00.080] Go watch some Ted Lasso.
[00:43:00.080 --> 00:43:03.440] Go listen to actually go live your life.
[00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:05.280] Go live your life.
[00:43:05.520 --> 00:43:07.040] That's real judgy, Emily.
[00:43:07.040 --> 00:43:07.840] Because guess what?
[00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:10.720] Living my life is watching a really good show.
[00:43:10.720 --> 00:43:17.840] Like, I feel like I am alive and well whenever I have a good show to watch.
[00:43:18.160 --> 00:43:18.800] Yeah.
[00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:19.360] Okay.
[00:43:19.680 --> 00:43:21.840] But yeah, go live your life.
[00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:25.600] I wasn't judging, but whatever, go live your life.
[00:43:26.560 --> 00:43:31.520] Gather experiences that will be as good as any self-help you could ever read.
[00:43:31.520 --> 00:43:32.640] 100%.
[00:43:32.640 --> 00:43:33.200] I do.
[00:43:33.200 --> 00:43:34.640] I agree with all of that.
[00:43:34.640 --> 00:43:35.760] All those things.
[00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:40.640] And that really, like, it really all feeds into this decision, right?
[00:43:40.640 --> 00:43:44.560] Of like, of why it is that I'm at this place.
[00:43:44.560 --> 00:43:48.240] Because along the way, I've tried all of the things, right?
[00:43:48.240 --> 00:43:52.720] We've been, we have been supported by sponsors all along the way.
[00:43:52.720 --> 00:43:58.720] Over the past year, I've done a whole lot of polling because we thought, you know, maybe we make the community tier paid again.
[00:43:58.720 --> 00:44:05.480] Maybe we change our brood email to like a sub stack or like charge for that one portion of what we do.
[00:44:05.640 --> 00:44:08.840] Maybe we make this show a paid show.
[00:44:09.160 --> 00:44:13.480] People are, people are overwhelmed by paying for sub stacks anymore.
[00:44:13.480 --> 00:44:14.520] Like, indeed.
[00:44:14.520 --> 00:44:17.000] That has already, what's what's it called?
[00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:18.920] Jump the shark, gone over the hill.
[00:44:18.920 --> 00:44:22.440] Like, I'm getting asked to pay for every email that comes in my inbox right now.
[00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:25.880] And I'm like, y'all, like, I pay for a few of them, but I don't want to.
[00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:27.240] I don't want to.
[00:44:27.240 --> 00:44:30.600] No, I unsubscribe from everything, literally everything.
[00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:33.560] Which really goes into it as well.
[00:44:33.560 --> 00:44:40.440] Is I am not like, I am not the key customer of my own.
[00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:42.680] Like, I'm not paying for any content.
[00:44:42.680 --> 00:44:49.080] And in all of our polling and conversations, no one wants to pay for the shit, which like I get.
[00:44:49.240 --> 00:44:50.360] I don't want to pay for it.
[00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:51.640] I'm not paying for it.
[00:44:51.640 --> 00:44:54.280] But we have to be compensated in some way.
[00:44:54.280 --> 00:45:00.520] If you're not going to pay for the show, if you're not going to pay for the things that we're creating, if you're not going to pay to be a part of the community, all of those things.
[00:45:00.520 --> 00:45:02.840] And the clubhouse tier is still there.
[00:45:02.840 --> 00:45:03.720] It is still paid.
[00:45:03.720 --> 00:45:06.120] People do pay for that and they love it.
[00:45:06.120 --> 00:45:11.960] But the bulk of our audience and community and listeners and all of these things, you don't want to pay for it.
[00:45:11.960 --> 00:45:12.920] And I get it.
[00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:13.960] I totally get it.
[00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:16.840] The world is filled with so much free shit.
[00:45:16.840 --> 00:45:21.560] A monster we created with this like, give it all away for free, 100%.
[00:45:21.560 --> 00:45:26.200] I have definitely felt that come back to bite us in the ass as we've gone along.
[00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:29.320] But the world is so inundated with stuff.
[00:45:29.320 --> 00:45:49.120] And this is actually a conversation I'm going to be bringing up in the next couple of episodes because I do think that this is part of a larger shift that online business in general is seeing, which is going to be the next sort of juicy Emily spill the tea episode as to what it is that I'm seeing on the large scale in the online business industries.
[00:45:50.080 --> 00:46:01.760] But this is part of a larger problem: there's too many people on the internet doing too much stuff, giving too much stuff away for free, and also asking you to pay for way too much stuff.
[00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:14.400] And that I don't want to play that game anymore is really where I am because it is, it is like I said in the last episode, like pulling teeth, like pulling teeth.
[00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:20.080] And so the team and I have gone back many times into then what does it look like?
[00:46:20.080 --> 00:46:28.240] Then how do we create this content, show up all these things in a way that feeds something, right?
[00:46:28.240 --> 00:46:45.280] It's either feeding our creative spirits, which this hasn't in a while for that, because of that box that I was just mentioning, or it feeds our bank accounts, which at Being Boss, it has not in the same way in probably the last year plus.
[00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:46.960] Since I left.
[00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:49.360] No, I'm just kidding.
[00:46:49.680 --> 00:46:51.600] Unfortunately, no, Kathleen.
[00:46:52.560 --> 00:46:55.440] Being boss has gone on to make some really great money.
[00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:56.000] No, I know.
[00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:56.800] And you know what?
[00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:01.280] I was going to say that in our last episode is you got a really big contract right after I left.
[00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:12.000] And it's easy to be like, oh, but that's whenever you know that you are out, is whenever in the good times and the bad times, your decision is the same.
[00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:19.920] So if you're having a hard time making a decision, think about if you got paid a million dollars to do that thing, would you still be out?
[00:47:20.560 --> 00:47:23.200] And if the answer is yes, then you're out.
[00:47:23.200 --> 00:47:23.680] Yeah.
[00:47:23.680 --> 00:47:27.120] So anyway, all that to say, I know, I know it wasn't me.
[00:47:27.120 --> 00:47:31.160] But I do really quickly also want to say about the giving it all away for free hasn't worked for you.
[00:47:31.400 --> 00:47:42.680] It has worked for me, and the back catalog of being boss continues to work for me because I've been able to position myself as an expert in the service that I provide, which is branding and graphic design.
[00:47:42.680 --> 00:47:45.080] And it's still like a tangible thing.
[00:47:45.080 --> 00:47:49.880] I think it just depends on what your business model is on the giving it all away for free part of it.
[00:47:49.880 --> 00:47:59.720] And I have to say, Emily, I don't know that with you really focusing on Almanac now, that that was still a bad decision.
[00:47:59.720 --> 00:48:01.640] It just seems like a really big pivot.
[00:48:01.640 --> 00:48:14.920] Like, you know, giving it all away for free, you can't give crystals away for free, but there's still something that you can give that is probably going to support Almanac in a way that might be generous.
[00:48:15.080 --> 00:48:21.960] It might have something to do with where the podcast is going, you know.
[00:48:21.960 --> 00:48:32.680] Settling yourself into the flow of your business from navigating a whole year of ebbs and flows to embracing the energy of each and every day, you're bound to have some ups and downs along the way.
[00:48:32.680 --> 00:48:38.120] For me, this journey of entrepreneurship is made better when my space keeps me focused and inspired.
[00:48:38.120 --> 00:48:47.320] As an example, my favorite way to mark the beginning and ending of the workday is to light a candle when I sit down at my desk and then blow it out when I'm done for the day.
[00:48:47.320 --> 00:48:52.920] It's a little ritual that creates boundaries and a vibe that keeps me focused and feeling cozy.
[00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:55.720] And the ritual candle that we make at Almanac Supply Co.
[00:48:55.720 --> 00:48:57.480] is my favorite for this.
[00:48:57.480 --> 00:49:11.720] In fact, my whole shop is filled with items that I've curated to create the vibe for feeling connected, in flow, and inspired with candles, crystals, and other goodies to help you create a dreamy workspace, bedside table, or bookshelf.
[00:49:11.720 --> 00:49:23.120] Come gather inspiration and check out my favorite in-stagram items at almanacsupplycode.com/slash beanboss and get 15% off with code beanboss at checkout.
[00:49:23.120 --> 00:49:27.600] That's almanacsupplycode.com/slash beanboss.
[00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:35.840] It definitely does, but also in the store, people come in and they're like, ooh, this is great.
[00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:37.920] I'm like, yeah, vibes are free.
[00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:38.800] Right.
[00:49:41.040 --> 00:49:44.480] So, like, there is an essence of giving, like, that is marketing, right?
[00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:49.040] To some extent, marketing is giving something away for free.
[00:49:49.040 --> 00:49:53.280] But, and it's not so much like a one-on-one person giving things away.
[00:49:53.280 --> 00:49:57.760] Like, no one, or I think very few of us are actually giving everything away for free.
[00:49:57.760 --> 00:49:58.080] Right.
[00:49:58.080 --> 00:50:02.080] The problem is, the entirety of the internet is filled with free shit.
[00:50:02.080 --> 00:50:02.240] Right.
[00:50:02.560 --> 00:50:09.120] And more, like, multiple times more now than it was eight, nine years ago when we got started.
[00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:10.160] Right.
[00:50:10.160 --> 00:50:12.960] Like, it is just a come, yeah, it is.
[00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:13.520] Yeah.
[00:50:13.520 --> 00:50:17.520] It is a completely different environment.
[00:50:17.520 --> 00:50:22.560] And I think I keep coming back to that because that really is what this decision is around.
[00:50:23.200 --> 00:50:40.320] The environment is so different that this model is not working in the same way that it was then, nor in enough of a way that I care that, or like it even, no, I do care, or even in enough of a way that it makes sense to continue it in this way.
[00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:45.760] This is like a smart business decision to do the pivot that we're doing.
[00:50:45.760 --> 00:51:09.720] And the pivot that we're doing, if we do it in the way that, you know, we have it sort of half-baked in our head at the moment, it will be about giving it away for free in support of something incredibly tangible that makes conversions and therefore it filling some cup way easier than come by my other course or join another online community.
[00:51:09.720 --> 00:51:30.760] Sorry, that is a garbage truck driving by, or whatever the other sort of intangible thing is that people who are engaging in online content is just sick and tired of in a very real way that has sort of created this negative feedback loop of what creating content in this way has sort of shaken out to be.
[00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:31.080] All right.
[00:51:31.080 --> 00:51:32.520] So what's it going to be?
[00:51:32.520 --> 00:51:34.200] What are you doing?
[00:51:35.800 --> 00:51:37.800] Well, I don't know yet.
[00:51:39.080 --> 00:51:40.440] Well, I do know.
[00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:41.240] I do know.
[00:51:41.240 --> 00:51:43.400] I, again, half-baked ideas.
[00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:51.480] I don't want to share too much terribly yet because the team and I have decided we've tried to like sit down.
[00:51:51.480 --> 00:52:01.320] We've had some early conversations, obviously, over the course of the past six to nine months in particular as to what is the future of being boss.
[00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:09.320] Like if what we're doing in this space is not working and not even not working in terms of we do SEO work and nothing happens.
[00:52:09.320 --> 00:52:11.880] We have this big guest and nothing is happening.
[00:52:11.880 --> 00:52:20.840] We're like doing the things that we're supposed to do and it's not doing what we need it to do, then how do we change it?
[00:52:20.840 --> 00:52:22.040] What does it look like?
[00:52:22.040 --> 00:52:38.760] And we, so we know what the shift is generally going to be, but we've also made a very conscious decision that we will not sit down and figure it out, like really put it on paper, know exactly what's going to happen next until this phase is done.
[00:52:38.760 --> 00:52:41.000] So, I'm doing these two episodes with you.
[00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:44.200] I'm doing two episodes with Tasha and Erica very soon.
[00:52:44.200 --> 00:52:48.000] And then I'm doing one sort of solo episode to finish this out.
[00:52:48.320 --> 00:53:01.440] And then the team and I have a number of consecutive meetings on the books immediately after that to finally flesh everything out and understand what's happening.
[00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:06.400] And the types of content that we're dreaming up are unlike anything you've ever seen here.
[00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:12.400] The publishing schedules for them are going to be unlike anything you've ever seen in a podcast.
[00:53:12.400 --> 00:53:19.680] Um, and we're breaking them old and really just sitting down and thinking, what kind of content do we want to make?
[00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:23.600] Forget it if half of our audience are just pissed off at us about it.
[00:53:23.600 --> 00:53:24.640] Like, don't care.
[00:53:24.640 --> 00:53:27.200] No offense to you all, but don't care.
[00:53:27.200 --> 00:53:34.560] We are going to create this content for us and for the brand that we all love working on.
[00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:53.920] And, two, how can we like what sort of schedule will keep me in particular from feeling bogged down by constantly showing up or in the same way that I have constantly showing up for this show over the past couple of, like, really 12 to 18 months?
[00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:56.160] This has become really difficult to me.
[00:53:56.160 --> 00:54:02.800] And really, really, how do we actually get truer to the being boss values?
[00:54:02.800 --> 00:54:18.160] Because as we've put ourselves in this box of keeping our audience happy so that their numbers stay up, so that our sponsors are happy, we have inadvertently sort of separated ourselves a bit from our values.
[00:54:18.160 --> 00:54:20.560] And then one of the biggest ones is creativity.
[00:54:20.560 --> 00:54:26.480] When for real is the last time anything creative was done on this show?
[00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:36.200] And you could argue all of them are, but it's also all the same, more or less, because you don't want to piss off your audience because they need to know what to expect.
[00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:38.520] And you have to have the big names.
[00:54:38.520 --> 00:54:41.480] You have to like make your sponsors happy.
[00:54:41.480 --> 00:54:43.080] You have to post regularly.
[00:54:43.080 --> 00:54:44.760] You have to have these specific links.
[00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:53.640] Like the heart of creativity has been gone in a way that I didn't really think about until we started thinking about how to be creative with the show.
[00:54:53.640 --> 00:55:03.640] And creativity is one of those core tenets that we have sort of lost along the way in order to like stay safe in this online content creation world.
[00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:16.760] And if I don't have to worry about anyone else giving me money or giving me money to create this content, and I can, you know, quote unquote sponsor it myself, then I can do whatever I want.
[00:55:16.760 --> 00:55:20.760] And that's what I really want people to sort of settle on.
[00:55:20.760 --> 00:55:22.360] I don't know how we were going to go.
[00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:24.440] I don't know really exactly what that looks like.
[00:55:24.440 --> 00:55:27.800] There's a couple of like hardcore ideas floating around.
[00:55:27.800 --> 00:55:32.120] Don't like get stuck on that yet because we have not shaken it out just yet.
[00:55:32.120 --> 00:55:45.720] What I do want you to know is we are going to be like letting our creative souls shine when it comes to creating what's next, breaking the mold, forgetting the formulas, and really just doing something different.
[00:55:46.360 --> 00:55:47.000] All right.
[00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:49.480] Well, I guess this is goodbye.
[00:55:49.480 --> 00:55:50.920] Oh my God.
[00:55:53.480 --> 00:55:56.840] So, okay, I'm going to pitch this to you right now, though.
[00:55:56.840 --> 00:55:57.240] Okay.
[00:55:57.240 --> 00:55:58.680] Can I pitch this to you right now?
[00:55:58.680 --> 00:55:59.240] Please do.
[00:55:59.480 --> 00:56:02.200] If it's just my feed and I can do whatever the fuck I want.
[00:56:02.200 --> 00:56:02.680] Yeah.
[00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:03.640] Right.
[00:56:04.520 --> 00:56:10.120] I say we do occasional bouts of the Emily and Kathleen show.
[00:56:10.120 --> 00:56:11.880] Yes, 100%.
[00:56:11.880 --> 00:56:13.000] Yes, I do.
[00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:14.080] I do.
[00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:17.360] Right.
[00:56:13.560 --> 00:56:20.400] Let's talk about fashion and lip balm.
[00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:21.920] Okay.
[00:56:21.920 --> 00:56:22.320] Okay.
[00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:23.600] The Kathleen and Emily show.
[00:56:23.600 --> 00:56:25.280] Like, people are really going to see it.
[00:56:25.280 --> 00:56:27.760] Like, like the real.
[00:56:28.080 --> 00:56:29.040] Can.
[00:56:29.360 --> 00:56:30.000] Yeah.
[00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:30.480] Okay.
[00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:30.880] Yeah.
[00:56:30.880 --> 00:56:31.360] Why not?
[00:56:31.920 --> 00:56:37.040] Like, if, if, if it really isn't about making anybody happy except ourselves, right?
[00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:37.840] Yeah.
[00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:38.880] At all.
[00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:39.360] Yeah.
[00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:41.440] What, like, what would it be?
[00:56:41.440 --> 00:56:43.920] And how much fun would that be?
[00:56:44.720 --> 00:56:45.840] So much fun.
[00:56:45.840 --> 00:56:47.200] I'm in it.
[00:56:47.520 --> 00:56:52.480] I will sit here on a microphone and talk to you anytime.
[00:56:52.480 --> 00:56:53.200] I know.
[00:56:53.520 --> 00:56:54.080] I know.
[00:56:54.080 --> 00:56:56.080] And we can take all the pressure off of it.
[00:56:56.080 --> 00:57:04.960] As long as Corey's still editing and I can still help this out, though, because this is just us.
[00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:05.360] Right?
[00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:08.560] No one needs to know this shit, but Emily.
[00:57:08.880 --> 00:57:10.080] Here's the tea.
[00:57:10.080 --> 00:57:12.320] No, absolutely.
[00:57:12.320 --> 00:57:15.600] I think I'm so excited about what's happening next.
[00:57:15.600 --> 00:57:19.120] And though, as we were getting on, and I was like, are you ready for the last one?
[00:57:19.120 --> 00:57:28.080] I don't want this to be the last one because in the future of what this feed is, I want to go back in some instances, like little mini series, right?
[00:57:28.080 --> 00:57:34.080] Little mini series of what you and I most wanted to do, right?
[00:57:34.080 --> 00:57:36.640] Which is the Emily and Kathleen show.
[00:57:36.640 --> 00:57:39.040] I love you, Emily Thompson.
[00:57:39.680 --> 00:57:41.440] Ditto, Kathleen.
[00:57:43.360 --> 00:57:44.960] So this is not the last.
[00:57:45.680 --> 00:57:47.120] It's not the last for you and I.
[00:57:47.120 --> 00:57:55.120] And for everyone who is listening to this, there are a couple more episodes coming because I'm not quite done really giving you what I need to give you before I move on.
[00:57:55.200 --> 00:58:04.440] I've got a few more of those sponsor dollars to cash in on a couple more contracts to finish out for sure.
[00:58:05.160 --> 00:58:09.720] Just burn down that bridge all the way in this episode.
[00:58:10.360 --> 00:58:10.920] Right?
[00:58:10.920 --> 00:58:12.440] I mean, I hope not.
[00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:14.200] It's Shopify, y'all.
[00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:15.480] I use them at Almanac.
[00:58:15.480 --> 00:58:25.320] It is the most inline business sponsor crossover I could ever accept dollar bills for, especially.
[00:58:25.720 --> 00:58:33.800] But no, I will be back for a couple more really juicy episodes to talk a bit more about this process and really what's next.
[00:58:33.800 --> 00:58:46.680] And I think the real meat of what is coming is basically what we've done today with this like podcasting conversation of like what is happening in the industry and how things have changed and how that has played into this decision.
[00:58:46.680 --> 00:59:01.480] I have just as juicy, if not more so, bit about online business and where it is that I have seen things shifting and changing, especially as I straddle the fence between online and offline and have otherwise been in this space for over 15 years.
[00:59:02.120 --> 00:59:08.440] Where I've been having some conversations with my friends and we're going to be sharing it here in those coming episodes.
[00:59:08.440 --> 00:59:10.040] So don't unsubscribe yet.
[00:59:10.040 --> 00:59:14.360] Don't ever unsubscribe, but at least wait till the next couple of episodes before you do that.
[00:59:15.080 --> 00:59:19.880] And then that is it for Emily and Kathleen on the regular Being Boss show.
[00:59:19.880 --> 00:59:21.320] Thanks, honey.
[00:59:22.280 --> 00:59:23.720] I've loved it.
[00:59:23.720 --> 00:59:25.800] It's been a good time.
[00:59:25.800 --> 00:59:26.440] It has.
[00:59:26.440 --> 00:59:27.960] Until it wasn't.
[00:59:27.960 --> 00:59:29.080] Until it wasn't.
[00:59:29.080 --> 00:59:29.480] And then it wasn't.
[00:59:29.640 --> 00:59:31.720] Until it was a really bad time.
[00:59:32.360 --> 00:59:33.080] Yes.
[00:59:33.720 --> 00:59:34.680] All right, Kathleen.
[00:59:34.680 --> 00:59:36.120] One last time.
[00:59:36.600 --> 00:59:39.800] We're going to do this again, but for the sake of this, one last time.
[00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:42.280] What's making you feel most boss?
[00:59:42.920 --> 00:59:45.280] Well, hmm.
[00:59:45.920 --> 00:59:48.880] What's making me feel most boss?
[00:59:44.840 --> 00:59:51.280] Okay, this one's really personal.
[00:59:52.240 --> 00:59:56.080] And I almost am uncomfortable.
[00:59:57.760 --> 00:59:58.960] I'm not going to share it.
[00:59:58.960 --> 01:00:00.480] That's what's making me feel boss.
[01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:05.840] There's something that happened recently.
[01:00:06.160 --> 01:00:10.240] And if I share it, it defeats the whole purpose of having done it.
[01:00:10.560 --> 01:00:14.240] But I did something recently that makes me feel really boss.
[01:00:14.560 --> 01:00:26.320] And what is so magical about this is, Kathleen, you've always been so transparent that it feels like a very boss evolution for you to be like, and I'm going to keep it to my fucking self.
[01:00:26.320 --> 01:00:27.360] I appreciate you saying that.
[01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:30.320] I thought you were about to say, like, no, this does not count as an answer.
[01:00:30.320 --> 01:00:31.520] Come up with something else.
[01:00:31.520 --> 01:00:37.280] Like, if the thing that's making you feel boss you can't talk about, then you need to say something else.
[01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:44.800] But what, how fitting for the last episode of being boss to say that the thing that's making me feel most boss, I've chosen not to talk about.
[01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:46.960] I mean, that is like monumental.
[01:00:46.960 --> 01:00:49.280] It is not lost on me at all.
[01:00:49.280 --> 01:00:50.880] I love this for you.
[01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:52.160] Good job, Kathleen.
[01:00:52.160 --> 01:00:54.880] Zoloft for everyone.
[01:00:59.680 --> 01:01:02.400] Absolutely everyone.
[01:01:02.400 --> 01:01:03.920] No, I think that's a perfect answer.
[01:01:03.920 --> 01:01:04.560] Thank you.
[01:01:04.560 --> 01:01:06.160] How about you, Emily?
[01:01:06.160 --> 01:01:08.800] What's making you feel most boss right now?
[01:01:08.800 --> 01:01:18.800] What's making me feel most boss is definitely how at peace I feel with this decision to make this pivot, to take a break of record, because that's a thing.
[01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:22.240] I haven't, there will be a break in recording for a while.
[01:01:22.240 --> 01:01:34.600] We're going to, for the first time in eight and a half years, there will not be a new episode of Being Boss for a couple of weeks while we figure out everything we're doing and get sort of things lined up and feel like.
[01:01:29.680 --> 01:01:39.400] I like how you say a couple of weeks, like a couple of weeks is a break.
[01:01:39.400 --> 01:01:40.200] Try two months.
[01:01:40.680 --> 01:01:41.640] It'll be months.
[01:01:41.960 --> 01:01:43.240] No, no, actually, it will be.
[01:01:43.240 --> 01:01:45.240] It'll be like two and a half months, if I'm not mistaken.
[01:01:45.240 --> 01:01:47.000] So it's like, it's a good break.
[01:01:47.000 --> 01:01:47.960] It's a good break.
[01:01:47.960 --> 01:01:50.120] Because, girls, I need it.
[01:01:50.600 --> 01:01:52.360] Absolutely need it.
[01:01:53.080 --> 01:01:58.200] So it will be like a two and a half, maybe even three month break, depending on how everything shakes out.
[01:01:58.840 --> 01:02:02.440] So for me, it's definitely how I piece with this, I feel.
[01:02:02.440 --> 01:02:04.760] This has been a long time coming.
[01:02:05.000 --> 01:02:10.360] I mentioned previously that I knew that something was happening a whole year ago.
[01:02:10.360 --> 01:02:12.040] I was like, this is a decision I'm making.
[01:02:12.120 --> 01:02:14.280] It was not something I made rashly.
[01:02:14.280 --> 01:02:17.640] I did not sort of shut everything down immediately as soon as I felt it.
[01:02:17.640 --> 01:02:19.720] I knew this was something that I wanted to keep and do.
[01:02:19.720 --> 01:02:29.960] And I talked to the team and I've talked to my friends and I've like really sort of gotten to this place and I feel like I'm doing it so responsibly, as responsibly as I care to do it.
[01:02:30.120 --> 01:02:30.760] How about that?
[01:02:30.760 --> 01:02:42.760] For both the sake of our audience and our community, but also me and the team and, you know, all the things in a way that I'm making this really big decision and I feel fine with it, like whatever.
[01:02:42.760 --> 01:02:58.120] I mean, not like whatever and like I don't care, but I have so processed all of this stuff in such a way that it feels incredibly boss to be at this place where I'm sharing with you all all these big crazy things and you're all like shocked and appalled and I'm just like, yeah, it'll be fine, y'all.
[01:02:58.120 --> 01:02:59.800] Let's just move on.
[01:02:59.800 --> 01:03:05.720] This is, I do not feel emotional around something that I think a lot of people would feel incredibly emotional.
[01:03:05.720 --> 01:03:08.680] I've worked through it all and I'm ready to just take the steps.
[01:03:08.680 --> 01:03:09.960] That feels boss.
[01:03:10.280 --> 01:03:11.880] How about that, Kathleen?
[01:03:11.880 --> 01:03:13.640] You ready to say last goodbyes?
[01:03:13.640 --> 01:03:16.240] Obviously, next time it'll be the Emily Kathleen show.
[01:03:16.240 --> 01:03:20.480] But oh my gosh, is it going to be like, wait, how does that?
[01:03:14.920 --> 01:03:22.240] We'll have to talk about it later.
[01:03:22.560 --> 01:03:26.000] I want to sit in on these conversations of what this thing is going to be.
[01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:27.760] I just want to be a fly on the wall.
[01:03:29.520 --> 01:03:32.960] You've never been a fly ever, but if you want to, I love them.
[01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:36.400] I mean, with this newfound mysteriousness that I've got.
[01:03:36.720 --> 01:03:38.320] I know you could.
[01:03:38.640 --> 01:03:40.400] Wait, what was the question?
[01:03:40.560 --> 01:03:40.960] I don't think so.
[01:03:41.120 --> 01:03:42.720] Was there a question?
[01:03:44.560 --> 01:03:45.920] See you later.
[01:03:46.880 --> 01:03:48.400] This is where it's really hard to say.
[01:03:48.640 --> 01:03:52.000] Oh, are we all on the phone not trying not to say goodbye to each other?
[01:03:52.320 --> 01:03:54.880] Yeah, that's what we're doing.
[01:03:55.520 --> 01:03:59.680] This is the longest goodbye we've ever had because it's like, okay.
[01:03:59.680 --> 01:04:00.560] Okay, you ready?
[01:04:00.560 --> 01:04:01.360] I guess this is it.
[01:04:01.760 --> 01:04:02.720] I guess I need to go down.
[01:04:02.800 --> 01:04:04.080] I'm going to go to the count of three.
[01:04:04.080 --> 01:04:04.560] Okay.
[01:04:04.560 --> 01:04:05.200] Okay.
[01:04:05.200 --> 01:04:08.000] One, two, three.
[01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:08.640] Bye.
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[01:04:30.640 --> 01:04:34.720] That's almanacsupplycode.com/slash being boss.
[01:04:34.720 --> 01:04:37.360] Now, until next time, do the work.
[01:04:37.360 --> 01:04:38.560] Be boss.