
#270 β Exiting for Millions in Under a Year with Shaan Puri and Ben Levy of The Milk Road
March 1, 2023
Key Takeaways
- Building a successful business, whether a newsletter or a podcast, often stems from a genuine interest and a desire to win, rather than solely focusing on immediate profit.
- The most effective way to grow an audience is through high-quality, organically shared content that compels people to seek out more, rather than relying on paid acquisition.
- True entrepreneurial success involves a deliberate choice to pursue ambitious goals, recognizing that both small and large projects demand significant effort, making the pursuit of larger goals more strategically advantageous.
- Breaking out of comfort zones, even through uncomfortable experiences like a difficult commute or a challenging sales job, provides valuable learning opportunities and builds resilience.
- Asking yourself better questions, such as ‘What am I looking forward to?’ instead of ‘Why do I always do this?’, can fundamentally shift your perspective and actions.
- Impersonating insightful individuals or mentors when asking yourself questions can unlock new perspectives and help you overcome personal limitations or biases.
Segments
Comedy Open Mic Disaster (00:01:47)
- Key Takeaway: A poorly executed ‘plant’ strategy in a comedy open mic can backfire spectacularly, highlighting the performer’s lack of comedic talent to the entire audience.
- Summary: The discussion shifts to a past experience at a comedy open mic where one host and their friend attempted a ‘plant’ strategy to get laughs, which failed miserably when the friend’s excessive laughter only emphasized the silence from the rest of the audience.
Newsletter Success and Monetization (00:03:29)
- Key Takeaway: Building a successful newsletter involves creating a strong brand identity and writing content that resonates with the founders’ own interests, betting that others will share those interests.
- Summary: The hosts delve into the success of the ‘Milk Road’ crypto newsletter, discussing its origin, branding strategy, and the decision to write for themselves, which they believe was key to its appeal and eventual sale.
Defining Entrepreneurial Success (00:11:36)
- Key Takeaway: True entrepreneurial fulfillment comes from designing a ‘perfect day’ that incorporates enjoyable work and personal interests, rather than solely chasing distant financial goals.
- Summary: The conversation explores the philosophy of building a career around what makes a day enjoyable, focusing on daily satisfaction and curiosity-driven work rather than solely on long-term ambitions or financial targets.
Podcast Monetization Strategies (00:20:00)
- Key Takeaway: The most effective podcast monetization strategy involves leveraging audience trust to create a business model that aligns with the audience’s needs, such as launching a fund, rather than relying solely on traditional ads.
- Summary: Sean explains how his podcast ‘My First Million’ was monetized not through ads, but by launching a fund that attracted wealthy listeners, demonstrating a more lucrative approach than standard advertising.
Building Real Friendships (00:40:50)
- Key Takeaway: Cultivating genuine friendships requires actively introducing new acquaintances to existing friends and consistently saying ‘yes’ to social invitations, breaking out of a ‘box life’.
- Summary: The discussion touches on the difficulty of making friends as an adult and shares strategies for building a strong social circle, emphasizing the importance of real connections over transactional ‘deal friends’.
Breaking Comfort Zones (00:44:28)
- Key Takeaway: Embracing discomfort and stepping outside of established routines, even if initially unpleasant, leads to significant personal growth and the acquisition of valuable life skills.
- Summary: The speakers discuss how choosing less convenient but more engaging activities, like walking or biking to work instead of taking an Uber, provided a better experience and fostered a sense of accomplishment. They relate this to the ‘comfort trap’ and how challenging experiences, even those that feel difficult at the time, offer crucial learning opportunities.
The Power of Questioning (00:47:01)
- Key Takeaway: The quality of questions we ask ourselves directly influences the quality of our lives, with self-defeating questions leading to stagnation and constructive questions opening doors to new possibilities.
- Summary: This segment delves into the importance of self-dialogue, contrasting negative self-talk (‘Why do I always do this?’) with more empowering questions. The speakers highlight how successful individuals can fall into a ’ladder’ mentality, constantly climbing but not necessarily growing, and propose asking questions like ‘What am I looking forward to?’ as a way to inject excitement and purpose.
Impersonation for Perspective (00:49:34)
- Key Takeaway: Adopting the persona of admired individuals when posing questions to oneself can instantly provide a fresh perspective and unlock insights that would otherwise remain inaccessible.
- Summary: The conversation explores the creative technique of impersonating others (like Lex Fridman or Patrick Collison) to reframe personal questions and gain new viewpoints. This is illustrated with an example of how simulating conversations with a mentor like Suli helped in making difficult business decisions by anticipating his probing questions.
Negotiation Tactics and Mindset (00:53:07)
- Key Takeaway: Successful negotiation hinges on emotional detachment, creating competition among potential buyers, and understanding that most deals will face significant hurdles before closing.
- Summary: This segment focuses on the practicalities of selling a business, drawing from the experience of selling ‘The Milk Road.’ Key strategies discussed include bringing multiple interested parties to the table to foster competition, the importance of not getting emotionally attached to a single offer, and the wisdom of anticipating that deals will likely fall apart multiple times before completion.
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- Transcript Length: 115,987 characters
- Caption Count: 1,175 captions
Prompts Used
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Transcript section:
[00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:08.000] What up?
[00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:09.200] What's going on, man?
[00:00:09.200 --> 00:00:11.600] Bro, I just went to the Louis C.K.
[00:00:11.680 --> 00:00:14.640] show at Madison Square Garden this past weekend.
[00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:15.680] Oh, nice.
[00:00:15.920 --> 00:00:16.480] How was it?
[00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:19.120] It's been a long time since I've been to a comedy show.
[00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:21.040] Have you even been to any comedy shows?
[00:00:21.040 --> 00:00:21.920] I don't know if you've ever talked about it.
[00:00:22.080 --> 00:00:25.200] I've been to lots of comedy shows back in San Francisco, like pre-pandemic.
[00:00:25.200 --> 00:00:27.920] I used to go with Celeste all the time.
[00:00:28.240 --> 00:00:30.240] I wasn't seeing Louis C.K., he's a pariah.
[00:00:30.240 --> 00:00:35.280] He's been, I mean, he like masturbated in front of a bunch of women, and I thought that was a wrap for him.
[00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:36.320] Yeah, exactly.
[00:00:36.320 --> 00:00:38.720] So actually, you know Dan Shively, right?
[00:00:39.120 --> 00:00:39.600] Yeah.
[00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:50.880] My best friend from San Francisco, he was a comedian, and he's the only reason I would have gone to the show, because it's all super controversial, is like Dan just messaged me out of the blue, and he's like, hey, man, I got three tickets to Louis C.K.
[00:00:51.040 --> 00:00:51.920] Like, do you want to go?
[00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:53.360] It's going to be in Madison Square Garden.
[00:00:53.360 --> 00:00:54.960] He was flying from Arizona.
[00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:57.200] So I'm like, all right, man, yeah, absolutely.
[00:00:57.200 --> 00:00:58.880] And I brought my girlfriend along.
[00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:02.240] She didn't tell any of her friends that she was coming.
[00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:02.880] We get there.
[00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:03.760] It's hilarious.
[00:01:03.760 --> 00:01:09.360] It's like, you know, 10 men for every woman that you see like just around in Madison Square Garden.
[00:01:09.360 --> 00:01:15.840] Every single one of the women clearly is just like the wife or the girlfriend of some guy that they're with.
[00:01:16.320 --> 00:01:17.440] There are no groups of women.
[00:01:17.440 --> 00:01:19.040] There are no like gay men, right?
[00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:24.320] It's exactly the kind of crowd that you would expect, like a bunch of like white like 20s and 30s guys.
[00:01:24.320 --> 00:01:31.200] And then even the show itself was hilarious because the first joke that he makes is like, thank you guys all for coming.
[00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:37.040] I know every single person here has someone in their life that doesn't know where they are.
[00:01:37.520 --> 00:01:40.720] You lied to about what you were doing on a Saturday night.
[00:01:40.720 --> 00:01:41.200] I don't know.
[00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:47.520] I'm not going to spoil the set, but it actually was really funny because I was there with Dan.
[00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:52.160] Dan spent five years like really seriously trying to become a comedian.
[00:01:52.160 --> 00:01:57.520] And I don't know if, did I tell you about the time that Dan and I went to an open mic in San Francisco?
[00:01:57.520 --> 00:01:58.320] Yeah, you told me.
[00:01:58.320 --> 00:02:01.320] This is because you did stand up yourself too, I think.
[00:01:59.520 --> 00:02:04.120] And you had never done stand-up before, so you just kind of like did it.
[00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:05.320] And then, did you do good?
[00:02:05.320 --> 00:02:05.800] Did you bomb?
[00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:06.120] I can't remember.
[00:02:06.360 --> 00:02:11.400] It is exactly the exact same thing as, like, it's like, I don't even agree that I did stand-up.
[00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:21.000] It was, he wanted to do stand-up and he's like, hey, I'm going to do open mic, and I need you to be a good friend and come with me so that if I bomb, like, you can bomb before me.
[00:02:21.320 --> 00:02:23.560] And it was the worst experience I've ever had.
[00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:24.040] It was good.
[00:02:24.040 --> 00:02:26.200] It was a fun learning experience.
[00:02:26.200 --> 00:02:28.440] But, dude, I don't know if I told you like the details.
[00:02:28.760 --> 00:02:33.880] We had like a gentleman's agreement where we're like, okay, I'm going to have like a five-minute set.
[00:02:33.880 --> 00:02:35.240] He's going to have a five-minute set.
[00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:38.680] We prepared him, but we like, we're like, we're going to walk in separately.
[00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:45.160] This is like, you know, in San Francisco, just a small bar, like 50 people and a lonely mic on a stage.
[00:02:45.160 --> 00:02:47.960] And we like went in and pretended that we didn't know each other.
[00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:53.000] And the idea was that he would sit in the middle and like laugh at my joke.
[00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:54.040] That's genius.
[00:02:54.040 --> 00:02:55.560] You're the plant in the audience.
[00:02:55.720 --> 00:02:56.040] Exactly.
[00:02:56.360 --> 00:02:58.120] And then I was going to be the plant for him.
[00:02:58.120 --> 00:02:59.240] But I go first.
[00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:02.280] And my, my, like, first off, my set sucks.
[00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:08.840] So every joke that I give, he's laughing hysterically, and the entire room is dead silent.
[00:03:09.320 --> 00:03:12.280] Dude, we got Sean here and Ben.
[00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:14.040] Hey, guys, can you hear us?
[00:03:14.040 --> 00:03:15.160] Yeah, what's up, guys?
[00:03:15.160 --> 00:03:16.520] Can you hear me?
[00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:17.960] Yeah, hey, what's up?
[00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:18.760] What's up?
[00:03:18.760 --> 00:03:21.240] Dude, Sean, I love your setup.
[00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:23.800] You're pro right now.
[00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:27.160] Yeah, we got Pip My Studio'd out.
[00:03:27.160 --> 00:03:27.640] Yeah.
[00:03:27.640 --> 00:03:29.400] Let me tell you a story.
[00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:29.880] Okay.
[00:03:29.880 --> 00:03:33.160] It's probably been like a year since we last spoke.
[00:03:33.160 --> 00:03:34.920] I moved to Seattle.
[00:03:34.920 --> 00:03:36.760] I completely got out of the tech game.
[00:03:36.760 --> 00:03:40.200] Like, half people I know in San Francisco, I don't even talk to anymore.
[00:03:40.200 --> 00:03:43.560] Almost none of my friends in Seattle know anything about tech or startups.
[00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:44.520] They don't even know what I do.
[00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:47.040] Like, I tell them what I do, and they just look at me, like, with their eyes crossed.
[00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:55.040] But the other day, I was sitting next to my girlfriend, and she was checking her email, and I see these, like, two little diamond emojis in her inbox.
[00:03:55.120 --> 00:03:56.560] I'm like, what is that?
[00:03:56.560 --> 00:03:59.360] And it says, it's your fucking newsletter in her inbox.
[00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:01.440] It says Sean Purry, five tweet Tuesday.
[00:04:01.440 --> 00:04:05.760] And I'm like, wait a minute, Sarah, like, how did you, how did you find, like, why are you subscribed to this?
[00:04:05.760 --> 00:04:06.640] And she didn't even remember.
[00:04:06.640 --> 00:04:07.760] She's like, oh, it's just interesting.
[00:04:07.760 --> 00:04:08.160] I like this.
[00:04:08.160 --> 00:04:09.120] I like this guy.
[00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:11.920] So in my mind, I'm like, holy shit, Sean has made it.
[00:04:11.920 --> 00:04:12.800] He's crossed over.
[00:04:13.040 --> 00:04:17.360] Sliding into your girl's DMs with my newsletter.
[00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:18.320] How dare you?
[00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:19.840] You're mainstream now, man.
[00:04:19.840 --> 00:04:20.400] You're huge.
[00:04:20.400 --> 00:04:24.320] Like, you're, like, I feel like you've made it as a content creator.
[00:04:24.320 --> 00:04:26.240] Well, at least I've made it.
[00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:30.320] That's the one thing that I always wanted was the tagline of having made it.
[00:04:30.320 --> 00:04:31.440] You know, it's funny.
[00:04:32.080 --> 00:04:36.480] A long time ago, I was doing my first startup when I was like maybe 21 years old.
[00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:48.560] And we had this terrible idea, but at the time we thought genius idea to somehow we were going to promote our restaurant startup through viral YouTube videos.
[00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:53.120] And really, if we were honest with ourselves, we just thought going viral would be cool.
[00:04:53.280 --> 00:04:56.800] But we just wrapped it as a justification to waste a bunch of time trying to go viral.
[00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:03.760] So one of the things we did was a challenge where we would brush our teeth with wasabi because we were starting a sushi restaurant.
[00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:08.800] And so we did this thing where we brushed our teeth with wasabi and then we're like, you know, spitting it out.
[00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:09.360] It's terrible.
[00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:11.600] It's like, you know, mouth's burning or whatever.
[00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:14.880] Video doesn't go viral, maybe 400 views or something like that.
[00:05:14.880 --> 00:05:16.720] Which, like, honestly, I give myself a little credit for.
[00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:21.120] That was actually a good idea for a channel, just like, you know, punking yourself, basically.
[00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:22.960] I think that's a lot of big channels have been built that way.
[00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:23.680] It's a very Mr.
[00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:25.280] Beast bit right there.
[00:05:25.280 --> 00:05:25.760] Yeah, exactly.
[00:05:25.760 --> 00:05:28.080] Like Nelk Boy's jackass type of thing.
[00:05:28.080 --> 00:05:36.200] And so we, then later, I was at a casino one time, and this guy points at me and he goes, and this is like, you know, more recent.
[00:05:36.280 --> 00:05:38.520] And I think, all right, this guy recognizes me.
[00:05:38.520 --> 00:05:43.320] He's going to say something about the podcast or the newsletter or Milk Road or something like that.
[00:05:43.320 --> 00:05:46.360] He goes, You're the wasabi guy.
[00:05:46.760 --> 00:05:48.920] He goes, I saw you brush your teeth with wasabi.
[00:05:48.920 --> 00:05:52.040] And I was like, wow, that's that's amazing.
[00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:56.200] Like a decade later, this is like that 400 views is still paying off.
[00:05:56.440 --> 00:05:59.720] Like one of the only 400 people on earth who know you from that.
[00:05:59.720 --> 00:06:00.520] And everybody else knows.
[00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:02.280] And recognize me because I look a little different than I do.
[00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:04.680] And you're just like, thank God, that's what I wanted to be known for.
[00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:05.640] Finally.
[00:06:05.640 --> 00:06:06.040] Yeah, exactly.
[00:06:06.280 --> 00:06:06.680] Finally.
[00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:07.240] I knew it.
[00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:09.880] It was like I told you so moment, but there was no one to tell.
[00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:12.600] Dude, your numbers are huge.
[00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:15.320] Like, I think last year you came out on the Indackers podcast.
[00:06:15.320 --> 00:06:21.960] That was like a year and a half ago, and you were doing like a few hundred thousand downloads a month, which at that time was already bigger than any hackers.
[00:06:21.960 --> 00:06:24.280] Like, I'm like, you know, around that number.
[00:06:24.280 --> 00:06:29.800] And then now you're like, I think my first million, you and Sam get like 2 million downloads a month.
[00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:30.440] Is that right?
[00:06:30.440 --> 00:06:31.160] Yeah, something like that.
[00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:33.560] That's a ridiculous amount of traffic.
[00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:34.600] And like listeners.
[00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:36.520] And I'm thinking, do you guys monetize from ads?
[00:06:36.520 --> 00:06:38.120] Do you actually, or does HubSpot?
[00:06:38.280 --> 00:06:41.240] Well, we basically sold all the ad inventory to HubSpot.
[00:06:41.320 --> 00:06:41.720] Oh, shit.
[00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:43.240] So HubSpot runs all the ads.
[00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:43.960] But that's okay.
[00:06:43.960 --> 00:06:44.840] It's still good.
[00:06:44.840 --> 00:06:49.480] Like, that just means we don't have to do ad sales because as it grows, we get paid more.
[00:06:49.880 --> 00:06:55.960] So it's not like basically just saying somebody pre-bought all of the inventory at a set rate.
[00:06:55.960 --> 00:06:57.640] And then if we grow, we get paid more.
[00:06:58.120 --> 00:06:59.880] Are you like getting a cut of the ad revenue?
[00:06:59.880 --> 00:07:03.080] Because I feel like the ad revenue is like, I don't know what podcast ads is like.
[00:07:03.320 --> 00:07:05.080] The more downloads we get, the more we get paid.
[00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:06.920] That's a sweet deal, dude.
[00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:07.640] Yeah.
[00:07:07.960 --> 00:07:11.000] And not only that, but you can do whatever side projects you want.
[00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:15.360] So you and Ben here started a newsletter.
[00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:18.880] This one my girlfriend doesn't subscribe to that I know of called the Milk Road.
[00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:19.440] It's a crypto newsletter.
[00:07:20.320 --> 00:07:22.800] I want to talk about that because you just sold it.
[00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:24.160] And you guys could do anything.
[00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:25.280] Do whatever you want.
[00:07:25.280 --> 00:07:27.680] Why did you start a newsletter about crypto?
[00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:28.800] Like what's the origin story?
[00:07:28.960 --> 00:07:35.520] First, let me introduce Ben because I think people don't know the real main character of a lot of my stuff is Ben, actually.
[00:07:35.520 --> 00:07:37.280] So this is Ben Levy.
[00:07:38.080 --> 00:07:45.600] We met a couple years ago and it was sort of just like he was in a mastermind group that I was putting together where there was like six CEOs or something like that.
[00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:47.840] And his business was actually somewhat boring.
[00:07:47.840 --> 00:07:50.080] It was like, you know, doing well, but it was like kind of a boring business.
[00:07:50.080 --> 00:07:54.240] His updates were always, you know, you could tell he wasn't even that excited about it.
[00:07:54.240 --> 00:08:04.400] But every time somebody else in the group had something, he had like the most on-point strategy or advice or just like cut to the chase kind of like comment.
[00:08:04.400 --> 00:08:06.160] And so I was like, I like this guy, Ben.
[00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:08.160] And I was like, he seems kind of bored with his business.
[00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:11.200] I wonder if I could just pitch him like, yo, let's do something interesting.
[00:08:11.440 --> 00:08:12.720] Come work on my thing.
[00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:14.000] Hey, what if you just stopped?
[00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:17.680] And he was also just like, yeah, actually, let's try something.
[00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:18.800] And so we tried one project.
[00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:19.200] It went well.
[00:08:19.280 --> 00:08:20.080] Then we tried another.
[00:08:20.080 --> 00:08:22.080] And now we've done like four or five things together.
[00:08:22.080 --> 00:08:24.400] The latest of which was the Milk Road.
[00:08:24.400 --> 00:08:25.440] So why do you a newsletter?
[00:08:25.440 --> 00:08:27.120] I mean, like, was it to make money?
[00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:28.960] Was it just because it was fun?
[00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:31.040] Obviously, like, it did very well, but like, what's the point?
[00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:35.440] What's going through your head is like, this is a thing that we can work on together.
[00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:36.320] Two reasons.
[00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:39.360] One was we thought it would work.
[00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:43.680] So a lot of people overestimate how much they love one topic.
[00:08:43.680 --> 00:08:48.160] I think I kind of underestimate that winning, like just succeeding is in itself pretty fun.
[00:08:48.160 --> 00:08:50.480] And so I had a very high conviction that this would work.
[00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:54.880] So I was like, okay, I know I'll have fun simply from the fact that this is going to work.
[00:08:54.880 --> 00:08:56.480] And we can talk about why I thought it was going to work.
[00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:01.320] But the second thing is me and Ben had been increasingly interested in crypto.
[00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:11.160] So I have this like, you know, philosophy, which is sort of like, how do I give myself an excuse to do the thing that I'm already spending my extra hours doing?
[00:09:11.160 --> 00:09:14.920] Meaning, like, if my, if my interest is always, already going in that way, can I productize that?
[00:09:14.920 --> 00:09:16.440] Can I, can I wrap that into a business?
[00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:19.000] And I don't always, but this one I was like, I clearly could.
[00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:22.680] We were like, you know, a newsletter, probably not the biggest business, but it would work.
[00:09:22.680 --> 00:09:24.200] It would be a business.
[00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:32.440] The second thing was like, this will be a great excuse to force ourselves to learn about crypto every day and meet a bunch of other people in the space.
[00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:42.520] And I told Ben at the beginning, I was like, probably some investment we're going to make off of this is going to make us more money than the newsletter will basically just create a surface area for serendipity.
[00:09:42.520 --> 00:09:48.600] Create just like a bunch of space for good luck to happen because I figured crypto was where a lot of luck was going to happen.
[00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:51.080] So that was the mentality going in.
[00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:55.720] And there was just a bunch of like good inspiration for why we thought this might work.
[00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:57.720] Do you think that that's how it turned out?
[00:09:57.720 --> 00:10:00.920] That an investment or two that you've made from your newsletter has made you more money?
[00:10:00.920 --> 00:10:04.120] Or do you think like selling your newsletter and having ads on there made up?
[00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:05.640] Maybe the opposite.
[00:10:05.640 --> 00:10:06.520] Maybe the opposite.
[00:10:06.520 --> 00:10:19.480] We made a bunch of money selling the newsletter, but one of the things we did to promote the newsletter was, Ben, you could describe what I thought was a genius marketing move that actually turned out to not be so genius.
[00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:23.960] Yeah, I mean, the way we, the hook initially was like, hey, we're going to put a million dollars into crypto.
[00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:27.720] And this was like, this is about a year ago when crypto is still in the bull market.
[00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:32.280] We're like, we're going to put a million dollars into crypto and we're going to turn it into 10 this year.
[00:10:32.680 --> 00:10:35.240] I think we put 250K into Luna.
[00:10:35.640 --> 00:10:38.360] Subscribe to the newsletter to see how we do it, right?
[00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:39.720] This was like a, it was like bait.
[00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:42.760] It was like, watch me try to turn one into 10.
[00:10:42.760 --> 00:10:48.000] And that was pretty juicy, but we instead turned a million into like 200,000.
[00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:53.280] Just losing money in public is one of the best marketing hooks, I think.
[00:10:53.280 --> 00:11:07.120] Let me mention something that I think is really brilliant and super underrated in what you just said, which is the process of like selecting a thing to work on, especially if you, let's just be honest, like you're kind of in this position where you kind of have fuck you money.
[00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:08.800] You have a lot of different options.
[00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:13.920] So many people think, well, what am I passionate about already?
[00:11:13.920 --> 00:11:15.440] And I want to go work in that.
[00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:21.200] One of the cool ways to like create passion is just to enter a space and then win in it.
[00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:26.640] And then you end up getting all these other byproducts and like, you know, sort of happy outcomes.
[00:11:26.640 --> 00:11:28.240] You learn a lot about crypto.
[00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:30.080] You make a lot of different connections with people.
[00:11:30.400 --> 00:11:32.720] You're doing what you want and you're doing something that makes money.
[00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:35.200] And like that intersection is where you want to be.
[00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:35.840] Yeah, exactly.
[00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:38.800] I did a kind of an audit, which was like, yo, what do I want to do?
[00:11:38.800 --> 00:11:39.840] I was like, what do I want to do?
[00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:44.240] And at first, I was thinking, I think the way most people think, which is like, what should I do with my life, my career?
[00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:54.080] And I thought about like, you know, some like distant goal, like, oh, I want to make this much money or I want to achieve X and change the world and whatever.
[00:11:54.400 --> 00:11:58.720] And there was something that just wasn't sitting right with me about that way of thinking.
[00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:01.600] And I felt like it was a little bit just too artificial.
[00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:05.200] It was like, this sounds good, but I don't really know.
[00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:07.600] Like, it sounds good when I tell people.
[00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:11.840] And it's almost like I'm performing for them with check out my ambition.
[00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:14.320] And instead, I was like, what do I actually want?
[00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:15.600] What do I actually want?
[00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:19.200] And I was like, let me zoom all the way back into today.
[00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:21.760] Like, what is a great day feel like today?
[00:12:21.760 --> 00:12:25.280] Forget what career, what my long-term plans and ambitions are.
[00:12:25.280 --> 00:12:29.040] Like, tomorrow, what would make that day really enjoyable?
[00:12:29.040 --> 00:12:31.320] Like, what's an average day need to look like?
[00:12:31.640 --> 00:12:35.640] That includes work because I don't, I'm not satisfied if I just like do nothing.
[00:12:35.640 --> 00:12:37.720] Like, that's actually pretty boring for me.
[00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:43.320] So, I'm gonna work, but what type of work is actually fun to do on a day-to-day basis?
[00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:51.880] So that the day itself is the payoff, not I'm gonna grind it out and suffer for some future payoff that, like, you know, may or may not ever come.
[00:12:51.880 --> 00:12:53.880] And I did that for like all of my 20s.
[00:12:53.880 --> 00:13:06.520] You know, in my early 20s, it was like grind, suffer, sleep in the office, future payoff billionaire on the cover, you know, Forbes 30 to 30, whatever the stupid goals I had was, that was like a way I thought about things.
[00:13:06.520 --> 00:13:08.600] And now I'm like, what does a perfect Tuesday look like?
[00:13:08.600 --> 00:13:10.040] I was like, all right, I wake up.
[00:13:10.040 --> 00:13:11.640] I wake up without an alarm clock.
[00:13:11.640 --> 00:13:12.840] That would be nice, right?
[00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:13.800] Cool.
[00:13:14.040 --> 00:13:15.960] Opening part of my calendar is clear.
[00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:19.720] Maybe I'll just check in with kind of like the, I like, I don't want to work totally alone.
[00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:20.520] I don't like that.
[00:13:20.520 --> 00:13:24.280] Let me check in with my one business partner early in the day.
[00:13:24.280 --> 00:13:26.280] We kind of riff on what would make today great.
[00:13:26.680 --> 00:13:30.200] And then I don't want to have a bunch of employees that I'm like managing and one-on-one.
[00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:32.040] I don't want my calendar to look like that.
[00:13:32.040 --> 00:13:33.960] I don't want my calendar to be a bunch of calls.
[00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:36.200] And so I really just zoomed in on what's a great day.
[00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:42.120] And I realized in that process, as I map, I literally mapped out like a schedule of a great average day.
[00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:44.200] And by the way, I think everybody should do this.
[00:13:44.680 --> 00:13:47.080] You should map out a perfect Tuesday for you.
[00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:48.920] And it includes all the little things.
[00:13:48.920 --> 00:13:53.320] Like, you know, I'm like, I realized, like, dude, one of the best parts of every day is like when I shower.
[00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:54.840] I just, I love taking a shower.
[00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:56.680] It's, it's just like feels so good afterwards.
[00:13:56.680 --> 00:13:59.560] I get a bunch of great ideas, really relaxing.
[00:13:59.960 --> 00:14:01.000] I'm not on my phone.
[00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:02.840] Like, you know, there's just like a bunch of benefits to it.
[00:14:02.840 --> 00:14:06.760] I'm like, okay, it sounds silly, but that's actually an important part of my day, right?
[00:14:06.760 --> 00:14:07.480] Walking my dog.
[00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:11.000] There's all these little things I enjoyed that I was like, I need to make sure that happens.
[00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:17.280] And the one most important one was, I like just being curious and then letting, like, following my curiosity.
[00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:20.640] So I thought, well, how can I be professionally curious?
[00:14:20.640 --> 00:14:23.040] Can I get paid to be curious?
[00:14:23.040 --> 00:14:26.000] Is that if that was my career, then what would happen?
[00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:30.480] And so that's where I started thinking, why not do something like a newsletter?
[00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:40.720] Because if I was going to do a newsletter about crypto, which is the thing I was most curious about in those months, then I would get to just like, go read a bunch of stuff, go meet a bunch of cool people, blah, blah, blah.
[00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:47.520] And then cool, at the end of the night, I just package that up into a newsletter that, you know, summarizes the most interesting things I saw or I heard about.
[00:14:47.520 --> 00:14:49.360] That seems like a fun project to work on.
[00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:50.560] And that's how we decided.
[00:14:50.560 --> 00:14:52.640] It's funny because this is like rich guy stuff.
[00:14:52.640 --> 00:14:54.160] And I think it should be everybody stuff.
[00:14:54.160 --> 00:14:59.440] Like I talked to people who are second-time founders or third-time founders, and they're saying the same stuff.
[00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:02.400] Like, what would I like to do on a day-to-day basis?
[00:15:02.400 --> 00:15:03.840] You know, what makes me happy?
[00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:05.120] And I talked to first-time founders.
[00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:07.120] I'm like, what is going to make money?
[00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:08.560] How do I quit my job?
[00:15:08.560 --> 00:15:09.440] Like, I have no idea.
[00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:10.880] It's like, what will work?
[00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:20.480] And I think that, like, I'm interested kind of in the disparity between you, Sean, and you, Ben, because it sounds like Ben, I don't know a ton about your backstory, but like, you're working on a business that wasn't working that well.
[00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:27.120] And here, Sean has like already like sold a company, like, making all this money from his podcast, which is like humongous, investing.
[00:15:27.280 --> 00:15:32.960] And I think when you have this dichotomy between like two different founders who are in two different places, you might want different things.
[00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:40.160] Like, my boss is a billionaire, and he came to me at some point a couple of years ago and was like, hey, Court, let's work on this project together.
[00:15:40.160 --> 00:15:44.080] And on one hand, I was like, oh, this is a cool pet project of his that he really wants to work on.
[00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:50.000] But on the other hand, I'm like, he already has like, you know, $10 billion dollars and I have like some like infinitesimal fraction of that.
[00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:52.000] Like, we have very different goals.
[00:15:52.160 --> 00:15:58.320] Like, Ben, like, what was your, were you on like this perfect Tuesday grind of like, you just want to have a newsletter that's going to be fun for you?
[00:15:58.320 --> 00:17:33.920] Yeah, I definitely am a little more focused on like yeah I want to make a certain amount of money but it's not like my only goal I'm like yeah I want to do it a specific way and I want to have fun and I want to like chase the things that are interesting to me whereas like you know for example my little brother he's like he's like oh stuck in the SMB Twitter world where he's like oh if I can start a housekeeping business tomorrow that makes me 10 grand a month I'll do it I'm like yeah I definitely don't think like that but probably a little bit more than Sean is on the spectrum of like yeah I want to do things that have an outcome and I think Sean is slightly under underplaying that because I think he cares too but I think it's mostly like there's many ways to win and like there's a certain way that we try to win the game how do you win like Channing and I have a newsletter it's not that big you know it's like 125,000 people we make zero dollars from it like we don't know how to win with the newsletter how do you win with the newsletter yeah I mean I think the main things that I think we won with were one brand like which I think you guys do a good job with too you know we tried to stand out from the crowd I think there were and I don't know Sean how you feel about this but there was you know we could have been called crypto daily or eat daily instead we tried to pick something that people really resonated with and we tried to build like a cult and I think we saw that on Twitter a lot people would resonate with the cult and the things that we did so I think that's one I think two we tried to write for ourselves like I think early on we were like oh who who is this for is it for someone that's deeper or like our moms and like the reality was we were just like let's just write what we like and if we like this, we're going to bet that thousands of other people will.
[00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:42.480] And then, three, I think trying to get good at monetizing, which for us is we trained a a kid from the Netherlands to be really good at ad sales.
[00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:46.800] I don't know, Sean, what else from your perspective do you think we got right that helped us win?
[00:17:46.800 --> 00:17:48.400] Well, I think it's kind of two separate questions.
[00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:50.640] One is what makes a newsletter work?
[00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:52.560] What does a newsletter business even look like?
[00:17:52.560 --> 00:17:59.280] And then the second is things that we did specific to Milk Road that actually worked particularly well.
[00:17:59.280 --> 00:18:06.320] And by the way, I think what you did with indie hackers is exactly like that is this, that is a winning formula.
[00:18:06.320 --> 00:18:15.920] And yeah, it's not, you didn't do it through the newsletter, but you did the same idea, which is you picked basically a niche that you understood, that you could speak to of people you like to be around.
[00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:21.920] You built a brand around it with a cool name, and then you started figuring out what content they like on a regular basis.
[00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:27.440] Success stories, horror stories, you know, like tips and tricks, whatever.
[00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:30.080] And you started providing that to them on a consistent basis.
[00:18:30.080 --> 00:18:34.080] And whatever the outcome was, I doubt you could have predicted that at the beginning.
[00:18:34.080 --> 00:18:42.400] So even though I was kind of like a little bit on the hippie, enlightened path of like, what does my perfect day need to look like?
[00:18:43.280 --> 00:18:46.560] Part of working on something was like that this is going to succeed.
[00:18:46.560 --> 00:18:51.360] It's going to be something that people like, I like, and the market likes, meaning it makes money.
[00:18:51.360 --> 00:18:53.120] And like, don't get me wrong, I love money.
[00:18:53.120 --> 00:18:55.120] My podcast is called My First Million for a reason.
[00:18:55.120 --> 00:18:58.400] I really enjoy the sport of making money.
[00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:01.760] But what I realized along the way was I just looked at a pattern.
[00:19:01.760 --> 00:19:09.760] Every time I do something opportunistic, because I'm like, this will make money, my results are worse than the things that I do because I'm like, this would be dope.
[00:19:09.760 --> 00:19:17.040] And this would be dope happens to be a better starting point for me than this would work or this would make money.
[00:19:17.040 --> 00:19:19.200] So, this would be dope is like the first filter.
[00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:21.280] Then, secondly, do I see a path?
[00:19:21.280 --> 00:19:26.000] Do I think that there's a way for this to make a bunch of money or give me some other big benefit that I'm interested in?
[00:19:26.560 --> 00:19:29.600] If so, then like green light, go forward.
[00:19:29.600 --> 00:19:31.880] And business is like a skill set.
[00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:48.680] So, it's like, you know, I can go to my sister's preschool business and help her make more money because there's just a skill of business about how to increase revenue, how to, you know, decrease your costs or increase your margins, how to reinvest that in a way that like grows the business, how to structure your business in a way that's like tax advantage.
[00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:52.120] Like, there's all these like skills that go into a bucket when you're good at business.
[00:19:52.440 --> 00:20:00.840] So, once I realized, oh, you could just apply that to anything, I could take a podcast, which is not typically something people make a lot of money with, and I could find a way to make a lot of money with it.
[00:20:00.840 --> 00:20:08.920] For example, with our podcast, I think the first year we made some tiny amount of ad revenue, 30K, 70K, something like that.
[00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:12.920] But I realized pretty quickly, oh, ads is a really poor way to monetize a podcast.
[00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:19.160] The better way to monetize this podcast is like, look at what this asset is actually creating, and then figure out the best business model for that.
[00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:28.360] So, what I realized was this podcast is attracting a bunch of entrepreneurs who either are already, you know, somewhat successful or, you know, soon to be successful.
[00:20:28.360 --> 00:20:30.360] And they have really high trust, right?
[00:20:30.360 --> 00:20:31.480] It's not the biggest audience.
[00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:31.960] It's not Mr.
[00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:37.240] Beast, like 80 million people watching a video, but it's now, I don't know, like 150,000 people.
[00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:38.360] But back then, it was much smaller.
[00:20:38.360 --> 00:20:41.800] Maybe let's say at that time, 30,000 people listening to an episode.
[00:20:41.800 --> 00:20:46.280] But they're listening to me with my voice for hours a week in their ears.
[00:20:46.280 --> 00:20:49.000] And they learn to trust me and like me and like hear stories.
[00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:52.760] And I'm like, I have this free avenue to build a whole reputation with them.
[00:20:52.760 --> 00:20:54.040] And how did we monetize that?
[00:20:54.040 --> 00:21:01.720] Was we launched a fund and we just got like, you know, only the top 100 or 200 wealthiest people in the audience to give us money.
[00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:03.960] And now we invest $10 million a year into startups.
[00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:06.120] That turned out to be a way better business model.
[00:21:06.360 --> 00:21:13.880] You know, investing $10 million a year into startups using capital raised from the podcast listeners was a way better business model than ads.
[00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:22.720] But it's only because, you know, took something that I thought would just be dope to do and then bet on myself that later I can figure out business model that will work.
[00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:31.200] Is there any, I'm curious, I mean, that's some of the ways that you were able to kind of parlay assets from your podcast into investing.
[00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:35.840] Is there an extent to which you did anything similar with the Milk Road?
[00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:41.680] Like, what's the equivalent crypto play is, oh man, these people trust me and they'll do whatever we say.
[00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:46.000] Like, let's launch our own coin and then get people to invest in that.
[00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:46.800] But you didn't do that.
[00:21:46.800 --> 00:21:49.520] Yeah, no, part of the important part about trust is to not abuse it.
[00:21:49.520 --> 00:21:59.120] So, like, yeah, we wanted to launch a fund if we thought that we could generate like alpha above just saying go buy ETH and go buy Bitcoin if you believe in crypto, right?
[00:21:59.120 --> 00:22:01.840] So it's like, do I believe I can outperform ETH?
[00:22:01.840 --> 00:22:03.760] Ah, no, so I'm not going to do that.
[00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:04.800] Oh, cool.
[00:22:04.800 --> 00:22:05.600] NFTs are hot.
[00:22:05.600 --> 00:22:06.800] Should we launch a Milk Road NFT?
[00:22:06.800 --> 00:22:07.120] I don't know.
[00:22:07.120 --> 00:22:07.680] We got a good brand.
[00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:08.880] We've got a bunch of people here.
[00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:10.320] They'd probably buy it.
[00:22:10.320 --> 00:22:11.120] But then what?
[00:22:11.120 --> 00:22:13.760] Like, I'm not trying to sell you a door to nowhere.
[00:22:13.760 --> 00:22:17.200] So we couldn't figure out what the hell the purpose would be of the NFTs.
[00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:19.520] So we just never did it at that time.
[00:22:19.520 --> 00:22:24.240] And so, you know, part of the reason you can build trust is because you know how to not abuse it.
[00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:25.680] So we didn't abuse it there.
[00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:26.960] So what did we actually do?
[00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:32.160] We were like, well, we have a bunch of crypto readers who are interested in crypto investing, things like that.
[00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:34.800] And there was a bunch of advertisers who wanted to advertise with us.
[00:22:34.800 --> 00:22:37.440] So that paid the bills on a month-to-month basis.
[00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:39.680] So, you know, I know you guys are indie hackers.
[00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:40.400] You guys like numbers.
[00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:46.960] We were doing, I don't know, probably what was it been like between one and two million a year in revenue was kind of like the rate we were at.
[00:22:47.360 --> 00:22:48.800] Now, we were in year one.
[00:22:48.800 --> 00:22:50.320] We sold the business one year in.
[00:22:50.320 --> 00:22:54.320] So, you know, we kind of jettisoned a little early there, but it was working.
[00:22:54.320 --> 00:22:55.680] The business was profitable.
[00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:58.320] It was doing, you know, seven figures of revenue.
[00:22:58.320 --> 00:23:04.520] And more importantly, we realized, oh, okay, there are multiple ways you can parlay this audience in the future.
[00:22:59.840 --> 00:23:14.360] What we decided to do was say, let's use this as an excuse to learn and get smarter about crypto because getting smart in crypto can be a very financially lucrative thing for you.
[00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:21.400] Invest in projects that we're seeing early on, and we're able to get on the cap table because when we go to the projects, we say, hey, can we invest in this?
[00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:25.800] By the way, like, we can mention you in Milk Road and get you in front of a huge number of people.
[00:23:25.800 --> 00:23:30.600] So we provide some distribution, some initial launch users that you can't otherwise get.
[00:23:30.840 --> 00:23:40.200] So we did invest, we did learn, and now we'll see over the next, you know, five years if those startups that we invested in turn out to be big winners or fizzle out.
[00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:42.600] Like, did you share numbers about how many subscribers you had?
[00:23:42.600 --> 00:23:50.280] Like, if you have a newsletter in crypto and it's doing, you know, seven figures in revenue a year, like, how big does that newsletter have to be?
[00:23:50.920 --> 00:24:04.840] We didn't share that, but yeah, I think if you can get a newsletter, I think in general, if you can get a newsletter to, let's call it 100 to 150,000 subscribers, which is, I think, where you guys said you're at.
[00:24:05.800 --> 00:24:06.120] I'm listening.
[00:24:06.200 --> 00:24:07.560] And you have high engagement.
[00:24:07.560 --> 00:24:08.840] Do you have a high open rate?
[00:24:08.840 --> 00:24:09.080] Yeah.
[00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:11.240] We are at mid-30s.
[00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:13.160] 30%, 40%.
[00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:13.480] Great.
[00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:17.320] So we were like 42, 43, something like that percent open rate.
[00:24:17.800 --> 00:24:20.520] Now, the hard part is we were every day.
[00:24:20.600 --> 00:24:21.480] So that creates a lot.
[00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:25.480] We were three times a week, which I thought was a lot, but you guys are daily, which is an insane little.
[00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:29.160] We did five, now six days a week.
[00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:30.440] But three is not bad.
[00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:31.640] I thought you were going to say once a week.
[00:24:31.800 --> 00:24:33.240] So, three is not bad either.
[00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:36.600] My guess, you guys have, you said 120k subscribers?
[00:24:36.600 --> 00:24:37.480] Yeah.
[00:24:38.120 --> 00:24:41.720] So let's say, I don't know, something like 50,000 people open every email.
[00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:43.720] You're sending that three times a week.
[00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:45.280] Ben, what's the math on that?
[00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:46.160] What should they be generating?
[00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:47.600] Let's do this real quick live.
[00:24:47.600 --> 00:24:56.800] So, yeah, I think our back of the envelope is like for every 50k subs, you should be able to make like $1,500 a day in ads.
[00:24:56.800 --> 00:25:02.000] So, I think you should be able to sell each ad for each day for like $3,500.
[00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:03.120] Ooh, that's a lot of money.
[00:25:03.120 --> 00:25:04.400] I like the sound of that.
[00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:05.200] Yeah, right now we're selling it.
[00:25:05.760 --> 00:25:14.480] You guys could be making something like between, let's say, conservatively $5K a week and aggressively $10K a week on your newsletter.
[00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:15.760] I love this free consultant.
[00:25:15.760 --> 00:25:16.320] Advertising.
[00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:18.560] By the way, we got to do this.
[00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:24.800] And by the way, I actually think, and now I have a more updated view of this, which is that you should not sell ads on your newsletter.
[00:25:24.800 --> 00:25:30.800] You should figure out what ad should go in the newsletter and then you should build or own a piece of that company.
[00:25:30.800 --> 00:25:31.280] Wow, yeah.
[00:25:31.280 --> 00:25:32.480] Like Joe Rogan does, right?
[00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:38.480] He's like, I'm going to make my own supplements and then advertise my own shit on my show instead of advertising somebody else's stuff on my show.
[00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:45.680] Yeah, and he does both, but like, and both is probably the actual optimal thing so you can like fill the full inventory.
[00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:57.440] But I would just take the approach of if I'm going to build this audience and I'm going to promote a product, I'm going to also own the majority or at least significant stake in that product.
[00:25:57.920 --> 00:25:59.680] That will hold you true to two things.
[00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:03.040] Number one, you'll only promote stuff you actually like and believe in.
[00:26:03.040 --> 00:26:08.960] Number two, you'll only get you won't just try to grow your sub list to grow a top-line number.
[00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:15.760] You will go for quality of reader and trust built with that reader because they are going to actually be your customer.
[00:26:15.760 --> 00:26:17.360] You're the one putting in the ad slot.
[00:26:17.360 --> 00:26:19.360] So you need them to be not just a bot.
[00:26:19.360 --> 00:26:27.360] You need them to be like a real human being who's got income, who trusts you guys and has needs, and you can fill those needs with like some product.
[00:26:27.360 --> 00:26:28.800] This is all excellent advice.
[00:26:28.800 --> 00:26:29.680] I'm taking notes.
[00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:34.280] So I think the other part that I'm the most curious about is just the growth part.
[00:26:34.280 --> 00:26:38.440] Our newsletter has been kind of stalled around, you know, like 125K people.
[00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:44.600] And you guys grew your newsletter in record time from zero to whatever it was, something that was worth selling.
[00:26:44.600 --> 00:26:46.680] How do you grow a newsletter so fast?
[00:26:46.840 --> 00:26:48.360] Yeah, there's a bunch of different ways.
[00:26:48.360 --> 00:26:56.600] I think the best way is your content is so good, it gets forwarded, or your content is so good when you post it on Twitter or other places.
[00:26:56.600 --> 00:26:58.600] People click, they read, they subscribe.
[00:26:58.600 --> 00:26:59.560] That's the best way.
[00:26:59.560 --> 00:27:02.200] So you basically blog your way, right?
[00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:04.760] You do one-off blogs, and somebody says, that was dope.
[00:27:04.760 --> 00:27:06.200] I'd like some more of that, please.
[00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:09.560] And then you say, this button gives you more of that on a regular basis.
[00:27:09.560 --> 00:27:11.800] That's the best way to grow a newsletter.
[00:27:11.800 --> 00:27:15.880] There are other ways, you know, referrals and, you know, word of mouth.
[00:27:16.120 --> 00:27:19.080] So you build the referral program or an ambassador program, things like that.
[00:27:19.080 --> 00:27:20.200] You could do paid acquisition.
[00:27:20.200 --> 00:27:21.560] So people do paid acquisition.
[00:27:21.560 --> 00:27:23.240] They buy readers.
[00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:29.880] And it sort of goes like, as you would guess, it sort of gets worse and worse the further down that spectrum you go.
[00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:37.080] The further away you go from, I post organically people see it, they read the content, and they say, more, please, right?
[00:27:37.080 --> 00:27:39.240] That's like the gold standard.
[00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:48.200] And the sort of like the worst is, you know, the all-time worst is you, I don't know, buy Indian fake users, right?
[00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:50.040] Like, you know, that's like the worst, right?
[00:27:50.040 --> 00:27:51.080] So how do you grow a newsletter?
[00:27:51.080 --> 00:27:53.240] You can choose where you want to live.
[00:27:53.240 --> 00:27:58.600] I think for you guys, the better case would be, you know, like how much traffic does like an indie hackers get?
[00:27:59.000 --> 00:27:59.960] Do you guys talk about that?
[00:28:00.280 --> 00:28:02.600] Yeah, a couple million visits a month.
[00:28:02.600 --> 00:28:03.000] Great.
[00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:05.400] So why are you not growing the newsletter faster from that?
[00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:05.560] Right?
[00:28:05.560 --> 00:28:10.840] Because it was like you're most popular driving people to sign up for the community, sign up for the website, sign up for the forum, which I think pretty slow.
[00:28:11.080 --> 00:28:14.680] There's another piece that I actually want to get your opinion on.
[00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:22.720] I mean, both of y'all's opinion on, which is like kind of the secret to the way that we run the newsletter as just a couple of people.
[00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:23.840] We don't have a big staff.
[00:28:23.840 --> 00:28:29.600] The way that we run the entire website is we kind of leverage the power of crowdsourcing.
[00:28:29.600 --> 00:28:33.360] So right now we put out three newsletters a week.
[00:28:33.360 --> 00:28:37.840] We have like a really talented New York Times journalist who's our editor.
[00:28:37.840 --> 00:28:44.000] But what she's doing is she's finding like the best content that kind of fits a basic theme for our newsletter.
[00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:45.840] Like you know, we've got three main stories.
[00:28:45.840 --> 00:28:48.080] It's kind of a ripoff in a lot of ways of the hustle.
[00:28:48.080 --> 00:28:49.920] It's got that kind of like magazine style.
[00:28:50.560 --> 00:28:53.440] But we don't directly control the content.
[00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:55.600] We don't like have like a staff of writers.
[00:28:55.600 --> 00:28:57.440] So we're not writing a rich amount.
[00:28:57.520 --> 00:28:57.760] Exactly.
[00:28:57.760 --> 00:29:01.280] So like what Ben said, you're kind of building this cult.
[00:29:01.360 --> 00:29:02.320] You have your own voice.
[00:29:02.320 --> 00:29:04.960] That's something that we don't necessarily have that much control over.
[00:29:05.040 --> 00:29:06.640] We like our opinion on this.
[00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:10.320] Yeah, curating works like my five tweet newsletter, right?
[00:29:10.320 --> 00:29:11.280] So I would do this thing.
[00:29:11.280 --> 00:29:15.040] Five tweet Tuesday was basically like, hey, I'm on Twitter all the time.
[00:29:15.040 --> 00:29:16.800] I see interesting stuff.
[00:29:16.800 --> 00:29:17.840] Ben sees interesting stuff.
[00:29:17.840 --> 00:29:19.120] This is Ben's superpower, by the way.
[00:29:19.120 --> 00:29:20.400] He's a great curator.
[00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:25.280] And we just show you, like, yo, if you didn't want to waste your time on social media this week, just read this email.
[00:29:25.280 --> 00:29:26.800] It's five of the most interesting tweets.
[00:29:26.800 --> 00:29:33.760] One will make you laugh, two will make you think, and one you'll disagree with, but it'll force you to kind of like articulate your own thoughts in your head.
[00:29:33.760 --> 00:29:36.560] And that's kind of the core format.
[00:29:36.560 --> 00:29:41.200] And so that's a fully curated thing, but it has a little bit of commentary from me in it.
[00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:43.040] So it's like, here's the tweet.
[00:29:43.040 --> 00:29:43.680] Here's my take.
[00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:44.320] Here's the tweet.
[00:29:44.320 --> 00:29:45.280] Here's my take.
[00:29:45.520 --> 00:29:46.480] And people love that email.
[00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:47.280] That's a good email.
[00:29:47.280 --> 00:29:52.240] But it doesn't build the same level of trust or value as like, you know, original content does.
[00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:54.960] So it's, you know, depends on the goal.
[00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:57.520] I started that one because I was like, look, I got this email list.
[00:29:57.520 --> 00:29:58.640] I just don't want it to go stale.
[00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:01.880] If I don't send anything for eight months, this is worthless.
[00:30:01.880 --> 00:30:04.760] If I have to write original content, I don't have the time right now.
[00:29:59.840 --> 00:30:07.160] I'm running two businesses, so I can't do that.
[00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:09.960] So I needed something in the middle, something to just keep the list warm.
[00:30:09.960 --> 00:30:11.400] And that was my solution.
[00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:16.600] It's kind of like Tem Ferris' like Five Bullet Friday or whatever, where it's like, okay, I've got this huge audience, my podcast.
[00:30:16.600 --> 00:30:17.240] People love me.
[00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:22.040] I might as well have like some very easy to curate newsletter because I can monetize.
[00:30:22.040 --> 00:30:22.920] Exactly.
[00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:26.840] The other thing you do, Sean, like I think that's cool is like you've got your podcast, right?
[00:30:26.840 --> 00:30:30.520] What you talked about, which is huge and like feeds into this.
[00:30:30.520 --> 00:30:34.600] How much work does it take you to do your podcast?
[00:30:34.600 --> 00:30:37.080] Because we are trying to get better at podcasting.
[00:30:37.080 --> 00:30:40.840] Like this is like, I don't know, like our sixth or seventh episode where Channing is joining me.
[00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:45.160] Channing's like at my college library right now or something.
[00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:46.360] Where are you, Channing?
[00:30:46.600 --> 00:30:47.400] Did you use it on?
[00:30:47.800 --> 00:30:48.600] I am Joe.
[00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:50.680] I'm just a nerd.
[00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:52.600] Like, this is Instagram.
[00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:53.400] This is real.
[00:30:54.040 --> 00:30:55.000] I read this article.
[00:30:55.000 --> 00:31:04.040] My girlfriend sent this to me to poke fun at me about how a lot of millionaires and startup people are spending whatever.
[00:31:04.040 --> 00:31:11.000] They'll spend like hundreds of thousands of dollars for someone to kind of like bust in a podcast background library with like color coding background.
[00:31:12.120 --> 00:31:13.160] But I'm just a nerd.
[00:31:13.160 --> 00:31:15.880] Like this is just like these are the books I've been toting around for.
[00:31:16.760 --> 00:31:18.440] How many of those books have you read?
[00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:20.040] Give me a percentage of books.
[00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:21.000] Channing reads constantly.
[00:31:21.880 --> 00:31:23.560] I'm on about 50%.
[00:31:23.560 --> 00:31:26.920] I just got three books this, like literally this morning.
[00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:28.280] I read a book a week.
[00:31:28.280 --> 00:31:31.080] Like it's just like a constant, a constant thing.
[00:31:31.080 --> 00:31:32.040] That's all Channing does.
[00:31:32.040 --> 00:31:32.760] He just reads.
[00:31:32.760 --> 00:31:35.240] Every time I talk to this guy, he's telling me about a book he's read.
[00:31:35.240 --> 00:31:35.480] All right.
[00:31:35.480 --> 00:31:41.400] So I don't know if you guys can see this kind of off-frame, maybe, but I have these four books on my bookshelf here.
[00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:42.120] Four.
[00:31:43.400 --> 00:31:44.960] How many of those books have you read, Sean?
[00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:47.120] This book is called Tango Lessons.
[00:31:47.360 --> 00:31:48.240] I don't even know if there's paid.
[00:31:48.320 --> 00:31:49.280] Oh, there are words inside of it.
[00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:51.440] Why is that a fucking not a YouTube video?
[00:31:51.520 --> 00:31:52.400] Let's be honest.
[00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:57.920] You could go on Etsy and you could buy, it's called cream-colored books.
[00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:01.600] And so you just buy these neutral white-looking books that look good.
[00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:03.360] They look good on your shelf.
[00:32:03.360 --> 00:32:05.680] And so that's literally my book.
[00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:07.520] So you did actually read my phone.
[00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:12.080] You did the books in the background thing, and you only got four, and one of them is on Tango.
[00:32:12.080 --> 00:32:14.320] Are you trying to learn how to Tango, or is that just like...
[00:32:14.320 --> 00:32:16.000] No, I just read that for the first time.
[00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:16.960] I didn't even know what was on there.
[00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:18.560] I just knew it was a cream-colored book.
[00:32:19.040 --> 00:32:19.680] I didn't decide.
[00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:23.120] The designer was like, you need books to look sophisticated.
[00:32:23.120 --> 00:32:25.360] And so she sent me a link and I bought it.
[00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:27.920] So that's, you know, that's how I roll.
[00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:30.800] But, okay, so what you're saying, podcasting.
[00:32:31.040 --> 00:32:32.400] What's your question about podcasting?
[00:32:33.760 --> 00:32:34.800] We were talking last year.
[00:32:34.800 --> 00:32:38.800] You're talking about how the all-in podcast is billionaires talking about billionaire shit.
[00:32:38.800 --> 00:32:42.560] You're talking about how your show, My First Million, is like Millionaires Talking About Millionaire shit.
[00:32:42.560 --> 00:32:44.000] And then Milk Rhodes is kind of the same.
[00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:46.160] You know, it's like Eddie Become a Millionaire with crypto.
[00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:51.680] And then Andy Hackers is kind of like thousandaires talking about thousandaire shit.
[00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:53.520] And then we interview people making like 10 grand a month.
[00:32:53.520 --> 00:32:55.600] And like, that's life-changing.
[00:32:55.600 --> 00:32:57.840] And on your podcast, you also interviewed Peter Levels.
[00:32:57.840 --> 00:33:00.400] I think Sam brought him on your show, and you're like, who's this guy?
[00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:01.840] And like, why do we want to talk to him?
[00:33:01.840 --> 00:33:02.480] You know?
[00:33:02.800 --> 00:33:07.520] No, no, I'm a fan of Peter, but he did come on and he had one of the highest rating episodes.
[00:33:07.600 --> 00:33:08.000] He's cool, dude.
[00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:08.560] He's got a huge.
[00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:09.840] He brings an audience.
[00:33:09.840 --> 00:33:10.320] People love it.
[00:33:10.560 --> 00:33:14.080] A lot of people want to know how to just be one guy and just make it.
[00:33:14.080 --> 00:33:22.600] But I remember Sam talking about why would you spend 60 hours a week trying to make you know $100,000 if you could spend 60 hours a week trying to make $100 million?
[00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:22.760] Right?
[00:33:22.800 --> 00:33:24.240] It's kind of like a very different ethos.
[00:33:24.800 --> 00:33:26.720] What do you two think about that?
[00:33:27.360 --> 00:33:30.920] I had the same bit of advice given to me.
[00:33:29.840 --> 00:33:31.800] My dad told me that.
[00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:41.240] He goes, You know, this is when I was doing that restaurant idea, which is like the very first idea I had, very first business idea I ever had was to create the Chipotle for sushi.
[00:33:41.240 --> 00:33:44.760] So it's a stupid idea, but I started winning business planning competition.
[00:33:44.760 --> 00:33:46.840] So I thought it was the best idea ever.
[00:33:46.840 --> 00:33:54.920] Now, my dad was like, Restaurants, well, you know, son, not only do they always fail, even when they succeed, they don't do very well.
[00:33:55.400 --> 00:33:56.360] I was like, what?
[00:33:56.360 --> 00:33:57.240] No, it's going to be huge.
[00:33:57.240 --> 00:33:58.120] It's going to be a chain.
[00:33:58.120 --> 00:33:59.320] And he's like, okay, maybe.
[00:33:59.320 --> 00:34:05.000] But he's like, you know, you're doing this deal right now, or like you're trying to put this one thing together.
[00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:07.880] And if it works, it'll make $150,000.
[00:34:08.040 --> 00:34:09.000] I'm doing this deal.
[00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:12.200] He worked in the BP, so he worked in the energy industry.
[00:34:12.200 --> 00:34:16.920] And he's like, you know, there is no meeting for a deal that has hundreds of thousands of dollars.
[00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:21.320] Like, there has to be an extra zero or two for there to even be a deal.
[00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:24.120] Like, they don't deal in numbers less than that.
[00:34:24.120 --> 00:34:31.320] And he's like, a small project and a big project, if you're working on them, will both take up all your time.
[00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:33.080] And I actually think that's very true.
[00:34:33.080 --> 00:34:37.800] I think there's this big misconception about passive income.
[00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:41.960] Very rarely do you find something that's truly like passive income.
[00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:56.840] And most of the time, if you want something to succeed, you're going to put in, you know, pretty solid effort, pretty solid hours, until you build up enough expertise that you can do something in three hours that takes somebody else 30 hours to do, which does happen.
[00:34:56.840 --> 00:34:59.240] And now has happened for me in a couple of cases.
[00:34:59.240 --> 00:35:06.880] But at the beginning, you know, before when you're pre-rich, when you're pre-figured shit out, you should just plan that.
[00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:10.200] Whatever you're doing is going to take up, you know, all your work time.
[00:35:10.200 --> 00:35:14.280] And so you just are deciding, am I going to spend all that work time on something small or something big?
[00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:15.440] It's up to you.
[00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:18.640] The odds of success are not that dramatically different.
[00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:26.800] I would say maybe when you get to the category of I'm trying to build a billion-dollar company, the odds are somewhat different.
[00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:34.160] But to build something that's going to make millions of dollars versus hundreds of thousands of dollars or tens of thousands of dollars, they're kind of the same likelihood of success.
[00:35:34.160 --> 00:35:37.200] It's just, you know, project selection.
[00:35:37.200 --> 00:35:38.880] Okay, so let's get you on the record here.
[00:35:39.200 --> 00:35:44.480] Would you say officially right now that you think that indie hackers is small boy stuff?
[00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:51.760] I think the way you guys are doing it is officially certified grade A small boy stuff.
[00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:52.800] Yes.
[00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:54.320] Let me tell you why.
[00:35:54.640 --> 00:35:56.960] You got bought by Stripe.
[00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:57.520] Amazing.
[00:35:57.520 --> 00:35:59.600] That's big boy stuff.
[00:35:59.920 --> 00:36:01.120] It's been six.
[00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:02.160] Hold on.
[00:36:02.160 --> 00:36:03.600] Six years.
[00:36:03.600 --> 00:36:03.920] Six years.
[00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:06.640] This is the phone that was out when you got bought.
[00:36:07.120 --> 00:36:07.920] That's not even a phone.
[00:36:08.080 --> 00:36:08.880] That's like calculating.
[00:36:09.200 --> 00:36:10.000] This is a Blackberry.
[00:36:10.240 --> 00:36:10.720] What is that?
[00:36:12.560 --> 00:36:13.680] This is how I texted you.
[00:36:13.680 --> 00:36:15.360] Congratulations when you got bought.
[00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:15.920] How are you?
[00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:19.360] You're flipping up the top of the phone to access the buttons.
[00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:26.560] So vesting out your full term and more, I believe, is small boy stuff.
[00:36:26.560 --> 00:36:30.960] If you want to be an entrepreneur, because basically what you did, I don't know if you want to be an entrepreneur.
[00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:31.840] Maybe you don't.
[00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:34.320] If you don't, then it's not small boy stuff.
[00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:39.840] If you said, no, I want to have like super chill, I want to read five books a week and chill, like fantastic.
[00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:42.240] Then you're doing, you're living life on your terms.
[00:36:42.240 --> 00:36:43.520] That is not small boy stuff.
[00:36:43.520 --> 00:36:44.800] That is big boy stuff.
[00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:52.720] But if you wanted to be an indie hacker or you wanted to be an entrepreneur, then not doing entrepreneurship for six years is probably not a good idea, right?
[00:36:52.720 --> 00:36:57.120] Like, you know, you don't just take off six years of your prime to not do it.
[00:36:57.120 --> 00:36:58.080] So let's ask that question.
[00:36:58.080 --> 00:36:58.400] Yeah.
[00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:03.720] Do you want to be an entrepreneur or do you want to have a really dope, fun lifestyle doing something else?
[00:36:59.520 --> 00:37:04.200] What is the goal?
[00:37:05.560 --> 00:37:06.200] My role model.
[00:37:06.200 --> 00:37:07.960] Peter Levels is my role model.
[00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:10.200] He's one of the reasons that I started Indie Hackers.
[00:37:10.200 --> 00:37:13.080] And he's an entrepreneur, but like more than anything, he's just a creator.
[00:37:13.080 --> 00:37:14.040] He tweeted something.
[00:37:14.040 --> 00:37:16.840] Like people were always saying everything I do turns to gold.
[00:37:16.840 --> 00:37:18.120] I've made millions of dollars.
[00:37:18.120 --> 00:37:20.440] Like here's a list of 96 projects I've made.
[00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:22.120] Only four have made any money, right?
[00:37:22.120 --> 00:37:24.520] He's just building shit because he likes to build shit.
[00:37:24.520 --> 00:37:26.040] I'm kind of the same way, right?
[00:37:26.040 --> 00:37:28.600] Like I left San Francisco a couple years ago.
[00:37:28.600 --> 00:37:33.000] Sean, you and Sam talk about like this chat group that you're a part of where it's everyone is like trying to blow up.
[00:37:33.080 --> 00:37:33.480] You were in it.
[00:37:33.560 --> 00:37:34.120] I was in it.
[00:37:34.120 --> 00:37:34.760] Yeah, I was in it.
[00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:37.560] I was like, you know, I'm not as excited about this shit as these guys are.
[00:37:37.560 --> 00:37:40.840] Like you're all trying to blow your Twitter accounts up to like 100,000 people.
[00:37:40.840 --> 00:37:42.280] I'm like, I just don't care.
[00:37:42.760 --> 00:37:43.560] Didn't you get kicked out?
[00:37:43.560 --> 00:37:48.120] Because it sounds like you're saying you quit, but it sounds like I think I heard inactive.
[00:37:48.200 --> 00:37:49.560] He just he just wouldn't he didn't talk.
[00:37:49.560 --> 00:37:49.960] I didn't talk.
[00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:50.680] I learned something.
[00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:51.960] I learned it.
[00:37:52.040 --> 00:37:52.600] Not for me.
[00:37:52.600 --> 00:37:53.480] Not for me, right?
[00:37:53.480 --> 00:38:00.360] Like, I think there's a bug of just like making more and more and more and more money that hits a lot of people and it's super motivational, right?
[00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:02.920] But for me, it's like, I actually just like building stuff.
[00:38:02.920 --> 00:38:03.160] Okay.
[00:38:03.160 --> 00:38:03.400] Okay.
[00:38:03.400 --> 00:38:04.360] So you like building stuff.
[00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:05.000] You want to be a creator.
[00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:05.240] Exactly.
[00:38:05.480 --> 00:38:07.960] Now, okay, let's go on those terms.
[00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:12.440] Last six years, how many things have you built and how many has Peter Levels built?
[00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:18.760] If he's the MJ of the indie hacker, right?
[00:38:18.760 --> 00:38:21.160] He's the MJ of indie hackers, let's say.
[00:38:21.720 --> 00:38:24.280] Are you Kobe or are you GRA?
[00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:27.320] I don't know if you're an NBA fan, but like, you know, where are you?
[00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:28.520] I'm like, how much stuff have you built?
[00:38:28.680 --> 00:38:33.240] I'm like that kid who was at my high school who was like, you know, second string on the basketball team, not really.
[00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:34.760] Wearing all the gear.
[00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:36.120] Bought all the gear.
[00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:37.560] Got the Jordans.
[00:38:37.560 --> 00:38:37.880] Right.
[00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:40.360] I'm practicing my jumps, but I'm like, I'm not getting playtime.
[00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:42.280] But I think for me, it's like we built some cool shit.
[00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:44.680] Like, we have this huge directory of products at Indie Hackers.
[00:38:44.680 --> 00:38:46.160] We have this cool community.
[00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:47.680] Like, I just want to be a builder.
[00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:49.280] Channing, how about you?
[00:38:49.520 --> 00:38:50.480] Are you similarly minded?
[00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:51.600] Is that your goal too?
[00:38:51.600 --> 00:38:54.080] I mean, so we kind of have different trajectories.
[00:38:54.560 --> 00:39:00.800] Courtland was doing startups and kind of had an aspiration to do startups, you know, forever.
[00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:04.240] I mean, he was lugging around like a Bill Gates book when he was 13 years old.
[00:39:04.240 --> 00:39:05.040] He went to MIT.
[00:39:05.120 --> 00:39:07.520] He almost quit MIT to do his startups.
[00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:15.440] And I was like the old school entrepreneur in a way that you don't make money, which is like, I just wanted to be a novelist.
[00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:16.720] Look at the books behind me, right?
[00:39:17.520 --> 00:39:18.720] You can kind of put this together.
[00:39:18.720 --> 00:39:25.120] And the way that I ended up going in this direction is, you know, I wrote a novel.
[00:39:25.120 --> 00:39:26.240] I got a literary agent.
[00:39:26.240 --> 00:39:39.040] My agent was like, called me up on the phone and he's like, hey, I just want to let you know, you know, of the five best-selling authors that I represent, the like top best-selling one, he like works full-time as a firefighter.
[00:39:39.200 --> 00:39:45.600] The second full-time, like, yeah, it's like, he's like, he's like, just to be clear here, like, these are the winners.
[00:39:46.160 --> 00:39:51.440] If you achieve all of your dreams, like, you're going to write like, you know, five hours on weekends.
[00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:56.480] So at the exact same time, Cortland's like, we lived in San Francisco together.
[00:39:56.480 --> 00:40:00.560] I was like in this shitty sales job that I was like, you know, this is going to be a dead end.
[00:40:00.560 --> 00:40:03.680] I just got a call from my agent that's like, you're going to be doing that forever.
[00:40:03.680 --> 00:40:12.800] And Cortland's like, well, if you want to write and if you want to do that kind of a thing, like if that's your, your version of being like kind of a billionaire, why don't you teach yourself how to code?
[00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:14.320] And so I became a developer.
[00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:16.240] I got tons of free time.
[00:40:16.240 --> 00:40:20.800] And then Cortland started to hit home runs with the beginning of Indie Hackers.
[00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:24.160] And he's like, hey, can you help me with, you know, can you help me edit these interviews?
[00:40:24.160 --> 00:40:25.440] Can you help me like reach out?
[00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:26.720] Can you help me build the forum?
[00:40:26.720 --> 00:40:28.320] And it was like taking off.
[00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:29.440] And now you're a millionaire.
[00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:30.920] You can write as much as you want.
[00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:33.880] I would say Channing is someone who's living his perfect Tuesday every day.
[00:40:33.880 --> 00:40:44.920] He's got a very strict regimen, he knows exactly what he wants to do, and half of our conversations are about books he's read, and the other half is about how much he loves his life because he's doing exactly what he wants to do every single day.
[00:40:45.560 --> 00:40:49.400] You're like, Bro, this phone call telling me how much you love your life, I can't get this every day.
[00:40:50.440 --> 00:40:51.240] A little jealous.
[00:40:51.240 --> 00:40:52.520] No, that actually has happened.
[00:40:52.520 --> 00:40:59.960] That you know, another thing that I think is different in my life that I've tried to build, I don't know if this counts, but it's like a circle of like real friends.
[00:40:59.960 --> 00:41:03.640] So, Channing, you and I were talking about this the other day, like real friends versus deal friends, right?
[00:41:03.640 --> 00:41:12.120] I had like all my deal friends when I lived in San Francisco, people that I would talk to, we would chum around with, we would work together, you know, we would do deals together.
[00:41:12.120 --> 00:41:15.640] And then I left SF and I realized, like, I don't talk to any of these people anymore.
[00:41:15.640 --> 00:41:17.000] Was that a real friendship?
[00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:24.440] And everyone says that everyone loves on podcasts and saying, I'm friends with so-and-so, we're friends, but it's like we talk once a year about business.
[00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:29.320] It's like that really a friendship, or do you just get like social status from saying that you're friends with that person?
[00:41:29.320 --> 00:41:37.480] Whereas in Seattle, like no one I know knows anything about startups, and we hang out and talk about totally unrelated shit and like about our personal lives.
[00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:43.560] And so, I think for me, I've been focusing a lot more on like making real friends, which I didn't have when I was in San Francisco.
[00:41:43.560 --> 00:41:47.560] Yeah, and very underrated too, because it's really hard to make friends as an adult, I feel.
[00:41:47.560 --> 00:42:01.000] Um, like friends was kind of like spoon-fed to me, like when I'm in school or in college, or especially now with like remote work, it's like, man, even those, like, kind of like the deal, even your deal friends are kind of gone if you, if you don't go to an office every day for a lot of people, right?
[00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:04.680] Like, because they're not doing deals, they're just, those are co-workers and they kind of hang out together.
[00:42:04.680 --> 00:42:08.000] And these aren't the people I would pick to be my friend, but I see them every day.
[00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:09.320] So, so you know, why not?
[00:42:09.320 --> 00:42:11.240] And so, I think it's great that you actually have that.
[00:42:11.240 --> 00:42:14.760] And isn't that like one of the most commonly linked things to like happiness?
[00:42:15.120 --> 00:42:15.280] Yeah.
[00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:19.200] Basically, having a really strong community of family and friends.
[00:42:19.600 --> 00:42:21.200] I did some soul searching last year, man.
[00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:23.200] And that was like the answer to everything.
[00:42:23.200 --> 00:42:26.080] Your community and like a sense of purpose.
[00:42:26.080 --> 00:42:26.960] Those two things.
[00:42:26.960 --> 00:42:29.200] If you got those, you're on the track to be happy.
[00:42:29.200 --> 00:42:31.520] And if you don't, you're probably screwed.
[00:42:31.520 --> 00:42:39.600] But also, like, what you said was another common thing that I heard in the tech industry that it's, it's hard to make friends as an adult.
[00:42:39.600 --> 00:42:44.080] And then when I came to Seattle, I started meeting people who'd sort of lived in Washington their entire life.
[00:42:44.080 --> 00:42:45.200] And I would tell them the same thing.
[00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:47.360] You know, it's so hard to make friends as an adult.
[00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:49.680] And everyone just looked at me like I had two heads.
[00:42:49.680 --> 00:42:52.160] Like, why is it hard to make friends?
[00:42:52.160 --> 00:42:53.840] They're like, I have a ton of friends.
[00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:55.680] I've lived here my whole life.
[00:42:55.680 --> 00:42:56.800] I've got hundreds of friends.
[00:42:56.800 --> 00:42:57.760] I've never left.
[00:42:58.640 --> 00:42:59.760] And I thought about that.
[00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:01.600] And ultimately, it's kind of easy, right?
[00:43:01.600 --> 00:43:02.880] Like, I've been doing it now, too.
[00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:09.200] You just, like, when you meet somebody, instead of only hanging out with them one-on-one, you introduce them to all of your other friends.
[00:43:09.200 --> 00:43:14.560] And then more importantly, when people invite you to stuff, you just say yes and go out.
[00:43:14.720 --> 00:43:16.240] So you just go, right?
[00:43:16.240 --> 00:43:17.680] It's actually not that hard.
[00:43:17.680 --> 00:43:19.360] Yeah, Tony Robbins has this thing he says.
[00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:21.520] He's like, people live this box life.
[00:43:21.520 --> 00:43:24.640] He's like, you sit in your house, which is a box, and then you stare.
[00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:27.440] He's like, you go to work, you get in your box that has wheels.
[00:43:27.680 --> 00:43:30.640] You drive to your box building and you get in the box there.
[00:43:30.640 --> 00:43:31.520] You sit in your cubicle.
[00:43:31.520 --> 00:43:32.560] That's another box.
[00:43:32.560 --> 00:43:33.680] And then you type on your box.
[00:43:33.680 --> 00:43:34.800] And then you get back.
[00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:35.920] You eat your lunch box.
[00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:38.320] And then you go back and you get back in your box car.
[00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:39.280] You go back home to your box.
[00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:42.400] You watch the box on your TV and then you go to sleep, right?
[00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:48.160] Like, you know, when you're hungry, you go to the box in your fridge, and you just grab the first thing you see.
[00:43:48.160 --> 00:43:49.360] And then that's it.
[00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:51.680] And he's like, that's not right.
[00:43:51.680 --> 00:43:53.600] Don't live this box life.
[00:43:53.600 --> 00:43:54.480] Like, you, you're so.
[00:43:54.720 --> 00:44:01.880] You should have some like variety and spice and twists and turns and some flexibility with the way you live.
[00:43:59.920 --> 00:44:05.320] And I think it's worth kind of like looking at, like, zooming out.
[00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:09.480] You know, like when you have to get up, take off in an airplane and everything starts to look like ants.
[00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:15.480] It's like you kind of just like third person look at yourself and zoom out and be like, damn, I am living kind of a box life.
[00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:17.560] And like, maybe I'll like, I started doing this.
[00:44:17.560 --> 00:44:18.920] I started biking to work.
[00:44:18.920 --> 00:44:20.920] And it took me twice as long to get to work.
[00:44:20.920 --> 00:44:22.600] And I was having three times more fun.
[00:44:22.600 --> 00:44:28.040] I was like, this is way better than what I was doing before, where I would take this efficient Uber to work.
[00:44:28.040 --> 00:44:33.560] And instead, I started either walking, which took me 45 minutes to walk to work, or I would bike to work.
[00:44:33.560 --> 00:44:39.880] And it was like, even if it was cold and bitter and terrible, it was still better than the box life.
[00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:43.080] And I think that there's like, there's some wisdom in that.
[00:44:43.080 --> 00:44:50.920] I can relate to this a lot because I feel that the easiest way to get trapped in the box is to really love the box.
[00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:52.600] I feel like you're in the box.
[00:44:54.280 --> 00:44:54.840] I've heard you.
[00:44:55.160 --> 00:44:56.040] You're comfortable.
[00:44:56.040 --> 00:44:56.440] Yeah.
[00:44:56.440 --> 00:44:59.800] Well, so it can be kind of a comfort trap.
[00:44:59.800 --> 00:45:01.000] And I mean, I don't know.
[00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:09.640] I just think back over 10 years of my life and it's like finding comfort zones and then occasionally like getting riveted out of those comfort zones.
[00:45:09.640 --> 00:45:20.680] Those were all the A, the like cool stories in hindsight, but there were also all of these crazy learning opportunities that gave me tools that I could then use to like break through in other areas.
[00:45:20.680 --> 00:45:24.920] Just to be specific, for example, I had to get a job when I was in San Francisco.
[00:45:25.240 --> 00:45:31.400] I'm not exactly an introvert, but like I ended up getting this sales job and I was like definitely not looking for that.
[00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:39.240] Like it was, you know, sort of hardcore copier sales, walking into buildings, not fun work, but then I like I had to figure that out.
[00:45:39.240 --> 00:45:43.800] And then the skills that I learned from that in weird ways contributed to writing.
[00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:46.160] Like I was, I had a higher pain tol
Prompt 2: Key Takeaways
Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.
Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...".
Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive.
IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}
Prompt 3: Segments
Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.
For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion
IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.
Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
"segments": [
{
"segment_title": "Topic Discussion",
"timestamp": "01:15:30",
"key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
"segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
}
]
}
Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.
Prompt 4: Media Mentions
Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:
Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)
DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names
IMPORTANT:
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.
Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
"media_mentions": [
{
"title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
"category": "Book",
"author_artist": "N/A",
"context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
"context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
"timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
}
]
}
If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}
Prompt 5: Context Setup
You are an expert data extractor tasked with analyzing a podcast transcript.
I will provide you with part 2 of 2 from a podcast transcript.
I will then ask you to extract different types of information from this content in subsequent messages. Please confirm you have received and understood the transcript content.
Transcript section:
--> 00:44:28.040] I was like, this is way better than what I was doing before, where I would take this efficient Uber to work.
[00:44:28.040 --> 00:44:33.560] And instead, I started either walking, which took me 45 minutes to walk to work, or I would bike to work.
[00:44:33.560 --> 00:44:39.880] And it was like, even if it was cold and bitter and terrible, it was still better than the box life.
[00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:43.080] And I think that there's like, there's some wisdom in that.
[00:44:43.080 --> 00:44:50.920] I can relate to this a lot because I feel that the easiest way to get trapped in the box is to really love the box.
[00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:52.600] I feel like you're in the box.
[00:44:54.280 --> 00:44:54.840] I've heard you.
[00:44:55.160 --> 00:44:56.040] You're comfortable.
[00:44:56.040 --> 00:44:56.440] Yeah.
[00:44:56.440 --> 00:44:59.800] Well, so it can be kind of a comfort trap.
[00:44:59.800 --> 00:45:01.000] And I mean, I don't know.
[00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:09.640] I just think back over 10 years of my life and it's like finding comfort zones and then occasionally like getting riveted out of those comfort zones.
[00:45:09.640 --> 00:45:20.680] Those were all the A, the like cool stories in hindsight, but there were also all of these crazy learning opportunities that gave me tools that I could then use to like break through in other areas.
[00:45:20.680 --> 00:45:24.920] Just to be specific, for example, I had to get a job when I was in San Francisco.
[00:45:25.240 --> 00:45:31.400] I'm not exactly an introvert, but like I ended up getting this sales job and I was like definitely not looking for that.
[00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:39.240] Like it was, you know, sort of hardcore copier sales, walking into buildings, not fun work, but then I like I had to figure that out.
[00:45:39.240 --> 00:45:43.800] And then the skills that I learned from that in weird ways contributed to writing.
[00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:46.160] Like I was, I had a higher pain tolerance, right?
[00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:52.320] It contributed to just my personal, like my self-concept of like, no, I can fucking learn anything, et cetera.
[00:45:52.320 --> 00:46:07.040] And a really interesting insight into how to break out of that box, I heard from Sam on your show where he mentioned he has his four values that he figures out how he can like kind of level up on whatever every year.
[00:46:07.040 --> 00:46:10.640] And for him, it's fun, family, finance, and fitness.
[00:46:10.640 --> 00:46:18.560] And like those different buckets, he just says, okay, what like, you know, sort of fitness project do I want to like push my limits and get out of my comfort zone on, right?
[00:46:18.560 --> 00:46:23.760] And just knowing that one little heuristic, he doesn't have to know in advance like what particular projects.
[00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:25.840] Like that's that's still this mystery box, right?
[00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:30.000] And it's going to naturally lead him to go into these weird adventures.
[00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:35.600] And I heard that and I immediately ran to Cortland and was like, ah, it's sort of similar to my thing, right?
[00:46:35.600 --> 00:46:42.400] Because I've got, you know, connections, that's connections, craftsmanship, contribution, and character.
[00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:51.360] And it's like, yeah, it's just like easy to remember, but I mean, it's this thing that like in a way forces me to do random shocks.
[00:46:51.520 --> 00:46:52.560] I've got connections, naturally.
[00:46:53.040 --> 00:46:56.400] Character, cocaine, and as long as it starts with a C, I'm doing it.
[00:46:57.360 --> 00:46:58.400] I think that's right.
[00:46:59.040 --> 00:47:01.200] You know, it's actually a good point.
[00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:04.800] A good bit of life advice is ask yourself different questions.
[00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:10.640] So if you ask yourself a question, most people's the quality of questions they ask themselves are terrible.
[00:47:10.640 --> 00:47:15.520] Most people's questions they ask themselves are basically insults wrapped in a question.
[00:47:15.520 --> 00:47:18.160] So it's like, why do I always do this?
[00:47:18.160 --> 00:47:19.480] Or why can't I?
[00:47:19.480 --> 00:47:20.720] Why can't I find somebody?
[00:47:20.720 --> 00:47:22.400] Why am I so blah, blah, blah?
[00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:23.680] So it's basically, those are the insults.
[00:47:23.680 --> 00:47:25.920] That's like the worst type of question you can ask yourself.
[00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:34.920] The other bad trap, which a lot of successful people fall into, is they keep repeating the same questions that get them the results they're already getting.
[00:47:35.240 --> 00:47:38.920] So I call this the stressor achiever persona.
[00:47:38.920 --> 00:47:41.240] It's basically a person who achieves things.
[00:47:41.240 --> 00:47:46.040] They're stressed out the whole time and their life is like very narrow.
[00:47:46.040 --> 00:47:48.600] Like they're just really going on some track, some ladder.
[00:47:48.600 --> 00:47:58.680] And that ladder first was go to AP biology and AP English and then get to the get to the good school, then get to the good school, get to the good job, and get to promotion, get to the manager.
[00:47:58.680 --> 00:48:02.600] And then even when they go to entrepreneurship and they're like, yeah, F, the career ladder.
[00:48:02.600 --> 00:48:06.040] Then they're like, I raised my seed round, then my series A, then my series B.
[00:48:06.040 --> 00:48:07.880] It's like, you just found a new ladder, bro.
[00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:09.400] Like, you're just, you're still ladder.
[00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:11.080] You're still on some track.
[00:48:11.080 --> 00:48:20.280] And not to say the tracks are all bad, but they lead you to just like narrow your sense of what's possible and what the questions you ask yourself on a day-to-day basis.
[00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:26.360] So a question that I think is worth asking is: what's something I'm looking forward to a lot?
[00:48:26.360 --> 00:48:30.360] What's something I'm really excited about in my life right now?
[00:48:30.680 --> 00:48:34.920] And when you ask this, it's surprising how hard it is to come up with this.
[00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:37.720] It's kind of disappointing how hard it is to come up with a good answer.
[00:48:37.720 --> 00:48:42.440] The other disappointing thing is if the thing you're saying, the thing you're excited about is like six months away.
[00:48:42.440 --> 00:48:48.840] It's like, wow, all right, that's a lot of hours between now and then, you know, like, and can I pull the future forward?
[00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:50.680] Can I pull some fun forward?
[00:48:50.680 --> 00:48:55.560] And as soon as you ask yourself that question, sure enough, you're like, well, I can just go do that tomorrow.
[00:48:55.560 --> 00:48:57.800] Or I'm going to fucking go to the zoo tomorrow.
[00:48:57.800 --> 00:49:01.080] Or I'm going to like, and I'm going to call a friend and we're going to go play some tennis.
[00:49:01.080 --> 00:49:02.600] We're going to go do something.
[00:49:02.600 --> 00:49:04.280] And you will find yourself pulling it forward.
[00:49:04.280 --> 00:49:24.960] And so, whichever area of your life you are like caring about, like the family, the fitness, the fun, the finances, whatever it is, like it's good to think about what's a better question I can ask myself because most of life is just a dialogue you're having with yourself, and um, rarely do we upgrade that dialogue.
[00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:31.200] We have the same old, same old conversations with ourselves, and like if you change that, all your actions then change.
[00:49:31.200 --> 00:49:34.720] And I think that's like a really underrated thing that most people don't do.
[00:49:34.720 --> 00:49:44.640] I think in that vein, one of the things you can do that's like pretty creative and will get you thinking differently is to literally just impersonate other people when you're asking yourself these questions.
[00:49:44.640 --> 00:49:46.160] Like, I'll do this with podcasters sometimes.
[00:49:46.240 --> 00:49:48.000] We're like, How would Lex Friedman ask this question?
[00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:48.160] Right?
[00:49:48.160 --> 00:49:52.560] If he was talking to you, he'd be like, Oh, you know, Sean, like, what's the biggest source of love in your life, right?
[00:49:52.560 --> 00:49:55.680] And he was just, I would never think of that question, but like, he'll think about that, right?
[00:49:55.840 --> 00:49:56.240] Next question.
[00:49:56.240 --> 00:50:00.800] Or, like, yeah, how would Patrick Collison like interview or Tyler Cowan or how would you like ask a question?
[00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:10.240] And I think there's just something that happens when you impersonate somebody else that you instantly adopt an entirely new perspective on the world that you just wouldn't naturally come to on your own.
[00:50:10.240 --> 00:50:10.800] Totally.
[00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:12.080] I'll give you an example of that.
[00:50:12.080 --> 00:50:18.080] Um, we have a buddy, me and Ben have this buddy, uh, Suli, who's like, you know, one of our best friends, but also kind of like a business mentor.
[00:50:18.080 --> 00:50:20.800] So, like, on a personal level, we're really good friends.
[00:50:21.120 --> 00:50:25.360] From a business point of view, he's like a black belt, and I consider myself like a blue belt or something like that.
[00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:30.720] So, I'm like, I try to, you know, spar with him so I can see where I can improve.
[00:50:30.720 --> 00:50:32.800] And he helped us out a lot with the Milk Road.
[00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:36.640] And I remember we had the conversation about when to sell or should we sell.
[00:50:36.640 --> 00:50:40.400] And it was like, hey, this is kind of crazy to sell this thing one year in when it's working.
[00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:45.600] Like, it's, it'd be one thing if, like, this was a bad business, but this is actually a good business.
[00:50:45.600 --> 00:50:48.640] And we're like, shouldn't we just hold on to it?
[00:50:48.640 --> 00:50:56.400] And it's like he asked a bunch of questions that, like, I've now hung out with him enough that I already knew what he was going to ask.
[00:50:56.400 --> 00:51:01.480] And therefore, like, I could actually just simulate the whole conversation in my head and get to better clarity.
[00:50:59.840 --> 00:51:03.800] And I'll give you an example of some of the questions that he asked.
[00:51:03.880 --> 00:51:11.960] But it's like, I could have bet you $10 he was going to ask these questions, which is, you know, he would point out that, well, if you're thinking about selling, there's a part of you that wants to.
[00:51:12.200 --> 00:51:12.680] Why?
[00:51:12.680 --> 00:51:13.960] Why do you want to?
[00:51:13.960 --> 00:51:16.360] Because you're saying it's a great business, blah, blah, blah.
[00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:16.920] Like, cool.
[00:51:16.920 --> 00:51:19.560] And you wouldn't even consider this unless there was something.
[00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:21.640] Are they offering an outlandish price?
[00:51:21.640 --> 00:51:24.040] Is there something, some risk you're worried about?
[00:51:24.040 --> 00:51:26.760] Is there something else you want to go do?
[00:51:26.760 --> 00:51:28.200] Like, what's the reason?
[00:51:28.200 --> 00:51:31.320] And so he asked that, and that got me to get more clear.
[00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:34.840] The other thing he said was, I was like, yeah, we're just getting started, blah, blah, blah.
[00:51:34.920 --> 00:51:39.720] He goes, well, there is another possibility, which is all the easy stuff is done.
[00:51:39.720 --> 00:51:41.240] And now comes the grind.
[00:51:41.240 --> 00:51:44.200] And he's like, so which is more true?
[00:51:44.840 --> 00:51:48.760] Are you just getting going and like now it's going to get easier from here?
[00:51:48.760 --> 00:51:52.760] Or did you take all the low-hanging fruit and is it going to get a lot harder from here?
[00:51:52.760 --> 00:52:02.360] And again, like, forget the other, I asked these questions because for somebody out there who's got their business and they're thinking about what to do with it, these are really useful questions that are high-level.
[00:52:02.360 --> 00:52:05.240] These are black belt questions, not like beginner questions.
[00:52:05.240 --> 00:52:10.360] But the second thing is, to your point, I kind of knew what he would say on a bunch of the things that I was going to bring up.
[00:52:10.680 --> 00:52:21.720] And actually, what ends up happening is I just start auditing and editing my sentence before it even comes out of my mouth because I'm like, I know I can't get away with saying this bullshit around this guy because he sniffs out bullshit.
[00:52:21.720 --> 00:52:25.160] So let me just cut the bullshit out to begin with and not even say it.
[00:52:25.560 --> 00:52:29.240] It's like you'll let yourself off the hook, but if you impersonate him, you know, he wouldn't let you off the hook.
[00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:30.360] He would never let me off the hook.
[00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:34.440] Like, this will happen often with when I'm hitting a plateau or complaining about something.
[00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:36.440] It's like, oh, it's so hard to do this.
[00:52:36.440 --> 00:52:38.920] It's like, I know that he would be like, well, what would situation?
[00:52:39.160 --> 00:52:40.760] Yeah, didn't these other five companies do it?
[00:52:40.760 --> 00:52:41.960] So, like, clearly, it's doable.
[00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:43.960] Like, are they better than you?
[00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:46.000] Is that yeah, like, are they smarter than you?
[00:52:44.040 --> 00:52:50.560] Or is there something that's so unusual about your circumstances that you can't do that?
[00:52:51.040 --> 00:53:02.320] Like, so then I'm like, Yeah, let's not waste the breath talking about how difficult something is when clearly it's possible and I just need to spend my time thinking about possibilities instead of thinking about woe is me.
[00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:07.760] So, clearly, you decided to sell, you went through that process and you successfully sold.
[00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:14.160] So, like, any high-level or low-level tactics that you have for selling and negotiating?
[00:53:14.160 --> 00:53:16.480] Yeah, I want to know about negotiation specifically.
[00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:24.400] Chang and I just went through like a pretty high-level negotiation with like literally a dude who's bought and sold like 250 companies at some of the biggest companies.
[00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:31.280] And I think I would have gotten burned in that negotiation if I hadn't already been burned, kind of in like an earlier negotiation.
[00:53:31.280 --> 00:53:32.320] Like, I learned some tactics.
[00:53:32.320 --> 00:53:34.000] I'm like, I gotta fucking do this next time.
[00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:35.440] And, like, luckily, I got that result.
[00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:41.360] Like, how do you guys approach negotiation to try to make as much money as possible when you were selling the Milk Road?
[00:53:41.360 --> 00:53:48.160] Ben, I'll let you kind of give him your take on what you're because this was, I think, your first big negotiation.
[00:53:48.160 --> 00:53:52.560] Like, selling your company, I think, is one of the highest stakes negotiations you're going to do, right?
[00:53:52.560 --> 00:53:55.280] You've put years of effort usually into the thing.
[00:53:55.520 --> 00:53:56.960] It's your baby.
[00:53:56.960 --> 00:53:58.640] You don't want it to fall apart.
[00:53:58.640 --> 00:54:02.400] You also want to don't leave a bunch of value on the table by agreeing too easily.
[00:54:02.560 --> 00:54:06.800] You don't get a lot of reps at doing this, so it's hard to get good because you do never done it.
[00:54:06.880 --> 00:54:10.480] If you're lucky once every few years, this was my second time doing it.
[00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:11.200] It was Ben's first.
[00:54:11.200 --> 00:54:14.080] So, Ben, I'll let you go, then I'll give you kind of my take too.
[00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:22.400] Yeah, on the previous point, too, like, I think when we were going back and forth with Suli, like, every three hours, we would be like, in a group chat, we'd be like, oh, we should sell.
[00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:24.960] And then three hours later, we'd be like, no, we're not selling.
[00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:30.200] I remember there was a specific moment where he was just like, what is your visceral reaction to selling?
[00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:30.760] Yes or no?
[00:54:30.920 --> 00:54:34.920] Like, just type yes or no immediately, and that's what you guys should do.
[00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:38.440] And like, I remember that being like our three dots typing.
[00:54:38.440 --> 00:54:40.040] He's like, so what do you want to do?
[00:54:40.040 --> 00:54:40.280] Right?
[00:54:40.280 --> 00:54:41.000] Simple question.
[00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:44.040] So do you want, do you want to sell or can you keep running the company?
[00:54:44.040 --> 00:54:48.360] And then it'd be like, our dot dot dot typing some essay with pros and cons.
[00:54:48.360 --> 00:54:54.680] And he's like, guys, you should just have a visceral reaction to the idea of selling or not selling.
[00:54:54.680 --> 00:54:56.520] And like, start with that.
[00:54:56.520 --> 00:54:57.480] Then we'll go from there.
[00:54:57.480 --> 00:54:59.400] We'll add analysis later.
[00:54:59.400 --> 00:55:04.040] And then I think in terms of like negotiations, like, yeah, it was kind of my first rodeo.
[00:55:04.040 --> 00:55:09.080] I would say, one, you know, at the beginning, we were just kind of fishing around to see what was possible.
[00:55:09.080 --> 00:55:12.920] And then two, I think the main thing we did is we brought more people to the party.
[00:55:13.160 --> 00:55:22.200] So like as soon as we knew someone was interested, like I think first thing we did is we kind of set a rough number or a rough range in our head to where it would be kind of a doable deal.
[00:55:22.200 --> 00:55:29.560] And then we went and we found three or four more interested people to pit them against each other to talk to kind of practice.
[00:55:29.560 --> 00:55:35.080] By the way, I should say, that wasn't the initial instinct that I think most people have, which is, it sounds obvious, right?
[00:55:35.080 --> 00:55:41.400] It sounds like a normal, it sounds like a very obvious point, but your instinct when someone's interested is to go deeper and date them.
[00:55:41.400 --> 00:55:44.520] And instead, what you do is you actually stall them for a second.
[00:55:44.600 --> 00:55:46.840] You're like, oh, they're interested?
[00:55:46.840 --> 00:55:47.240] Great.
[00:55:47.240 --> 00:55:52.200] Fucking ignore them and go get three more interesting people because like this will never work without that.
[00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:55.560] And you will never maximize unless you can go get some more people to the table.
[00:55:55.560 --> 00:55:58.520] Where I think the initial instinct is, oh, they asked us for this.
[00:55:58.520 --> 00:56:00.200] Let's give them that document tomorrow.
[00:56:00.200 --> 00:56:01.960] And then they want to meet again.
[00:56:01.960 --> 00:56:02.600] And let's meet again.
[00:56:02.600 --> 00:56:08.440] Let's get hot and heavy with this party real quick because, oh, they said all the right things and it sounds like it's going to work.
[00:56:08.440 --> 00:56:13.800] And in actuality, it's the time to immediately sprint on other options.
[00:56:14.520 --> 00:56:19.280] What prompted you to do the like counter instinctual thing then in this case?
[00:56:19.600 --> 00:56:20.400] Just experience.
[00:56:20.400 --> 00:56:23.280] Like the same thing happened last year where I was like, oh, okay.
[00:56:23.600 --> 00:56:24.880] I understand now how this works.
[00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:26.160] And fundraising is the same way.
[00:56:26.160 --> 00:56:29.440] Like, you know, I realize that these are auctions.
[00:56:29.440 --> 00:56:32.640] And once you decide that you might sell, you need to run the auction.
[00:56:32.640 --> 00:56:36.240] But to run the auction, you need all the parties interested at the same time.
[00:56:36.240 --> 00:56:38.400] Every time delay costs you money.
[00:56:38.400 --> 00:56:41.120] So that's where I was like, okay, now I know how to play this.
[00:56:41.120 --> 00:56:42.960] And we initially didn't plan for it.
[00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:47.840] Like we were, we reached out to somebody basically being like, hey, can we advertise with you guys?
[00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:50.160] You have a crypto audience on your website.
[00:56:50.160 --> 00:56:52.000] Like they might want to read our newsletter.
[00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:55.440] Could we do like a swap or like we'll pay you a dollar for somebody that subscribes?
[00:56:55.440 --> 00:56:57.760] Like, what, you know, you're interested in something like that?
[00:56:57.760 --> 00:57:00.880] And they were like, no, but we actually really like the Milk Road.
[00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:01.600] We would actually buy it.
[00:57:01.600 --> 00:57:03.760] And then it was like, oh, great.
[00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:04.240] Cool.
[00:57:04.240 --> 00:57:05.120] Let me get back to you.
[00:57:05.280 --> 00:57:07.360] Let me think about if we would want to do that.
[00:57:07.360 --> 00:57:13.280] And then we had our conversations and simultaneously booted up like, well, if we're going to talk to them, who else would be the people that we would talk to?
[00:57:13.280 --> 00:57:16.240] Make the hit list and start those conversations ASAP.
[00:57:16.240 --> 00:57:27.520] Yeah, and I think the other thing that I thought was helpful is like one of the frames, it's really, I thought it was really easy to be like dreaming about how much money we were going to make and be like, oh, now I'm just dreaming and hoping that this happens.
[00:57:27.520 --> 00:57:38.720] And I think one of the frames that Sean really hit a lot was like, look, even if we don't sell here, we're going to learn a lot about the business and what people are interested in, what they're not interested in, where we need to get better.
[00:57:38.720 --> 00:57:41.120] So I think try to, like, we tried to embrace that.
[00:57:41.120 --> 00:57:47.040] Like, even if this deal doesn't happen and we want it to, we're going to get a bunch of data points of things that people are curious about.
[00:57:47.040 --> 00:57:52.480] So, like, if we come back in a year or two, we're going to be way stronger for these reasons.
[00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:54.400] Yeah, that's a really, really important one.
[00:57:54.400 --> 00:57:56.880] Another thing that Sully had taught me, he had done this with his business.
[00:57:56.880 --> 00:57:59.680] He's like, had this beautiful, rosy picture of his business.
[00:57:59.680 --> 00:58:02.520] I was like, oh, of course somebody will want to buy this.
[00:58:02.520 --> 00:58:04.680] And he went and he tried to sell it himself.
[00:57:59.840 --> 00:58:08.440] And immediately the market's like, at first, they're like, wow, great business.
[00:58:08.440 --> 00:58:09.240] We'd love to learn more.
[00:58:09.240 --> 00:58:12.680] And as they learn more, they're like, this and that.
[00:58:12.680 --> 00:58:14.680] And, oh, you only do this.
[00:58:14.680 --> 00:58:15.640] Like, have you thought about this?
[00:58:15.640 --> 00:58:17.720] And it's like, why do they keep talking about those three things?
[00:58:17.720 --> 00:58:20.280] They're missing the big idea, the big, the good parts.
[00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:23.960] It's like, actually, those are what's important to them as a buyer.
[00:58:23.960 --> 00:58:35.240] And if you do that with enough people, you get a real objective opinion about what your business is worth, where it is strong, why they value it at anything, and where it's weak.
[00:58:35.240 --> 00:58:36.760] And then you're like, oh, okay.
[00:58:36.760 --> 00:58:38.600] You know, like, let's take a newsletter, for example.
[00:58:38.600 --> 00:58:47.400] Oh, you value this on, are they valuing this on profits, revenues, or do they look at the subscriber engagement and then assign a value per subscriber?
[00:58:47.720 --> 00:58:48.760] Oh, interesting.
[00:58:48.760 --> 00:58:58.600] Once I know how they think about this and what they're worried about, then I know if I was going to sell this 12 months or 24 months from now, that gives me a blueprint.
[00:58:58.600 --> 00:59:03.720] That gives me a roadmap of how to make my business a lot stronger and more valuable to the objective person.
[00:59:03.720 --> 00:59:06.920] So that's one component to it is learning that that's true.
[00:59:06.920 --> 00:59:19.400] And then the other is this great quote that after we got acquired by my previous company got acquired by Twitch, Emmett, who's the CEO of Twitch and the co-founder of Twitch, he has this great phrase that he learned from Paul Graham from White Common Nature.
[00:59:19.400 --> 00:59:21.320] He goes, he goes, what is it?
[00:59:21.320 --> 00:59:24.840] He goes, birds fly, fish swim, and deals fall through.
[00:59:24.840 --> 00:59:31.320] And so that's the other, like, he, anytime someone would come to the table and be like, super proud, like, oh, we had this great meeting.
[00:59:31.320 --> 00:59:33.240] They're super interested.
[00:59:33.240 --> 00:59:34.920] And then they start forecasting all this stuff.
[00:59:34.920 --> 00:59:36.680] He's like, great.
[00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:38.120] Just know.
[00:59:38.120 --> 00:59:40.120] Birds fly, fish swim, and deals fall through.
[00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:41.320] And then he would say that.
[00:59:41.320 --> 00:59:44.440] And you can see they're like, okay, buzzkill.
[00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:46.960] Sure enough, it gets even better.
[00:59:46.960 --> 00:59:49.200] We get the term sheet or get the contract.
[00:59:44.840 --> 00:59:51.200] Oh, yeah, we're just working on the last few details.
[00:59:51.520 --> 00:59:52.800] Sure enough, deal falls through.
[00:59:52.800 --> 01:00:02.560] And the same thing happened in our acquisition process, which was, first of all, we had to go in with this mentality that most likely, don't start dreaming about all the shit you're going to buy.
[01:00:02.800 --> 01:00:04.720] Most likely, there's no deal to be had.
[01:00:04.720 --> 01:00:08.560] Let's go in with that understanding that that is the likely scenario.
[01:00:08.560 --> 01:00:10.000] And that means two things.
[01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:15.680] Don't check out of running the business and start imagining a world where you don't have to work and don't have to do hard things.
[01:00:15.680 --> 01:00:18.640] And secondly, don't like count on these coming through.
[01:00:18.640 --> 01:00:28.480] That way you're emotionally detached and can actually not be desperate when it comes to the negotiations because a negotiation will go in the favor of whoever has more leverage.
[01:00:28.480 --> 01:00:33.440] And the thing that nukes all logical leverage is your emotions.
[01:00:33.440 --> 01:00:39.440] If your emotions are desperate to buy or desperate to sell, you have lost all your leverage in that one emotional swing.
[01:00:39.440 --> 01:00:41.360] So you have to be emotionally detached.
[01:00:41.360 --> 01:00:52.240] I mean, there's a similarity between the acquisitions of Indie Hackers and Milk Road, it sounds like, and that this wasn't just a project of like, hey, let's go try to get acquired.
[01:00:52.240 --> 01:00:57.680] You said you were reaching out about advertising and then this other avenue opened up.
[01:00:57.680 --> 01:01:11.360] And I wonder if that adds or if that like sort of enhances your, a little bit of your emotional attachment because like the roadmap that was sort of in your head before that was like you probably knew what the next six, 12, 18 months probably were going to look like.
[01:01:11.360 --> 01:01:17.360] Whereas if you're like, you know, this is kind of a fire sale or something, you know, we really want to get out for whatever reason.
[01:01:17.360 --> 01:01:19.920] It seems that you're a little bit more desperate.
[01:01:19.920 --> 01:01:22.080] It's something that you're explicitly looking for.
[01:01:22.080 --> 01:01:25.040] You're going to be way more better to not need to sell.
[01:01:25.040 --> 01:01:25.520] Right.
[01:01:25.520 --> 01:01:26.480] Yeah, always better.
[01:01:26.480 --> 01:01:28.560] And there's really three to three buckets you could be in.
[01:01:28.560 --> 01:01:32.840] You could be Instagram, and it's like, yeah, we're the next big thing, and everybody wants us.
[01:01:33.160 --> 01:01:38.120] You have a very different negotiation style, practice, and outcome.
[01:01:38.120 --> 01:01:44.040] Then there's like where we were with Milk Road, which is we have a good business that we like, we don't have to sell it.
[01:01:44.040 --> 01:01:49.720] But if the deal was right, price was right, partners were right, people were right, then we'll do it.
[01:01:49.720 --> 01:01:51.560] And then there's this shit's not working.
[01:01:51.560 --> 01:01:58.280] What can I do to like, you know, scrap some value out of this for myself, my investors, for my sanity, for whatever else, right?
[01:01:58.280 --> 01:02:01.320] To land the plane because the engine's on fire.
[01:02:01.320 --> 01:02:04.280] And just be honest with yourself, which category are you in?
[01:02:04.280 --> 01:02:07.800] And once you know which category you're in, you have like a slightly different tactic.
[01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:14.040] And I've done the second and third before, and I've never done the first, but I don't think it takes much skill to do the first.
[01:02:14.280 --> 01:02:16.920] When you're the first one, you hire a banker and you run the process.
[01:02:16.920 --> 01:02:18.680] Like it's pretty straightforward.
[01:02:18.680 --> 01:02:19.240] Yeah.
[01:02:19.400 --> 01:02:21.400] You know, you pick the highest number.
[01:02:21.640 --> 01:02:26.760] Yeah, everyone's coming inbound and everyone's outbidding each other because you have the in-demand hot thing.
[01:02:26.760 --> 01:02:37.000] But I wanted to say one more thing about deals following through because I think this is really important, which was we got to a point where we had two offers that side by side were about equal.
[01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:38.440] One was a bit better.
[01:02:38.760 --> 01:02:51.880] And one had been like a lot more thorough and diligenced and like, you know, lots of conversations, lots of questions, lots of sessions, you know, talking through different problems, whatever.
[01:02:51.880 --> 01:02:55.560] And the other one was still a little bit earlier in the conversation.
[01:02:55.560 --> 01:02:59.240] And we had a conversation with, I think, I forgot who it was, Bollaji.
[01:02:59.240 --> 01:03:03.400] I think I called Bollaji and I was like, yo, what would you do with this?
[01:03:03.400 --> 01:03:04.840] And he said something really smart.
[01:03:05.000 --> 01:03:12.520] He goes, I gave him the information about the offers, but I didn't tell him how they were on slightly different timelines.
[01:03:12.520 --> 01:03:14.360] One was more mature than the other.
[01:03:14.360 --> 01:03:17.680] And when I said that at the end, he goes, oh, forget everything I just said.
[01:03:14.840 --> 01:03:21.520] He goes, most deals will fall apart twice before they happen.
[01:03:22.080 --> 01:03:26.480] This other one, you're telling me has almost, you know, you've both walked away twice already.
[01:03:26.480 --> 01:03:30.400] And so this is a real offer, and it's a serious offer and will likely close.
[01:03:30.400 --> 01:03:33.280] This other one is, you're still in your honeymoon phase.
[01:03:33.280 --> 01:03:34.320] You haven't walked away yet.
[01:03:34.320 --> 01:03:37.440] They haven't kicked the tires in the most serious way yet.
[01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:41.440] Like, you need to discount that by maybe 50 to 90%.
[01:03:41.520 --> 01:03:43.600] He's like, so you thought these were close.
[01:03:43.600 --> 01:03:44.720] They're not close.
[01:03:44.720 --> 01:03:48.160] And he turned out to be completely correct in that analysis.
[01:03:48.160 --> 01:03:56.480] And so I would say the two takeaways for somebody who's trying to sell their business is the rule of two: you're going to break up twice before you end up getting married, most likely.
[01:03:56.480 --> 01:04:08.080] I don't know if that happened for you guys, but it's very, very common to sort of like feel like there's no deal happening twice, either because of a legal reason or a finance number or some other holdup that pops up.
[01:04:08.080 --> 01:04:21.040] And then also, if you're in the case where one deal has actually gone through that process and gone through the fire a little bit and gone through the diligence and the other one hasn't, you have to apply a pretty aggressive discount factor to all the terms.
[01:04:21.600 --> 01:04:32.080] We had like the exceptional story where like the day between Stripe saying, hey, we want to buy indie hackers and us like having agreed to numbers and have attorneys like drafting on paperwork was like four days.
[01:04:32.080 --> 01:04:34.320] It was like, wow, boom, wham, bam.
[01:04:34.320 --> 01:04:39.920] And then, and like a later negotiation that I've gone through, it was what you're talking about.
[01:04:39.920 --> 01:04:43.360] Like two, three months of like tense conversations.
[01:04:43.360 --> 01:04:44.640] This might not happen.
[01:04:44.640 --> 01:04:48.960] Prepare for the worst case scenario, uh, before things like concluded.
[01:04:48.960 --> 01:04:52.000] I think that's like, that's why I know I did the first one wrong.
[01:04:52.440 --> 01:04:57.440] Casual casual conversations about, like, oh, we could just walk away, like, just like feeling that heat.
[01:04:58.000 --> 01:04:59.600] What we didn't feel in the original.
[01:04:59.600 --> 01:05:04.280] Yeah, yeah, they should push hard enough where like it might not work, otherwise, you're giving up too easy.
[01:05:04.600 --> 01:05:06.360] Yeah, you haven't found the line yet, right?
[01:05:06.360 --> 01:05:11.560] You haven't found their actual line, and they haven't found yours exactly in that process.
[01:05:11.800 --> 01:05:20.280] The other two things that I thought were interesting is I think we at least I learned in this, like, we would ask for something from the guys we ended up working with, and they would just say no.
[01:05:20.280 --> 01:05:25.080] And I was like, oh, wow, they're pushing back pretty aggressively, and we're still interested.
[01:05:25.080 --> 01:05:28.600] So, you know, there are ways to push back and not turn the other party off.
[01:05:28.600 --> 01:05:35.960] And then, two, I thought it was Destiny when they invited us to dinner and it was the same restaurant that Sean went to when he closed his Twitch deal.
[01:05:35.960 --> 01:05:38.040] I was like, oh, this is happening.
[01:05:38.040 --> 01:05:39.080] Wow, Sean, is that by the way?
[01:05:39.240 --> 01:05:40.040] Does he know that?
[01:05:40.040 --> 01:05:43.400] No, in both cases, it's the other party who said, come, let's meet here.
[01:05:43.400 --> 01:05:45.880] And it just happened to be the same restaurant in San Francisco.
[01:05:45.880 --> 01:05:46.760] I need to start eating up.
[01:05:46.920 --> 01:05:47.400] Both times.
[01:05:47.400 --> 01:05:48.920] It's kind of crazy.
[01:05:48.920 --> 01:05:50.840] Well, listen, guys, we've taken up a lot of your time.
[01:05:51.000 --> 01:05:54.280] Thanks a ton for coming on the show, sharing the story of the Milk Road.
[01:05:54.840 --> 01:05:58.120] Where can people go to find out, you know, what's next for you guys?
[01:05:58.120 --> 01:05:58.920] What are you guys working on?
[01:05:59.160 --> 01:06:00.120] Where should we go?
[01:06:00.120 --> 01:06:03.400] Yeah, so we're brewing something up that I think is going to be pretty fun.
[01:06:03.400 --> 01:06:07.000] And I think right now, the place to do that is to go subscribe to the newsletter.
[01:06:07.000 --> 01:06:10.360] I actually want to publish a lot more about the Milk Road story.
[01:06:10.360 --> 01:06:15.640] So the origins, how we grew it, the how we sold it story.
[01:06:15.640 --> 01:06:16.680] So I'm going to publish that.
[01:06:16.680 --> 01:06:19.720] If you just go to SeanPuri.com.
[01:06:19.720 --> 01:06:23.000] So it's S-H-A-A-N-P-U-R-I.
[01:06:23.080 --> 01:06:24.920] So I don't know if you guys can put that in the description or something.
[01:06:25.160 --> 01:06:27.640] Just go there, put your email in, and that's where we're going to send that.
[01:06:27.640 --> 01:06:31.480] And me and Ben are going to start putting out a bunch more kind of amazing content.
[01:06:31.480 --> 01:06:33.800] Like, I'm basically going to not start another business.
[01:06:33.800 --> 01:06:39.080] I'm just going to put out incredible content for the next, like, I don't know, few years.
[01:06:39.080 --> 01:06:40.120] Ben, what about you?
[01:06:40.120 --> 01:06:41.080] Where are you at?
[01:06:41.080 --> 01:06:44.520] I'm on Sean's list too, but I've been guest posting.
[01:06:44.520 --> 01:06:50.000] I wrote my first one last week and you can follow me on Twitter at BenM Levy.
[01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:51.200] I need to get rid of that M.
[01:06:51.200 --> 01:06:52.720] I need to make my Twitter handles better.
[01:06:52.720 --> 01:06:53.680] But for now, Ben M.
[01:06:53.680 --> 01:06:54.480] Levy.
[01:06:54.720 --> 01:06:55.680] Who's got Ben Levy?
[01:06:55.680 --> 01:06:57.040] Who is this guy?
[01:06:57.040 --> 01:06:57.440] All right.
[01:06:57.440 --> 01:06:58.080] Thanks, guys.
[01:06:58.080 --> 01:06:58.480] Awesome.
[01:06:58.480 --> 01:06:59.680] See ya.
Prompt 6: Key Takeaways
Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.
Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...".
Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive.
IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}
Prompt 7: Segments
Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.
For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion
IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.
Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
"segments": [
{
"segment_title": "Topic Discussion",
"timestamp": "01:15:30",
"key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
"segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
}
]
}
Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.
Prompt 8: Media Mentions
Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:
Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)
DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names
IMPORTANT:
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.
Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
"media_mentions": [
{
"title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
"category": "Book",
"author_artist": "N/A",
"context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
"context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
"timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
}
]
}
If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}
Full Transcript
[00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:08.000] What up?
[00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:09.200] What's going on, man?
[00:00:09.200 --> 00:00:11.600] Bro, I just went to the Louis C.K.
[00:00:11.680 --> 00:00:14.640] show at Madison Square Garden this past weekend.
[00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:15.680] Oh, nice.
[00:00:15.920 --> 00:00:16.480] How was it?
[00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:19.120] It's been a long time since I've been to a comedy show.
[00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:21.040] Have you even been to any comedy shows?
[00:00:21.040 --> 00:00:21.920] I don't know if you've ever talked about it.
[00:00:22.080 --> 00:00:25.200] I've been to lots of comedy shows back in San Francisco, like pre-pandemic.
[00:00:25.200 --> 00:00:27.920] I used to go with Celeste all the time.
[00:00:28.240 --> 00:00:30.240] I wasn't seeing Louis C.K., he's a pariah.
[00:00:30.240 --> 00:00:35.280] He's been, I mean, he like masturbated in front of a bunch of women, and I thought that was a wrap for him.
[00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:36.320] Yeah, exactly.
[00:00:36.320 --> 00:00:38.720] So actually, you know Dan Shively, right?
[00:00:39.120 --> 00:00:39.600] Yeah.
[00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:50.880] My best friend from San Francisco, he was a comedian, and he's the only reason I would have gone to the show, because it's all super controversial, is like Dan just messaged me out of the blue, and he's like, hey, man, I got three tickets to Louis C.K.
[00:00:51.040 --> 00:00:51.920] Like, do you want to go?
[00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:53.360] It's going to be in Madison Square Garden.
[00:00:53.360 --> 00:00:54.960] He was flying from Arizona.
[00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:57.200] So I'm like, all right, man, yeah, absolutely.
[00:00:57.200 --> 00:00:58.880] And I brought my girlfriend along.
[00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:02.240] She didn't tell any of her friends that she was coming.
[00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:02.880] We get there.
[00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:03.760] It's hilarious.
[00:01:03.760 --> 00:01:09.360] It's like, you know, 10 men for every woman that you see like just around in Madison Square Garden.
[00:01:09.360 --> 00:01:15.840] Every single one of the women clearly is just like the wife or the girlfriend of some guy that they're with.
[00:01:16.320 --> 00:01:17.440] There are no groups of women.
[00:01:17.440 --> 00:01:19.040] There are no like gay men, right?
[00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:24.320] It's exactly the kind of crowd that you would expect, like a bunch of like white like 20s and 30s guys.
[00:01:24.320 --> 00:01:31.200] And then even the show itself was hilarious because the first joke that he makes is like, thank you guys all for coming.
[00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:37.040] I know every single person here has someone in their life that doesn't know where they are.
[00:01:37.520 --> 00:01:40.720] You lied to about what you were doing on a Saturday night.
[00:01:40.720 --> 00:01:41.200] I don't know.
[00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:47.520] I'm not going to spoil the set, but it actually was really funny because I was there with Dan.
[00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:52.160] Dan spent five years like really seriously trying to become a comedian.
[00:01:52.160 --> 00:01:57.520] And I don't know if, did I tell you about the time that Dan and I went to an open mic in San Francisco?
[00:01:57.520 --> 00:01:58.320] Yeah, you told me.
[00:01:58.320 --> 00:02:01.320] This is because you did stand up yourself too, I think.
[00:01:59.520 --> 00:02:04.120] And you had never done stand-up before, so you just kind of like did it.
[00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:05.320] And then, did you do good?
[00:02:05.320 --> 00:02:05.800] Did you bomb?
[00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:06.120] I can't remember.
[00:02:06.360 --> 00:02:11.400] It is exactly the exact same thing as, like, it's like, I don't even agree that I did stand-up.
[00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:21.000] It was, he wanted to do stand-up and he's like, hey, I'm going to do open mic, and I need you to be a good friend and come with me so that if I bomb, like, you can bomb before me.
[00:02:21.320 --> 00:02:23.560] And it was the worst experience I've ever had.
[00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:24.040] It was good.
[00:02:24.040 --> 00:02:26.200] It was a fun learning experience.
[00:02:26.200 --> 00:02:28.440] But, dude, I don't know if I told you like the details.
[00:02:28.760 --> 00:02:33.880] We had like a gentleman's agreement where we're like, okay, I'm going to have like a five-minute set.
[00:02:33.880 --> 00:02:35.240] He's going to have a five-minute set.
[00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:38.680] We prepared him, but we like, we're like, we're going to walk in separately.
[00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:45.160] This is like, you know, in San Francisco, just a small bar, like 50 people and a lonely mic on a stage.
[00:02:45.160 --> 00:02:47.960] And we like went in and pretended that we didn't know each other.
[00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:53.000] And the idea was that he would sit in the middle and like laugh at my joke.
[00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:54.040] That's genius.
[00:02:54.040 --> 00:02:55.560] You're the plant in the audience.
[00:02:55.720 --> 00:02:56.040] Exactly.
[00:02:56.360 --> 00:02:58.120] And then I was going to be the plant for him.
[00:02:58.120 --> 00:02:59.240] But I go first.
[00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:02.280] And my, my, like, first off, my set sucks.
[00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:08.840] So every joke that I give, he's laughing hysterically, and the entire room is dead silent.
[00:03:09.320 --> 00:03:12.280] Dude, we got Sean here and Ben.
[00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:14.040] Hey, guys, can you hear us?
[00:03:14.040 --> 00:03:15.160] Yeah, what's up, guys?
[00:03:15.160 --> 00:03:16.520] Can you hear me?
[00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:17.960] Yeah, hey, what's up?
[00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:18.760] What's up?
[00:03:18.760 --> 00:03:21.240] Dude, Sean, I love your setup.
[00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:23.800] You're pro right now.
[00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:27.160] Yeah, we got Pip My Studio'd out.
[00:03:27.160 --> 00:03:27.640] Yeah.
[00:03:27.640 --> 00:03:29.400] Let me tell you a story.
[00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:29.880] Okay.
[00:03:29.880 --> 00:03:33.160] It's probably been like a year since we last spoke.
[00:03:33.160 --> 00:03:34.920] I moved to Seattle.
[00:03:34.920 --> 00:03:36.760] I completely got out of the tech game.
[00:03:36.760 --> 00:03:40.200] Like, half people I know in San Francisco, I don't even talk to anymore.
[00:03:40.200 --> 00:03:43.560] Almost none of my friends in Seattle know anything about tech or startups.
[00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:44.520] They don't even know what I do.
[00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:47.040] Like, I tell them what I do, and they just look at me, like, with their eyes crossed.
[00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:55.040] But the other day, I was sitting next to my girlfriend, and she was checking her email, and I see these, like, two little diamond emojis in her inbox.
[00:03:55.120 --> 00:03:56.560] I'm like, what is that?
[00:03:56.560 --> 00:03:59.360] And it says, it's your fucking newsletter in her inbox.
[00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:01.440] It says Sean Purry, five tweet Tuesday.
[00:04:01.440 --> 00:04:05.760] And I'm like, wait a minute, Sarah, like, how did you, how did you find, like, why are you subscribed to this?
[00:04:05.760 --> 00:04:06.640] And she didn't even remember.
[00:04:06.640 --> 00:04:07.760] She's like, oh, it's just interesting.
[00:04:07.760 --> 00:04:08.160] I like this.
[00:04:08.160 --> 00:04:09.120] I like this guy.
[00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:11.920] So in my mind, I'm like, holy shit, Sean has made it.
[00:04:11.920 --> 00:04:12.800] He's crossed over.
[00:04:13.040 --> 00:04:17.360] Sliding into your girl's DMs with my newsletter.
[00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:18.320] How dare you?
[00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:19.840] You're mainstream now, man.
[00:04:19.840 --> 00:04:20.400] You're huge.
[00:04:20.400 --> 00:04:24.320] Like, you're, like, I feel like you've made it as a content creator.
[00:04:24.320 --> 00:04:26.240] Well, at least I've made it.
[00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:30.320] That's the one thing that I always wanted was the tagline of having made it.
[00:04:30.320 --> 00:04:31.440] You know, it's funny.
[00:04:32.080 --> 00:04:36.480] A long time ago, I was doing my first startup when I was like maybe 21 years old.
[00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:48.560] And we had this terrible idea, but at the time we thought genius idea to somehow we were going to promote our restaurant startup through viral YouTube videos.
[00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:53.120] And really, if we were honest with ourselves, we just thought going viral would be cool.
[00:04:53.280 --> 00:04:56.800] But we just wrapped it as a justification to waste a bunch of time trying to go viral.
[00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:03.760] So one of the things we did was a challenge where we would brush our teeth with wasabi because we were starting a sushi restaurant.
[00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:08.800] And so we did this thing where we brushed our teeth with wasabi and then we're like, you know, spitting it out.
[00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:09.360] It's terrible.
[00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:11.600] It's like, you know, mouth's burning or whatever.
[00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:14.880] Video doesn't go viral, maybe 400 views or something like that.
[00:05:14.880 --> 00:05:16.720] Which, like, honestly, I give myself a little credit for.
[00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:21.120] That was actually a good idea for a channel, just like, you know, punking yourself, basically.
[00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:22.960] I think that's a lot of big channels have been built that way.
[00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:23.680] It's a very Mr.
[00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:25.280] Beast bit right there.
[00:05:25.280 --> 00:05:25.760] Yeah, exactly.
[00:05:25.760 --> 00:05:28.080] Like Nelk Boy's jackass type of thing.
[00:05:28.080 --> 00:05:36.200] And so we, then later, I was at a casino one time, and this guy points at me and he goes, and this is like, you know, more recent.
[00:05:36.280 --> 00:05:38.520] And I think, all right, this guy recognizes me.
[00:05:38.520 --> 00:05:43.320] He's going to say something about the podcast or the newsletter or Milk Road or something like that.
[00:05:43.320 --> 00:05:46.360] He goes, You're the wasabi guy.
[00:05:46.760 --> 00:05:48.920] He goes, I saw you brush your teeth with wasabi.
[00:05:48.920 --> 00:05:52.040] And I was like, wow, that's that's amazing.
[00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:56.200] Like a decade later, this is like that 400 views is still paying off.
[00:05:56.440 --> 00:05:59.720] Like one of the only 400 people on earth who know you from that.
[00:05:59.720 --> 00:06:00.520] And everybody else knows.
[00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:02.280] And recognize me because I look a little different than I do.
[00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:04.680] And you're just like, thank God, that's what I wanted to be known for.
[00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:05.640] Finally.
[00:06:05.640 --> 00:06:06.040] Yeah, exactly.
[00:06:06.280 --> 00:06:06.680] Finally.
[00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:07.240] I knew it.
[00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:09.880] It was like I told you so moment, but there was no one to tell.
[00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:12.600] Dude, your numbers are huge.
[00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:15.320] Like, I think last year you came out on the Indackers podcast.
[00:06:15.320 --> 00:06:21.960] That was like a year and a half ago, and you were doing like a few hundred thousand downloads a month, which at that time was already bigger than any hackers.
[00:06:21.960 --> 00:06:24.280] Like, I'm like, you know, around that number.
[00:06:24.280 --> 00:06:29.800] And then now you're like, I think my first million, you and Sam get like 2 million downloads a month.
[00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:30.440] Is that right?
[00:06:30.440 --> 00:06:31.160] Yeah, something like that.
[00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:33.560] That's a ridiculous amount of traffic.
[00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:34.600] And like listeners.
[00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:36.520] And I'm thinking, do you guys monetize from ads?
[00:06:36.520 --> 00:06:38.120] Do you actually, or does HubSpot?
[00:06:38.280 --> 00:06:41.240] Well, we basically sold all the ad inventory to HubSpot.
[00:06:41.320 --> 00:06:41.720] Oh, shit.
[00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:43.240] So HubSpot runs all the ads.
[00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:43.960] But that's okay.
[00:06:43.960 --> 00:06:44.840] It's still good.
[00:06:44.840 --> 00:06:49.480] Like, that just means we don't have to do ad sales because as it grows, we get paid more.
[00:06:49.880 --> 00:06:55.960] So it's not like basically just saying somebody pre-bought all of the inventory at a set rate.
[00:06:55.960 --> 00:06:57.640] And then if we grow, we get paid more.
[00:06:58.120 --> 00:06:59.880] Are you like getting a cut of the ad revenue?
[00:06:59.880 --> 00:07:03.080] Because I feel like the ad revenue is like, I don't know what podcast ads is like.
[00:07:03.320 --> 00:07:05.080] The more downloads we get, the more we get paid.
[00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:06.920] That's a sweet deal, dude.
[00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:07.640] Yeah.
[00:07:07.960 --> 00:07:11.000] And not only that, but you can do whatever side projects you want.
[00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:15.360] So you and Ben here started a newsletter.
[00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:18.880] This one my girlfriend doesn't subscribe to that I know of called the Milk Road.
[00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:19.440] It's a crypto newsletter.
[00:07:20.320 --> 00:07:22.800] I want to talk about that because you just sold it.
[00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:24.160] And you guys could do anything.
[00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:25.280] Do whatever you want.
[00:07:25.280 --> 00:07:27.680] Why did you start a newsletter about crypto?
[00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:28.800] Like what's the origin story?
[00:07:28.960 --> 00:07:35.520] First, let me introduce Ben because I think people don't know the real main character of a lot of my stuff is Ben, actually.
[00:07:35.520 --> 00:07:37.280] So this is Ben Levy.
[00:07:38.080 --> 00:07:45.600] We met a couple years ago and it was sort of just like he was in a mastermind group that I was putting together where there was like six CEOs or something like that.
[00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:47.840] And his business was actually somewhat boring.
[00:07:47.840 --> 00:07:50.080] It was like, you know, doing well, but it was like kind of a boring business.
[00:07:50.080 --> 00:07:54.240] His updates were always, you know, you could tell he wasn't even that excited about it.
[00:07:54.240 --> 00:08:04.400] But every time somebody else in the group had something, he had like the most on-point strategy or advice or just like cut to the chase kind of like comment.
[00:08:04.400 --> 00:08:06.160] And so I was like, I like this guy, Ben.
[00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:08.160] And I was like, he seems kind of bored with his business.
[00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:11.200] I wonder if I could just pitch him like, yo, let's do something interesting.
[00:08:11.440 --> 00:08:12.720] Come work on my thing.
[00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:14.000] Hey, what if you just stopped?
[00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:17.680] And he was also just like, yeah, actually, let's try something.
[00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:18.800] And so we tried one project.
[00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:19.200] It went well.
[00:08:19.280 --> 00:08:20.080] Then we tried another.
[00:08:20.080 --> 00:08:22.080] And now we've done like four or five things together.
[00:08:22.080 --> 00:08:24.400] The latest of which was the Milk Road.
[00:08:24.400 --> 00:08:25.440] So why do you a newsletter?
[00:08:25.440 --> 00:08:27.120] I mean, like, was it to make money?
[00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:28.960] Was it just because it was fun?
[00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:31.040] Obviously, like, it did very well, but like, what's the point?
[00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:35.440] What's going through your head is like, this is a thing that we can work on together.
[00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:36.320] Two reasons.
[00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:39.360] One was we thought it would work.
[00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:43.680] So a lot of people overestimate how much they love one topic.
[00:08:43.680 --> 00:08:48.160] I think I kind of underestimate that winning, like just succeeding is in itself pretty fun.
[00:08:48.160 --> 00:08:50.480] And so I had a very high conviction that this would work.
[00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:54.880] So I was like, okay, I know I'll have fun simply from the fact that this is going to work.
[00:08:54.880 --> 00:08:56.480] And we can talk about why I thought it was going to work.
[00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:01.320] But the second thing is me and Ben had been increasingly interested in crypto.
[00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:11.160] So I have this like, you know, philosophy, which is sort of like, how do I give myself an excuse to do the thing that I'm already spending my extra hours doing?
[00:09:11.160 --> 00:09:14.920] Meaning, like, if my, if my interest is always, already going in that way, can I productize that?
[00:09:14.920 --> 00:09:16.440] Can I, can I wrap that into a business?
[00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:19.000] And I don't always, but this one I was like, I clearly could.
[00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:22.680] We were like, you know, a newsletter, probably not the biggest business, but it would work.
[00:09:22.680 --> 00:09:24.200] It would be a business.
[00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:32.440] The second thing was like, this will be a great excuse to force ourselves to learn about crypto every day and meet a bunch of other people in the space.
[00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:42.520] And I told Ben at the beginning, I was like, probably some investment we're going to make off of this is going to make us more money than the newsletter will basically just create a surface area for serendipity.
[00:09:42.520 --> 00:09:48.600] Create just like a bunch of space for good luck to happen because I figured crypto was where a lot of luck was going to happen.
[00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:51.080] So that was the mentality going in.
[00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:55.720] And there was just a bunch of like good inspiration for why we thought this might work.
[00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:57.720] Do you think that that's how it turned out?
[00:09:57.720 --> 00:10:00.920] That an investment or two that you've made from your newsletter has made you more money?
[00:10:00.920 --> 00:10:04.120] Or do you think like selling your newsletter and having ads on there made up?
[00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:05.640] Maybe the opposite.
[00:10:05.640 --> 00:10:06.520] Maybe the opposite.
[00:10:06.520 --> 00:10:19.480] We made a bunch of money selling the newsletter, but one of the things we did to promote the newsletter was, Ben, you could describe what I thought was a genius marketing move that actually turned out to not be so genius.
[00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:23.960] Yeah, I mean, the way we, the hook initially was like, hey, we're going to put a million dollars into crypto.
[00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:27.720] And this was like, this is about a year ago when crypto is still in the bull market.
[00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:32.280] We're like, we're going to put a million dollars into crypto and we're going to turn it into 10 this year.
[00:10:32.680 --> 00:10:35.240] I think we put 250K into Luna.
[00:10:35.640 --> 00:10:38.360] Subscribe to the newsletter to see how we do it, right?
[00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:39.720] This was like a, it was like bait.
[00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:42.760] It was like, watch me try to turn one into 10.
[00:10:42.760 --> 00:10:48.000] And that was pretty juicy, but we instead turned a million into like 200,000.
[00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:53.280] Just losing money in public is one of the best marketing hooks, I think.
[00:10:53.280 --> 00:11:07.120] Let me mention something that I think is really brilliant and super underrated in what you just said, which is the process of like selecting a thing to work on, especially if you, let's just be honest, like you're kind of in this position where you kind of have fuck you money.
[00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:08.800] You have a lot of different options.
[00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:13.920] So many people think, well, what am I passionate about already?
[00:11:13.920 --> 00:11:15.440] And I want to go work in that.
[00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:21.200] One of the cool ways to like create passion is just to enter a space and then win in it.
[00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:26.640] And then you end up getting all these other byproducts and like, you know, sort of happy outcomes.
[00:11:26.640 --> 00:11:28.240] You learn a lot about crypto.
[00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:30.080] You make a lot of different connections with people.
[00:11:30.400 --> 00:11:32.720] You're doing what you want and you're doing something that makes money.
[00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:35.200] And like that intersection is where you want to be.
[00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:35.840] Yeah, exactly.
[00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:38.800] I did a kind of an audit, which was like, yo, what do I want to do?
[00:11:38.800 --> 00:11:39.840] I was like, what do I want to do?
[00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:44.240] And at first, I was thinking, I think the way most people think, which is like, what should I do with my life, my career?
[00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:54.080] And I thought about like, you know, some like distant goal, like, oh, I want to make this much money or I want to achieve X and change the world and whatever.
[00:11:54.400 --> 00:11:58.720] And there was something that just wasn't sitting right with me about that way of thinking.
[00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:01.600] And I felt like it was a little bit just too artificial.
[00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:05.200] It was like, this sounds good, but I don't really know.
[00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:07.600] Like, it sounds good when I tell people.
[00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:11.840] And it's almost like I'm performing for them with check out my ambition.
[00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:14.320] And instead, I was like, what do I actually want?
[00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:15.600] What do I actually want?
[00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:19.200] And I was like, let me zoom all the way back into today.
[00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:21.760] Like, what is a great day feel like today?
[00:12:21.760 --> 00:12:25.280] Forget what career, what my long-term plans and ambitions are.
[00:12:25.280 --> 00:12:29.040] Like, tomorrow, what would make that day really enjoyable?
[00:12:29.040 --> 00:12:31.320] Like, what's an average day need to look like?
[00:12:31.640 --> 00:12:35.640] That includes work because I don't, I'm not satisfied if I just like do nothing.
[00:12:35.640 --> 00:12:37.720] Like, that's actually pretty boring for me.
[00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:43.320] So, I'm gonna work, but what type of work is actually fun to do on a day-to-day basis?
[00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:51.880] So that the day itself is the payoff, not I'm gonna grind it out and suffer for some future payoff that, like, you know, may or may not ever come.
[00:12:51.880 --> 00:12:53.880] And I did that for like all of my 20s.
[00:12:53.880 --> 00:13:06.520] You know, in my early 20s, it was like grind, suffer, sleep in the office, future payoff billionaire on the cover, you know, Forbes 30 to 30, whatever the stupid goals I had was, that was like a way I thought about things.
[00:13:06.520 --> 00:13:08.600] And now I'm like, what does a perfect Tuesday look like?
[00:13:08.600 --> 00:13:10.040] I was like, all right, I wake up.
[00:13:10.040 --> 00:13:11.640] I wake up without an alarm clock.
[00:13:11.640 --> 00:13:12.840] That would be nice, right?
[00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:13.800] Cool.
[00:13:14.040 --> 00:13:15.960] Opening part of my calendar is clear.
[00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:19.720] Maybe I'll just check in with kind of like the, I like, I don't want to work totally alone.
[00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:20.520] I don't like that.
[00:13:20.520 --> 00:13:24.280] Let me check in with my one business partner early in the day.
[00:13:24.280 --> 00:13:26.280] We kind of riff on what would make today great.
[00:13:26.680 --> 00:13:30.200] And then I don't want to have a bunch of employees that I'm like managing and one-on-one.
[00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:32.040] I don't want my calendar to look like that.
[00:13:32.040 --> 00:13:33.960] I don't want my calendar to be a bunch of calls.
[00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:36.200] And so I really just zoomed in on what's a great day.
[00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:42.120] And I realized in that process, as I map, I literally mapped out like a schedule of a great average day.
[00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:44.200] And by the way, I think everybody should do this.
[00:13:44.680 --> 00:13:47.080] You should map out a perfect Tuesday for you.
[00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:48.920] And it includes all the little things.
[00:13:48.920 --> 00:13:53.320] Like, you know, I'm like, I realized, like, dude, one of the best parts of every day is like when I shower.
[00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:54.840] I just, I love taking a shower.
[00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:56.680] It's, it's just like feels so good afterwards.
[00:13:56.680 --> 00:13:59.560] I get a bunch of great ideas, really relaxing.
[00:13:59.960 --> 00:14:01.000] I'm not on my phone.
[00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:02.840] Like, you know, there's just like a bunch of benefits to it.
[00:14:02.840 --> 00:14:06.760] I'm like, okay, it sounds silly, but that's actually an important part of my day, right?
[00:14:06.760 --> 00:14:07.480] Walking my dog.
[00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:11.000] There's all these little things I enjoyed that I was like, I need to make sure that happens.
[00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:17.280] And the one most important one was, I like just being curious and then letting, like, following my curiosity.
[00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:20.640] So I thought, well, how can I be professionally curious?
[00:14:20.640 --> 00:14:23.040] Can I get paid to be curious?
[00:14:23.040 --> 00:14:26.000] Is that if that was my career, then what would happen?
[00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:30.480] And so that's where I started thinking, why not do something like a newsletter?
[00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:40.720] Because if I was going to do a newsletter about crypto, which is the thing I was most curious about in those months, then I would get to just like, go read a bunch of stuff, go meet a bunch of cool people, blah, blah, blah.
[00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:47.520] And then cool, at the end of the night, I just package that up into a newsletter that, you know, summarizes the most interesting things I saw or I heard about.
[00:14:47.520 --> 00:14:49.360] That seems like a fun project to work on.
[00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:50.560] And that's how we decided.
[00:14:50.560 --> 00:14:52.640] It's funny because this is like rich guy stuff.
[00:14:52.640 --> 00:14:54.160] And I think it should be everybody stuff.
[00:14:54.160 --> 00:14:59.440] Like I talked to people who are second-time founders or third-time founders, and they're saying the same stuff.
[00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:02.400] Like, what would I like to do on a day-to-day basis?
[00:15:02.400 --> 00:15:03.840] You know, what makes me happy?
[00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:05.120] And I talked to first-time founders.
[00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:07.120] I'm like, what is going to make money?
[00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:08.560] How do I quit my job?
[00:15:08.560 --> 00:15:09.440] Like, I have no idea.
[00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:10.880] It's like, what will work?
[00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:20.480] And I think that, like, I'm interested kind of in the disparity between you, Sean, and you, Ben, because it sounds like Ben, I don't know a ton about your backstory, but like, you're working on a business that wasn't working that well.
[00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:27.120] And here, Sean has like already like sold a company, like, making all this money from his podcast, which is like humongous, investing.
[00:15:27.280 --> 00:15:32.960] And I think when you have this dichotomy between like two different founders who are in two different places, you might want different things.
[00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:40.160] Like, my boss is a billionaire, and he came to me at some point a couple of years ago and was like, hey, Court, let's work on this project together.
[00:15:40.160 --> 00:15:44.080] And on one hand, I was like, oh, this is a cool pet project of his that he really wants to work on.
[00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:50.000] But on the other hand, I'm like, he already has like, you know, $10 billion dollars and I have like some like infinitesimal fraction of that.
[00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:52.000] Like, we have very different goals.
[00:15:52.160 --> 00:15:58.320] Like, Ben, like, what was your, were you on like this perfect Tuesday grind of like, you just want to have a newsletter that's going to be fun for you?
[00:15:58.320 --> 00:17:33.920] Yeah, I definitely am a little more focused on like yeah I want to make a certain amount of money but it's not like my only goal I'm like yeah I want to do it a specific way and I want to have fun and I want to like chase the things that are interesting to me whereas like you know for example my little brother he's like he's like oh stuck in the SMB Twitter world where he's like oh if I can start a housekeeping business tomorrow that makes me 10 grand a month I'll do it I'm like yeah I definitely don't think like that but probably a little bit more than Sean is on the spectrum of like yeah I want to do things that have an outcome and I think Sean is slightly under underplaying that because I think he cares too but I think it's mostly like there's many ways to win and like there's a certain way that we try to win the game how do you win like Channing and I have a newsletter it's not that big you know it's like 125,000 people we make zero dollars from it like we don't know how to win with the newsletter how do you win with the newsletter yeah I mean I think the main things that I think we won with were one brand like which I think you guys do a good job with too you know we tried to stand out from the crowd I think there were and I don't know Sean how you feel about this but there was you know we could have been called crypto daily or eat daily instead we tried to pick something that people really resonated with and we tried to build like a cult and I think we saw that on Twitter a lot people would resonate with the cult and the things that we did so I think that's one I think two we tried to write for ourselves like I think early on we were like oh who who is this for is it for someone that's deeper or like our moms and like the reality was we were just like let's just write what we like and if we like this, we're going to bet that thousands of other people will.
[00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:42.480] And then, three, I think trying to get good at monetizing, which for us is we trained a a kid from the Netherlands to be really good at ad sales.
[00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:46.800] I don't know, Sean, what else from your perspective do you think we got right that helped us win?
[00:17:46.800 --> 00:17:48.400] Well, I think it's kind of two separate questions.
[00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:50.640] One is what makes a newsletter work?
[00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:52.560] What does a newsletter business even look like?
[00:17:52.560 --> 00:17:59.280] And then the second is things that we did specific to Milk Road that actually worked particularly well.
[00:17:59.280 --> 00:18:06.320] And by the way, I think what you did with indie hackers is exactly like that is this, that is a winning formula.
[00:18:06.320 --> 00:18:15.920] And yeah, it's not, you didn't do it through the newsletter, but you did the same idea, which is you picked basically a niche that you understood, that you could speak to of people you like to be around.
[00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:21.920] You built a brand around it with a cool name, and then you started figuring out what content they like on a regular basis.
[00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:27.440] Success stories, horror stories, you know, like tips and tricks, whatever.
[00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:30.080] And you started providing that to them on a consistent basis.
[00:18:30.080 --> 00:18:34.080] And whatever the outcome was, I doubt you could have predicted that at the beginning.
[00:18:34.080 --> 00:18:42.400] So even though I was kind of like a little bit on the hippie, enlightened path of like, what does my perfect day need to look like?
[00:18:43.280 --> 00:18:46.560] Part of working on something was like that this is going to succeed.
[00:18:46.560 --> 00:18:51.360] It's going to be something that people like, I like, and the market likes, meaning it makes money.
[00:18:51.360 --> 00:18:53.120] And like, don't get me wrong, I love money.
[00:18:53.120 --> 00:18:55.120] My podcast is called My First Million for a reason.
[00:18:55.120 --> 00:18:58.400] I really enjoy the sport of making money.
[00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:01.760] But what I realized along the way was I just looked at a pattern.
[00:19:01.760 --> 00:19:09.760] Every time I do something opportunistic, because I'm like, this will make money, my results are worse than the things that I do because I'm like, this would be dope.
[00:19:09.760 --> 00:19:17.040] And this would be dope happens to be a better starting point for me than this would work or this would make money.
[00:19:17.040 --> 00:19:19.200] So, this would be dope is like the first filter.
[00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:21.280] Then, secondly, do I see a path?
[00:19:21.280 --> 00:19:26.000] Do I think that there's a way for this to make a bunch of money or give me some other big benefit that I'm interested in?
[00:19:26.560 --> 00:19:29.600] If so, then like green light, go forward.
[00:19:29.600 --> 00:19:31.880] And business is like a skill set.
[00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:48.680] So, it's like, you know, I can go to my sister's preschool business and help her make more money because there's just a skill of business about how to increase revenue, how to, you know, decrease your costs or increase your margins, how to reinvest that in a way that like grows the business, how to structure your business in a way that's like tax advantage.
[00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:52.120] Like, there's all these like skills that go into a bucket when you're good at business.
[00:19:52.440 --> 00:20:00.840] So, once I realized, oh, you could just apply that to anything, I could take a podcast, which is not typically something people make a lot of money with, and I could find a way to make a lot of money with it.
[00:20:00.840 --> 00:20:08.920] For example, with our podcast, I think the first year we made some tiny amount of ad revenue, 30K, 70K, something like that.
[00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:12.920] But I realized pretty quickly, oh, ads is a really poor way to monetize a podcast.
[00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:19.160] The better way to monetize this podcast is like, look at what this asset is actually creating, and then figure out the best business model for that.
[00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:28.360] So, what I realized was this podcast is attracting a bunch of entrepreneurs who either are already, you know, somewhat successful or, you know, soon to be successful.
[00:20:28.360 --> 00:20:30.360] And they have really high trust, right?
[00:20:30.360 --> 00:20:31.480] It's not the biggest audience.
[00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:31.960] It's not Mr.
[00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:37.240] Beast, like 80 million people watching a video, but it's now, I don't know, like 150,000 people.
[00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:38.360] But back then, it was much smaller.
[00:20:38.360 --> 00:20:41.800] Maybe let's say at that time, 30,000 people listening to an episode.
[00:20:41.800 --> 00:20:46.280] But they're listening to me with my voice for hours a week in their ears.
[00:20:46.280 --> 00:20:49.000] And they learn to trust me and like me and like hear stories.
[00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:52.760] And I'm like, I have this free avenue to build a whole reputation with them.
[00:20:52.760 --> 00:20:54.040] And how did we monetize that?
[00:20:54.040 --> 00:21:01.720] Was we launched a fund and we just got like, you know, only the top 100 or 200 wealthiest people in the audience to give us money.
[00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:03.960] And now we invest $10 million a year into startups.
[00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:06.120] That turned out to be a way better business model.
[00:21:06.360 --> 00:21:13.880] You know, investing $10 million a year into startups using capital raised from the podcast listeners was a way better business model than ads.
[00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:22.720] But it's only because, you know, took something that I thought would just be dope to do and then bet on myself that later I can figure out business model that will work.
[00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:31.200] Is there any, I'm curious, I mean, that's some of the ways that you were able to kind of parlay assets from your podcast into investing.
[00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:35.840] Is there an extent to which you did anything similar with the Milk Road?
[00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:41.680] Like, what's the equivalent crypto play is, oh man, these people trust me and they'll do whatever we say.
[00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:46.000] Like, let's launch our own coin and then get people to invest in that.
[00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:46.800] But you didn't do that.
[00:21:46.800 --> 00:21:49.520] Yeah, no, part of the important part about trust is to not abuse it.
[00:21:49.520 --> 00:21:59.120] So, like, yeah, we wanted to launch a fund if we thought that we could generate like alpha above just saying go buy ETH and go buy Bitcoin if you believe in crypto, right?
[00:21:59.120 --> 00:22:01.840] So it's like, do I believe I can outperform ETH?
[00:22:01.840 --> 00:22:03.760] Ah, no, so I'm not going to do that.
[00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:04.800] Oh, cool.
[00:22:04.800 --> 00:22:05.600] NFTs are hot.
[00:22:05.600 --> 00:22:06.800] Should we launch a Milk Road NFT?
[00:22:06.800 --> 00:22:07.120] I don't know.
[00:22:07.120 --> 00:22:07.680] We got a good brand.
[00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:08.880] We've got a bunch of people here.
[00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:10.320] They'd probably buy it.
[00:22:10.320 --> 00:22:11.120] But then what?
[00:22:11.120 --> 00:22:13.760] Like, I'm not trying to sell you a door to nowhere.
[00:22:13.760 --> 00:22:17.200] So we couldn't figure out what the hell the purpose would be of the NFTs.
[00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:19.520] So we just never did it at that time.
[00:22:19.520 --> 00:22:24.240] And so, you know, part of the reason you can build trust is because you know how to not abuse it.
[00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:25.680] So we didn't abuse it there.
[00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:26.960] So what did we actually do?
[00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:32.160] We were like, well, we have a bunch of crypto readers who are interested in crypto investing, things like that.
[00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:34.800] And there was a bunch of advertisers who wanted to advertise with us.
[00:22:34.800 --> 00:22:37.440] So that paid the bills on a month-to-month basis.
[00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:39.680] So, you know, I know you guys are indie hackers.
[00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:40.400] You guys like numbers.
[00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:46.960] We were doing, I don't know, probably what was it been like between one and two million a year in revenue was kind of like the rate we were at.
[00:22:47.360 --> 00:22:48.800] Now, we were in year one.
[00:22:48.800 --> 00:22:50.320] We sold the business one year in.
[00:22:50.320 --> 00:22:54.320] So, you know, we kind of jettisoned a little early there, but it was working.
[00:22:54.320 --> 00:22:55.680] The business was profitable.
[00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:58.320] It was doing, you know, seven figures of revenue.
[00:22:58.320 --> 00:23:04.520] And more importantly, we realized, oh, okay, there are multiple ways you can parlay this audience in the future.
[00:22:59.840 --> 00:23:14.360] What we decided to do was say, let's use this as an excuse to learn and get smarter about crypto because getting smart in crypto can be a very financially lucrative thing for you.
[00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:21.400] Invest in projects that we're seeing early on, and we're able to get on the cap table because when we go to the projects, we say, hey, can we invest in this?
[00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:25.800] By the way, like, we can mention you in Milk Road and get you in front of a huge number of people.
[00:23:25.800 --> 00:23:30.600] So we provide some distribution, some initial launch users that you can't otherwise get.
[00:23:30.840 --> 00:23:40.200] So we did invest, we did learn, and now we'll see over the next, you know, five years if those startups that we invested in turn out to be big winners or fizzle out.
[00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:42.600] Like, did you share numbers about how many subscribers you had?
[00:23:42.600 --> 00:23:50.280] Like, if you have a newsletter in crypto and it's doing, you know, seven figures in revenue a year, like, how big does that newsletter have to be?
[00:23:50.920 --> 00:24:04.840] We didn't share that, but yeah, I think if you can get a newsletter, I think in general, if you can get a newsletter to, let's call it 100 to 150,000 subscribers, which is, I think, where you guys said you're at.
[00:24:05.800 --> 00:24:06.120] I'm listening.
[00:24:06.200 --> 00:24:07.560] And you have high engagement.
[00:24:07.560 --> 00:24:08.840] Do you have a high open rate?
[00:24:08.840 --> 00:24:09.080] Yeah.
[00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:11.240] We are at mid-30s.
[00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:13.160] 30%, 40%.
[00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:13.480] Great.
[00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:17.320] So we were like 42, 43, something like that percent open rate.
[00:24:17.800 --> 00:24:20.520] Now, the hard part is we were every day.
[00:24:20.600 --> 00:24:21.480] So that creates a lot.
[00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:25.480] We were three times a week, which I thought was a lot, but you guys are daily, which is an insane little.
[00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:29.160] We did five, now six days a week.
[00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:30.440] But three is not bad.
[00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:31.640] I thought you were going to say once a week.
[00:24:31.800 --> 00:24:33.240] So, three is not bad either.
[00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:36.600] My guess, you guys have, you said 120k subscribers?
[00:24:36.600 --> 00:24:37.480] Yeah.
[00:24:38.120 --> 00:24:41.720] So let's say, I don't know, something like 50,000 people open every email.
[00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:43.720] You're sending that three times a week.
[00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:45.280] Ben, what's the math on that?
[00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:46.160] What should they be generating?
[00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:47.600] Let's do this real quick live.
[00:24:47.600 --> 00:24:56.800] So, yeah, I think our back of the envelope is like for every 50k subs, you should be able to make like $1,500 a day in ads.
[00:24:56.800 --> 00:25:02.000] So, I think you should be able to sell each ad for each day for like $3,500.
[00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:03.120] Ooh, that's a lot of money.
[00:25:03.120 --> 00:25:04.400] I like the sound of that.
[00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:05.200] Yeah, right now we're selling it.
[00:25:05.760 --> 00:25:14.480] You guys could be making something like between, let's say, conservatively $5K a week and aggressively $10K a week on your newsletter.
[00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:15.760] I love this free consultant.
[00:25:15.760 --> 00:25:16.320] Advertising.
[00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:18.560] By the way, we got to do this.
[00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:24.800] And by the way, I actually think, and now I have a more updated view of this, which is that you should not sell ads on your newsletter.
[00:25:24.800 --> 00:25:30.800] You should figure out what ad should go in the newsletter and then you should build or own a piece of that company.
[00:25:30.800 --> 00:25:31.280] Wow, yeah.
[00:25:31.280 --> 00:25:32.480] Like Joe Rogan does, right?
[00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:38.480] He's like, I'm going to make my own supplements and then advertise my own shit on my show instead of advertising somebody else's stuff on my show.
[00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:45.680] Yeah, and he does both, but like, and both is probably the actual optimal thing so you can like fill the full inventory.
[00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:57.440] But I would just take the approach of if I'm going to build this audience and I'm going to promote a product, I'm going to also own the majority or at least significant stake in that product.
[00:25:57.920 --> 00:25:59.680] That will hold you true to two things.
[00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:03.040] Number one, you'll only promote stuff you actually like and believe in.
[00:26:03.040 --> 00:26:08.960] Number two, you'll only get you won't just try to grow your sub list to grow a top-line number.
[00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:15.760] You will go for quality of reader and trust built with that reader because they are going to actually be your customer.
[00:26:15.760 --> 00:26:17.360] You're the one putting in the ad slot.
[00:26:17.360 --> 00:26:19.360] So you need them to be not just a bot.
[00:26:19.360 --> 00:26:27.360] You need them to be like a real human being who's got income, who trusts you guys and has needs, and you can fill those needs with like some product.
[00:26:27.360 --> 00:26:28.800] This is all excellent advice.
[00:26:28.800 --> 00:26:29.680] I'm taking notes.
[00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:34.280] So I think the other part that I'm the most curious about is just the growth part.
[00:26:34.280 --> 00:26:38.440] Our newsletter has been kind of stalled around, you know, like 125K people.
[00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:44.600] And you guys grew your newsletter in record time from zero to whatever it was, something that was worth selling.
[00:26:44.600 --> 00:26:46.680] How do you grow a newsletter so fast?
[00:26:46.840 --> 00:26:48.360] Yeah, there's a bunch of different ways.
[00:26:48.360 --> 00:26:56.600] I think the best way is your content is so good, it gets forwarded, or your content is so good when you post it on Twitter or other places.
[00:26:56.600 --> 00:26:58.600] People click, they read, they subscribe.
[00:26:58.600 --> 00:26:59.560] That's the best way.
[00:26:59.560 --> 00:27:02.200] So you basically blog your way, right?
[00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:04.760] You do one-off blogs, and somebody says, that was dope.
[00:27:04.760 --> 00:27:06.200] I'd like some more of that, please.
[00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:09.560] And then you say, this button gives you more of that on a regular basis.
[00:27:09.560 --> 00:27:11.800] That's the best way to grow a newsletter.
[00:27:11.800 --> 00:27:15.880] There are other ways, you know, referrals and, you know, word of mouth.
[00:27:16.120 --> 00:27:19.080] So you build the referral program or an ambassador program, things like that.
[00:27:19.080 --> 00:27:20.200] You could do paid acquisition.
[00:27:20.200 --> 00:27:21.560] So people do paid acquisition.
[00:27:21.560 --> 00:27:23.240] They buy readers.
[00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:29.880] And it sort of goes like, as you would guess, it sort of gets worse and worse the further down that spectrum you go.
[00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:37.080] The further away you go from, I post organically people see it, they read the content, and they say, more, please, right?
[00:27:37.080 --> 00:27:39.240] That's like the gold standard.
[00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:48.200] And the sort of like the worst is, you know, the all-time worst is you, I don't know, buy Indian fake users, right?
[00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:50.040] Like, you know, that's like the worst, right?
[00:27:50.040 --> 00:27:51.080] So how do you grow a newsletter?
[00:27:51.080 --> 00:27:53.240] You can choose where you want to live.
[00:27:53.240 --> 00:27:58.600] I think for you guys, the better case would be, you know, like how much traffic does like an indie hackers get?
[00:27:59.000 --> 00:27:59.960] Do you guys talk about that?
[00:28:00.280 --> 00:28:02.600] Yeah, a couple million visits a month.
[00:28:02.600 --> 00:28:03.000] Great.
[00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:05.400] So why are you not growing the newsletter faster from that?
[00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:05.560] Right?
[00:28:05.560 --> 00:28:10.840] Because it was like you're most popular driving people to sign up for the community, sign up for the website, sign up for the forum, which I think pretty slow.
[00:28:11.080 --> 00:28:14.680] There's another piece that I actually want to get your opinion on.
[00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:22.720] I mean, both of y'all's opinion on, which is like kind of the secret to the way that we run the newsletter as just a couple of people.
[00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:23.840] We don't have a big staff.
[00:28:23.840 --> 00:28:29.600] The way that we run the entire website is we kind of leverage the power of crowdsourcing.
[00:28:29.600 --> 00:28:33.360] So right now we put out three newsletters a week.
[00:28:33.360 --> 00:28:37.840] We have like a really talented New York Times journalist who's our editor.
[00:28:37.840 --> 00:28:44.000] But what she's doing is she's finding like the best content that kind of fits a basic theme for our newsletter.
[00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:45.840] Like you know, we've got three main stories.
[00:28:45.840 --> 00:28:48.080] It's kind of a ripoff in a lot of ways of the hustle.
[00:28:48.080 --> 00:28:49.920] It's got that kind of like magazine style.
[00:28:50.560 --> 00:28:53.440] But we don't directly control the content.
[00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:55.600] We don't like have like a staff of writers.
[00:28:55.600 --> 00:28:57.440] So we're not writing a rich amount.
[00:28:57.520 --> 00:28:57.760] Exactly.
[00:28:57.760 --> 00:29:01.280] So like what Ben said, you're kind of building this cult.
[00:29:01.360 --> 00:29:02.320] You have your own voice.
[00:29:02.320 --> 00:29:04.960] That's something that we don't necessarily have that much control over.
[00:29:05.040 --> 00:29:06.640] We like our opinion on this.
[00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:10.320] Yeah, curating works like my five tweet newsletter, right?
[00:29:10.320 --> 00:29:11.280] So I would do this thing.
[00:29:11.280 --> 00:29:15.040] Five tweet Tuesday was basically like, hey, I'm on Twitter all the time.
[00:29:15.040 --> 00:29:16.800] I see interesting stuff.
[00:29:16.800 --> 00:29:17.840] Ben sees interesting stuff.
[00:29:17.840 --> 00:29:19.120] This is Ben's superpower, by the way.
[00:29:19.120 --> 00:29:20.400] He's a great curator.
[00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:25.280] And we just show you, like, yo, if you didn't want to waste your time on social media this week, just read this email.
[00:29:25.280 --> 00:29:26.800] It's five of the most interesting tweets.
[00:29:26.800 --> 00:29:33.760] One will make you laugh, two will make you think, and one you'll disagree with, but it'll force you to kind of like articulate your own thoughts in your head.
[00:29:33.760 --> 00:29:36.560] And that's kind of the core format.
[00:29:36.560 --> 00:29:41.200] And so that's a fully curated thing, but it has a little bit of commentary from me in it.
[00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:43.040] So it's like, here's the tweet.
[00:29:43.040 --> 00:29:43.680] Here's my take.
[00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:44.320] Here's the tweet.
[00:29:44.320 --> 00:29:45.280] Here's my take.
[00:29:45.520 --> 00:29:46.480] And people love that email.
[00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:47.280] That's a good email.
[00:29:47.280 --> 00:29:52.240] But it doesn't build the same level of trust or value as like, you know, original content does.
[00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:54.960] So it's, you know, depends on the goal.
[00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:57.520] I started that one because I was like, look, I got this email list.
[00:29:57.520 --> 00:29:58.640] I just don't want it to go stale.
[00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:01.880] If I don't send anything for eight months, this is worthless.
[00:30:01.880 --> 00:30:04.760] If I have to write original content, I don't have the time right now.
[00:29:59.840 --> 00:30:07.160] I'm running two businesses, so I can't do that.
[00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:09.960] So I needed something in the middle, something to just keep the list warm.
[00:30:09.960 --> 00:30:11.400] And that was my solution.
[00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:16.600] It's kind of like Tem Ferris' like Five Bullet Friday or whatever, where it's like, okay, I've got this huge audience, my podcast.
[00:30:16.600 --> 00:30:17.240] People love me.
[00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:22.040] I might as well have like some very easy to curate newsletter because I can monetize.
[00:30:22.040 --> 00:30:22.920] Exactly.
[00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:26.840] The other thing you do, Sean, like I think that's cool is like you've got your podcast, right?
[00:30:26.840 --> 00:30:30.520] What you talked about, which is huge and like feeds into this.
[00:30:30.520 --> 00:30:34.600] How much work does it take you to do your podcast?
[00:30:34.600 --> 00:30:37.080] Because we are trying to get better at podcasting.
[00:30:37.080 --> 00:30:40.840] Like this is like, I don't know, like our sixth or seventh episode where Channing is joining me.
[00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:45.160] Channing's like at my college library right now or something.
[00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:46.360] Where are you, Channing?
[00:30:46.600 --> 00:30:47.400] Did you use it on?
[00:30:47.800 --> 00:30:48.600] I am Joe.
[00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:50.680] I'm just a nerd.
[00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:52.600] Like, this is Instagram.
[00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:53.400] This is real.
[00:30:54.040 --> 00:30:55.000] I read this article.
[00:30:55.000 --> 00:31:04.040] My girlfriend sent this to me to poke fun at me about how a lot of millionaires and startup people are spending whatever.
[00:31:04.040 --> 00:31:11.000] They'll spend like hundreds of thousands of dollars for someone to kind of like bust in a podcast background library with like color coding background.
[00:31:12.120 --> 00:31:13.160] But I'm just a nerd.
[00:31:13.160 --> 00:31:15.880] Like this is just like these are the books I've been toting around for.
[00:31:16.760 --> 00:31:18.440] How many of those books have you read?
[00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:20.040] Give me a percentage of books.
[00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:21.000] Channing reads constantly.
[00:31:21.880 --> 00:31:23.560] I'm on about 50%.
[00:31:23.560 --> 00:31:26.920] I just got three books this, like literally this morning.
[00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:28.280] I read a book a week.
[00:31:28.280 --> 00:31:31.080] Like it's just like a constant, a constant thing.
[00:31:31.080 --> 00:31:32.040] That's all Channing does.
[00:31:32.040 --> 00:31:32.760] He just reads.
[00:31:32.760 --> 00:31:35.240] Every time I talk to this guy, he's telling me about a book he's read.
[00:31:35.240 --> 00:31:35.480] All right.
[00:31:35.480 --> 00:31:41.400] So I don't know if you guys can see this kind of off-frame, maybe, but I have these four books on my bookshelf here.
[00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:42.120] Four.
[00:31:43.400 --> 00:31:44.960] How many of those books have you read, Sean?
[00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:47.120] This book is called Tango Lessons.
[00:31:47.360 --> 00:31:48.240] I don't even know if there's paid.
[00:31:48.320 --> 00:31:49.280] Oh, there are words inside of it.
[00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:51.440] Why is that a fucking not a YouTube video?
[00:31:51.520 --> 00:31:52.400] Let's be honest.
[00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:57.920] You could go on Etsy and you could buy, it's called cream-colored books.
[00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:01.600] And so you just buy these neutral white-looking books that look good.
[00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:03.360] They look good on your shelf.
[00:32:03.360 --> 00:32:05.680] And so that's literally my book.
[00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:07.520] So you did actually read my phone.
[00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:12.080] You did the books in the background thing, and you only got four, and one of them is on Tango.
[00:32:12.080 --> 00:32:14.320] Are you trying to learn how to Tango, or is that just like...
[00:32:14.320 --> 00:32:16.000] No, I just read that for the first time.
[00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:16.960] I didn't even know what was on there.
[00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:18.560] I just knew it was a cream-colored book.
[00:32:19.040 --> 00:32:19.680] I didn't decide.
[00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:23.120] The designer was like, you need books to look sophisticated.
[00:32:23.120 --> 00:32:25.360] And so she sent me a link and I bought it.
[00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:27.920] So that's, you know, that's how I roll.
[00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:30.800] But, okay, so what you're saying, podcasting.
[00:32:31.040 --> 00:32:32.400] What's your question about podcasting?
[00:32:33.760 --> 00:32:34.800] We were talking last year.
[00:32:34.800 --> 00:32:38.800] You're talking about how the all-in podcast is billionaires talking about billionaire shit.
[00:32:38.800 --> 00:32:42.560] You're talking about how your show, My First Million, is like Millionaires Talking About Millionaire shit.
[00:32:42.560 --> 00:32:44.000] And then Milk Rhodes is kind of the same.
[00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:46.160] You know, it's like Eddie Become a Millionaire with crypto.
[00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:51.680] And then Andy Hackers is kind of like thousandaires talking about thousandaire shit.
[00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:53.520] And then we interview people making like 10 grand a month.
[00:32:53.520 --> 00:32:55.600] And like, that's life-changing.
[00:32:55.600 --> 00:32:57.840] And on your podcast, you also interviewed Peter Levels.
[00:32:57.840 --> 00:33:00.400] I think Sam brought him on your show, and you're like, who's this guy?
[00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:01.840] And like, why do we want to talk to him?
[00:33:01.840 --> 00:33:02.480] You know?
[00:33:02.800 --> 00:33:07.520] No, no, I'm a fan of Peter, but he did come on and he had one of the highest rating episodes.
[00:33:07.600 --> 00:33:08.000] He's cool, dude.
[00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:08.560] He's got a huge.
[00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:09.840] He brings an audience.
[00:33:09.840 --> 00:33:10.320] People love it.
[00:33:10.560 --> 00:33:14.080] A lot of people want to know how to just be one guy and just make it.
[00:33:14.080 --> 00:33:22.600] But I remember Sam talking about why would you spend 60 hours a week trying to make you know $100,000 if you could spend 60 hours a week trying to make $100 million?
[00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:22.760] Right?
[00:33:22.800 --> 00:33:24.240] It's kind of like a very different ethos.
[00:33:24.800 --> 00:33:26.720] What do you two think about that?
[00:33:27.360 --> 00:33:30.920] I had the same bit of advice given to me.
[00:33:29.840 --> 00:33:31.800] My dad told me that.
[00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:41.240] He goes, You know, this is when I was doing that restaurant idea, which is like the very first idea I had, very first business idea I ever had was to create the Chipotle for sushi.
[00:33:41.240 --> 00:33:44.760] So it's a stupid idea, but I started winning business planning competition.
[00:33:44.760 --> 00:33:46.840] So I thought it was the best idea ever.
[00:33:46.840 --> 00:33:54.920] Now, my dad was like, Restaurants, well, you know, son, not only do they always fail, even when they succeed, they don't do very well.
[00:33:55.400 --> 00:33:56.360] I was like, what?
[00:33:56.360 --> 00:33:57.240] No, it's going to be huge.
[00:33:57.240 --> 00:33:58.120] It's going to be a chain.
[00:33:58.120 --> 00:33:59.320] And he's like, okay, maybe.
[00:33:59.320 --> 00:34:05.000] But he's like, you know, you're doing this deal right now, or like you're trying to put this one thing together.
[00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:07.880] And if it works, it'll make $150,000.
[00:34:08.040 --> 00:34:09.000] I'm doing this deal.
[00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:12.200] He worked in the BP, so he worked in the energy industry.
[00:34:12.200 --> 00:34:16.920] And he's like, you know, there is no meeting for a deal that has hundreds of thousands of dollars.
[00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:21.320] Like, there has to be an extra zero or two for there to even be a deal.
[00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:24.120] Like, they don't deal in numbers less than that.
[00:34:24.120 --> 00:34:31.320] And he's like, a small project and a big project, if you're working on them, will both take up all your time.
[00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:33.080] And I actually think that's very true.
[00:34:33.080 --> 00:34:37.800] I think there's this big misconception about passive income.
[00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:41.960] Very rarely do you find something that's truly like passive income.
[00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:56.840] And most of the time, if you want something to succeed, you're going to put in, you know, pretty solid effort, pretty solid hours, until you build up enough expertise that you can do something in three hours that takes somebody else 30 hours to do, which does happen.
[00:34:56.840 --> 00:34:59.240] And now has happened for me in a couple of cases.
[00:34:59.240 --> 00:35:06.880] But at the beginning, you know, before when you're pre-rich, when you're pre-figured shit out, you should just plan that.
[00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:10.200] Whatever you're doing is going to take up, you know, all your work time.
[00:35:10.200 --> 00:35:14.280] And so you just are deciding, am I going to spend all that work time on something small or something big?
[00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:15.440] It's up to you.
[00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:18.640] The odds of success are not that dramatically different.
[00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:26.800] I would say maybe when you get to the category of I'm trying to build a billion-dollar company, the odds are somewhat different.
[00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:34.160] But to build something that's going to make millions of dollars versus hundreds of thousands of dollars or tens of thousands of dollars, they're kind of the same likelihood of success.
[00:35:34.160 --> 00:35:37.200] It's just, you know, project selection.
[00:35:37.200 --> 00:35:38.880] Okay, so let's get you on the record here.
[00:35:39.200 --> 00:35:44.480] Would you say officially right now that you think that indie hackers is small boy stuff?
[00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:51.760] I think the way you guys are doing it is officially certified grade A small boy stuff.
[00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:52.800] Yes.
[00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:54.320] Let me tell you why.
[00:35:54.640 --> 00:35:56.960] You got bought by Stripe.
[00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:57.520] Amazing.
[00:35:57.520 --> 00:35:59.600] That's big boy stuff.
[00:35:59.920 --> 00:36:01.120] It's been six.
[00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:02.160] Hold on.
[00:36:02.160 --> 00:36:03.600] Six years.
[00:36:03.600 --> 00:36:03.920] Six years.
[00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:06.640] This is the phone that was out when you got bought.
[00:36:07.120 --> 00:36:07.920] That's not even a phone.
[00:36:08.080 --> 00:36:08.880] That's like calculating.
[00:36:09.200 --> 00:36:10.000] This is a Blackberry.
[00:36:10.240 --> 00:36:10.720] What is that?
[00:36:12.560 --> 00:36:13.680] This is how I texted you.
[00:36:13.680 --> 00:36:15.360] Congratulations when you got bought.
[00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:15.920] How are you?
[00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:19.360] You're flipping up the top of the phone to access the buttons.
[00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:26.560] So vesting out your full term and more, I believe, is small boy stuff.
[00:36:26.560 --> 00:36:30.960] If you want to be an entrepreneur, because basically what you did, I don't know if you want to be an entrepreneur.
[00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:31.840] Maybe you don't.
[00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:34.320] If you don't, then it's not small boy stuff.
[00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:39.840] If you said, no, I want to have like super chill, I want to read five books a week and chill, like fantastic.
[00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:42.240] Then you're doing, you're living life on your terms.
[00:36:42.240 --> 00:36:43.520] That is not small boy stuff.
[00:36:43.520 --> 00:36:44.800] That is big boy stuff.
[00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:52.720] But if you wanted to be an indie hacker or you wanted to be an entrepreneur, then not doing entrepreneurship for six years is probably not a good idea, right?
[00:36:52.720 --> 00:36:57.120] Like, you know, you don't just take off six years of your prime to not do it.
[00:36:57.120 --> 00:36:58.080] So let's ask that question.
[00:36:58.080 --> 00:36:58.400] Yeah.
[00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:03.720] Do you want to be an entrepreneur or do you want to have a really dope, fun lifestyle doing something else?
[00:36:59.520 --> 00:37:04.200] What is the goal?
[00:37:05.560 --> 00:37:06.200] My role model.
[00:37:06.200 --> 00:37:07.960] Peter Levels is my role model.
[00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:10.200] He's one of the reasons that I started Indie Hackers.
[00:37:10.200 --> 00:37:13.080] And he's an entrepreneur, but like more than anything, he's just a creator.
[00:37:13.080 --> 00:37:14.040] He tweeted something.
[00:37:14.040 --> 00:37:16.840] Like people were always saying everything I do turns to gold.
[00:37:16.840 --> 00:37:18.120] I've made millions of dollars.
[00:37:18.120 --> 00:37:20.440] Like here's a list of 96 projects I've made.
[00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:22.120] Only four have made any money, right?
[00:37:22.120 --> 00:37:24.520] He's just building shit because he likes to build shit.
[00:37:24.520 --> 00:37:26.040] I'm kind of the same way, right?
[00:37:26.040 --> 00:37:28.600] Like I left San Francisco a couple years ago.
[00:37:28.600 --> 00:37:33.000] Sean, you and Sam talk about like this chat group that you're a part of where it's everyone is like trying to blow up.
[00:37:33.080 --> 00:37:33.480] You were in it.
[00:37:33.560 --> 00:37:34.120] I was in it.
[00:37:34.120 --> 00:37:34.760] Yeah, I was in it.
[00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:37.560] I was like, you know, I'm not as excited about this shit as these guys are.
[00:37:37.560 --> 00:37:40.840] Like you're all trying to blow your Twitter accounts up to like 100,000 people.
[00:37:40.840 --> 00:37:42.280] I'm like, I just don't care.
[00:37:42.760 --> 00:37:43.560] Didn't you get kicked out?
[00:37:43.560 --> 00:37:48.120] Because it sounds like you're saying you quit, but it sounds like I think I heard inactive.
[00:37:48.200 --> 00:37:49.560] He just he just wouldn't he didn't talk.
[00:37:49.560 --> 00:37:49.960] I didn't talk.
[00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:50.680] I learned something.
[00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:51.960] I learned it.
[00:37:52.040 --> 00:37:52.600] Not for me.
[00:37:52.600 --> 00:37:53.480] Not for me, right?
[00:37:53.480 --> 00:38:00.360] Like, I think there's a bug of just like making more and more and more and more money that hits a lot of people and it's super motivational, right?
[00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:02.920] But for me, it's like, I actually just like building stuff.
[00:38:02.920 --> 00:38:03.160] Okay.
[00:38:03.160 --> 00:38:03.400] Okay.
[00:38:03.400 --> 00:38:04.360] So you like building stuff.
[00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:05.000] You want to be a creator.
[00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:05.240] Exactly.
[00:38:05.480 --> 00:38:07.960] Now, okay, let's go on those terms.
[00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:12.440] Last six years, how many things have you built and how many has Peter Levels built?
[00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:18.760] If he's the MJ of the indie hacker, right?
[00:38:18.760 --> 00:38:21.160] He's the MJ of indie hackers, let's say.
[00:38:21.720 --> 00:38:24.280] Are you Kobe or are you GRA?
[00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:27.320] I don't know if you're an NBA fan, but like, you know, where are you?
[00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:28.520] I'm like, how much stuff have you built?
[00:38:28.680 --> 00:38:33.240] I'm like that kid who was at my high school who was like, you know, second string on the basketball team, not really.
[00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:34.760] Wearing all the gear.
[00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:36.120] Bought all the gear.
[00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:37.560] Got the Jordans.
[00:38:37.560 --> 00:38:37.880] Right.
[00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:40.360] I'm practicing my jumps, but I'm like, I'm not getting playtime.
[00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:42.280] But I think for me, it's like we built some cool shit.
[00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:44.680] Like, we have this huge directory of products at Indie Hackers.
[00:38:44.680 --> 00:38:46.160] We have this cool community.
[00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:47.680] Like, I just want to be a builder.
[00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:49.280] Channing, how about you?
[00:38:49.520 --> 00:38:50.480] Are you similarly minded?
[00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:51.600] Is that your goal too?
[00:38:51.600 --> 00:38:54.080] I mean, so we kind of have different trajectories.
[00:38:54.560 --> 00:39:00.800] Courtland was doing startups and kind of had an aspiration to do startups, you know, forever.
[00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:04.240] I mean, he was lugging around like a Bill Gates book when he was 13 years old.
[00:39:04.240 --> 00:39:05.040] He went to MIT.
[00:39:05.120 --> 00:39:07.520] He almost quit MIT to do his startups.
[00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:15.440] And I was like the old school entrepreneur in a way that you don't make money, which is like, I just wanted to be a novelist.
[00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:16.720] Look at the books behind me, right?
[00:39:17.520 --> 00:39:18.720] You can kind of put this together.
[00:39:18.720 --> 00:39:25.120] And the way that I ended up going in this direction is, you know, I wrote a novel.
[00:39:25.120 --> 00:39:26.240] I got a literary agent.
[00:39:26.240 --> 00:39:39.040] My agent was like, called me up on the phone and he's like, hey, I just want to let you know, you know, of the five best-selling authors that I represent, the like top best-selling one, he like works full-time as a firefighter.
[00:39:39.200 --> 00:39:45.600] The second full-time, like, yeah, it's like, he's like, he's like, just to be clear here, like, these are the winners.
[00:39:46.160 --> 00:39:51.440] If you achieve all of your dreams, like, you're going to write like, you know, five hours on weekends.
[00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:56.480] So at the exact same time, Cortland's like, we lived in San Francisco together.
[00:39:56.480 --> 00:40:00.560] I was like in this shitty sales job that I was like, you know, this is going to be a dead end.
[00:40:00.560 --> 00:40:03.680] I just got a call from my agent that's like, you're going to be doing that forever.
[00:40:03.680 --> 00:40:12.800] And Cortland's like, well, if you want to write and if you want to do that kind of a thing, like if that's your, your version of being like kind of a billionaire, why don't you teach yourself how to code?
[00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:14.320] And so I became a developer.
[00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:16.240] I got tons of free time.
[00:40:16.240 --> 00:40:20.800] And then Cortland started to hit home runs with the beginning of Indie Hackers.
[00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:24.160] And he's like, hey, can you help me with, you know, can you help me edit these interviews?
[00:40:24.160 --> 00:40:25.440] Can you help me like reach out?
[00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:26.720] Can you help me build the forum?
[00:40:26.720 --> 00:40:28.320] And it was like taking off.
[00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:29.440] And now you're a millionaire.
[00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:30.920] You can write as much as you want.
[00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:33.880] I would say Channing is someone who's living his perfect Tuesday every day.
[00:40:33.880 --> 00:40:44.920] He's got a very strict regimen, he knows exactly what he wants to do, and half of our conversations are about books he's read, and the other half is about how much he loves his life because he's doing exactly what he wants to do every single day.
[00:40:45.560 --> 00:40:49.400] You're like, Bro, this phone call telling me how much you love your life, I can't get this every day.
[00:40:50.440 --> 00:40:51.240] A little jealous.
[00:40:51.240 --> 00:40:52.520] No, that actually has happened.
[00:40:52.520 --> 00:40:59.960] That you know, another thing that I think is different in my life that I've tried to build, I don't know if this counts, but it's like a circle of like real friends.
[00:40:59.960 --> 00:41:03.640] So, Channing, you and I were talking about this the other day, like real friends versus deal friends, right?
[00:41:03.640 --> 00:41:12.120] I had like all my deal friends when I lived in San Francisco, people that I would talk to, we would chum around with, we would work together, you know, we would do deals together.
[00:41:12.120 --> 00:41:15.640] And then I left SF and I realized, like, I don't talk to any of these people anymore.
[00:41:15.640 --> 00:41:17.000] Was that a real friendship?
[00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:24.440] And everyone says that everyone loves on podcasts and saying, I'm friends with so-and-so, we're friends, but it's like we talk once a year about business.
[00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:29.320] It's like that really a friendship, or do you just get like social status from saying that you're friends with that person?
[00:41:29.320 --> 00:41:37.480] Whereas in Seattle, like no one I know knows anything about startups, and we hang out and talk about totally unrelated shit and like about our personal lives.
[00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:43.560] And so, I think for me, I've been focusing a lot more on like making real friends, which I didn't have when I was in San Francisco.
[00:41:43.560 --> 00:41:47.560] Yeah, and very underrated too, because it's really hard to make friends as an adult, I feel.
[00:41:47.560 --> 00:42:01.000] Um, like friends was kind of like spoon-fed to me, like when I'm in school or in college, or especially now with like remote work, it's like, man, even those, like, kind of like the deal, even your deal friends are kind of gone if you, if you don't go to an office every day for a lot of people, right?
[00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:04.680] Like, because they're not doing deals, they're just, those are co-workers and they kind of hang out together.
[00:42:04.680 --> 00:42:08.000] And these aren't the people I would pick to be my friend, but I see them every day.
[00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:09.320] So, so you know, why not?
[00:42:09.320 --> 00:42:11.240] And so, I think it's great that you actually have that.
[00:42:11.240 --> 00:42:14.760] And isn't that like one of the most commonly linked things to like happiness?
[00:42:15.120 --> 00:42:15.280] Yeah.
[00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:19.200] Basically, having a really strong community of family and friends.
[00:42:19.600 --> 00:42:21.200] I did some soul searching last year, man.
[00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:23.200] And that was like the answer to everything.
[00:42:23.200 --> 00:42:26.080] Your community and like a sense of purpose.
[00:42:26.080 --> 00:42:26.960] Those two things.
[00:42:26.960 --> 00:42:29.200] If you got those, you're on the track to be happy.
[00:42:29.200 --> 00:42:31.520] And if you don't, you're probably screwed.
[00:42:31.520 --> 00:42:39.600] But also, like, what you said was another common thing that I heard in the tech industry that it's, it's hard to make friends as an adult.
[00:42:39.600 --> 00:42:44.080] And then when I came to Seattle, I started meeting people who'd sort of lived in Washington their entire life.
[00:42:44.080 --> 00:42:45.200] And I would tell them the same thing.
[00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:47.360] You know, it's so hard to make friends as an adult.
[00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:49.680] And everyone just looked at me like I had two heads.
[00:42:49.680 --> 00:42:52.160] Like, why is it hard to make friends?
[00:42:52.160 --> 00:42:53.840] They're like, I have a ton of friends.
[00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:55.680] I've lived here my whole life.
[00:42:55.680 --> 00:42:56.800] I've got hundreds of friends.
[00:42:56.800 --> 00:42:57.760] I've never left.
[00:42:58.640 --> 00:42:59.760] And I thought about that.
[00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:01.600] And ultimately, it's kind of easy, right?
[00:43:01.600 --> 00:43:02.880] Like, I've been doing it now, too.
[00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:09.200] You just, like, when you meet somebody, instead of only hanging out with them one-on-one, you introduce them to all of your other friends.
[00:43:09.200 --> 00:43:14.560] And then more importantly, when people invite you to stuff, you just say yes and go out.
[00:43:14.720 --> 00:43:16.240] So you just go, right?
[00:43:16.240 --> 00:43:17.680] It's actually not that hard.
[00:43:17.680 --> 00:43:19.360] Yeah, Tony Robbins has this thing he says.
[00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:21.520] He's like, people live this box life.
[00:43:21.520 --> 00:43:24.640] He's like, you sit in your house, which is a box, and then you stare.
[00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:27.440] He's like, you go to work, you get in your box that has wheels.
[00:43:27.680 --> 00:43:30.640] You drive to your box building and you get in the box there.
[00:43:30.640 --> 00:43:31.520] You sit in your cubicle.
[00:43:31.520 --> 00:43:32.560] That's another box.
[00:43:32.560 --> 00:43:33.680] And then you type on your box.
[00:43:33.680 --> 00:43:34.800] And then you get back.
[00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:35.920] You eat your lunch box.
[00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:38.320] And then you go back and you get back in your box car.
[00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:39.280] You go back home to your box.
[00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:42.400] You watch the box on your TV and then you go to sleep, right?
[00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:48.160] Like, you know, when you're hungry, you go to the box in your fridge, and you just grab the first thing you see.
[00:43:48.160 --> 00:43:49.360] And then that's it.
[00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:51.680] And he's like, that's not right.
[00:43:51.680 --> 00:43:53.600] Don't live this box life.
[00:43:53.600 --> 00:43:54.480] Like, you, you're so.
[00:43:54.720 --> 00:44:01.880] You should have some like variety and spice and twists and turns and some flexibility with the way you live.
[00:43:59.920 --> 00:44:05.320] And I think it's worth kind of like looking at, like, zooming out.
[00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:09.480] You know, like when you have to get up, take off in an airplane and everything starts to look like ants.
[00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:15.480] It's like you kind of just like third person look at yourself and zoom out and be like, damn, I am living kind of a box life.
[00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:17.560] And like, maybe I'll like, I started doing this.
[00:44:17.560 --> 00:44:18.920] I started biking to work.
[00:44:18.920 --> 00:44:20.920] And it took me twice as long to get to work.
[00:44:20.920 --> 00:44:22.600] And I was having three times more fun.
[00:44:22.600 --> 00:44:28.040] I was like, this is way better than what I was doing before, where I would take this efficient Uber to work.
[00:44:28.040 --> 00:44:33.560] And instead, I started either walking, which took me 45 minutes to walk to work, or I would bike to work.
[00:44:33.560 --> 00:44:39.880] And it was like, even if it was cold and bitter and terrible, it was still better than the box life.
[00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:43.080] And I think that there's like, there's some wisdom in that.
[00:44:43.080 --> 00:44:50.920] I can relate to this a lot because I feel that the easiest way to get trapped in the box is to really love the box.
[00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:52.600] I feel like you're in the box.
[00:44:54.280 --> 00:44:54.840] I've heard you.
[00:44:55.160 --> 00:44:56.040] You're comfortable.
[00:44:56.040 --> 00:44:56.440] Yeah.
[00:44:56.440 --> 00:44:59.800] Well, so it can be kind of a comfort trap.
[00:44:59.800 --> 00:45:01.000] And I mean, I don't know.
[00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:09.640] I just think back over 10 years of my life and it's like finding comfort zones and then occasionally like getting riveted out of those comfort zones.
[00:45:09.640 --> 00:45:20.680] Those were all the A, the like cool stories in hindsight, but there were also all of these crazy learning opportunities that gave me tools that I could then use to like break through in other areas.
[00:45:20.680 --> 00:45:24.920] Just to be specific, for example, I had to get a job when I was in San Francisco.
[00:45:25.240 --> 00:45:31.400] I'm not exactly an introvert, but like I ended up getting this sales job and I was like definitely not looking for that.
[00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:39.240] Like it was, you know, sort of hardcore copier sales, walking into buildings, not fun work, but then I like I had to figure that out.
[00:45:39.240 --> 00:45:43.800] And then the skills that I learned from that in weird ways contributed to writing.
[00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:46.160] Like I was, I had a higher pain tolerance, right?
[00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:52.320] It contributed to just my personal, like my self-concept of like, no, I can fucking learn anything, et cetera.
[00:45:52.320 --> 00:46:07.040] And a really interesting insight into how to break out of that box, I heard from Sam on your show where he mentioned he has his four values that he figures out how he can like kind of level up on whatever every year.
[00:46:07.040 --> 00:46:10.640] And for him, it's fun, family, finance, and fitness.
[00:46:10.640 --> 00:46:18.560] And like those different buckets, he just says, okay, what like, you know, sort of fitness project do I want to like push my limits and get out of my comfort zone on, right?
[00:46:18.560 --> 00:46:23.760] And just knowing that one little heuristic, he doesn't have to know in advance like what particular projects.
[00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:25.840] Like that's that's still this mystery box, right?
[00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:30.000] And it's going to naturally lead him to go into these weird adventures.
[00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:35.600] And I heard that and I immediately ran to Cortland and was like, ah, it's sort of similar to my thing, right?
[00:46:35.600 --> 00:46:42.400] Because I've got, you know, connections, that's connections, craftsmanship, contribution, and character.
[00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:51.360] And it's like, yeah, it's just like easy to remember, but I mean, it's this thing that like in a way forces me to do random shocks.
[00:46:51.520 --> 00:46:52.560] I've got connections, naturally.
[00:46:53.040 --> 00:46:56.400] Character, cocaine, and as long as it starts with a C, I'm doing it.
[00:46:57.360 --> 00:46:58.400] I think that's right.
[00:46:59.040 --> 00:47:01.200] You know, it's actually a good point.
[00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:04.800] A good bit of life advice is ask yourself different questions.
[00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:10.640] So if you ask yourself a question, most people's the quality of questions they ask themselves are terrible.
[00:47:10.640 --> 00:47:15.520] Most people's questions they ask themselves are basically insults wrapped in a question.
[00:47:15.520 --> 00:47:18.160] So it's like, why do I always do this?
[00:47:18.160 --> 00:47:19.480] Or why can't I?
[00:47:19.480 --> 00:47:20.720] Why can't I find somebody?
[00:47:20.720 --> 00:47:22.400] Why am I so blah, blah, blah?
[00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:23.680] So it's basically, those are the insults.
[00:47:23.680 --> 00:47:25.920] That's like the worst type of question you can ask yourself.
[00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:34.920] The other bad trap, which a lot of successful people fall into, is they keep repeating the same questions that get them the results they're already getting.
[00:47:35.240 --> 00:47:38.920] So I call this the stressor achiever persona.
[00:47:38.920 --> 00:47:41.240] It's basically a person who achieves things.
[00:47:41.240 --> 00:47:46.040] They're stressed out the whole time and their life is like very narrow.
[00:47:46.040 --> 00:47:48.600] Like they're just really going on some track, some ladder.
[00:47:48.600 --> 00:47:58.680] And that ladder first was go to AP biology and AP English and then get to the get to the good school, then get to the good school, get to the good job, and get to promotion, get to the manager.
[00:47:58.680 --> 00:48:02.600] And then even when they go to entrepreneurship and they're like, yeah, F, the career ladder.
[00:48:02.600 --> 00:48:06.040] Then they're like, I raised my seed round, then my series A, then my series B.
[00:48:06.040 --> 00:48:07.880] It's like, you just found a new ladder, bro.
[00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:09.400] Like, you're just, you're still ladder.
[00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:11.080] You're still on some track.
[00:48:11.080 --> 00:48:20.280] And not to say the tracks are all bad, but they lead you to just like narrow your sense of what's possible and what the questions you ask yourself on a day-to-day basis.
[00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:26.360] So a question that I think is worth asking is: what's something I'm looking forward to a lot?
[00:48:26.360 --> 00:48:30.360] What's something I'm really excited about in my life right now?
[00:48:30.680 --> 00:48:34.920] And when you ask this, it's surprising how hard it is to come up with this.
[00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:37.720] It's kind of disappointing how hard it is to come up with a good answer.
[00:48:37.720 --> 00:48:42.440] The other disappointing thing is if the thing you're saying, the thing you're excited about is like six months away.
[00:48:42.440 --> 00:48:48.840] It's like, wow, all right, that's a lot of hours between now and then, you know, like, and can I pull the future forward?
[00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:50.680] Can I pull some fun forward?
[00:48:50.680 --> 00:48:55.560] And as soon as you ask yourself that question, sure enough, you're like, well, I can just go do that tomorrow.
[00:48:55.560 --> 00:48:57.800] Or I'm going to fucking go to the zoo tomorrow.
[00:48:57.800 --> 00:49:01.080] Or I'm going to like, and I'm going to call a friend and we're going to go play some tennis.
[00:49:01.080 --> 00:49:02.600] We're going to go do something.
[00:49:02.600 --> 00:49:04.280] And you will find yourself pulling it forward.
[00:49:04.280 --> 00:49:24.960] And so, whichever area of your life you are like caring about, like the family, the fitness, the fun, the finances, whatever it is, like it's good to think about what's a better question I can ask myself because most of life is just a dialogue you're having with yourself, and um, rarely do we upgrade that dialogue.
[00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:31.200] We have the same old, same old conversations with ourselves, and like if you change that, all your actions then change.
[00:49:31.200 --> 00:49:34.720] And I think that's like a really underrated thing that most people don't do.
[00:49:34.720 --> 00:49:44.640] I think in that vein, one of the things you can do that's like pretty creative and will get you thinking differently is to literally just impersonate other people when you're asking yourself these questions.
[00:49:44.640 --> 00:49:46.160] Like, I'll do this with podcasters sometimes.
[00:49:46.240 --> 00:49:48.000] We're like, How would Lex Friedman ask this question?
[00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:48.160] Right?
[00:49:48.160 --> 00:49:52.560] If he was talking to you, he'd be like, Oh, you know, Sean, like, what's the biggest source of love in your life, right?
[00:49:52.560 --> 00:49:55.680] And he was just, I would never think of that question, but like, he'll think about that, right?
[00:49:55.840 --> 00:49:56.240] Next question.
[00:49:56.240 --> 00:50:00.800] Or, like, yeah, how would Patrick Collison like interview or Tyler Cowan or how would you like ask a question?
[00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:10.240] And I think there's just something that happens when you impersonate somebody else that you instantly adopt an entirely new perspective on the world that you just wouldn't naturally come to on your own.
[00:50:10.240 --> 00:50:10.800] Totally.
[00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:12.080] I'll give you an example of that.
[00:50:12.080 --> 00:50:18.080] Um, we have a buddy, me and Ben have this buddy, uh, Suli, who's like, you know, one of our best friends, but also kind of like a business mentor.
[00:50:18.080 --> 00:50:20.800] So, like, on a personal level, we're really good friends.
[00:50:21.120 --> 00:50:25.360] From a business point of view, he's like a black belt, and I consider myself like a blue belt or something like that.
[00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:30.720] So, I'm like, I try to, you know, spar with him so I can see where I can improve.
[00:50:30.720 --> 00:50:32.800] And he helped us out a lot with the Milk Road.
[00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:36.640] And I remember we had the conversation about when to sell or should we sell.
[00:50:36.640 --> 00:50:40.400] And it was like, hey, this is kind of crazy to sell this thing one year in when it's working.
[00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:45.600] Like, it's, it'd be one thing if, like, this was a bad business, but this is actually a good business.
[00:50:45.600 --> 00:50:48.640] And we're like, shouldn't we just hold on to it?
[00:50:48.640 --> 00:50:56.400] And it's like he asked a bunch of questions that, like, I've now hung out with him enough that I already knew what he was going to ask.
[00:50:56.400 --> 00:51:01.480] And therefore, like, I could actually just simulate the whole conversation in my head and get to better clarity.
[00:50:59.840 --> 00:51:03.800] And I'll give you an example of some of the questions that he asked.
[00:51:03.880 --> 00:51:11.960] But it's like, I could have bet you $10 he was going to ask these questions, which is, you know, he would point out that, well, if you're thinking about selling, there's a part of you that wants to.
[00:51:12.200 --> 00:51:12.680] Why?
[00:51:12.680 --> 00:51:13.960] Why do you want to?
[00:51:13.960 --> 00:51:16.360] Because you're saying it's a great business, blah, blah, blah.
[00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:16.920] Like, cool.
[00:51:16.920 --> 00:51:19.560] And you wouldn't even consider this unless there was something.
[00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:21.640] Are they offering an outlandish price?
[00:51:21.640 --> 00:51:24.040] Is there something, some risk you're worried about?
[00:51:24.040 --> 00:51:26.760] Is there something else you want to go do?
[00:51:26.760 --> 00:51:28.200] Like, what's the reason?
[00:51:28.200 --> 00:51:31.320] And so he asked that, and that got me to get more clear.
[00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:34.840] The other thing he said was, I was like, yeah, we're just getting started, blah, blah, blah.
[00:51:34.920 --> 00:51:39.720] He goes, well, there is another possibility, which is all the easy stuff is done.
[00:51:39.720 --> 00:51:41.240] And now comes the grind.
[00:51:41.240 --> 00:51:44.200] And he's like, so which is more true?
[00:51:44.840 --> 00:51:48.760] Are you just getting going and like now it's going to get easier from here?
[00:51:48.760 --> 00:51:52.760] Or did you take all the low-hanging fruit and is it going to get a lot harder from here?
[00:51:52.760 --> 00:52:02.360] And again, like, forget the other, I asked these questions because for somebody out there who's got their business and they're thinking about what to do with it, these are really useful questions that are high-level.
[00:52:02.360 --> 00:52:05.240] These are black belt questions, not like beginner questions.
[00:52:05.240 --> 00:52:10.360] But the second thing is, to your point, I kind of knew what he would say on a bunch of the things that I was going to bring up.
[00:52:10.680 --> 00:52:21.720] And actually, what ends up happening is I just start auditing and editing my sentence before it even comes out of my mouth because I'm like, I know I can't get away with saying this bullshit around this guy because he sniffs out bullshit.
[00:52:21.720 --> 00:52:25.160] So let me just cut the bullshit out to begin with and not even say it.
[00:52:25.560 --> 00:52:29.240] It's like you'll let yourself off the hook, but if you impersonate him, you know, he wouldn't let you off the hook.
[00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:30.360] He would never let me off the hook.
[00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:34.440] Like, this will happen often with when I'm hitting a plateau or complaining about something.
[00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:36.440] It's like, oh, it's so hard to do this.
[00:52:36.440 --> 00:52:38.920] It's like, I know that he would be like, well, what would situation?
[00:52:39.160 --> 00:52:40.760] Yeah, didn't these other five companies do it?
[00:52:40.760 --> 00:52:41.960] So, like, clearly, it's doable.
[00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:43.960] Like, are they better than you?
[00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:46.000] Is that yeah, like, are they smarter than you?
[00:52:44.040 --> 00:52:50.560] Or is there something that's so unusual about your circumstances that you can't do that?
[00:52:51.040 --> 00:53:02.320] Like, so then I'm like, Yeah, let's not waste the breath talking about how difficult something is when clearly it's possible and I just need to spend my time thinking about possibilities instead of thinking about woe is me.
[00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:07.760] So, clearly, you decided to sell, you went through that process and you successfully sold.
[00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:14.160] So, like, any high-level or low-level tactics that you have for selling and negotiating?
[00:53:14.160 --> 00:53:16.480] Yeah, I want to know about negotiation specifically.
[00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:24.400] Chang and I just went through like a pretty high-level negotiation with like literally a dude who's bought and sold like 250 companies at some of the biggest companies.
[00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:31.280] And I think I would have gotten burned in that negotiation if I hadn't already been burned, kind of in like an earlier negotiation.
[00:53:31.280 --> 00:53:32.320] Like, I learned some tactics.
[00:53:32.320 --> 00:53:34.000] I'm like, I gotta fucking do this next time.
[00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:35.440] And, like, luckily, I got that result.
[00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:41.360] Like, how do you guys approach negotiation to try to make as much money as possible when you were selling the Milk Road?
[00:53:41.360 --> 00:53:48.160] Ben, I'll let you kind of give him your take on what you're because this was, I think, your first big negotiation.
[00:53:48.160 --> 00:53:52.560] Like, selling your company, I think, is one of the highest stakes negotiations you're going to do, right?
[00:53:52.560 --> 00:53:55.280] You've put years of effort usually into the thing.
[00:53:55.520 --> 00:53:56.960] It's your baby.
[00:53:56.960 --> 00:53:58.640] You don't want it to fall apart.
[00:53:58.640 --> 00:54:02.400] You also want to don't leave a bunch of value on the table by agreeing too easily.
[00:54:02.560 --> 00:54:06.800] You don't get a lot of reps at doing this, so it's hard to get good because you do never done it.
[00:54:06.880 --> 00:54:10.480] If you're lucky once every few years, this was my second time doing it.
[00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:11.200] It was Ben's first.
[00:54:11.200 --> 00:54:14.080] So, Ben, I'll let you go, then I'll give you kind of my take too.
[00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:22.400] Yeah, on the previous point, too, like, I think when we were going back and forth with Suli, like, every three hours, we would be like, in a group chat, we'd be like, oh, we should sell.
[00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:24.960] And then three hours later, we'd be like, no, we're not selling.
[00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:30.200] I remember there was a specific moment where he was just like, what is your visceral reaction to selling?
[00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:30.760] Yes or no?
[00:54:30.920 --> 00:54:34.920] Like, just type yes or no immediately, and that's what you guys should do.
[00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:38.440] And like, I remember that being like our three dots typing.
[00:54:38.440 --> 00:54:40.040] He's like, so what do you want to do?
[00:54:40.040 --> 00:54:40.280] Right?
[00:54:40.280 --> 00:54:41.000] Simple question.
[00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:44.040] So do you want, do you want to sell or can you keep running the company?
[00:54:44.040 --> 00:54:48.360] And then it'd be like, our dot dot dot typing some essay with pros and cons.
[00:54:48.360 --> 00:54:54.680] And he's like, guys, you should just have a visceral reaction to the idea of selling or not selling.
[00:54:54.680 --> 00:54:56.520] And like, start with that.
[00:54:56.520 --> 00:54:57.480] Then we'll go from there.
[00:54:57.480 --> 00:54:59.400] We'll add analysis later.
[00:54:59.400 --> 00:55:04.040] And then I think in terms of like negotiations, like, yeah, it was kind of my first rodeo.
[00:55:04.040 --> 00:55:09.080] I would say, one, you know, at the beginning, we were just kind of fishing around to see what was possible.
[00:55:09.080 --> 00:55:12.920] And then two, I think the main thing we did is we brought more people to the party.
[00:55:13.160 --> 00:55:22.200] So like as soon as we knew someone was interested, like I think first thing we did is we kind of set a rough number or a rough range in our head to where it would be kind of a doable deal.
[00:55:22.200 --> 00:55:29.560] And then we went and we found three or four more interested people to pit them against each other to talk to kind of practice.
[00:55:29.560 --> 00:55:35.080] By the way, I should say, that wasn't the initial instinct that I think most people have, which is, it sounds obvious, right?
[00:55:35.080 --> 00:55:41.400] It sounds like a normal, it sounds like a very obvious point, but your instinct when someone's interested is to go deeper and date them.
[00:55:41.400 --> 00:55:44.520] And instead, what you do is you actually stall them for a second.
[00:55:44.600 --> 00:55:46.840] You're like, oh, they're interested?
[00:55:46.840 --> 00:55:47.240] Great.
[00:55:47.240 --> 00:55:52.200] Fucking ignore them and go get three more interesting people because like this will never work without that.
[00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:55.560] And you will never maximize unless you can go get some more people to the table.
[00:55:55.560 --> 00:55:58.520] Where I think the initial instinct is, oh, they asked us for this.
[00:55:58.520 --> 00:56:00.200] Let's give them that document tomorrow.
[00:56:00.200 --> 00:56:01.960] And then they want to meet again.
[00:56:01.960 --> 00:56:02.600] And let's meet again.
[00:56:02.600 --> 00:56:08.440] Let's get hot and heavy with this party real quick because, oh, they said all the right things and it sounds like it's going to work.
[00:56:08.440 --> 00:56:13.800] And in actuality, it's the time to immediately sprint on other options.
[00:56:14.520 --> 00:56:19.280] What prompted you to do the like counter instinctual thing then in this case?
[00:56:19.600 --> 00:56:20.400] Just experience.
[00:56:20.400 --> 00:56:23.280] Like the same thing happened last year where I was like, oh, okay.
[00:56:23.600 --> 00:56:24.880] I understand now how this works.
[00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:26.160] And fundraising is the same way.
[00:56:26.160 --> 00:56:29.440] Like, you know, I realize that these are auctions.
[00:56:29.440 --> 00:56:32.640] And once you decide that you might sell, you need to run the auction.
[00:56:32.640 --> 00:56:36.240] But to run the auction, you need all the parties interested at the same time.
[00:56:36.240 --> 00:56:38.400] Every time delay costs you money.
[00:56:38.400 --> 00:56:41.120] So that's where I was like, okay, now I know how to play this.
[00:56:41.120 --> 00:56:42.960] And we initially didn't plan for it.
[00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:47.840] Like we were, we reached out to somebody basically being like, hey, can we advertise with you guys?
[00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:50.160] You have a crypto audience on your website.
[00:56:50.160 --> 00:56:52.000] Like they might want to read our newsletter.
[00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:55.440] Could we do like a swap or like we'll pay you a dollar for somebody that subscribes?
[00:56:55.440 --> 00:56:57.760] Like, what, you know, you're interested in something like that?
[00:56:57.760 --> 00:57:00.880] And they were like, no, but we actually really like the Milk Road.
[00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:01.600] We would actually buy it.
[00:57:01.600 --> 00:57:03.760] And then it was like, oh, great.
[00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:04.240] Cool.
[00:57:04.240 --> 00:57:05.120] Let me get back to you.
[00:57:05.280 --> 00:57:07.360] Let me think about if we would want to do that.
[00:57:07.360 --> 00:57:13.280] And then we had our conversations and simultaneously booted up like, well, if we're going to talk to them, who else would be the people that we would talk to?
[00:57:13.280 --> 00:57:16.240] Make the hit list and start those conversations ASAP.
[00:57:16.240 --> 00:57:27.520] Yeah, and I think the other thing that I thought was helpful is like one of the frames, it's really, I thought it was really easy to be like dreaming about how much money we were going to make and be like, oh, now I'm just dreaming and hoping that this happens.
[00:57:27.520 --> 00:57:38.720] And I think one of the frames that Sean really hit a lot was like, look, even if we don't sell here, we're going to learn a lot about the business and what people are interested in, what they're not interested in, where we need to get better.
[00:57:38.720 --> 00:57:41.120] So I think try to, like, we tried to embrace that.
[00:57:41.120 --> 00:57:47.040] Like, even if this deal doesn't happen and we want it to, we're going to get a bunch of data points of things that people are curious about.
[00:57:47.040 --> 00:57:52.480] So, like, if we come back in a year or two, we're going to be way stronger for these reasons.
[00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:54.400] Yeah, that's a really, really important one.
[00:57:54.400 --> 00:57:56.880] Another thing that Sully had taught me, he had done this with his business.
[00:57:56.880 --> 00:57:59.680] He's like, had this beautiful, rosy picture of his business.
[00:57:59.680 --> 00:58:02.520] I was like, oh, of course somebody will want to buy this.
[00:58:02.520 --> 00:58:04.680] And he went and he tried to sell it himself.
[00:57:59.840 --> 00:58:08.440] And immediately the market's like, at first, they're like, wow, great business.
[00:58:08.440 --> 00:58:09.240] We'd love to learn more.
[00:58:09.240 --> 00:58:12.680] And as they learn more, they're like, this and that.
[00:58:12.680 --> 00:58:14.680] And, oh, you only do this.
[00:58:14.680 --> 00:58:15.640] Like, have you thought about this?
[00:58:15.640 --> 00:58:17.720] And it's like, why do they keep talking about those three things?
[00:58:17.720 --> 00:58:20.280] They're missing the big idea, the big, the good parts.
[00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:23.960] It's like, actually, those are what's important to them as a buyer.
[00:58:23.960 --> 00:58:35.240] And if you do that with enough people, you get a real objective opinion about what your business is worth, where it is strong, why they value it at anything, and where it's weak.
[00:58:35.240 --> 00:58:36.760] And then you're like, oh, okay.
[00:58:36.760 --> 00:58:38.600] You know, like, let's take a newsletter, for example.
[00:58:38.600 --> 00:58:47.400] Oh, you value this on, are they valuing this on profits, revenues, or do they look at the subscriber engagement and then assign a value per subscriber?
[00:58:47.720 --> 00:58:48.760] Oh, interesting.
[00:58:48.760 --> 00:58:58.600] Once I know how they think about this and what they're worried about, then I know if I was going to sell this 12 months or 24 months from now, that gives me a blueprint.
[00:58:58.600 --> 00:59:03.720] That gives me a roadmap of how to make my business a lot stronger and more valuable to the objective person.
[00:59:03.720 --> 00:59:06.920] So that's one component to it is learning that that's true.
[00:59:06.920 --> 00:59:19.400] And then the other is this great quote that after we got acquired by my previous company got acquired by Twitch, Emmett, who's the CEO of Twitch and the co-founder of Twitch, he has this great phrase that he learned from Paul Graham from White Common Nature.
[00:59:19.400 --> 00:59:21.320] He goes, he goes, what is it?
[00:59:21.320 --> 00:59:24.840] He goes, birds fly, fish swim, and deals fall through.
[00:59:24.840 --> 00:59:31.320] And so that's the other, like, he, anytime someone would come to the table and be like, super proud, like, oh, we had this great meeting.
[00:59:31.320 --> 00:59:33.240] They're super interested.
[00:59:33.240 --> 00:59:34.920] And then they start forecasting all this stuff.
[00:59:34.920 --> 00:59:36.680] He's like, great.
[00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:38.120] Just know.
[00:59:38.120 --> 00:59:40.120] Birds fly, fish swim, and deals fall through.
[00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:41.320] And then he would say that.
[00:59:41.320 --> 00:59:44.440] And you can see they're like, okay, buzzkill.
[00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:46.960] Sure enough, it gets even better.
[00:59:46.960 --> 00:59:49.200] We get the term sheet or get the contract.
[00:59:44.840 --> 00:59:51.200] Oh, yeah, we're just working on the last few details.
[00:59:51.520 --> 00:59:52.800] Sure enough, deal falls through.
[00:59:52.800 --> 01:00:02.560] And the same thing happened in our acquisition process, which was, first of all, we had to go in with this mentality that most likely, don't start dreaming about all the shit you're going to buy.
[01:00:02.800 --> 01:00:04.720] Most likely, there's no deal to be had.
[01:00:04.720 --> 01:00:08.560] Let's go in with that understanding that that is the likely scenario.
[01:00:08.560 --> 01:00:10.000] And that means two things.
[01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:15.680] Don't check out of running the business and start imagining a world where you don't have to work and don't have to do hard things.
[01:00:15.680 --> 01:00:18.640] And secondly, don't like count on these coming through.
[01:00:18.640 --> 01:00:28.480] That way you're emotionally detached and can actually not be desperate when it comes to the negotiations because a negotiation will go in the favor of whoever has more leverage.
[01:00:28.480 --> 01:00:33.440] And the thing that nukes all logical leverage is your emotions.
[01:00:33.440 --> 01:00:39.440] If your emotions are desperate to buy or desperate to sell, you have lost all your leverage in that one emotional swing.
[01:00:39.440 --> 01:00:41.360] So you have to be emotionally detached.
[01:00:41.360 --> 01:00:52.240] I mean, there's a similarity between the acquisitions of Indie Hackers and Milk Road, it sounds like, and that this wasn't just a project of like, hey, let's go try to get acquired.
[01:00:52.240 --> 01:00:57.680] You said you were reaching out about advertising and then this other avenue opened up.
[01:00:57.680 --> 01:01:11.360] And I wonder if that adds or if that like sort of enhances your, a little bit of your emotional attachment because like the roadmap that was sort of in your head before that was like you probably knew what the next six, 12, 18 months probably were going to look like.
[01:01:11.360 --> 01:01:17.360] Whereas if you're like, you know, this is kind of a fire sale or something, you know, we really want to get out for whatever reason.
[01:01:17.360 --> 01:01:19.920] It seems that you're a little bit more desperate.
[01:01:19.920 --> 01:01:22.080] It's something that you're explicitly looking for.
[01:01:22.080 --> 01:01:25.040] You're going to be way more better to not need to sell.
[01:01:25.040 --> 01:01:25.520] Right.
[01:01:25.520 --> 01:01:26.480] Yeah, always better.
[01:01:26.480 --> 01:01:28.560] And there's really three to three buckets you could be in.
[01:01:28.560 --> 01:01:32.840] You could be Instagram, and it's like, yeah, we're the next big thing, and everybody wants us.
[01:01:33.160 --> 01:01:38.120] You have a very different negotiation style, practice, and outcome.
[01:01:38.120 --> 01:01:44.040] Then there's like where we were with Milk Road, which is we have a good business that we like, we don't have to sell it.
[01:01:44.040 --> 01:01:49.720] But if the deal was right, price was right, partners were right, people were right, then we'll do it.
[01:01:49.720 --> 01:01:51.560] And then there's this shit's not working.
[01:01:51.560 --> 01:01:58.280] What can I do to like, you know, scrap some value out of this for myself, my investors, for my sanity, for whatever else, right?
[01:01:58.280 --> 01:02:01.320] To land the plane because the engine's on fire.
[01:02:01.320 --> 01:02:04.280] And just be honest with yourself, which category are you in?
[01:02:04.280 --> 01:02:07.800] And once you know which category you're in, you have like a slightly different tactic.
[01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:14.040] And I've done the second and third before, and I've never done the first, but I don't think it takes much skill to do the first.
[01:02:14.280 --> 01:02:16.920] When you're the first one, you hire a banker and you run the process.
[01:02:16.920 --> 01:02:18.680] Like it's pretty straightforward.
[01:02:18.680 --> 01:02:19.240] Yeah.
[01:02:19.400 --> 01:02:21.400] You know, you pick the highest number.
[01:02:21.640 --> 01:02:26.760] Yeah, everyone's coming inbound and everyone's outbidding each other because you have the in-demand hot thing.
[01:02:26.760 --> 01:02:37.000] But I wanted to say one more thing about deals following through because I think this is really important, which was we got to a point where we had two offers that side by side were about equal.
[01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:38.440] One was a bit better.
[01:02:38.760 --> 01:02:51.880] And one had been like a lot more thorough and diligenced and like, you know, lots of conversations, lots of questions, lots of sessions, you know, talking through different problems, whatever.
[01:02:51.880 --> 01:02:55.560] And the other one was still a little bit earlier in the conversation.
[01:02:55.560 --> 01:02:59.240] And we had a conversation with, I think, I forgot who it was, Bollaji.
[01:02:59.240 --> 01:03:03.400] I think I called Bollaji and I was like, yo, what would you do with this?
[01:03:03.400 --> 01:03:04.840] And he said something really smart.
[01:03:05.000 --> 01:03:12.520] He goes, I gave him the information about the offers, but I didn't tell him how they were on slightly different timelines.
[01:03:12.520 --> 01:03:14.360] One was more mature than the other.
[01:03:14.360 --> 01:03:17.680] And when I said that at the end, he goes, oh, forget everything I just said.
[01:03:14.840 --> 01:03:21.520] He goes, most deals will fall apart twice before they happen.
[01:03:22.080 --> 01:03:26.480] This other one, you're telling me has almost, you know, you've both walked away twice already.
[01:03:26.480 --> 01:03:30.400] And so this is a real offer, and it's a serious offer and will likely close.
[01:03:30.400 --> 01:03:33.280] This other one is, you're still in your honeymoon phase.
[01:03:33.280 --> 01:03:34.320] You haven't walked away yet.
[01:03:34.320 --> 01:03:37.440] They haven't kicked the tires in the most serious way yet.
[01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:41.440] Like, you need to discount that by maybe 50 to 90%.
[01:03:41.520 --> 01:03:43.600] He's like, so you thought these were close.
[01:03:43.600 --> 01:03:44.720] They're not close.
[01:03:44.720 --> 01:03:48.160] And he turned out to be completely correct in that analysis.
[01:03:48.160 --> 01:03:56.480] And so I would say the two takeaways for somebody who's trying to sell their business is the rule of two: you're going to break up twice before you end up getting married, most likely.
[01:03:56.480 --> 01:04:08.080] I don't know if that happened for you guys, but it's very, very common to sort of like feel like there's no deal happening twice, either because of a legal reason or a finance number or some other holdup that pops up.
[01:04:08.080 --> 01:04:21.040] And then also, if you're in the case where one deal has actually gone through that process and gone through the fire a little bit and gone through the diligence and the other one hasn't, you have to apply a pretty aggressive discount factor to all the terms.
[01:04:21.600 --> 01:04:32.080] We had like the exceptional story where like the day between Stripe saying, hey, we want to buy indie hackers and us like having agreed to numbers and have attorneys like drafting on paperwork was like four days.
[01:04:32.080 --> 01:04:34.320] It was like, wow, boom, wham, bam.
[01:04:34.320 --> 01:04:39.920] And then, and like a later negotiation that I've gone through, it was what you're talking about.
[01:04:39.920 --> 01:04:43.360] Like two, three months of like tense conversations.
[01:04:43.360 --> 01:04:44.640] This might not happen.
[01:04:44.640 --> 01:04:48.960] Prepare for the worst case scenario, uh, before things like concluded.
[01:04:48.960 --> 01:04:52.000] I think that's like, that's why I know I did the first one wrong.
[01:04:52.440 --> 01:04:57.440] Casual casual conversations about, like, oh, we could just walk away, like, just like feeling that heat.
[01:04:58.000 --> 01:04:59.600] What we didn't feel in the original.
[01:04:59.600 --> 01:05:04.280] Yeah, yeah, they should push hard enough where like it might not work, otherwise, you're giving up too easy.
[01:05:04.600 --> 01:05:06.360] Yeah, you haven't found the line yet, right?
[01:05:06.360 --> 01:05:11.560] You haven't found their actual line, and they haven't found yours exactly in that process.
[01:05:11.800 --> 01:05:20.280] The other two things that I thought were interesting is I think we at least I learned in this, like, we would ask for something from the guys we ended up working with, and they would just say no.
[01:05:20.280 --> 01:05:25.080] And I was like, oh, wow, they're pushing back pretty aggressively, and we're still interested.
[01:05:25.080 --> 01:05:28.600] So, you know, there are ways to push back and not turn the other party off.
[01:05:28.600 --> 01:05:35.960] And then, two, I thought it was Destiny when they invited us to dinner and it was the same restaurant that Sean went to when he closed his Twitch deal.
[01:05:35.960 --> 01:05:38.040] I was like, oh, this is happening.
[01:05:38.040 --> 01:05:39.080] Wow, Sean, is that by the way?
[01:05:39.240 --> 01:05:40.040] Does he know that?
[01:05:40.040 --> 01:05:43.400] No, in both cases, it's the other party who said, come, let's meet here.
[01:05:43.400 --> 01:05:45.880] And it just happened to be the same restaurant in San Francisco.
[01:05:45.880 --> 01:05:46.760] I need to start eating up.
[01:05:46.920 --> 01:05:47.400] Both times.
[01:05:47.400 --> 01:05:48.920] It's kind of crazy.
[01:05:48.920 --> 01:05:50.840] Well, listen, guys, we've taken up a lot of your time.
[01:05:51.000 --> 01:05:54.280] Thanks a ton for coming on the show, sharing the story of the Milk Road.
[01:05:54.840 --> 01:05:58.120] Where can people go to find out, you know, what's next for you guys?
[01:05:58.120 --> 01:05:58.920] What are you guys working on?
[01:05:59.160 --> 01:06:00.120] Where should we go?
[01:06:00.120 --> 01:06:03.400] Yeah, so we're brewing something up that I think is going to be pretty fun.
[01:06:03.400 --> 01:06:07.000] And I think right now, the place to do that is to go subscribe to the newsletter.
[01:06:07.000 --> 01:06:10.360] I actually want to publish a lot more about the Milk Road story.
[01:06:10.360 --> 01:06:15.640] So the origins, how we grew it, the how we sold it story.
[01:06:15.640 --> 01:06:16.680] So I'm going to publish that.
[01:06:16.680 --> 01:06:19.720] If you just go to SeanPuri.com.
[01:06:19.720 --> 01:06:23.000] So it's S-H-A-A-N-P-U-R-I.
[01:06:23.080 --> 01:06:24.920] So I don't know if you guys can put that in the description or something.
[01:06:25.160 --> 01:06:27.640] Just go there, put your email in, and that's where we're going to send that.
[01:06:27.640 --> 01:06:31.480] And me and Ben are going to start putting out a bunch more kind of amazing content.
[01:06:31.480 --> 01:06:33.800] Like, I'm basically going to not start another business.
[01:06:33.800 --> 01:06:39.080] I'm just going to put out incredible content for the next, like, I don't know, few years.
[01:06:39.080 --> 01:06:40.120] Ben, what about you?
[01:06:40.120 --> 01:06:41.080] Where are you at?
[01:06:41.080 --> 01:06:44.520] I'm on Sean's list too, but I've been guest posting.
[01:06:44.520 --> 01:06:50.000] I wrote my first one last week and you can follow me on Twitter at BenM Levy.
[01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:51.200] I need to get rid of that M.
[01:06:51.200 --> 01:06:52.720] I need to make my Twitter handles better.
[01:06:52.720 --> 01:06:53.680] But for now, Ben M.
[01:06:53.680 --> 01:06:54.480] Levy.
[01:06:54.720 --> 01:06:55.680] Who's got Ben Levy?
[01:06:55.680 --> 01:06:57.040] Who is this guy?
[01:06:57.040 --> 01:06:57.440] All right.
[01:06:57.440 --> 01:06:58.080] Thanks, guys.
[01:06:58.080 --> 01:06:58.480] Awesome.
[01:06:58.480 --> 01:06:59.680] See ya.