The Jordan Harbinger Show

1276: Coltan Scrivner | The Evolutionary Logic of Morbid Curiosity

January 27, 2026

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  • Morbid curiosity, defined as an interest in dangerous things, is a feature of the human brain that likely evolved to provide a survival advantage by learning about threats, rather than being solely a sign of moral deficiency. 
  • Horror movies often rely on a specific formula involving a very powerful, overwhelming villain and a vulnerable protagonist, which triggers morbid curiosity by presenting a seemingly insurmountable threat. 
  • Interest in true crime is often driven by the need to understand proactively aggressive individuals—who plan attacks without warning—and to learn cues to spot such dangerous people in the real world. 
  • Morbid curiosity is an evolutionary instinct for prey animals to gather crucial information about threats, which humans extend through storytelling and media consumption because it is a 'cheap' way to learn about danger without real risk. 
  • The specific focus of morbid curiosity often differs by gender, with women tending toward learning about the minds of dangerous people (e.g., true crime planning) and men showing more interest in the act of violence itself (e.g., watching combat sports simulations). 
  • Engaging with scary play or media, when done within a safe context (the 'Goldilocks zone' of fear), can build emotional resilience and help regulate fear and anxiety later in life. 

Segments

Episode Warning and Intro
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(00:00:00)
  • Key Takeaway: The episode contains violence and explicit themes, requiring listener discretion.
  • Summary: Jordan Harbinger opens the show with a warning that the episode contains violence and explicit themes, advising against playing it around children. He then introduces the show’s mission: decoding wisdom from fascinating people for practical advice.
Morbid Curiosity: Monkey Experiment
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(00:00:15)
  • Key Takeaway: An anecdote about monkeys observing danger signals a primal curiosity about threats.
  • Summary: Jordan discusses Darwin’s theory and an experiment involving monkeys seeing a snake in a bag. One monkey screams, and others are compelled to look because the first one survived, illustrating the initial draw to known danger.
Defining Morbid Curiosity
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(00:01:39)
  • Key Takeaway: The episode will explore why humans are drawn to disturbing content like horror and true crime.
  • Summary: The host frames the discussion around why people are drawn to objectively disturbing things (horror movies, car accidents, true crime) and questions whether morbid curiosity is an evolutionary bug or feature.
Coltan Mining Anecdote
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(00:02:31)
  • Key Takeaway: A personal story highlights the morally opaque nature of certain real-world interests.
  • Summary: Coltan Scrivner discusses his name similarity to the mineral Coltan, leading into a story about meeting a man mining Coltan in the Congo who carried $30,000 in gold, illustrating a morally questionable but fascinating real-world lens.
Morbid Curiosity: Lack of Science
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(00:06:02)
  • Key Takeaway: Morbid curiosity is a common phenomenon that lacked formal scientific study until recently.
  • Summary: The conversation shifts to the topic of morbid curiosity. Scrivner notes that despite everyone having examples of it, there was a surprising lack of scientific study on the topic until about five or six years prior.
Defining Morbid Curiosity as Interest in Danger
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(00:08:16)
  • Key Takeaway: Morbid curiosity is defined as an interest in things that are dangerous, encompassing both fiction and non-fiction.
  • Summary: Scrivner defines morbid curiosity as an interest in things that are dangerous, which can manifest in non-fiction (like true crime or news) or fiction (like horror movies that pull on cognitive strings related to threats).
Horror Film Formula: Vulnerable Protagonist
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(00:09:03)
  • Key Takeaway: Horror films are uniquely characterized by a very powerful villain overwhelming a weak or vulnerable protagonist.
  • Summary: Scrivner explains his analysis of horror films, finding a consistent formula: a distinctly powerful villain (like Pennywise) facing very vulnerable protagonists (like regular kids), which triggers morbid curiosity by showing how one approaches something terrible when vulnerable.
Predator vs. Horror Genre
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(00:12:07)
  • Key Takeaway: The movie Predator is not horror because the protagonists are too formidable, despite facing a powerful threat.
  • Summary: The discussion uses Predator as an edge case. Although it features a perfect hunting machine, the protagonists (Green Berets led by Schwarzenegger) are too capable and armed to fit the horror formula, where the hero is overwhelmed.
Ritualistic Fights and Formidability
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(00:15:12)
  • Key Takeaway: Humans and animals use displays (like lifted trucks) to fake formidability and avoid costly real fights.
  • Summary: The conversation touches on ritualistic fights in the animal kingdom (gorillas beating chests) as a way to fake size and avoid damage. This is compared to cultural displays in humans, like lifting trucks, to broadcast perceived strength.
Demographics of Horror and True Crime Fans
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(00:15:46)
  • Key Takeaway: Women consume true crime content at higher rates than men, challenging the stereotype that horror fans are morally bankrupt men.
  • Summary: Jordan and Scrivner note that many horror fans are women, and women are huge consumers of true crime podcasts, often outweighing male consumption in that specific genre.
Film Critics’ Misunderstanding of Horror
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(00:16:50)
  • Key Takeaway: Early film critics like Siskel and Ebert wrongly condemned horror fans as morally sick, ignoring tropes like the ‘Final Girl.’
  • Summary: Scrivner recounts how Siskel and Ebert attacked slasher films like Friday the 13th, labeling fans as hateful and sick. The host points out that the ‘Final Girl’ trope—a severely outmatched woman using smarts to win—is actually highly feminist.
Halloween and Cozy Morbidity
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(00:21:39)
  • Key Takeaway: For adults, Halloween provides a socially acceptable time to indulge in spooky interests without moral judgment.
  • Summary: The discussion moves to Halloween, which Scrivner suggests feels ‘cozy’ because it’s the one time of year when enjoying spooky themes (like the animatronic Leatherface) is seen as totally normal and acceptable.
Home Alone as Potential Horror
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(00:24:23)
  • Key Takeaway: Home Alone is not horror because the villains are incompetent, reducing their formidability.
  • Summary: Jordan asks if Home Alone fits the horror definition. Scrivner argues no, because Kevin outmatches the burglars through cleverness and their incompetence, meaning the protagonist is not truly overwhelmed.
Four Types of Morbid Curiosity
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(00:25:45)
  • Key Takeaway: Morbid curiosity is an overall trait expressed through interest in dangerous people, bodily injuries, and paranormal dangers.
  • Summary: Scrivner outlines four categories of morbid curiosity, starting with the general trait and then detailing interest in dangerous people (like true crime), which is linked to evolutionary preparedness against proactive aggression.
Proactive Aggression and True Crime
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(00:26:41)
  • Key Takeaway: Humans evolved proactive aggression (plotting attacks), making true crime necessary to learn about hidden threats.
  • Summary: Drawing on Richard Wrangham’s work, Scrivner explains that humans use proactive aggression (planning attacks) rather than just reactive aggression (like chimps). True crime focuses on the aggressor because we need to learn the story after the hidden plot has unfolded.
True Crime as Survival Advantage
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(00:34:05)
  • Key Takeaway: Learning about threats via true crime can create a feeling of empowerment and survival advantage, especially for women.
  • Summary: The host asks if listening to true crime gives listeners, particularly women, a real or imagined survival advantage by teaching them red flags and escape plans.
Rubbernecking and Bodily Injuries
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(00:34:55)
  • Key Takeaway: Looking at car accidents provides information about the consequences of danger and the formidability of the threat involved.
  • Summary: The discussion addresses rubbernecking. Scrivner suggests it’s about gathering information on the consequences of danger and assessing the threat level based on the severity of bodily injuries observed.
Folklore and Learning About Wolves
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(00:39:18)
  • Key Takeaway: Fables like Little Red Riding Hood served a practical purpose: teaching children about real, unseen dangers like wolves.
  • Summary: Scrivner explains that stories like Little Red Riding Hood were pedagogical tools to teach illiterate children what a wolf looked like and how it behaved, as their only other reference might be a domesticated, friendly dog.
Witches and Unseen Dangers
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(00:42:38)
  • Key Takeaway: Beliefs in witches and curses stem from the need to ascribe agency to unseen, dangerous forces like disease.
  • Summary: Witches are the most common bad guy globally, representing social outcasts who can harm from a distance. This maps onto the human tendency to ascribe agency (a person-like thing) to invisible misfortunes like disease, as seen in the guinea worm example.
Prey Inspecting Predators
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(00:46:07)
  • Key Takeaway: Prey animals must inspect predators under safe conditions to assess their current motivation to hunt, balancing risk against energy conservation.
  • Summary: The segment concludes by discussing how prey animals (like zebras near lions) must observe predators to determine if they are actively hunting, as constant flight would exhaust them. Gathering this information is an evolutionary incentive.
Prey Animals Inspecting Predators
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(00:47:28)
  • Key Takeaway: Prey animals gather information about resting predators to assess threat levels.
  • Summary: Discussion about how cats sleep extensively, and how prey animals like zebras and gazelles observe predators like lions and cheetahs when they are not actively hunting to assess danger.
Human Morbid Curiosity via Stories
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(00:48:27)
  • Key Takeaway: Humans learn about danger cheaply through stories, unlike other animals who must observe directly.
  • Summary: Contrasting animal learning with human ability to create realistic stories, which allows for unlimited, safe interaction with dangerous concepts, fueling morbid curiosity.
Fantasies of Violence and Cognitive Machinery
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(00:49:06)
  • Key Takeaway: Widespread fantasies about killing suggest the cognitive ability for violence exists, suppressed by consequences.
  • Summary: Discussion of David Buss’s study on homicide fantasies, concluding that the mental planning capacity for violence is present in most people.
Domains of Morbid Curiosity in Violence
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(00:50:07)
  • Key Takeaway: Morbid curiosity about violence covers predicting dangerous minds, observing outcomes, and witnessing the act itself.
  • Summary: Outlining the four dimensions of morbid curiosity related to violence: predicting dangerous minds, bodily injuries, supernatural threats, and witnessing violence (like true crime or UFC).
Gender Differences in Violence Simulation
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(00:51:06)
  • Key Takeaway: Women often focus on predicting dangerous individuals (pre-planning), while men focus on simulating the act of violence itself.
  • Summary: Comparing women’s interest in true crime (predicting danger from known associates) versus men’s interest in UFC/boxing (simulating face-to-face violence with strangers).
Moral Panic Over Violent Video Games
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(00:52:48)
  • Key Takeaway: Moral panic over games like Mortal Kombat led to the ESRB, but data shows no link to increased real-world violence.
  • Summary: Recounting the Mortal Kombat controversy, the resulting Senate hearings, and the creation of game rating systems, debunking the fear that simulated violence causes aggression.
Scary Play Builds Emotional Resilience
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(00:57:03)
  • Key Takeaway: Engaging in scary play, even as children, helps build resilience and skills for regulating fear and anxiety later in life.
  • Summary: Discussing how predator-prey games and scary media help practice emotion regulation, contrasting this with shielding children from all fear.
Why We Focus on Violent Outcomes
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(00:59:04)
  • Key Takeaway: We focus on the ‘why’ of violence to assess personal risk and determine if the danger was random or situational.
  • Summary: Analyzing why people seek details about murders (like the Devil’s Den incident) to calculate their own odds of victimization.
Morbid Curiosity and Emotional Complexity
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(01:01:07)
  • Key Takeaway: It is common to feel multiple emotions simultaneously, such as curiosity alongside sadness or disgust, especially toward important topics.
  • Summary: Addressing the downsides of morbid curiosity (like paranoia) and explaining that feeling bad about a tragedy doesn’t preclude being curious about its details.
Darwin’s Monkeys and Threat Learning
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(01:07:11)
  • Key Takeaway: The compulsion to investigate danger, even after being warned, is an ancient survival mechanism seen in primates.
  • Summary: Using Darwin’s anecdote about monkeys screaming after seeing a snake in a bag to illustrate the drive to learn about threats, even if the experience is awful.
Evolutionary Purpose of Dreams
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(01:15:01)
  • Key Takeaway: Dreams likely evolved as a threat simulation system to prepare the brain emotionally and mentally for dangers.
  • Summary: Exploring the complex machinery of dreaming across mammals and octopuses, suggesting it serves a vital function, likely threat rehearsal, given the energy required.
Horror Movies as Perspective Check
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(01:20:12)
  • Key Takeaway: Watching someone have the worst day of their life provides perspective, making one’s own daily struggles feel less severe.
  • Summary: Explaining why nervous people enjoy horror: comparing their manageable stress to the extreme peril on screen offers a psychological reality check.
Sweet Spot for Fear and Fun
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(01:22:58)
  • Key Takeaway: People maximize enjoyment from fear when it hits a ‘Goldilocks zone’—challenging but not overwhelming.
  • Summary: Detailing studies at haunted attractions showing that peak fun occurs when fear levels are around 7 or 8 out of 10, similar to optimal learning difficulty.
Why Human Childhood is Extended
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(01:26:30)
  • Key Takeaway: Human childhood is long because we require extensive time to learn complex food gathering and intricate social navigation.
  • Summary: Discussing the high energetic cost of childhood and why humans evolved extended juvenile stages to master the complexities of survival in diverse environments.