The Joe Rogan Experience

#2452 - Roger Avary

February 11, 2026

Key Takeaways Copied to clipboard!

  • The conversation begins with humorous anecdotes about famous actors' recording mishaps, specifically William Shatner mispronouncing 'sabotage' and Orson Welles' famous Gallo wine commercials. 
  • Orson Welles' filmmaking genius, particularly in *Citizen Kane* (1941), is highlighted through discussions of his innovative camera techniques, such as digging holes for low-angle shots and complex tracking shots, which were technically advanced for the time. 
  • The discussion contrasts the deliberate, costly nature of filmmaking on physical film with modern digital cinema, arguing that digital's ease of use and immediate feedback (Video Village) can diminish the 'lightning in a bottle' magic and spontaneity of performance that characterized older filmmaking. 
  • The speakers critically reviewed several Ridley Scott films, finding *The Last Duel* to be one of the best films of the century while panning *Napoleon* and *Exodus: Gods and Kings* for weak dialogue despite strong spectacle. 
  • The conversation heavily explored themes of societal manipulation, predictive programming, and hidden cabals, citing the recently released Epstein files and the collapse of World Trade Center Building 7 as evidence of widespread deception. 
  • A significant portion of the discussion involved fringe theories, including the idea that history has been falsified by about a thousand years (Fomenko's New Chronology) and the experiential observation that the Earth appears flat for practical navigation purposes. 
  • The discussion heavily features arguments supporting the experiential perception of a flat Earth, citing pilot manuals and the lack of perceived curvature from low altitudes, despite acknowledging the scientific consensus of a globe. 
  • The conversation delves into esoteric topics, including the numerical value (Gematria) of ancient Hebrew words, the nature of reality as a simulation, and the possibility of hidden meanings encoded in films like *The Exorcist*. 
  • The participants explore the concept of evil, using examples like the actions of Jeffrey Epstein and the historical context of the atomic bomb, suggesting that evil often operates through justification rather than overt declaration. 
  • Roger Avary gained a new appreciation for the story of Jesus after watching the show *The Chosen*, interpreting Jesus as "punk rock" for challenging established rules. 
  • Dallas Jenkins, the director of *The Chosen*, is praised by Avary as a brilliant modern filmmaker for successfully creating a show centered on forgiveness, which Avary contrasts with Hollywood's typical focus on wrath and revenge. 
  • Roger Avary found it significantly easier to secure funding for three new films by attaching the term "AI" to his technology-based company than by pursuing traditional independent filmmaking routes. 

Segments

Celebrity ADR Bloopers
Copied to clipboard!
(00:00:12)
  • Key Takeaway: William Shatner famously insisted on pronouncing ‘sabotage’ his way during ADR recording.
  • Summary: The segment opened with references to classic behind-the-scenes moments, including William Shatner correcting studio staff on the pronunciation of ‘sabotage.’ This led to a recollection of Orson Welles’ outtakes while recording Gallo wine commercials, where he expressed frustration between takes.
Orson Welles’ Citizen Kane Genius
Copied to clipboard!
(00:01:59)
  • Key Takeaway: Orson Welles’ career was significantly hampered by William Randolph Hearst following the release of Citizen Kane (1941).
  • Summary: The conversation detailed Orson Welles’ innovative filmmaking on Citizen Kane, noting he would physically alter the studio set, like digging a hole with a pickaxe, to achieve specific low camera angles. The meaning of ‘Rosebud’ was revealed to be a nickname for William Randolph Hearst’s girlfriend’s clitoris, serving as a low-level jab at Hearst. The film’s complex opening shot, involving a massive pull-back from a child in the snow through a window to reveal interior characters, required meticulous lighting and set mathematics.
Touch of Evil Cinematography
Copied to clipboard!
(00:06:24)
  • Key Takeaway: Orson Welles’ Touch of Evil (1958) features an opening sequence shot in Venice, California, masquerading as a Mexican border town.
  • Summary: The speakers praised the opening shot of Touch of Evil (1958), which is a complex single shot following characters while a bomb is set in a car trunk. This shot was technically difficult due to the heavy Mitchell BNCR camera, which required a large soundproofing blimp and multiple crew members to move. The film was shot in Venice, California, despite being set in Mexico.
Film vs. Digital Production
Copied to clipboard!
(00:08:32)
  • Key Takeaway: The transition from film to digital cinema has shifted production environments, moving decision-making away from the director on set to executives in ‘Video Village.’
  • Summary: The shift to digital filmmaking means that producers and executives watch an approximation of the final product immediately on set, contrasting with the film era where the director and DP had to wait for lab results to see the captured performance. Film required intense preparation because burning frames cost significant money, whereas digital encourages continuous rolling, potentially diminishing the actors’ captured moment. Digital cinema is inherently flatter than film because light strikes a sensor and bounces back, leading filmmakers to shoot into the sun to create lens flare for an illusion of depth.
Nostalgia and Cinematic Faults
Copied to clipboard!
(00:09:14)
  • Key Takeaway: Audiences have developed a nostalgic filter where the technical faults of old film (like dust and gate weave) are now associated with quality.
  • Summary: The speakers noted that modern techniques, like portrait mode on phones, artificially add faults that audiences associate with quality cinema. The faults of old film—sepia tone, dust, and gate weave—were originally technical imperfections corrected by projection, but are now intentionally added to digital footage to evoke an older feel. Contemporary cinema, especially blockbusters, often replicates the look of iPhone footage, sacrificing depth for a familiar vernacular.
Guillermo del Toro’s Filmography
Copied to clipboard!
(00:09:14)
  • Key Takeaway: Guillermo del Toro’s Frankenstein adaptation was criticized for being too long and melancholic, though the sequence where the creature learns language was highly praised.
  • Summary: The guest expressed admiration for Guillermo del Toro’s artistry but admitted to not loving most of his films, preferring Blade 2 for its accessibility. The learning-language sequence in Frankenstein was cited as the best part of the film, suggesting an entire movie could have been made just from that segment. Del Toro’s work is contrasted with Ridley Scott’s efficiency in dialogue scenes.
Vampire Movie Rankings
Copied to clipboard!
(00:09:14)
  • Key Takeaway: Werner Herzog’s Nosferatu (1979), starring Klaus Kinski, is considered a haunting masterpiece that influenced subsequent vampire films.
  • Summary: The discussion praised Werner Herzog’s Nosferatu for its melancholic wide shots and the intense, provocative performance of Klaus Kinski, whose relationship with Herzog is documented in My Best Fiend. The new Nosferatu film by the director of The Witch is considered a unique and haunting contribution to the genre, utilizing digital darkness effectively. What We Do in the Shadows was recommended as an outstanding, fun mockumentary take on vampire mythology.
Television Storytelling Decline
Copied to clipboard!
(00:09:14)
  • Key Takeaway: Modern television often relies on cheap emotional spikes (sadism/killing characters) rather than deep character investment, unlike classic shows like Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
  • Summary: The guest criticized modern television for prioritizing shock value over character development, contrasting this with the elaborate storytelling in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, which integrated themes like gender exploration naturally into good narratives. The recent Star Trek productions under Alex Kurtzman were heavily criticized for poor storytelling and prioritizing corporate propaganda over canon respect. The Orville, created by Seth MacFarlane, is suggested as a superior spiritual successor to classic Star Trek because it hired original writers and directors.
Critique of Ridley Scott Films
Copied to clipboard!
(01:00:05)
  • Key Takeaway: Joaquin Phoenix’s performance in a period piece was criticized as a failed intellectual attempt to portray Napoleon as a sociopath.
  • Summary: Joaquin Phoenix’s performance in a period piece was deemed a ‘dead, dead performance’ lacking passion, which the speakers attributed to an intellectual choice to portray a sociopath. The subsequent discussion criticized Ridley Scott’s Exodus: Gods and Kings for falling apart whenever dialogue occurred, despite strong chariot battle scenes. Joel Egerton’s casting as Ramses in Exodus was noted for his unexpected ‘butch’ portrayal and occasional Australian accent.
Praise for The Last Duel
Copied to clipboard!
(01:03:10)
  • Key Takeaway: Ridley Scott’s The Last Duel is considered one of the best films of the century due to its superior script and performances.
  • Summary: After avoiding it, the speaker found The Last Duel to be one of the best films of the century, praising the script written with Nicole Holofcener. Ben Affleck’s performance was described as hilarious and genius, while Adam Driver and Matt Damon delivered revelatory performances in the Rashomon-style narrative. The film effectively uses the structure of differing perspectives to comment on Hollywood dynamics, particularly regarding social inclusion through ‘orgies.’
Gladiator 1 vs. Gladiator 2
Copied to clipboard!
(01:05:42)
  • Key Takeaway: Gladiator 1 possessed a fantastic ‘secret sauce,’ whereas Gladiator 2 felt like it was merely going through the paces.
  • Summary: The speaker contrasted the magnificent quality of Gladiator 1 with the perceived mediocrity of Gladiator 2. Exodus: Gods and Kings was grouped with Gladiator 2 as boring to watch. Sigourney Weaver’s performance in Exodus was noted for appearing contemporary and uncommitted, as if she was only there for a paycheck.
The Counselor’s Dark Brilliance
Copied to clipboard!
(01:07:22)
  • Key Takeaway: Cormac McCarthy’s The Counselor is a spectacular, dark analysis of modern power structures dominated by an inescapable cartel.
  • Summary: The speaker initially mistook The Counselor for a romantic comedy but found it profoundly dark, leaving him feeling he knew ’too much about the world’ afterward. Written by Cormac McCarthy, the film depicts the modern world as being run by a giant cartel from which escape is impossible. Despite receiving terrible reviews upon release in 2013, the speaker believes its depiction of reality would resonate more if released today.
Epstein Files and Societal Numbness
Copied to clipboard!
(01:10:00)
  • Key Takeaway: The public’s apparent numbness to shocking revelations, like the Epstein files, suggests a societal conditioning or spell cast by powerful entities.
  • Summary: The discussion referenced a viral video of a man panicking in an Atlanta airport after reading the Epstein files, highlighting a general societal apathy toward horrific truths. This numbness is linked to ‘predictive programming,’ where dark concepts (like demons eating babies) are introduced via media jokes (like Stephen Colbert’s skit) to condition the audience and make them complicit through laughter. The concept Mundus volt decepi, ergo decipiatur (the world wants to be deceived) explains why people avoid confronting these horrors.
Sulfuric Acid Purchase Order Controversy
Copied to clipboard!
(01:14:23)
  • Key Takeaway: The purchase order for six 55-gallon containers of sulfuric acid immediately following Jeffrey Epstein’s indictment strongly suggests illicit use, despite a plausible alternative explanation.
  • Summary: The release of emails showed Epstein ordered 330 gallons of sulfuric acid right after his indictment, which the speakers found highly suspicious given the context of torture videos and alleged sacrifices. A plausible counter-explanation suggested the acid was for maintaining a reverse osmosis seawater desalination facility on his island. However, the fact that this was his only documented purchase order for the chemical made the sinister interpretation more probable to the speakers.
Kubrick’s Cult Commentary
Copied to clipboard!
(01:19:40)
  • Key Takeaway: Stanley Kubrick’s Eyes Wide Shut clearly depicts a secret cult operating at high levels of power, despite critics attempting to debunk this interpretation.
  • Summary: The speaker noted that his previous commentary on the pedophile cult elements in Eyes Wide Shut went viral, drawing aggressive pushback from critics. Sidney Lumet’s character explicitly warns about the terrifying nature of the people involved, confirming the film’s theme of a secret, powerful cult. This secrecy functions as a confidence operation to compromise powerful individuals through illegal acts, ensuring their compliance.
Falsified History Theory
Copied to clipboard!
(01:22:38)
  • Key Takeaway: Anatoly Fomenko’s New Chronology theory posits that approximately one thousand years were added to the historical timeline to justify land claims, particularly concerning the erasure of Tartaria.
  • Summary: The speaker introduced the theory that history before 1600 has been falsified, suggesting that events like the Salem Witch Trials and Columbus’s voyage occurred much later than conventionally taught. Fomenko’s mathematical analysis suggests the Dark Ages represent a thousand-year gap inserted into the timeline to legitimize the land claims of the Eurasian Horde’s conquerors. This theory implies that Rome and Greece were active much later, around the 16th century.
9/11 and Controlled Demolition
Copied to clipboard!
(01:34:21)
  • Key Takeaway: The collapse of WTC Building 7, which fell into its base at near free-fall speed, is cited as highly suspicious evidence of a controlled demolition, unlike the collapses of Towers 1 and 2.
  • Summary: The discussion argued that the unity seen after 9/11 was based on a false premise, as evidence like Building 7’s collapse suggests internal manipulation. Structural engineers and eyewitnesses described sounds consistent with controlled demolition, and the building housed sensitive data from the CIA, NSA, and SEC, which conveniently disappeared. The uniform, top-down collapse of Building 7, unlike the progressive collapse of the Twin Towers, is considered the most bizarre and undeniable aspect of the event.
Predictive Programming in Film
Copied to clipboard!
(01:45:57)
  • Key Takeaway: Films produced by Arnon Milchan, identified as a Mossad agent, such as Fight Club and The Medusa Touch, feature imagery of building collapses and plane crashes that eerily predicted 9/11.
  • Summary: The speaker suggested that Fight Club (1999), produced by self-identified Mossad agent Arnon Milchan, served as a manifesto predicting the collapse of the financial system to create a new future. Milchan’s filmography includes The Medusa Touch, which features an airplane crashing into a building, suggesting these events are pre-planned scenarios leaked through media. This practice, known as predictive programming, is intended to desensitize the public to future catastrophic events.
Flat Earth Experiential Evidence
Copied to clipboard!
(01:57:34)
  • Key Takeaway: Experientially, the Earth appears flat, and navigation maps for air travel presume a flat Earth model.
  • Summary: The speaker argues that visually, the Earth is flat, and pilots do not make curvature corrections in manuals or practice, even at high speeds. This perspective is based on direct sensory experience rather than external data. Travel routes, such as flights over Antarctica, are cited as examples that align with a flat Earth map interpretation.
Critique of Space Imagery
Copied to clipboard!
(01:59:09)
  • Key Takeaway: Satellite photographs of Earth from space are dismissed as composite imagery or cartoons, potentially due to lens distortion.
  • Summary: The speaker suggests that images of a round, spinning Earth from space, including those from the International Space Station, are suspect. They claim that footage from the ISS is not high enough to see curvature, and any perceived curve is due to lens distortion. A visible line in one piece of footage is pointed out as evidence of stitching in composite imagery.
Cosmology and Faith in Science
Copied to clipboard!
(02:01:10)
  • Key Takeaway: Accepting the spherical nature of the Earth and the existence of space requires a degree of faith, similar to accepting other unprovable concepts.
  • Summary: The discussion questions the existence of space and suggests the moon might be a plasma effect. The speaker posits that accepting the globe model, like gravity, relies on faith because the data is too far removed from personal experience. Ancient cultures historically depicted the world in a flat-earth model covered by a firmament.
Gematria and Biblical Numerology
Copied to clipboard!
(02:07:48)
  • Key Takeaway: Ancient Hebrew language utilizes Gematria, where letters double as numbers, creating numerical values for words that are lost in translation to languages like Greek or Latin.
  • Summary: The Bible has been edited and translated multiple times, obscuring the original numerical significance of words. Gematria reveals hidden spiritual meanings by assigning numerical values to Hebrew letters, a system not preserved in Greek translations. The concept is linked to the film Pi and the idea that the universe is encoded in mathematics.
Gravity vs. Density/Buoyancy
Copied to clipboard!
(02:11:54)
  • Key Takeaway: Gravity is presented as a non-truly provable concept, as its effects can be explained equally well through density and buoyancy.
  • Summary: The speaker references Jeffrey Epstein’s views suggesting gravity is merely a concept invented to justify why objects fall. The classic flat-Earth challenge regarding why a bowling ball and feathers fall at the same rate in a vacuum is addressed by noting that a vacuum eliminates density as a factor, leaving only the force called gravity.
Precession of the Equinoxes
Copied to clipboard!
(02:22:12)
  • Key Takeaway: The 26,000-year axial precession cycle causes the North Star to change over millennia, a wobble that ancient cultures could predict.
  • Summary: Ancient peoples were aware of the precession of the equinoxes, which describes the wobble in Earth’s orbit. This wobble affects climate cycles and causes the visible North Star to shift over thousands of years, with Polaris being the current example. This predictable celestial motion demonstrates a sophisticated ancient understanding of the sky.
Conspiracy and Evil in Media
Copied to clipboard!
(02:32:40)
  • Key Takeaway: Evil, such as that potentially associated with the Epstein case or the justification for dropping the atomic bomb, is often enacted through finding justifications rather than overt demonic declaration.
  • Summary: The discussion shifts to the nature of deep-seated evil, noting that people struggle to accept the reality of profound wickedness. The speaker suggests demons, if real, would operate by influencing individuals to justify horrific acts, such as the bombing of Hiroshima or the alleged actions surrounding the AIDS crisis and gain-of-function research. The segment concludes by noting that media, like film, can act as a ‘magic spell’ or predictive programming.
Hidden Meanings in The Exorcist
Copied to clipboard!
(02:47:07)
  • Key Takeaway: The film The Exorcist may encode a narrative suggesting the demonic possession stemmed from sexual trauma inflicted by the film-within-a-film’s director on the actress’s daughter.
  • Summary: The director of the film within The Exorcist, J. Lee Thompson, is implicated as the source of the trauma that invoked the possession, as the possessed girl speaks with a British accent, matching the director’s. William Peter Blatty, the author, reportedly hinted at this connection when asked about Thompson. The presence of a ‘pizza’ reference in the dialogue is noted as a potential link to contemporary conspiracy theories.
The Show The Chosen
Copied to clipboard!
(02:57:00)
  • Key Takeaway: The crowdfunded series The Chosen provides a punk-rock, rule-breaking interpretation of Jesus’s story that offered the speaker a new understanding of the Gospels.
  • Summary: Despite having seen many Jesus films, the speaker found that The Chosen, directed by Dallas Jenkins, provided a breakthrough understanding of Jesus as someone who rejected rigid rules. The show is noted for its low-budget, contemporary script style but is praised as brilliant and accessible for free viewing on its dedicated app.
Appreciation for The Chosen
Copied to clipboard!
(02:58:34)
  • Key Takeaway: Roger Avary realized Jesus in The Chosen embodies a punk rock ethos by rejecting rules and emphasizing salvation.
  • Summary: Avary initially dismissed the show due to its low production value, but by episode three, he understood the core message. He perceived Jesus as punk rock for advocating that there are no rules, only the desire for salvation. This realization felt like a ’third eye opened up’ to him, leading him to call the show fantastic.
The Chosen Distribution and Sets
Copied to clipboard!
(02:59:05)
  • Key Takeaway: The Chosen is widely accessible for free via its dedicated app, YouTube, and potentially Netflix, mirroring the distribution model of the Gideons Bible.
  • Summary: The show’s director, Dallas Jenkins, is highly regarded by Avary. After initial low-budget seasons, the production utilized existing, incredible standing sets built by Mormons in Utah for biblical productions, which helped create detailed environments like ancient Judea. The creators give the show away freely, making it accessible anywhere.
Hollywood Themes vs. Forgiveness
Copied to clipboard!
(03:00:25)
  • Key Takeaway: Hollywood’s primary fuel is revenge and wrath, making themes of forgiveness, like those in The Chosen, significantly more difficult and mature to produce.
  • Summary: Avary notes that loving the characters in The Chosen stems from its focus on forgiveness, a difficult subject for mainstream cinema. He argues that wrath and revenge drive most Hollywood movies. Jenkins’ achievement lies in consistently focusing on forgiveness across all episodes based on the Gospels.
AI vs. Traditional Filmmaking
Copied to clipboard!
(03:02:08)
  • Key Takeaway: Attaching the term “AI” to a technology-based company instantly attracted investment, allowing Avary to greenlight three films quickly, contrasting sharply with traditional independent film struggles.
  • Summary: Avary finds it nearly impossible to get traditional independent films made by hitting the pavement. However, by building an AI technology company, he secured funding for a Christmas movie, a faith-based film, and a romantic war epic. He notes that visual effects costs have drastically dropped, making high-quality production more accessible.
NASA Feed Interruption Explanation
Copied to clipboard!
(03:04:50)
  • Key Takeaway: When the live NASA feed from the International Space Station (ISS) goes offline, the channel automatically switches to a 3D simulation model showing the satellite’s current location.
  • Summary: The hosts investigate why a specific feed appeared to be a simulation rather than live footage. The video description confirms that the channel switches to a simulation showing the ISS above Earth when the connection is lost. This simulation includes visible stars, unlike the actual live feed showing the Earth.