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[00:00:01.040 --> 00:00:07.040] The phrase that I really like is secure attachment with life, secure attachment with reality.
[00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:21.440] This idea of coming back to feeling fundamentally at home in our bodies, creating the conditions of safety so that all parts of our psyche learn to feel inherently safe in the world.
[00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:23.200] Hey guys, how are you doing?
[00:00:23.200 --> 00:00:25.360] Hope you're having a good week so far.
[00:00:25.360 --> 00:00:26.240] My name is Dr.
[00:00:26.240 --> 00:00:32.480] Romgan Chatterjee, and this is my podcast: Feel Better, Live More.
[00:00:34.080 --> 00:00:46.000] Why is it these days that so many people are feeling stressed, anxious, close to burnout, and have exaggerated responses to simple everyday situations?
[00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:59.200] Well, this week's guest thinks this is a natural consequence of the fact that many of us are walking around each day with overloaded and dysregulated nervous systems.
[00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:19.520] Johnny Miller is the founder of Nervous System Mastery, a five-week boot camp where he has taught well over a thousand students, including CEOs, high performers, and busy parents, how to cultivate calm, rewire reactivity, and restore aliveness.
[00:01:19.520 --> 00:01:30.160] His work combines cutting-edge neuroscience with practical body-based approaches that help people move from chronic reactivity to intentional living.
[00:01:30.160 --> 00:01:36.400] And you can see all details at the course homepage nsmastery.com.
[00:01:36.720 --> 00:01:50.720] After experiencing profound grief following the death of his fiancé, Sophie, Johnny embarks on a journey to understand how our nervous systems shape every aspect of our lived experience.
[00:01:50.720 --> 00:02:01.000] And in this conversation, we discuss why anxiety isn't actually an emotion, but a protective strategy used by the nervous system to shield us.
[00:02:01.320 --> 00:02:10.120] The three core skills of nervous system mastery, interoception, self-regulation, and emotional fluidity.
[00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:21.080] How emotions themselves typically last just 10 to 20 seconds, but our resistance to feeling them creates what Johnny calls emotional debt.
[00:02:21.080 --> 00:02:28.200] Why working with the body can be more effective than trying to think our way out of stress?
[00:02:28.200 --> 00:02:39.480] And how practices like cold exposure can help train us to stop resisting discomfort and allow challenging sensations to move through us naturally.
[00:02:39.480 --> 00:02:52.600] Johnny's reflections on grief are particularly moving, and he shares how Sophie's death taught him that emotions, even the most painful ones, carry their own kinds of wisdom.
[00:02:52.600 --> 00:02:58.840] At its heart, this conversation is about remembering what the body already knows.
[00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:14.040] Johnny shows us that beneath our stress and reactivity lies a deep intelligence, and that when we learn to trust it, we can move through life with more presence, resilience, and peace.
[00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:25.000] As you well know, we don't see the world as it is, we see the world as we are.
[00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:40.120] What are some signs, in your view, that might indicate our nervous systems are a little bit out of whack, which may colour the way we view the world and change the way we experience life?
[00:03:40.760 --> 00:03:43.000] Yeah, I mean, that's beautifully said.
[00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:47.760] I view the nervous system as literally a lens through which we experience reality.
[00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:57.200] And I think our state of our nervous system and the degree to which we're in a mode of reactivity completely dictates our experience of life.
[00:03:57.200 --> 00:04:02.960] So some signs would include forms of reactivity.
[00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:16.720] So if your knee-jerk anger is obviously a clear one, or if there's a sense of fatigue or lethargy or sleep is obviously a huge one as well, that's a big symptom of nervous system dysregulation.
[00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:18.240] What, that we can't sleep?
[00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:25.280] That we wake up, struggle to fall asleep, struggle to kind of downshift at the end of the day without kind of using substances.
[00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:31.040] And also, I think challenge in relationship is a huge one that I see in my students.
[00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:39.440] So whether it's kind of conflict in different areas or challenges with creating a sense of connection with people that are close to you, there's a lot.
[00:04:39.520 --> 00:04:42.240] Early symptoms of burnout is another one as well.
[00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:46.320] So I think about it in terms of like feather brick dump truck.
[00:04:46.320 --> 00:04:53.120] And in the beginning, maybe your nervous system is telling you, like, almost like tickling you with a feather of like, maybe you're going a little bit too hard.
[00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:55.520] Maybe it's time to take a bit of a break.
[00:04:55.520 --> 00:05:04.400] And then there's maybe a brick, which could be, you know, you wake up feeling exhausted, maybe you've got brain fog, maybe you can't really perform at work.
[00:05:04.400 --> 00:05:12.640] And then for some people, it takes a dump truck, which might be maybe it's like an intense breakup or it's like a health crisis.
[00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:17.680] And it's often, unfortunately, the dump truck which gets people to really tune in.
[00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:20.880] But it's really just the body giving you feedback.
[00:05:20.880 --> 00:05:21.520] Yeah.
[00:05:21.840 --> 00:05:22.560] It's interesting.
[00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:31.080] Those symptoms you mentioned there, some of them, you know, being overly reactive, relationship struggles, maybe anxiety would be in there for many people.
[00:05:29.760 --> 00:05:34.520] These are very, very common these days.
[00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:39.320] And it's kind of interesting as I sort of think about your work.
[00:05:39.640 --> 00:05:50.200] I think about this idea that I often say on the show that when people are not eating well in a nourishing way and they've never done it before, they don't know how good they can feel.
[00:05:50.520 --> 00:05:51.080] Yeah.
[00:05:51.080 --> 00:05:51.720] Right?
[00:05:51.720 --> 00:06:05.240] So until they actually go through the process of having just whole unprocessed foods for two weeks, they have no idea just how much their processed food diet is affecting them in terms of energy, vitality, and how they experience the world.
[00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:09.000] And I kind of see a similar thing with the nervous system, right?
[00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:09.480] Totally.
[00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:16.920] Many people are walking around with these kind of tight and wound up nervous systems that they think is normal.
[00:06:17.400 --> 00:06:22.520] Yet they don't realize that there is another way to experience the world out there, isn't there?
[00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:23.560] Yeah, beautiful.
[00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:25.880] I mean, anxiety, I think, is a really good example.
[00:06:25.880 --> 00:06:31.560] And it actually, the word anxiety comes from the Latin ango, which literally means to constrict.
[00:06:31.880 --> 00:06:42.360] And a lot of people try and manage anxiety or like conquer anxiety, but it's really just our reaction to a kind of an underlying emotion.
[00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:51.320] And so it can be really helpful to kind of learn to notice the constriction in the body and kind of like allow it to open up.
[00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:54.440] And, you know, there's a number of different practices for that.
[00:06:54.440 --> 00:06:55.000] Yeah.
[00:06:55.320 --> 00:06:56.280] That's interesting.
[00:06:56.280 --> 00:06:58.760] Anxiety is a reaction to an underlying emotion.
[00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:03.560] I imagine that a lot of people think that anxiety is an emotion.
[00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:04.120] Totally.
[00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:04.360] Right.
[00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:06.760] But you're sort of framing it slightly differently.
[00:07:06.760 --> 00:07:13.960] Yeah, it's kind of like a defensive strategy that our nervous system has to constrict against.
[00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:16.400] I think about almost like a hose pipe.
[00:07:14.840 --> 00:07:22.240] Like you can turn on the tap really strongly, and you know, the water will kind of go through.
[00:07:22.400 --> 00:07:28.160] And if your system is kind of unclenched and doesn't have tension, it'll kind of flow cleanly.
[00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:35.200] But if you're resisting some aspect of your experience, could be anger, could be sadness, could be frustration, whatever it is.
[00:07:35.200 --> 00:07:45.680] And a really obvious example is like if someone is, you know, before an important conversation, maybe they feel scared and afraid and there's a sense of anxiety, but that could also be excitement.
[00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:54.800] And it can just, if that system opens and they're kind of connected to the breath, then that it's really just energy, like energy in motion that's kind of moving through.
[00:07:54.800 --> 00:08:00.080] Is there a difference between anxiety and excitement, or is it just the way that we're framing that tension?
[00:08:00.080 --> 00:08:01.520] It's the tension in the body, I think.
[00:08:01.520 --> 00:08:02.080] Yeah.
[00:08:02.080 --> 00:08:02.960] Same tension.
[00:08:03.840 --> 00:08:04.320] Yeah.
[00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:07.840] That's a really interesting concept because we know that anxiety is on the rise.
[00:08:07.840 --> 00:08:11.040] So many people are struggling with anxiety.
[00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:23.440] And you're saying trying to manage it can make it worse, which in many ways is counterintuitive for people, but I think that's because people don't know what it feels like these days to experience their body.
[00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:27.920] So I imagine some people will hear you talking and go, yeah, but what are you talking about?
[00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:30.160] Constricting in my body.
[00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:31.360] What the hell does that mean?
[00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:42.160] And so do you find that in the modern world, many people are stuck in their heads and don't even know what's going on beneath the neck?
[00:08:42.160 --> 00:08:43.200] Yeah, totally.
[00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:53.040] So I think about in the kind of journey of nervous system mastery, of kind of working with your nervous system, there's three kind of core skills that I think about.
[00:08:53.040 --> 00:09:00.760] And the first is what you exactly what you spoke to, which is kind of regaining sensitivity of our internal experience.
[00:09:00.760 --> 00:09:03.480] So it's called interoception is the kind of fancy name.
[00:08:59.920 --> 00:09:04.920] I know you've written about it in your book.
[00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:12.040] And it's really relearning to listen to the feedback from our body that's coming all of the time.
[00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:14.920] The second skill is self-regulation.
[00:09:14.920 --> 00:09:18.760] And this is what a lot of people are probably familiar with when it comes to anxiety.
[00:09:18.760 --> 00:09:23.720] This is there's kind of three ways that I think about self-regulating.
[00:09:23.720 --> 00:09:29.160] There's top-down approaches, which might be like cognitive reframes, might be positive affirmations.
[00:09:29.160 --> 00:09:31.080] Mindfulness is a good example.
[00:09:31.640 --> 00:09:46.120] The second is bottom-up, which is, this is my favorite, honestly, it's like working with the or leveraging these levers in our physiology, things like the breath is a really common one, to literally shift our state and create that sense of safety.
[00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:52.600] And from there, the third kind of pillar or category is emotional fluidity.
[00:09:52.600 --> 00:10:01.000] And that is, it's the one that probably takes the longest to learn, but it's learning to welcome the full spectrum of human experience.
[00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:06.200] And beneath anxiety, for a lot of people, it's either like frustration or anger or sometimes sadness.
[00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:15.000] And once there's that sense of kind of safety and calmness that's created from the self-regulation, then the emotion can kind of come through.
[00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:22.200] And it's actually, it's the resistance to feeling the emotion that is the bit that sucks, basically.
[00:10:22.520 --> 00:10:27.480] The emotions themselves don't last for more than 10 to 20 seconds.
[00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:32.800] It's the way that we constrict and tense against them and try to resist feeling them.
[00:10:32.800 --> 00:10:34.920] That is the bit that causes the challenge.
[00:10:34.920 --> 00:10:35.800] That's really interesting.
[00:10:35.800 --> 00:10:41.720] The emotions themselves don't last beyond 10 to 20 seconds, I think.
[00:10:42.040 --> 00:10:42.840] Which is wild, right?
[00:10:42.840 --> 00:10:45.760] Because we don't think about that normally.
[00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:52.160] Yeah, and I know you run this incredible five-week course, Nervous System Mastery, where you teach people about all these things.
[00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:57.600] And I think I've read some where you say that one of the goals of that course is to reduce the half-life.
[00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:02.400] of reactivity, which that was really interesting, especially in the context of what you just said.
[00:11:02.400 --> 00:11:15.040] And in some of the stuff I've read from you, you say, like a beginner, for example, might feel angry for, I don't know, two days, and an expert might feel angry for two seconds.
[00:11:15.040 --> 00:11:15.280] Right.
[00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:15.920] Right.
[00:11:16.160 --> 00:11:21.040] But what was interesting for me is that the expert wasn't not feeling angry.
[00:11:21.040 --> 00:11:21.680] Completely.
[00:11:21.680 --> 00:11:22.080] Right.
[00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:25.840] You were just reducing how long you felt that anger for.
[00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:27.840] So I want to definitely explore that.
[00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:32.560] But I wonder if we should think about like an everyday example that people can relate to.
[00:11:32.560 --> 00:11:32.800] Right.
[00:11:32.800 --> 00:11:42.080] Because at the start, some of those signs that might indicate our nervous system is a little bit out of balance are, let's say, relationship conflict.
[00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:42.560] Right.
[00:11:42.560 --> 00:11:52.480] So many people know that feeling, let's say, let's say they have a partner and their partner says something, you know, arguably trivial.
[00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:52.800] Okay.
[00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:56.000] They say something.
[00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:06.320] And the other partner, let's say the person listening, gets incredibly triggered by that comment and starts to create stories about what that comment actually means.
[00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:10.240] They feel angry and not listen to, whatever it might be.
[00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:10.640] Okay.
[00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:16.160] So is that a useful example to try and unpick, you know, what's actually going on there?
[00:12:16.160 --> 00:12:20.160] So like through your lens, I think it would be quite helpful to help people understand that.
[00:12:20.160 --> 00:12:20.560] No, totally.
[00:12:20.560 --> 00:12:21.920] I mean, that's a great example.
[00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:26.160] There's basically two modes of reactivity that all humans have.
[00:12:26.160 --> 00:12:38.200] One mode, the technical term, is hyper-arousal, like aggression, intensity, anger, and then hypo-arousal is more like collapsing, shutting down, kind of guarding against.
[00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:40.120] And most people tend to lean one way or the other.
[00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:46.440] So, for example, I tend to kind of become more guarded, tend to be kind of more emotionally unavailable in conflict.
[00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:56.680] And the way that you know that you're in some kind of pattern or trigger is, as you say, you're kind of responding disproportionately to what has happened.
[00:12:56.680 --> 00:13:04.440] So, it's you know, it's very normal if someone, you know, if you were to like shout at me or insult me, it would be normal for me to like have a reaction to that.
[00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:13.480] But if you say something that's, you know, isn't designed to kind of offend me, then but I get reactive or I start to close down, then that's a sign that I'm in some kind of trigger.
[00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:20.360] And, you know, for me, it's kind of closing off, it's becoming kind of emotionally unavailable.
[00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:24.520] And, you know, what's funny is for a long time, I thought that I was just like a very calm person.
[00:13:24.520 --> 00:13:30.200] I thought that I was like very even-keeled, very like, didn't get reactive at all.
[00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:39.320] But actually, I was in so many situations, I was kind of subtly withdrawing a sense of connection out of like self-protection, basically.
[00:13:40.200 --> 00:13:58.360] And as soon as I was able to notice that that was what was happening for me, and my partner kind of the same as well for her, then I could prioritize coming back into what's known as the window of tolerance, which is a very important kind of concept in this world of nervous system practices.
[00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:18.160] And I know I'm in my window of tolerance when I feel grounded, I feel in myself, I feel a sense of I'm like here, I'm like, I'm not disassociated, I'm not checked out, I'm not trying to attack someone, and it's really, really hard to have any kind of productive conflict in relationship.
[00:14:18.160 --> 00:14:22.640] And I think all relationships have, you know, some degree of conflict, I think it's really healthy.
[00:14:22.640 --> 00:14:41.040] But if one or both of you isn't in that place of being in their bodies and kind of that has that sense of regulation and being in that window of tolerance, then it'll just be kind of back and forth of usually the pattern is like someone gets aggressive and someone gets defensive.
[00:14:41.040 --> 00:14:42.800] Yeah, we'll come back to relation in just a minute.
[00:14:43.040 --> 00:14:45.360] You said something that's really interesting for me.
[00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:46.960] And it's something I think about a lot.
[00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.640] This idea that you need to be in your body.
[00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:54.720] Now, I think some people are going to hear that and go, yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
[00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:57.200] You know, I know what it means to be in my body.
[00:14:57.520 --> 00:14:59.760] I know what it means when I'm not in my body.
[00:14:59.760 --> 00:15:07.600] But there'll also be maybe 50% of people listening, as a rough guess, who heard that phrase and thought, I don't know what Johnny's talking about.
[00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:11.440] What does it mean to be in my body?
[00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:20.480] So I'm guessing that people who come onto your five-week course, I imagine there's some people who come in who also don't know what that means.
[00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:22.640] So can you just help people understand that?
[00:15:22.640 --> 00:15:25.600] Yeah, I mean, I think it's not binary, right?
[00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:27.360] It's definitely on a spectrum.
[00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:37.200] So I think about it as almost like upgrading your sense of your internal landscape like a chef kind of learning to taste, right?
[00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:47.120] When someone goes into culinary school, they will learn to train their flavor palette to notice like increasing subtlety in the flavors that they're tasting.
[00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:50.320] And it's kind of the same with our sensations and with our emotions.
[00:15:50.640 --> 00:16:00.600] We have this like interoceptive palette that we can increasingly tune into and treat as real-time feedback coming from our body.
[00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:02.680] And this is known as interoception.
[00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:04.760] And it helps with decision-making.
[00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:07.880] It helps with knowing what state we're in.
[00:16:07.880 --> 00:16:10.200] Like maybe we need to take a bit of a break.
[00:16:10.520 --> 00:16:14.360] Maybe when you wake up in the morning, you kind of tune, how are you feeling?
[00:16:14.360 --> 00:16:19.160] And the three, the kind of practice that I teach around this, you know, it's very trainable.
[00:16:19.560 --> 00:16:24.840] I call it ape, which stands for awareness, posture, and emotion.
[00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:31.400] And awareness is, again, something that a lot of people don't think about, but your awareness in any moment can be kind of expansive.
[00:16:31.640 --> 00:16:35.160] You could be aware of like the space besides you, the space above you, below you.
[00:16:35.160 --> 00:16:43.320] Or usually when people get stressed or reactive, the awareness is almost like it's like looking, experiencing life through a straw that's like just in front of you and very narrow.
[00:16:43.640 --> 00:16:44.840] Posture is another one.
[00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:47.400] And then emotions and sensations.
[00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:56.200] Again, like right now, I can kind of like notice my butt on the seat, my feet on the floor, kind of feeling into my hands, feeling the back of my body.
[00:16:56.200 --> 00:17:03.480] And it's really just the kind of practice of tuning into the different facets of your experience.
[00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:04.040] Yeah.
[00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:06.280] It's interesting, isn't it?
[00:17:06.280 --> 00:17:08.680] Because you grew up in the UK, like me.
[00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:10.600] I know you've moved now to America.
[00:17:12.120 --> 00:17:13.800] But I imagine it's the same in America.
[00:17:13.800 --> 00:17:16.920] It's quite a head-based culture.
[00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:24.680] And I know you read my latest book in chapter one, which is one of my favorite chapters, which is all about trusting yourself and interception.
[00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:41.480] And I mention this story from a tribe where they were very confused that people in America thought with their heads because to them, they think with their abdomen, right?
[00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:42.840] Which I found so fascinating.
[00:17:42.840 --> 00:17:46.720] Just this idea that, well, we all experience the world differently, don't we?
[00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:51.680] And actually, just because we live in a head-based culture, it doesn't mean everyone does, right?
[00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:58.640] So, other cultures and many people within our cultures are used to being in their bodies, but many people aren't.
[00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:03.600] So, bringing it back to conflict in a relationship, right?
[00:18:03.600 --> 00:18:17.120] So, let's say, and of course, there's practice on these things, which you might have to do away from the event and learn so you can bring the new improved you back to those conflict situations.
[00:18:17.120 --> 00:18:22.560] But if we just sort of try and unpick it, okay, let's take a comment online, for example.
[00:18:22.560 --> 00:18:25.360] Like, people say, Oh, that comment is offensive.
[00:18:25.360 --> 00:18:27.120] Actually, technically, that's not true.
[00:18:27.120 --> 00:18:29.440] No comment can be offensive, right?
[00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:37.280] Because if the comment was intrinsically offensive, 100% of the people reading that comment would take offense to it.
[00:18:37.600 --> 00:18:39.360] So, it's not the comment, right?
[00:18:39.360 --> 00:18:48.240] There is a comment, and then the offense for whatever reason, body, brain, mind, whatever, is coming from us, right?
[00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:51.600] Something within us has been activated, so we then call it offensive.
[00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:59.360] But there is a space, isn't there, between the stimulus, the comment, and our response, us saying it's offensive, right?
[00:18:59.360 --> 00:19:02.160] So, can we sort of try and unpick that?
[00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:04.880] Let's say, I don't know, husband-wife relationship, okay?
[00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:08.960] The husband says something, the wife doesn't like it, okay?
[00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:10.320] So, what's going on, right?
[00:19:10.320 --> 00:19:13.200] And in terms of how can we bring our body into that?
[00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:14.800] Does that make sense as a kind of framing?
[00:19:14.800 --> 00:19:16.000] No, it's a great example.
[00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:22.240] And maybe another kind of frame to add to this is that our nervous system uses what's known as predictive processing.
[00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:29.280] So, it's essentially making predictions the entire time about our lived experience and about what is happening.
[00:19:29.280 --> 00:19:37.480] So, as you say, you can read a comment and you can form a prediction in a hundred different ways about what that means.
[00:19:38.040 --> 00:19:41.480] And those predictions will also be informed by your current state of being.
[00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:51.880] So if I'm in a kind of like triggered, reactive, stressed out, exhausted state, I'm going to read that comment differently than if I'm like well slept, you know, well hydrated, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:53.720] We see the world through the lens of our nervous system.
[00:19:54.520 --> 00:19:54.760] Exactly.
[00:19:54.760 --> 00:19:55.000] Exactly.
[00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:55.480] Exactly.
[00:19:55.640 --> 00:20:03.800] And so being aware of the state that you're in is actually really useful information for when you're interpreting, let's say, a comment or let's say a conflict.
[00:20:03.800 --> 00:20:12.760] And one of the practices, because I want to make this as practical as possible, that was pioneered by DiMasio, who is this really famous neuroscientist.
[00:20:12.760 --> 00:20:15.160] He talked about somatic markers.
[00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:25.160] And what that basically means is everyone has a different set of somatic markers, which are like the early warning signs that you're entering some kind of reactive state.
[00:20:25.800 --> 00:20:38.040] So in the example of a conflict between a married couple, let's say, maybe, you know, maybe for me, I start to notice there's like, oh, there's like some tension in my chest while we're talking.
[00:20:38.040 --> 00:20:45.320] Or maybe there's like a knot in my stomach and it feels like, oh, and there's this like, oh, that doesn't feel good.
[00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:56.520] And if you're aware of that, you can kind of like bring it up and present it and say, like, hey, I'm noticing that there's this tension in my chest.
[00:20:56.520 --> 00:21:00.520] When this has happened before, I've ended up like shouting at you.
[00:21:00.520 --> 00:21:07.400] And so I'm going to take like a few minutes to kind of step away, put my feet on the grass, get some fresh air, and then come back.
[00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:09.080] And I want to have this conversation.
[00:21:09.080 --> 00:21:14.440] I want to have, you know, this is really important, but I don't feel like I'm able to kind of be grounded in this state.
[00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:15.680] Yeah, I love that.
[00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:15.920] Right.
[00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:24.000] I think for me, there's a really key point there, which is nervous system mastery, as you call your course, right?
[00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:28.560] Which I think is a wonderful name, is going to take some time.
[00:21:28.560 --> 00:21:29.040] Totally.
[00:21:29.040 --> 00:21:29.440] Right?
[00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:29.920] Yeah.
[00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:41.440] If you are living in a reactive state and you get overly triggered to, let's say, the actions of your partner, you're not going to just hear this podcast and suddenly go, oh, yeah, great.
[00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:43.280] I'm going to be totally chilled now when it happens.
[00:21:43.600 --> 00:21:45.040] It's going to be a process of learning.
[00:21:45.040 --> 00:21:48.160] Like, if you were going to train to run a marathon, you'd have to practice.
[00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:48.560] Exactly.
[00:21:48.560 --> 00:22:12.720] So, what you just said there for me is something that I feel I probably brought into my marriage a few years ago as I've been on this journey to kind of regulate my own nervous system, which is, you know, if something, if there's any conflict or a disagreement and you're feeling for whatever reason, I'm a bit wound up, I'm still thinking about work, I'm overly stressed.
[00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:16.480] Even the awareness to sort of say, hey, listen, I know this is important.
[00:22:16.800 --> 00:22:20.720] I don't think now's the right time for us to get into this.
[00:22:21.360 --> 00:22:22.960] You know, I'm not ignoring it.
[00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:27.760] I know we need to talk about it, but maybe in half an hour or maybe I'm just going to go for a walk around the block.
[00:22:27.760 --> 00:22:28.800] Is that okay?
[00:22:29.760 --> 00:22:41.120] Even that can almost at source prevent this kind of downstream, like, I don't know, set of flames that can often start in relationships, right?
[00:22:41.120 --> 00:22:41.360] Exactly.
[00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:43.440] Is that what you're meaning by that?
[00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:45.200] Yeah, it's exactly that.
[00:22:45.200 --> 00:23:00.760] And I would say the kind of path of mastery or the learning journey is kind of, again, like the time that you spend in that kind of reactive state before you realize and you start to kind of take another path.
[00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:09.800] So, you know, for many people, it might be like, you know, you're angry for like two days or you're not talking to your partner or you're kind of in this dynamic.
[00:23:09.800 --> 00:23:23.800] And if that short, you know, if that shortens from like two days to even down to like two hours or 20 minutes, that is like a huge life upgrade because it allows you to move through the world with, and this is what I really care about.
[00:23:23.800 --> 00:23:25.720] You get to have more intentionality.
[00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:35.400] You get to act and kind of show up with more agency and showing up in a way that you want to show up and in a way that's like aligned with your values.
[00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:47.320] And when we're triggered, when we're in these reactive states, it's really hard to show up as the people that we want to be because we are in this kind of defensive, contracted, protective state.
[00:23:47.320 --> 00:23:48.520] And that's not a bad thing.
[00:23:48.520 --> 00:23:53.080] I think that's the other important thing to mention here is that it's not bad that this happens.
[00:23:53.080 --> 00:24:02.200] It's just a part of us, like a part of our psyche that is feeling unsafe and has learned this strategy to kind of protect ourselves, basically.
[00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:13.960] And you can kind of like have compassion for that part and walk away, do a breathing practice or humming or some grounding or whatever it is that works for you, maybe even just time outside.
[00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:17.240] And then come back and kind of start again.
[00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:18.680] And I don't know.
[00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:25.560] I mean, I think that it just saves so much unnecessary suffering to have this kind of pretty simple toolkit of skills.
[00:24:25.560 --> 00:24:38.440] Yeah, it's interesting that this is not just about having a better relationship or managing conflict better with your loved one, right?
[00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:41.480] Yes, it is about that, but it's so much more than that.
[00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:43.960] It's your experience of life.
[00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:48.000] It's, as you said, your ability to create an intentional life.
[00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:59.120] The way I often talk to people about this concept is this idea that we all have these internal values that represent the person we know ourselves to be.
[00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:03.760] And so the question then becomes: why are we sometimes behaving in a different way?
[00:25:03.760 --> 00:25:04.320] Exactly.
[00:25:04.800 --> 00:25:06.560] Why is there this internal conflict?
[00:25:06.560 --> 00:25:07.360] We know who we are.
[00:25:07.360 --> 00:25:14.000] We know we want to be kind and compassionate, yet we end up being reactive and stressed and making little digs at people, right?
[00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:14.640] Why?
[00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:27.760] And one of the reasons I think, which I think very much mirrors what you're saying, is that if you're chronically stressed, the way you view the world also changes, right?
[00:25:27.760 --> 00:25:31.280] Because when you're stressed, your body thinks it's under threat, right?
[00:25:31.280 --> 00:25:32.720] So the focus comes in.
[00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:33.840] You're looking for threat.
[00:25:33.840 --> 00:25:34.880] You're looking for problems.
[00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:37.200] You become hyper-vigilant, right?
[00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:42.640] You're not having this wide perspective, taking the other viewpoint, going, oh, I wonder what they were thinking there.
[00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:43.360] Do you know what I mean?
[00:25:43.360 --> 00:25:50.480] So it feels like it's like it's a vicious cycle from both sides.
[00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:52.720] We're living in a world where people feel chronically stressed.
[00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:57.040] They've got too much to do, which is changing the way they view the world.
[00:25:57.040 --> 00:26:04.880] It's also tightening up their nervous system, which means they're going to also be more reactive even when there's no threat there.
[00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:05.600] Exactly.
[00:26:05.600 --> 00:26:15.520] So I know we're going through practical exercises, but for someone who's perhaps having a light bulb moment during this conversation, can they change it?
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[00:30:13.480 --> 00:30:15.720] Yes, I mean, it's like doing reps at a gym, right?
[00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:21.080] It does take practice, but our nervous systems are neuroplastic, like along with our brain.
[00:30:21.080 --> 00:30:26.920] And so with practice, we can rewire these maladaptive responses to stress.
[00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:34.920] And the other thing that I want to bring this back to is this idea of emotions or avoided emotions and specifically emotional debt.
[00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:46.920] Because the more that we go through life and, you know, our nervous systems have this amazing capacity to buffer our emotional responses, which, you know, in many, many situations is super useful.
[00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:55.800] Like, let's say, I don't know, someone on the street just like shout to me, or I'm in a boardroom meeting and I get really angry.
[00:30:55.800 --> 00:31:00.280] It's actually good for me to be able to suppress that and kind of save it for later.
[00:31:00.280 --> 00:31:08.760] But if I do that, you know, repeatedly over many days or weeks or months, that builds up this emotional debt is what I call it.
[00:31:08.760 --> 00:31:12.600] And in the nervous system, this is a buildup of allostatic load.
[00:31:12.600 --> 00:31:21.320] And what this does, this kind of wear and tear, it drains energy from the system, which reduces our window of tolerance.
[00:31:21.320 --> 00:31:34.600] So I imagine listeners will be familiar that, like, you know, maybe they maybe they start a new job and in the beginning they've got like a ton of energy and they feel vibrant, but as time goes on, it feels like they get more and more reactive over time.
[00:31:34.600 --> 00:31:47.760] And that, I believe, is due to this buildup of allostatic load, which is in part contributed to by not allowing these, the emotional reflex arc to be completed.
[00:31:48.080 --> 00:32:00.640] And so, you know, many of us are walking around with like pockets of buffered emotional responses, which is contributing to this sense of exhaustion and fatigue and low capacity, basically.
[00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:08.320] Yeah, I really like that idea of emotional debt and this idea that we're not completing our emotional responses.
[00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:14.560] I think it's a really, really important point for us all to reflect on.
[00:32:14.560 --> 00:32:19.040] I know you like to give the example of the lion and the impala.
[00:32:19.040 --> 00:32:26.480] So maybe perhaps use that as a way of helping people understand what it means to complete that stressed response fully.
[00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:26.880] Yeah.
[00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:29.120] So people can search this on YouTube.
[00:32:29.120 --> 00:32:32.720] There's a great video of an impala that is chased by a lion.
[00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:34.480] It's literally like in its jaws.
[00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:36.320] It manages to escape.
[00:32:36.320 --> 00:32:45.200] And the next kind of five minutes, it finds its way to hide under a bush and it just lies down and its entire body just starts shaking.
[00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:50.560] It shakes and shakes and shakes for about two or three minutes and it just gets up and it's totally fine.
[00:32:50.560 --> 00:32:59.360] But that shaking is the kind of mammalian response that we all have of discharging that intensity and that stress that it just went through.
[00:32:59.360 --> 00:33:02.480] And humans have kind of forgotten how to do that.
[00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:11.040] There's definitely ways that you can, whether it's through breathwork or whether it's through either practice I call somatic surfing or even just creating a sense of safety.
[00:33:11.280 --> 00:33:17.680] Sometimes the body will kind of go into to complete that emotional response that it wasn't able to at the time.
[00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:20.560] Because often we will disassociate or we'll push it down.
[00:33:20.560 --> 00:33:22.240] And again, that's great.
[00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:35.880] But if we don't set aside time for some kind of processing to just allow the emotions to complete, then they get stored and they drain energy from the battery of your body, basically.
[00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:38.520] Yeah, that's a very vivid image.
[00:33:38.520 --> 00:33:51.320] An Impala almost being dead and having all that stress within them that they then process, the stress is gone, they go about living their life.
[00:33:51.880 --> 00:33:54.760] And I mean, it's really interesting.
[00:33:54.760 --> 00:33:59.640] Last July, my family and I, for our summer holidays, we went to Kenya.
[00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:02.440] And one of the things we did was go on safari.
[00:34:02.440 --> 00:34:04.360] I was quite scared before I went.
[00:34:04.360 --> 00:34:14.680] Like, I cognitively, I couldn't get my head around the facts that I was going to be in a car and I was actually hoping our car was closed, but it wasn't.
[00:34:14.680 --> 00:34:16.440] It was open, right?
[00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:17.480] Which was great.
[00:34:17.480 --> 00:34:19.880] But I was just like, hold on.
[00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:23.880] So there's going to be wild animals there.
[00:34:24.200 --> 00:34:26.680] And I was quite tense the first time.
[00:34:26.680 --> 00:34:31.160] For sure, I was holding on to the edge and trying not to look afraid to my kids.
[00:34:31.160 --> 00:34:32.040] But I was, right?
[00:34:32.040 --> 00:34:33.960] Because I'm not used to being in these environments.
[00:34:34.040 --> 00:34:35.640] So I softened up over days.
[00:34:35.640 --> 00:34:49.160] But I do remember once driving, we drove past two lions, and something really profound shifted in me because, you know, this is the wild, right?
[00:34:49.160 --> 00:34:54.120] There was blood all around their faces, their jaws, right?
[00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:55.640] And all my fear went.
[00:34:55.640 --> 00:35:01.240] I just thought, oh, I don't think, I mean, I don't think they're going to attack us anyway.
[00:35:01.240 --> 00:35:04.280] But I also thought, oh, they're full.
[00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:05.880] Like, that line is literally full.
[00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:08.360] They've, I think they've just killed a wilder beast.
[00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:10.280] Their stomach is distended and full.
[00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:14.440] They're probably in that relaxed, parasympathetic state now, just chilling.
[00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:17.280] They're not interested in coming after me.
[00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:18.240] Do you know what I mean?
[00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:20.320] It's sort of, it was very, it was very profound.
[00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:35.440] And then going back to your example about the wild and how mammals will complete that stress response, it makes you think of this movement-deprived Western world in which many of us live, right?
[00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:41.440] And we talk about the benefits of physical activity for our hormones or our physical health.
[00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:46.720] There's more talk these days about what physical activity does for our mental well-being.
[00:35:47.040 --> 00:36:11.760] But as you were talking, I thought, do you think that one of the reasons why movement, whether it be walking or running or going to the gym, makes us feel so good is because it completes or it helps us complete a stress response that may have been left partially uncompleted within our bodies?
[00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:16.160] Yeah, I think that's largely a big part of it.
[00:36:16.160 --> 00:36:18.160] And I used to go for a run.
[00:36:18.160 --> 00:36:24.000] Like that was my way of, if I'd had an intense day, I'd kind of go for a run around the block or in the park.
[00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:25.920] And I'd feel better when I got back.
[00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:35.200] And I think the other thing that you're speaking to is the, you know, the environment that we're in very much dictates our own experience to some degree as well.
[00:36:35.200 --> 00:36:40.640] So I think about the best metaphor I have for the nervous system is as a, it's like as an instrument.
[00:36:40.640 --> 00:36:45.520] Like we have these human instruments and sometimes we can get out of tune.
[00:36:45.520 --> 00:36:47.120] That's how I think of dysregulation.
[00:36:47.120 --> 00:36:53.200] But in certain environments, I mean, I felt this the other day on a like incredibly busy London underground tube.
[00:36:53.200 --> 00:36:59.360] Like we are kind of co-regulating with the other people and the environments that we're in.
[00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:09.480] And as mammals, we feel much more grounded, relaxed, expansive in something like, you know, I was at a Soho Park just before this podcast.
[00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:11.320] And there, I was like, oh, I feel so good.
[00:37:11.320 --> 00:37:13.160] And everyone can relate to that.
[00:37:13.160 --> 00:37:22.520] But I think that it's really helpful to think about how we can, to the degree that we can design our environments, they then will design us in return.
[00:37:22.520 --> 00:37:36.920] And so there's constantly this kind of like attuned relationship between, you know, between me and you right now, between the room that we're in, the plants, like our nervous system is constantly looking for these signals of like, am I safe?
[00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:38.520] Can I relax?
[00:37:38.520 --> 00:37:48.600] And so I think there's definitely an argument to be made of intentionally designing your environment for the state that is appropriate for that moment.
[00:37:48.600 --> 00:38:01.800] So another example is there's something called the cathedral effect, which is where if you have like a high ceiling, there have been studies that shown that's better for like creative thinking versus like a low ceiling is much better for like analytical kind of maybe data-driven tasks.
[00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:08.040] And so we're constantly being impacted by our environment.
[00:38:08.040 --> 00:38:08.680] Yeah.
[00:38:08.680 --> 00:38:10.600] So it's interesting.
[00:38:10.760 --> 00:38:14.760] We're in the middle of London at the moment in a studio recording this conversation.
[00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:15.320] Okay.
[00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:20.760] So many people do live in very urban settings.
[00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:21.160] Okay.
[00:38:21.160 --> 00:38:27.480] And of course some people cannot exert much control over their external environment.
[00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:36.920] So what are the kind of things that we can do in our homes, in our flats, in our apartments to try and negate the effects of the outside world?
[00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:41.400] Well, I'd say there's both internal things and there's external things.
[00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:45.600] So, your body is constantly getting signals from both your body and the environment.
[00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:59.760] So, for people who are in these kind of like busy, loud environments, obviously, you know, externally, you can wear noise-cancelling headphones, things like that, or just like reduce the intensity of stimulus if you're looking to kind of unwind at the end of the day, for example.
[00:39:00.160 --> 00:39:08.400] But I think more practical and more effective, honestly, are learning what I call bottom-up techniques or practices.
[00:39:08.800 --> 00:39:22.320] So, these would include things like humming is actually really effective, it increases nitric oxide by I think 15-fold, and it's a vasodilator, which helps with eye strain as well, and helps us kind of downshift into that parasympathetic state.
[00:39:22.560 --> 00:39:37.040] Other things would be long-hold stretches, exhale-emphasized breathing practices, so like 478 is a really common one, or just any breath where the exhale is twice as long as the inhale, it will have a kind of calming effect.
[00:39:37.520 --> 00:39:43.440] And another one that you can do without you know externally changing anything is a kind of playing with your awareness.
[00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:51.920] So, you can be aware of the space like behind you, feeling your feet on the ground, attuning to like the sounds around you.
[00:39:52.240 --> 00:40:09.040] And the more that your awareness is kind of expansive, I'm like doing a little bit right now, like you can kind of put your hands out, and then as you kind of move them behind you, you're kind of expanding your peripheral vision, and that has this kind of expansive effect and it creates a sense of spaciousness in the system.
[00:40:09.040 --> 00:40:13.440] Yeah, that whole visual piece is really interesting.
[00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:38.200] Um, I worked with this incredible movement coach called Helen Hall, and one of the things Helen has helped me with is understanding the importance of peripheral vision when, let's say, you're running, and she has shown me, and I've seen the data that when you are running or walking with narrow focus vision, right, which many of us would be doing.
[00:40:38.200 --> 00:40:42.360] And if you're in a narrow urban street, you probably are going to be doing that.
[00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:43.960] You move a certain way.
[00:40:44.600 --> 00:40:52.280] And if you then tune into expanding your vision, softening it, making it more peripheral, your whole movement pattern changes.
[00:40:52.280 --> 00:40:54.760] There's more fluidity, there's more flow.
[00:40:55.400 --> 00:40:57.960] It really helps the way you move.
[00:40:57.960 --> 00:41:03.320] And we know that your vision is, you know, it's super related to the state of your nervous system.
[00:41:03.320 --> 00:41:04.120] Totally.
[00:41:04.520 --> 00:41:09.160] So those practices actually, yeah, they're really helpful to think about.
[00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:11.480] I want to go into some of them in detail, right?
[00:41:11.480 --> 00:41:13.880] But you mentioned this bottom-up practices.
[00:41:13.880 --> 00:41:14.440] Okay.
[00:41:14.440 --> 00:41:17.080] And before you mentioned top-down.
[00:41:17.080 --> 00:41:17.400] Okay.
[00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:21.320] So I want to really kind of unpack it.
[00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:21.800] Okay.
[00:41:21.800 --> 00:41:30.280] So top-down, i.e., with your mind, from your brain downwards, you're cognitively reframing things, you're thinking about things differently.
[00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:40.040] Bottom-up is some sort of body-based practice like the breath, for example, that is naturally changing things in your nervous system.
[00:41:40.680 --> 00:41:41.560] How would you frame it?
[00:41:41.560 --> 00:41:54.280] Yeah, so the example you gave with the lion, seeing that the lion's belly was full was a great example of like a top-down reframe because you noticed that, oh, so now the lion is no longer a threat.
[00:41:54.280 --> 00:42:00.520] So you kind of changed a belief that you had that was making a prediction about the world about whether or not the lion is a threat.
[00:42:00.520 --> 00:42:04.280] So that was a great example of like a very effective top-down intervention.
[00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:11.640] There's many others in the kind of you know, CBT is another good example of like cognitive reframes.
[00:42:11.640 --> 00:42:23.760] But what I love about bottom-up, and there's some interesting science around this as well, in that we have, I believe it's something like four times more afferent neurons than efferent neurons.
[00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:29.200] And the afferent neurons are the ones that go from the body up to the up to the brain, up to the head.
[00:42:29.200 --> 00:42:33.440] And efferent go from the brain head down to the body.
[00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:41.280] So there's essentially like a kind of four-lane superhighway of information going up and like one lane of traffic going down.
[00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:53.440] And to me, that kind of indicates that the way that we make predictions is much more heavily influenced by what our body is experiencing than by the kind of thoughts and feelings and emotions that we're having.
[00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:54.640] Okay, love it.
[00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:57.600] So this is where I'm at with my thinking with this at the moment.
[00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:06.560] Compared to, let's say, five years ago, I feel my nervous system is in a completely different state.
[00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:12.000] Generally speaking, today, I feel pretty calm, contented most of the time.
[00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:13.520] I'm not really reactive.
[00:43:13.520 --> 00:43:18.960] Very little stresses me out compared to what used to happen.
[00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:25.760] Now, the internet, the modern world wants to know what was the one thing I did or one does.
[00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:27.760] And the truth is, there wasn't a one thing.
[00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:30.160] Okay, there were a variety of different things.
[00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:34.240] But one of the things I did a lot of was cognitive reframing.
[00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:48.720] Okay, and for people who listened to my show, they'll know that a conversation I had with the Auschwitz survivor, Edith Eager, had a huge impact on my life because she could cognitively reframe her experience whilst in a death camp.
[00:43:48.720 --> 00:44:06.280] Now, I found that the most inspiring thing because for months after that, whenever I got triggered or I felt reacted to something that was outside my control, and back then it was a lot, once my kids had gone to bed in the evening, I wasn't able to do it in the moment.
[00:44:06.600 --> 00:44:10.760] Once they'd gone to spend an evening, I would then think about those situations.
[00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:19.240] I go, okay, instead of blaming the external world for my internal emotions, I would own them and go, okay, what did that bring up in me?
[00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:19.960] Okay.
[00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:26.520] Oh, that reminded me of this from my childhood or what someone said to me when I was 14, whatever it might be.
[00:44:26.520 --> 00:44:41.960] And through that process, or that's at least one part of it, I feel my, the way I interacted with the world and, you know, day-to-day life experience completely changed.
[00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:45.240] So I'm always trying to be aware of my biases.
[00:44:45.240 --> 00:44:46.520] I think we've all got biases.
[00:44:46.520 --> 00:44:55.720] You know, when something has worked for us or we perceive it's worked for us, I think a lot of us then falsely jump to the conclusion that that must be the way that everyone needs to approach stuff.
[00:44:55.720 --> 00:44:57.000] And I'm trying to be aware of that.
[00:44:57.320 --> 00:44:58.840] Actually, no, that worked for me.
[00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:01.800] It doesn't mean it's going to work as well for everyone.
[00:45:01.800 --> 00:45:02.200] Right.
[00:45:02.200 --> 00:45:06.840] So that would be an example of a top-down intervention.
[00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:07.640] Right.
[00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:12.520] Now, I will also acknowledge, I mentioned Helen, my movement coach.
[00:45:12.840 --> 00:45:21.800] My body and the way I move and my ability to access different movements has also completely changed through working with Helen.
[00:45:21.800 --> 00:45:22.200] Right.
[00:45:22.520 --> 00:45:30.600] And so I also believe, as you do, I think that the body stores emotions in advertising commas, right?
[00:45:30.920 --> 00:45:39.280] And therefore, once you can start to access different movements, your posture, your personality, your emotions start to change.
[00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:39.520] Right.
[00:45:39.560 --> 00:45:41.520] So I've also done that at the same time.
[00:45:41.240 --> 00:45:41.600] Yeah.
[00:45:42.520 --> 00:45:58.320] So I can't say it was just that, but I guess what I'm trying to get to with you is, you know, you're sort of saying that you think that bottom-up is arguably more powerful than top-down.
[00:45:58.320 --> 00:45:58.720] Yeah.
[00:45:58.720 --> 00:46:03.120] I mean, so I would say first, first off, the ideal is you stack.
[00:46:03.120 --> 00:46:07.440] You stack the top-down, the bottom-up, and also the outside in is the third category as well.
[00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:10.640] That's like the people around you, your environment, the things we were talking about as well.
[00:46:10.720 --> 00:46:11.920] So you're saying you hit it from multiple angles.
[00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:12.800] You hit it from lots of answers.
[00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:14.880] Yeah, you hit it from all of the angles.
[00:46:15.120 --> 00:46:20.560] I think in my experience, the bottom-up is the most underappreciated and kind of most ignored.
[00:46:20.560 --> 00:46:30.080] And I do believe it's the most effective if someone is in a state of, you know, their anxiety is ramping up maybe towards a panic attack or they're getting really stressed.
[00:46:30.080 --> 00:46:30.400] Yeah.
[00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:33.200] It's the most effective kind of short-term intervention.
[00:46:33.200 --> 00:46:47.680] But in terms of the long-term, I mean, I think it's actually, this is kind of going a little like a layer deeper, but I think that both top-down and bottom-up interventions can also be used to avoid feeling emotions.
[00:46:47.680 --> 00:47:04.800] And this is something I call the self-regulation paradox: in that if you're just using journaling or CBT or breathwork to kind of ground yourself, but ultimately avoid feeling whatever the emotion is, you're not going to make progress over time.
[00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:14.720] Because I view these practices as purely a means to get back into our window of tolerance and then to allow the emotion to actually move through.
[00:47:14.720 --> 00:47:27.920] Because if we're still moving through the world in a way that we are avoiding feeling sadness or anger or grief or whatever the thing is, then we will always be making these predictions that, like, oh, that's that's bad.
[00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:29.360] We're not going to go near that.
[00:47:29.360 --> 00:47:35.720] And so the intensity of our in which they present in our bodies will just get worse and worse over time.
[00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:40.440] And we'll have to do like more and more of these interventions in order to kind of self-regulate.
[00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:41.800] Yeah, I love that, right?
[00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:43.480] I love the way you frame that.
[00:47:43.480 --> 00:47:48.840] So we're feeling reactive over something.
[00:47:49.160 --> 00:48:01.320] We can learn some top-down practices or some bottom-up practices to reduce that reactivity and perhaps reduce how much we react to that stimulus in the future.
[00:48:01.320 --> 00:48:01.880] Exactly.
[00:48:02.120 --> 00:48:06.760] Unless we go one level deeper and go, okay, we've reduced the reactivity.
[00:48:06.760 --> 00:48:14.280] Now let's really feel that emotion and let that emotion work through us, like the impala sort of shaking it out.
[00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:14.520] Yes.
[00:48:15.240 --> 00:48:16.840] It will still be there.
[00:48:16.840 --> 00:48:20.280] It will be having a hold on us.
[00:48:21.800 --> 00:48:33.720] And when the right scenario presents itself, the right comments, the right amount of sleep deprivation, the right comment from your boss, it's like a match that still lights it.
[00:48:33.720 --> 00:48:34.840] Precisely, precisely.
[00:48:34.840 --> 00:48:38.200] And you mentioned earlier that emotions are stored in the body.
[00:48:38.200 --> 00:48:44.360] And up until recently, I think this was a fairly kind of almost like a fringe belief, but we didn't really have like a mechanism for this.
[00:48:44.360 --> 00:48:49.400] And there's a really interesting theoretical neuroscientist called Michael Edward Johnson.
[00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:59.080] And he has this idea that in the smooth muscle tissue, there are these latches that are created every time we kind of buffer these emotions.
[00:48:59.080 --> 00:49:05.800] And so there are literally, like pockets of tension that are stored in the smooth muscle tissue using this latch-latch bridge mechanism.
[00:49:06.120 --> 00:49:08.840] And my belief, I'd love to find a way to test this.
[00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:11.240] I'm working with him to try and run an experiment on this.
[00:49:11.720 --> 00:49:23.440] But I would love to be able to do a kind of before and after of, let's say, you know, before a series of five breathwork journeys or before MGMA-assisted psychotherapy, like what is someone's latch profile before and after?
[00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:24.640] Because you can see it.
[00:49:24.640 --> 00:49:37.440] Sometimes my students or my breathwork clients, you can literally see the tension kind of dissolve in their face or different areas, or they feel like, oh, like I suddenly have sensations in my belly that I didn't have before.
[00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:49.520] You know, these things happen anecdotally, but I would bet that there is a strong correlation between these latches in the smooth muscle tissue and the amount of just unprocessed, undigested emotions.
[00:49:49.520 --> 00:49:50.800] Yeah, that is so interesting.
[00:49:51.040 --> 00:49:51.600] Super interesting.
[00:49:51.600 --> 00:49:53.760] Well, it brings up quite a few things for me.
[00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:59.440] Firstly, this idea that emotions are stored in the body.
[00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:04.480] And this idea that you mentioned that until recently it's been deemed like quite a fringe concept.
[00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:12.800] And I think in many ways that is a reflection of the head-based rational world in which we live, right?
[00:50:13.120 --> 00:50:18.960] The need to find a mechanism for something that many humans will say, well, we've intuitively known this for thousands of years.
[00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:20.960] Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't find a mechanism.
[00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:22.320] I think it's fun to.
[00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:29.600] At the same time, I find many things are deemed fringe when we don't have a scientific mechanism to explain them.
[00:50:30.080 --> 00:50:42.480] You know, I've been into an, you know, I've been in enough movement classes over the years to see when people have certain movements unlocked and released, they can be shaking and crying for like 20 minutes sometimes.
[00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:52.400] It's like, oh my God, what on earth was stored in your hip flexors that when you finally release them for the first time, you were just shaking.
[00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:54.000] It reminds me of the impeller, right?
[00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:54.480] Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:50:54.560 --> 00:50:57.200] Maybe that emotion got stored, it wasn't completed.
[00:50:57.200 --> 00:50:57.760] Exactly.
[00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:02.600] And that movement allowed it to be completed, which then begs the question for me.
[00:51:06.120 --> 00:51:19.400] If you have a stored emotion that's there from a previous trauma or a previous event, can you process it without even thinking about it?
[00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:19.960] Yes.
[00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:20.440] Yeah.
[00:51:20.440 --> 00:51:21.240] Yeah, you can.
[00:51:21.240 --> 00:51:31.240] And I think that's why my bias is more in the bottom-up category because I've had a number of personal experiences, mostly through doing hundreds of breathwork journeys.
[00:51:31.240 --> 00:51:33.000] It was kind of my approach.
[00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:35.080] But I've had many, many experiences.
[00:51:35.560 --> 00:51:37.960] I believe that many of them were kind of pre-verbal.
[00:51:37.960 --> 00:51:44.120] So things that happened between the ages of zero to a year and a half before I even had language.
[00:51:44.120 --> 00:51:51.960] And so I'd be experiencing these incredibly intense emotions from like abandonment, grief, rage.
[00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:54.280] And I had no story of what was going on.
[00:51:54.280 --> 00:52:03.400] It was purely just, I was just witnessing these really intense emotions like coursing through my body, but having zero idea what they were connected to.
[00:52:03.400 --> 00:52:16.520] And that's happened, you know, more times than I can count, which is why I think the intellectual piece, the top-down piece, is a really useful kind of like wedge in the door because it gets people in contact with the felt sensation.
[00:52:16.520 --> 00:52:30.360] But I think that if it remains purely in the realm of the intellect and there isn't some kind of contact with the physical somatic kind of sensation and response, then I don't believe that the latches can actually be opened.
[00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:32.360] Yeah, that is such a beautiful example.
[00:52:32.360 --> 00:52:37.800] I mean, if things have been stored in our body before we could even speak, how the hell are we going to cognitively reframe that?
[00:52:37.880 --> 00:52:38.840] We have an angular language for it.
[00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:39.880] Yeah, right, exactly.
[00:52:40.200 --> 00:52:57.280] And it also makes me think where I'm sort of landing on this, I won't call it a conundrum, but this kind of top-down, bottom-up, which again, I actually do believe is an artificial separation because that is then predicated on the belief that the body and mind are separate, which I don't believe they are.
[00:52:57.280 --> 00:53:03.680] So you could even make the case that even a powerful form of cognitive reframing is in some way changing the body.
[00:53:03.680 --> 00:53:04.240] It is, yeah.
[00:53:04.240 --> 00:53:05.760] Because these things aren't separate.
[00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:06.560] Totally.
[00:53:07.200 --> 00:53:16.800] I think where I love top-down as a short-term thing, at least, is to help people understand cognitively, at least, maybe not on the body yet.
[00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:20.240] And I agree with you that bottom-up is super important as well, right?
[00:53:20.240 --> 00:53:27.760] So it's more for the purpose of a conversation that I bring these things up because I think it's really interesting to explore.
[00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:28.960] I agree.
[00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:38.800] One thing I want to sort of impart with people is this idea that the responses within you are being brought up within you.
[00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:43.760] It's very easy to blame the external world for our internal responses.
[00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:51.680] But until you understand that actually the external world might send you some signals, right?
[00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:56.720] But ultimately, it's your internal response to those signals that's causing the issue.
[00:53:56.720 --> 00:53:58.560] It doesn't mean it's not hard in some situations.
[00:53:58.560 --> 00:54:08.560] Of course, if you're in war or you're suffering severe trauma, you know, and someone's traumatizing you, I'm not saying that isn't happening or it's not incredibly difficult.
[00:54:08.560 --> 00:54:13.440] But let's take it away from those extreme examples and talk about a comment on social media, right?
[00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:20.160] Which people are walking around getting triggered every single day by what I would call neutral comments on social media.
[00:54:20.160 --> 00:54:27.360] I think top-down is really useful to help people understand: look, the comment really at its core is neutral.
[00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:35.080] You know, what you're touching on is a really important piece, which is this idea of like full ownership and full agency.
[00:54:35.560 --> 00:54:46.680] And I think that when we are suffering and when we're resisting our experience, it's because we are feeling in some way or shape or form like we're a victim of that.
[00:54:46.680 --> 00:54:54.920] Like we had no control or power, whether it was like something your boss said or your partner said or a victim of even circumstances.
[00:54:54.920 --> 00:55:07.560] And when you make that move to no, I'm creating this, it at the same time, it also softens your resistance to the physical things that you're feeling as well.
[00:55:07.560 --> 00:55:13.160] And so, as you said, the top-down, bottom-up distinction is actually in some ways, it doesn't exist.
[00:55:13.160 --> 00:55:22.120] And, you know, for people who've done like extended meditation retreats, for example, they can notice when a certain thought arises, there will be a corresponding subtle tension in their body.
[00:55:22.120 --> 00:55:33.320] So, every time we have a thought or an idea, there is a corresponding mental kind of sensation that arises on just a really kind of like very subtle level.
[00:55:33.320 --> 00:55:36.680] And so, as you say, there is this direct connection.
[00:55:36.680 --> 00:55:47.560] Yeah, you shared a story recently about a monk who came and did one of your courses.
[00:55:47.560 --> 00:55:48.200] Oh, yeah.
[00:55:48.200 --> 00:55:48.840] Yeah, yeah.
[00:55:48.840 --> 00:56:05.160] And it was such a powerful story because my recollection of it, and perhaps you could share it again, is that there was a monk who'd done a ton of meditation, yet, somehow, would managed to avoid feeling their emotions.
[00:56:05.160 --> 00:56:11.000] And so, there was anger raging within them that they didn't know about until it came out.
[00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:11.960] So, could you just share that?
[00:56:11.960 --> 00:56:14.320] Because I think that's an incredibly powerful example.
[00:56:14.320 --> 00:56:20.960] How some of the time we're bypassing our emotions and think we're moving forwards when we're actually not.
[00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:21.440] Yeah, I know.
[00:56:21.520 --> 00:56:22.880] I'm really glad you brought this up.
[00:56:23.200 --> 00:56:28.400] So, this was a monk who'd spent 20 plus years in a monastery.
[00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:37.280] And I actually get a surprising number of students in my course who are long-term meditators, but they still aren't happy, honestly.
[00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:41.200] They still experience anxiety, they still experience reactivity.
[00:56:41.200 --> 00:56:43.120] And I love meditation myself.
[00:56:43.120 --> 00:57:08.160] I've, you know, I practice regularly, but I do think that it is a very obviously there's different types of meditation, but often what long-term meditators will get very good at is that kind of move to where they are deconstructing reality or they are, what's the word, kind of creating cognitive distance between themselves and the feeling or the emotion.
[00:57:08.160 --> 00:57:17.120] And it's very, very different to neutrally observe a feeling or sensation versus like fully welcome it.
[00:57:17.120 --> 00:57:33.440] And the example that I think will make this real for people is: if you imagine, if you imagine your kids, like neutrally observing your kids having a tantrum is very different from like going up and giving them a hug, like you will have a very different reaction between in the in those two scenarios.
[00:57:33.440 --> 00:57:52.560] And so, in the example of this monk, through a series of breathwork journeys, just realized that there was a huge amount of unprocessed anger, essentially, and rage that was likely the reason he got into meditation in the first place to kind of avoid feeling that discomfort all the time.
[00:57:52.560 --> 00:58:05.160] And yeah, and I find often often anger is one of the things that, like, once it moves, it releases such like aliveness in the body again and kind of energy and like vibrancy.
[00:58:05.720 --> 00:58:14.680] And even, you know, people, again, this is anecdotal, but people who've been depressed and lethargic for long periods of time, the anger is almost being turned inwards through the inner critic.
[00:58:14.680 --> 00:58:20.120] So they will be like angry at themselves and judging themselves and have all this negative self-talk.
[00:58:20.120 --> 00:58:26.360] And once that anger gets a chance to kind of be expressed and be externalized, it like frees up all this energy.
[00:58:26.360 --> 00:58:31.960] And I love seeing it because it's like, like, someone really comes alive after that moves through.
[00:58:32.680 --> 00:58:46.520] So yeah, I think it's another good example of like a very nuanced pitfall on a path of, you know, you might say, yeah, meditation is great, like meditate as much as you can, but it is if you're only meditating in certain ways.
[00:58:46.520 --> 00:58:56.760] I mean, I think meta practice or like loving kindness practice or jhana practice actually is slightly different versus the kind of mindfulness which is you know most common in our society.
[00:58:56.760 --> 00:59:05.480] It's such an interesting point that this monk, I think you said that he or she had meditated for 20 or 30,000 hours, right?
[00:59:05.720 --> 00:59:18.520] I think most of us would assume that someone who had done that much meditation, especially let's say taking vows as a monk and gone away to meditate, would have processed their emotions and they were living in a state of inner calm.
[00:59:18.760 --> 00:59:20.760] And so I think that really stuck out me when I heard that.
[00:59:20.760 --> 00:59:25.080] I go, wow, how many for us are bypassing our emotions?
[00:59:25.080 --> 00:59:25.720] Exactly.
[00:59:25.720 --> 00:59:30.680] Could I be bypassing my emotions in some parts of my life without realizing it?
[00:59:30.840 --> 00:59:32.520] It's really interesting to reflect on.
[00:59:32.520 --> 00:59:46.240] And you said before, let's say you're in a meeting at work and you feel angry, let's say at your boss, and you're saying it's quite a good skill to be able to suppress that anger and not show it in the moment.
[00:59:44.600 --> 00:59:48.320] Okay, so let's go back to that example.
[00:59:49.280 --> 01:00:00.400] So, I think this is a scenario that many people will feel when whether it's their boss or their colleagues, they're in a situation that they feel angry, but it's not appropriate in their work environment to express that anger.
[01:00:00.400 --> 01:00:08.320] Okay, so for the purpose of that meeting, they kept it in and they were as an inverted commas professional as they could be.
[01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:23.760] What should that person then do, in your view, or what are some of the things that person can then do to feel the anger, to process the anger, and then move on from the anger?
[01:00:29.200 --> 01:00:41.760] This episode is sponsored by Thriver, the personalized blood testing service that helps you listen to your blood and get personalized guidance on how to optimize your health and fitness.
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[01:02:01.480 --> 01:02:05.240] That's thriva.co.
[01:02:05.240 --> 01:02:08.600] Thriver, listen to your blood.
[01:02:15.320 --> 01:02:18.200] So I'll actually give two suggestions here.
[01:02:18.200 --> 01:02:22.120] One's like the kind of beginner level, and the other is like the advanced level.
[01:02:22.120 --> 01:02:26.120] And I'll maybe give some more context around anger as well because it's a really good example.
[01:02:26.440 --> 01:02:31.320] So anger can, in my view, get kinked in two different ways.
[01:02:31.320 --> 01:02:34.680] And if you think of like it moving through a hose pipe, if you kink it one way, something happens.
[01:02:34.680 --> 01:02:36.040] If you kink it the other, something else happens.
[01:02:36.360 --> 01:02:42.760] If you kink it one way, it comes out as like passive aggression, where you know someone's like, oh, like nice t-shirt.
[01:02:42.760 --> 01:02:48.200] Or, you know, it's that kind of like kinked way of like being angry, but not really owning your anger.
[01:02:48.200 --> 01:02:49.320] What's wrong with my t-shirt?
[01:02:49.320 --> 01:02:50.440] Yeah, I mean, mate.
[01:02:51.960 --> 01:02:53.320] You actually have a nice t-shirt on it.
[01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:54.440] I really like it.
[01:02:55.160 --> 01:02:59.800] And then the other way is, you know, what people more commonly think of as anger, which is like aggression.
[01:02:59.800 --> 01:03:01.880] And again, it's not really feeling the anger.
[01:03:01.880 --> 01:03:07.080] It's like blaming someone else for your experience, basically, and being overly aggressive.
[01:03:07.080 --> 01:03:07.480] So, hold on.
[01:03:07.480 --> 01:03:09.160] So let's just really try and land this.
[01:03:09.160 --> 01:03:17.760] So, something's happened that we're feeling angry about, but instead of feeling it, we're sort of blaming the other people.
[01:03:17.840 --> 01:03:18.480] We're getting defensive.
[01:03:18.800 --> 01:03:20.160] We're g

Prompt 2: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 3: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 4: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Prompt 5: Context Setup

You are an expert data extractor tasked with analyzing a podcast transcript. 
I will provide you with part 2 of 2 from a podcast transcript. 
I will then ask you to extract different types of information from this content in subsequent messages. Please confirm you have received and understood the transcript content.

Transcript section:
thriver.co to get started today.
[01:02:01.480 --> 01:02:05.240] That's thriva.co.
[01:02:05.240 --> 01:02:08.600] Thriver, listen to your blood.
[01:02:15.320 --> 01:02:18.200] So I'll actually give two suggestions here.
[01:02:18.200 --> 01:02:22.120] One's like the kind of beginner level, and the other is like the advanced level.
[01:02:22.120 --> 01:02:26.120] And I'll maybe give some more context around anger as well because it's a really good example.
[01:02:26.440 --> 01:02:31.320] So anger can, in my view, get kinked in two different ways.
[01:02:31.320 --> 01:02:34.680] And if you think of like it moving through a hose pipe, if you kink it one way, something happens.
[01:02:34.680 --> 01:02:36.040] If you kink it the other, something else happens.
[01:02:36.360 --> 01:02:42.760] If you kink it one way, it comes out as like passive aggression, where you know someone's like, oh, like nice t-shirt.
[01:02:42.760 --> 01:02:48.200] Or, you know, it's that kind of like kinked way of like being angry, but not really owning your anger.
[01:02:48.200 --> 01:02:49.320] What's wrong with my t-shirt?
[01:02:49.320 --> 01:02:50.440] Yeah, I mean, mate.
[01:02:51.960 --> 01:02:53.320] You actually have a nice t-shirt on it.
[01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:54.440] I really like it.
[01:02:55.160 --> 01:02:59.800] And then the other way is, you know, what people more commonly think of as anger, which is like aggression.
[01:02:59.800 --> 01:03:01.880] And again, it's not really feeling the anger.
[01:03:01.880 --> 01:03:07.080] It's like blaming someone else for your experience, basically, and being overly aggressive.
[01:03:07.080 --> 01:03:07.480] So, hold on.
[01:03:07.480 --> 01:03:09.160] So let's just really try and land this.
[01:03:09.160 --> 01:03:17.760] So, something's happened that we're feeling angry about, but instead of feeling it, we're sort of blaming the other people.
[01:03:17.840 --> 01:03:18.480] We're getting defensive.
[01:03:18.800 --> 01:03:20.160] We're getting defensive, right?
[01:03:20.160 --> 01:03:24.240] So, help people understand what's the difference between that and feeling the anger.
[01:03:24.240 --> 01:03:29.040] Because some people might feel that, hold on a minute, well, that is me being angry.
[01:03:29.040 --> 01:03:34.160] My defensiveness is a reflection of me being angry, but you're saying that's not feeling the anger.
[01:03:34.720 --> 01:03:48.000] Yeah, there's a really, I'd say the best way to articulate this is to the degree that you're kind of grounded and in your body when you're expressing the anger.
[01:03:48.160 --> 01:03:57.840] And so, like anger that it's like clean anger, let's say, is the phrase that I have, is basically just like clarity and determination and like setting a boundary.
[01:03:57.840 --> 01:04:01.360] What comes from really clean anger is like setting a boundary from a place of love.
[01:04:01.360 --> 01:04:04.160] It's like, no, like that's not okay.
[01:04:04.160 --> 01:04:07.760] Like, that's kind of the energy of like clean anger.
[01:04:07.760 --> 01:04:16.080] But often it takes a while to kind of get to the point where we can just express in that kind of like clean, loving way.
[01:04:16.080 --> 01:04:21.360] And so, having a practice, so let's kind of go back to the example of someone in a boardroom.
[01:04:21.360 --> 01:04:23.520] Someone said something super angry.
[01:04:23.520 --> 01:04:26.640] It wasn't appropriate to kind of maybe even speak.
[01:04:26.640 --> 01:04:28.800] So, they leave the room, they're really charged.
[01:04:28.800 --> 01:04:31.440] There's this like, oh, there's like real energy.
[01:04:32.400 --> 01:04:35.680] I mean, there's a number of ways that you can kind of work with this.
[01:04:36.240 --> 01:04:45.280] Some of my clients will like go on drives and they'll just like roll the windows up and drive on the road and just like let it out, like make loud sound.
[01:04:45.280 --> 01:04:52.320] I generally recommend like breath, sound, and movement are three good kind of ways of expressing the energy.
[01:04:52.320 --> 01:04:53.200] Breath, sound, and movement.
[01:04:53.280 --> 01:04:54.080] Breath, sound, and movement.
[01:04:54.080 --> 01:04:56.080] Yeah, and you say expressing the energy.
[01:04:56.080 --> 01:04:59.200] Is that the same as feeling the energy?
[01:04:59.200 --> 01:05:00.360] Or is that subtly different?
[01:05:00.680 --> 01:05:15.080] So some of the signs that I can kind of give to people are like if you feel a sense of relief or like an exhale or like a sigh afterwards, that particular reflex or that motion has completed.
[01:05:15.400 --> 01:05:16.200] Okay, hold on.
[01:05:16.200 --> 01:05:16.360] Right.
[01:05:16.440 --> 01:05:17.880] So you went, you okay.
[01:05:17.880 --> 01:05:19.160] Let's make it super practical.
[01:05:19.240 --> 01:05:20.520] So you're in the room.
[01:05:20.520 --> 01:05:22.040] You don't like something that's happened.
[01:05:22.200 --> 01:05:25.800] You feel your boss hasn't spoken to you in the way that you think is appropriate.
[01:05:25.800 --> 01:05:26.200] Okay.
[01:05:26.840 --> 01:05:30.920] And but you keep a lid on it, but you're you're angry on the inside.
[01:05:30.920 --> 01:05:31.160] Okay.
[01:05:31.160 --> 01:05:32.200] The meeting finishes.
[01:05:32.200 --> 01:05:33.640] Let's say it's lunchtime now.
[01:05:33.640 --> 01:05:36.520] You've got you've got a one-hour lunch break.
[01:05:36.520 --> 01:05:36.840] Yeah.
[01:05:36.840 --> 01:05:37.400] Okay.
[01:05:38.120 --> 01:05:43.640] And you're saying earlier that that emotion technically is only there for 10 or 20 seconds, right?
[01:05:43.640 --> 01:05:46.760] Yet many people are still angry a week later, okay?
[01:05:46.760 --> 01:05:48.600] Which is clearly a problem.
[01:05:49.240 --> 01:05:51.000] What can they do in that lunch break?
[01:05:51.000 --> 01:05:51.400] Okay.
[01:05:51.400 --> 01:05:53.640] So they're, you know, maybe they haven't got a car.
[01:05:53.640 --> 01:05:55.160] They can't go for a drive at the coast.
[01:05:55.160 --> 01:05:57.320] They can't go and ground in the local park.
[01:05:57.320 --> 01:06:03.720] I mean, imagine it's a rainy, cold, dark winter's day and that's happened to someone.
[01:06:04.280 --> 01:06:10.440] What can they do in that one hour break that allows them to feel that anger and process it?
[01:06:10.440 --> 01:06:11.080] Yeah, okay.
[01:06:11.080 --> 01:06:14.040] So really, yeah, really great example.
[01:06:14.040 --> 01:06:19.400] Often I will say it's ideal if you can kind of be in your own home, especially if you're kind of doing this in the beginning.
[01:06:19.400 --> 01:06:22.040] So it's helpful to maybe like wait till the end of the day.
[01:06:22.040 --> 01:06:22.360] Great.
[01:06:22.360 --> 01:06:26.440] And go back, like go to your bedroom, like a kind of private space.
[01:06:26.680 --> 01:06:33.320] The simplest is either like kind of hitting pillows sometimes would be good, like allowing some sound to move through.
[01:06:33.320 --> 01:06:37.160] Can you even say, God, that guy's such an idiot, and bang your pillow.
[01:06:37.160 --> 01:06:37.640] Completely.
[01:06:37.640 --> 01:06:39.400] You know, that you would say that's healthy.
[01:06:39.440 --> 01:06:40.680] I would say, I would say it's healthy.
[01:06:40.680 --> 01:07:07.920] I think the key thing is that at some point, you have to, and this kind of comes back to the top-down, bottom-up distinction: is if you are constantly recycling the story of what happened and not actually connected to the sensations that are associated with the anger, what we call just like looping, where it will feel as if the anger goes on forever because you're kind of connected to the story, and the story is continuously like bringing up more and more.
[01:07:08.080 --> 01:07:12.720] So, your mind actually now from the top is actually generating more stress.
[01:07:12.720 --> 01:07:13.440] Yes, exactly.
[01:07:13.440 --> 01:07:20.880] And it's actually taking that anger that actually is that short-term feeling and emotion that you have that perhaps you haven't felt.
[01:07:20.880 --> 01:07:26.160] And the story you're telling yourself is pouring fuel on the fire, making the anger much bigger than it is.
[01:07:26.160 --> 01:07:26.880] Exactly.
[01:07:26.880 --> 01:07:28.880] So, this is where the body comes in, right?
[01:07:28.880 --> 01:07:45.600] So, the key is, and then coming back to like full circle back to interoception, if you can connect to the sensations that you're experiencing, so for many people, it's like heat, it's like tightness in the chest, and then kind of make the movements or sounds from that place.
[01:07:45.600 --> 01:08:00.000] That's when there's the sense of like, like, oh, like, and you know, it will take you know, 10, 20, 30 seconds, sometimes longer for people, but there will be a felt sense of like relaxation and just like, oh, like, thank God on the other side of that.
[01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:00.960] Yeah, okay.
[01:08:00.960 --> 01:08:09.920] So, let's say you come out of your bedroom, you've acknowledged you're angry, which is important because some people don't even acknowledge that.
[01:08:09.920 --> 01:08:12.640] They think, oh, like you said before, everyone thought you were calm.
[01:08:12.640 --> 01:08:14.720] Yeah, yeah, you're suppressing, right?
[01:08:14.720 --> 01:08:19.520] So, it came across as calm, but actually, there was a there was a whole tension behind that calmness.
[01:08:20.880 --> 01:08:28.960] Okay, so someone could just lie there or sit down, make sure the belly's coming out, make sure they're really breathing, feeling where the tension is, trying to let it go.
[01:08:29.280 --> 01:08:30.040] Okay.
[01:08:29.440 --> 01:08:34.200] Some people even struggle with something like that, especially initially.
[01:08:34.360 --> 01:08:38.040] They're not used to feeling that tension in their body.
[01:08:38.040 --> 01:08:38.920] No, totally.
[01:08:39.240 --> 01:08:50.280] If they were so inclined and they went to their, on their street or their local park and did five minutes of hard sprinting, let's say, right?
[01:08:50.280 --> 01:08:58.760] Because we're saying that there's an emotion stored in our body, maybe stored in our muscles, depending on what you believe and what you read and what your take is on that.
[01:08:59.720 --> 01:09:11.880] This idea that you don't need to know with your mind how you're processing something, but you can do it simply through your body is a really seductive concept to me, right?
[01:09:11.880 --> 01:09:21.000] I think about the Impala and how the Impala hasn't actually, not that I know what it's like to be an Impala, okay, to be clear, right?
[01:09:21.000 --> 01:09:23.000] But I'm guessing the Impala.
[01:09:23.240 --> 01:09:25.480] It's probably not telling a story about that bloody lion.
[01:09:25.480 --> 01:09:26.120] Yeah.
[01:09:26.440 --> 01:09:32.440] They've just got this intuitive mechanism that perhaps we have had before and we've lost, right?
[01:09:32.760 --> 01:09:36.520] Of shaking it out of their system so that they're free afterwards.
[01:09:37.560 --> 01:09:42.040] Could it be as simple as that for some humans where we shake it out of our system?
[01:09:42.040 --> 01:09:44.040] Is that why yoga is so useful?
[01:09:44.040 --> 01:09:45.080] Is that why sprinting?
[01:09:45.080 --> 01:09:47.080] Is that why jumping jets can be so useful?
[01:09:47.080 --> 01:09:57.240] Because I think for some people, that might feel easier than sitting in silence and trying to see where is there tightness in my body?
[01:09:57.240 --> 01:09:58.440] Can I let that go?
[01:09:58.760 --> 01:09:59.560] Help us understand that.
[01:09:59.560 --> 01:10:01.880] Yeah, so there's two things I want to add to that.
[01:10:01.880 --> 01:10:10.040] The first is that there is, I think, actually an important role for a top-down orientation in this process.
[01:10:10.040 --> 01:10:21.200] And for me, I really remember this, I was doing a breathwork training, and my teacher said to me, he said, you are loved in your anger.
[01:10:21.840 --> 01:10:26.000] And I just like, I remember in that moment, I just broke down crying.
[01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:39.520] And I think that many of us, particularly maybe men growing up in England, like myself, there's a way in which like, I think when I was younger, I'd hurt other people from like in fits of anger.
[01:10:39.520 --> 01:10:43.760] And I then viewed my anger as being inherently bad.
[01:10:43.760 --> 01:10:45.040] And this was kind of happening.
[01:10:45.040 --> 01:10:45.840] I wasn't aware of that.
[01:10:45.840 --> 01:10:48.320] It was like below my conscious awareness.
[01:10:48.320 --> 01:10:57.920] And having that frame of like, oh, I can still be loved even when I'm being angry was like, Jesus, like that just like opened me up.
[01:10:57.920 --> 01:11:12.080] And it allowed me to allow anger to kind of flow in a way that I wasn't actually trying to kind of like contract against it because I had a belief that I was inherently bad if I was being an angry person.
[01:11:12.080 --> 01:11:27.440] And so I think that's, and I imagine there's many people out there that consciously or unconsciously have that kind of belief running in the background of like, and you know, even meditation, like it can subtly reinforce this idea of like, you're bad if you're angry, like you're a bad meditator if anger comes up.
[01:11:27.440 --> 01:11:31.040] And so I think that's, that was a big unlock for me personally.
[01:11:31.040 --> 01:11:44.480] And then secondly, kind of speaking to the way that you, the way that this moves, at the risk of sounding like, like, woo or whatever, there's a way in which the body has its own intelligence, right?
[01:11:44.800 --> 01:11:50.400] And all you need to do is get out of the way, and the body will know how to complete that.
[01:11:50.400 --> 01:12:02.120] And so, what I think, like, sprinting can be great, shaking can be great, but really, all you're doing is trying to kind of like get to the point where the body will almost just start moving on its own and it'll just know what to do.
[01:11:59.840 --> 01:12:04.760] And you just have to like witness it and just watch it happen.
[01:12:05.400 --> 01:12:10.200] And so, many of these practices, so I have one called somatic surfing, somatic experiencing.
[01:12:10.200 --> 01:12:23.160] There's many different sometimes shaking, sometimes TRE, there's many ways of like getting into this state, but ultimately, you're just trying to get back to like what that Impala already knew, which is this just way of discharging the energy.
[01:12:23.160 --> 01:12:24.280] Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?
[01:12:24.280 --> 01:12:32.280] We think we've become more advanced, you know, like the human minds, and look at all these buildings and all this technology.
[01:12:32.280 --> 01:12:39.160] And of course, depending on how you look at the world, you could say humans are incredibly advanced in terms of what we can now do.
[01:12:39.480 --> 01:13:06.440] But I do question that sometimes because you know, if you look at like some pretty objective data, despite all the material things we have access to and all the technology, and you know, the fact that many of us now are living lives that are better than royalty maybe 250 years ago, in terms of the standard of our lives and that in terms of material quality, unhappiness is on the rise, anxiety is on the rise, depression is on the rise.
[01:13:06.440 --> 01:13:14.920] So, I even sometimes question this kind of whole idea that, oh, you know, we're getting better because are we?
[01:13:14.920 --> 01:13:23.880] Yeah, of course, we are in some levels, but that Impala seems to have that, you know, innate intelligence that it hasn't lost yet.
[01:13:24.120 --> 01:13:27.160] Now, of course, the Impala's life is under threat every day as well.
[01:13:27.160 --> 01:13:34.760] So, I acknowledge that, you know, thankfully, I live in a safe country, in a safe place where my life is not under threat.
[01:13:34.760 --> 01:13:35.960] So, I'm not trying to romanticize.
[01:13:35.960 --> 01:13:37.320] It's not either or, is it?
[01:13:37.320 --> 01:13:51.200] It's like, how can we live in this beautiful world in which humans have created and at the same time not lose the innate intelligence that all of us had that those guys, the wild animals, still have, that we've lost.
[01:13:51.200 --> 01:13:58.320] I really do like that idea that the body knows what to do if we get out of its way.
[01:13:58.320 --> 01:13:58.880] Totally.
[01:13:58.880 --> 01:13:59.280] Totally.
[01:13:59.280 --> 01:14:06.720] Well, the way that I think about this on maybe like the deepest level is this idea of like coming back home to ourselves.
[01:14:06.720 --> 01:14:12.960] But the phrase that I really like is secure attachment with life, secure attachment with reality.
[01:14:12.960 --> 01:14:26.480] And most people, you know, many people have heard of this idea of having attachment strategies with partners, but this idea of coming back to feeling fundamentally at home in our bodies and in the world.
[01:14:26.480 --> 01:14:44.720] And I think ultimately this is what is, this is the, you know, the deeper journey of nervous system mastery is opening up these latches, is creating the conditions of safety so that all parts of our psyche learn to feel inherently like safe in the world.
[01:14:44.720 --> 01:14:50.320] And the safer you feel, the less you will get triggered, the less you will get reactive, the less you will get anxious.
[01:14:50.320 --> 01:14:56.640] And the way that I've started to view this for myself is viewing anxiety as like, it's like a beautiful signpost.
[01:14:56.640 --> 01:15:03.600] It's like, oh, like here's a way in which you're still protecting yourself from some aspect of your experience.
[01:15:03.600 --> 01:15:05.120] And like, what a, what a gift.
[01:15:05.120 --> 01:15:10.000] Like, that's an invitation to kind of get curious about it, to move towards it.
[01:15:10.240 --> 01:15:14.720] Maybe like courageous curiosity, because it takes some courage to kind of move into it.
[01:15:14.720 --> 01:15:20.640] But like, like on the other side, there's like, there's like more freedom, there's more agency, there's more aliveness.
[01:15:20.640 --> 01:15:24.320] And that for me is like, it almost turns life into a game, right?
[01:15:24.320 --> 01:15:31.720] It's like every little time I start to get like triggered or annoyed or whatever it is, that's like, oh, cool, like, I wonder what's there for me.
[01:15:31.880 --> 01:15:34.200] I know for many years, love it when I get triggered.
[01:15:34.200 --> 01:15:34.760] Nice.
[01:15:29.760 --> 01:15:39.720] Honestly, I know it sounds ridiculous to some people, maybe not to you, but I'm like, oh, wow.
[01:15:39.720 --> 01:15:49.560] Because without that triggering, I would have, I would never have had the opportunity to kind of process this thing that's under the surface that I'm not maybe cognizantly aware of.
[01:15:49.560 --> 01:16:02.360] And it's only by that experience, that comment, that event that, you know, because you can either push it away or go, oh, wow, there's still something there on process.
[01:16:02.440 --> 01:16:09.400] There's still something because the thing that you think is triggering you is not the thing that's actually triggering you.
[01:16:09.400 --> 01:16:11.160] Or it's not the root cause of it, is it?
[01:16:11.160 --> 01:16:11.720] Yeah, yeah.
[01:16:11.720 --> 01:16:14.760] It's something else underneath that hasn't been processed.
[01:16:14.760 --> 01:16:15.640] It's like a beautiful mirror.
[01:16:15.640 --> 01:16:16.360] So something that's happening.
[01:16:16.360 --> 01:16:16.920] It's a beautiful mirror.
[01:16:17.720 --> 01:16:21.320] I know you're a fan of this quote from a tribe.
[01:16:22.040 --> 01:16:25.400] Knowledge is only a rumor until it lives in the muscle.
[01:16:26.520 --> 01:16:30.920] And I think we can interpret that in many different ways.
[01:16:31.240 --> 01:16:38.520] But I kind of think we can apply it also to some of the things that you've just said and we've been talking about.
[01:16:39.160 --> 01:16:42.280] You know, we're living in a world of more and more knowledge, aren't we?
[01:16:42.280 --> 01:16:46.440] Where there's more podcasts, there's more health blogs, there's more health books, right?
[01:16:46.440 --> 01:16:49.160] So we've got more and more knowledge in our minds.
[01:16:50.200 --> 01:16:54.680] I think a lot of the time people feel that they've done something with that knowledge when they haven't.
[01:16:54.680 --> 01:16:56.920] They've just heard the knowledge.
[01:16:57.240 --> 01:17:04.520] And I passionately believe that the most important things in life can't be taught.
[01:17:04.520 --> 01:17:05.880] They have to be experienced.
[01:17:05.920 --> 01:17:14.800] Yes, and I think that quote really speaks to that and speaks to this idea that actually we need our minds to get out of the way.
[01:17:13.080 --> 01:17:18.320] And if we get out of the way, our body just does it for us.
[01:17:18.320 --> 01:17:18.880] Exactly.
[01:17:14.040 --> 01:17:19.600] Yeah, exactly.
[01:17:19.920 --> 01:17:29.680] So, the way that I like to teach with my coaching clients and in the course is through this idea of being a scientist of your own experience.
[01:17:30.320 --> 01:17:35.520] And, you know, like you said, you can listen to a hundred podcasts and you can hear the same thing over and over again.
[01:17:35.520 --> 01:17:44.000] But if you don't run some kind of experiment in your own life to actually verify it, it won't land in your system as true.
[01:17:44.000 --> 01:17:49.760] And so I think there's an amazing opportunity for just so many creative experiments that you can create.
[01:17:49.760 --> 01:17:53.200] And I know you kind of have some of these on your tour and in your book.
[01:17:53.200 --> 01:18:03.440] I think kind of co-creating experiments with people so they can feel some of these things for themselves is the way that we learn.
[01:18:03.440 --> 01:18:19.680] And so an example might be: I love recommending people take a cold shower, but not because of the health benefits, even though there are a bunch of health benefits, but paying like really close attention to what happens to your body as you start to go towards the cold, icy water.
[01:18:19.680 --> 01:18:26.400] And for most people, there's a sense of like contracting and tensing, like you're bracing yourself against the freezing cold water.
[01:18:26.400 --> 01:18:29.760] I used to go swimming around the pier in Brighton every morning.
[01:18:29.760 --> 01:18:34.640] And most of the time, I'd approach it and I'd be like, oh, like I'm going to be freezing.
[01:18:34.640 --> 01:18:42.560] And that bracing is the same, the exact same response that we have to emotions and to kind of life situations.
[01:18:42.560 --> 01:18:54.400] And if you can kind of be attuned to what that feels like in your body and gradually start to relax, the cold and emotions can actually feel very just like enlivening.
[01:18:54.400 --> 01:18:59.640] And for me, this was actually how I kind of moved through grief.
[01:18:59.120 --> 01:19:03.080] I lost my ex-fiancé, took her own life.
[01:19:03.720 --> 01:19:11.720] And it was through going swimming around this pier in Brighton and learning to like let in the cold and not tense against it.
[01:19:11.720 --> 01:19:21.160] And then applying that same like move in a way to the grief and just allowing it to kind of move through me that I was like, wow.
[01:19:21.720 --> 01:19:24.200] And that totally, like, that changed my life.
[01:19:25.000 --> 01:19:35.080] And so finding ways to create experiments, I mean, you could take a number of things that we've talked about and design your own experiment around it so that you can see if you can feel it.
[01:19:35.080 --> 01:19:41.880] And another example is, you know, doing humming or doing one of the breath work practices, like 4, 7, 8 breathing.
[01:19:41.880 --> 01:19:49.880] It won't stick unless you notice how you feel in the beginning, you do the breathing practice, and then you notice how you feel afterwards.
[01:19:49.880 --> 01:19:55.160] And if you feel different or better, that will like register in your body of like, oh, like, I'll do that again.
[01:19:55.160 --> 01:20:03.000] And you'll remember to do it in a time down the line when you need it, as opposed to just intellectually thinking that it's a good idea.
[01:20:03.000 --> 01:20:06.920] Hey, man, I'm sorry to hear about what you've been through.
[01:20:09.400 --> 01:20:11.880] Do you feel able to share a little bit more about that?
[01:20:11.880 --> 01:20:21.720] Because it sounds though that was pivotal in the journey you've embarked upon and what you do today.
[01:20:22.040 --> 01:20:26.600] Yeah, yeah, I was actually down in Brighton yesterday visiting her memorial tree.
[01:20:26.760 --> 01:20:29.240] It was a tree that we planted down there.
[01:20:30.280 --> 01:20:42.040] I mean, I think what's relevant to this conversation is Sophie was a junior doctor and she suffered from an anxiety attack one morning at work when I was traveling in Portugal.
[01:20:42.040 --> 01:20:46.560] And she came back and she took her own life and she overdosed her medication.
[01:20:46.560 --> 01:21:05.200] And yeah, I mean, this completely, this was like my pivotal kind of turning point where I'd never, you know, I'd had a pretty great childhood, I'd never been through anything hard or challenging, but I'd seen other adults who had, who had not digested their grief.
[01:21:05.200 --> 01:21:15.120] And there was this sense of like, almost like deadness or numbness or like lack of aliveness in them that I was honestly, I was like terrified by.
[01:21:15.120 --> 01:21:23.680] And I said to myself, like, if I don't move towards this grief, I will end up like those like husks of human beings.
[01:21:23.680 --> 01:21:29.920] And so I kind of turned towards it and went like really leaned in.
[01:21:30.640 --> 01:21:35.600] In the beginning, it was meditation retreats, breath work, all this kind of stuff.
[01:21:35.600 --> 01:21:40.400] And like learning how to feel the grief, essentially.
[01:21:40.400 --> 01:21:46.400] And there was one moment that I just like really, really remember.
[01:21:46.800 --> 01:21:52.080] I was kind of approaching her memorial bench in this place called Leova Sands.
[01:21:52.400 --> 01:21:58.160] And every step I took towards it, there was this intensity building in my system.
[01:21:58.160 --> 01:22:04.160] And it just felt like the grief was like a tidal wave that was moving through me.
[01:22:04.160 --> 01:22:14.320] And as I got closer and closer, it felt like it almost just like more than I could take and it almost just like obliterated me.
[01:22:14.320 --> 01:22:22.320] But what was so shocking was that if I let go of the story about having this tragic loss, it actually felt beautiful.
[01:22:22.320 --> 01:22:29.200] It felt like it was like the energy of love, like the energy of like deep connection and like rawness.
[01:22:29.240 --> 01:22:37.480] And that was such a that was, it was just confusing in the beginning because I was like, grief is meant to be this like hard, challenging thing.
[01:22:37.480 --> 01:22:46.440] This terrible thing happened to me and to her, but it was, it was beautiful and it felt almost like deeply joyful in a way.
[01:22:46.440 --> 01:22:52.840] And that just at that point, I was like, okay, everything I thought I knew about emotions is clearly like I have more to learn here.
[01:22:53.080 --> 01:23:00.120] And so that kind of set me on this path, which eventually landed in the nervous system work and kind of teaching this stuff.
[01:23:00.120 --> 01:23:00.920] Yeah.
[01:23:02.840 --> 01:23:05.080] Many people struggle with death.
[01:23:05.560 --> 01:23:10.520] They don't know what to do when a loved one dies.
[01:23:12.120 --> 01:23:27.160] And I once heard you say that you believe that the five stages of grief might well be the five ways in which we try and resist grief, which is really powerful.
[01:23:27.160 --> 01:23:29.160] It's very thought-provoking.
[01:23:29.160 --> 01:23:41.400] And it kind of fits with an idea that I think has probably been sitting on top of everything we've spoken about today, which is this idea that, you know, what we resist persists.
[01:23:41.400 --> 01:23:41.720] Yeah.
[01:23:41.720 --> 01:23:49.560] So this idea that actually we live in the world, we interact with the world, and we're going to feel certain emotions.
[01:23:49.880 --> 01:24:01.320] And as long as we feel that emotion, process the emotion, and then move on from the emotion, in many ways it doesn't stay stuck within us.
[01:24:01.320 --> 01:24:05.400] It doesn't cause that emotional debt that you were talking about earlier.
[01:24:06.040 --> 01:24:13.720] And I think people can get their head around that with the boss who maybe talks to them badly at work.
[01:24:13.720 --> 01:24:14.120] Okay.
[01:24:14.960 --> 01:24:21.600] But when it comes to death and grief, I think people then think, well, this is a completely different scenario.
[01:24:21.920 --> 01:24:26.560] So you've obviously been through some incredible grief.
[01:24:26.560 --> 01:24:30.560] And thank you for sharing certain elements of that story.
[01:24:30.560 --> 01:24:32.560] It's very, very powerful.
[01:24:34.960 --> 01:24:41.440] What would you like to say to someone who's listening right now who is really struggling with grief?
[01:24:41.440 --> 01:24:47.120] They're overwhelmed and they don't know what to do and they're feeling stuck.
[01:24:48.320 --> 01:24:49.600] What would you say to them?
[01:24:50.720 --> 01:25:00.720] Yeah, I mean, I would say there is a healthy denial, I think, that happened in the beginning.
[01:25:00.720 --> 01:25:05.840] Like for me, there was almost this like overwhelm, numbness.
[01:25:05.840 --> 01:25:08.080] It was almost like too much to process, I think.
[01:25:08.080 --> 01:25:10.960] And that's just part of the process.
[01:25:11.920 --> 01:25:21.360] I think that at some point I had this idea of this mantra in my mind of like, I am willing, was like the phrase that I said to myself.
[01:25:21.360 --> 01:25:34.880] And it almost felt like being willing to be obliterated by this like tsunami wave of grief and intensity that felt like it felt like too much to too much to experience.
[01:25:34.880 --> 01:25:39.520] And I think parts of my identity had to die.
[01:25:39.520 --> 01:25:49.600] Like the future vision I had of our relationship and of having a family and of you know the life that I had imagined for us together, that had to die.
[01:25:49.600 --> 01:25:51.200] And I think that's what that's what grief is.
[01:25:51.200 --> 01:25:58.880] Like we experience it with changes in um location, in not only living losing loved ones, but it happens all the time.
[01:25:58.880 --> 01:26:15.080] And I think it's it's allowing parts of our identity to to literally be obliterated and that in the beginning feels initially painful but my my experience was that it was almost like it deepened my capacity to love over time.
[01:26:15.080 --> 01:26:17.720] It was almost like hollowing me out.
[01:26:18.040 --> 01:26:26.520] And yeah, I felt in many moments this raw aliveness.
[01:26:27.960 --> 01:26:32.200] And again, it's kind of exemplifies many of the themes we've talked about.
[01:26:33.080 --> 01:26:35.560] There is this like innate intelligence in me.
[01:26:35.560 --> 01:26:40.760] Like my body, my nervous system knew how to feel and process the grief.
[01:26:40.760 --> 01:26:48.360] I just had to show up and be willing to let it move through me in all the ways that it did.
[01:26:48.360 --> 01:26:58.040] And to the idea of like the five stages of grief being the ways that we resist it, I think that it's almost like the ways in which that grief gets like kinked in our system.
[01:26:58.040 --> 01:27:01.080] Maybe we blame the circumstances for what happened.
[01:27:01.080 --> 01:27:08.680] Or in the beginning, there was part of myself that I blamed myself for not doing more and for not, you know, spotting it and these things.
[01:27:08.680 --> 01:27:15.400] And it would have been very easy for me to get almost like stuck in that endless loop and that endless eddy.
[01:27:16.520 --> 01:27:23.960] But for whatever, you know, maybe good fortune, maybe good luck, I was able to just like allow it to keep on moving and keep on unfolding.
[01:27:23.960 --> 01:27:28.200] And this is, again, kind of coming back to the nervous system.
[01:27:28.200 --> 01:27:32.600] Dysregulation is just when we get stuck.
[01:27:33.320 --> 01:27:38.040] It's when we don't allow the kind of natural cycles to complete.
[01:27:38.600 --> 01:27:42.440] It doesn't mean we don't experience enormous intensities of emotion.
[01:27:42.440 --> 01:27:48.400] And I think grief being like a particularly vivid and extreme example that people can relate to.
[01:27:50.000 --> 01:27:55.040] You said the cold helped you start to face that grief and feel it.
[01:27:55.920 --> 01:28:03.600] The cold is sort of a mechanism that kind of forces people to be in their bodies.
[01:28:03.600 --> 01:28:04.000] Yeah.
[01:28:04.000 --> 01:28:04.400] Right?
[01:28:04.400 --> 01:28:09.360] You can try not to, but you know, depending on how cold it is, you're going to ultimately end up there.
[01:28:09.680 --> 01:28:11.840] So let's just really unpick that.
[01:28:11.840 --> 01:28:18.640] So you're struggling with grief, or someone is struggling with grief.
[01:28:18.960 --> 01:28:25.200] How might a cold shower help them start to feel that emotion?
[01:28:26.160 --> 01:28:26.560] Yeah.
[01:28:27.200 --> 01:28:27.760] Yeah.
[01:28:27.760 --> 01:28:33.280] So I'll use the example of when I was swimming in the cold, but it could apply to a shower as well.
[01:28:33.280 --> 01:28:39.520] Like in the beginning, there is that bracing, that kind of like defending against the cold.
[01:28:39.840 --> 01:28:47.200] And with, you know, after maybe 30 seconds, maybe a minute or so, that intensity starts to die down.
[01:28:47.200 --> 01:28:51.040] And I almost imagined like letting the cold in.
[01:28:51.360 --> 01:28:55.280] And I felt in my body there was like less tension, less bracing.
[01:28:55.280 --> 01:28:58.400] And it's also at the same time, it stops being uncomfortable.
[01:28:58.400 --> 01:29:04.160] And at a certain point, the cold actually feels, there's like heat gets generated in the body and it feels good.
[01:29:04.160 --> 01:29:05.200] It feels amazing.
[01:29:05.200 --> 01:29:06.320] When you start resisting.
[01:29:06.320 --> 01:29:06.800] Yeah, exactly.
[01:29:06.960 --> 01:29:13.840] Like for anyone who's done a cold plunge or a cold shower, like once you start resisting, before you know it, you feel totally relaxed.
[01:29:13.840 --> 01:29:14.400] Exactly.
[01:29:14.400 --> 01:29:16.240] But you feel like you're holding, oh, it's cold.
[01:29:16.240 --> 01:29:16.720] You're tight.
[01:29:16.720 --> 01:29:17.120] You're tight.
[01:29:17.120 --> 01:29:17.760] You're holding on.
[01:29:17.760 --> 01:29:22.240] But we don't realize you just need to let go and actually lean into it.
[01:29:22.240 --> 01:29:24.320] And actually, it gets a lot more comfortable.
[01:29:24.320 --> 01:29:27.120] So, it trains that move of letting go.
[01:29:27.120 --> 01:29:33.240] And I think that's the thing that we that's the rep that we need to do in order to practice.
[01:29:29.680 --> 01:29:34.120] I love that.
[01:29:34.280 --> 01:29:45.160] It sounds like it's not that you had decided, right, I need to process my grief, and so I'm going to go into the ocean to help me process it.
[01:29:45.160 --> 01:29:54.840] It sounds like it was subtly different, which is when I'm in the ocean, it allows me to stop resisting, and as you say, let go.
[01:29:54.840 --> 01:30:10.200] So, the skill that I'm practicing in the cold water then is a universal skill that I am naturally starting to apply to every other element in my life, including my ability to not resist the grief.
[01:30:10.200 --> 01:30:14.200] Exactly, yeah, exactly, right?
[01:30:14.520 --> 01:30:21.400] Which I guess in many ways speaks to this wider concept of bottom-up practices, okay.
[01:30:21.400 --> 01:30:29.320] Taking this out of grief, you offer people, and we discussed a few of them.
[01:30:29.320 --> 01:30:33.560] And I know on your website, on your course, you offer way more, right?
[01:30:33.560 --> 01:30:56.760] But it sounds like there's a variety of different body-based actions, practices that people can do: breath work, cold shower, progressive relaxation, the APE, awareness, posture, emotion, you know, expanding our awareness, whatever it might be for some people, it'll be yoga, right?
[01:30:58.360 --> 01:31:16.240] And is the suggestion for people to play around and experiment with curiosity, a variety of these practices, and maybe choose a couple that they really like that they can practice regularly that allows them to train this skill of letting go.
[01:31:16.480 --> 01:31:18.720] Is that a useful way to look at it for people?
[01:31:14.520 --> 01:31:20.320] I think that's a really useful way to put it.
[01:31:20.640 --> 01:31:27.920] And I think I really emphasize the experiment-based approach because everyone is coming to this work from a different place.
[01:31:27.920 --> 01:31:36.000] Like some people might be experiencing anxiety, some people might be experiencing grief, some people might be burnt out and just really stressed.
[01:31:36.000 --> 01:31:42.480] And there's going to need to be a different approach or a different kind of prescription for everyone, depending on where they're at.
[01:31:42.480 --> 01:31:54.480] And, you know, for some people, maybe just practicing interception, that's often a really good starting point for a lot of people, is just gaining 10% more awareness of their internal state at five times during the day.
[01:31:54.640 --> 01:31:59.200] And again, you have mentioned a few things, but how can somebody do that quite simply?
[01:31:59.200 --> 01:32:17.040] Yeah, so I mean, I recommend either kind of setting a little timer or doing it first thing after you wake up in the morning, and then a little time during the day when you have a transition moment, and then to help downshift or to kind of transition at the end of the day, maybe after a workday or something.
[01:32:17.040 --> 01:32:17.520] Yeah.
[01:32:17.520 --> 01:32:24.320] I find on a personal level that, you know, so many of us store tension and stress in our pelvis.
[01:32:24.320 --> 01:32:25.440] Yeah, completely.
[01:32:25.440 --> 01:32:39.680] And so one thing I find quite useful is, you know, at various points of the day, I'll just stop and make sure I'm taking some big whole body breaths into my lower abdomen, really focus on my diaphragm and my pelvic floor and how it's moving.
[01:32:39.680 --> 01:32:47.280] And, you know, I think those things, we just don't realize how powerful they are.
[01:32:47.280 --> 01:32:53.440] Because instead of them, that tension building up and you're not doing that, so it just keeps a cumite, keeps a cumite, keeps a cumulite.
[01:32:53.440 --> 01:32:56.640] So you think the, you know, you think it was the email at 5 p.m.
[01:32:56.720 --> 01:32:57.280] that bothered you.
[01:32:57.280 --> 01:32:58.720] No, it wasn't the email at 5 p.m.
[01:32:58.720 --> 01:33:02.600] that bothered you, it was the fact that you were just accumulating stress, stress, stress, emotional debt.
[01:33:02.600 --> 01:33:07.240] So by the time you read that email, you were past your window tolerance.
[01:33:07.240 --> 01:33:07.960] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:33:07.960 --> 01:33:17.640] I mean, it's funny, as you were saying that, I like, I kind of, even without thinking about it, I noticed I brought my awareness down to my pelvis and I felt it's like, oh, there's like, I was holding tension in my lower back, like, even just from this.
[01:33:17.800 --> 01:33:28.200] And also, something that people don't like to talk about is cosmetically, we have been taught, whether consciously or unconsciously, to hold our tummies in.
[01:33:28.280 --> 01:33:29.080] To have a flat belly.
[01:33:29.080 --> 01:33:29.400] Yeah.
[01:33:29.400 --> 01:33:29.640] Yeah.
[01:33:30.040 --> 01:33:36.680] So people walking around terrible for movement, terrible for your pelvic floor, terrible for stress.
[01:33:37.080 --> 01:33:43.480] But I think people have been conditioned, myself included, for many years, so much that we don't even realize when we're doing it.
[01:33:43.480 --> 01:33:48.360] So we need to bring this kind of conscious awareness to, don't hold your belly in, don't hold your belly in.
[01:33:48.920 --> 01:33:49.640] Do you know what I mean?
[01:33:50.200 --> 01:33:50.760] It's everywhere.
[01:33:50.760 --> 01:33:54.040] It's like, you know, you mentioned top down, bottom up, but also the environment.
[01:33:54.040 --> 01:34:01.560] Well, that's the environmental conditioning teaching so many of us to hold tension in our bodies by holding our tummies in.
[01:34:01.560 --> 01:34:02.200] No, completely.
[01:34:02.200 --> 01:34:18.360] And there's also another kind of interesting anecdotal correlation I've noticed is once people start to be able to bring awareness and breath down into the pelvic floor and in the bellies, there's a sense of, there's a like an embodied sense of safety, which doesn't make sense unless you've actually experienced it.
[01:34:18.360 --> 01:34:29.560] But there's something about releasing tension there and bringing breath and like and presence down there that creates a sense of, I think it's like a sense of grounded safety that people self-report.
[01:34:29.560 --> 01:34:38.840] And then from that place of safety, you can move through the world making less fear-based kind of predictions and decisions.
[01:34:38.840 --> 01:34:39.400] Yeah.
[01:34:40.680 --> 01:34:54.160] I love Johnny observing societal trends and trying to sit back and go, what does this societal trend tell us about the state of society?
[01:34:54.160 --> 01:34:54.720] Okay.
[01:34:55.360 --> 01:35:06.480] So I've got a couple of questions that have just come up for me that I want to put to you about what these trends tell us about the state of our nervous systems.
[01:35:06.800 --> 01:35:07.280] Okay.
[01:35:07.840 --> 01:35:12.560] There's more and more people now intentionally embracing the cold, right?
[01:35:12.560 --> 01:35:14.400] Cold plunge, cold showers.
[01:35:14.400 --> 01:35:16.640] We've spoken about that today a little bit.
[01:35:17.440 --> 01:35:26.080] What do you think that growing trend of cold plunges tells us about the state of societal nervous systems, if anything?
[01:35:28.000 --> 01:35:29.520] Yeah, interesting.
[01:35:29.840 --> 01:35:41.360] If I was to kind of hazard a guess, I think there's a lot of people that feel in some way like numb to their lives and to the world.
[01:35:41.360 --> 01:35:48.800] And my guess is that many people are looking for experiences that help them to feel alive.
[01:35:49.120 --> 01:36:02.320] And I think that freezing cold water is an incredibly efficient mechanism for creating a like undeniable sense of aliveness in the body, even if it's only for a short period of time.
[01:36:02.320 --> 01:36:13.200] And my guess is that that would be part of it, you know, beyond the kind of health benefits and there's a kind of like bravado and like kind of power that comes from it as well.
[01:36:13.200 --> 01:36:22.800] But I think for me at least there's part of the draw, is there's there's a sense of aliveness and also a sense of like empowerment.
[01:36:22.800 --> 01:36:31.400] I think a lot of people feel like they are going back to what we were talking about earlier, they're kind of victims of the world of reality in different ways.
[01:36:31.640 --> 01:36:44.760] And by learning how to overcome the intensity of the reaction to the cold and to be able to sit with it, if they can do that in the cold, then they can do it in other areas of life as well.
[01:36:44.760 --> 01:36:47.480] And so, I think there's probably a combination of those two.
[01:36:47.800 --> 01:36:53.400] The growing rise of coffee shops and cafe culture.
[01:36:53.400 --> 01:36:58.120] What does our caffeine consumption say about the state of our nervous system?
[01:36:58.280 --> 01:37:14.840] Yeah, I love the taste of coffee myself, and I've so I have nothing against coffee, but I will say that when there's caffeine in our system, it creates, it releases hormones which actually make it more difficult to feel our interoceptive sensations.
[01:37:14.840 --> 01:37:21.960] There's a way in which the adrenaline and the cortisol and things they numb our bodies.
[01:37:21.960 --> 01:37:36.440] And so, my sense is that, as well as the kind of drive towards productivity and getting stuff done, and all the reasons people take coffee, I think that there's a way in which it also numbs us somewhat against what we're experiencing moment to moment.
[01:37:36.840 --> 01:37:44.840] And people will notice that, like, if maybe if they stop taking coffee, they might start to feel things again that maybe they've been not wanting to feel for a while.
[01:37:44.840 --> 01:37:45.800] Yeah, it's interesting.
[01:37:45.800 --> 01:37:54.760] I love a cup of coffee as much as the next person, but if I'm drinking too much, I just feel it all going up into my head.
[01:37:54.760 --> 01:38:01.960] Not the coffee, I feel I experience the world much more through my head and I'm less grounded.
[01:38:01.960 --> 01:38:02.680] Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[01:38:03.240 --> 01:38:13.080] And I think I could be wrong, maybe it's my childhood memory, but I don't think there was this kind of epidemic of coffee shops.
[01:38:13.080 --> 01:38:16.960] Now, to be clear, I love a coffee shop as much as the next person, right?
[01:38:17.280 --> 01:38:26.400] At the same time, I do think it says something about the state of society: you know, go, go, go, productivity, you know, no resting, pushing through.
[01:38:26.400 --> 01:38:41.280] And then what I also think many of us do is that we lean on epidemiological studies showing that coffee consumption is associated with lower risk of Alzheimer's and you know, a whole host of other things, lower risk of type 2 diabetes.
[01:38:41.680 --> 01:38:47.520] And for many people, that is a license to drink more than actually is good for us and our nervous system.
[01:38:47.520 --> 01:39:03.680] So whilst I acknowledge those studies, and I don't inherently think there's anything wrong with caffeine in balance with the rest of your lifestyle and your nervous system, I do think for many people, they've got fried nervous systems.
[01:39:03.680 --> 01:39:05.760] They're not resting and switching off enough.
[01:39:05.760 --> 01:39:08.880] They've accumulated a ton of emotional debts, right?
[01:39:08.880 --> 01:39:11.120] They don't feel their emotions.
[01:39:11.120 --> 01:39:15.120] And they're using caffeine to allow them to keep going.
[01:39:15.120 --> 01:39:16.160] Yeah, it's that.
[01:39:16.160 --> 01:39:24.800] And I would add something else to this as well, which is that people learn to feel safe in that stimulated state.
[01:39:24.800 --> 01:39:25.200] Yeah.
[01:39:25.200 --> 01:39:31.280] And that actually starting to rest and downshift feels unsafe in their system.
[01:39:31.280 --> 01:39:37.200] And often, when they begin to, it will start to bring up some of those, again, like things that don't feel good.
[01:39:37.200 --> 01:39:43.360] Or, um, and then they will find another way to kind of stay stimulated to avoid actually deeply resting.
[01:39:43.360 --> 01:39:43.840] Yeah.
[01:39:43.840 --> 01:39:47.360] I mean, I'm experiencing a version of that at the moment, right?
[01:39:47.360 --> 01:39:55.920] I'm on the back of a, you know, a busy and outward-focusing six to eight months with book launch and national tour.
[01:39:55.920 --> 01:39:56.960] It's all been great, right?
[01:39:56.960 --> 01:40:01.320] I want to experience life and see how I respond in different scenarios.
[01:40:01.480 --> 01:40:09.560] At the same time, I would say one of my crutches when I've got a lot on tends to be coffee.
[01:40:09.800 --> 01:40:24.680] If I'm being completely honest with myself, I know that my intake has just crept up a little bit over the last few months in a way that's not fully in balance with my nervous system, or nor is it in balance with the person I want to be.
[01:40:25.240 --> 01:40:27.640] And it's funny when you said that.
[01:40:27.800 --> 01:40:32.360] I think sometimes I can totally recognize that where you have it.
[01:40:32.360 --> 01:40:34.200] And then you feel a bit more stimulated.
[01:40:34.200 --> 01:40:37.240] So you're like, oh, this is my safe space because it's where I've been for the last few months.
[01:40:37.240 --> 01:40:37.960] Yeah, totally.
[01:40:37.960 --> 01:40:45.000] And it's almost leaning into that discomfort of going, no, well, yeah, you might feel a bit fatigued, but that's okay.
[01:40:45.000 --> 01:40:48.280] You don't necessarily need to caffeinate your fatigue every time.
[01:40:48.280 --> 01:40:51.160] It's okay to experience tiredness, right?
[01:40:51.160 --> 01:40:54.040] And not be in that stimulated state, which I don't know.
[01:40:54.040 --> 01:40:55.320] I find it quite interesting.
[01:40:55.320 --> 01:40:55.640] Yeah.
[01:40:55.640 --> 01:40:57.560] No, I think it's fascinating.
[01:40:57.560 --> 01:41:04.760] And the key thing that I want to kind of maybe for listeners to take away is it's great to be in those states.
[01:41:04.760 --> 01:41:07.880] I mean, you've just done like a UK tour, you've been on stage.
[01:41:07.880 --> 01:41:17.080] Like that is kind of the peak of, I'd say, like a healthy, sympathetic state where you need to be activated to be on stage and to give a performance.
[01:41:17.080 --> 01:41:23.400] But what is key is, so we haven't really talked about this, but I think about capacity and resilience.
[01:41:23.400 --> 01:41:29.720] Capacity is how grounded can you stay even when there's like intensity moving through your system.
[01:41:29.720 --> 01:41:32.600] And being on stage and doing a live show is a good example.
[01:41:32.600 --> 01:41:37.240] But then resilience is how efficiently, how effectively can you downshift?
[01:41:37.240 --> 01:41:42.440] And that's the skill that I think most people are missing and kind of need to actively train.
[01:41:42.440 --> 01:41:49.120] And so I'm a big fan of NSDR, which Shuberman has popularized, non-sleep, deep rest, yoga nidra.
[01:41:49.520 --> 01:41:54.240] There's many different ways of doing it, but learning how to go from that activated state.
[01:41:54.240 --> 01:42:00.480] And it's almost like the more activated you are, you need to be equally deeply resting.
[01:42:00.480 --> 01:42:09.760] So if you've been go, go, go for kind of like two or three months, you'll need to have a period of time where you're like deeply resting and recovering for almost an equal period of time.
[01:42:09.760 --> 01:42:12.400] Because we're like cyclical beings.
[01:42:12.400 --> 01:42:16.720] And it's great to be able to kind of show up with that intensity.
[01:42:16.720 --> 01:42:20.960] But if you don't also rest with that same intensity, it will become burnout over time.
[01:42:21.600 --> 01:42:26.560] I just, an image pops into my mind of the Olympic athlete who was on the horse.
[01:42:26.560 --> 01:42:32.800] And before he went to perform and won a gold medal, he was literally asleep, like minutes before he was about to perform.
[01:42:32.800 --> 01:42:43.680] And we think about like athletes know that recovery is just like crucial to their performance, but we don't really think about it as like cognitive athletes or podcast hosts.
[01:42:43.680 --> 01:42:48.720] Like we need to prioritize recovery as much as we're prioritizing performance.
[01:42:48.720 --> 01:42:49.760] Yeah, it's so interesting.
[01:42:49.760 --> 01:42:56.400] Just to make it really practical for people though, who maybe don't have as much autonomy with their life or their job, right?
[01:42:56.720 --> 01:42:59.280] This is what Sundays used to be for people.
[01:42:59.280 --> 01:42:59.920] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:42:59.920 --> 01:43:00.240] Right?
[01:43:00.240 --> 01:43:00.640] Yeah.
[01:43:00.640 --> 01:43:04.000] Sundays before all the shops were open, before internet shopping.
[01:43:04.320 --> 01:43:05.200] Social media.
[01:43:05.200 --> 01:43:05.520] Yeah.
[01:43:05.520 --> 01:43:10.480] You know, Sundays, I remember, I'm sure it was saying for you growing up as a kid, you know, Sundays, nothing much happens.
[01:43:10.480 --> 01:43:12.160] It was formerly one on the television.
[01:43:12.240 --> 01:43:15.520] It was like, it might be a football match of the day special.
[01:43:15.520 --> 01:43:17.200] Like, go for a walk in the park.
[01:43:17.200 --> 01:43:18.480] Supermarkets were shut.
[01:43:18.480 --> 01:43:18.960] Yeah.
[01:43:18.960 --> 01:43:20.160] Like, you couldn't do so.
[01:43:20.240 --> 01:43:26.560] There was enforced family time and chill out time into that seven-day cycle.
[01:43:26.560 --> 01:43:33.800] I think that's one of the most toxic things about the modern world is how those natural rest periods have just been obliterated.
[01:43:34.120 --> 01:43:47.480] I mean coming back to societal trends, I think that the ability to set boundaries is now such an essential skill because you need to now like actively design that into your life.
[01:43:47.480 --> 01:43:57.240] Because if you're just passive and you don't have some degree of intentionality, you will just be in this perpetual like go, go, go activated state because there's always going to be more stimulation coming towards you.
[01:43:57.240 --> 01:44:03.800] You really have to kind of protect your spaces, your time on an hourly level, daily level, weekly, monthly level.
[01:44:04.680 --> 01:44:07.160] It's a practice on all scales of time, I think.
[01:44:07.160 --> 01:44:07.720] Yeah.
[01:44:08.040 --> 01:44:09.480] Johnny, I love talking to you.
[01:44:09.800 --> 01:44:13.320] I really think what you're doing is incredible.
[01:44:13.320 --> 01:44:19.000] I think you've got a very unique take on the nervous system and how we can start to tackle it.
[01:44:19.560 --> 01:44:21.640] You've got two things, don't you, out there for people.
[01:44:21.640 --> 01:44:24.680] You've got the nervous system mastery course, that five-week course.
[01:44:25.320 --> 01:44:29.160] And you've got the NSQ, the nervous system quotients, right?
[01:44:29.400 --> 01:44:34.440] Can you just talk us through what those things are and how people who want to learn more from you can access them?
[01:44:34.440 --> 01:44:35.160] Yeah, totally.
[01:44:35.160 --> 01:44:46.120] So the NSQ was basically my attempt to design a self-assessment that gives people a sense of like benchmarks of where their nervous system is at in these kind of four categories that we've been talking about.
[01:44:46.200 --> 01:44:47.400] So like a score for your nervous system.
[01:44:47.480 --> 01:44:48.280] Yeah, you literally get a score.
[01:44:48.280 --> 01:44:50.600] You get a score out of 100 in these different areas.
[01:44:50.600 --> 01:44:53.080] And some are green, some might be orange.
[01:44:53.080 --> 01:44:59.880] And then we've designed it so that you'll get kind of practices designed to help improve the lowest areas through kind of email.
[01:44:59.880 --> 01:45:01.240] And it's all totally free as well.
[01:45:01.240 --> 01:45:03.080] So, how can people do that if they want to do it?
[01:45:03.080 --> 01:45:07.080] So, if they go to the website, it's nsmastery.com.
[01:45:07.080 --> 01:45:08.760] So, NS standing for nervous system.
[01:45:08.760 --> 01:45:09.000] Exactly.
[01:45:09.080 --> 01:45:10.760] Okay, nsmastery.com.
[01:45:10.760 --> 01:45:14.200] And in the top right, I think is the self-assessment button.
[01:45:14.200 --> 01:45:19.040] And then, if people are interested, there's more information about the five-week cohort of nervous system mastery.
[01:45:19.120 --> 01:45:27.840] That's when we go into all of the stuff we've been talking about: interception, self-regulation, emotional fluidity, in a kind of community-based approach.
[01:45:27.840 --> 01:45:32.640] So, there's live cohorts, live sessions, guest speakers as well.
[01:45:32.640 --> 01:45:45.040] And yeah, it's my attempt to really distill all of the practices we've been talking about in a kind of actionable, kind of condensed way that is also compatible with people's busy life.
[01:45:45.040 --> 01:45:51.520] So, we have like founders, CEOs, parents, you know, all kinds of people from all over the world take it.
[01:45:51.520 --> 01:45:54.320] I mean, who doesn't want a better nervous system, right?
[01:45:54.320 --> 01:45:55.760] A more balanced nervous system?
[01:45:55.920 --> 01:45:57.520] I'm biased, but I would agree.
[01:45:57.520 --> 01:46:03.120] Yeah, it's kind of a universal skill, I think, most of us would like to master at some point.
[01:46:03.120 --> 01:46:14.400] I, you know, if you really think about life and the nervous system, you know, it really is the master control switch of how we view the world, how we experience the world, isn't it?
[01:46:14.400 --> 01:46:14.880] Yeah, yeah.
[01:46:15.040 --> 01:46:25.360] And I guess not enough people are paying attention to what their nervous system is doing, so they feel in that reactive mode all the time, thinking that that's the only way to exist.
[01:46:25.360 --> 01:46:28.320] Yeah, and I mean, we just weren't taught these things growing up.
[01:46:28.320 --> 01:46:32.880] Like, I wasn't, you know, I only found out about it in the last like 10 years or so.
[01:46:32.880 --> 01:46:37.600] But I mean, imagine if these practices were in schools or taught by parents or taught by young people.
[01:46:37.600 --> 01:46:40.080] There'd be less like unlearning that has to happen.
[01:46:41.040 --> 01:46:43.200] Yeah, well, I think what you're doing is incredible.
[01:46:44.800 --> 01:46:58.000] You know, for someone who has been listening to this conversation, Johnny, and they're like, okay, I've not really paid much attention to my nervous system, but I'm definitely someone who's stuck in my head.
[01:46:58.000 --> 01:47:02.840] And when I first heard Johnny say, Where am I feeling that in my body?
[01:47:02.840 --> 01:47:05.000] I didn't have a clue what he was talking about, right?
[01:46:59.840 --> 01:47:07.080] Hopefully, they understand it now.
[01:47:07.080 --> 01:47:17.160] You've mentioned a variety of different practices, but for that person who's never felt what it's like to be in their body and they want to start, what would you say to them?
[01:47:18.680 --> 01:47:22.120] Yeah, I would say just start super simple.
[01:47:22.920 --> 01:47:36.680] Kind of first thing in the morning before you check your phone, kind of sometime between waking up and leaving the house, just set a timer for five minutes and do what I call an interceptive weather report.
[01:47:36.680 --> 01:47:40.760] So, just like an internal check-in of like, how is my mind?
[01:47:40.920 --> 01:47:49.400] Busy thoughts, like stories about things, how is my awareness, how is my posture, do I feel tired?
[01:47:49.400 --> 01:47:51.480] Do I feel energized?
[01:47:51.480 --> 01:47:53.560] And then, like, what is the kind of what is the mood?
[01:47:53.560 --> 01:47:55.480] Is there like an emotional tone?
[01:47:55.480 --> 01:47:57.720] Am I noticing any sensations?
[01:47:58.040 --> 01:48:04.200] And even just that kind of brief check-in on a daily basis will compound over time.
[01:48:04.200 --> 01:48:14.280] And you will start to gradually be more aware of what is happening internally when you're going about your day, maybe when you're stressed out, maybe if challenging things arise.
[01:48:14.280 --> 01:48:19.880] And it really just is a practice that gets way, way, way easier over time.
[01:48:20.520 --> 01:48:29.400] What's interesting for me is that you don't actually have to do anything with the things that you notice, you're just noticing.
[01:48:29.400 --> 01:48:29.800] Exactly.
[01:48:29.800 --> 01:48:30.200] Yeah.
[01:48:30.200 --> 01:48:39.480] And I think that's quite a key point for people to really understand.
[01:48:39.480 --> 01:48:47.440] It's okay if you're feeling tight or you're feeling sad, but what you're asking people is to train the awareness that that's what's going on.
[01:48:44.840 --> 01:48:48.480] Exactly, exactly.
[01:48:48.800 --> 01:48:56.560] And this is, we haven't talked about this distinction, but there's this idea of self-unfoldment versus self-improvement.
[01:48:56.560 --> 01:49:03.360] And self-improvement often comes from this premise of there is something in me that is broken or that needs fixing.
[01:49:03.360 --> 01:49:06.560] Whereas self-unfoldment is like the impale.
[01:49:06.560 --> 01:49:10.240] It's just like allowing whatever is coming up to be there.
[01:49:10.240 --> 01:49:22.080] And I really think like having this frame of self-unfoldment is so, so helpful for people because, you know, things like this check-in, it's just welcoming and allowing whatever is arising.
[01:49:22.080 --> 01:49:26.560] Maybe you're tired, maybe you are angry at something, maybe you're frustrated, maybe the sadness.
[01:49:26.560 --> 01:49:27.680] And that's all great.
[01:49:27.680 --> 01:49:28.960] That's all welcome.
[01:49:29.200 --> 01:49:42.560] But the more that you can tune in and listen to the feedback and the data of your body, the more in tune you can be and the more regulated and intentional you can kind of show up for what's important to you.
[01:49:42.560 --> 01:49:45.840] Helping us all experience the full breadth of human emotions.
[01:49:45.840 --> 01:49:46.320] Exactly.
[01:49:46.320 --> 01:49:48.560] Johnny Miller, thank you so much for coming on the show.
[01:49:48.560 --> 01:49:49.280] Thank you so much.
[01:49:49.280 --> 01:49:51.760] This has been just such a pleasure.
[01:49:55.280 --> 01:49:57.920] Really hope you enjoyed that conversation.
[01:49:57.920 --> 01:50:03.680] Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life.
[01:50:03.680 --> 01:50:08.640] And also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else.
[01:50:08.640 --> 01:50:16.400] Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information.
[01:50:16.400 --> 01:50:19.760] Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday 5.
[01:50:19.760 --> 01:50:26.880] It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness.
[01:50:26.880 --> 01:50:41.000] In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I've been consuming and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect.
[01:50:41.000 --> 01:50:51.640] And I have to say in a world of endless emails it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving.
[01:50:51.640 --> 01:51:02.360] So if that sounds like something you would like to receive each and every Friday, you can sign up for free at drchatgy.com forward slash friday5.
[01:51:02.360 --> 01:51:18.680] Now if you are new to my podcast you may be interested to know that I have written five books that have been bestsellers all over the world covering all kinds of different topics happiness, food, stress, sleep, behavior change and movement, weight loss and so much more.
[01:51:18.680 --> 01:51:20.600] So please do take a moment to check them out.
[01:51:20.600 --> 01:51:27.800] They are all available as paperbacks, ebooks and as audio books which I am narrating.
[01:51:27.800 --> 01:51:36.840] If you enjoyed today's episode, it is always appreciated if you can take a moment to share the podcast with your friends and family or leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
[01:51:36.840 --> 01:51:38.840] Thank you so much for listening.
[01:51:38.840 --> 01:51:40.360] Have a wonderful week.
[01:51:40.360 --> 01:51:51.320] And please note that if you want to listen to this show without any adverts at all, that option is now available for a small monthly fee on Apple and on Android.
[01:51:51.320 --> 01:51:56.360] All you have to do is click the link in the episode notes in your podcast app.
[01:51:56.680 --> 01:52:01.400] And always remember, you are the architect of your own health.
[01:52:01.400 --> 01:52:08.360] Making lifestyle change is always worth it because when you feel better, you live more.

Prompt 6: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 7: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 8: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
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Full Transcript

[00:00:01.040 --> 00:00:07.040] The phrase that I really like is secure attachment with life, secure attachment with reality.
[00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:21.440] This idea of coming back to feeling fundamentally at home in our bodies, creating the conditions of safety so that all parts of our psyche learn to feel inherently safe in the world.
[00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:23.200] Hey guys, how are you doing?
[00:00:23.200 --> 00:00:25.360] Hope you're having a good week so far.
[00:00:25.360 --> 00:00:26.240] My name is Dr.
[00:00:26.240 --> 00:00:32.480] Romgan Chatterjee, and this is my podcast: Feel Better, Live More.
[00:00:34.080 --> 00:00:46.000] Why is it these days that so many people are feeling stressed, anxious, close to burnout, and have exaggerated responses to simple everyday situations?
[00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:59.200] Well, this week's guest thinks this is a natural consequence of the fact that many of us are walking around each day with overloaded and dysregulated nervous systems.
[00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:19.520] Johnny Miller is the founder of Nervous System Mastery, a five-week boot camp where he has taught well over a thousand students, including CEOs, high performers, and busy parents, how to cultivate calm, rewire reactivity, and restore aliveness.
[00:01:19.520 --> 00:01:30.160] His work combines cutting-edge neuroscience with practical body-based approaches that help people move from chronic reactivity to intentional living.
[00:01:30.160 --> 00:01:36.400] And you can see all details at the course homepage nsmastery.com.
[00:01:36.720 --> 00:01:50.720] After experiencing profound grief following the death of his fiancé, Sophie, Johnny embarks on a journey to understand how our nervous systems shape every aspect of our lived experience.
[00:01:50.720 --> 00:02:01.000] And in this conversation, we discuss why anxiety isn't actually an emotion, but a protective strategy used by the nervous system to shield us.
[00:02:01.320 --> 00:02:10.120] The three core skills of nervous system mastery, interoception, self-regulation, and emotional fluidity.
[00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:21.080] How emotions themselves typically last just 10 to 20 seconds, but our resistance to feeling them creates what Johnny calls emotional debt.
[00:02:21.080 --> 00:02:28.200] Why working with the body can be more effective than trying to think our way out of stress?
[00:02:28.200 --> 00:02:39.480] And how practices like cold exposure can help train us to stop resisting discomfort and allow challenging sensations to move through us naturally.
[00:02:39.480 --> 00:02:52.600] Johnny's reflections on grief are particularly moving, and he shares how Sophie's death taught him that emotions, even the most painful ones, carry their own kinds of wisdom.
[00:02:52.600 --> 00:02:58.840] At its heart, this conversation is about remembering what the body already knows.
[00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:14.040] Johnny shows us that beneath our stress and reactivity lies a deep intelligence, and that when we learn to trust it, we can move through life with more presence, resilience, and peace.
[00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:25.000] As you well know, we don't see the world as it is, we see the world as we are.
[00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:40.120] What are some signs, in your view, that might indicate our nervous systems are a little bit out of whack, which may colour the way we view the world and change the way we experience life?
[00:03:40.760 --> 00:03:43.000] Yeah, I mean, that's beautifully said.
[00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:47.760] I view the nervous system as literally a lens through which we experience reality.
[00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:57.200] And I think our state of our nervous system and the degree to which we're in a mode of reactivity completely dictates our experience of life.
[00:03:57.200 --> 00:04:02.960] So some signs would include forms of reactivity.
[00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:16.720] So if your knee-jerk anger is obviously a clear one, or if there's a sense of fatigue or lethargy or sleep is obviously a huge one as well, that's a big symptom of nervous system dysregulation.
[00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:18.240] What, that we can't sleep?
[00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:25.280] That we wake up, struggle to fall asleep, struggle to kind of downshift at the end of the day without kind of using substances.
[00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:31.040] And also, I think challenge in relationship is a huge one that I see in my students.
[00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:39.440] So whether it's kind of conflict in different areas or challenges with creating a sense of connection with people that are close to you, there's a lot.
[00:04:39.520 --> 00:04:42.240] Early symptoms of burnout is another one as well.
[00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:46.320] So I think about it in terms of like feather brick dump truck.
[00:04:46.320 --> 00:04:53.120] And in the beginning, maybe your nervous system is telling you, like, almost like tickling you with a feather of like, maybe you're going a little bit too hard.
[00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:55.520] Maybe it's time to take a bit of a break.
[00:04:55.520 --> 00:05:04.400] And then there's maybe a brick, which could be, you know, you wake up feeling exhausted, maybe you've got brain fog, maybe you can't really perform at work.
[00:05:04.400 --> 00:05:12.640] And then for some people, it takes a dump truck, which might be maybe it's like an intense breakup or it's like a health crisis.
[00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:17.680] And it's often, unfortunately, the dump truck which gets people to really tune in.
[00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:20.880] But it's really just the body giving you feedback.
[00:05:20.880 --> 00:05:21.520] Yeah.
[00:05:21.840 --> 00:05:22.560] It's interesting.
[00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:31.080] Those symptoms you mentioned there, some of them, you know, being overly reactive, relationship struggles, maybe anxiety would be in there for many people.
[00:05:29.760 --> 00:05:34.520] These are very, very common these days.
[00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:39.320] And it's kind of interesting as I sort of think about your work.
[00:05:39.640 --> 00:05:50.200] I think about this idea that I often say on the show that when people are not eating well in a nourishing way and they've never done it before, they don't know how good they can feel.
[00:05:50.520 --> 00:05:51.080] Yeah.
[00:05:51.080 --> 00:05:51.720] Right?
[00:05:51.720 --> 00:06:05.240] So until they actually go through the process of having just whole unprocessed foods for two weeks, they have no idea just how much their processed food diet is affecting them in terms of energy, vitality, and how they experience the world.
[00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:09.000] And I kind of see a similar thing with the nervous system, right?
[00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:09.480] Totally.
[00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:16.920] Many people are walking around with these kind of tight and wound up nervous systems that they think is normal.
[00:06:17.400 --> 00:06:22.520] Yet they don't realize that there is another way to experience the world out there, isn't there?
[00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:23.560] Yeah, beautiful.
[00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:25.880] I mean, anxiety, I think, is a really good example.
[00:06:25.880 --> 00:06:31.560] And it actually, the word anxiety comes from the Latin ango, which literally means to constrict.
[00:06:31.880 --> 00:06:42.360] And a lot of people try and manage anxiety or like conquer anxiety, but it's really just our reaction to a kind of an underlying emotion.
[00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:51.320] And so it can be really helpful to kind of learn to notice the constriction in the body and kind of like allow it to open up.
[00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:54.440] And, you know, there's a number of different practices for that.
[00:06:54.440 --> 00:06:55.000] Yeah.
[00:06:55.320 --> 00:06:56.280] That's interesting.
[00:06:56.280 --> 00:06:58.760] Anxiety is a reaction to an underlying emotion.
[00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:03.560] I imagine that a lot of people think that anxiety is an emotion.
[00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:04.120] Totally.
[00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:04.360] Right.
[00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:06.760] But you're sort of framing it slightly differently.
[00:07:06.760 --> 00:07:13.960] Yeah, it's kind of like a defensive strategy that our nervous system has to constrict against.
[00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:16.400] I think about almost like a hose pipe.
[00:07:14.840 --> 00:07:22.240] Like you can turn on the tap really strongly, and you know, the water will kind of go through.
[00:07:22.400 --> 00:07:28.160] And if your system is kind of unclenched and doesn't have tension, it'll kind of flow cleanly.
[00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:35.200] But if you're resisting some aspect of your experience, could be anger, could be sadness, could be frustration, whatever it is.
[00:07:35.200 --> 00:07:45.680] And a really obvious example is like if someone is, you know, before an important conversation, maybe they feel scared and afraid and there's a sense of anxiety, but that could also be excitement.
[00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:54.800] And it can just, if that system opens and they're kind of connected to the breath, then that it's really just energy, like energy in motion that's kind of moving through.
[00:07:54.800 --> 00:08:00.080] Is there a difference between anxiety and excitement, or is it just the way that we're framing that tension?
[00:08:00.080 --> 00:08:01.520] It's the tension in the body, I think.
[00:08:01.520 --> 00:08:02.080] Yeah.
[00:08:02.080 --> 00:08:02.960] Same tension.
[00:08:03.840 --> 00:08:04.320] Yeah.
[00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:07.840] That's a really interesting concept because we know that anxiety is on the rise.
[00:08:07.840 --> 00:08:11.040] So many people are struggling with anxiety.
[00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:23.440] And you're saying trying to manage it can make it worse, which in many ways is counterintuitive for people, but I think that's because people don't know what it feels like these days to experience their body.
[00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:27.920] So I imagine some people will hear you talking and go, yeah, but what are you talking about?
[00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:30.160] Constricting in my body.
[00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:31.360] What the hell does that mean?
[00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:42.160] And so do you find that in the modern world, many people are stuck in their heads and don't even know what's going on beneath the neck?
[00:08:42.160 --> 00:08:43.200] Yeah, totally.
[00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:53.040] So I think about in the kind of journey of nervous system mastery, of kind of working with your nervous system, there's three kind of core skills that I think about.
[00:08:53.040 --> 00:09:00.760] And the first is what you exactly what you spoke to, which is kind of regaining sensitivity of our internal experience.
[00:09:00.760 --> 00:09:03.480] So it's called interoception is the kind of fancy name.
[00:08:59.920 --> 00:09:04.920] I know you've written about it in your book.
[00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:12.040] And it's really relearning to listen to the feedback from our body that's coming all of the time.
[00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:14.920] The second skill is self-regulation.
[00:09:14.920 --> 00:09:18.760] And this is what a lot of people are probably familiar with when it comes to anxiety.
[00:09:18.760 --> 00:09:23.720] This is there's kind of three ways that I think about self-regulating.
[00:09:23.720 --> 00:09:29.160] There's top-down approaches, which might be like cognitive reframes, might be positive affirmations.
[00:09:29.160 --> 00:09:31.080] Mindfulness is a good example.
[00:09:31.640 --> 00:09:46.120] The second is bottom-up, which is, this is my favorite, honestly, it's like working with the or leveraging these levers in our physiology, things like the breath is a really common one, to literally shift our state and create that sense of safety.
[00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:52.600] And from there, the third kind of pillar or category is emotional fluidity.
[00:09:52.600 --> 00:10:01.000] And that is, it's the one that probably takes the longest to learn, but it's learning to welcome the full spectrum of human experience.
[00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:06.200] And beneath anxiety, for a lot of people, it's either like frustration or anger or sometimes sadness.
[00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:15.000] And once there's that sense of kind of safety and calmness that's created from the self-regulation, then the emotion can kind of come through.
[00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:22.200] And it's actually, it's the resistance to feeling the emotion that is the bit that sucks, basically.
[00:10:22.520 --> 00:10:27.480] The emotions themselves don't last for more than 10 to 20 seconds.
[00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:32.800] It's the way that we constrict and tense against them and try to resist feeling them.
[00:10:32.800 --> 00:10:34.920] That is the bit that causes the challenge.
[00:10:34.920 --> 00:10:35.800] That's really interesting.
[00:10:35.800 --> 00:10:41.720] The emotions themselves don't last beyond 10 to 20 seconds, I think.
[00:10:42.040 --> 00:10:42.840] Which is wild, right?
[00:10:42.840 --> 00:10:45.760] Because we don't think about that normally.
[00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:52.160] Yeah, and I know you run this incredible five-week course, Nervous System Mastery, where you teach people about all these things.
[00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:57.600] And I think I've read some where you say that one of the goals of that course is to reduce the half-life.
[00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:02.400] of reactivity, which that was really interesting, especially in the context of what you just said.
[00:11:02.400 --> 00:11:15.040] And in some of the stuff I've read from you, you say, like a beginner, for example, might feel angry for, I don't know, two days, and an expert might feel angry for two seconds.
[00:11:15.040 --> 00:11:15.280] Right.
[00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:15.920] Right.
[00:11:16.160 --> 00:11:21.040] But what was interesting for me is that the expert wasn't not feeling angry.
[00:11:21.040 --> 00:11:21.680] Completely.
[00:11:21.680 --> 00:11:22.080] Right.
[00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:25.840] You were just reducing how long you felt that anger for.
[00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:27.840] So I want to definitely explore that.
[00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:32.560] But I wonder if we should think about like an everyday example that people can relate to.
[00:11:32.560 --> 00:11:32.800] Right.
[00:11:32.800 --> 00:11:42.080] Because at the start, some of those signs that might indicate our nervous system is a little bit out of balance are, let's say, relationship conflict.
[00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:42.560] Right.
[00:11:42.560 --> 00:11:52.480] So many people know that feeling, let's say, let's say they have a partner and their partner says something, you know, arguably trivial.
[00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:52.800] Okay.
[00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:56.000] They say something.
[00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:06.320] And the other partner, let's say the person listening, gets incredibly triggered by that comment and starts to create stories about what that comment actually means.
[00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:10.240] They feel angry and not listen to, whatever it might be.
[00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:10.640] Okay.
[00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:16.160] So is that a useful example to try and unpick, you know, what's actually going on there?
[00:12:16.160 --> 00:12:20.160] So like through your lens, I think it would be quite helpful to help people understand that.
[00:12:20.160 --> 00:12:20.560] No, totally.
[00:12:20.560 --> 00:12:21.920] I mean, that's a great example.
[00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:26.160] There's basically two modes of reactivity that all humans have.
[00:12:26.160 --> 00:12:38.200] One mode, the technical term, is hyper-arousal, like aggression, intensity, anger, and then hypo-arousal is more like collapsing, shutting down, kind of guarding against.
[00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:40.120] And most people tend to lean one way or the other.
[00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:46.440] So, for example, I tend to kind of become more guarded, tend to be kind of more emotionally unavailable in conflict.
[00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:56.680] And the way that you know that you're in some kind of pattern or trigger is, as you say, you're kind of responding disproportionately to what has happened.
[00:12:56.680 --> 00:13:04.440] So, it's you know, it's very normal if someone, you know, if you were to like shout at me or insult me, it would be normal for me to like have a reaction to that.
[00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:13.480] But if you say something that's, you know, isn't designed to kind of offend me, then but I get reactive or I start to close down, then that's a sign that I'm in some kind of trigger.
[00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:20.360] And, you know, for me, it's kind of closing off, it's becoming kind of emotionally unavailable.
[00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:24.520] And, you know, what's funny is for a long time, I thought that I was just like a very calm person.
[00:13:24.520 --> 00:13:30.200] I thought that I was like very even-keeled, very like, didn't get reactive at all.
[00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:39.320] But actually, I was in so many situations, I was kind of subtly withdrawing a sense of connection out of like self-protection, basically.
[00:13:40.200 --> 00:13:58.360] And as soon as I was able to notice that that was what was happening for me, and my partner kind of the same as well for her, then I could prioritize coming back into what's known as the window of tolerance, which is a very important kind of concept in this world of nervous system practices.
[00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:18.160] And I know I'm in my window of tolerance when I feel grounded, I feel in myself, I feel a sense of I'm like here, I'm like, I'm not disassociated, I'm not checked out, I'm not trying to attack someone, and it's really, really hard to have any kind of productive conflict in relationship.
[00:14:18.160 --> 00:14:22.640] And I think all relationships have, you know, some degree of conflict, I think it's really healthy.
[00:14:22.640 --> 00:14:41.040] But if one or both of you isn't in that place of being in their bodies and kind of that has that sense of regulation and being in that window of tolerance, then it'll just be kind of back and forth of usually the pattern is like someone gets aggressive and someone gets defensive.
[00:14:41.040 --> 00:14:42.800] Yeah, we'll come back to relation in just a minute.
[00:14:43.040 --> 00:14:45.360] You said something that's really interesting for me.
[00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:46.960] And it's something I think about a lot.
[00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.640] This idea that you need to be in your body.
[00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:54.720] Now, I think some people are going to hear that and go, yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
[00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:57.200] You know, I know what it means to be in my body.
[00:14:57.520 --> 00:14:59.760] I know what it means when I'm not in my body.
[00:14:59.760 --> 00:15:07.600] But there'll also be maybe 50% of people listening, as a rough guess, who heard that phrase and thought, I don't know what Johnny's talking about.
[00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:11.440] What does it mean to be in my body?
[00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:20.480] So I'm guessing that people who come onto your five-week course, I imagine there's some people who come in who also don't know what that means.
[00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:22.640] So can you just help people understand that?
[00:15:22.640 --> 00:15:25.600] Yeah, I mean, I think it's not binary, right?
[00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:27.360] It's definitely on a spectrum.
[00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:37.200] So I think about it as almost like upgrading your sense of your internal landscape like a chef kind of learning to taste, right?
[00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:47.120] When someone goes into culinary school, they will learn to train their flavor palette to notice like increasing subtlety in the flavors that they're tasting.
[00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:50.320] And it's kind of the same with our sensations and with our emotions.
[00:15:50.640 --> 00:16:00.600] We have this like interoceptive palette that we can increasingly tune into and treat as real-time feedback coming from our body.
[00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:02.680] And this is known as interoception.
[00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:04.760] And it helps with decision-making.
[00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:07.880] It helps with knowing what state we're in.
[00:16:07.880 --> 00:16:10.200] Like maybe we need to take a bit of a break.
[00:16:10.520 --> 00:16:14.360] Maybe when you wake up in the morning, you kind of tune, how are you feeling?
[00:16:14.360 --> 00:16:19.160] And the three, the kind of practice that I teach around this, you know, it's very trainable.
[00:16:19.560 --> 00:16:24.840] I call it ape, which stands for awareness, posture, and emotion.
[00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:31.400] And awareness is, again, something that a lot of people don't think about, but your awareness in any moment can be kind of expansive.
[00:16:31.640 --> 00:16:35.160] You could be aware of like the space besides you, the space above you, below you.
[00:16:35.160 --> 00:16:43.320] Or usually when people get stressed or reactive, the awareness is almost like it's like looking, experiencing life through a straw that's like just in front of you and very narrow.
[00:16:43.640 --> 00:16:44.840] Posture is another one.
[00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:47.400] And then emotions and sensations.
[00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:56.200] Again, like right now, I can kind of like notice my butt on the seat, my feet on the floor, kind of feeling into my hands, feeling the back of my body.
[00:16:56.200 --> 00:17:03.480] And it's really just the kind of practice of tuning into the different facets of your experience.
[00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:04.040] Yeah.
[00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:06.280] It's interesting, isn't it?
[00:17:06.280 --> 00:17:08.680] Because you grew up in the UK, like me.
[00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:10.600] I know you've moved now to America.
[00:17:12.120 --> 00:17:13.800] But I imagine it's the same in America.
[00:17:13.800 --> 00:17:16.920] It's quite a head-based culture.
[00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:24.680] And I know you read my latest book in chapter one, which is one of my favorite chapters, which is all about trusting yourself and interception.
[00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:41.480] And I mention this story from a tribe where they were very confused that people in America thought with their heads because to them, they think with their abdomen, right?
[00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:42.840] Which I found so fascinating.
[00:17:42.840 --> 00:17:46.720] Just this idea that, well, we all experience the world differently, don't we?
[00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:51.680] And actually, just because we live in a head-based culture, it doesn't mean everyone does, right?
[00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:58.640] So, other cultures and many people within our cultures are used to being in their bodies, but many people aren't.
[00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:03.600] So, bringing it back to conflict in a relationship, right?
[00:18:03.600 --> 00:18:17.120] So, let's say, and of course, there's practice on these things, which you might have to do away from the event and learn so you can bring the new improved you back to those conflict situations.
[00:18:17.120 --> 00:18:22.560] But if we just sort of try and unpick it, okay, let's take a comment online, for example.
[00:18:22.560 --> 00:18:25.360] Like, people say, Oh, that comment is offensive.
[00:18:25.360 --> 00:18:27.120] Actually, technically, that's not true.
[00:18:27.120 --> 00:18:29.440] No comment can be offensive, right?
[00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:37.280] Because if the comment was intrinsically offensive, 100% of the people reading that comment would take offense to it.
[00:18:37.600 --> 00:18:39.360] So, it's not the comment, right?
[00:18:39.360 --> 00:18:48.240] There is a comment, and then the offense for whatever reason, body, brain, mind, whatever, is coming from us, right?
[00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:51.600] Something within us has been activated, so we then call it offensive.
[00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:59.360] But there is a space, isn't there, between the stimulus, the comment, and our response, us saying it's offensive, right?
[00:18:59.360 --> 00:19:02.160] So, can we sort of try and unpick that?
[00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:04.880] Let's say, I don't know, husband-wife relationship, okay?
[00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:08.960] The husband says something, the wife doesn't like it, okay?
[00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:10.320] So, what's going on, right?
[00:19:10.320 --> 00:19:13.200] And in terms of how can we bring our body into that?
[00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:14.800] Does that make sense as a kind of framing?
[00:19:14.800 --> 00:19:16.000] No, it's a great example.
[00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:22.240] And maybe another kind of frame to add to this is that our nervous system uses what's known as predictive processing.
[00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:29.280] So, it's essentially making predictions the entire time about our lived experience and about what is happening.
[00:19:29.280 --> 00:19:37.480] So, as you say, you can read a comment and you can form a prediction in a hundred different ways about what that means.
[00:19:38.040 --> 00:19:41.480] And those predictions will also be informed by your current state of being.
[00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:51.880] So if I'm in a kind of like triggered, reactive, stressed out, exhausted state, I'm going to read that comment differently than if I'm like well slept, you know, well hydrated, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:53.720] We see the world through the lens of our nervous system.
[00:19:54.520 --> 00:19:54.760] Exactly.
[00:19:54.760 --> 00:19:55.000] Exactly.
[00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:55.480] Exactly.
[00:19:55.640 --> 00:20:03.800] And so being aware of the state that you're in is actually really useful information for when you're interpreting, let's say, a comment or let's say a conflict.
[00:20:03.800 --> 00:20:12.760] And one of the practices, because I want to make this as practical as possible, that was pioneered by DiMasio, who is this really famous neuroscientist.
[00:20:12.760 --> 00:20:15.160] He talked about somatic markers.
[00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:25.160] And what that basically means is everyone has a different set of somatic markers, which are like the early warning signs that you're entering some kind of reactive state.
[00:20:25.800 --> 00:20:38.040] So in the example of a conflict between a married couple, let's say, maybe, you know, maybe for me, I start to notice there's like, oh, there's like some tension in my chest while we're talking.
[00:20:38.040 --> 00:20:45.320] Or maybe there's like a knot in my stomach and it feels like, oh, and there's this like, oh, that doesn't feel good.
[00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:56.520] And if you're aware of that, you can kind of like bring it up and present it and say, like, hey, I'm noticing that there's this tension in my chest.
[00:20:56.520 --> 00:21:00.520] When this has happened before, I've ended up like shouting at you.
[00:21:00.520 --> 00:21:07.400] And so I'm going to take like a few minutes to kind of step away, put my feet on the grass, get some fresh air, and then come back.
[00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:09.080] And I want to have this conversation.
[00:21:09.080 --> 00:21:14.440] I want to have, you know, this is really important, but I don't feel like I'm able to kind of be grounded in this state.
[00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:15.680] Yeah, I love that.
[00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:15.920] Right.
[00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:24.000] I think for me, there's a really key point there, which is nervous system mastery, as you call your course, right?
[00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:28.560] Which I think is a wonderful name, is going to take some time.
[00:21:28.560 --> 00:21:29.040] Totally.
[00:21:29.040 --> 00:21:29.440] Right?
[00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:29.920] Yeah.
[00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:41.440] If you are living in a reactive state and you get overly triggered to, let's say, the actions of your partner, you're not going to just hear this podcast and suddenly go, oh, yeah, great.
[00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:43.280] I'm going to be totally chilled now when it happens.
[00:21:43.600 --> 00:21:45.040] It's going to be a process of learning.
[00:21:45.040 --> 00:21:48.160] Like, if you were going to train to run a marathon, you'd have to practice.
[00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:48.560] Exactly.
[00:21:48.560 --> 00:22:12.720] So, what you just said there for me is something that I feel I probably brought into my marriage a few years ago as I've been on this journey to kind of regulate my own nervous system, which is, you know, if something, if there's any conflict or a disagreement and you're feeling for whatever reason, I'm a bit wound up, I'm still thinking about work, I'm overly stressed.
[00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:16.480] Even the awareness to sort of say, hey, listen, I know this is important.
[00:22:16.800 --> 00:22:20.720] I don't think now's the right time for us to get into this.
[00:22:21.360 --> 00:22:22.960] You know, I'm not ignoring it.
[00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:27.760] I know we need to talk about it, but maybe in half an hour or maybe I'm just going to go for a walk around the block.
[00:22:27.760 --> 00:22:28.800] Is that okay?
[00:22:29.760 --> 00:22:41.120] Even that can almost at source prevent this kind of downstream, like, I don't know, set of flames that can often start in relationships, right?
[00:22:41.120 --> 00:22:41.360] Exactly.
[00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:43.440] Is that what you're meaning by that?
[00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:45.200] Yeah, it's exactly that.
[00:22:45.200 --> 00:23:00.760] And I would say the kind of path of mastery or the learning journey is kind of, again, like the time that you spend in that kind of reactive state before you realize and you start to kind of take another path.
[00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:09.800] So, you know, for many people, it might be like, you know, you're angry for like two days or you're not talking to your partner or you're kind of in this dynamic.
[00:23:09.800 --> 00:23:23.800] And if that short, you know, if that shortens from like two days to even down to like two hours or 20 minutes, that is like a huge life upgrade because it allows you to move through the world with, and this is what I really care about.
[00:23:23.800 --> 00:23:25.720] You get to have more intentionality.
[00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:35.400] You get to act and kind of show up with more agency and showing up in a way that you want to show up and in a way that's like aligned with your values.
[00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:47.320] And when we're triggered, when we're in these reactive states, it's really hard to show up as the people that we want to be because we are in this kind of defensive, contracted, protective state.
[00:23:47.320 --> 00:23:48.520] And that's not a bad thing.
[00:23:48.520 --> 00:23:53.080] I think that's the other important thing to mention here is that it's not bad that this happens.
[00:23:53.080 --> 00:24:02.200] It's just a part of us, like a part of our psyche that is feeling unsafe and has learned this strategy to kind of protect ourselves, basically.
[00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:13.960] And you can kind of like have compassion for that part and walk away, do a breathing practice or humming or some grounding or whatever it is that works for you, maybe even just time outside.
[00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:17.240] And then come back and kind of start again.
[00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:18.680] And I don't know.
[00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:25.560] I mean, I think that it just saves so much unnecessary suffering to have this kind of pretty simple toolkit of skills.
[00:24:25.560 --> 00:24:38.440] Yeah, it's interesting that this is not just about having a better relationship or managing conflict better with your loved one, right?
[00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:41.480] Yes, it is about that, but it's so much more than that.
[00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:43.960] It's your experience of life.
[00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:48.000] It's, as you said, your ability to create an intentional life.
[00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:59.120] The way I often talk to people about this concept is this idea that we all have these internal values that represent the person we know ourselves to be.
[00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:03.760] And so the question then becomes: why are we sometimes behaving in a different way?
[00:25:03.760 --> 00:25:04.320] Exactly.
[00:25:04.800 --> 00:25:06.560] Why is there this internal conflict?
[00:25:06.560 --> 00:25:07.360] We know who we are.
[00:25:07.360 --> 00:25:14.000] We know we want to be kind and compassionate, yet we end up being reactive and stressed and making little digs at people, right?
[00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:14.640] Why?
[00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:27.760] And one of the reasons I think, which I think very much mirrors what you're saying, is that if you're chronically stressed, the way you view the world also changes, right?
[00:25:27.760 --> 00:25:31.280] Because when you're stressed, your body thinks it's under threat, right?
[00:25:31.280 --> 00:25:32.720] So the focus comes in.
[00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:33.840] You're looking for threat.
[00:25:33.840 --> 00:25:34.880] You're looking for problems.
[00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:37.200] You become hyper-vigilant, right?
[00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:42.640] You're not having this wide perspective, taking the other viewpoint, going, oh, I wonder what they were thinking there.
[00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:43.360] Do you know what I mean?
[00:25:43.360 --> 00:25:50.480] So it feels like it's like it's a vicious cycle from both sides.
[00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:52.720] We're living in a world where people feel chronically stressed.
[00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:57.040] They've got too much to do, which is changing the way they view the world.
[00:25:57.040 --> 00:26:04.880] It's also tightening up their nervous system, which means they're going to also be more reactive even when there's no threat there.
[00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:05.600] Exactly.
[00:26:05.600 --> 00:26:15.520] So I know we're going through practical exercises, but for someone who's perhaps having a light bulb moment during this conversation, can they change it?
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[00:30:13.480 --> 00:30:15.720] Yes, I mean, it's like doing reps at a gym, right?
[00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:21.080] It does take practice, but our nervous systems are neuroplastic, like along with our brain.
[00:30:21.080 --> 00:30:26.920] And so with practice, we can rewire these maladaptive responses to stress.
[00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:34.920] And the other thing that I want to bring this back to is this idea of emotions or avoided emotions and specifically emotional debt.
[00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:46.920] Because the more that we go through life and, you know, our nervous systems have this amazing capacity to buffer our emotional responses, which, you know, in many, many situations is super useful.
[00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:55.800] Like, let's say, I don't know, someone on the street just like shout to me, or I'm in a boardroom meeting and I get really angry.
[00:30:55.800 --> 00:31:00.280] It's actually good for me to be able to suppress that and kind of save it for later.
[00:31:00.280 --> 00:31:08.760] But if I do that, you know, repeatedly over many days or weeks or months, that builds up this emotional debt is what I call it.
[00:31:08.760 --> 00:31:12.600] And in the nervous system, this is a buildup of allostatic load.
[00:31:12.600 --> 00:31:21.320] And what this does, this kind of wear and tear, it drains energy from the system, which reduces our window of tolerance.
[00:31:21.320 --> 00:31:34.600] So I imagine listeners will be familiar that, like, you know, maybe they maybe they start a new job and in the beginning they've got like a ton of energy and they feel vibrant, but as time goes on, it feels like they get more and more reactive over time.
[00:31:34.600 --> 00:31:47.760] And that, I believe, is due to this buildup of allostatic load, which is in part contributed to by not allowing these, the emotional reflex arc to be completed.
[00:31:48.080 --> 00:32:00.640] And so, you know, many of us are walking around with like pockets of buffered emotional responses, which is contributing to this sense of exhaustion and fatigue and low capacity, basically.
[00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:08.320] Yeah, I really like that idea of emotional debt and this idea that we're not completing our emotional responses.
[00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:14.560] I think it's a really, really important point for us all to reflect on.
[00:32:14.560 --> 00:32:19.040] I know you like to give the example of the lion and the impala.
[00:32:19.040 --> 00:32:26.480] So maybe perhaps use that as a way of helping people understand what it means to complete that stressed response fully.
[00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:26.880] Yeah.
[00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:29.120] So people can search this on YouTube.
[00:32:29.120 --> 00:32:32.720] There's a great video of an impala that is chased by a lion.
[00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:34.480] It's literally like in its jaws.
[00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:36.320] It manages to escape.
[00:32:36.320 --> 00:32:45.200] And the next kind of five minutes, it finds its way to hide under a bush and it just lies down and its entire body just starts shaking.
[00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:50.560] It shakes and shakes and shakes for about two or three minutes and it just gets up and it's totally fine.
[00:32:50.560 --> 00:32:59.360] But that shaking is the kind of mammalian response that we all have of discharging that intensity and that stress that it just went through.
[00:32:59.360 --> 00:33:02.480] And humans have kind of forgotten how to do that.
[00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:11.040] There's definitely ways that you can, whether it's through breathwork or whether it's through either practice I call somatic surfing or even just creating a sense of safety.
[00:33:11.280 --> 00:33:17.680] Sometimes the body will kind of go into to complete that emotional response that it wasn't able to at the time.
[00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:20.560] Because often we will disassociate or we'll push it down.
[00:33:20.560 --> 00:33:22.240] And again, that's great.
[00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:35.880] But if we don't set aside time for some kind of processing to just allow the emotions to complete, then they get stored and they drain energy from the battery of your body, basically.
[00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:38.520] Yeah, that's a very vivid image.
[00:33:38.520 --> 00:33:51.320] An Impala almost being dead and having all that stress within them that they then process, the stress is gone, they go about living their life.
[00:33:51.880 --> 00:33:54.760] And I mean, it's really interesting.
[00:33:54.760 --> 00:33:59.640] Last July, my family and I, for our summer holidays, we went to Kenya.
[00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:02.440] And one of the things we did was go on safari.
[00:34:02.440 --> 00:34:04.360] I was quite scared before I went.
[00:34:04.360 --> 00:34:14.680] Like, I cognitively, I couldn't get my head around the facts that I was going to be in a car and I was actually hoping our car was closed, but it wasn't.
[00:34:14.680 --> 00:34:16.440] It was open, right?
[00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:17.480] Which was great.
[00:34:17.480 --> 00:34:19.880] But I was just like, hold on.
[00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:23.880] So there's going to be wild animals there.
[00:34:24.200 --> 00:34:26.680] And I was quite tense the first time.
[00:34:26.680 --> 00:34:31.160] For sure, I was holding on to the edge and trying not to look afraid to my kids.
[00:34:31.160 --> 00:34:32.040] But I was, right?
[00:34:32.040 --> 00:34:33.960] Because I'm not used to being in these environments.
[00:34:34.040 --> 00:34:35.640] So I softened up over days.
[00:34:35.640 --> 00:34:49.160] But I do remember once driving, we drove past two lions, and something really profound shifted in me because, you know, this is the wild, right?
[00:34:49.160 --> 00:34:54.120] There was blood all around their faces, their jaws, right?
[00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:55.640] And all my fear went.
[00:34:55.640 --> 00:35:01.240] I just thought, oh, I don't think, I mean, I don't think they're going to attack us anyway.
[00:35:01.240 --> 00:35:04.280] But I also thought, oh, they're full.
[00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:05.880] Like, that line is literally full.
[00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:08.360] They've, I think they've just killed a wilder beast.
[00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:10.280] Their stomach is distended and full.
[00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:14.440] They're probably in that relaxed, parasympathetic state now, just chilling.
[00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:17.280] They're not interested in coming after me.
[00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:18.240] Do you know what I mean?
[00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:20.320] It's sort of, it was very, it was very profound.
[00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:35.440] And then going back to your example about the wild and how mammals will complete that stress response, it makes you think of this movement-deprived Western world in which many of us live, right?
[00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:41.440] And we talk about the benefits of physical activity for our hormones or our physical health.
[00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:46.720] There's more talk these days about what physical activity does for our mental well-being.
[00:35:47.040 --> 00:36:11.760] But as you were talking, I thought, do you think that one of the reasons why movement, whether it be walking or running or going to the gym, makes us feel so good is because it completes or it helps us complete a stress response that may have been left partially uncompleted within our bodies?
[00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:16.160] Yeah, I think that's largely a big part of it.
[00:36:16.160 --> 00:36:18.160] And I used to go for a run.
[00:36:18.160 --> 00:36:24.000] Like that was my way of, if I'd had an intense day, I'd kind of go for a run around the block or in the park.
[00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:25.920] And I'd feel better when I got back.
[00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:35.200] And I think the other thing that you're speaking to is the, you know, the environment that we're in very much dictates our own experience to some degree as well.
[00:36:35.200 --> 00:36:40.640] So I think about the best metaphor I have for the nervous system is as a, it's like as an instrument.
[00:36:40.640 --> 00:36:45.520] Like we have these human instruments and sometimes we can get out of tune.
[00:36:45.520 --> 00:36:47.120] That's how I think of dysregulation.
[00:36:47.120 --> 00:36:53.200] But in certain environments, I mean, I felt this the other day on a like incredibly busy London underground tube.
[00:36:53.200 --> 00:36:59.360] Like we are kind of co-regulating with the other people and the environments that we're in.
[00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:09.480] And as mammals, we feel much more grounded, relaxed, expansive in something like, you know, I was at a Soho Park just before this podcast.
[00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:11.320] And there, I was like, oh, I feel so good.
[00:37:11.320 --> 00:37:13.160] And everyone can relate to that.
[00:37:13.160 --> 00:37:22.520] But I think that it's really helpful to think about how we can, to the degree that we can design our environments, they then will design us in return.
[00:37:22.520 --> 00:37:36.920] And so there's constantly this kind of like attuned relationship between, you know, between me and you right now, between the room that we're in, the plants, like our nervous system is constantly looking for these signals of like, am I safe?
[00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:38.520] Can I relax?
[00:37:38.520 --> 00:37:48.600] And so I think there's definitely an argument to be made of intentionally designing your environment for the state that is appropriate for that moment.
[00:37:48.600 --> 00:38:01.800] So another example is there's something called the cathedral effect, which is where if you have like a high ceiling, there have been studies that shown that's better for like creative thinking versus like a low ceiling is much better for like analytical kind of maybe data-driven tasks.
[00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:08.040] And so we're constantly being impacted by our environment.
[00:38:08.040 --> 00:38:08.680] Yeah.
[00:38:08.680 --> 00:38:10.600] So it's interesting.
[00:38:10.760 --> 00:38:14.760] We're in the middle of London at the moment in a studio recording this conversation.
[00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:15.320] Okay.
[00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:20.760] So many people do live in very urban settings.
[00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:21.160] Okay.
[00:38:21.160 --> 00:38:27.480] And of course some people cannot exert much control over their external environment.
[00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:36.920] So what are the kind of things that we can do in our homes, in our flats, in our apartments to try and negate the effects of the outside world?
[00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:41.400] Well, I'd say there's both internal things and there's external things.
[00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:45.600] So, your body is constantly getting signals from both your body and the environment.
[00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:59.760] So, for people who are in these kind of like busy, loud environments, obviously, you know, externally, you can wear noise-cancelling headphones, things like that, or just like reduce the intensity of stimulus if you're looking to kind of unwind at the end of the day, for example.
[00:39:00.160 --> 00:39:08.400] But I think more practical and more effective, honestly, are learning what I call bottom-up techniques or practices.
[00:39:08.800 --> 00:39:22.320] So, these would include things like humming is actually really effective, it increases nitric oxide by I think 15-fold, and it's a vasodilator, which helps with eye strain as well, and helps us kind of downshift into that parasympathetic state.
[00:39:22.560 --> 00:39:37.040] Other things would be long-hold stretches, exhale-emphasized breathing practices, so like 478 is a really common one, or just any breath where the exhale is twice as long as the inhale, it will have a kind of calming effect.
[00:39:37.520 --> 00:39:43.440] And another one that you can do without you know externally changing anything is a kind of playing with your awareness.
[00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:51.920] So, you can be aware of the space like behind you, feeling your feet on the ground, attuning to like the sounds around you.
[00:39:52.240 --> 00:40:09.040] And the more that your awareness is kind of expansive, I'm like doing a little bit right now, like you can kind of put your hands out, and then as you kind of move them behind you, you're kind of expanding your peripheral vision, and that has this kind of expansive effect and it creates a sense of spaciousness in the system.
[00:40:09.040 --> 00:40:13.440] Yeah, that whole visual piece is really interesting.
[00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:38.200] Um, I worked with this incredible movement coach called Helen Hall, and one of the things Helen has helped me with is understanding the importance of peripheral vision when, let's say, you're running, and she has shown me, and I've seen the data that when you are running or walking with narrow focus vision, right, which many of us would be doing.
[00:40:38.200 --> 00:40:42.360] And if you're in a narrow urban street, you probably are going to be doing that.
[00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:43.960] You move a certain way.
[00:40:44.600 --> 00:40:52.280] And if you then tune into expanding your vision, softening it, making it more peripheral, your whole movement pattern changes.
[00:40:52.280 --> 00:40:54.760] There's more fluidity, there's more flow.
[00:40:55.400 --> 00:40:57.960] It really helps the way you move.
[00:40:57.960 --> 00:41:03.320] And we know that your vision is, you know, it's super related to the state of your nervous system.
[00:41:03.320 --> 00:41:04.120] Totally.
[00:41:04.520 --> 00:41:09.160] So those practices actually, yeah, they're really helpful to think about.
[00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:11.480] I want to go into some of them in detail, right?
[00:41:11.480 --> 00:41:13.880] But you mentioned this bottom-up practices.
[00:41:13.880 --> 00:41:14.440] Okay.
[00:41:14.440 --> 00:41:17.080] And before you mentioned top-down.
[00:41:17.080 --> 00:41:17.400] Okay.
[00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:21.320] So I want to really kind of unpack it.
[00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:21.800] Okay.
[00:41:21.800 --> 00:41:30.280] So top-down, i.e., with your mind, from your brain downwards, you're cognitively reframing things, you're thinking about things differently.
[00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:40.040] Bottom-up is some sort of body-based practice like the breath, for example, that is naturally changing things in your nervous system.
[00:41:40.680 --> 00:41:41.560] How would you frame it?
[00:41:41.560 --> 00:41:54.280] Yeah, so the example you gave with the lion, seeing that the lion's belly was full was a great example of like a top-down reframe because you noticed that, oh, so now the lion is no longer a threat.
[00:41:54.280 --> 00:42:00.520] So you kind of changed a belief that you had that was making a prediction about the world about whether or not the lion is a threat.
[00:42:00.520 --> 00:42:04.280] So that was a great example of like a very effective top-down intervention.
[00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:11.640] There's many others in the kind of you know, CBT is another good example of like cognitive reframes.
[00:42:11.640 --> 00:42:23.760] But what I love about bottom-up, and there's some interesting science around this as well, in that we have, I believe it's something like four times more afferent neurons than efferent neurons.
[00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:29.200] And the afferent neurons are the ones that go from the body up to the up to the brain, up to the head.
[00:42:29.200 --> 00:42:33.440] And efferent go from the brain head down to the body.
[00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:41.280] So there's essentially like a kind of four-lane superhighway of information going up and like one lane of traffic going down.
[00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:53.440] And to me, that kind of indicates that the way that we make predictions is much more heavily influenced by what our body is experiencing than by the kind of thoughts and feelings and emotions that we're having.
[00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:54.640] Okay, love it.
[00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:57.600] So this is where I'm at with my thinking with this at the moment.
[00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:06.560] Compared to, let's say, five years ago, I feel my nervous system is in a completely different state.
[00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:12.000] Generally speaking, today, I feel pretty calm, contented most of the time.
[00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:13.520] I'm not really reactive.
[00:43:13.520 --> 00:43:18.960] Very little stresses me out compared to what used to happen.
[00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:25.760] Now, the internet, the modern world wants to know what was the one thing I did or one does.
[00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:27.760] And the truth is, there wasn't a one thing.
[00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:30.160] Okay, there were a variety of different things.
[00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:34.240] But one of the things I did a lot of was cognitive reframing.
[00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:48.720] Okay, and for people who listened to my show, they'll know that a conversation I had with the Auschwitz survivor, Edith Eager, had a huge impact on my life because she could cognitively reframe her experience whilst in a death camp.
[00:43:48.720 --> 00:44:06.280] Now, I found that the most inspiring thing because for months after that, whenever I got triggered or I felt reacted to something that was outside my control, and back then it was a lot, once my kids had gone to bed in the evening, I wasn't able to do it in the moment.
[00:44:06.600 --> 00:44:10.760] Once they'd gone to spend an evening, I would then think about those situations.
[00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:19.240] I go, okay, instead of blaming the external world for my internal emotions, I would own them and go, okay, what did that bring up in me?
[00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:19.960] Okay.
[00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:26.520] Oh, that reminded me of this from my childhood or what someone said to me when I was 14, whatever it might be.
[00:44:26.520 --> 00:44:41.960] And through that process, or that's at least one part of it, I feel my, the way I interacted with the world and, you know, day-to-day life experience completely changed.
[00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:45.240] So I'm always trying to be aware of my biases.
[00:44:45.240 --> 00:44:46.520] I think we've all got biases.
[00:44:46.520 --> 00:44:55.720] You know, when something has worked for us or we perceive it's worked for us, I think a lot of us then falsely jump to the conclusion that that must be the way that everyone needs to approach stuff.
[00:44:55.720 --> 00:44:57.000] And I'm trying to be aware of that.
[00:44:57.320 --> 00:44:58.840] Actually, no, that worked for me.
[00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:01.800] It doesn't mean it's going to work as well for everyone.
[00:45:01.800 --> 00:45:02.200] Right.
[00:45:02.200 --> 00:45:06.840] So that would be an example of a top-down intervention.
[00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:07.640] Right.
[00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:12.520] Now, I will also acknowledge, I mentioned Helen, my movement coach.
[00:45:12.840 --> 00:45:21.800] My body and the way I move and my ability to access different movements has also completely changed through working with Helen.
[00:45:21.800 --> 00:45:22.200] Right.
[00:45:22.520 --> 00:45:30.600] And so I also believe, as you do, I think that the body stores emotions in advertising commas, right?
[00:45:30.920 --> 00:45:39.280] And therefore, once you can start to access different movements, your posture, your personality, your emotions start to change.
[00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:39.520] Right.
[00:45:39.560 --> 00:45:41.520] So I've also done that at the same time.
[00:45:41.240 --> 00:45:41.600] Yeah.
[00:45:42.520 --> 00:45:58.320] So I can't say it was just that, but I guess what I'm trying to get to with you is, you know, you're sort of saying that you think that bottom-up is arguably more powerful than top-down.
[00:45:58.320 --> 00:45:58.720] Yeah.
[00:45:58.720 --> 00:46:03.120] I mean, so I would say first, first off, the ideal is you stack.
[00:46:03.120 --> 00:46:07.440] You stack the top-down, the bottom-up, and also the outside in is the third category as well.
[00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:10.640] That's like the people around you, your environment, the things we were talking about as well.
[00:46:10.720 --> 00:46:11.920] So you're saying you hit it from multiple angles.
[00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:12.800] You hit it from lots of answers.
[00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:14.880] Yeah, you hit it from all of the angles.
[00:46:15.120 --> 00:46:20.560] I think in my experience, the bottom-up is the most underappreciated and kind of most ignored.
[00:46:20.560 --> 00:46:30.080] And I do believe it's the most effective if someone is in a state of, you know, their anxiety is ramping up maybe towards a panic attack or they're getting really stressed.
[00:46:30.080 --> 00:46:30.400] Yeah.
[00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:33.200] It's the most effective kind of short-term intervention.
[00:46:33.200 --> 00:46:47.680] But in terms of the long-term, I mean, I think it's actually, this is kind of going a little like a layer deeper, but I think that both top-down and bottom-up interventions can also be used to avoid feeling emotions.
[00:46:47.680 --> 00:47:04.800] And this is something I call the self-regulation paradox: in that if you're just using journaling or CBT or breathwork to kind of ground yourself, but ultimately avoid feeling whatever the emotion is, you're not going to make progress over time.
[00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:14.720] Because I view these practices as purely a means to get back into our window of tolerance and then to allow the emotion to actually move through.
[00:47:14.720 --> 00:47:27.920] Because if we're still moving through the world in a way that we are avoiding feeling sadness or anger or grief or whatever the thing is, then we will always be making these predictions that, like, oh, that's that's bad.
[00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:29.360] We're not going to go near that.
[00:47:29.360 --> 00:47:35.720] And so the intensity of our in which they present in our bodies will just get worse and worse over time.
[00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:40.440] And we'll have to do like more and more of these interventions in order to kind of self-regulate.
[00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:41.800] Yeah, I love that, right?
[00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:43.480] I love the way you frame that.
[00:47:43.480 --> 00:47:48.840] So we're feeling reactive over something.
[00:47:49.160 --> 00:48:01.320] We can learn some top-down practices or some bottom-up practices to reduce that reactivity and perhaps reduce how much we react to that stimulus in the future.
[00:48:01.320 --> 00:48:01.880] Exactly.
[00:48:02.120 --> 00:48:06.760] Unless we go one level deeper and go, okay, we've reduced the reactivity.
[00:48:06.760 --> 00:48:14.280] Now let's really feel that emotion and let that emotion work through us, like the impala sort of shaking it out.
[00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:14.520] Yes.
[00:48:15.240 --> 00:48:16.840] It will still be there.
[00:48:16.840 --> 00:48:20.280] It will be having a hold on us.
[00:48:21.800 --> 00:48:33.720] And when the right scenario presents itself, the right comments, the right amount of sleep deprivation, the right comment from your boss, it's like a match that still lights it.
[00:48:33.720 --> 00:48:34.840] Precisely, precisely.
[00:48:34.840 --> 00:48:38.200] And you mentioned earlier that emotions are stored in the body.
[00:48:38.200 --> 00:48:44.360] And up until recently, I think this was a fairly kind of almost like a fringe belief, but we didn't really have like a mechanism for this.
[00:48:44.360 --> 00:48:49.400] And there's a really interesting theoretical neuroscientist called Michael Edward Johnson.
[00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:59.080] And he has this idea that in the smooth muscle tissue, there are these latches that are created every time we kind of buffer these emotions.
[00:48:59.080 --> 00:49:05.800] And so there are literally, like pockets of tension that are stored in the smooth muscle tissue using this latch-latch bridge mechanism.
[00:49:06.120 --> 00:49:08.840] And my belief, I'd love to find a way to test this.
[00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:11.240] I'm working with him to try and run an experiment on this.
[00:49:11.720 --> 00:49:23.440] But I would love to be able to do a kind of before and after of, let's say, you know, before a series of five breathwork journeys or before MGMA-assisted psychotherapy, like what is someone's latch profile before and after?
[00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:24.640] Because you can see it.
[00:49:24.640 --> 00:49:37.440] Sometimes my students or my breathwork clients, you can literally see the tension kind of dissolve in their face or different areas, or they feel like, oh, like I suddenly have sensations in my belly that I didn't have before.
[00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:49.520] You know, these things happen anecdotally, but I would bet that there is a strong correlation between these latches in the smooth muscle tissue and the amount of just unprocessed, undigested emotions.
[00:49:49.520 --> 00:49:50.800] Yeah, that is so interesting.
[00:49:51.040 --> 00:49:51.600] Super interesting.
[00:49:51.600 --> 00:49:53.760] Well, it brings up quite a few things for me.
[00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:59.440] Firstly, this idea that emotions are stored in the body.
[00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:04.480] And this idea that you mentioned that until recently it's been deemed like quite a fringe concept.
[00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:12.800] And I think in many ways that is a reflection of the head-based rational world in which we live, right?
[00:50:13.120 --> 00:50:18.960] The need to find a mechanism for something that many humans will say, well, we've intuitively known this for thousands of years.
[00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:20.960] Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't find a mechanism.
[00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:22.320] I think it's fun to.
[00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:29.600] At the same time, I find many things are deemed fringe when we don't have a scientific mechanism to explain them.
[00:50:30.080 --> 00:50:42.480] You know, I've been into an, you know, I've been in enough movement classes over the years to see when people have certain movements unlocked and released, they can be shaking and crying for like 20 minutes sometimes.
[00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:52.400] It's like, oh my God, what on earth was stored in your hip flexors that when you finally release them for the first time, you were just shaking.
[00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:54.000] It reminds me of the impeller, right?
[00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:54.480] Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:50:54.560 --> 00:50:57.200] Maybe that emotion got stored, it wasn't completed.
[00:50:57.200 --> 00:50:57.760] Exactly.
[00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:02.600] And that movement allowed it to be completed, which then begs the question for me.
[00:51:06.120 --> 00:51:19.400] If you have a stored emotion that's there from a previous trauma or a previous event, can you process it without even thinking about it?
[00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:19.960] Yes.
[00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:20.440] Yeah.
[00:51:20.440 --> 00:51:21.240] Yeah, you can.
[00:51:21.240 --> 00:51:31.240] And I think that's why my bias is more in the bottom-up category because I've had a number of personal experiences, mostly through doing hundreds of breathwork journeys.
[00:51:31.240 --> 00:51:33.000] It was kind of my approach.
[00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:35.080] But I've had many, many experiences.
[00:51:35.560 --> 00:51:37.960] I believe that many of them were kind of pre-verbal.
[00:51:37.960 --> 00:51:44.120] So things that happened between the ages of zero to a year and a half before I even had language.
[00:51:44.120 --> 00:51:51.960] And so I'd be experiencing these incredibly intense emotions from like abandonment, grief, rage.
[00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:54.280] And I had no story of what was going on.
[00:51:54.280 --> 00:52:03.400] It was purely just, I was just witnessing these really intense emotions like coursing through my body, but having zero idea what they were connected to.
[00:52:03.400 --> 00:52:16.520] And that's happened, you know, more times than I can count, which is why I think the intellectual piece, the top-down piece, is a really useful kind of like wedge in the door because it gets people in contact with the felt sensation.
[00:52:16.520 --> 00:52:30.360] But I think that if it remains purely in the realm of the intellect and there isn't some kind of contact with the physical somatic kind of sensation and response, then I don't believe that the latches can actually be opened.
[00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:32.360] Yeah, that is such a beautiful example.
[00:52:32.360 --> 00:52:37.800] I mean, if things have been stored in our body before we could even speak, how the hell are we going to cognitively reframe that?
[00:52:37.880 --> 00:52:38.840] We have an angular language for it.
[00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:39.880] Yeah, right, exactly.
[00:52:40.200 --> 00:52:57.280] And it also makes me think where I'm sort of landing on this, I won't call it a conundrum, but this kind of top-down, bottom-up, which again, I actually do believe is an artificial separation because that is then predicated on the belief that the body and mind are separate, which I don't believe they are.
[00:52:57.280 --> 00:53:03.680] So you could even make the case that even a powerful form of cognitive reframing is in some way changing the body.
[00:53:03.680 --> 00:53:04.240] It is, yeah.
[00:53:04.240 --> 00:53:05.760] Because these things aren't separate.
[00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:06.560] Totally.
[00:53:07.200 --> 00:53:16.800] I think where I love top-down as a short-term thing, at least, is to help people understand cognitively, at least, maybe not on the body yet.
[00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:20.240] And I agree with you that bottom-up is super important as well, right?
[00:53:20.240 --> 00:53:27.760] So it's more for the purpose of a conversation that I bring these things up because I think it's really interesting to explore.
[00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:28.960] I agree.
[00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:38.800] One thing I want to sort of impart with people is this idea that the responses within you are being brought up within you.
[00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:43.760] It's very easy to blame the external world for our internal responses.
[00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:51.680] But until you understand that actually the external world might send you some signals, right?
[00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:56.720] But ultimately, it's your internal response to those signals that's causing the issue.
[00:53:56.720 --> 00:53:58.560] It doesn't mean it's not hard in some situations.
[00:53:58.560 --> 00:54:08.560] Of course, if you're in war or you're suffering severe trauma, you know, and someone's traumatizing you, I'm not saying that isn't happening or it's not incredibly difficult.
[00:54:08.560 --> 00:54:13.440] But let's take it away from those extreme examples and talk about a comment on social media, right?
[00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:20.160] Which people are walking around getting triggered every single day by what I would call neutral comments on social media.
[00:54:20.160 --> 00:54:27.360] I think top-down is really useful to help people understand: look, the comment really at its core is neutral.
[00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:35.080] You know, what you're touching on is a really important piece, which is this idea of like full ownership and full agency.
[00:54:35.560 --> 00:54:46.680] And I think that when we are suffering and when we're resisting our experience, it's because we are feeling in some way or shape or form like we're a victim of that.
[00:54:46.680 --> 00:54:54.920] Like we had no control or power, whether it was like something your boss said or your partner said or a victim of even circumstances.
[00:54:54.920 --> 00:55:07.560] And when you make that move to no, I'm creating this, it at the same time, it also softens your resistance to the physical things that you're feeling as well.
[00:55:07.560 --> 00:55:13.160] And so, as you said, the top-down, bottom-up distinction is actually in some ways, it doesn't exist.
[00:55:13.160 --> 00:55:22.120] And, you know, for people who've done like extended meditation retreats, for example, they can notice when a certain thought arises, there will be a corresponding subtle tension in their body.
[00:55:22.120 --> 00:55:33.320] So, every time we have a thought or an idea, there is a corresponding mental kind of sensation that arises on just a really kind of like very subtle level.
[00:55:33.320 --> 00:55:36.680] And so, as you say, there is this direct connection.
[00:55:36.680 --> 00:55:47.560] Yeah, you shared a story recently about a monk who came and did one of your courses.
[00:55:47.560 --> 00:55:48.200] Oh, yeah.
[00:55:48.200 --> 00:55:48.840] Yeah, yeah.
[00:55:48.840 --> 00:56:05.160] And it was such a powerful story because my recollection of it, and perhaps you could share it again, is that there was a monk who'd done a ton of meditation, yet, somehow, would managed to avoid feeling their emotions.
[00:56:05.160 --> 00:56:11.000] And so, there was anger raging within them that they didn't know about until it came out.
[00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:11.960] So, could you just share that?
[00:56:11.960 --> 00:56:14.320] Because I think that's an incredibly powerful example.
[00:56:14.320 --> 00:56:20.960] How some of the time we're bypassing our emotions and think we're moving forwards when we're actually not.
[00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:21.440] Yeah, I know.
[00:56:21.520 --> 00:56:22.880] I'm really glad you brought this up.
[00:56:23.200 --> 00:56:28.400] So, this was a monk who'd spent 20 plus years in a monastery.
[00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:37.280] And I actually get a surprising number of students in my course who are long-term meditators, but they still aren't happy, honestly.
[00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:41.200] They still experience anxiety, they still experience reactivity.
[00:56:41.200 --> 00:56:43.120] And I love meditation myself.
[00:56:43.120 --> 00:57:08.160] I've, you know, I practice regularly, but I do think that it is a very obviously there's different types of meditation, but often what long-term meditators will get very good at is that kind of move to where they are deconstructing reality or they are, what's the word, kind of creating cognitive distance between themselves and the feeling or the emotion.
[00:57:08.160 --> 00:57:17.120] And it's very, very different to neutrally observe a feeling or sensation versus like fully welcome it.
[00:57:17.120 --> 00:57:33.440] And the example that I think will make this real for people is: if you imagine, if you imagine your kids, like neutrally observing your kids having a tantrum is very different from like going up and giving them a hug, like you will have a very different reaction between in the in those two scenarios.
[00:57:33.440 --> 00:57:52.560] And so, in the example of this monk, through a series of breathwork journeys, just realized that there was a huge amount of unprocessed anger, essentially, and rage that was likely the reason he got into meditation in the first place to kind of avoid feeling that discomfort all the time.
[00:57:52.560 --> 00:58:05.160] And yeah, and I find often often anger is one of the things that, like, once it moves, it releases such like aliveness in the body again and kind of energy and like vibrancy.
[00:58:05.720 --> 00:58:14.680] And even, you know, people, again, this is anecdotal, but people who've been depressed and lethargic for long periods of time, the anger is almost being turned inwards through the inner critic.
[00:58:14.680 --> 00:58:20.120] So they will be like angry at themselves and judging themselves and have all this negative self-talk.
[00:58:20.120 --> 00:58:26.360] And once that anger gets a chance to kind of be expressed and be externalized, it like frees up all this energy.
[00:58:26.360 --> 00:58:31.960] And I love seeing it because it's like, like, someone really comes alive after that moves through.
[00:58:32.680 --> 00:58:46.520] So yeah, I think it's another good example of like a very nuanced pitfall on a path of, you know, you might say, yeah, meditation is great, like meditate as much as you can, but it is if you're only meditating in certain ways.
[00:58:46.520 --> 00:58:56.760] I mean, I think meta practice or like loving kindness practice or jhana practice actually is slightly different versus the kind of mindfulness which is you know most common in our society.
[00:58:56.760 --> 00:59:05.480] It's such an interesting point that this monk, I think you said that he or she had meditated for 20 or 30,000 hours, right?
[00:59:05.720 --> 00:59:18.520] I think most of us would assume that someone who had done that much meditation, especially let's say taking vows as a monk and gone away to meditate, would have processed their emotions and they were living in a state of inner calm.
[00:59:18.760 --> 00:59:20.760] And so I think that really stuck out me when I heard that.
[00:59:20.760 --> 00:59:25.080] I go, wow, how many for us are bypassing our emotions?
[00:59:25.080 --> 00:59:25.720] Exactly.
[00:59:25.720 --> 00:59:30.680] Could I be bypassing my emotions in some parts of my life without realizing it?
[00:59:30.840 --> 00:59:32.520] It's really interesting to reflect on.
[00:59:32.520 --> 00:59:46.240] And you said before, let's say you're in a meeting at work and you feel angry, let's say at your boss, and you're saying it's quite a good skill to be able to suppress that anger and not show it in the moment.
[00:59:44.600 --> 00:59:48.320] Okay, so let's go back to that example.
[00:59:49.280 --> 01:00:00.400] So, I think this is a scenario that many people will feel when whether it's their boss or their colleagues, they're in a situation that they feel angry, but it's not appropriate in their work environment to express that anger.
[01:00:00.400 --> 01:00:08.320] Okay, so for the purpose of that meeting, they kept it in and they were as an inverted commas professional as they could be.
[01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:23.760] What should that person then do, in your view, or what are some of the things that person can then do to feel the anger, to process the anger, and then move on from the anger?
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[01:02:15.320 --> 01:02:18.200] So I'll actually give two suggestions here.
[01:02:18.200 --> 01:02:22.120] One's like the kind of beginner level, and the other is like the advanced level.
[01:02:22.120 --> 01:02:26.120] And I'll maybe give some more context around anger as well because it's a really good example.
[01:02:26.440 --> 01:02:31.320] So anger can, in my view, get kinked in two different ways.
[01:02:31.320 --> 01:02:34.680] And if you think of like it moving through a hose pipe, if you kink it one way, something happens.
[01:02:34.680 --> 01:02:36.040] If you kink it the other, something else happens.
[01:02:36.360 --> 01:02:42.760] If you kink it one way, it comes out as like passive aggression, where you know someone's like, oh, like nice t-shirt.
[01:02:42.760 --> 01:02:48.200] Or, you know, it's that kind of like kinked way of like being angry, but not really owning your anger.
[01:02:48.200 --> 01:02:49.320] What's wrong with my t-shirt?
[01:02:49.320 --> 01:02:50.440] Yeah, I mean, mate.
[01:02:51.960 --> 01:02:53.320] You actually have a nice t-shirt on it.
[01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:54.440] I really like it.
[01:02:55.160 --> 01:02:59.800] And then the other way is, you know, what people more commonly think of as anger, which is like aggression.
[01:02:59.800 --> 01:03:01.880] And again, it's not really feeling the anger.
[01:03:01.880 --> 01:03:07.080] It's like blaming someone else for your experience, basically, and being overly aggressive.
[01:03:07.080 --> 01:03:07.480] So, hold on.
[01:03:07.480 --> 01:03:09.160] So let's just really try and land this.
[01:03:09.160 --> 01:03:17.760] So, something's happened that we're feeling angry about, but instead of feeling it, we're sort of blaming the other people.
[01:03:17.840 --> 01:03:18.480] We're getting defensive.
[01:03:18.800 --> 01:03:20.160] We're getting defensive, right?
[01:03:20.160 --> 01:03:24.240] So, help people understand what's the difference between that and feeling the anger.
[01:03:24.240 --> 01:03:29.040] Because some people might feel that, hold on a minute, well, that is me being angry.
[01:03:29.040 --> 01:03:34.160] My defensiveness is a reflection of me being angry, but you're saying that's not feeling the anger.
[01:03:34.720 --> 01:03:48.000] Yeah, there's a really, I'd say the best way to articulate this is to the degree that you're kind of grounded and in your body when you're expressing the anger.
[01:03:48.160 --> 01:03:57.840] And so, like anger that it's like clean anger, let's say, is the phrase that I have, is basically just like clarity and determination and like setting a boundary.
[01:03:57.840 --> 01:04:01.360] What comes from really clean anger is like setting a boundary from a place of love.
[01:04:01.360 --> 01:04:04.160] It's like, no, like that's not okay.
[01:04:04.160 --> 01:04:07.760] Like, that's kind of the energy of like clean anger.
[01:04:07.760 --> 01:04:16.080] But often it takes a while to kind of get to the point where we can just express in that kind of like clean, loving way.
[01:04:16.080 --> 01:04:21.360] And so, having a practice, so let's kind of go back to the example of someone in a boardroom.
[01:04:21.360 --> 01:04:23.520] Someone said something super angry.
[01:04:23.520 --> 01:04:26.640] It wasn't appropriate to kind of maybe even speak.
[01:04:26.640 --> 01:04:28.800] So, they leave the room, they're really charged.
[01:04:28.800 --> 01:04:31.440] There's this like, oh, there's like real energy.
[01:04:32.400 --> 01:04:35.680] I mean, there's a number of ways that you can kind of work with this.
[01:04:36.240 --> 01:04:45.280] Some of my clients will like go on drives and they'll just like roll the windows up and drive on the road and just like let it out, like make loud sound.
[01:04:45.280 --> 01:04:52.320] I generally recommend like breath, sound, and movement are three good kind of ways of expressing the energy.
[01:04:52.320 --> 01:04:53.200] Breath, sound, and movement.
[01:04:53.280 --> 01:04:54.080] Breath, sound, and movement.
[01:04:54.080 --> 01:04:56.080] Yeah, and you say expressing the energy.
[01:04:56.080 --> 01:04:59.200] Is that the same as feeling the energy?
[01:04:59.200 --> 01:05:00.360] Or is that subtly different?
[01:05:00.680 --> 01:05:15.080] So some of the signs that I can kind of give to people are like if you feel a sense of relief or like an exhale or like a sigh afterwards, that particular reflex or that motion has completed.
[01:05:15.400 --> 01:05:16.200] Okay, hold on.
[01:05:16.200 --> 01:05:16.360] Right.
[01:05:16.440 --> 01:05:17.880] So you went, you okay.
[01:05:17.880 --> 01:05:19.160] Let's make it super practical.
[01:05:19.240 --> 01:05:20.520] So you're in the room.
[01:05:20.520 --> 01:05:22.040] You don't like something that's happened.
[01:05:22.200 --> 01:05:25.800] You feel your boss hasn't spoken to you in the way that you think is appropriate.
[01:05:25.800 --> 01:05:26.200] Okay.
[01:05:26.840 --> 01:05:30.920] And but you keep a lid on it, but you're you're angry on the inside.
[01:05:30.920 --> 01:05:31.160] Okay.
[01:05:31.160 --> 01:05:32.200] The meeting finishes.
[01:05:32.200 --> 01:05:33.640] Let's say it's lunchtime now.
[01:05:33.640 --> 01:05:36.520] You've got you've got a one-hour lunch break.
[01:05:36.520 --> 01:05:36.840] Yeah.
[01:05:36.840 --> 01:05:37.400] Okay.
[01:05:38.120 --> 01:05:43.640] And you're saying earlier that that emotion technically is only there for 10 or 20 seconds, right?
[01:05:43.640 --> 01:05:46.760] Yet many people are still angry a week later, okay?
[01:05:46.760 --> 01:05:48.600] Which is clearly a problem.
[01:05:49.240 --> 01:05:51.000] What can they do in that lunch break?
[01:05:51.000 --> 01:05:51.400] Okay.
[01:05:51.400 --> 01:05:53.640] So they're, you know, maybe they haven't got a car.
[01:05:53.640 --> 01:05:55.160] They can't go for a drive at the coast.
[01:05:55.160 --> 01:05:57.320] They can't go and ground in the local park.
[01:05:57.320 --> 01:06:03.720] I mean, imagine it's a rainy, cold, dark winter's day and that's happened to someone.
[01:06:04.280 --> 01:06:10.440] What can they do in that one hour break that allows them to feel that anger and process it?
[01:06:10.440 --> 01:06:11.080] Yeah, okay.
[01:06:11.080 --> 01:06:14.040] So really, yeah, really great example.
[01:06:14.040 --> 01:06:19.400] Often I will say it's ideal if you can kind of be in your own home, especially if you're kind of doing this in the beginning.
[01:06:19.400 --> 01:06:22.040] So it's helpful to maybe like wait till the end of the day.
[01:06:22.040 --> 01:06:22.360] Great.
[01:06:22.360 --> 01:06:26.440] And go back, like go to your bedroom, like a kind of private space.
[01:06:26.680 --> 01:06:33.320] The simplest is either like kind of hitting pillows sometimes would be good, like allowing some sound to move through.
[01:06:33.320 --> 01:06:37.160] Can you even say, God, that guy's such an idiot, and bang your pillow.
[01:06:37.160 --> 01:06:37.640] Completely.
[01:06:37.640 --> 01:06:39.400] You know, that you would say that's healthy.
[01:06:39.440 --> 01:06:40.680] I would say, I would say it's healthy.
[01:06:40.680 --> 01:07:07.920] I think the key thing is that at some point, you have to, and this kind of comes back to the top-down, bottom-up distinction: is if you are constantly recycling the story of what happened and not actually connected to the sensations that are associated with the anger, what we call just like looping, where it will feel as if the anger goes on forever because you're kind of connected to the story, and the story is continuously like bringing up more and more.
[01:07:08.080 --> 01:07:12.720] So, your mind actually now from the top is actually generating more stress.
[01:07:12.720 --> 01:07:13.440] Yes, exactly.
[01:07:13.440 --> 01:07:20.880] And it's actually taking that anger that actually is that short-term feeling and emotion that you have that perhaps you haven't felt.
[01:07:20.880 --> 01:07:26.160] And the story you're telling yourself is pouring fuel on the fire, making the anger much bigger than it is.
[01:07:26.160 --> 01:07:26.880] Exactly.
[01:07:26.880 --> 01:07:28.880] So, this is where the body comes in, right?
[01:07:28.880 --> 01:07:45.600] So, the key is, and then coming back to like full circle back to interoception, if you can connect to the sensations that you're experiencing, so for many people, it's like heat, it's like tightness in the chest, and then kind of make the movements or sounds from that place.
[01:07:45.600 --> 01:08:00.000] That's when there's the sense of like, like, oh, like, and you know, it will take you know, 10, 20, 30 seconds, sometimes longer for people, but there will be a felt sense of like relaxation and just like, oh, like, thank God on the other side of that.
[01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:00.960] Yeah, okay.
[01:08:00.960 --> 01:08:09.920] So, let's say you come out of your bedroom, you've acknowledged you're angry, which is important because some people don't even acknowledge that.
[01:08:09.920 --> 01:08:12.640] They think, oh, like you said before, everyone thought you were calm.
[01:08:12.640 --> 01:08:14.720] Yeah, yeah, you're suppressing, right?
[01:08:14.720 --> 01:08:19.520] So, it came across as calm, but actually, there was a there was a whole tension behind that calmness.
[01:08:20.880 --> 01:08:28.960] Okay, so someone could just lie there or sit down, make sure the belly's coming out, make sure they're really breathing, feeling where the tension is, trying to let it go.
[01:08:29.280 --> 01:08:30.040] Okay.
[01:08:29.440 --> 01:08:34.200] Some people even struggle with something like that, especially initially.
[01:08:34.360 --> 01:08:38.040] They're not used to feeling that tension in their body.
[01:08:38.040 --> 01:08:38.920] No, totally.
[01:08:39.240 --> 01:08:50.280] If they were so inclined and they went to their, on their street or their local park and did five minutes of hard sprinting, let's say, right?
[01:08:50.280 --> 01:08:58.760] Because we're saying that there's an emotion stored in our body, maybe stored in our muscles, depending on what you believe and what you read and what your take is on that.
[01:08:59.720 --> 01:09:11.880] This idea that you don't need to know with your mind how you're processing something, but you can do it simply through your body is a really seductive concept to me, right?
[01:09:11.880 --> 01:09:21.000] I think about the Impala and how the Impala hasn't actually, not that I know what it's like to be an Impala, okay, to be clear, right?
[01:09:21.000 --> 01:09:23.000] But I'm guessing the Impala.
[01:09:23.240 --> 01:09:25.480] It's probably not telling a story about that bloody lion.
[01:09:25.480 --> 01:09:26.120] Yeah.
[01:09:26.440 --> 01:09:32.440] They've just got this intuitive mechanism that perhaps we have had before and we've lost, right?
[01:09:32.760 --> 01:09:36.520] Of shaking it out of their system so that they're free afterwards.
[01:09:37.560 --> 01:09:42.040] Could it be as simple as that for some humans where we shake it out of our system?
[01:09:42.040 --> 01:09:44.040] Is that why yoga is so useful?
[01:09:44.040 --> 01:09:45.080] Is that why sprinting?
[01:09:45.080 --> 01:09:47.080] Is that why jumping jets can be so useful?
[01:09:47.080 --> 01:09:57.240] Because I think for some people, that might feel easier than sitting in silence and trying to see where is there tightness in my body?
[01:09:57.240 --> 01:09:58.440] Can I let that go?
[01:09:58.760 --> 01:09:59.560] Help us understand that.
[01:09:59.560 --> 01:10:01.880] Yeah, so there's two things I want to add to that.
[01:10:01.880 --> 01:10:10.040] The first is that there is, I think, actually an important role for a top-down orientation in this process.
[01:10:10.040 --> 01:10:21.200] And for me, I really remember this, I was doing a breathwork training, and my teacher said to me, he said, you are loved in your anger.
[01:10:21.840 --> 01:10:26.000] And I just like, I remember in that moment, I just broke down crying.
[01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:39.520] And I think that many of us, particularly maybe men growing up in England, like myself, there's a way in which like, I think when I was younger, I'd hurt other people from like in fits of anger.
[01:10:39.520 --> 01:10:43.760] And I then viewed my anger as being inherently bad.
[01:10:43.760 --> 01:10:45.040] And this was kind of happening.
[01:10:45.040 --> 01:10:45.840] I wasn't aware of that.
[01:10:45.840 --> 01:10:48.320] It was like below my conscious awareness.
[01:10:48.320 --> 01:10:57.920] And having that frame of like, oh, I can still be loved even when I'm being angry was like, Jesus, like that just like opened me up.
[01:10:57.920 --> 01:11:12.080] And it allowed me to allow anger to kind of flow in a way that I wasn't actually trying to kind of like contract against it because I had a belief that I was inherently bad if I was being an angry person.
[01:11:12.080 --> 01:11:27.440] And so I think that's, and I imagine there's many people out there that consciously or unconsciously have that kind of belief running in the background of like, and you know, even meditation, like it can subtly reinforce this idea of like, you're bad if you're angry, like you're a bad meditator if anger comes up.
[01:11:27.440 --> 01:11:31.040] And so I think that's, that was a big unlock for me personally.
[01:11:31.040 --> 01:11:44.480] And then secondly, kind of speaking to the way that you, the way that this moves, at the risk of sounding like, like, woo or whatever, there's a way in which the body has its own intelligence, right?
[01:11:44.800 --> 01:11:50.400] And all you need to do is get out of the way, and the body will know how to complete that.
[01:11:50.400 --> 01:12:02.120] And so, what I think, like, sprinting can be great, shaking can be great, but really, all you're doing is trying to kind of like get to the point where the body will almost just start moving on its own and it'll just know what to do.
[01:11:59.840 --> 01:12:04.760] And you just have to like witness it and just watch it happen.
[01:12:05.400 --> 01:12:10.200] And so, many of these practices, so I have one called somatic surfing, somatic experiencing.
[01:12:10.200 --> 01:12:23.160] There's many different sometimes shaking, sometimes TRE, there's many ways of like getting into this state, but ultimately, you're just trying to get back to like what that Impala already knew, which is this just way of discharging the energy.
[01:12:23.160 --> 01:12:24.280] Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?
[01:12:24.280 --> 01:12:32.280] We think we've become more advanced, you know, like the human minds, and look at all these buildings and all this technology.
[01:12:32.280 --> 01:12:39.160] And of course, depending on how you look at the world, you could say humans are incredibly advanced in terms of what we can now do.
[01:12:39.480 --> 01:13:06.440] But I do question that sometimes because you know, if you look at like some pretty objective data, despite all the material things we have access to and all the technology, and you know, the fact that many of us now are living lives that are better than royalty maybe 250 years ago, in terms of the standard of our lives and that in terms of material quality, unhappiness is on the rise, anxiety is on the rise, depression is on the rise.
[01:13:06.440 --> 01:13:14.920] So, I even sometimes question this kind of whole idea that, oh, you know, we're getting better because are we?
[01:13:14.920 --> 01:13:23.880] Yeah, of course, we are in some levels, but that Impala seems to have that, you know, innate intelligence that it hasn't lost yet.
[01:13:24.120 --> 01:13:27.160] Now, of course, the Impala's life is under threat every day as well.
[01:13:27.160 --> 01:13:34.760] So, I acknowledge that, you know, thankfully, I live in a safe country, in a safe place where my life is not under threat.
[01:13:34.760 --> 01:13:35.960] So, I'm not trying to romanticize.
[01:13:35.960 --> 01:13:37.320] It's not either or, is it?
[01:13:37.320 --> 01:13:51.200] It's like, how can we live in this beautiful world in which humans have created and at the same time not lose the innate intelligence that all of us had that those guys, the wild animals, still have, that we've lost.
[01:13:51.200 --> 01:13:58.320] I really do like that idea that the body knows what to do if we get out of its way.
[01:13:58.320 --> 01:13:58.880] Totally.
[01:13:58.880 --> 01:13:59.280] Totally.
[01:13:59.280 --> 01:14:06.720] Well, the way that I think about this on maybe like the deepest level is this idea of like coming back home to ourselves.
[01:14:06.720 --> 01:14:12.960] But the phrase that I really like is secure attachment with life, secure attachment with reality.
[01:14:12.960 --> 01:14:26.480] And most people, you know, many people have heard of this idea of having attachment strategies with partners, but this idea of coming back to feeling fundamentally at home in our bodies and in the world.
[01:14:26.480 --> 01:14:44.720] And I think ultimately this is what is, this is the, you know, the deeper journey of nervous system mastery is opening up these latches, is creating the conditions of safety so that all parts of our psyche learn to feel inherently like safe in the world.
[01:14:44.720 --> 01:14:50.320] And the safer you feel, the less you will get triggered, the less you will get reactive, the less you will get anxious.
[01:14:50.320 --> 01:14:56.640] And the way that I've started to view this for myself is viewing anxiety as like, it's like a beautiful signpost.
[01:14:56.640 --> 01:15:03.600] It's like, oh, like here's a way in which you're still protecting yourself from some aspect of your experience.
[01:15:03.600 --> 01:15:05.120] And like, what a, what a gift.
[01:15:05.120 --> 01:15:10.000] Like, that's an invitation to kind of get curious about it, to move towards it.
[01:15:10.240 --> 01:15:14.720] Maybe like courageous curiosity, because it takes some courage to kind of move into it.
[01:15:14.720 --> 01:15:20.640] But like, like on the other side, there's like, there's like more freedom, there's more agency, there's more aliveness.
[01:15:20.640 --> 01:15:24.320] And that for me is like, it almost turns life into a game, right?
[01:15:24.320 --> 01:15:31.720] It's like every little time I start to get like triggered or annoyed or whatever it is, that's like, oh, cool, like, I wonder what's there for me.
[01:15:31.880 --> 01:15:34.200] I know for many years, love it when I get triggered.
[01:15:34.200 --> 01:15:34.760] Nice.
[01:15:29.760 --> 01:15:39.720] Honestly, I know it sounds ridiculous to some people, maybe not to you, but I'm like, oh, wow.
[01:15:39.720 --> 01:15:49.560] Because without that triggering, I would have, I would never have had the opportunity to kind of process this thing that's under the surface that I'm not maybe cognizantly aware of.
[01:15:49.560 --> 01:16:02.360] And it's only by that experience, that comment, that event that, you know, because you can either push it away or go, oh, wow, there's still something there on process.
[01:16:02.440 --> 01:16:09.400] There's still something because the thing that you think is triggering you is not the thing that's actually triggering you.
[01:16:09.400 --> 01:16:11.160] Or it's not the root cause of it, is it?
[01:16:11.160 --> 01:16:11.720] Yeah, yeah.
[01:16:11.720 --> 01:16:14.760] It's something else underneath that hasn't been processed.
[01:16:14.760 --> 01:16:15.640] It's like a beautiful mirror.
[01:16:15.640 --> 01:16:16.360] So something that's happening.
[01:16:16.360 --> 01:16:16.920] It's a beautiful mirror.
[01:16:17.720 --> 01:16:21.320] I know you're a fan of this quote from a tribe.
[01:16:22.040 --> 01:16:25.400] Knowledge is only a rumor until it lives in the muscle.
[01:16:26.520 --> 01:16:30.920] And I think we can interpret that in many different ways.
[01:16:31.240 --> 01:16:38.520] But I kind of think we can apply it also to some of the things that you've just said and we've been talking about.
[01:16:39.160 --> 01:16:42.280] You know, we're living in a world of more and more knowledge, aren't we?
[01:16:42.280 --> 01:16:46.440] Where there's more podcasts, there's more health blogs, there's more health books, right?
[01:16:46.440 --> 01:16:49.160] So we've got more and more knowledge in our minds.
[01:16:50.200 --> 01:16:54.680] I think a lot of the time people feel that they've done something with that knowledge when they haven't.
[01:16:54.680 --> 01:16:56.920] They've just heard the knowledge.
[01:16:57.240 --> 01:17:04.520] And I passionately believe that the most important things in life can't be taught.
[01:17:04.520 --> 01:17:05.880] They have to be experienced.
[01:17:05.920 --> 01:17:14.800] Yes, and I think that quote really speaks to that and speaks to this idea that actually we need our minds to get out of the way.
[01:17:13.080 --> 01:17:18.320] And if we get out of the way, our body just does it for us.
[01:17:18.320 --> 01:17:18.880] Exactly.
[01:17:14.040 --> 01:17:19.600] Yeah, exactly.
[01:17:19.920 --> 01:17:29.680] So, the way that I like to teach with my coaching clients and in the course is through this idea of being a scientist of your own experience.
[01:17:30.320 --> 01:17:35.520] And, you know, like you said, you can listen to a hundred podcasts and you can hear the same thing over and over again.
[01:17:35.520 --> 01:17:44.000] But if you don't run some kind of experiment in your own life to actually verify it, it won't land in your system as true.
[01:17:44.000 --> 01:17:49.760] And so I think there's an amazing opportunity for just so many creative experiments that you can create.
[01:17:49.760 --> 01:17:53.200] And I know you kind of have some of these on your tour and in your book.
[01:17:53.200 --> 01:18:03.440] I think kind of co-creating experiments with people so they can feel some of these things for themselves is the way that we learn.
[01:18:03.440 --> 01:18:19.680] And so an example might be: I love recommending people take a cold shower, but not because of the health benefits, even though there are a bunch of health benefits, but paying like really close attention to what happens to your body as you start to go towards the cold, icy water.
[01:18:19.680 --> 01:18:26.400] And for most people, there's a sense of like contracting and tensing, like you're bracing yourself against the freezing cold water.
[01:18:26.400 --> 01:18:29.760] I used to go swimming around the pier in Brighton every morning.
[01:18:29.760 --> 01:18:34.640] And most of the time, I'd approach it and I'd be like, oh, like I'm going to be freezing.
[01:18:34.640 --> 01:18:42.560] And that bracing is the same, the exact same response that we have to emotions and to kind of life situations.
[01:18:42.560 --> 01:18:54.400] And if you can kind of be attuned to what that feels like in your body and gradually start to relax, the cold and emotions can actually feel very just like enlivening.
[01:18:54.400 --> 01:18:59.640] And for me, this was actually how I kind of moved through grief.
[01:18:59.120 --> 01:19:03.080] I lost my ex-fiancé, took her own life.
[01:19:03.720 --> 01:19:11.720] And it was through going swimming around this pier in Brighton and learning to like let in the cold and not tense against it.
[01:19:11.720 --> 01:19:21.160] And then applying that same like move in a way to the grief and just allowing it to kind of move through me that I was like, wow.
[01:19:21.720 --> 01:19:24.200] And that totally, like, that changed my life.
[01:19:25.000 --> 01:19:35.080] And so finding ways to create experiments, I mean, you could take a number of things that we've talked about and design your own experiment around it so that you can see if you can feel it.
[01:19:35.080 --> 01:19:41.880] And another example is, you know, doing humming or doing one of the breath work practices, like 4, 7, 8 breathing.
[01:19:41.880 --> 01:19:49.880] It won't stick unless you notice how you feel in the beginning, you do the breathing practice, and then you notice how you feel afterwards.
[01:19:49.880 --> 01:19:55.160] And if you feel different or better, that will like register in your body of like, oh, like, I'll do that again.
[01:19:55.160 --> 01:20:03.000] And you'll remember to do it in a time down the line when you need it, as opposed to just intellectually thinking that it's a good idea.
[01:20:03.000 --> 01:20:06.920] Hey, man, I'm sorry to hear about what you've been through.
[01:20:09.400 --> 01:20:11.880] Do you feel able to share a little bit more about that?
[01:20:11.880 --> 01:20:21.720] Because it sounds though that was pivotal in the journey you've embarked upon and what you do today.
[01:20:22.040 --> 01:20:26.600] Yeah, yeah, I was actually down in Brighton yesterday visiting her memorial tree.
[01:20:26.760 --> 01:20:29.240] It was a tree that we planted down there.
[01:20:30.280 --> 01:20:42.040] I mean, I think what's relevant to this conversation is Sophie was a junior doctor and she suffered from an anxiety attack one morning at work when I was traveling in Portugal.
[01:20:42.040 --> 01:20:46.560] And she came back and she took her own life and she overdosed her medication.
[01:20:46.560 --> 01:21:05.200] And yeah, I mean, this completely, this was like my pivotal kind of turning point where I'd never, you know, I'd had a pretty great childhood, I'd never been through anything hard or challenging, but I'd seen other adults who had, who had not digested their grief.
[01:21:05.200 --> 01:21:15.120] And there was this sense of like, almost like deadness or numbness or like lack of aliveness in them that I was honestly, I was like terrified by.
[01:21:15.120 --> 01:21:23.680] And I said to myself, like, if I don't move towards this grief, I will end up like those like husks of human beings.
[01:21:23.680 --> 01:21:29.920] And so I kind of turned towards it and went like really leaned in.
[01:21:30.640 --> 01:21:35.600] In the beginning, it was meditation retreats, breath work, all this kind of stuff.
[01:21:35.600 --> 01:21:40.400] And like learning how to feel the grief, essentially.
[01:21:40.400 --> 01:21:46.400] And there was one moment that I just like really, really remember.
[01:21:46.800 --> 01:21:52.080] I was kind of approaching her memorial bench in this place called Leova Sands.
[01:21:52.400 --> 01:21:58.160] And every step I took towards it, there was this intensity building in my system.
[01:21:58.160 --> 01:22:04.160] And it just felt like the grief was like a tidal wave that was moving through me.
[01:22:04.160 --> 01:22:14.320] And as I got closer and closer, it felt like it almost just like more than I could take and it almost just like obliterated me.
[01:22:14.320 --> 01:22:22.320] But what was so shocking was that if I let go of the story about having this tragic loss, it actually felt beautiful.
[01:22:22.320 --> 01:22:29.200] It felt like it was like the energy of love, like the energy of like deep connection and like rawness.
[01:22:29.240 --> 01:22:37.480] And that was such a that was, it was just confusing in the beginning because I was like, grief is meant to be this like hard, challenging thing.
[01:22:37.480 --> 01:22:46.440] This terrible thing happened to me and to her, but it was, it was beautiful and it felt almost like deeply joyful in a way.
[01:22:46.440 --> 01:22:52.840] And that just at that point, I was like, okay, everything I thought I knew about emotions is clearly like I have more to learn here.
[01:22:53.080 --> 01:23:00.120] And so that kind of set me on this path, which eventually landed in the nervous system work and kind of teaching this stuff.
[01:23:00.120 --> 01:23:00.920] Yeah.
[01:23:02.840 --> 01:23:05.080] Many people struggle with death.
[01:23:05.560 --> 01:23:10.520] They don't know what to do when a loved one dies.
[01:23:12.120 --> 01:23:27.160] And I once heard you say that you believe that the five stages of grief might well be the five ways in which we try and resist grief, which is really powerful.
[01:23:27.160 --> 01:23:29.160] It's very thought-provoking.
[01:23:29.160 --> 01:23:41.400] And it kind of fits with an idea that I think has probably been sitting on top of everything we've spoken about today, which is this idea that, you know, what we resist persists.
[01:23:41.400 --> 01:23:41.720] Yeah.
[01:23:41.720 --> 01:23:49.560] So this idea that actually we live in the world, we interact with the world, and we're going to feel certain emotions.
[01:23:49.880 --> 01:24:01.320] And as long as we feel that emotion, process the emotion, and then move on from the emotion, in many ways it doesn't stay stuck within us.
[01:24:01.320 --> 01:24:05.400] It doesn't cause that emotional debt that you were talking about earlier.
[01:24:06.040 --> 01:24:13.720] And I think people can get their head around that with the boss who maybe talks to them badly at work.
[01:24:13.720 --> 01:24:14.120] Okay.
[01:24:14.960 --> 01:24:21.600] But when it comes to death and grief, I think people then think, well, this is a completely different scenario.
[01:24:21.920 --> 01:24:26.560] So you've obviously been through some incredible grief.
[01:24:26.560 --> 01:24:30.560] And thank you for sharing certain elements of that story.
[01:24:30.560 --> 01:24:32.560] It's very, very powerful.
[01:24:34.960 --> 01:24:41.440] What would you like to say to someone who's listening right now who is really struggling with grief?
[01:24:41.440 --> 01:24:47.120] They're overwhelmed and they don't know what to do and they're feeling stuck.
[01:24:48.320 --> 01:24:49.600] What would you say to them?
[01:24:50.720 --> 01:25:00.720] Yeah, I mean, I would say there is a healthy denial, I think, that happened in the beginning.
[01:25:00.720 --> 01:25:05.840] Like for me, there was almost this like overwhelm, numbness.
[01:25:05.840 --> 01:25:08.080] It was almost like too much to process, I think.
[01:25:08.080 --> 01:25:10.960] And that's just part of the process.
[01:25:11.920 --> 01:25:21.360] I think that at some point I had this idea of this mantra in my mind of like, I am willing, was like the phrase that I said to myself.
[01:25:21.360 --> 01:25:34.880] And it almost felt like being willing to be obliterated by this like tsunami wave of grief and intensity that felt like it felt like too much to too much to experience.
[01:25:34.880 --> 01:25:39.520] And I think parts of my identity had to die.
[01:25:39.520 --> 01:25:49.600] Like the future vision I had of our relationship and of having a family and of you know the life that I had imagined for us together, that had to die.
[01:25:49.600 --> 01:25:51.200] And I think that's what that's what grief is.
[01:25:51.200 --> 01:25:58.880] Like we experience it with changes in um location, in not only living losing loved ones, but it happens all the time.
[01:25:58.880 --> 01:26:15.080] And I think it's it's allowing parts of our identity to to literally be obliterated and that in the beginning feels initially painful but my my experience was that it was almost like it deepened my capacity to love over time.
[01:26:15.080 --> 01:26:17.720] It was almost like hollowing me out.
[01:26:18.040 --> 01:26:26.520] And yeah, I felt in many moments this raw aliveness.
[01:26:27.960 --> 01:26:32.200] And again, it's kind of exemplifies many of the themes we've talked about.
[01:26:33.080 --> 01:26:35.560] There is this like innate intelligence in me.
[01:26:35.560 --> 01:26:40.760] Like my body, my nervous system knew how to feel and process the grief.
[01:26:40.760 --> 01:26:48.360] I just had to show up and be willing to let it move through me in all the ways that it did.
[01:26:48.360 --> 01:26:58.040] And to the idea of like the five stages of grief being the ways that we resist it, I think that it's almost like the ways in which that grief gets like kinked in our system.
[01:26:58.040 --> 01:27:01.080] Maybe we blame the circumstances for what happened.
[01:27:01.080 --> 01:27:08.680] Or in the beginning, there was part of myself that I blamed myself for not doing more and for not, you know, spotting it and these things.
[01:27:08.680 --> 01:27:15.400] And it would have been very easy for me to get almost like stuck in that endless loop and that endless eddy.
[01:27:16.520 --> 01:27:23.960] But for whatever, you know, maybe good fortune, maybe good luck, I was able to just like allow it to keep on moving and keep on unfolding.
[01:27:23.960 --> 01:27:28.200] And this is, again, kind of coming back to the nervous system.
[01:27:28.200 --> 01:27:32.600] Dysregulation is just when we get stuck.
[01:27:33.320 --> 01:27:38.040] It's when we don't allow the kind of natural cycles to complete.
[01:27:38.600 --> 01:27:42.440] It doesn't mean we don't experience enormous intensities of emotion.
[01:27:42.440 --> 01:27:48.400] And I think grief being like a particularly vivid and extreme example that people can relate to.
[01:27:50.000 --> 01:27:55.040] You said the cold helped you start to face that grief and feel it.
[01:27:55.920 --> 01:28:03.600] The cold is sort of a mechanism that kind of forces people to be in their bodies.
[01:28:03.600 --> 01:28:04.000] Yeah.
[01:28:04.000 --> 01:28:04.400] Right?
[01:28:04.400 --> 01:28:09.360] You can try not to, but you know, depending on how cold it is, you're going to ultimately end up there.
[01:28:09.680 --> 01:28:11.840] So let's just really unpick that.
[01:28:11.840 --> 01:28:18.640] So you're struggling with grief, or someone is struggling with grief.
[01:28:18.960 --> 01:28:25.200] How might a cold shower help them start to feel that emotion?
[01:28:26.160 --> 01:28:26.560] Yeah.
[01:28:27.200 --> 01:28:27.760] Yeah.
[01:28:27.760 --> 01:28:33.280] So I'll use the example of when I was swimming in the cold, but it could apply to a shower as well.
[01:28:33.280 --> 01:28:39.520] Like in the beginning, there is that bracing, that kind of like defending against the cold.
[01:28:39.840 --> 01:28:47.200] And with, you know, after maybe 30 seconds, maybe a minute or so, that intensity starts to die down.
[01:28:47.200 --> 01:28:51.040] And I almost imagined like letting the cold in.
[01:28:51.360 --> 01:28:55.280] And I felt in my body there was like less tension, less bracing.
[01:28:55.280 --> 01:28:58.400] And it's also at the same time, it stops being uncomfortable.
[01:28:58.400 --> 01:29:04.160] And at a certain point, the cold actually feels, there's like heat gets generated in the body and it feels good.
[01:29:04.160 --> 01:29:05.200] It feels amazing.
[01:29:05.200 --> 01:29:06.320] When you start resisting.
[01:29:06.320 --> 01:29:06.800] Yeah, exactly.
[01:29:06.960 --> 01:29:13.840] Like for anyone who's done a cold plunge or a cold shower, like once you start resisting, before you know it, you feel totally relaxed.
[01:29:13.840 --> 01:29:14.400] Exactly.
[01:29:14.400 --> 01:29:16.240] But you feel like you're holding, oh, it's cold.
[01:29:16.240 --> 01:29:16.720] You're tight.
[01:29:16.720 --> 01:29:17.120] You're tight.
[01:29:17.120 --> 01:29:17.760] You're holding on.
[01:29:17.760 --> 01:29:22.240] But we don't realize you just need to let go and actually lean into it.
[01:29:22.240 --> 01:29:24.320] And actually, it gets a lot more comfortable.
[01:29:24.320 --> 01:29:27.120] So, it trains that move of letting go.
[01:29:27.120 --> 01:29:33.240] And I think that's the thing that we that's the rep that we need to do in order to practice.
[01:29:29.680 --> 01:29:34.120] I love that.
[01:29:34.280 --> 01:29:45.160] It sounds like it's not that you had decided, right, I need to process my grief, and so I'm going to go into the ocean to help me process it.
[01:29:45.160 --> 01:29:54.840] It sounds like it was subtly different, which is when I'm in the ocean, it allows me to stop resisting, and as you say, let go.
[01:29:54.840 --> 01:30:10.200] So, the skill that I'm practicing in the cold water then is a universal skill that I am naturally starting to apply to every other element in my life, including my ability to not resist the grief.
[01:30:10.200 --> 01:30:14.200] Exactly, yeah, exactly, right?
[01:30:14.520 --> 01:30:21.400] Which I guess in many ways speaks to this wider concept of bottom-up practices, okay.
[01:30:21.400 --> 01:30:29.320] Taking this out of grief, you offer people, and we discussed a few of them.
[01:30:29.320 --> 01:30:33.560] And I know on your website, on your course, you offer way more, right?
[01:30:33.560 --> 01:30:56.760] But it sounds like there's a variety of different body-based actions, practices that people can do: breath work, cold shower, progressive relaxation, the APE, awareness, posture, emotion, you know, expanding our awareness, whatever it might be for some people, it'll be yoga, right?
[01:30:58.360 --> 01:31:16.240] And is the suggestion for people to play around and experiment with curiosity, a variety of these practices, and maybe choose a couple that they really like that they can practice regularly that allows them to train this skill of letting go.
[01:31:16.480 --> 01:31:18.720] Is that a useful way to look at it for people?
[01:31:14.520 --> 01:31:20.320] I think that's a really useful way to put it.
[01:31:20.640 --> 01:31:27.920] And I think I really emphasize the experiment-based approach because everyone is coming to this work from a different place.
[01:31:27.920 --> 01:31:36.000] Like some people might be experiencing anxiety, some people might be experiencing grief, some people might be burnt out and just really stressed.
[01:31:36.000 --> 01:31:42.480] And there's going to need to be a different approach or a different kind of prescription for everyone, depending on where they're at.
[01:31:42.480 --> 01:31:54.480] And, you know, for some people, maybe just practicing interception, that's often a really good starting point for a lot of people, is just gaining 10% more awareness of their internal state at five times during the day.
[01:31:54.640 --> 01:31:59.200] And again, you have mentioned a few things, but how can somebody do that quite simply?
[01:31:59.200 --> 01:32:17.040] Yeah, so I mean, I recommend either kind of setting a little timer or doing it first thing after you wake up in the morning, and then a little time during the day when you have a transition moment, and then to help downshift or to kind of transition at the end of the day, maybe after a workday or something.
[01:32:17.040 --> 01:32:17.520] Yeah.
[01:32:17.520 --> 01:32:24.320] I find on a personal level that, you know, so many of us store tension and stress in our pelvis.
[01:32:24.320 --> 01:32:25.440] Yeah, completely.
[01:32:25.440 --> 01:32:39.680] And so one thing I find quite useful is, you know, at various points of the day, I'll just stop and make sure I'm taking some big whole body breaths into my lower abdomen, really focus on my diaphragm and my pelvic floor and how it's moving.
[01:32:39.680 --> 01:32:47.280] And, you know, I think those things, we just don't realize how powerful they are.
[01:32:47.280 --> 01:32:53.440] Because instead of them, that tension building up and you're not doing that, so it just keeps a cumite, keeps a cumite, keeps a cumulite.
[01:32:53.440 --> 01:32:56.640] So you think the, you know, you think it was the email at 5 p.m.
[01:32:56.720 --> 01:32:57.280] that bothered you.
[01:32:57.280 --> 01:32:58.720] No, it wasn't the email at 5 p.m.
[01:32:58.720 --> 01:33:02.600] that bothered you, it was the fact that you were just accumulating stress, stress, stress, emotional debt.
[01:33:02.600 --> 01:33:07.240] So by the time you read that email, you were past your window tolerance.
[01:33:07.240 --> 01:33:07.960] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:33:07.960 --> 01:33:17.640] I mean, it's funny, as you were saying that, I like, I kind of, even without thinking about it, I noticed I brought my awareness down to my pelvis and I felt it's like, oh, there's like, I was holding tension in my lower back, like, even just from this.
[01:33:17.800 --> 01:33:28.200] And also, something that people don't like to talk about is cosmetically, we have been taught, whether consciously or unconsciously, to hold our tummies in.
[01:33:28.280 --> 01:33:29.080] To have a flat belly.
[01:33:29.080 --> 01:33:29.400] Yeah.
[01:33:29.400 --> 01:33:29.640] Yeah.
[01:33:30.040 --> 01:33:36.680] So people walking around terrible for movement, terrible for your pelvic floor, terrible for stress.
[01:33:37.080 --> 01:33:43.480] But I think people have been conditioned, myself included, for many years, so much that we don't even realize when we're doing it.
[01:33:43.480 --> 01:33:48.360] So we need to bring this kind of conscious awareness to, don't hold your belly in, don't hold your belly in.
[01:33:48.920 --> 01:33:49.640] Do you know what I mean?
[01:33:50.200 --> 01:33:50.760] It's everywhere.
[01:33:50.760 --> 01:33:54.040] It's like, you know, you mentioned top down, bottom up, but also the environment.
[01:33:54.040 --> 01:34:01.560] Well, that's the environmental conditioning teaching so many of us to hold tension in our bodies by holding our tummies in.
[01:34:01.560 --> 01:34:02.200] No, completely.
[01:34:02.200 --> 01:34:18.360] And there's also another kind of interesting anecdotal correlation I've noticed is once people start to be able to bring awareness and breath down into the pelvic floor and in the bellies, there's a sense of, there's a like an embodied sense of safety, which doesn't make sense unless you've actually experienced it.
[01:34:18.360 --> 01:34:29.560] But there's something about releasing tension there and bringing breath and like and presence down there that creates a sense of, I think it's like a sense of grounded safety that people self-report.
[01:34:29.560 --> 01:34:38.840] And then from that place of safety, you can move through the world making less fear-based kind of predictions and decisions.
[01:34:38.840 --> 01:34:39.400] Yeah.
[01:34:40.680 --> 01:34:54.160] I love Johnny observing societal trends and trying to sit back and go, what does this societal trend tell us about the state of society?
[01:34:54.160 --> 01:34:54.720] Okay.
[01:34:55.360 --> 01:35:06.480] So I've got a couple of questions that have just come up for me that I want to put to you about what these trends tell us about the state of our nervous systems.
[01:35:06.800 --> 01:35:07.280] Okay.
[01:35:07.840 --> 01:35:12.560] There's more and more people now intentionally embracing the cold, right?
[01:35:12.560 --> 01:35:14.400] Cold plunge, cold showers.
[01:35:14.400 --> 01:35:16.640] We've spoken about that today a little bit.
[01:35:17.440 --> 01:35:26.080] What do you think that growing trend of cold plunges tells us about the state of societal nervous systems, if anything?
[01:35:28.000 --> 01:35:29.520] Yeah, interesting.
[01:35:29.840 --> 01:35:41.360] If I was to kind of hazard a guess, I think there's a lot of people that feel in some way like numb to their lives and to the world.
[01:35:41.360 --> 01:35:48.800] And my guess is that many people are looking for experiences that help them to feel alive.
[01:35:49.120 --> 01:36:02.320] And I think that freezing cold water is an incredibly efficient mechanism for creating a like undeniable sense of aliveness in the body, even if it's only for a short period of time.
[01:36:02.320 --> 01:36:13.200] And my guess is that that would be part of it, you know, beyond the kind of health benefits and there's a kind of like bravado and like kind of power that comes from it as well.
[01:36:13.200 --> 01:36:22.800] But I think for me at least there's part of the draw, is there's there's a sense of aliveness and also a sense of like empowerment.
[01:36:22.800 --> 01:36:31.400] I think a lot of people feel like they are going back to what we were talking about earlier, they're kind of victims of the world of reality in different ways.
[01:36:31.640 --> 01:36:44.760] And by learning how to overcome the intensity of the reaction to the cold and to be able to sit with it, if they can do that in the cold, then they can do it in other areas of life as well.
[01:36:44.760 --> 01:36:47.480] And so, I think there's probably a combination of those two.
[01:36:47.800 --> 01:36:53.400] The growing rise of coffee shops and cafe culture.
[01:36:53.400 --> 01:36:58.120] What does our caffeine consumption say about the state of our nervous system?
[01:36:58.280 --> 01:37:14.840] Yeah, I love the taste of coffee myself, and I've so I have nothing against coffee, but I will say that when there's caffeine in our system, it creates, it releases hormones which actually make it more difficult to feel our interoceptive sensations.
[01:37:14.840 --> 01:37:21.960] There's a way in which the adrenaline and the cortisol and things they numb our bodies.
[01:37:21.960 --> 01:37:36.440] And so, my sense is that, as well as the kind of drive towards productivity and getting stuff done, and all the reasons people take coffee, I think that there's a way in which it also numbs us somewhat against what we're experiencing moment to moment.
[01:37:36.840 --> 01:37:44.840] And people will notice that, like, if maybe if they stop taking coffee, they might start to feel things again that maybe they've been not wanting to feel for a while.
[01:37:44.840 --> 01:37:45.800] Yeah, it's interesting.
[01:37:45.800 --> 01:37:54.760] I love a cup of coffee as much as the next person, but if I'm drinking too much, I just feel it all going up into my head.
[01:37:54.760 --> 01:38:01.960] Not the coffee, I feel I experience the world much more through my head and I'm less grounded.
[01:38:01.960 --> 01:38:02.680] Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[01:38:03.240 --> 01:38:13.080] And I think I could be wrong, maybe it's my childhood memory, but I don't think there was this kind of epidemic of coffee shops.
[01:38:13.080 --> 01:38:16.960] Now, to be clear, I love a coffee shop as much as the next person, right?
[01:38:17.280 --> 01:38:26.400] At the same time, I do think it says something about the state of society: you know, go, go, go, productivity, you know, no resting, pushing through.
[01:38:26.400 --> 01:38:41.280] And then what I also think many of us do is that we lean on epidemiological studies showing that coffee consumption is associated with lower risk of Alzheimer's and you know, a whole host of other things, lower risk of type 2 diabetes.
[01:38:41.680 --> 01:38:47.520] And for many people, that is a license to drink more than actually is good for us and our nervous system.
[01:38:47.520 --> 01:39:03.680] So whilst I acknowledge those studies, and I don't inherently think there's anything wrong with caffeine in balance with the rest of your lifestyle and your nervous system, I do think for many people, they've got fried nervous systems.
[01:39:03.680 --> 01:39:05.760] They're not resting and switching off enough.
[01:39:05.760 --> 01:39:08.880] They've accumulated a ton of emotional debts, right?
[01:39:08.880 --> 01:39:11.120] They don't feel their emotions.
[01:39:11.120 --> 01:39:15.120] And they're using caffeine to allow them to keep going.
[01:39:15.120 --> 01:39:16.160] Yeah, it's that.
[01:39:16.160 --> 01:39:24.800] And I would add something else to this as well, which is that people learn to feel safe in that stimulated state.
[01:39:24.800 --> 01:39:25.200] Yeah.
[01:39:25.200 --> 01:39:31.280] And that actually starting to rest and downshift feels unsafe in their system.
[01:39:31.280 --> 01:39:37.200] And often, when they begin to, it will start to bring up some of those, again, like things that don't feel good.
[01:39:37.200 --> 01:39:43.360] Or, um, and then they will find another way to kind of stay stimulated to avoid actually deeply resting.
[01:39:43.360 --> 01:39:43.840] Yeah.
[01:39:43.840 --> 01:39:47.360] I mean, I'm experiencing a version of that at the moment, right?
[01:39:47.360 --> 01:39:55.920] I'm on the back of a, you know, a busy and outward-focusing six to eight months with book launch and national tour.
[01:39:55.920 --> 01:39:56.960] It's all been great, right?
[01:39:56.960 --> 01:40:01.320] I want to experience life and see how I respond in different scenarios.
[01:40:01.480 --> 01:40:09.560] At the same time, I would say one of my crutches when I've got a lot on tends to be coffee.
[01:40:09.800 --> 01:40:24.680] If I'm being completely honest with myself, I know that my intake has just crept up a little bit over the last few months in a way that's not fully in balance with my nervous system, or nor is it in balance with the person I want to be.
[01:40:25.240 --> 01:40:27.640] And it's funny when you said that.
[01:40:27.800 --> 01:40:32.360] I think sometimes I can totally recognize that where you have it.
[01:40:32.360 --> 01:40:34.200] And then you feel a bit more stimulated.
[01:40:34.200 --> 01:40:37.240] So you're like, oh, this is my safe space because it's where I've been for the last few months.
[01:40:37.240 --> 01:40:37.960] Yeah, totally.
[01:40:37.960 --> 01:40:45.000] And it's almost leaning into that discomfort of going, no, well, yeah, you might feel a bit fatigued, but that's okay.
[01:40:45.000 --> 01:40:48.280] You don't necessarily need to caffeinate your fatigue every time.
[01:40:48.280 --> 01:40:51.160] It's okay to experience tiredness, right?
[01:40:51.160 --> 01:40:54.040] And not be in that stimulated state, which I don't know.
[01:40:54.040 --> 01:40:55.320] I find it quite interesting.
[01:40:55.320 --> 01:40:55.640] Yeah.
[01:40:55.640 --> 01:40:57.560] No, I think it's fascinating.
[01:40:57.560 --> 01:41:04.760] And the key thing that I want to kind of maybe for listeners to take away is it's great to be in those states.
[01:41:04.760 --> 01:41:07.880] I mean, you've just done like a UK tour, you've been on stage.
[01:41:07.880 --> 01:41:17.080] Like that is kind of the peak of, I'd say, like a healthy, sympathetic state where you need to be activated to be on stage and to give a performance.
[01:41:17.080 --> 01:41:23.400] But what is key is, so we haven't really talked about this, but I think about capacity and resilience.
[01:41:23.400 --> 01:41:29.720] Capacity is how grounded can you stay even when there's like intensity moving through your system.
[01:41:29.720 --> 01:41:32.600] And being on stage and doing a live show is a good example.
[01:41:32.600 --> 01:41:37.240] But then resilience is how efficiently, how effectively can you downshift?
[01:41:37.240 --> 01:41:42.440] And that's the skill that I think most people are missing and kind of need to actively train.
[01:41:42.440 --> 01:41:49.120] And so I'm a big fan of NSDR, which Shuberman has popularized, non-sleep, deep rest, yoga nidra.
[01:41:49.520 --> 01:41:54.240] There's many different ways of doing it, but learning how to go from that activated state.
[01:41:54.240 --> 01:42:00.480] And it's almost like the more activated you are, you need to be equally deeply resting.
[01:42:00.480 --> 01:42:09.760] So if you've been go, go, go for kind of like two or three months, you'll need to have a period of time where you're like deeply resting and recovering for almost an equal period of time.
[01:42:09.760 --> 01:42:12.400] Because we're like cyclical beings.
[01:42:12.400 --> 01:42:16.720] And it's great to be able to kind of show up with that intensity.
[01:42:16.720 --> 01:42:20.960] But if you don't also rest with that same intensity, it will become burnout over time.
[01:42:21.600 --> 01:42:26.560] I just, an image pops into my mind of the Olympic athlete who was on the horse.
[01:42:26.560 --> 01:42:32.800] And before he went to perform and won a gold medal, he was literally asleep, like minutes before he was about to perform.
[01:42:32.800 --> 01:42:43.680] And we think about like athletes know that recovery is just like crucial to their performance, but we don't really think about it as like cognitive athletes or podcast hosts.
[01:42:43.680 --> 01:42:48.720] Like we need to prioritize recovery as much as we're prioritizing performance.
[01:42:48.720 --> 01:42:49.760] Yeah, it's so interesting.
[01:42:49.760 --> 01:42:56.400] Just to make it really practical for people though, who maybe don't have as much autonomy with their life or their job, right?
[01:42:56.720 --> 01:42:59.280] This is what Sundays used to be for people.
[01:42:59.280 --> 01:42:59.920] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:42:59.920 --> 01:43:00.240] Right?
[01:43:00.240 --> 01:43:00.640] Yeah.
[01:43:00.640 --> 01:43:04.000] Sundays before all the shops were open, before internet shopping.
[01:43:04.320 --> 01:43:05.200] Social media.
[01:43:05.200 --> 01:43:05.520] Yeah.
[01:43:05.520 --> 01:43:10.480] You know, Sundays, I remember, I'm sure it was saying for you growing up as a kid, you know, Sundays, nothing much happens.
[01:43:10.480 --> 01:43:12.160] It was formerly one on the television.
[01:43:12.240 --> 01:43:15.520] It was like, it might be a football match of the day special.
[01:43:15.520 --> 01:43:17.200] Like, go for a walk in the park.
[01:43:17.200 --> 01:43:18.480] Supermarkets were shut.
[01:43:18.480 --> 01:43:18.960] Yeah.
[01:43:18.960 --> 01:43:20.160] Like, you couldn't do so.
[01:43:20.240 --> 01:43:26.560] There was enforced family time and chill out time into that seven-day cycle.
[01:43:26.560 --> 01:43:33.800] I think that's one of the most toxic things about the modern world is how those natural rest periods have just been obliterated.
[01:43:34.120 --> 01:43:47.480] I mean coming back to societal trends, I think that the ability to set boundaries is now such an essential skill because you need to now like actively design that into your life.
[01:43:47.480 --> 01:43:57.240] Because if you're just passive and you don't have some degree of intentionality, you will just be in this perpetual like go, go, go activated state because there's always going to be more stimulation coming towards you.
[01:43:57.240 --> 01:44:03.800] You really have to kind of protect your spaces, your time on an hourly level, daily level, weekly, monthly level.
[01:44:04.680 --> 01:44:07.160] It's a practice on all scales of time, I think.
[01:44:07.160 --> 01:44:07.720] Yeah.
[01:44:08.040 --> 01:44:09.480] Johnny, I love talking to you.
[01:44:09.800 --> 01:44:13.320] I really think what you're doing is incredible.
[01:44:13.320 --> 01:44:19.000] I think you've got a very unique take on the nervous system and how we can start to tackle it.
[01:44:19.560 --> 01:44:21.640] You've got two things, don't you, out there for people.
[01:44:21.640 --> 01:44:24.680] You've got the nervous system mastery course, that five-week course.
[01:44:25.320 --> 01:44:29.160] And you've got the NSQ, the nervous system quotients, right?
[01:44:29.400 --> 01:44:34.440] Can you just talk us through what those things are and how people who want to learn more from you can access them?
[01:44:34.440 --> 01:44:35.160] Yeah, totally.
[01:44:35.160 --> 01:44:46.120] So the NSQ was basically my attempt to design a self-assessment that gives people a sense of like benchmarks of where their nervous system is at in these kind of four categories that we've been talking about.
[01:44:46.200 --> 01:44:47.400] So like a score for your nervous system.
[01:44:47.480 --> 01:44:48.280] Yeah, you literally get a score.
[01:44:48.280 --> 01:44:50.600] You get a score out of 100 in these different areas.
[01:44:50.600 --> 01:44:53.080] And some are green, some might be orange.
[01:44:53.080 --> 01:44:59.880] And then we've designed it so that you'll get kind of practices designed to help improve the lowest areas through kind of email.
[01:44:59.880 --> 01:45:01.240] And it's all totally free as well.
[01:45:01.240 --> 01:45:03.080] So, how can people do that if they want to do it?
[01:45:03.080 --> 01:45:07.080] So, if they go to the website, it's nsmastery.com.
[01:45:07.080 --> 01:45:08.760] So, NS standing for nervous system.
[01:45:08.760 --> 01:45:09.000] Exactly.
[01:45:09.080 --> 01:45:10.760] Okay, nsmastery.com.
[01:45:10.760 --> 01:45:14.200] And in the top right, I think is the self-assessment button.
[01:45:14.200 --> 01:45:19.040] And then, if people are interested, there's more information about the five-week cohort of nervous system mastery.
[01:45:19.120 --> 01:45:27.840] That's when we go into all of the stuff we've been talking about: interception, self-regulation, emotional fluidity, in a kind of community-based approach.
[01:45:27.840 --> 01:45:32.640] So, there's live cohorts, live sessions, guest speakers as well.
[01:45:32.640 --> 01:45:45.040] And yeah, it's my attempt to really distill all of the practices we've been talking about in a kind of actionable, kind of condensed way that is also compatible with people's busy life.
[01:45:45.040 --> 01:45:51.520] So, we have like founders, CEOs, parents, you know, all kinds of people from all over the world take it.
[01:45:51.520 --> 01:45:54.320] I mean, who doesn't want a better nervous system, right?
[01:45:54.320 --> 01:45:55.760] A more balanced nervous system?
[01:45:55.920 --> 01:45:57.520] I'm biased, but I would agree.
[01:45:57.520 --> 01:46:03.120] Yeah, it's kind of a universal skill, I think, most of us would like to master at some point.
[01:46:03.120 --> 01:46:14.400] I, you know, if you really think about life and the nervous system, you know, it really is the master control switch of how we view the world, how we experience the world, isn't it?
[01:46:14.400 --> 01:46:14.880] Yeah, yeah.
[01:46:15.040 --> 01:46:25.360] And I guess not enough people are paying attention to what their nervous system is doing, so they feel in that reactive mode all the time, thinking that that's the only way to exist.
[01:46:25.360 --> 01:46:28.320] Yeah, and I mean, we just weren't taught these things growing up.
[01:46:28.320 --> 01:46:32.880] Like, I wasn't, you know, I only found out about it in the last like 10 years or so.
[01:46:32.880 --> 01:46:37.600] But I mean, imagine if these practices were in schools or taught by parents or taught by young people.
[01:46:37.600 --> 01:46:40.080] There'd be less like unlearning that has to happen.
[01:46:41.040 --> 01:46:43.200] Yeah, well, I think what you're doing is incredible.
[01:46:44.800 --> 01:46:58.000] You know, for someone who has been listening to this conversation, Johnny, and they're like, okay, I've not really paid much attention to my nervous system, but I'm definitely someone who's stuck in my head.
[01:46:58.000 --> 01:47:02.840] And when I first heard Johnny say, Where am I feeling that in my body?
[01:47:02.840 --> 01:47:05.000] I didn't have a clue what he was talking about, right?
[01:46:59.840 --> 01:47:07.080] Hopefully, they understand it now.
[01:47:07.080 --> 01:47:17.160] You've mentioned a variety of different practices, but for that person who's never felt what it's like to be in their body and they want to start, what would you say to them?
[01:47:18.680 --> 01:47:22.120] Yeah, I would say just start super simple.
[01:47:22.920 --> 01:47:36.680] Kind of first thing in the morning before you check your phone, kind of sometime between waking up and leaving the house, just set a timer for five minutes and do what I call an interceptive weather report.
[01:47:36.680 --> 01:47:40.760] So, just like an internal check-in of like, how is my mind?
[01:47:40.920 --> 01:47:49.400] Busy thoughts, like stories about things, how is my awareness, how is my posture, do I feel tired?
[01:47:49.400 --> 01:47:51.480] Do I feel energized?
[01:47:51.480 --> 01:47:53.560] And then, like, what is the kind of what is the mood?
[01:47:53.560 --> 01:47:55.480] Is there like an emotional tone?
[01:47:55.480 --> 01:47:57.720] Am I noticing any sensations?
[01:47:58.040 --> 01:48:04.200] And even just that kind of brief check-in on a daily basis will compound over time.
[01:48:04.200 --> 01:48:14.280] And you will start to gradually be more aware of what is happening internally when you're going about your day, maybe when you're stressed out, maybe if challenging things arise.
[01:48:14.280 --> 01:48:19.880] And it really just is a practice that gets way, way, way easier over time.
[01:48:20.520 --> 01:48:29.400] What's interesting for me is that you don't actually have to do anything with the things that you notice, you're just noticing.
[01:48:29.400 --> 01:48:29.800] Exactly.
[01:48:29.800 --> 01:48:30.200] Yeah.
[01:48:30.200 --> 01:48:39.480] And I think that's quite a key point for people to really understand.
[01:48:39.480 --> 01:48:47.440] It's okay if you're feeling tight or you're feeling sad, but what you're asking people is to train the awareness that that's what's going on.
[01:48:44.840 --> 01:48:48.480] Exactly, exactly.
[01:48:48.800 --> 01:48:56.560] And this is, we haven't talked about this distinction, but there's this idea of self-unfoldment versus self-improvement.
[01:48:56.560 --> 01:49:03.360] And self-improvement often comes from this premise of there is something in me that is broken or that needs fixing.
[01:49:03.360 --> 01:49:06.560] Whereas self-unfoldment is like the impale.
[01:49:06.560 --> 01:49:10.240] It's just like allowing whatever is coming up to be there.
[01:49:10.240 --> 01:49:22.080] And I really think like having this frame of self-unfoldment is so, so helpful for people because, you know, things like this check-in, it's just welcoming and allowing whatever is arising.
[01:49:22.080 --> 01:49:26.560] Maybe you're tired, maybe you are angry at something, maybe you're frustrated, maybe the sadness.
[01:49:26.560 --> 01:49:27.680] And that's all great.
[01:49:27.680 --> 01:49:28.960] That's all welcome.
[01:49:29.200 --> 01:49:42.560] But the more that you can tune in and listen to the feedback and the data of your body, the more in tune you can be and the more regulated and intentional you can kind of show up for what's important to you.
[01:49:42.560 --> 01:49:45.840] Helping us all experience the full breadth of human emotions.
[01:49:45.840 --> 01:49:46.320] Exactly.
[01:49:46.320 --> 01:49:48.560] Johnny Miller, thank you so much for coming on the show.
[01:49:48.560 --> 01:49:49.280] Thank you so much.
[01:49:49.280 --> 01:49:51.760] This has been just such a pleasure.
[01:49:55.280 --> 01:49:57.920] Really hope you enjoyed that conversation.
[01:49:57.920 --> 01:50:03.680] Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life.
[01:50:03.680 --> 01:50:08.640] And also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else.
[01:50:08.640 --> 01:50:16.400] Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information.
[01:50:16.400 --> 01:50:19.760] Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday 5.
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