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[00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:04.320] Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman and you're listening to Science Versus.
[00:00:05.600 --> 00:00:09.280] Today on the show, methamphetamine.
[00:00:13.120 --> 00:00:23.040] More and more people in the US are trying it, and it's got this reputation as being one of the scariest and most addictive drugs out there.
[00:00:23.040 --> 00:00:25.280] Is that true?
[00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:34.720] I feel like basically every message that we get about meth is that it's this uniquely dangerous drug, almost in a category of its own.
[00:00:34.720 --> 00:00:42.080] Like in this government PSA, you see a normal teenager whose life is ruined by it.
[00:00:42.080 --> 00:00:45.040] I wish my tire had blown out that night.
[00:00:45.360 --> 00:00:48.080] I wish my car had skidded off the road.
[00:00:48.720 --> 00:00:52.320] I wish I'd broken my neck, but I didn't crash.
[00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:56.480] I drove to that party and I did meth for the first time.
[00:00:56.800 --> 00:01:00.080] I did meth, and now this is my life.
[00:01:00.400 --> 00:01:01.920] And that's the idea, right?
[00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:08.400] That meth is so addictive that if you try it just once at a party, you won't be able to stop.
[00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:11.920] And in the meantime, it'll destroy your life.
[00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:16.720] We hear that meth will rot your gums, make your teeth fall out.
[00:01:16.720 --> 00:01:19.200] I mean, ever heard of meth mouth?
[00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:24.800] And even worse, apparently after using meth, your brain will never be the same again.
[00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:26.960] Some people, they just lose it.
[00:01:26.960 --> 00:01:28.000] Stop looking at it!
[00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:42.720] Research shows that taking methamphetamine, even just a few times, can impair your brain and movement for life, life, life, life, life, life, life, life, life, life.
[00:01:43.360 --> 00:01:49.920] And I should say that not all meth PSAs went for the scare the hell out of you approach.
[00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:58.080] I do have to play this bonkers ad that my editor remembers hearing a lot when she grew up in the Midwest.
[00:01:58.080 --> 00:02:01.080] Look at me, busy as a bee.
[00:02:01.080 --> 00:02:03.720] Where'd I get all this energy?
[00:02:03.720 --> 00:02:06.440] Oh, meth, mm, meth.
[00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:14.840] But even this busy bee who's frantically cleaning her house with a toothbrush ends up in bad shape.
[00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:24.760] And if all that wasn't bad enough, watching the news, it seems like we're in a meth epidemic with this super addictive drug only getting more powerful.
[00:02:24.760 --> 00:02:29.880] This month, the New York Times wrote that meth is more dangerous than ever.
[00:02:29.880 --> 00:02:35.880] We are in the midst of a crisis when it comes to methamphetamine.
[00:02:36.200 --> 00:02:39.080] It's more destructive than any other drug.
[00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:43.480] Law enforcers are starting to see the emergence of super-powered versions of meth.
[00:02:43.480 --> 00:02:48.280] Experts say it's more lethal and it causes extreme psychosis.
[00:02:48.600 --> 00:02:58.600] But something here doesn't quite add up because as scientists kept telling me, meth is an FDA-approved drug.
[00:02:58.600 --> 00:02:59.640] Did you know this?
[00:02:59.640 --> 00:03:05.880] In the US, it's used to treat ADHD and it can be given to people six years and older.
[00:03:05.880 --> 00:03:06.600] Children.
[00:03:06.600 --> 00:03:09.000] We're giving meth to children.
[00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:17.320] So today on the show, is meth really this horrendously bad drug where one hit will get you so addicted it'll ruin your life?
[00:03:17.640 --> 00:03:21.880] What exactly does meth do to our brain and our body?
[00:03:21.880 --> 00:03:28.920] When it comes to meth, there's a lot of and then there's science.
[00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:35.000] Science versus meth is coming up just after the break.
[00:03:41.720 --> 00:03:44.440] This episode is brought to you by KPMG.
[00:03:44.440 --> 00:03:50.960] Science helps shape how KPMG views transformation, but it's their people who make it real.
[00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:59.680] They help clients visualize data, understand how consumers think, and use AI to craft emotionally resonant experiences.
[00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:07.440] Because while they keep the science of business in mind, it's their people who think differently to solve complex problems.
[00:04:07.440 --> 00:04:13.680] Go to kpmg.com/slash uslash science to learn more.
[00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:17.520] KPMG, make the difference.
[00:04:19.440 --> 00:04:22.000] This episode is brought to you by Indeed.
[00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:24.800] Taking things slow isn't always a good thing.
[00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:29.360] Sometimes you need to speed things along, like when your toilet breaks down.
[00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:33.280] You got to get that plumber in quickly, or you're going to be in trouble.
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[00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:56.960] That's indeed.com/slash science on.
[00:04:56.960 --> 00:04:58.640] Terms and conditions apply.
[00:04:58.640 --> 00:05:01.280] Hiring indeed is all you need.
[00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:07.920] Welcome back today on the show, meth.
[00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:15.280] So, right off the bat here, there's this idea that the new meth on the street is like meth on steroids.
[00:05:15.280 --> 00:05:21.200] It's sometimes called super meth, and headlines are screaming that it's a monster.
[00:05:21.200 --> 00:05:23.680] It's actually not a new drug.
[00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:25.680] Meth is still meth.
[00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:29.120] But for a while now, it's been produced in a different way.
[00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:32.600] And a big thing is that it's cut with less crap.
[00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:44.600] An analysis of meth samples in the US done by the Drug Enforcement Administration found that in the late 90s, the purity of meth that you'd buy on the street was about 20%.
[00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:47.400] Fast forward more than 20 years.
[00:05:47.400 --> 00:05:52.360] On average, it's almost 97% pure.
[00:05:52.360 --> 00:05:55.800] That is Walter White-level pure.
[00:05:56.120 --> 00:06:01.160] So now, let's find out what meth, just meth, is doing to our brain.
[00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:05.640] And I really wanted to understand just what it felt like to take meth.
[00:06:05.640 --> 00:06:14.520] So I reached out to our listeners who had tried it and had these awesome conversations about the highs and the lows of using meth.
[00:06:14.520 --> 00:06:18.360] So here's how they described what meth can feel like.
[00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:23.640] Meth makes your whole body kind of tingly instantly in like a nice way.
[00:06:23.640 --> 00:06:25.160] Almost like glistening.
[00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:27.000] Almost like Edward in Twilight.
[00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:29.320] You know, he's in the sun and he's just like kind of glistening.
[00:06:29.320 --> 00:06:31.080] That's kind of how you feel on meth.
[00:06:31.080 --> 00:06:33.480] And I felt very on alert.
[00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:36.120] I, you know, everything was sort of heightened.
[00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:40.520] I was wide awake, probably not blinking as much as a regular person.
[00:06:40.520 --> 00:06:56.360] I remember just being like really horny, really horny, you know, wanting to be like touched and like kissed and like, you know, all of this like really intense kind of like feeling of like me wanting to be with this guy in every and any way possible.
[00:06:56.360 --> 00:07:02.440] Oh wow, like it just felt like it unlocked everything, every pathway in my head.
[00:07:02.440 --> 00:07:05.480] I remember feeling socially perfect.
[00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:07.160] No anxiety.
[00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:10.360] It just makes like all of your best parts better.
[00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:14.440] It feels like it's just turning on the happy in your head.
[00:07:18.640 --> 00:07:21.520] So, how can meth make you feel this way?
[00:07:21.520 --> 00:07:24.320] Turn on the happy in your head.
[00:07:24.320 --> 00:07:30.960] I talked about this with Professor Martin Paulis, scientific director at the Laureate Institute for Brain Research.
[00:07:30.960 --> 00:07:33.440] And he loves studying meth.
[00:07:33.440 --> 00:07:36.000] He loves watching TV shows about meth.
[00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:37.680] Breaking Bad is my favorite show.
[00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:38.800] Really?
[00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:39.360] Yeah, yeah.
[00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:39.760] Oh, yeah.
[00:07:40.320 --> 00:07:41.440] I love the show.
[00:07:41.440 --> 00:07:46.080] We actually have a paper that has the subtitle, I'm the Danger.
[00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:53.840] So Martin told me that meth releases a bunch of chemicals into our brain, like adrenaline and serotonin.
[00:07:53.840 --> 00:07:59.440] But a biggie is dopamine, which is kind of like the feel-good chemical.
[00:07:59.760 --> 00:08:06.240] And meth does this pretty cool stuff to get dopamine really working in your brain.
[00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:14.400] It essentially makes a drop of dopamine seem like it's an ocean of dopamine.
[00:08:14.400 --> 00:08:18.720] Normally, what happens when you do nice things that bump up your dopamine?
[00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:24.880] Not meth, but let's say you have a little sex, you eat a little chocolate, you get a little dopamine hit.
[00:08:24.880 --> 00:08:30.880] And so the dopamine system turns up the knob a little bit and you say, oh, wow, you know, this is really, this is really something.
[00:08:30.880 --> 00:08:37.600] Time passes, and then the dopamine is sucked back up into the nerve cell and it's basically gone, right?
[00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:39.920] And so that you get the little boop and it's gone.
[00:08:39.920 --> 00:08:48.800] What methamphetamine does is it floods parts of your brain with dopamine, but then it stops that sucking up.
[00:08:48.800 --> 00:08:57.040] And the fact that then the it stops it getting sucked back, so the dopamine will hang around for longer as well.
[00:08:57.040 --> 00:08:58.400] That's right, that's right, yeah.
[00:08:58.640 --> 00:09:05.080] And so literally, you get this flood of dopamine that comes out of nowhere, and everything seems like great.
[00:09:05.400 --> 00:09:11.160] People who, even the first time they do meth, they say it's like 100 times an orgasm.
[00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:21.400] Studies in rats have found that meth increases dopamine in a part of their brain by more than a thousand percent.
[00:09:21.400 --> 00:09:27.080] Compare that to cocaine, which bumped up dopamine by a measly 350%.
[00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:30.200] Meth also crosses the blood-brain barrier really quickly.
[00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:35.480] So if you're snorting, injecting, or smoking it, it means you can get high super fast.
[00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:41.560] Plus, that high can last for hours, some eight times longer than Coke.
[00:09:41.560 --> 00:09:47.720] So that is part of the reason that meth can give you this incredible high, because it's flooding your brain with dopamine.
[00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:56.120] Dopamine also helps you focus and pay attention to things, which is why a little bit of meth can work as a medication for ADHD.
[00:09:56.440 --> 00:10:06.440] But feeling that huge happy in your head, it doesn't last forever because, like other drugs, your brain builds up a tolerance.
[00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:11.560] Dopamine works by binding to all these little receptors on your brain cells.
[00:10:11.560 --> 00:10:17.640] But as you keep using meth, your brain takes some of those receptors away.
[00:10:17.640 --> 00:10:20.600] So here's Martin, our neuroscientist again.
[00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:28.520] So you get the dopamine, but there's nobody listening on the other side, or fewer receptors listening.
[00:10:28.520 --> 00:10:32.120] So you don't get the same effect after a while, right?
[00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:40.920] It's no longer like this roof, this incredible hit, but now it's like a little poof.
[00:10:40.920 --> 00:10:47.920] So that is why you might not keep twinkling as bright as a teen heartthrob when you keep using meth.
[00:10:49.040 --> 00:10:52.720] But then our next question is: what are the risks here?
[00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:57.440] Because people say that meth can break your brain in all kinds of ways.
[00:10:57.440 --> 00:11:04.560] And one thing that a lot of our listeners were worried about who had used meth was how the drug had affected their memory.
[00:11:04.560 --> 00:11:12.480] And it is true that when you're using a lot of meth, or soon after you stop, it can screw with your cognition and memory.
[00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:17.840] One paper said it was similar to what you might see in folks with alcohol use disorder.
[00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:23.520] You can even see abnormalities popping up in brain scans of heavy meth users.
[00:11:23.520 --> 00:11:34.400] Now, it's not that noticeable or bad for everyone, but one guy I spoke to who asked us to call him enough, he's used meth pretty much every day for the last four years.
[00:11:34.400 --> 00:11:38.480] He told me that these days his memory is shot.
[00:11:38.800 --> 00:11:41.520] Everything in the past is not really there.
[00:11:41.520 --> 00:11:43.200] It's just fog and haze.
[00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:47.840] And like even like one of my work best friends, I can't even remember how we met.
[00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:49.280] And I had to tell her that the other day.
[00:11:49.280 --> 00:11:51.840] Like, I really don't remember how we met.
[00:11:52.800 --> 00:12:06.320] But what a lot of the scary meth news articles out there don't tell you is that if you stop using meth, your brain can at least partly recover.
[00:12:06.640 --> 00:12:20.320] Studies show that even after long-term heavy use, once users stay off meth for, let's say, six months, a year, their scores on cognitive tests improve, including their memory.
[00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:25.840] Over time, some areas of the brain itself even start to look more normal.
[00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:29.120] Martin told me that this is good news here.
[00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:35.800] The point being is there's enormous regenerative capacity in the brain.
[00:12:35.800 --> 00:12:41.320] I mean, there are limitations, but there's a tremendous amount of regeneration that can happen.
[00:12:41.640 --> 00:12:45.240] In the longer term, there are some other things to worry about, though.
[00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:52.920] Like meth might put you at an increased risk of Parkinson's disease, which is a disease related to dopamine.
[00:12:53.240 --> 00:13:06.520] But the big thing that you hear a lot about when it comes to meth is that it'll make you go basically psycho, where you start seeing things and hearing things.
[00:13:06.520 --> 00:13:14.360] One of our listeners, she asked me to call her Tina, started off just taking meth with friends to go dancing on the weekend.
[00:13:14.360 --> 00:13:21.560] She'd party all weekend on this big binge, and on her way home, sometimes she'd start to see things.
[00:13:21.560 --> 00:13:32.760] What would happen is when I was driving home, out of my peripheral vision, I would swear that I saw someone walking up out of the woods and like walking towards the road.
[00:13:32.760 --> 00:13:38.200] And then, as soon as you shift your vision over and you look directly at them, they're gone because they were never there in the first place.
[00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:40.760] But yeah, I saw many shadow people.
[00:13:40.760 --> 00:13:42.920] Did you have any other hallucinations?
[00:13:42.920 --> 00:13:43.960] Oh, yeah.
[00:13:45.400 --> 00:13:51.160] There's a video of me somewhere that a friend took trying to catch bugs.
[00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:53.000] They were not there.
[00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:55.000] There were no bugs there.
[00:13:57.240 --> 00:14:00.200] For another listener, we'll call him Theo.
[00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:08.680] After he was using meth for a couple of years, when he was high, he would get into this really creepy headspace.
[00:14:08.680 --> 00:14:12.360] You know, I couldn't leave the house or drive because I was so paranoid.
[00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:16.720] You know, I had like blankets covering all of my windows, and I would just like stand there.
[00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:17.280] Why?
[00:14:17.280 --> 00:14:21.600] Because in my mind, I like knew somebody was out there watching me.
[00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:23.200] You know, I don't know who it is.
[00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:25.120] Maybe it's the cops, or I don't know.
[00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:30.080] And I would hear voices, I would hear my neighbors talking shit about me, and I'd be like, oh my God.
[00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:36.240] And, you know, I would turn my phone off and like turn electronics off because I knew there was like trackers and everything.
[00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:40.480] And it was so intense and it was just so dark.
[00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:48.320] Collectively, all of these symptoms, hallucinating, getting paranoid, this is all called meth-associated psychosis.
[00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:53.360] And researchers say that it can look indistinguishable from schizophrenia.
[00:14:53.360 --> 00:15:03.440] And I called up Jennifer Scheer, a neuroscientist who did her PhD on this at the University of Cape Town in South Africa to find out why it happens.
[00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:09.280] And she told me something that most scientists studying meth didn't tell me.
[00:15:09.280 --> 00:15:10.720] I love myth.
[00:15:11.040 --> 00:15:13.600] Like, I really, really enjoy it.
[00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:14.800] Have you tried it?
[00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:16.240] Yes, I have.
[00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:17.440] I have tried it.
[00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:22.080] Like, I totally understand why, like, somebody loves that drug.
[00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:27.840] Jen used to go to these dance parties in South Africa and she tried meth a handful of times.
[00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:32.400] How much were you thinking about your own experience as you were writing these studies?
[00:15:32.560 --> 00:15:33.280] All the time.
[00:15:33.280 --> 00:15:34.400] All the time.
[00:15:34.400 --> 00:15:39.200] Yeah, whenever it says, like, oh, euphoric experience, I'm like, uh-huh.
[00:15:41.760 --> 00:15:46.800] Did you worry about your brain as you were writing about all this neurotoxicity?
[00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:58.240] I mean, yeah, there were times where, like, you know, when you get really stuck and you can't think yourself out of a hole, like, oh, maybe I took too much.
[00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:00.000] Like, oh, did I f my brain up?
[00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:02.680] So I can't finish this thesis now.
[00:16:04.280 --> 00:16:05.880] Jen's joking here.
[00:16:05.880 --> 00:16:17.720] She was actually never that worried that taking a bit of meth a handful of times would stop her from finishing her thesis, largely because of that research that shows the brain can recover.
[00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:22.440] Anyway, we got to talking about why meth can cause psychosis.
[00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:28.120] And she told me that some of what's going on here is probably from sleep deprivation.
[00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:35.720] Meth can keep you up for days if you take enough of it, and that can make you go loopy in all kinds of ways.
[00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:38.680] But something else is happening here too.
[00:16:39.640 --> 00:16:56.760] So, right now, you are probably not on meth, and your brain cells are communicating, sending signals to each other in this orchestrated dance that allows you to listen to this podcast and not to think about other stuff swirling around your brain.
[00:16:56.760 --> 00:17:05.640] But because meth has these powerful effects on different chemicals in our brain, Jen says that it can scramble that dance.
[00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:05.960] Right.
[00:17:05.960 --> 00:17:10.600] And if you're not communicating properly, the signals get crossed.
[00:17:10.600 --> 00:17:18.680] For example, a really important thing that your brain does is that it inhibits or shushes certain signals.
[00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:20.760] But meth stops some of that from happening.
[00:17:20.760 --> 00:17:25.720] So all of a sudden, you're seeing things and thinking things that you wouldn't normally be.
[00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:36.440] Like, what about these satellites that might actually be, you know, controlled by the FBI or CIA and thoughts of like, I'm a pretty cool person.
[00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:40.360] Like, you go from I'm a very cool person to, oh, I'm God.
[00:17:40.360 --> 00:17:43.320] And why wouldn't I be God?
[00:17:43.320 --> 00:17:53.600] And you start creating those stories, and their brains just can't inhibit them and stop them at a point.
[00:17:53.600 --> 00:17:59.440] Everything is allowed to just.
[00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:10.400] And so studies find that quite a lot of people who use meth, we're talking maybe one in three, one in two, will get meth-associated psychosis.
[00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:15.360] But this is an experience they'll have while they're high.
[00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:20.400] Those thoughts should go away pretty soon after meth is out of their system.
[00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:25.040] So Tina, she only saw shadow people while she was taking meth.
[00:18:25.040 --> 00:18:29.360] And Theo only got paranoid like that when he was using heavily.
[00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:39.920] It is worth pointing out, though, that there are some unlucky folks who still get psychotic episodes even after they've stopped using meth.
[00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:44.160] And they can actually end up with a diagnosis of schizophrenia.
[00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:49.360] What's frustrating is that we don't know the chance that this will happen to you.
[00:18:49.360 --> 00:18:55.680] Researchers told me that it's rare, but your risk goes up the more meth that you use.
[00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:04.560] Now, if you are worried about getting schizophrenia, some research suggests that cannabis might be even riskier than meth.
[00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:07.120] So where does this leave us?
[00:19:07.120 --> 00:19:10.000] Will meth break your brain?
[00:19:10.320 --> 00:19:17.440] Well, while you're using it, it can give you psychosis and make you go a little bonkers.
[00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:23.520] But for a lot of users, if they can stay off meth, then their brain should actually get better.
[00:19:23.840 --> 00:19:27.120] But that is if you stop using meth.
[00:19:27.120 --> 00:19:29.920] So, what's the chance that if you start, you can get it?
[00:19:31.080 --> 00:19:35.080] That is how addictive is meth, really.
[00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:37.480] That's after the break.
[00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:40.840] Plus, a short pit stop at MethMouth.
[00:19:40.840 --> 00:19:42.040] Meth is bad.
[00:19:42.040 --> 00:19:45.480] It's gonna rot your teeth out of your head.
[00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:46.760] Coming out.
[00:19:55.320 --> 00:19:57.880] This episode is brought to you by Indeed.
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[00:23:31.560 --> 00:23:34.920] Today's Ask Me Anything is brought to you by Amazon.
[00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:42.120] Whether it's delivering medication to your door with Amazon Pharmacy or 24-7 virtual care with Amazon One Medical.
[00:23:42.120 --> 00:23:45.880] Thanks to Amazon, healthcare just got less painful.
[00:23:46.520 --> 00:23:52.840] So we are here with our little segment of Ask Me Anything with senior producer Rose Rimla.
[00:23:52.840 --> 00:23:53.400] Hi, Wendy.
[00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:57.000] And you've come to me with some questions from our lovely, lovely listeners.
[00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:07.400] D-Mac on Insta wants to know if you have had previous experience casting your voice for podcasts, radio, TV, what have you in the past.
[00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:09.160] And they say that it is perfect.
[00:24:09.160 --> 00:24:10.200] Well, thank you.
[00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:13.640] Um, no, I have not done any casting for my voice.
[00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:22.920] And in fact, early in my career, I was told that my voice is too low for radio.
[00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:24.600] Wow.
[00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:26.440] Not feminine enough?
[00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:27.480] Is that the idea?
[00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:29.080] That is the idea.
[00:24:29.080 --> 00:24:32.040] I think it was explicitly told to me not feminine enough.
[00:24:32.040 --> 00:24:41.720] And I was in fact given tips to speak, I'll do it now, higher up here in my voice.
[00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:48.240] Up here, and that that would be better for my career if I would speak like this.
[00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:48.960] I'm so confused.
[00:24:49.120 --> 00:24:52.720] You're either speaking too low or too high, or like you just can't get it right.
[00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:54.000] Like, you can't do anything right.
[00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:56.800] It's impossible to get it right.
[00:24:57.120 --> 00:24:59.920] I tried that for one report that I did.
[00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:06.080] This was not for size mess, it was for something else, and I just was so embarrassed and thought I sounded like such a fool.
[00:25:06.080 --> 00:25:07.200] I never did it again.
[00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:07.680] Wow.
[00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:09.120] So, thank you, D-Mac.
[00:25:09.280 --> 00:25:13.520] Yeah, D-Mac, you're healing old wounds here.
[00:25:13.840 --> 00:25:16.160] Okay, another one is from That Crazy Mr.
[00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:20.400] B on Insta, asking, What episode do you think about the most?
[00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:35.360] These days, I think I think about the microplastics episode the most because yeah, Rose, this was your episode because it really has changed what I do day to day.
[00:25:35.360 --> 00:25:39.120] It's annoying to not put plastics in the dishwasher.
[00:25:39.120 --> 00:25:42.640] Now I have to set them aside and I see them there.
[00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:46.960] Yeah, I love ruining things for everybody.
[00:25:47.040 --> 00:25:49.520] I don't eat my canned chickpeas anymore.
[00:25:49.520 --> 00:25:50.960] What about you, Rose?
[00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:58.720] Oh, I think about Meryl's toothbrushing episode a lot because sometimes I'm like, do I really need to brush my teeth?
[00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:03.280] I guess it's just made me aware of like there's no magic to toothbrushing.
[00:26:03.280 --> 00:26:06.080] It's just like exposing your teeth to fluoride.
[00:26:06.080 --> 00:26:12.480] Therefore, like, I feel like I can let myself have chocolate on my teeth for longer.
[00:26:12.800 --> 00:26:15.520] Giving me some weird and bad habits, I would say.
[00:26:18.800 --> 00:26:21.760] I don't think that was the message of the episode.
[00:26:21.760 --> 00:26:26.800] I think I was berated for my chocolate eating as part of that episode.
[00:26:26.800 --> 00:26:31.400] Somehow, it's made me like loosey or goosier with my oral hygiene.
[00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:32.840] Thanks, Rose.
[00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:33.640] Thanks, Wendy.
[00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:38.200] Today's Ask Me Anything was brought to you by Amazon.
[00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:41.560] Thanks to Amazon, healthcare just got less painful.
[00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:49.160] Welcome back today on the show, methamphetamine.
[00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:52.440] Next up, meth mouth.
[00:26:52.440 --> 00:27:00.680] There's this idea that meth is so bad for your teeth that it'll make them fall out and your gums will turn black.
[00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:11.560] And for one of our listeners, we'll call them Fallon, they said that after smoking meth for just a couple of years, a few of their back teeth were pretty messed up.
[00:27:11.560 --> 00:27:14.040] They were so bad.
[00:27:14.040 --> 00:27:15.400] It was horrendous.
[00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:17.720] I was like, this is, this can't be real.
[00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:22.760] It was like, like the back ones, there was no white on it and it was gum.
[00:27:22.760 --> 00:27:23.320] Wow.
[00:27:23.320 --> 00:27:24.680] Just from decay.
[00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:25.240] Wow.
[00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:27.880] Yeah, they were horrible.
[00:27:28.200 --> 00:27:40.120] And a study of more than 500 heavy meth users found that just under a third of them had six or more missing teeth, which is quite a bit higher than the general population.
[00:27:40.120 --> 00:27:45.400] Meth users also have higher rates of holes in their teeth and gum disease.
[00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:50.360] And this all makes sense based on everything we've heard about meth, right?
[00:27:50.360 --> 00:27:51.800] Meth is bad.
[00:27:51.800 --> 00:27:54.760] It's gonna rot your teeth out of your head.
[00:27:54.760 --> 00:27:55.960] Don't do it.
[00:27:55.960 --> 00:27:56.680] And this is.
[00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:58.520] Hi, my name is Kate O'Malley.
[00:27:58.520 --> 00:28:04.360] I'm a researcher at Columbia University Department of Psychology and at the New York State Psychiatric Institute.
[00:28:04.360 --> 00:28:07.080] And then just tell us how many times you've tried meth.
[00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:16.880] So I asked Kate, does meth eat away at your gums and teeth?
[00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:17.760] No.
[00:28:17.760 --> 00:28:24.400] You know, it's very unlikely that methamphetamine itself is eating away at your teeth.
[00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:30.800] There's this idea that the smoke from smoking meth is acidic and eats away at your teeth, which is why you lose them.
[00:28:30.800 --> 00:28:47.360] But a study of 300 folks who were dependent on meth found that IV users were actually way more likely to be missing teeth than those who smoked meth, which the researchers said belies the common notions about the corrosive effects of meth.
[00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:50.080] So what is going on here?
[00:28:50.400 --> 00:29:04.000] Well, Kate told me that meth can make you grind your teeth and also some people get a really dry mouth from using meth, which could be bad because saliva helps protect your teeth from tooth decay.
[00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:19.040] But Kate, as well as some other researchers, have suggested that there could be a much simpler explanation for what's happening here, which is that when you get high a lot, you just might not take good care of your teeth.
[00:29:19.040 --> 00:29:28.640] And researchers found that chronic meth users tend to drink a lot of sugary drinks and sometimes aren't so great at dental care.
[00:29:29.280 --> 00:29:30.160] Here's Kate.
[00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:34.720] Perhaps they're not brushing their teeth and flossing twice a day.
[00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:36.400] Are you surprised by this?
[00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:39.440] I mean, those are Occam's race are sometimes the simplest answer.
[00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:41.360] It's the most likely.
[00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:48.880] Looking at the research, it just doesn't seem like meth is uniquely bad for your teeth.
[00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:57.360] Like a study of almost 60 drug users found that the teeth of heroin users was just as bad as the teeth of meth users.
[00:29:57.360 --> 00:30:04.680] And researchers found that when meth users do brush their teeth, they're less likely to have crappy teeth.
[00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:16.440] Quite a few of the folks that I spoke to who had used meth were actually so paranoid about getting so-called meth mouth that they made sure that they took care of their teeth.
[00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:17.480] Like Tina.
[00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:19.640] I still, first of all, I still have all my teeth.
[00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:20.360] Okay.
[00:30:21.320 --> 00:30:23.320] I still have all my teeth.
[00:30:23.320 --> 00:30:24.040] Excellent teeth.
[00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:24.600] Thank you.
[00:30:24.600 --> 00:30:25.320] So what?
[00:30:25.320 --> 00:30:29.000] Can I just say, you could be on a Colgate commercial?
[00:30:29.320 --> 00:30:29.960] Thank you.
[00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:30.440] Thank you.
[00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:35.080] It would be crust white strips because those are the ones that I use.
[00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:37.480] And so were you brushing your teeth?
[00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:39.560] Is that why you think you were fine?
[00:30:39.960 --> 00:30:42.440] I was still brushing my teeth.
[00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:50.200] It may not have been at the exact cadence that a normal person would be brushing their teeth, but I was still brushing my teeth.
[00:30:50.200 --> 00:30:52.200] So that's meth mouth.
[00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:55.880] A little more alliteration than science.
[00:30:56.200 --> 00:31:07.560] But as I was researching about meth and its effects on the body, I realized that there are some other less well-known things that I really wanted people to know about.
[00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:12.040] And one of them is the toll that meth can take on your heart.
[00:31:12.040 --> 00:31:18.280] Meth can increase inflammation in your blood vessels, increasing your risk of getting a serious heart disease.
[00:31:18.280 --> 00:31:19.320] Here's Martin again.
[00:31:19.320 --> 00:31:24.360] With methamphetamine, you can see 20-year-olds having strokes.
[00:31:24.360 --> 00:31:26.840] You can have 20-year-olds having heart attacks.
[00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:32.920] And in fact, in the US, more and more people are dying from meth overdoses.
[00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:38.680] It's actually the second most common kind of drug to die from after opioids.
[00:31:38.680 --> 00:31:46.480] People who die with meth in their system aren't just dying from heart attacks, but also things like suicide and car accidents.
[00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:53.600] Okay, our next question: Is meth the most addictive drug in the world?
[00:31:53.600 --> 00:31:56.800] You know, remember those ads from the start of the show?
[00:31:56.800 --> 00:31:58.000] Oh, man.
[00:31:58.480 --> 00:31:59.200] Meth.
[00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:00.720] Oh, not that one.
[00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:05.840] The other ones that were like, I went to a party, I tried it once, and now my life is ruined.
[00:32:05.840 --> 00:32:08.080] Well, is that true?
[00:32:08.080 --> 00:32:11.040] Is that how addictive meth really is?
[00:32:11.360 --> 00:32:20.400] And, you know, because meth has those powerful effects on our brain, it does make sense that it would be super, super addictive.
[00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:28.240] And so I talked to our breaking bad fan and neuroscientist, Martin Paulus, about this.
[00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:30.640] Can you just try meth once and walk away?
[00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:33.440] The answer to that is certainly yes.
[00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:41.840] Only a minority of people who are exposed to the drug will actually become dependent or develop use disorder.
[00:32:41.840 --> 00:32:45.600] So it's not, it's like inevitable.
[00:32:45.600 --> 00:32:52.400] It's not like it wipes out your entire brain and you're kind of a slave to the drug the moment you take it.
[00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:54.000] It's just not like that.
[00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:07.360] This huge survey on the drug use of millions of folks in the US found that in 2023, over 16 million people said that they had used meth at least once in their lifetime.
[00:33:07.360 --> 00:33:13.840] And around 11% of those were classified as having a meth use disorder.
[00:33:13.840 --> 00:33:24.640] So based on that metric, roughly one in 10 people who tried meth are currently classified as having a meth addiction or meth use disorder.
[00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:30.280] And when you compare meth to other drugs, it actually doesn't stand out.
[00:33:30.600 --> 00:33:38.600] So, based on that huge survey, slightly more people who'd ever used POT ended up with a POT use disorder.
[00:33:38.920 --> 00:33:43.800] More people who had tried alcohol ended up with an alcohol use disorder.
[00:33:43.800 --> 00:33:47.480] Another study from the 90s found basically the same thing.
[00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:57.480] I mean, in that study, they included tobacco, and you were three times more likely to become dependent on tobacco versus stimulants like meth.
[00:33:58.120 --> 00:34:00.680] And I don't know if you're surprised about this.
[00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:04.120] I definitely was when I first read about it.
[00:34:04.120 --> 00:34:26.680] But the researchers I spoke to were not because they told me, well, yeah, you know, the reason that you get addicted to a substance, it's driven by the chemicals in the drug, but also a whole bunch of other things like what your friends are doing, what you have easy access to, what society says is kind of acceptable.
[00:34:27.640 --> 00:34:33.720] The use disorder is more than just, you know, the kick of dopamine.
[00:34:33.720 --> 00:34:36.760] Yes, that explains some element of it, no question.
[00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:38.680] But it's not the only thing.
[00:34:38.680 --> 00:34:47.160] So I think, based on the research, meth does not deserve its reputation as this drug that's going to get everyone hooked.
[00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:51.720] But there is something about meth's reputation that's right.
[00:34:51.720 --> 00:34:58.920] Here's the kicker: the rapidity with which you develop methamphetamine use disorder is unbelievable.
[00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:08.280] Mutton means that the speed that you can go from feeling in control of your drug use to being addicted to meth can be pretty fast.
[00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:30.720] There was this one survey of almost 300 meth-dependent users, and it found that on average, the time it took them to go from trying it once to then having a meth use disorder was around three months, which is quite a bit faster according to other research than for alcohol, cocaine, or cannabis.
[00:35:31.680 --> 00:35:41.360] So, while the majority of people who try meth will actually never get addicted to it, for those who do, it's very, it can be very terrible.
[00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:42.640] You know, you're down the cliff.
[00:35:42.640 --> 00:35:45.120] I mean, it's uh, that's the point.
[00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:54.960] And this is where that stereotype, or even the people that you see using meth in the news, this is where it really comes from.
[00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:58.720] It's the minority of users who fall far.
[00:35:59.040 --> 00:36:09.120] And for most of the people that I spoke to about their meth use, the ones that you're hearing from, their meth use, it actually did get pretty bad.
[00:36:09.120 --> 00:36:20.720] So, that listener from the start of the show, who at first felt really twinkly, like she was from Twilight when she started using meth, she ended up getting arrested twice.
[00:36:20.720 --> 00:36:27.040] Others lost jobs, got kicked out of their home, found themselves in really dangerous situations.
[00:36:27.040 --> 00:36:34.640] Theo, who started using meth in his late teens, remembers when his addiction had well and truly set in.
[00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:37.760] I couldn't stop using it, I couldn't stop thinking about it.
[00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:43.840] I mean, I was like stealing it from people that I was hooking up with, using everything that I had really fast.
[00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:54.160] And it got to a point where right around 21, I was like in my carpet, like looking through the carpet for like little shards of meth to put in a pipe and try to smoke.
[00:36:54.160 --> 00:37:00.000] I remember like vacuuming and like emptying the vacuum on my desk and like trying to like dig out little shards.
[00:37:00.120 --> 00:37:02.760] And we had a cat in this house that we lived at.
[00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:06.120] And I mean, that you know, kitty litter looks a lot.
[00:37:06.120 --> 00:37:09.400] There's like these crystals in kitty litter that looks a lot like it.
[00:37:09.400 --> 00:37:12.200] And I remember kind of just tasting gross stuff.
[00:37:12.200 --> 00:37:16.520] You know, I'd put stuff in the pipe and just try to get something out of it.
[00:37:16.520 --> 00:37:17.960] I mean, I was so desperate.
[00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:20.840] Yeah, the addiction was like full on.
[00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:22.920] There was no stopping it.
[00:37:23.240 --> 00:37:26.200] Theo knew the day he had to quit.
[00:37:26.200 --> 00:37:27.400] He was in his room.
[00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:31.560] He could hear his sister on the phone with his mom who lives in Mexico.
[00:37:31.560 --> 00:37:35.480] He's got a really good relationship with them both, loves them a lot.
[00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:40.600] And Theo could hear them talking about him and how bad he was doing.
[00:37:40.600 --> 00:37:46.840] And I remember being getting really angry and opening the door to like confront them and like nobody was there.
[00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:50.040] I felt it rock my core and I'm like, oh my God.
[00:37:50.040 --> 00:37:54.920] I may have imagined that, but I think that's like my subconscious trying to fight for me.
[00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:57.080] Like there's this part of me that wants to live.
[00:37:57.080 --> 00:38:00.600] There's this part of me that wants to not do this anymore.
[00:38:00.600 --> 00:38:11.800] Like there's a part of me that's just like so tired of like the really dark life, the situations, the hearing the voices, the like the financial insecurity, the like feeling so alone.
[00:38:11.800 --> 00:38:14.840] Like it just got to a point where I just, I was tired.
[00:38:14.840 --> 00:38:19.080] And if, and if I didn't do anything, like I felt like I was gonna die.
[00:38:19.080 --> 00:38:24.200] If I didn't do it myself, like something was gonna kill me.
[00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:31.800] So I just felt like it was like, I don't know, I'm not a religious person, but it felt like very spiritual to me.
[00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:36.200] It was like something wanted me to live.
[00:38:36.520 --> 00:38:37.000] Yeah.
[00:38:37.560 --> 00:38:39.560] So, what did you do next?
[00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:48.480] I actually texted my sister and I said, hey, I want to be honest.
[00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:49.680] I have a problem.
[00:38:49.680 --> 00:38:56.080] I've been using meth for so long and I needed help.
[00:38:56.080 --> 00:39:06.080] And I remember just immediately her calling me and like just bawling and being like, You know, you're, I will, we will help you.
[00:39:06.080 --> 00:39:07.200] You are fine.
[00:39:07.200 --> 00:39:10.560] We love you and we just want you to be better.
[00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:22.240] And I don't know why I just was so scared because I thought they were going to reject me and just be like, you know, that's disgusting.
[00:39:22.240 --> 00:39:22.880] You're on your own.
[00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:23.360] I don't know.
[00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:28.720] I just thought like there was a chance that they just wouldn't respond the way that they had.
[00:39:29.040 --> 00:39:34.160] And once you are addicted like this, it can be hard to quit.
[00:39:34.160 --> 00:39:40.640] The stats are a little all over the place, depending on stuff like how long the studies follow people for.
[00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:54.160] But as an example, there was this one US study of more than 300 meth users who went to an LA treatment center, and they found that around 40% stayed off meth for the first year.
[00:39:54.160 --> 00:39:58.640] Five years later, only 13% were abstinent.
[00:39:58.640 --> 00:40:04.080] Another survey, slightly better results, 25% were abstinent.
[00:40:04.080 --> 00:40:07.360] So one in four five years later.
[00:40:07.680 --> 00:40:12.960] Theo ended up going to AA and narcotics anonymous meetings.
[00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:19.280] He's relapsed a few times, which according to one study, it happens to about half of those who try NA.
[00:40:19.600 --> 00:40:25.200] But he told me that it's never gotten as bad as it was that first time.
[00:40:25.200 --> 00:40:26.960] And he's doing much better now.
[00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:29.040] Theo has gone back to college.
[00:40:29.040 --> 00:40:31.320] He's almost finished a math degree.
[00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:34.920] And now here I am, and now I'm like super happy and proud.
[00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:37.000] I'm really excited to see what you do next.
[00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:37.720] Yeah.
[00:40:37.720 --> 00:40:38.280] Thank you.
[00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:40.040] Yeah, I'm excited.
[00:40:40.040 --> 00:40:47.480] For Tina, when her boyfriend at the time got a job overseas, she saw it as this opportunity to stop using.
[00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:53.720] And actually, when Tina told her mom, I'm leaving, they had this big fight.
[00:40:53.720 --> 00:40:57.800] And she was like, you're moving to Europe so you can do drugs.
[00:40:57.800 --> 00:41:00.920] And I screamed back at her, I was like, you don't understand.
[00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:02.600] The drugs are here.
[00:41:02.920 --> 00:41:05.000] I need to leave here.
[00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:07.160] And we left.
[00:41:07.160 --> 00:41:08.280] We moved.
[00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:14.200] I was ready to walk away, but I couldn't stop myself when it was in front of me.
[00:41:14.200 --> 00:41:16.920] So if it wasn't in front of me, I was thrilled.
[00:41:16.920 --> 00:41:19.640] I was so good to just keep going.
[00:41:19.640 --> 00:41:23.320] So now I graduated back in May.
[00:41:23.320 --> 00:41:28.040] I have a great job that I love, and I have totally turned my shit around.
[00:41:28.680 --> 00:41:31.400] She's been off meth for almost 10 years.
[00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:37.720] And in fact, a few of our listeners that you heard from stopped using by basically walking away.
[00:41:37.720 --> 00:41:39.080] Researchers like Dr.
[00:41:39.080 --> 00:41:46.520] Krista Seifraid at the University of New South Wales in Sydney are now looking into new ways to help folks with meth dependence.
[00:41:46.520 --> 00:41:48.440] And some are pretty surprising.
[00:41:48.440 --> 00:41:55.880] Like there's therapy, CBT for meth, where you teach people coping strategies around cravings.
[00:41:55.880 --> 00:42:07.160] So for example, how to surf an urge to use methamphetamine, how to urge surf, how to be able to sit with that discomfort and wait until it passes.
[00:42:07.720 --> 00:42:09.160] How do you surf the urge?
[00:42:09.160 --> 00:42:10.520] What's one tip?
[00:42:10.520 --> 00:42:23.600] They actually visualize the wave and the fact that the wave, you can actually watch the wave as it crests and it gets bigger and it feels like it's going to be overwhelming, but eventually it does actually crash and then recede.
[00:42:23.600 --> 00:42:34.320] There's also these pretty cool programs out there that will give people a bit of money when they can show that they haven't been using meth and that has been found to help.
[00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:38.800] And researchers are also looking into medications that we could use here.
[00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:46.080] Like, you know how we use methadone to help people with opioid addiction or nicotine patches for nicotine addiction?
[00:42:46.080 --> 00:42:52.960] Well, one of the things that Krista is currently researching is ADHD medication.
[00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:57.040] Not meth, but a drug called Lizdex amphetamine.
[00:42:57.040 --> 00:43:02.800] And their early research is showing that it really could help some people use less meth.
[00:43:03.120 --> 00:43:11.040] As we were wrapping up, I asked Krista, do you think that meth has earned its reputation as one of the scariest drugs out there?
[00:43:11.040 --> 00:43:14.000] No, I don't think that that's, I don't think that that's true.
[00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:21.680] I think what's I think what's happened is that meth has earned itself a reputation whereby it's highly stigmatized.
[00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:24.320] So I don't think it's that it's the scariest drug out there.
[00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:27.200] I think that it's a highly misunderstood drug.
[00:43:27.200 --> 00:43:32.160] Do you know current working title for this episode is Meth the Most Misunderstood Drug?
[00:43:32.160 --> 00:43:33.200] Question mark.
[00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:37.360] Well done.
[00:43:37.680 --> 00:43:41.280] Love getting an A plus from a scientist.
[00:43:43.520 --> 00:43:49.760] So when it comes to Zeitz versus meth, is it the most misunderstood drug?
[00:43:50.080 --> 00:44:00.000] Well, I had thought that meth was this uniquely hyper-addictive drug that was terrible for your brain and even rotted your teeth.
[00:44:00.680 --> 00:44:05.240] And now that I know the evidence, it's definitely a naughty drug.
[00:44:05.240 --> 00:44:07.400] It's in the naughty pile.
[00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:09.800] But it's just a drug.
[00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:17.400] You know, it can be fun, but also, particularly if you take a lot of it, it can have some pretty nasty consequences.
[00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:19.800] You want to be careful here.
[00:44:20.120 --> 00:44:22.120] I don't know if I'd try it.
[00:44:22.120 --> 00:44:23.640] Probably not.
[00:44:24.280 --> 00:44:29.480] But you might catch me humming a little ditty about it.
[00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:32.200] Oh, meth, mm, meth.
[00:44:32.200 --> 00:44:37.880] I don't sleep and I don't eat, but I've got the cleanest house on the street.
[00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:40.360] Oh, meth, mm, meth.
[00:44:41.320 --> 00:44:43.560] That's science versus.
[00:44:43.560 --> 00:44:47.800] This episode has 114 citations in it.
[00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:56.360] So if you want to read more about anything that I've said on the show or you're curious, then you can find these citations by looking in the show notes.
[00:44:56.360 --> 00:44:58.280] And then there's a link to a transcript.
[00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:04.280] And you click on that transcript and then you'll see where we basically get our information from.
[00:45:04.600 --> 00:45:08.440] If you want to let me know what you thought of the episode, I would love to hear from you.
[00:45:08.440 --> 00:45:12.120] I'm on TikTok at WendyZuckerman, is how you can find me.
[00:45:12.120 --> 00:45:16.200] Science versus is on Instagram, science underscore VS.
[00:45:16.200 --> 00:45:18.440] So come and say hello.
[00:45:18.440 --> 00:45:30.920] And for all of you folks who saw that call out on Instagram saying that I was looking for people to talk to about their meth use and you are up for a chat, I just want to say thank you so much.
[00:45:30.920 --> 00:45:37.400] It was so lovely chatting with all of you, and I just, I really appreciate that you took the time to talk to me.
[00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:38.600] Thank you.
[00:45:38.920 --> 00:45:50.640] And if you are struggling with your drug use and maybe you want to change your relationship with the drugs that you're using, we're going to put some resources in our show notes.
[00:45:57.600 --> 00:46:04.160] This episode was produced by me, Wendy Zuckerman, with help from Meryl Horn, Rose Rimler, Michelle Dang, and Aketi Foster Keys.
[00:46:04.160 --> 00:46:05.840] We're edited by Blythe Terrell.
[00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:08.000] Fact-checking by Erica Akiko-Howard.
[00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:10.080] Mix and sound design by Bobby Lorde.
[00:46:10.080 --> 00:46:15.200] Music written by Bobby Lord, Bumi Hidaka, So Wiley, Emma Munger, and Peter Leonard.
[00:46:15.200 --> 00:46:19.440] Thanks to all of the researchers that I spoke to for this episode, including Dr.
[00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:22.400] Heather Barkoltz, Professor Nadine Ezard, Dr.
[00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:23.680] Nicole Lee, Dr.
[00:46:23.680 --> 00:46:25.120] Samantha Brooks, Dr.
[00:46:25.120 --> 00:46:28.240] Steph Kershaw, Professor Stephen Shoptor, Dr.
[00:46:28.240 --> 00:46:33.280] Susan Calcatera, Professor Harriet DeWitt, and Professor Edith London.
[00:46:33.280 --> 00:46:36.480] A special thanks to the Zuckerman family and Joseph LaBelle-Wilson.
[00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:39.040] Science Versus is a Spotify studios original.
[00:46:39.040 --> 00:46:43.040] You can listen to us for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:46:43.040 --> 00:46:50.880] And wherever you are listening, if you like the show, we'd love if you gave us a five-star review because it helps other people find the show.
[00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:53.920] Hear more about science, which is great.
[00:46:54.160 --> 00:47:01.920] If you are listening on Spotify, though, you can follow us and tap the bell icon so you get notifications when new episodes come out.
[00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:03.440] I'm Wendy Zuckerman.
[00:47:03.440 --> 00:47:04.960] Back to you next time.
[00:47:10.400 --> 00:47:12.720] Bundle and safe with Expedia.
[00:47:12.720 --> 00:47:19.200] You were made to follow your favorite band and from the front row, we were made to quietly save you more.
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Prompt 2: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 3: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 4: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Full Transcript

[00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:04.320] Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman and you're listening to Science Versus.
[00:00:05.600 --> 00:00:09.280] Today on the show, methamphetamine.
[00:00:13.120 --> 00:00:23.040] More and more people in the US are trying it, and it's got this reputation as being one of the scariest and most addictive drugs out there.
[00:00:23.040 --> 00:00:25.280] Is that true?
[00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:34.720] I feel like basically every message that we get about meth is that it's this uniquely dangerous drug, almost in a category of its own.
[00:00:34.720 --> 00:00:42.080] Like in this government PSA, you see a normal teenager whose life is ruined by it.
[00:00:42.080 --> 00:00:45.040] I wish my tire had blown out that night.
[00:00:45.360 --> 00:00:48.080] I wish my car had skidded off the road.
[00:00:48.720 --> 00:00:52.320] I wish I'd broken my neck, but I didn't crash.
[00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:56.480] I drove to that party and I did meth for the first time.
[00:00:56.800 --> 00:01:00.080] I did meth, and now this is my life.
[00:01:00.400 --> 00:01:01.920] And that's the idea, right?
[00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:08.400] That meth is so addictive that if you try it just once at a party, you won't be able to stop.
[00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:11.920] And in the meantime, it'll destroy your life.
[00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:16.720] We hear that meth will rot your gums, make your teeth fall out.
[00:01:16.720 --> 00:01:19.200] I mean, ever heard of meth mouth?
[00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:24.800] And even worse, apparently after using meth, your brain will never be the same again.
[00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:26.960] Some people, they just lose it.
[00:01:26.960 --> 00:01:28.000] Stop looking at it!
[00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:42.720] Research shows that taking methamphetamine, even just a few times, can impair your brain and movement for life, life, life, life, life, life, life, life, life, life.
[00:01:43.360 --> 00:01:49.920] And I should say that not all meth PSAs went for the scare the hell out of you approach.
[00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:58.080] I do have to play this bonkers ad that my editor remembers hearing a lot when she grew up in the Midwest.
[00:01:58.080 --> 00:02:01.080] Look at me, busy as a bee.
[00:02:01.080 --> 00:02:03.720] Where'd I get all this energy?
[00:02:03.720 --> 00:02:06.440] Oh, meth, mm, meth.
[00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:14.840] But even this busy bee who's frantically cleaning her house with a toothbrush ends up in bad shape.
[00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:24.760] And if all that wasn't bad enough, watching the news, it seems like we're in a meth epidemic with this super addictive drug only getting more powerful.
[00:02:24.760 --> 00:02:29.880] This month, the New York Times wrote that meth is more dangerous than ever.
[00:02:29.880 --> 00:02:35.880] We are in the midst of a crisis when it comes to methamphetamine.
[00:02:36.200 --> 00:02:39.080] It's more destructive than any other drug.
[00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:43.480] Law enforcers are starting to see the emergence of super-powered versions of meth.
[00:02:43.480 --> 00:02:48.280] Experts say it's more lethal and it causes extreme psychosis.
[00:02:48.600 --> 00:02:58.600] But something here doesn't quite add up because as scientists kept telling me, meth is an FDA-approved drug.
[00:02:58.600 --> 00:02:59.640] Did you know this?
[00:02:59.640 --> 00:03:05.880] In the US, it's used to treat ADHD and it can be given to people six years and older.
[00:03:05.880 --> 00:03:06.600] Children.
[00:03:06.600 --> 00:03:09.000] We're giving meth to children.
[00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:17.320] So today on the show, is meth really this horrendously bad drug where one hit will get you so addicted it'll ruin your life?
[00:03:17.640 --> 00:03:21.880] What exactly does meth do to our brain and our body?
[00:03:21.880 --> 00:03:28.920] When it comes to meth, there's a lot of and then there's science.
[00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:35.000] Science versus meth is coming up just after the break.
[00:03:41.720 --> 00:03:44.440] This episode is brought to you by KPMG.
[00:03:44.440 --> 00:03:50.960] Science helps shape how KPMG views transformation, but it's their people who make it real.
[00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:59.680] They help clients visualize data, understand how consumers think, and use AI to craft emotionally resonant experiences.
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[00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:17.520] KPMG, make the difference.
[00:04:19.440 --> 00:04:22.000] This episode is brought to you by Indeed.
[00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:24.800] Taking things slow isn't always a good thing.
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[00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:56.960] That's indeed.com/slash science on.
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[00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:07.920] Welcome back today on the show, meth.
[00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:15.280] So, right off the bat here, there's this idea that the new meth on the street is like meth on steroids.
[00:05:15.280 --> 00:05:21.200] It's sometimes called super meth, and headlines are screaming that it's a monster.
[00:05:21.200 --> 00:05:23.680] It's actually not a new drug.
[00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:25.680] Meth is still meth.
[00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:29.120] But for a while now, it's been produced in a different way.
[00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:32.600] And a big thing is that it's cut with less crap.
[00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:44.600] An analysis of meth samples in the US done by the Drug Enforcement Administration found that in the late 90s, the purity of meth that you'd buy on the street was about 20%.
[00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:47.400] Fast forward more than 20 years.
[00:05:47.400 --> 00:05:52.360] On average, it's almost 97% pure.
[00:05:52.360 --> 00:05:55.800] That is Walter White-level pure.
[00:05:56.120 --> 00:06:01.160] So now, let's find out what meth, just meth, is doing to our brain.
[00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:05.640] And I really wanted to understand just what it felt like to take meth.
[00:06:05.640 --> 00:06:14.520] So I reached out to our listeners who had tried it and had these awesome conversations about the highs and the lows of using meth.
[00:06:14.520 --> 00:06:18.360] So here's how they described what meth can feel like.
[00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:23.640] Meth makes your whole body kind of tingly instantly in like a nice way.
[00:06:23.640 --> 00:06:25.160] Almost like glistening.
[00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:27.000] Almost like Edward in Twilight.
[00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:29.320] You know, he's in the sun and he's just like kind of glistening.
[00:06:29.320 --> 00:06:31.080] That's kind of how you feel on meth.
[00:06:31.080 --> 00:06:33.480] And I felt very on alert.
[00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:36.120] I, you know, everything was sort of heightened.
[00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:40.520] I was wide awake, probably not blinking as much as a regular person.
[00:06:40.520 --> 00:06:56.360] I remember just being like really horny, really horny, you know, wanting to be like touched and like kissed and like, you know, all of this like really intense kind of like feeling of like me wanting to be with this guy in every and any way possible.
[00:06:56.360 --> 00:07:02.440] Oh wow, like it just felt like it unlocked everything, every pathway in my head.
[00:07:02.440 --> 00:07:05.480] I remember feeling socially perfect.
[00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:07.160] No anxiety.
[00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:10.360] It just makes like all of your best parts better.
[00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:14.440] It feels like it's just turning on the happy in your head.
[00:07:18.640 --> 00:07:21.520] So, how can meth make you feel this way?
[00:07:21.520 --> 00:07:24.320] Turn on the happy in your head.
[00:07:24.320 --> 00:07:30.960] I talked about this with Professor Martin Paulis, scientific director at the Laureate Institute for Brain Research.
[00:07:30.960 --> 00:07:33.440] And he loves studying meth.
[00:07:33.440 --> 00:07:36.000] He loves watching TV shows about meth.
[00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:37.680] Breaking Bad is my favorite show.
[00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:38.800] Really?
[00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:39.360] Yeah, yeah.
[00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:39.760] Oh, yeah.
[00:07:40.320 --> 00:07:41.440] I love the show.
[00:07:41.440 --> 00:07:46.080] We actually have a paper that has the subtitle, I'm the Danger.
[00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:53.840] So Martin told me that meth releases a bunch of chemicals into our brain, like adrenaline and serotonin.
[00:07:53.840 --> 00:07:59.440] But a biggie is dopamine, which is kind of like the feel-good chemical.
[00:07:59.760 --> 00:08:06.240] And meth does this pretty cool stuff to get dopamine really working in your brain.
[00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:14.400] It essentially makes a drop of dopamine seem like it's an ocean of dopamine.
[00:08:14.400 --> 00:08:18.720] Normally, what happens when you do nice things that bump up your dopamine?
[00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:24.880] Not meth, but let's say you have a little sex, you eat a little chocolate, you get a little dopamine hit.
[00:08:24.880 --> 00:08:30.880] And so the dopamine system turns up the knob a little bit and you say, oh, wow, you know, this is really, this is really something.
[00:08:30.880 --> 00:08:37.600] Time passes, and then the dopamine is sucked back up into the nerve cell and it's basically gone, right?
[00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:39.920] And so that you get the little boop and it's gone.
[00:08:39.920 --> 00:08:48.800] What methamphetamine does is it floods parts of your brain with dopamine, but then it stops that sucking up.
[00:08:48.800 --> 00:08:57.040] And the fact that then the it stops it getting sucked back, so the dopamine will hang around for longer as well.
[00:08:57.040 --> 00:08:58.400] That's right, that's right, yeah.
[00:08:58.640 --> 00:09:05.080] And so literally, you get this flood of dopamine that comes out of nowhere, and everything seems like great.
[00:09:05.400 --> 00:09:11.160] People who, even the first time they do meth, they say it's like 100 times an orgasm.
[00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:21.400] Studies in rats have found that meth increases dopamine in a part of their brain by more than a thousand percent.
[00:09:21.400 --> 00:09:27.080] Compare that to cocaine, which bumped up dopamine by a measly 350%.
[00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:30.200] Meth also crosses the blood-brain barrier really quickly.
[00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:35.480] So if you're snorting, injecting, or smoking it, it means you can get high super fast.
[00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:41.560] Plus, that high can last for hours, some eight times longer than Coke.
[00:09:41.560 --> 00:09:47.720] So that is part of the reason that meth can give you this incredible high, because it's flooding your brain with dopamine.
[00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:56.120] Dopamine also helps you focus and pay attention to things, which is why a little bit of meth can work as a medication for ADHD.
[00:09:56.440 --> 00:10:06.440] But feeling that huge happy in your head, it doesn't last forever because, like other drugs, your brain builds up a tolerance.
[00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:11.560] Dopamine works by binding to all these little receptors on your brain cells.
[00:10:11.560 --> 00:10:17.640] But as you keep using meth, your brain takes some of those receptors away.
[00:10:17.640 --> 00:10:20.600] So here's Martin, our neuroscientist again.
[00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:28.520] So you get the dopamine, but there's nobody listening on the other side, or fewer receptors listening.
[00:10:28.520 --> 00:10:32.120] So you don't get the same effect after a while, right?
[00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:40.920] It's no longer like this roof, this incredible hit, but now it's like a little poof.
[00:10:40.920 --> 00:10:47.920] So that is why you might not keep twinkling as bright as a teen heartthrob when you keep using meth.
[00:10:49.040 --> 00:10:52.720] But then our next question is: what are the risks here?
[00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:57.440] Because people say that meth can break your brain in all kinds of ways.
[00:10:57.440 --> 00:11:04.560] And one thing that a lot of our listeners were worried about who had used meth was how the drug had affected their memory.
[00:11:04.560 --> 00:11:12.480] And it is true that when you're using a lot of meth, or soon after you stop, it can screw with your cognition and memory.
[00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:17.840] One paper said it was similar to what you might see in folks with alcohol use disorder.
[00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:23.520] You can even see abnormalities popping up in brain scans of heavy meth users.
[00:11:23.520 --> 00:11:34.400] Now, it's not that noticeable or bad for everyone, but one guy I spoke to who asked us to call him enough, he's used meth pretty much every day for the last four years.
[00:11:34.400 --> 00:11:38.480] He told me that these days his memory is shot.
[00:11:38.800 --> 00:11:41.520] Everything in the past is not really there.
[00:11:41.520 --> 00:11:43.200] It's just fog and haze.
[00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:47.840] And like even like one of my work best friends, I can't even remember how we met.
[00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:49.280] And I had to tell her that the other day.
[00:11:49.280 --> 00:11:51.840] Like, I really don't remember how we met.
[00:11:52.800 --> 00:12:06.320] But what a lot of the scary meth news articles out there don't tell you is that if you stop using meth, your brain can at least partly recover.
[00:12:06.640 --> 00:12:20.320] Studies show that even after long-term heavy use, once users stay off meth for, let's say, six months, a year, their scores on cognitive tests improve, including their memory.
[00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:25.840] Over time, some areas of the brain itself even start to look more normal.
[00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:29.120] Martin told me that this is good news here.
[00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:35.800] The point being is there's enormous regenerative capacity in the brain.
[00:12:35.800 --> 00:12:41.320] I mean, there are limitations, but there's a tremendous amount of regeneration that can happen.
[00:12:41.640 --> 00:12:45.240] In the longer term, there are some other things to worry about, though.
[00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:52.920] Like meth might put you at an increased risk of Parkinson's disease, which is a disease related to dopamine.
[00:12:53.240 --> 00:13:06.520] But the big thing that you hear a lot about when it comes to meth is that it'll make you go basically psycho, where you start seeing things and hearing things.
[00:13:06.520 --> 00:13:14.360] One of our listeners, she asked me to call her Tina, started off just taking meth with friends to go dancing on the weekend.
[00:13:14.360 --> 00:13:21.560] She'd party all weekend on this big binge, and on her way home, sometimes she'd start to see things.
[00:13:21.560 --> 00:13:32.760] What would happen is when I was driving home, out of my peripheral vision, I would swear that I saw someone walking up out of the woods and like walking towards the road.
[00:13:32.760 --> 00:13:38.200] And then, as soon as you shift your vision over and you look directly at them, they're gone because they were never there in the first place.
[00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:40.760] But yeah, I saw many shadow people.
[00:13:40.760 --> 00:13:42.920] Did you have any other hallucinations?
[00:13:42.920 --> 00:13:43.960] Oh, yeah.
[00:13:45.400 --> 00:13:51.160] There's a video of me somewhere that a friend took trying to catch bugs.
[00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:53.000] They were not there.
[00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:55.000] There were no bugs there.
[00:13:57.240 --> 00:14:00.200] For another listener, we'll call him Theo.
[00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:08.680] After he was using meth for a couple of years, when he was high, he would get into this really creepy headspace.
[00:14:08.680 --> 00:14:12.360] You know, I couldn't leave the house or drive because I was so paranoid.
[00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:16.720] You know, I had like blankets covering all of my windows, and I would just like stand there.
[00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:17.280] Why?
[00:14:17.280 --> 00:14:21.600] Because in my mind, I like knew somebody was out there watching me.
[00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:23.200] You know, I don't know who it is.
[00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:25.120] Maybe it's the cops, or I don't know.
[00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:30.080] And I would hear voices, I would hear my neighbors talking shit about me, and I'd be like, oh my God.
[00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:36.240] And, you know, I would turn my phone off and like turn electronics off because I knew there was like trackers and everything.
[00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:40.480] And it was so intense and it was just so dark.
[00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:48.320] Collectively, all of these symptoms, hallucinating, getting paranoid, this is all called meth-associated psychosis.
[00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:53.360] And researchers say that it can look indistinguishable from schizophrenia.
[00:14:53.360 --> 00:15:03.440] And I called up Jennifer Scheer, a neuroscientist who did her PhD on this at the University of Cape Town in South Africa to find out why it happens.
[00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:09.280] And she told me something that most scientists studying meth didn't tell me.
[00:15:09.280 --> 00:15:10.720] I love myth.
[00:15:11.040 --> 00:15:13.600] Like, I really, really enjoy it.
[00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:14.800] Have you tried it?
[00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:16.240] Yes, I have.
[00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:17.440] I have tried it.
[00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:22.080] Like, I totally understand why, like, somebody loves that drug.
[00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:27.840] Jen used to go to these dance parties in South Africa and she tried meth a handful of times.
[00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:32.400] How much were you thinking about your own experience as you were writing these studies?
[00:15:32.560 --> 00:15:33.280] All the time.
[00:15:33.280 --> 00:15:34.400] All the time.
[00:15:34.400 --> 00:15:39.200] Yeah, whenever it says, like, oh, euphoric experience, I'm like, uh-huh.
[00:15:41.760 --> 00:15:46.800] Did you worry about your brain as you were writing about all this neurotoxicity?
[00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:58.240] I mean, yeah, there were times where, like, you know, when you get really stuck and you can't think yourself out of a hole, like, oh, maybe I took too much.
[00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:00.000] Like, oh, did I f my brain up?
[00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:02.680] So I can't finish this thesis now.
[00:16:04.280 --> 00:16:05.880] Jen's joking here.
[00:16:05.880 --> 00:16:17.720] She was actually never that worried that taking a bit of meth a handful of times would stop her from finishing her thesis, largely because of that research that shows the brain can recover.
[00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:22.440] Anyway, we got to talking about why meth can cause psychosis.
[00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:28.120] And she told me that some of what's going on here is probably from sleep deprivation.
[00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:35.720] Meth can keep you up for days if you take enough of it, and that can make you go loopy in all kinds of ways.
[00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:38.680] But something else is happening here too.
[00:16:39.640 --> 00:16:56.760] So, right now, you are probably not on meth, and your brain cells are communicating, sending signals to each other in this orchestrated dance that allows you to listen to this podcast and not to think about other stuff swirling around your brain.
[00:16:56.760 --> 00:17:05.640] But because meth has these powerful effects on different chemicals in our brain, Jen says that it can scramble that dance.
[00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:05.960] Right.
[00:17:05.960 --> 00:17:10.600] And if you're not communicating properly, the signals get crossed.
[00:17:10.600 --> 00:17:18.680] For example, a really important thing that your brain does is that it inhibits or shushes certain signals.
[00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:20.760] But meth stops some of that from happening.
[00:17:20.760 --> 00:17:25.720] So all of a sudden, you're seeing things and thinking things that you wouldn't normally be.
[00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:36.440] Like, what about these satellites that might actually be, you know, controlled by the FBI or CIA and thoughts of like, I'm a pretty cool person.
[00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:40.360] Like, you go from I'm a very cool person to, oh, I'm God.
[00:17:40.360 --> 00:17:43.320] And why wouldn't I be God?
[00:17:43.320 --> 00:17:53.600] And you start creating those stories, and their brains just can't inhibit them and stop them at a point.
[00:17:53.600 --> 00:17:59.440] Everything is allowed to just.
[00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:10.400] And so studies find that quite a lot of people who use meth, we're talking maybe one in three, one in two, will get meth-associated psychosis.
[00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:15.360] But this is an experience they'll have while they're high.
[00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:20.400] Those thoughts should go away pretty soon after meth is out of their system.
[00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:25.040] So Tina, she only saw shadow people while she was taking meth.
[00:18:25.040 --> 00:18:29.360] And Theo only got paranoid like that when he was using heavily.
[00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:39.920] It is worth pointing out, though, that there are some unlucky folks who still get psychotic episodes even after they've stopped using meth.
[00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:44.160] And they can actually end up with a diagnosis of schizophrenia.
[00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:49.360] What's frustrating is that we don't know the chance that this will happen to you.
[00:18:49.360 --> 00:18:55.680] Researchers told me that it's rare, but your risk goes up the more meth that you use.
[00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:04.560] Now, if you are worried about getting schizophrenia, some research suggests that cannabis might be even riskier than meth.
[00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:07.120] So where does this leave us?
[00:19:07.120 --> 00:19:10.000] Will meth break your brain?
[00:19:10.320 --> 00:19:17.440] Well, while you're using it, it can give you psychosis and make you go a little bonkers.
[00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:23.520] But for a lot of users, if they can stay off meth, then their brain should actually get better.
[00:19:23.840 --> 00:19:27.120] But that is if you stop using meth.
[00:19:27.120 --> 00:19:29.920] So, what's the chance that if you start, you can get it?
[00:19:31.080 --> 00:19:35.080] That is how addictive is meth, really.
[00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:37.480] That's after the break.
[00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:40.840] Plus, a short pit stop at MethMouth.
[00:19:40.840 --> 00:19:42.040] Meth is bad.
[00:19:42.040 --> 00:19:45.480] It's gonna rot your teeth out of your head.
[00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:46.760] Coming out.
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[00:23:46.520 --> 00:23:52.840] So we are here with our little segment of Ask Me Anything with senior producer Rose Rimla.
[00:23:52.840 --> 00:23:53.400] Hi, Wendy.
[00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:57.000] And you've come to me with some questions from our lovely, lovely listeners.
[00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:07.400] D-Mac on Insta wants to know if you have had previous experience casting your voice for podcasts, radio, TV, what have you in the past.
[00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:09.160] And they say that it is perfect.
[00:24:09.160 --> 00:24:10.200] Well, thank you.
[00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:13.640] Um, no, I have not done any casting for my voice.
[00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:22.920] And in fact, early in my career, I was told that my voice is too low for radio.
[00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:24.600] Wow.
[00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:26.440] Not feminine enough?
[00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:27.480] Is that the idea?
[00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:29.080] That is the idea.
[00:24:29.080 --> 00:24:32.040] I think it was explicitly told to me not feminine enough.
[00:24:32.040 --> 00:24:41.720] And I was in fact given tips to speak, I'll do it now, higher up here in my voice.
[00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:48.240] Up here, and that that would be better for my career if I would speak like this.
[00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:48.960] I'm so confused.
[00:24:49.120 --> 00:24:52.720] You're either speaking too low or too high, or like you just can't get it right.
[00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:54.000] Like, you can't do anything right.
[00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:56.800] It's impossible to get it right.
[00:24:57.120 --> 00:24:59.920] I tried that for one report that I did.
[00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:06.080] This was not for size mess, it was for something else, and I just was so embarrassed and thought I sounded like such a fool.
[00:25:06.080 --> 00:25:07.200] I never did it again.
[00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:07.680] Wow.
[00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:09.120] So, thank you, D-Mac.
[00:25:09.280 --> 00:25:13.520] Yeah, D-Mac, you're healing old wounds here.
[00:25:13.840 --> 00:25:16.160] Okay, another one is from That Crazy Mr.
[00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:20.400] B on Insta, asking, What episode do you think about the most?
[00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:35.360] These days, I think I think about the microplastics episode the most because yeah, Rose, this was your episode because it really has changed what I do day to day.
[00:25:35.360 --> 00:25:39.120] It's annoying to not put plastics in the dishwasher.
[00:25:39.120 --> 00:25:42.640] Now I have to set them aside and I see them there.
[00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:46.960] Yeah, I love ruining things for everybody.
[00:25:47.040 --> 00:25:49.520] I don't eat my canned chickpeas anymore.
[00:25:49.520 --> 00:25:50.960] What about you, Rose?
[00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:58.720] Oh, I think about Meryl's toothbrushing episode a lot because sometimes I'm like, do I really need to brush my teeth?
[00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:03.280] I guess it's just made me aware of like there's no magic to toothbrushing.
[00:26:03.280 --> 00:26:06.080] It's just like exposing your teeth to fluoride.
[00:26:06.080 --> 00:26:12.480] Therefore, like, I feel like I can let myself have chocolate on my teeth for longer.
[00:26:12.800 --> 00:26:15.520] Giving me some weird and bad habits, I would say.
[00:26:18.800 --> 00:26:21.760] I don't think that was the message of the episode.
[00:26:21.760 --> 00:26:26.800] I think I was berated for my chocolate eating as part of that episode.
[00:26:26.800 --> 00:26:31.400] Somehow, it's made me like loosey or goosier with my oral hygiene.
[00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:32.840] Thanks, Rose.
[00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:33.640] Thanks, Wendy.
[00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:38.200] Today's Ask Me Anything was brought to you by Amazon.
[00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:41.560] Thanks to Amazon, healthcare just got less painful.
[00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:49.160] Welcome back today on the show, methamphetamine.
[00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:52.440] Next up, meth mouth.
[00:26:52.440 --> 00:27:00.680] There's this idea that meth is so bad for your teeth that it'll make them fall out and your gums will turn black.
[00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:11.560] And for one of our listeners, we'll call them Fallon, they said that after smoking meth for just a couple of years, a few of their back teeth were pretty messed up.
[00:27:11.560 --> 00:27:14.040] They were so bad.
[00:27:14.040 --> 00:27:15.400] It was horrendous.
[00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:17.720] I was like, this is, this can't be real.
[00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:22.760] It was like, like the back ones, there was no white on it and it was gum.
[00:27:22.760 --> 00:27:23.320] Wow.
[00:27:23.320 --> 00:27:24.680] Just from decay.
[00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:25.240] Wow.
[00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:27.880] Yeah, they were horrible.
[00:27:28.200 --> 00:27:40.120] And a study of more than 500 heavy meth users found that just under a third of them had six or more missing teeth, which is quite a bit higher than the general population.
[00:27:40.120 --> 00:27:45.400] Meth users also have higher rates of holes in their teeth and gum disease.
[00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:50.360] And this all makes sense based on everything we've heard about meth, right?
[00:27:50.360 --> 00:27:51.800] Meth is bad.
[00:27:51.800 --> 00:27:54.760] It's gonna rot your teeth out of your head.
[00:27:54.760 --> 00:27:55.960] Don't do it.
[00:27:55.960 --> 00:27:56.680] And this is.
[00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:58.520] Hi, my name is Kate O'Malley.
[00:27:58.520 --> 00:28:04.360] I'm a researcher at Columbia University Department of Psychology and at the New York State Psychiatric Institute.
[00:28:04.360 --> 00:28:07.080] And then just tell us how many times you've tried meth.
[00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:16.880] So I asked Kate, does meth eat away at your gums and teeth?
[00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:17.760] No.
[00:28:17.760 --> 00:28:24.400] You know, it's very unlikely that methamphetamine itself is eating away at your teeth.
[00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:30.800] There's this idea that the smoke from smoking meth is acidic and eats away at your teeth, which is why you lose them.
[00:28:30.800 --> 00:28:47.360] But a study of 300 folks who were dependent on meth found that IV users were actually way more likely to be missing teeth than those who smoked meth, which the researchers said belies the common notions about the corrosive effects of meth.
[00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:50.080] So what is going on here?
[00:28:50.400 --> 00:29:04.000] Well, Kate told me that meth can make you grind your teeth and also some people get a really dry mouth from using meth, which could be bad because saliva helps protect your teeth from tooth decay.
[00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:19.040] But Kate, as well as some other researchers, have suggested that there could be a much simpler explanation for what's happening here, which is that when you get high a lot, you just might not take good care of your teeth.
[00:29:19.040 --> 00:29:28.640] And researchers found that chronic meth users tend to drink a lot of sugary drinks and sometimes aren't so great at dental care.
[00:29:29.280 --> 00:29:30.160] Here's Kate.
[00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:34.720] Perhaps they're not brushing their teeth and flossing twice a day.
[00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:36.400] Are you surprised by this?
[00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:39.440] I mean, those are Occam's race are sometimes the simplest answer.
[00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:41.360] It's the most likely.
[00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:48.880] Looking at the research, it just doesn't seem like meth is uniquely bad for your teeth.
[00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:57.360] Like a study of almost 60 drug users found that the teeth of heroin users was just as bad as the teeth of meth users.
[00:29:57.360 --> 00:30:04.680] And researchers found that when meth users do brush their teeth, they're less likely to have crappy teeth.
[00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:16.440] Quite a few of the folks that I spoke to who had used meth were actually so paranoid about getting so-called meth mouth that they made sure that they took care of their teeth.
[00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:17.480] Like Tina.
[00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:19.640] I still, first of all, I still have all my teeth.
[00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:20.360] Okay.
[00:30:21.320 --> 00:30:23.320] I still have all my teeth.
[00:30:23.320 --> 00:30:24.040] Excellent teeth.
[00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:24.600] Thank you.
[00:30:24.600 --> 00:30:25.320] So what?
[00:30:25.320 --> 00:30:29.000] Can I just say, you could be on a Colgate commercial?
[00:30:29.320 --> 00:30:29.960] Thank you.
[00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:30.440] Thank you.
[00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:35.080] It would be crust white strips because those are the ones that I use.
[00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:37.480] And so were you brushing your teeth?
[00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:39.560] Is that why you think you were fine?
[00:30:39.960 --> 00:30:42.440] I was still brushing my teeth.
[00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:50.200] It may not have been at the exact cadence that a normal person would be brushing their teeth, but I was still brushing my teeth.
[00:30:50.200 --> 00:30:52.200] So that's meth mouth.
[00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:55.880] A little more alliteration than science.
[00:30:56.200 --> 00:31:07.560] But as I was researching about meth and its effects on the body, I realized that there are some other less well-known things that I really wanted people to know about.
[00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:12.040] And one of them is the toll that meth can take on your heart.
[00:31:12.040 --> 00:31:18.280] Meth can increase inflammation in your blood vessels, increasing your risk of getting a serious heart disease.
[00:31:18.280 --> 00:31:19.320] Here's Martin again.
[00:31:19.320 --> 00:31:24.360] With methamphetamine, you can see 20-year-olds having strokes.
[00:31:24.360 --> 00:31:26.840] You can have 20-year-olds having heart attacks.
[00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:32.920] And in fact, in the US, more and more people are dying from meth overdoses.
[00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:38.680] It's actually the second most common kind of drug to die from after opioids.
[00:31:38.680 --> 00:31:46.480] People who die with meth in their system aren't just dying from heart attacks, but also things like suicide and car accidents.
[00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:53.600] Okay, our next question: Is meth the most addictive drug in the world?
[00:31:53.600 --> 00:31:56.800] You know, remember those ads from the start of the show?
[00:31:56.800 --> 00:31:58.000] Oh, man.
[00:31:58.480 --> 00:31:59.200] Meth.
[00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:00.720] Oh, not that one.
[00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:05.840] The other ones that were like, I went to a party, I tried it once, and now my life is ruined.
[00:32:05.840 --> 00:32:08.080] Well, is that true?
[00:32:08.080 --> 00:32:11.040] Is that how addictive meth really is?
[00:32:11.360 --> 00:32:20.400] And, you know, because meth has those powerful effects on our brain, it does make sense that it would be super, super addictive.
[00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:28.240] And so I talked to our breaking bad fan and neuroscientist, Martin Paulus, about this.
[00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:30.640] Can you just try meth once and walk away?
[00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:33.440] The answer to that is certainly yes.
[00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:41.840] Only a minority of people who are exposed to the drug will actually become dependent or develop use disorder.
[00:32:41.840 --> 00:32:45.600] So it's not, it's like inevitable.
[00:32:45.600 --> 00:32:52.400] It's not like it wipes out your entire brain and you're kind of a slave to the drug the moment you take it.
[00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:54.000] It's just not like that.
[00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:07.360] This huge survey on the drug use of millions of folks in the US found that in 2023, over 16 million people said that they had used meth at least once in their lifetime.
[00:33:07.360 --> 00:33:13.840] And around 11% of those were classified as having a meth use disorder.
[00:33:13.840 --> 00:33:24.640] So based on that metric, roughly one in 10 people who tried meth are currently classified as having a meth addiction or meth use disorder.
[00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:30.280] And when you compare meth to other drugs, it actually doesn't stand out.
[00:33:30.600 --> 00:33:38.600] So, based on that huge survey, slightly more people who'd ever used POT ended up with a POT use disorder.
[00:33:38.920 --> 00:33:43.800] More people who had tried alcohol ended up with an alcohol use disorder.
[00:33:43.800 --> 00:33:47.480] Another study from the 90s found basically the same thing.
[00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:57.480] I mean, in that study, they included tobacco, and you were three times more likely to become dependent on tobacco versus stimulants like meth.
[00:33:58.120 --> 00:34:00.680] And I don't know if you're surprised about this.
[00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:04.120] I definitely was when I first read about it.
[00:34:04.120 --> 00:34:26.680] But the researchers I spoke to were not because they told me, well, yeah, you know, the reason that you get addicted to a substance, it's driven by the chemicals in the drug, but also a whole bunch of other things like what your friends are doing, what you have easy access to, what society says is kind of acceptable.
[00:34:27.640 --> 00:34:33.720] The use disorder is more than just, you know, the kick of dopamine.
[00:34:33.720 --> 00:34:36.760] Yes, that explains some element of it, no question.
[00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:38.680] But it's not the only thing.
[00:34:38.680 --> 00:34:47.160] So I think, based on the research, meth does not deserve its reputation as this drug that's going to get everyone hooked.
[00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:51.720] But there is something about meth's reputation that's right.
[00:34:51.720 --> 00:34:58.920] Here's the kicker: the rapidity with which you develop methamphetamine use disorder is unbelievable.
[00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:08.280] Mutton means that the speed that you can go from feeling in control of your drug use to being addicted to meth can be pretty fast.
[00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:30.720] There was this one survey of almost 300 meth-dependent users, and it found that on average, the time it took them to go from trying it once to then having a meth use disorder was around three months, which is quite a bit faster according to other research than for alcohol, cocaine, or cannabis.
[00:35:31.680 --> 00:35:41.360] So, while the majority of people who try meth will actually never get addicted to it, for those who do, it's very, it can be very terrible.
[00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:42.640] You know, you're down the cliff.
[00:35:42.640 --> 00:35:45.120] I mean, it's uh, that's the point.
[00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:54.960] And this is where that stereotype, or even the people that you see using meth in the news, this is where it really comes from.
[00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:58.720] It's the minority of users who fall far.
[00:35:59.040 --> 00:36:09.120] And for most of the people that I spoke to about their meth use, the ones that you're hearing from, their meth use, it actually did get pretty bad.
[00:36:09.120 --> 00:36:20.720] So, that listener from the start of the show, who at first felt really twinkly, like she was from Twilight when she started using meth, she ended up getting arrested twice.
[00:36:20.720 --> 00:36:27.040] Others lost jobs, got kicked out of their home, found themselves in really dangerous situations.
[00:36:27.040 --> 00:36:34.640] Theo, who started using meth in his late teens, remembers when his addiction had well and truly set in.
[00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:37.760] I couldn't stop using it, I couldn't stop thinking about it.
[00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:43.840] I mean, I was like stealing it from people that I was hooking up with, using everything that I had really fast.
[00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:54.160] And it got to a point where right around 21, I was like in my carpet, like looking through the carpet for like little shards of meth to put in a pipe and try to smoke.
[00:36:54.160 --> 00:37:00.000] I remember like vacuuming and like emptying the vacuum on my desk and like trying to like dig out little shards.
[00:37:00.120 --> 00:37:02.760] And we had a cat in this house that we lived at.
[00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:06.120] And I mean, that you know, kitty litter looks a lot.
[00:37:06.120 --> 00:37:09.400] There's like these crystals in kitty litter that looks a lot like it.
[00:37:09.400 --> 00:37:12.200] And I remember kind of just tasting gross stuff.
[00:37:12.200 --> 00:37:16.520] You know, I'd put stuff in the pipe and just try to get something out of it.
[00:37:16.520 --> 00:37:17.960] I mean, I was so desperate.
[00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:20.840] Yeah, the addiction was like full on.
[00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:22.920] There was no stopping it.
[00:37:23.240 --> 00:37:26.200] Theo knew the day he had to quit.
[00:37:26.200 --> 00:37:27.400] He was in his room.
[00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:31.560] He could hear his sister on the phone with his mom who lives in Mexico.
[00:37:31.560 --> 00:37:35.480] He's got a really good relationship with them both, loves them a lot.
[00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:40.600] And Theo could hear them talking about him and how bad he was doing.
[00:37:40.600 --> 00:37:46.840] And I remember being getting really angry and opening the door to like confront them and like nobody was there.
[00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:50.040] I felt it rock my core and I'm like, oh my God.
[00:37:50.040 --> 00:37:54.920] I may have imagined that, but I think that's like my subconscious trying to fight for me.
[00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:57.080] Like there's this part of me that wants to live.
[00:37:57.080 --> 00:38:00.600] There's this part of me that wants to not do this anymore.
[00:38:00.600 --> 00:38:11.800] Like there's a part of me that's just like so tired of like the really dark life, the situations, the hearing the voices, the like the financial insecurity, the like feeling so alone.
[00:38:11.800 --> 00:38:14.840] Like it just got to a point where I just, I was tired.
[00:38:14.840 --> 00:38:19.080] And if, and if I didn't do anything, like I felt like I was gonna die.
[00:38:19.080 --> 00:38:24.200] If I didn't do it myself, like something was gonna kill me.
[00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:31.800] So I just felt like it was like, I don't know, I'm not a religious person, but it felt like very spiritual to me.
[00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:36.200] It was like something wanted me to live.
[00:38:36.520 --> 00:38:37.000] Yeah.
[00:38:37.560 --> 00:38:39.560] So, what did you do next?
[00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:48.480] I actually texted my sister and I said, hey, I want to be honest.
[00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:49.680] I have a problem.
[00:38:49.680 --> 00:38:56.080] I've been using meth for so long and I needed help.
[00:38:56.080 --> 00:39:06.080] And I remember just immediately her calling me and like just bawling and being like, You know, you're, I will, we will help you.
[00:39:06.080 --> 00:39:07.200] You are fine.
[00:39:07.200 --> 00:39:10.560] We love you and we just want you to be better.
[00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:22.240] And I don't know why I just was so scared because I thought they were going to reject me and just be like, you know, that's disgusting.
[00:39:22.240 --> 00:39:22.880] You're on your own.
[00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:23.360] I don't know.
[00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:28.720] I just thought like there was a chance that they just wouldn't respond the way that they had.
[00:39:29.040 --> 00:39:34.160] And once you are addicted like this, it can be hard to quit.
[00:39:34.160 --> 00:39:40.640] The stats are a little all over the place, depending on stuff like how long the studies follow people for.
[00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:54.160] But as an example, there was this one US study of more than 300 meth users who went to an LA treatment center, and they found that around 40% stayed off meth for the first year.
[00:39:54.160 --> 00:39:58.640] Five years later, only 13% were abstinent.
[00:39:58.640 --> 00:40:04.080] Another survey, slightly better results, 25% were abstinent.
[00:40:04.080 --> 00:40:07.360] So one in four five years later.
[00:40:07.680 --> 00:40:12.960] Theo ended up going to AA and narcotics anonymous meetings.
[00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:19.280] He's relapsed a few times, which according to one study, it happens to about half of those who try NA.
[00:40:19.600 --> 00:40:25.200] But he told me that it's never gotten as bad as it was that first time.
[00:40:25.200 --> 00:40:26.960] And he's doing much better now.
[00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:29.040] Theo has gone back to college.
[00:40:29.040 --> 00:40:31.320] He's almost finished a math degree.
[00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:34.920] And now here I am, and now I'm like super happy and proud.
[00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:37.000] I'm really excited to see what you do next.
[00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:37.720] Yeah.
[00:40:37.720 --> 00:40:38.280] Thank you.
[00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:40.040] Yeah, I'm excited.
[00:40:40.040 --> 00:40:47.480] For Tina, when her boyfriend at the time got a job overseas, she saw it as this opportunity to stop using.
[00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:53.720] And actually, when Tina told her mom, I'm leaving, they had this big fight.
[00:40:53.720 --> 00:40:57.800] And she was like, you're moving to Europe so you can do drugs.
[00:40:57.800 --> 00:41:00.920] And I screamed back at her, I was like, you don't understand.
[00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:02.600] The drugs are here.
[00:41:02.920 --> 00:41:05.000] I need to leave here.
[00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:07.160] And we left.
[00:41:07.160 --> 00:41:08.280] We moved.
[00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:14.200] I was ready to walk away, but I couldn't stop myself when it was in front of me.
[00:41:14.200 --> 00:41:16.920] So if it wasn't in front of me, I was thrilled.
[00:41:16.920 --> 00:41:19.640] I was so good to just keep going.
[00:41:19.640 --> 00:41:23.320] So now I graduated back in May.
[00:41:23.320 --> 00:41:28.040] I have a great job that I love, and I have totally turned my shit around.
[00:41:28.680 --> 00:41:31.400] She's been off meth for almost 10 years.
[00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:37.720] And in fact, a few of our listeners that you heard from stopped using by basically walking away.
[00:41:37.720 --> 00:41:39.080] Researchers like Dr.
[00:41:39.080 --> 00:41:46.520] Krista Seifraid at the University of New South Wales in Sydney are now looking into new ways to help folks with meth dependence.
[00:41:46.520 --> 00:41:48.440] And some are pretty surprising.
[00:41:48.440 --> 00:41:55.880] Like there's therapy, CBT for meth, where you teach people coping strategies around cravings.
[00:41:55.880 --> 00:42:07.160] So for example, how to surf an urge to use methamphetamine, how to urge surf, how to be able to sit with that discomfort and wait until it passes.
[00:42:07.720 --> 00:42:09.160] How do you surf the urge?
[00:42:09.160 --> 00:42:10.520] What's one tip?
[00:42:10.520 --> 00:42:23.600] They actually visualize the wave and the fact that the wave, you can actually watch the wave as it crests and it gets bigger and it feels like it's going to be overwhelming, but eventually it does actually crash and then recede.
[00:42:23.600 --> 00:42:34.320] There's also these pretty cool programs out there that will give people a bit of money when they can show that they haven't been using meth and that has been found to help.
[00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:38.800] And researchers are also looking into medications that we could use here.
[00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:46.080] Like, you know how we use methadone to help people with opioid addiction or nicotine patches for nicotine addiction?
[00:42:46.080 --> 00:42:52.960] Well, one of the things that Krista is currently researching is ADHD medication.
[00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:57.040] Not meth, but a drug called Lizdex amphetamine.
[00:42:57.040 --> 00:43:02.800] And their early research is showing that it really could help some people use less meth.
[00:43:03.120 --> 00:43:11.040] As we were wrapping up, I asked Krista, do you think that meth has earned its reputation as one of the scariest drugs out there?
[00:43:11.040 --> 00:43:14.000] No, I don't think that that's, I don't think that that's true.
[00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:21.680] I think what's I think what's happened is that meth has earned itself a reputation whereby it's highly stigmatized.
[00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:24.320] So I don't think it's that it's the scariest drug out there.
[00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:27.200] I think that it's a highly misunderstood drug.
[00:43:27.200 --> 00:43:32.160] Do you know current working title for this episode is Meth the Most Misunderstood Drug?
[00:43:32.160 --> 00:43:33.200] Question mark.
[00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:37.360] Well done.
[00:43:37.680 --> 00:43:41.280] Love getting an A plus from a scientist.
[00:43:43.520 --> 00:43:49.760] So when it comes to Zeitz versus meth, is it the most misunderstood drug?
[00:43:50.080 --> 00:44:00.000] Well, I had thought that meth was this uniquely hyper-addictive drug that was terrible for your brain and even rotted your teeth.
[00:44:00.680 --> 00:44:05.240] And now that I know the evidence, it's definitely a naughty drug.
[00:44:05.240 --> 00:44:07.400] It's in the naughty pile.
[00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:09.800] But it's just a drug.
[00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:17.400] You know, it can be fun, but also, particularly if you take a lot of it, it can have some pretty nasty consequences.
[00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:19.800] You want to be careful here.
[00:44:20.120 --> 00:44:22.120] I don't know if I'd try it.
[00:44:22.120 --> 00:44:23.640] Probably not.
[00:44:24.280 --> 00:44:29.480] But you might catch me humming a little ditty about it.
[00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:32.200] Oh, meth, mm, meth.
[00:44:32.200 --> 00:44:37.880] I don't sleep and I don't eat, but I've got the cleanest house on the street.
[00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:40.360] Oh, meth, mm, meth.
[00:44:41.320 --> 00:44:43.560] That's science versus.
[00:44:43.560 --> 00:44:47.800] This episode has 114 citations in it.
[00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:56.360] So if you want to read more about anything that I've said on the show or you're curious, then you can find these citations by looking in the show notes.
[00:44:56.360 --> 00:44:58.280] And then there's a link to a transcript.
[00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:04.280] And you click on that transcript and then you'll see where we basically get our information from.
[00:45:04.600 --> 00:45:08.440] If you want to let me know what you thought of the episode, I would love to hear from you.
[00:45:08.440 --> 00:45:12.120] I'm on TikTok at WendyZuckerman, is how you can find me.
[00:45:12.120 --> 00:45:16.200] Science versus is on Instagram, science underscore VS.
[00:45:16.200 --> 00:45:18.440] So come and say hello.
[00:45:18.440 --> 00:45:30.920] And for all of you folks who saw that call out on Instagram saying that I was looking for people to talk to about their meth use and you are up for a chat, I just want to say thank you so much.
[00:45:30.920 --> 00:45:37.400] It was so lovely chatting with all of you, and I just, I really appreciate that you took the time to talk to me.
[00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:38.600] Thank you.
[00:45:38.920 --> 00:45:50.640] And if you are struggling with your drug use and maybe you want to change your relationship with the drugs that you're using, we're going to put some resources in our show notes.
[00:45:57.600 --> 00:46:04.160] This episode was produced by me, Wendy Zuckerman, with help from Meryl Horn, Rose Rimler, Michelle Dang, and Aketi Foster Keys.
[00:46:04.160 --> 00:46:05.840] We're edited by Blythe Terrell.
[00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:08.000] Fact-checking by Erica Akiko-Howard.
[00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:10.080] Mix and sound design by Bobby Lorde.
[00:46:10.080 --> 00:46:15.200] Music written by Bobby Lord, Bumi Hidaka, So Wiley, Emma Munger, and Peter Leonard.
[00:46:15.200 --> 00:46:19.440] Thanks to all of the researchers that I spoke to for this episode, including Dr.
[00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:22.400] Heather Barkoltz, Professor Nadine Ezard, Dr.
[00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:23.680] Nicole Lee, Dr.
[00:46:23.680 --> 00:46:25.120] Samantha Brooks, Dr.
[00:46:25.120 --> 00:46:28.240] Steph Kershaw, Professor Stephen Shoptor, Dr.
[00:46:28.240 --> 00:46:33.280] Susan Calcatera, Professor Harriet DeWitt, and Professor Edith London.
[00:46:33.280 --> 00:46:36.480] A special thanks to the Zuckerman family and Joseph LaBelle-Wilson.
[00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:39.040] Science Versus is a Spotify studios original.
[00:46:39.040 --> 00:46:43.040] You can listen to us for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:46:43.040 --> 00:46:50.880] And wherever you are listening, if you like the show, we'd love if you gave us a five-star review because it helps other people find the show.
[00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:53.920] Hear more about science, which is great.
[00:46:54.160 --> 00:47:01.920] If you are listening on Spotify, though, you can follow us and tap the bell icon so you get notifications when new episodes come out.
[00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:03.440] I'm Wendy Zuckerman.
[00:47:03.440 --> 00:47:04.960] Back to you next time.
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