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[00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:11.040] From unsolved mysteries to unexplained phenomena, from comedy goal to relationship fails, Amazon Music's got the most ad-free top podcasts, included with Prime.
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[00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:30.080] 16 years from today, Greg Gerstner will finally land the perfect cannonball.
[00:00:30.400 --> 00:00:45.360] Epic Splash, Unsuspecting Friends, a work of art only possible because Greg is already meeting all these same people at AARP volunteer and community events that keep him active and involved and help make sure his happiness lives as long as he does.
[00:00:45.360 --> 00:00:49.280] That's why the younger you are, the more you need AARP.
[00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:53.040] Learn more at AARP.org/slash local.
[00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:02.880] You're listening to The Michael Shermer Show.
[00:01:10.160 --> 00:01:16.400] Here's a new book just came out: The Age of Choice: A History of Freedom in Modern Life.
[00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:17.280] You can see that, right?
[00:01:17.280 --> 00:01:18.320] Yep, there we go.
[00:01:18.320 --> 00:01:18.960] All right.
[00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:21.040] Sophia, congratulations on the book.
[00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:23.200] We're recording this two days after your pub date, I see.
[00:01:23.520 --> 00:01:25.520] That's so cool.
[00:01:25.520 --> 00:01:26.160] Thank you.
[00:01:26.160 --> 00:01:27.840] It's a pleasure to be speaking with you.
[00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:30.880] And yes, it is indeed two days after pub date.
[00:01:30.880 --> 00:01:35.360] You know, I have to say, I've published with both trade houses and university presses.
[00:01:35.360 --> 00:01:37.680] Yours is Princeton University Press.
[00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:53.760] The latter do I, in my opinion, I hate to say this in case my regular trade publisher hears this, but the higher, the quality of the production and the four-color photos and the typography layout, the quality of the paper is so good.
[00:01:54.080 --> 00:01:54.960] Isn't it beautiful?
[00:01:55.360 --> 00:01:56.320] Yeah, they did it.
[00:01:56.720 --> 00:02:01.640] It comes out with the trade end of Princeton University Press, which has a trade end.
[00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:04.440] And I think they do some of the most beautiful books out there.
[00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:05.800] Yeah, they did a nice job.
[00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:08.440] Okay, I always like to ask my guests, you know, what's your story?
[00:02:08.440 --> 00:02:09.240] So, what's your story?
[00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:10.600] How'd you get into history?
[00:02:10.600 --> 00:02:11.400] Where are you from?
[00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:12.200] Where'd you grow up?
[00:02:12.200 --> 00:02:15.000] How'd you get into studying history and all that?
[00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:23.880] See, I was born in New York City, grew up right outside the city in Leonia, New Jersey, small town on the other side of the George Washington Bridge.
[00:02:23.880 --> 00:02:31.720] And I was lucky to have great history teachers at some critical moments, high school, college.
[00:02:32.360 --> 00:02:36.760] And I guess I got hooked early on and never stopped being hooked.
[00:02:36.760 --> 00:02:44.760] Obviously, the kinds of things I'm interested in have evolved over time, but sometimes once you get the history bug, it's hard to get rid of it.
[00:02:44.760 --> 00:02:45.400] Yeah.
[00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:47.560] How do you decide what topics you want to take on?
[00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:51.000] I mean, apparently you're interested in politics, obviously.
[00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:52.600] I'm interested in politics.
[00:02:52.600 --> 00:02:53.160] I'm interested.
[00:02:53.160 --> 00:02:54.920] I'm an odd kind of historian, actually.
[00:02:54.920 --> 00:03:00.920] I'm a historian of the things we usually take for granted and therefore don't see as historical.
[00:03:00.920 --> 00:03:06.440] So, for instance, I wrote a book about common sense, and common sense is not something we tend to think is historical at all.
[00:03:06.440 --> 00:03:09.160] And I was interested in precisely how it is.
[00:03:09.160 --> 00:03:23.960] I think these ideas are kind of important because they're the ideas when we take them as natural and as givens, we don't see that they're flexible, that they come in and out of fashion, that they have, and that they do things and they have almost lives of their own.
[00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:32.120] So, I've been a historian for a long time of the, I'll call it the taken for granted, the assumptions we make, particularly the assumptions about politics.
[00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:36.440] Can you give us an example of what you mean by common sense and how that changed historically?
[00:03:36.760 --> 00:03:37.720] Sure.
[00:03:38.040 --> 00:03:44.040] So, common sense is supposed to be the things you kind of know just because you're living your life.
[00:03:44.040 --> 00:03:45.360] They're just obvious to you.
[00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:48.880] You know, you stick your hand in the fire, you're going to get burned, that kind of thing.
[00:03:49.200 --> 00:03:56.480] But if you actually look at lists of common sense over time, a lot of them turned out to be things that are quite disputable.
[00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:01.600] Today we're arguing: is it common sense that there are two genders or not?
[00:04:01.600 --> 00:04:07.280] Once upon a time, people argued, is it common sense that obviously God made everything that lies around us?
[00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:10.000] Most things turn out to be historically flexible.
[00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:14.880] And even the category itself of common sense is something of a modern invention.
[00:04:14.880 --> 00:04:24.240] It's an invention of really the 17th and 18th centuries that said ordinary people have some basic knowledge that's worth taking seriously.
[00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:27.280] And that really wasn't an idea before then either.
[00:04:27.280 --> 00:04:34.080] So both the content and the category itself turn out to have a long history.
[00:04:34.080 --> 00:04:35.200] Oh, that's so interesting.
[00:04:35.200 --> 00:04:39.040] Yeah, because I'm interested in the history of the superstition and magical thinking.
[00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:52.960] And so if you think of yourselves back a few centuries, half a millennium or so to where everybody believed in, say, witches or spirits or ghosts or demons and just, you know, things that go bump in the night, it was just kind of common knowledge.
[00:04:52.960 --> 00:04:57.040] We all know that's why the crops died or the cow got sick or whatever.
[00:04:58.000 --> 00:04:58.560] Absolutely.
[00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:03.600] And I'm sure some of the things that we think now are absolutely kind of taken for granted categories.
[00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:09.280] We'll turn out upon historical recollection at some future moment.
[00:05:09.280 --> 00:05:13.360] They'll say, how did those people in the early 21st century actually believe that?
[00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:14.320] Oh, I know.
[00:05:14.320 --> 00:05:15.440] I think about this all the time.
[00:05:15.440 --> 00:05:25.120] This, you know, kind of givens about our opinions on, I don't know, animal rights, say, or consciousness or dark energy, the Big Bang, whatever.
[00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:27.280] Just even scientific theories.
[00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:37.800] You know, we're pretty confident we have, you know, theories about this or that, but so were the people 500 years ago before Newton, you know, about why things fall the way that they do.
[00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:41.800] And then, like, oh, no, that's not that's not common knowledge at all.
[00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:43.720] I think history is really good for that.
[00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:51.160] It makes everybody question which assumptions are really rock solid and which aren't.
[00:05:51.160 --> 00:06:01.240] And history helps you see that things change over time, that we shouldn't pat ourselves on the back too quickly, that we know everything and people in the past knew nothing.
[00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:05.240] Yeah, I just had a podcast guest who is kind of an animal rights activist.
[00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:11.400] He's a moral philosopher that writes about harm reduction theory of our moral sentiments.
[00:06:11.400 --> 00:06:13.000] That is, that is our concern.
[00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:15.080] But of course, that wasn't the concern centuries ago.
[00:06:15.080 --> 00:06:21.880] No one cared less about other beings suffering, not even other humans, just as long as it didn't happen to me.
[00:06:22.840 --> 00:06:28.040] I mean, but people may look back on us and wonder: either how did they eat that much meat?
[00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:37.560] I don't know, or they might go the other direction, or how did they walk down the street and step over homeless people and not feel horrible qualms about not handing over their food to them?
[00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:45.160] It's hard to say what will be condemned for having ignored or not treated as a moral failure in the future.
[00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:45.800] Oh, totally.
[00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:51.320] This guy, Kirk Gray, he's got stats on like the number of animals that are killed every year.
[00:06:51.320 --> 00:06:55.640] I mean, it's billions and billions, actually, even trillions if you count like insects.
[00:06:55.640 --> 00:06:57.960] Some cultures eat insects.
[00:06:57.960 --> 00:07:00.600] And wow, yeah, it's just staggering.
[00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:03.640] And, but they taste so good, right?
[00:07:03.960 --> 00:07:05.800] So how's going to give it up?
[00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:07.560] Anyway, so, all right.
[00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:09.560] So, the age of choice.
[00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:13.560] Before we talk about choice, how do you decide, as a historian, what's the age?
[00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:19.440] I mean, it's not like the Olympic starting with the lighting of the torch and it began today.
[00:07:14.760 --> 00:07:21.840] You couldn't be more right about that.
[00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:24.080] History rarely has a kind of moment.
[00:07:24.080 --> 00:07:28.160] You can say that's the moment the state failed, or that's the moment something happened.
[00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:32.320] So, age is deliberately very broad.
[00:07:32.320 --> 00:07:34.240] It doesn't even say century.
[00:07:34.960 --> 00:07:43.040] But I think that the period we're talking about, we see the roots of it going back to the 17th and 18th centuries.
[00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:54.880] But it's really not till the late 19th into the 20th century that the idea that freedom really is a matter of having choices in all kinds of domains is really solidified.
[00:07:54.880 --> 00:07:57.040] So, I try to tell the long story.
[00:07:57.040 --> 00:08:02.560] I start back with things like the origins of shopping and the after effects of the Reformation.
[00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:23.360] I go pretty far back, but the whole time, what I'm really interested in is how did we get to this moment today and really largely since the Second World War, where we became convinced that this is what being an autonomous human looks like: to be a person who gets to pick off menus of options of different kinds.
[00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:32.800] And so, life wasn't always like that, is your point, that centuries ago people just had far fewer choices, or they didn't even think like I should have more choices.
[00:08:32.800 --> 00:08:35.200] They just didn't even occur to them.
[00:08:35.520 --> 00:08:36.240] Both.
[00:08:36.240 --> 00:09:01.320] I think people generally had far fewer choices, fewer choices about whom to marry, what to buy, what to eat for dinner, political candidates, entertainments, ideas, the kind of, you know, nobody lived in a world where, like we do, where you want to buy, I don't know, a new refrigerator, and you can go on Amazon and look at hundreds of different models.
[00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:02.840] That's something pretty new.
[00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:05.080] If Amazon sells refrigerators, I'm not even sure.
[00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:06.200] Oh, they sell everything.
[00:08:59.760 --> 00:09:07.080] You can get pretty much anything.
[00:09:08.280 --> 00:09:13.480] But that said, it's not just that the number of choices or the opportunities for choice kept growing.
[00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:17.320] It's also the valorization of choice shifted.
[00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:27.160] Once there was the notion, going back into the early modern period in Europe, for instance, that choice was largely about doing the right thing or the wrong thing.
[00:09:27.160 --> 00:09:28.440] That kind of choice mattered.
[00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:33.960] But the rest of those, the rest of choices one made were not particularly valued.
[00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:50.120] By the time you get to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in the 20th century, what human rights are often defined as the right to choose things, the right to choose your employment, the right to choose where you live, the right to choose your education, the right to choose a spouse.
[00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:57.960] And this gives an incredible value to choice as really what it means to be a person with rights in the world.
[00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:02.200] And that notion of humans just can't be found in an earlier moment.
[00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:12.520] So it's both an increase in quantity and probably quality of choices, but also the importance of them for the way we define ourselves and our politics.
[00:10:13.160 --> 00:10:19.640] So there's roughly two rights revolution periods, late 18th century and then mid-20th century.
[00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:32.280] Did in the late 18th century, say, with the American and French Revolutions and their Declaration of Rights, were those different than, say, what Eleanor Roosevelt was promoting with the Universal Declaration of Rights?
[00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:47.520] It's a great question because people tend to write the history of human rights in a sort of linear fashion: that the numbers of rights grew, the holders of rights grew, and the extent of them becoming global rather than national increased.
[00:10:47.520 --> 00:10:51.280] And it's kind of often told as if there's sort of a line and we can trace it.
[00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:56.640] I think something really fundamental shifts in conceptions of human rights.
[00:10:56.640 --> 00:11:04.560] Because if you look back at Bills of Rights, including the Declaration of the Rights of Man in France at the time of the French Revolution, no one's talking about choice.
[00:11:04.560 --> 00:11:06.400] It's not a word that gets used.
[00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:11.280] And there's a discussion certainly of political choice in the sense of voting.
[00:11:11.280 --> 00:11:14.640] But even there, it's imagined as a kind of communal choice.
[00:11:14.640 --> 00:11:18.560] The people will collectively or the nation will decide something.
[00:11:18.560 --> 00:11:28.720] It didn't mean you all by yourself in isolation deciding what your personal preferences were and getting to actualize them in the way we vote now.
[00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:32.560] So even in the sphere of voting, it's something different, I think.
[00:11:32.560 --> 00:11:37.600] So I'm interested as much as anything in that, how that shift happened.
[00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:39.920] Why did we conceive of rights in this way?
[00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:40.960] Yeah, interesting.
[00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:49.760] I mean, like Rousseau's vox populi as a choice, like you should be supporting the popular whatever the truth is that our group has decided.
[00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:54.160] Yeah, my much more collective sense of the truth for sure.
[00:11:54.160 --> 00:12:04.320] The sense that the people speak with one voice if they're right.
[00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:06.560] And there's a right thing to do and a wrong thing.
[00:12:06.560 --> 00:12:16.640] Even the idea of parties was really anathema in the 18th century in America, too, because the idea that there'd be sort of two legitimate paths didn't really exist.
[00:12:16.640 --> 00:12:21.360] There had to be some place of consensus that the people collectively agreed on.
[00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:32.440] So political choice was envisioned much more like that than what we do now, which is make lots and lots of individual choices and then aggregate them and see who has the majority in a kind of numerical contest.
[00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:37.880] Okay, so what triggered that socially, politically, culturally, or whatever?
[00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:39.800] Yeah, so what triggered that?
[00:12:39.800 --> 00:12:41.800] And that's, of course, a very difficult question.
[00:12:41.800 --> 00:12:42.200] Yeah.
[00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:45.960] Partly, it's the rise of commerce.
[00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:48.680] So part of the story is certainly commercial.
[00:12:49.320 --> 00:13:07.800] When cloth arrives from India in Western Europe and in the New World, and it comes in all these different new patterns, part of colonial and capitalist development, it offers new possibilities for the idea of making decisions that aren't based on moral grounds or even economic grounds.
[00:13:07.800 --> 00:13:11.320] If you prefer the blue over the red, it might just be your preference.
[00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:22.840] Part of it is the Reformation, which increased similarly the kinds of options in some sense and ideas and politics in what you could read, in what you could hear.
[00:13:23.160 --> 00:13:25.880] These are some of the root causes.
[00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:29.560] Certainly, political developments make a difference too.
[00:13:29.560 --> 00:13:49.400] But I think before you even get to the politics, before you get to the famous philosophers writing about these kinds of questions, you have people starting to live lives that involve more choice-making so that it comes to seem not a weird thing to do, but a rather ordinary thing to do the way we pick off menus of options without giving it a second thought all the time.
[00:13:50.360 --> 00:13:50.840] Right.
[00:13:50.840 --> 00:14:09.640] Okay, so your causal arrow then is going from more mundane daily choices like do I want the apple or the banana at the fruit stand, and then that somehow gets inculcated into our thoughts about choices that are much more important: spouses and political candidates or whatever.
[00:14:10.920 --> 00:14:17.920] And I will say that it's not just the practices, these kinds of things like going to a restaurant for the first time.
[00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:41.440] They're also, along with it, new ways of thinking that get conceptualized by people like famous people, some of them, people like Jon Stuart Mill or later Betty Ferdinand at different moments, who are people who look at this practice and try to extrapolate meaning from it and generally are trying to expand its horizons and say, look, there are possibilities in this.
[00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:50.480] If you can expand who gets to pick or what the options are or the domains in which we make choice, some kinds of liberation might be possible.
[00:14:50.960 --> 00:15:01.920] This is part of the abolitionist movement, part of the feminist movement, is to imagine that choice can be the foundations for certain kinds of emancipation.
[00:15:01.920 --> 00:15:02.800] Yeah, it's amazing.
[00:15:02.800 --> 00:15:05.200] I love this story of the choice of Hercules.
[00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:06.160] Here's the painting.
[00:15:06.160 --> 00:15:06.720] Oh, yeah.
[00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:08.000] I'll show everybody that.
[00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:10.480] And let me read the caption here.
[00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:20.960] It's an allegorical painting of a classical theme in which Hercules at the center has a choice between the rocky path of virtue on one side and hedonism and vice on the other, both represented as women.
[00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:26.320] Are there any paintings with like a woman standing there and two guys panting at her at her feet?
[00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.720] But look, turn the page, and you'll see.
[00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:33.760] If you turn the page, you'll see of a so-called coquette.
[00:15:33.760 --> 00:15:34.240] Yeah.
[00:15:35.040 --> 00:15:38.960] What's interesting is that the tables have been turned.
[00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:43.760] Here's a woman picking between two men, but they're not allegorical figures.
[00:15:43.760 --> 00:15:46.640] They're supposed to be actual suitors.
[00:15:46.640 --> 00:15:54.400] And whereas for Hercules, the choice is: do I do the right virtuous thing or do I do the wrong immoral thing?
[00:15:54.400 --> 00:16:01.560] For the coquette, who's this more modern chooser, it's a woman, and it's like she's in a store and she's picking between the blue cloth and the red cloth.
[00:16:01.640 --> 00:16:04.280] She's like, Do I like suitor A or suitor B?
[00:16:04.280 --> 00:16:08.120] It's not because one is superior to the other, it's just a matter of her taste.
[00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:17.160] And so it's supposed to be a kind of lightweight picture with no moral instruction, whereas the image of Hercules is, you know, a solid moral subject.
[00:16:17.160 --> 00:16:18.360] That's so interesting.
[00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:19.400] And why is that?
[00:16:19.400 --> 00:16:25.320] I mean, are these just masculine versus feminine interpretations of things, or are there a historical trend?
[00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:28.440] Both painters are men in both cases.
[00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:30.040] Both are 18th-century images.
[00:16:30.040 --> 00:16:32.760] That's why I put them back to back like that.
[00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:37.800] The newer one is the image of the coquette, and she's a kind of a new figure.
[00:16:37.800 --> 00:16:49.720] And sometimes the chooser, particularly in an era in which the chooser isn't yet really valorized, but it's a kind of a new thing, is often figured as a woman, partly because it comes out of the model of shopping.
[00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:52.920] And so women weren't necessarily being praised for this.
[00:16:52.920 --> 00:16:56.920] They were often being, you know, it was often a kind of pejorative view of women.
[00:16:56.920 --> 00:17:09.880] But the idea of the chooser in sort of this neutral territory with lots of options to browse among starts out as having a kind of feminine cast, and maybe it never really loses that entirely.
[00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:14.840] The idea that choice-making is a little like shopping and it's all a little suspect.
[00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:18.760] And what was real life like for just regular people?
[00:17:18.760 --> 00:17:21.640] Were they making these kinds of choices?
[00:17:22.280 --> 00:17:25.880] Increasingly, they were, but it depends who and where.
[00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:40.680] In the most sort of developed cities of Western Europe and North America and eventually Latin America as well, options become more a part of daily life, options even in entertainment.
[00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:43.080] This happens slowly, though.
[00:17:43.080 --> 00:17:46.960] It happens more slowly for the poor than for the wealthy.
[00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:58.720] It happens probably more in what we'd now call sort of an upper middle class than in any other class, because aristocrats, the highest ranks, are more likely to have had their lives already set for them.
[00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:04.160] You know, they were already going to be married so-and-so, inherit this property, earn this income.
[00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:06.000] There was very little that was left to chance.
[00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:10.560] That was partly why they were considered largely independent people.
[00:18:10.560 --> 00:18:13.360] For the poor, it took longer, certainly.
[00:18:13.360 --> 00:18:31.600] But by the late 19th, 20th century, even if poor people, say, weren't choosing between sumptuous kinds of cloth, they might be choosing between ribbons or buttons or stockings or cheaper goods that, and then eventually mass-produced goods that gave the same sort of opportunities for choice.
[00:18:31.600 --> 00:18:34.720] The same goes for things like picking a spouse.
[00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:38.400] It takes, it's not an overnight development at all.
[00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:54.320] But by the end of the 19th century into the 20th, it becomes pretty ordinary for most people to think you're supposed to marry somebody you have a kind of a preference for, not just the person picked out for you by your town or your parents or your priest or someone else.
[00:18:54.640 --> 00:19:00.960] And that shift from sort of arranged marriages to you pick on your own and your parents have no say in it.
[00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:02.800] When does that start to happen?
[00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:13.040] It starts probably, there's some theories that probably in England first spreads across continental Europe.
[00:19:13.040 --> 00:19:16.960] There are beginnings of it in the 18th century.
[00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:29.640] And it's still not the common practice, but anybody who's ever read a novel from the 18th century onwards, or if you think of Jane Austen, for instance, these people are already within limits, sort of contracting for themselves.
[00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:32.280] Everybody else is pressing on them in different ways.
[00:19:32.280 --> 00:19:37.880] They're not making unconstrained choices, but they have a fair amount of autonomy.
[00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:59.720] And if you think of the modern novel, it's often modern meaning 18th century onwards, it's often about a person in circumstances in which they have to make certain kinds of choices and they have some preferences, but they also feel the call of duty and other people's obligations and social pressures, and they're navigating that.
[00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:02.200] Sometimes for men, it's about choice of profession.
[00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:06.920] For women, it's almost always about choice in a husband.
[00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:10.840] Yeah, even there, though, the choice, you know, parents have some role in this.
[00:20:10.840 --> 00:20:15.720] Like, you can pick anyone from the country club that we're a member of.
[00:20:16.040 --> 00:20:20.440] But don't even think about going down to the working class place.
[00:20:20.760 --> 00:20:24.440] We still largely pick within our own social categories.
[00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:32.440] Even if we're picking increasingly, say, across religion or race, it's usually somebody you were educated with or somebody in your profession.
[00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:39.560] The sort of marriage of people from completely different classes and backgrounds is still exceptional.
[00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:49.320] Maybe we create our own categories now, but again, we don't look at the whole world and line up everybody and give them all equal weighting either.
[00:20:49.320 --> 00:20:49.800] Yeah.
[00:20:50.120 --> 00:20:52.680] You also talk about or make reference to Adam and Eve.
[00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:54.120] Is that the first choice?
[00:20:54.120 --> 00:20:55.880] At least in literature.
[00:20:56.440 --> 00:20:57.560] Probably is.
[00:20:57.560 --> 00:20:59.560] And look what a fateful one it was.
[00:20:59.560 --> 00:21:02.040] I mean, and again, who does the choosing?
[00:21:02.040 --> 00:21:03.080] It's Eve, right?
[00:21:03.080 --> 00:21:03.480] Yeah.
[00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:06.280] Eve, it's not Adam who makes the first move.
[00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:12.760] That may be the first really consequential choice in the Western tradition.
[00:21:12.760 --> 00:21:16.080] I call her an audacious autodidact.
[00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:17.360] She's my hero.
[00:21:17.360 --> 00:21:18.640] I love it that she did that.
[00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:20.400] She's just curious.
[00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:21.440] She wants to know.
[00:21:21.760 --> 00:21:24.720] But in biblical terms, at least historically, right?
[00:21:25.520 --> 00:21:27.920] This is not something to praise.
[00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:34.080] No, I mean, she brings a lot on her and onto the world when she takes that bite of the apple, right?
[00:21:35.360 --> 00:21:35.920] Yes.
[00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:37.200] And so I'm interested.
[00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:57.680] One of the things that interested me was the way in which choice seems so fundamental today to what we do, but has often been problematic for people from the Bible onwards, and especially in modern times, we still sometimes regret our choices, make choice.
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[00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:30.560] This is where the consequences aren't what we thought they were going to be.
[00:22:30.800 --> 00:22:35.760] Get blamed for choices that we've made when we didn't have very good options to begin with.
[00:22:35.760 --> 00:22:38.800] It's not like choice is smooth sailing today either.
[00:22:38.800 --> 00:22:39.440] Yeah.
[00:22:40.080 --> 00:22:45.120] Well, I was just also thinking about all the different restrictions on choice we have.
[00:22:45.120 --> 00:22:50.560] I mean, just say self, family, church, state, so on.
[00:22:50.560 --> 00:22:52.880] I mean, I can't choose to be in the NBA.
[00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:54.240] You know, I'm only 5'7.
[00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:54.640] Okay.
[00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:58.320] I mean, there's genetic restrictions on choice.
[00:22:58.320 --> 00:22:59.680] There's financial restrictions.
[00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:05.960] I mean, I'm comfortable, but I couldn't afford a private plane, right?
[00:22:59.840 --> 00:23:07.480] You know, a Learjet or something.
[00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:11.640] So I don't really have much choice in transportation between these cars and those cars.
[00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:12.440] That's my window.
[00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:12.760] Right.
[00:23:12.760 --> 00:23:14.920] So, I mean, we're restricted by all sorts of things.
[00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:18.280] I'm not free to drive on any side of the road I want.
[00:23:18.280 --> 00:23:18.760] Right.
[00:23:19.080 --> 00:23:29.240] So, I mean, we don't really think of those as restrictions on freedom, but in fact, they're purposeful restrictions that makes us, I don't know what, more secure or free in a different way.
[00:23:30.040 --> 00:23:33.960] We think of freedom of choice and choice as almost identical, right?
[00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:39.640] When we talk about freedom of choice in all kinds of different domains, but all choices, as you say, are bounded.
[00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:43.800] They're bounded by real laws, like you can't drive on the wrong side of the road.
[00:23:43.800 --> 00:23:50.760] They're bounded by sort of social laws, which are informal laws, but things we conventionally agree to.
[00:23:51.320 --> 00:23:55.480] You don't, you know, yell obscenities at people randomly walking down the street, that kind of thing.
[00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:57.480] You don't try out the fruit in a grocery store.
[00:23:57.480 --> 00:23:59.880] I mean, there are lots of things you just don't do.
[00:24:00.840 --> 00:24:15.720] And they're bound by a lot of things beyond our preferences, our sense of obligation, our financial situations, pressure from other people, including family members, traditions, politics.
[00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:31.960] Our choices are only free insofar as sometimes there's an set of options created by somebody else that we can sometimes try to access our preferences and use those to make determinations.
[00:24:31.960 --> 00:24:38.360] But it's hardly the case that we ever make choices that are simply open-ended.
[00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:41.240] In some ways, you might say that's bad.
[00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:57.280] In some ways, you might say that's good, because without some restrictions, say that traffic situation, if you had total freedom to drive anywhere you wanted, anytime on any side of the road and go through any intersection any way you wanted, no one could drive because it would be chaos.
[00:24:57.280 --> 00:25:04.400] So some of the rules are to make choice possible, to make it possible for you to decide do you want to turn left or right.
[00:25:05.040 --> 00:25:06.240] Yeah, exactly.
[00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:06.960] You wouldn't have those.
[00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:09.840] Well, that's the whole AI self-driving car thing.
[00:25:10.800 --> 00:25:16.160] It's mainly about restricting what they can do because otherwise it would just be chaos.
[00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:16.640] Yeah.
[00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:19.200] And that's why we're scared of them, partly, right?
[00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:19.760] Yeah, that's right.
[00:25:20.560 --> 00:25:25.360] They really are going to, are they going to be able to make every choice in a sound way?
[00:25:25.360 --> 00:25:26.560] I don't know.
[00:25:26.560 --> 00:25:31.360] Well, then there's all those scenarios, the kind of game theory scenarios like the trolley problem.
[00:25:31.360 --> 00:25:37.040] You know, do you run over the guy in the sidewalk or do you swerve the car and you hit the five kids on the over?
[00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:39.920] The choice you hope you never have to make, exactly.
[00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:45.920] How about extra braking systems, backup braking systems to avoid that?
[00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:50.560] That always bothered me about the trolley problem: you're not allowed to yell, get up, there's a trolley coming.
[00:25:50.560 --> 00:25:52.800] Like, how about some other alternatives?
[00:25:52.800 --> 00:25:53.040] Right.
[00:25:53.040 --> 00:25:54.880] Can we please have some better options here?
[00:25:55.520 --> 00:25:59.040] Okay, Christopher Koch and his invention of shopping.
[00:25:59.040 --> 00:26:05.280] So, this is one of your, I guess, primary causes where we begin to think differently about choices.
[00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:12.320] Yeah, so I start with this figure who's completely obscure today, but I thought he was kind of fascinating.
[00:26:12.320 --> 00:26:19.440] He's an auctioneer, and he lives in London in the 1710s, 20s, 30s.
[00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:22.080] And he's kind of got an entrepreneurial mindset.
[00:26:22.080 --> 00:26:24.000] And auctions aren't a really new form.
[00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:28.000] They're auctions going back to antiquity, and they are a lot like auctions today.
[00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:34.280] But he has this idea: what if he kind of turns the auction into an event?
[00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:36.680] And people will come for a kind of entertainment.
[00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:41.080] And the auction's going to involve selling somebody else's old stuff.
[00:26:41.080 --> 00:26:48.840] It might be their books, it might be their paintings, but it might be their household stuff, all their furniture, their dishes.
[00:26:48.840 --> 00:26:51.880] But he's going to set up days where you come look.
[00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:55.160] And then he's going to let you browse, which is a new phenomenon.
[00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:58.680] It strikes us as odd, but markets didn't let you browse like this.
[00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:00.680] But you could come and look at all the stuff.
[00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:05.000] Then you go home again, and there's a little catalog that describes all the material.
[00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:11.240] And then you'd come back and sort of compete to get what you wanted in this opportunity.
[00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:19.640] And he often advertised these as both an opportunity for choice, choice in fine China, for instance.
[00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:28.440] And he insisted that his own goods were what he called choice goods, meaning already preselected for being fabulous.
[00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:35.800] And his auctions took off, and that we know about them because the catalogs still exist in libraries and archives.
[00:27:35.800 --> 00:27:39.480] And you can go through them and see what he sold under what terms.
[00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:42.360] And sometimes people have even notated things on the side.
[00:27:42.360 --> 00:27:45.080] But I decided that he was an interesting figure.
[00:27:45.080 --> 00:27:48.520] He was kind of famous in his day, obscure now.
[00:27:48.840 --> 00:28:00.840] But he knew how to harness this idea that sounds very modern of choice to sell stuff, to say, I have great variety, and you can come in and get what you want.
[00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:03.720] Women and men both flocked to his auctions.
[00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:05.720] He was painted at the time.
[00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:18.480] And I start with him because I think, not because I think he alone invents this modern notion of choice, that would be a preposterous claim, but because I think he's sort of emblematic of a shift that's happening in commercial culture.
[00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:36.400] And he's one of the people helping run this that is towards letting people look at all this displayed goods and have the fun of selecting, as opposed to just say going to a market in a stall and saying, I need a chicken, and the chicken gets handed to you, you pay for it.
[00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:40.080] But that's not really the same thing as what we call shopping.
[00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:40.720] Right.
[00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:46.080] Of course, psychologically, this gets you to perhaps buy other things you didn't know you needed.
[00:28:46.080 --> 00:28:52.320] So this is like an anticipation of the algorithms on Netflix and YouTube and Amazon and stuff.
[00:28:52.320 --> 00:28:56.960] If you like this, I do like that because I get a lot of books.
[00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:01.040] So I'll buy a book and then a whole bunch of other books that are related to that pop up.
[00:29:01.040 --> 00:29:03.120] I go, yeah, I do want to read that book.
[00:29:03.760 --> 00:29:04.320] Absolutely.
[00:29:04.320 --> 00:29:05.760] He organized the materials.
[00:29:05.760 --> 00:29:06.880] He displayed them.
[00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:12.960] He described everything as rare, unique, distinctive, unusual.
[00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:15.600] I mean, he was really a marketer.
[00:29:15.600 --> 00:29:23.040] And I'm sort of fascinated by the idea that he almost invented the field of marketing using many of the terms.
[00:29:23.040 --> 00:29:25.840] It sounds a little out of date, but not entirely.
[00:29:25.840 --> 00:29:37.760] He sounds a little like every billboard you see driving around town when you see, like, you know, choice banking and, you know, make the smart choice, make the right choice, come investigate our auctions.
[00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:40.160] Sounds like, you know, Christopher Collins.
[00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:41.840] Well, like the airline auction year.
[00:29:41.840 --> 00:29:45.040] At the airlines, when you land, we know you had a choice in carriers.
[00:29:45.280 --> 00:29:46.880] Thank you for choosing ours, right?
[00:29:47.040 --> 00:29:49.040] When did he live again and where?
[00:29:49.040 --> 00:29:57.680] So, in the early 18th century in London, he's active in the sort of 1710s onwards, first half of the century.
[00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:08.840] The word shopping doesn't exist yet, and there aren't that many stores yet, sort of fixed location places that display goods, as opposed to markets or people who come to your house and sell you something.
[00:30:08.840 --> 00:30:17.720] Shops really grow later in the century, but auctions, I think, invent some of the marketing techniques a little in advance of shops themselves.
[00:30:18.360 --> 00:30:25.160] Can you give us an idea more broadly of what life was like in 1700s, say, London or New York?
[00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:34.840] Like, how many choices did they have in careers, jobs, or food items, or clothing items, or any kind of daily stuff?
[00:30:34.840 --> 00:30:36.280] Well, of course, it depends a lot.
[00:30:36.280 --> 00:30:37.640] Were you male or female?
[00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:38.920] Were you white or black?
[00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:41.720] Were you wealthy or poor?
[00:30:42.040 --> 00:30:48.040] Certainly, the wealthy had a certain degree of choice in goods that other people didn't have.
[00:30:48.040 --> 00:30:54.440] They could collect paintings, for instance, if they were very wealthy, but they wouldn't go into a gallery to look at them.
[00:30:54.440 --> 00:30:58.200] They would have sort of special viewings for themselves.
[00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:08.840] What interests me is the sort of mainstreaming of choice that starts to happen incrementally.
[00:31:08.840 --> 00:31:18.040] I think in the 18th century, you can start to see shopping streets, for instance, emerge in London, then in Amsterdam, in Paris.
[00:31:18.040 --> 00:31:19.640] Eventually, they come to the New World.
[00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:27.560] I live in Philadelphia, and Philadelphia had some of the finest shops of the 18th century, though it was still a tiny town.
[00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:31.800] You know, 30,000 people lived in Philadelphia before the American Revolution.
[00:31:31.800 --> 00:31:32.920] That's pretty small.
[00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:41.720] But there were shops, and they started to have, even for people who couldn't afford what was inside, increasingly they had glass fronts.
[00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:54.240] I think that's kind of important because you walked down the street and the goods were displayed in the window in an era before electricity, but you could see what was available, and they'd sometimes each be in a separate pane.
[00:31:54.240 --> 00:32:02.400] And it offered up a kind of set of possibilities that I would call almost a menu.
[00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:07.920] And you start to see other sort of places where those kinds of possibilities emerge.
[00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:12.320] By the 19th century, for instance, you can go to public dances in big cities.
[00:32:12.320 --> 00:32:20.960] You could do that as far afield as places like Santiago and Chile and into parts of Germany.
[00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:23.280] And you could choose somebody to dance with.
[00:32:23.280 --> 00:32:24.960] Now, there were a thousand rules.
[00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:26.880] You couldn't just walk up to a stranger.
[00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:31.520] You couldn't, it wasn't like it was just unconstrained choice again.
[00:32:31.520 --> 00:32:43.680] But still, the possibility of asking someone to dance in a setting that wasn't a private ballroom, that wasn't just for the extreme elites, became a new phenomenon.
[00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:50.800] So I look for all these little moments when ordinary people kind of start to do things that we do all the time.
[00:32:50.800 --> 00:32:54.960] Every time you order a sandwich, you're picking something off a menu of options.
[00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:59.440] But this was new to people in earlier moments.
[00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:02.240] And you kind of look for those places.
[00:33:02.560 --> 00:33:03.840] Yeah, right.
[00:33:03.840 --> 00:33:05.040] So interesting there.
[00:33:05.040 --> 00:33:06.560] It just comes to mind.
[00:33:06.800 --> 00:33:11.520] Charles Darwin, this is 1820s when he got out of college.
[00:33:11.520 --> 00:33:17.120] Basically, his choice was: do you want to be a physician or a theologian?
[00:33:17.120 --> 00:33:18.080] Because that's it.
[00:33:18.080 --> 00:33:22.400] That's what upper-class landed gentlemen do, right?
[00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:24.160] Well, I want to be a naturalist.
[00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:25.120] It's like, what's that?
[00:33:25.120 --> 00:33:26.720] You can't do that.
[00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:31.160] The other thing is, of course, in their studies, they didn't have choice the way we do today.
[00:33:31.320 --> 00:33:39.480] So, if you go to college, most places, whether it's community college or some research university, you look at a course catalog, catalog.
[00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:49.400] Sometimes it's called shopping period, and you pick out the courses that interest you because that's the direction you probably want to go professionally.
[00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:55.000] And that, too, is a you start to have things called electives.
[00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:58.520] Note the term election, electives, options.
[00:33:58.840 --> 00:34:05.800] By the late 19th century, Harvard's president at the time is famous for deciding that there should be elective courses.
[00:34:05.800 --> 00:34:07.960] It was a very radical idea.
[00:34:09.720 --> 00:34:17.960] But now that's a common place of education after about high school, even by the end of high school, that you have some selection in what you do.
[00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:22.040] So that goes with the idea that you will be also picking a career.
[00:34:22.040 --> 00:34:30.680] Now, all that sounds wonderful, except that it can be a burden too, to have to decide what do you want to make of your life and how and where you're going to do this.
[00:34:31.640 --> 00:34:44.440] We also put an awful lot of pressure on the individual to make good decisions at every stage that will lead to more good decisions so that they can craft their own future.
[00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:48.680] And we say about people they made bad choices when things don't work out well.
[00:34:49.000 --> 00:35:00.680] So, if you went to Harvard in the 1800s, once you chose which profession you wanted to go into, medicine or law or whatever, then the course outline curriculum was fixed.
[00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:02.920] You just everybody takes these set of courses.
[00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:03.800] That's it.
[00:35:04.120 --> 00:35:06.360] And, you know, everybody read certain books.
[00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:08.120] I mean, there were kind of classic books.
[00:35:08.120 --> 00:35:10.120] Everybody read Cicero in the 18th century.
[00:35:10.120 --> 00:35:15.360] In the 19th century, education was more specialized, but still there's a set curriculum.
[00:35:14.680 --> 00:35:21.760] This idea of picking what appeals to you is quite modern.
[00:35:22.080 --> 00:35:23.040] Yes, amazing.
[00:35:23.040 --> 00:35:30.480] Yeah, the Founding Fathers, they all read basically the same ancient Greek and Roman philosophers and classic writers and all that.
[00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:31.360] They did.
[00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:32.480] Yeah, interesting.
[00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:33.040] Okay.
[00:35:33.600 --> 00:35:35.280] I also like your discussion of religion.
[00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:41.520] I mean, we think of, you know, in America, there's like 10,000 different churches you could choose from, a menu.
[00:35:42.640 --> 00:35:46.560] But before the Protestant Reformation, it's just pretty much everyone in Europe was Catholic.
[00:35:46.560 --> 00:35:47.520] That was it.
[00:35:47.520 --> 00:35:47.920] Right.
[00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:52.080] There were some Jews, but they'd been exiled to very specific parts of Europe.
[00:35:52.080 --> 00:35:57.040] And if you were some, you know, you kept quiet, otherwise, if you had heterodox beliefs.
[00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:06.800] This part of the story, I think, the New World, which is to say what were the North American colonies, is one of the origin points more than something that came from Europe.
[00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:24.080] Already in Europe, there was, of course, by the 17th, 18th century, both Protestant strands of Christianity and Roman Catholic ones coexisted, often uncomfortably, but across different parts of the some of Germany was one, some was the other.
[00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:39.840] But the idea that all of multiple religions could coexist and people might have options, again, not just in what they believed, but even as specific as which church to join, was a pretty late development.
[00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:53.640] And Philadelphia, again, speaking of, again, it's a city that's both important and my current hometown, was a place where travelers in the 18th century record going to churches the way today.
[00:36:53.640 --> 00:36:56.640] You might have a guidebook and say, oh, I want to see that museum.
[00:36:56.640 --> 00:36:58.880] I want to visit this tourist destination.
[00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:08.440] The fact you could hear preachers from all kinds of different denominations was a kind of appealing activity.
[00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:17.880] And so, you have people who'd say, Well, I'm a Baptist, but I heard a wonderful sermon down the street at the Methodist church.
[00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:24.280] Or this preacher came to a field near where I live, and he was really marvelous, and he was something else.
[00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:26.280] It's a new light Baptist.
[00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:35.400] And that, I'm not suggesting that people picked ribbons in the same way they picked religions.
[00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:40.040] I mean, people make different kinds of value judgments about what they were doing.
[00:37:40.040 --> 00:37:56.200] But the idea, nevertheless, there's a certain kind of parallelism in the idea that you got to define yourself to a certain degree by making this series of choices.
[00:37:56.200 --> 00:37:59.960] And part of, and some of that was about religion.
[00:37:59.960 --> 00:38:05.080] As today, most people followed the faith that their parents had.
[00:38:05.960 --> 00:38:09.960] That said, there were church options within that faith.
[00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:17.960] Many people switched to kinds of evangelical Christianity in this period and left behind kind of more settled European traditions.
[00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:28.520] So I see something interesting and similar happening increasingly by the early 19th century, but as early as the 18th century.
[00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:32.520] And I think you made reference to the Baptists and Anabaptists, right?
[00:38:32.520 --> 00:38:33.880] And I guess that depends.
[00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:39.240] I think it's the Anabaptist, you should be baptized as an adult, and the other one was as an infant.
[00:38:39.560 --> 00:38:40.680] Did they really think?
[00:38:40.680 --> 00:38:42.760] I mean, did they take that literally?
[00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:48.720] Like, one of them is right and the other one is wrong, or is it just more of a subjective preference?
[00:38:49.040 --> 00:38:57.840] So, so, what made, I mean, the reason that Anabaptists get called that has to do with, and it's an this happens just after the Reformation.
[00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:05.200] So, this is before we're talking about Philadelphia as a city in the 18th century.
[00:39:05.520 --> 00:39:22.960] The idea that's prominent in a lot of strains of Protestantism, as it comes to be known after the Reformation, is the idea that freedom of conscience matters, that one shouldn't just believe things because they're told, that the conscience itself has to accept certain ideas.
[00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:25.280] Now, there were right ideas and wrong ideas.
[00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:34.640] Nevertheless, the idea that you choose your religion consciously becomes an important part of mainstream Protestant thought.
[00:39:34.640 --> 00:39:40.240] And baptism is interesting because baptism is usually the precursor to this other phase.
[00:39:40.240 --> 00:39:49.120] But the Anabaptists believe that you shouldn't even be baptized till you've consciously chosen to be the religion in question.
[00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:55.680] And it's really around that practice that the Anabaptists distinguish themselves.
[00:39:55.680 --> 00:40:07.120] It makes them very heretical in the ideas of much of Christianity because they are unbaptized people from all their childhoods.
[00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:19.520] But it does help, I think, encourage this idea that being a full-fledged person is partly about getting to define.
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[00:40:52.920 --> 00:41:07.400] What you think, what you like, what you believe, who you want to be in ways that are very particular to what comes to be kind of Western liberal capitalist tradition.
[00:41:08.040 --> 00:41:15.160] So, something like the resurrection of Jesus as atonement for my original sin.
[00:41:15.160 --> 00:41:19.480] You know, maybe it used to be, you said, well, I'm a Catholic or whatever, and that's what we believe.
[00:41:19.480 --> 00:41:23.640] And if you're Jewish, you go, well, I'm Jewish and we don't think Jesus was the Messiah.
[00:41:23.640 --> 00:41:25.880] So that's just the way it is.
[00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:34.920] To a transition to, no, I actually thought this through, I've read the arguments, and this is what I think is correct about the universe or nature or whatever, reality.
[00:41:35.240 --> 00:41:36.680] I mean, it's more than that.
[00:41:36.680 --> 00:41:43.640] It's really the suggestion, it isn't essential to me that you believe the same thing as me.
[00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:44.360] Right?
[00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:51.400] So, in other words, to be able to say, my neighbor is a Baptist, I'm not.
[00:41:51.400 --> 00:42:01.400] I'm Jewish or I'm Catholic or something else, is to suggest that their ideas are their business, a kind of privatization of the sphere of ideas.
[00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:07.720] The same way, if I don't care how you decorated your house, it's kind of your business.
[00:42:07.720 --> 00:42:10.360] I think that is the end effect.
[00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:24.000] You can't really have the privatization of religion, you know, the separation of church and state, even, until there's some sense that other people's beliefs don't impinge on me.
[00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:27.280] Your salvation doesn't depend on mine.
[00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:28.400] Right.
[00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:37.360] So, before that, though, there was that more collective social good or our tribe or whatever, unity of the polity.
[00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:39.680] And we all have to believe the same thing.
[00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:44.000] For purposes of salvation, I mean, it wasn't a small matter.
[00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:49.920] You know, they endangered heretics and people with heterodox views.
[00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:52.720] Jews sometimes endangered other people.
[00:42:52.720 --> 00:42:56.800] Was the, you know, they believed the wrong things.
[00:42:57.120 --> 00:43:06.400] You have to actually be able to separate yourself from the other in this very particular way, where belief is a personal matter.
[00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:17.040] And that's at the origins partly of this idea of choice, that you don't pick the right or the wrong way as much as you pick what works for you.
[00:43:17.040 --> 00:43:22.800] And each of us is free to make that determination.
[00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:35.440] Even in politics, again, less about that we all collectively agreed on something than that we each got to pick what we liked and then the lucky prevail numerically over the unlucky.
[00:43:36.240 --> 00:43:45.680] So the First Amendment's protection of individual rights of religion, of the media and press, of protesting, and so on.
[00:43:45.680 --> 00:43:47.680] These are all, never thought of it this way.
[00:43:47.680 --> 00:43:51.680] It's a way of saying the government's not going to make these decisions for you.
[00:43:51.680 --> 00:43:52.880] You do it.
[00:43:53.520 --> 00:43:54.240] Exactly.
[00:43:54.240 --> 00:43:56.800] And that's why some people are surprised that they're together.
[00:43:56.800 --> 00:43:57.440] You know, why?
[00:43:57.440 --> 00:44:02.360] Religion, the press, the right to associate, and speech?
[00:43:59.600 --> 00:44:05.640] That don't, to us, that's a little bit of a weird grouping.
[00:44:05.640 --> 00:44:05.960] Yeah.
[00:44:05.960 --> 00:44:16.040] But I don't think it was weird at all for the people who wrote the Constitution who saw these as about the kind of autonomy of the self.
[00:44:16.040 --> 00:44:30.120] That people must be free in public life, in their private life, to be free of government interference in what they believed, what they professed, what they read, and how they worshipped, and who they associated with.
[00:44:30.440 --> 00:44:36.840] Do you think they were consciously aware of the way you're configuring it here as we're expanding choice?
[00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:39.160] Or is it motivated by something else?
[00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:45.720] I don't think they would have thought in terms of choice, and that's why it's not the word that gets used very much in this period.
[00:44:45.720 --> 00:44:51.800] You see it in places like my auctioneer, but you don't see it as much in politics.
[00:44:52.120 --> 00:45:07.960] But I think the configuration that you just pointed to, for instance, of the First Amendment is an essential kind of precursor to the development of the, I would call it, ideology of choice or faith in choice that emerges later.
[00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:23.960] We couldn't have this kind of stake in choice's freedom, human rights part, for instance, without this first recognition of the possibility of autonomy in these areas.
[00:45:24.600 --> 00:45:25.560] Right.
[00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:27.800] All right, let's talk about back to dating.
[00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:31.640] I loved your discussion of the ballroom dance cards.
[00:45:31.640 --> 00:45:34.360] I guess it's sort of the match.com of that era.
[00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:37.080] Absolutely.
[00:45:37.720 --> 00:45:41.240] So the ball cards, yeah, not a thing people use a lot today.
[00:45:41.480 --> 00:45:48.000] But I was interested because I thought, well, they're a little bit like, again, a ballot or something.
[00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:58.800] You have this card, you go to a ball, and the woman carries the card because, again, she can be chosen, but she can't really make all the choices herself.
[00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:05.040] And the ball card allows different men to come up to her and inscribe their name for a particular dance.
[00:46:05.040 --> 00:46:09.680] And she carries the card around and it helps her remember who's chosen her for each moment.
[00:46:09.680 --> 00:46:12.240] But it's also part of a ritual around choice.
[00:46:12.240 --> 00:46:14.320] It's a way to connect.
[00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:19.120] And you might think, what does that possibly have to do with politics or anything else?
[00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:29.120] But I see it as one more place in which rules are being created for increasing choice in a new sphere.
[00:46:29.120 --> 00:46:43.280] In this case, the romantic sphere, the sexual sphere, it's a precursor, the ball is a precursor often to, there's no dating before the 20th century, so courtship, you might say, and eventually to marriage.
[00:46:44.080 --> 00:46:58.160] So sort of the idea of sort of choice that will lead to sexual and romantic unions is kind of implicit in the dance card and all the etiquette that goes with it.
[00:46:58.160 --> 00:47:13.920] If you've ever read any Jane Austen novels again, you'll know that ball scenes are filled with both rules and small ways of breaking them to convey certain ideas and to kind of get around all the restrictions.
[00:47:14.240 --> 00:47:14.800] Yeah.
[00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:20.000] And was it always the women doing the choosing among the suitors?
[00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:24.000] So, in the case of the ball, men chose.
[00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:29.400] Women had some limited ability to consent or not consent.
[00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:36.360] If they said no, they had to say they were very tired and go sit down again and not pick somebody, not let somebody else pick them too quickly.
[00:47:36.680 --> 00:47:40.040] Men couldn't pick the same woman too many times in a row.
[00:47:40.040 --> 00:47:41.960] I mean, there are lots of rules.
[00:47:41.960 --> 00:47:47.800] In this case, men have most of the power.
[00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:54.200] To this day, we still tend to assume that men are going to, for instance, ask women to marry them.
[00:47:54.920 --> 00:48:03.000] You know, the man proposes, he makes a choice, and the woman consents or doesn't consent to that ask.
[00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:05.880] That really comes out of the behavior of ballrooms.
[00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:16.440] And it comes out of early, much earlier marriage practices where women have the power of consent, but they don't really have full choice.
[00:48:18.520 --> 00:48:27.800] So, the purpose of the ballroom meetings was to then select somebody you would go out with again in some other context?
[00:48:28.120 --> 00:48:29.240] Generally, no.
[00:48:29.640 --> 00:48:39.720] It was a chance for two people to be the equivalent of alone and to have some physical contact with each other, which was otherwise pretty much impossible to imagine.
[00:48:39.720 --> 00:48:49.480] But a trip around the dance floor was a kind of, you know, things could go very wrong from there, or it could be the beginning of something.
[00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:54.680] Earlier dance forms, again, tended to be more collective.
[00:48:54.680 --> 00:48:57.320] You pass through partners many more times.
[00:48:57.320 --> 00:49:05.240] You just kept, if you think of something like a square dance, everybody's constantly swapping partners, and it's much more like a collective activity.
[00:49:05.240 --> 00:49:07.880] It's not something you do with a partner.
[00:49:07.880 --> 00:49:20.000] But with something like waltzing, which becomes fashionable in the 19th century, waltzing involves two people in a pretty intimate embrace taking a kind of private trip around the dance floor together.
[00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:22.320] And then it ends, and there's more decorum.
[00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:26.000] You know, this is not an era in which you'd say, Hey, do you want to go on a date on Saturday night?
[00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:26.960] That was fun.
[00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:31.360] This is this would be something much more formalized than that.
[00:49:31.360 --> 00:49:40.240] But it still introduces a new possibility there, this kind of selecting a person to be alone with for a small amount of time.
[00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:41.760] Right.
[00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:45.920] It just reminded me of speed dating, which is a fairly recent thing.
[00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:50.960] But, you know, just five minutes with a dozen different people, and then at the end of the night, you go, Yeah, I like that one.
[00:49:51.040 --> 00:49:59.120] The idea being that we have a fairly good intuition about who we want to get to know better or not within the first five minutes.
[00:49:59.120 --> 00:50:01.840] You don't have to spend six hours on a date and hundreds of dollars.
[00:50:02.160 --> 00:50:03.600] You pretty much know.
[00:50:04.240 --> 00:50:12.800] I mean, this, of course, it looks like today we have the ultimate sort of marketplace in things like Tinder for dating as for everything else.
[00:50:13.200 --> 00:50:19.040] Almost everything, you can find some online way to turn it into something that looks like a shopping mall.
[00:50:19.680 --> 00:50:23.680] Shop for men the same way for women, the same way you can shop for sneakers.
[00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:40.640] That said, around the time of the French Revolution, when the first laws saying fathers didn't have to give permission for couples to marry, the sort of growth of independent choice, there was a lot of discussion of, well, how are these people going to find each other?
[00:50:40.640 --> 00:50:42.480] Who's going to find the right person?
[00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:48.480] And there's, you can find ads in the newspaper where people say, looking for a wife must know how to do the following things.
[00:50:48.800 --> 00:51:05.320] Or, you know, it's sort of, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it doesn't, we can laugh, but the logic is not that different than the logic of online dating or speed dating, which is to say, how do you, how do you find the compatible person in this big marketplace where people don't all know each other?
[00:51:06.600 --> 00:51:07.800] You need some mechanisms.
[00:51:07.800 --> 00:51:16.520] It could be a newspaper, it could be a dance hall, it could be an online site, but they're working to the same purpose.
[00:51:16.840 --> 00:51:17.560] Right.
[00:51:17.560 --> 00:51:23.160] So it's the size of the database from which you have to choose with modern dating sites.
[00:51:23.160 --> 00:51:25.240] There's millions of people you could choose from.
[00:51:25.240 --> 00:51:32.440] But in a small community somewhere like, I don't know 18th century Philadelphia, the options are going to be pretty limited.
[00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:33.320] Right.
[00:51:33.320 --> 00:51:33.720] Yeah.
[00:51:33.720 --> 00:51:40.360] No, you're, I mean, if you think of village life traditionally, you know all the options.
[00:51:40.360 --> 00:51:48.120] So the idea of people arranging who should pair off with whom, mainly for economic reasons, is an entirely sound one.
[00:51:48.680 --> 00:52:05.320] If you go to a city, even if you're, say, a servant who has very few resources but shows up in Paris in the 18th or 19th century, you might know a few people from your village, but there are hundreds of people out there that don't know you and you don't know them.
[00:52:05.320 --> 00:52:08.280] How are you ever going to figure out who's who?
[00:52:08.920 --> 00:52:10.840] What will be the places?
[00:52:10.840 --> 00:52:17.800] And without a lot of, you know, schools sometimes work that function now, jobs.
[00:52:18.120 --> 00:52:22.360] But those aren't necessarily possibilities, you know, for many people.
[00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:38.040] And so the question of how to meet somebody is an important one, especially if you think that economic stability depends upon forming a unit and having children, creating a household.
[00:52:38.360 --> 00:52:39.240] Right.
[00:52:39.560 --> 00:52:48.480] And then in this trend, let's make a distinction between finding romantic partners or marriage partners and just sexual partners.
[00:52:48.480 --> 00:52:50.720] I mean, today it's like, you know, friends with benefits.
[00:52:44.840 --> 00:52:51.280] Yeah, okay.
[00:52:51.600 --> 00:52:53.280] You know, that's an option.
[00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:54.800] But that's fairly new, right?
[00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:58.160] Well, there were always, there's always been prostitution.
[00:52:58.560 --> 00:53:06.240] And some certain kinds of dance halls definitely were set up for, you know, making a choice for the evening, not a choice forever.
[00:53:06.720 --> 00:53:20.160] They weren't respectable, but prostitution certainly always worked on the theory that for men, almost exclusively, there was choice in this realm.
[00:53:20.160 --> 00:53:35.280] And 19th-century novels often have, including ones in cities, if you read Balzac or something, they're filled with sometimes just sort of street prostitutes and sometimes celebrated actresses who have affairs with lots of people.
[00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:43.520] It didn't preclude marriage too, but it was sort of choice on the side once you'd made the choice to give up other choices.
[00:53:43.520 --> 00:53:47.280] For women, it meant largely giving up other choices once you got married.
[00:53:47.280 --> 00:53:51.840] For men, maybe formally, but informally.
[00:53:52.160 --> 00:54:01.840] You know, there's a reason that many of the great paintings and operas and things of the 19th century are about fallen women, we might say.
[00:54:02.160 --> 00:54:03.840] Fallen women.
[00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:06.720] But the men are not fallen.
[00:54:06.720 --> 00:54:07.920] No, they're not fallen.
[00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:08.800] Exactly.
[00:54:09.120 --> 00:54:16.800] Well, there's probably the evolutionary psychologist can explain that for us based on who's doing the choosing and why.
[00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:21.040] I mean, women are more risk-averse and they have to be choosier than men.
[00:54:21.600 --> 00:54:31.720] Well, that's that's that's certainly, and that may be, you know, one good explanation for as to why that's no longer necessarily the case obviously has to do with the rise of birth control.
[00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:31.880] Yeah.
[00:54:32.120 --> 00:54:44.760] You know, women suffered all the consequences in a world in which women got pregnant, and if they were pregnant and left or unsupported, their options were very few.
[00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:48.760] It was catastrophic for most cases, even for a woman who's say a servant somewhere.
[00:54:48.920 --> 00:54:52.360] That's the end of her livelihood and with no support for the child.
[00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:58.280] And that's how people ended up as prostitutes in the first place because they really ran out of options in many cases.
[00:54:58.280 --> 00:55:02.440] Birth control created the possibility of choice in a new way.
[00:55:02.440 --> 00:55:25.640] And one reason we talk about abortion in relation to the term choice is partly about this idea: not only should there be choice as to what you do if you're fine to pregnant, but also the idea of women's autonomy depends on having to have choices available that would give them a kind of equal standing to men in the world.
[00:55:26.920 --> 00:55:34.120] Yeah, it reminds me of that case last month of Lily Phillips, that British woman that slept with 100 guys in one day.
[00:55:34.120 --> 00:55:36.920] And she was kind of, oh, you don't know this story?
[00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:46.200] Oh, well, it's sort of a byproduct of OnlyFans, in which you can go online and do the cam girl stuff.
[00:55:46.200 --> 00:55:48.040] And some of these women make a lot of money.
[00:55:48.040 --> 00:55:51.800] I mean, I'm talking $50,000 to $100,000 a month.
[00:55:53.480 --> 00:55:57.880] But then now there's kind of a competition to see who can outdo the other one.
[00:55:57.880 --> 00:56:03.880] And so this one woman slept with like 100 guys in 24 hours, and some other women said, well, I'm going to do more than that.
[00:56:04.360 --> 00:56:08.120] And they were kind of mobbed online as, you know, being sluts and so forth.
[00:56:08.120 --> 00:56:09.960] But, you know, there's guys that brag about this.
[00:56:10.280 --> 00:56:14.040] My body counts, you know, a hundred or a two hundred or 1,000.
[00:56:14.040 --> 00:56:17.920] And they're not mobbed as sluts or whatever.
[00:56:18.560 --> 00:56:27.360] I mean, this is where why I say in every case that choice is never unlimited, and it's never without certain kinds of value judgments.
[00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:38.080] So women have choice in sexual partners that's much greater than their mothers, grandmothers, you know, and anybody before that, to a certain extent.
[00:56:38.080 --> 00:56:42.000] And again, not everywhere in the world and not in every subculture.
[00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:44.560] So this is a very important distinction.
[00:56:44.560 --> 00:56:58.400] But in certain parts of the world, in certain groups of people, that said, women's choices are always more suspect.
[00:56:58.400 --> 00:57:00.480] And that's partly what I'm interested in, too.
[00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:21.920] How we've sort of valorized choice, enabled choice, but are always a little squeamish about women's choices, that they're excessive, that they're just acting on whim and not on anything serious, that they don't know their own minds, that they are either too lascivious or not lascivious enough.
[00:57:21.920 --> 00:57:24.400] I mean, there are lots of possibilities there.
[00:57:24.720 --> 00:57:28.320] Well, and all these transitions really come about in our lifetime.
[00:57:28.320 --> 00:57:28.800] I mean, right?
[00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:30.800] The pills is 1961.
[00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:37.760] So, in terms of what you're talking about, the modern world doesn't even really begin for women, choice, doesn't even really begin till then.
[00:57:38.400 --> 00:57:52.000] So, there's, you know, by the late 19th century, what were then starting to be called feminists started for the first time to talk about choice, choice in education, for instance, choice in profession, and then the choice to be a mother or not.
[00:57:52.560 --> 00:57:55.840] Could some women choose to forego motherhood?
[00:57:55.840 --> 00:57:57.360] Very radical idea.
[00:57:57.360 --> 00:58:07.880] By the early 20th century, Margaret Sanger, for instance, is talking about birth control, and it's not the pill, and it's a lot less good than the pill.
[00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:16.200] But she uses the term choice: shouldn't women have choice whether they want to be pregnant or not, or sometimes even just when they want to get pregnant.
[00:58:16.200 --> 00:58:20.520] Even in a married couple, could you plan when?
[00:58:20.840 --> 00:58:26.920] Which was a whole, you know, seemed an extreme idea at the time.
[00:58:27.560 --> 00:58:28.760] Choice keeps going.
[00:58:28.760 --> 00:58:33.240] Then it's can you choose a female partner as well as a male partner, for instance?
[00:58:33.320 --> 00:58:37.000] Gay rights movement moves onto that terrain.
[00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:47.960] Abortion eventually, but certainly each of these new technologies, the pill being one of them, is important to the story.
[00:58:47.960 --> 00:59:01.880] And I don't think you would get the rhetoric of choice around abortion, which really starts in the 1970s, without first the women's liberation movement of the 1960s, of which the pill was a central piece.
[00:59:02.520 --> 00:59:08.200] So the whole feminist movement and female liberation is really choice.
[00:59:08.200 --> 00:59:09.560] You're back to that word.
[00:59:09.880 --> 00:59:11.080] A lot of it is.
[00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:13.400] Yeah.
[00:59:13.400 --> 00:59:16.840] I mean, it's not the only version of feminism that ever emerged.
[00:59:16.840 --> 00:59:21.400] Versions of feminism, for instance, emerged in Soviet Russia that look different.
[00:59:21.720 --> 00:59:34.600] But in the sort of liberal capitalist tradition, feminism is both a product of our faith and choice and capitalizes it on in on it in various ways.
[00:59:34.600 --> 00:59:42.760] But it's hard to imagine mainstream feminism without the idea that women require the same kind of choices as men.
[00:59:42.760 --> 00:59:49.280] This was the argument of John Stuart Mill and Harriet Taylor, his partner, as early as the mid-19th century.
[00:59:49.280 --> 00:59:51.520] It was radical and shocking at the time.
[00:59:51.520 --> 00:59:58.640] But all they really said was: if choice is going to be so important, shouldn't women have some too?
[00:59:59.280 --> 01:00:04.640] And they argued for political choice, for instance, for women, a radical idea in its moment.
[01:00:04.640 --> 01:00:10.480] It took another, you know, for it to be universal about another hundred years.
[01:00:10.480 --> 01:00:16.000] But when was that vindication of the rights of women?
[01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:16.880] When was that?
[01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:21.440] Well, the vindication of the rights of women, which doesn't talk about choices, is 1848.
[01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:38.160] But Mill takes up this kind of new interest in choice and attaches it, as do some of the abolitionists, at almost the same moment, in the 1860s and 70s, to the idea of women too.
[01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:45.680] And by the time you're talking about suffrage movements in the late 19th century, some of which don't really come into effect.
[01:00:45.680 --> 01:00:49.920] France, for instance, women don't vote till the 1940s, but in the national elections.
[01:00:50.640 --> 01:00:58.720] But that period of time, many of the arguments are structured around the idea of women should have choice.
[01:00:58.720 --> 01:01:07.520] If they already have choice, say, in the sphere of marriage, why don't they have, or in consumer culture, why don't they have choice in the political sphere?
[01:01:08.480 --> 01:01:09.680] Yeah, back to where we started.
[01:01:09.680 --> 01:01:12.880] I mean, the idea of looking back to see how differently people thought.
[01:01:12.880 --> 01:01:17.680] It's unimaginable now that people had arguments that women shouldn't vote.
[01:01:17.680 --> 01:01:18.320] Really?
[01:01:18.320 --> 01:01:20.560] But what arguments?
[01:01:20.560 --> 01:01:22.800] I can't even conceive what they would be.
[01:01:22.800 --> 01:01:24.400] It's not even that long ago.
[01:01:24.400 --> 01:01:29.520] White women in America earned the white women citizens earned the vote in the U.S.
[01:01:29.680 --> 01:01:31.560] in 1919.
[01:01:31.560 --> 01:01:34.600] So just a little more than 100 years ago.
[01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:39.160] It was inconceivable for much of early American history.
[01:01:40.360 --> 01:01:45.480] Voting in the 18th century with the will of the people was not imagined as universal suffrage.
[01:01:45.480 --> 01:01:48.760] It was imagined as sort of suffrage for property.
[01:01:54.680 --> 01:02:00.520] Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.
[01:02:00.520 --> 01:02:05.480] With Cheap Caribbean's Budget Beach Finder, get every destination and every date.
[01:02:05.480 --> 01:02:06.600] All in one search.
[01:02:06.600 --> 01:02:13.000] Go to cheapcaribbean.com and try the Budget Beach Finder and see how stress-free vacation planning should be.
[01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:15.960] Cheap Caribbean vacations.
[01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:18.680] Get more sen for your dollar.
[01:02:19.320 --> 01:02:22.520] White men, heads of households.
[01:02:22.520 --> 01:02:22.920] Yeah.
[01:02:23.240 --> 01:02:23.800] Yeah.
[01:02:24.120 --> 01:02:26.360] I had Naomi Areskis on the show.
[01:02:26.360 --> 01:02:27.480] She's a philosopher of science.
[01:02:28.600 --> 01:02:31.000] Why Trust Science, I think was the title of her book.
[01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:45.000] Anyway, she's got a chapter there on medical research in the 1890s at Harvard showing why women should not go to college because the blood from their brain is shunted to their uterus during every month.
[01:02:45.560 --> 01:02:50.440] And there were like peer-reviewed papers and like scientific evidence that this is it.
[01:02:50.440 --> 01:02:51.960] It's like, what?
[01:02:52.920 --> 01:03:03.880] I mean, this was usually, you know, race theory, too, in the 19th century showed all the sort of reasons, ostensibly biological, why black people, for instance, shouldn't be enfranchised.
[01:03:04.840 --> 01:03:19.600] Arguments, so it does remind you that even what's called science will often have all kinds of biases in it that are about what people believe in any given moment, not about some kind of pure abstract realm.
[01:03:19.920 --> 01:03:27.440] Absolutely, women, the biological arguments against women voting extend well into the 20th century.
[
Prompt 2: Key Takeaways
Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.
Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...".
Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive.
IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}
Prompt 3: Segments
Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.
For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion
IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.
Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
"segments": [
{
"segment_title": "Topic Discussion",
"timestamp": "01:15:30",
"key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
"segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
}
]
}
Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.
Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:
Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)
DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names
IMPORTANT:
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.
Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
"media_mentions": [
{
"title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
"category": "Book",
"author_artist": "N/A",
"context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
"context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
"timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
}
]
}
If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}
Prompt 5: Context Setup
You are an expert data extractor tasked with analyzing a podcast transcript.
I will provide you with part 2 of 2 from a podcast transcript.
I will then ask you to extract different types of information from this content in subsequent messages. Please confirm you have received and understood the transcript content.
Transcript section:
480 --> 01:01:48.760] It was imagined as sort of suffrage for property.
[01:01:54.680 --> 01:02:00.520] Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.
[01:02:00.520 --> 01:02:05.480] With Cheap Caribbean's Budget Beach Finder, get every destination and every date.
[01:02:05.480 --> 01:02:06.600] All in one search.
[01:02:06.600 --> 01:02:13.000] Go to cheapcaribbean.com and try the Budget Beach Finder and see how stress-free vacation planning should be.
[01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:15.960] Cheap Caribbean vacations.
[01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:18.680] Get more sen for your dollar.
[01:02:19.320 --> 01:02:22.520] White men, heads of households.
[01:02:22.520 --> 01:02:22.920] Yeah.
[01:02:23.240 --> 01:02:23.800] Yeah.
[01:02:24.120 --> 01:02:26.360] I had Naomi Areskis on the show.
[01:02:26.360 --> 01:02:27.480] She's a philosopher of science.
[01:02:28.600 --> 01:02:31.000] Why Trust Science, I think was the title of her book.
[01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:45.000] Anyway, she's got a chapter there on medical research in the 1890s at Harvard showing why women should not go to college because the blood from their brain is shunted to their uterus during every month.
[01:02:45.560 --> 01:02:50.440] And there were like peer-reviewed papers and like scientific evidence that this is it.
[01:02:50.440 --> 01:02:51.960] It's like, what?
[01:02:52.920 --> 01:03:03.880] I mean, this was usually, you know, race theory, too, in the 19th century showed all the sort of reasons, ostensibly biological, why black people, for instance, shouldn't be enfranchised.
[01:03:04.840 --> 01:03:19.600] Arguments, so it does remind you that even what's called science will often have all kinds of biases in it that are about what people believe in any given moment, not about some kind of pure abstract realm.
[01:03:19.920 --> 01:03:27.440] Absolutely, women, the biological arguments against women voting extend well into the 20th century.
[01:03:27.440 --> 01:03:36.080] They'd be too distracted, they don't know their minds, their periods make it impossible, their responsibilities, their women are flighty by nature.
[01:03:36.080 --> 01:03:38.480] And this is part of the story.
[01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:41.040] I like this image in your book.
[01:03:41.040 --> 01:03:43.200] Your body is a battleground.
[01:03:43.200 --> 01:03:43.680] Look at this.
[01:03:44.320 --> 01:03:46.400] This is a really powerful image.
[01:03:46.400 --> 01:03:48.240] I mean, that is something else.
[01:03:48.880 --> 01:03:52.000] And with the reverse negative.
[01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:53.520] And so, what's going on there?
[01:03:53.840 --> 01:03:54.720] What is that?
[01:03:54.720 --> 01:04:02.080] So, that is an image that's fairly well known because it's by an important contemporary artist.
[01:04:02.080 --> 01:04:09.280] And it's really became a kind of icon of the women's movement in the 80s, especially.
[01:04:09.280 --> 01:04:21.360] As people started to fight over abortion, the idea that women's bodies would be battlegrounds was something of a new, it's both old and new.
[01:04:21.360 --> 01:04:32.080] Old because people have always thought about women's bodies, but new in the sense that in the 70s, it was thought that the idea of the right to choose would not be very controversial.
[01:04:32.080 --> 01:04:32.960] And why?
[01:04:32.960 --> 01:04:50.320] Because if we all believe in choice, so it was a way of framing things to say, you don't have to like abortion, you don't have to get one if it doesn't appeal to you, but all you're doing is giving people, as in every other domain, the opportunity, if they want to make that selection, to select that among the possibilities.
[01:04:50.320 --> 01:05:00.920] And it was agreed upon as a slogan precisely to get away from more controversial framings of abortion, like population control or equal rights or things like that.
[01:05:02.200 --> 01:05:11.000] What happens is that it gets countered pretty quickly by the right to life and other kinds of arguments on other grounds.
[01:05:11.640 --> 01:05:28.360] And so the notion that your body is a battleground becomes really caught up in this same question: how much choice do women get about what happens to their bodies?
[01:05:28.360 --> 01:05:32.920] Is this something to be made privately, like many of these other choices?
[01:05:32.920 --> 01:05:36.120] Or is this something that's outside the boundaries of choice?
[01:05:36.120 --> 01:05:41.320] It's an unacceptable choice because there are things in our culture that we refuse to let people choose.
[01:05:41.320 --> 01:05:46.040] You know, I can't choose to sell one of my bodily organs.
[01:05:46.040 --> 01:05:49.960] I can't choose to buy illegal drugs, except illegally.
[01:05:49.960 --> 01:05:53.080] I mean, there are certain things that we say are beyond choice.
[01:05:53.400 --> 01:06:15.640] And the question becomes whether what women do with their bodies in a variety of different ways, but especially around abortion, are a domain in which women should have choice because it's about autonomy, or because there's another living being potentially connected, should be sort of excluded from the realm of choice.
[01:06:15.640 --> 01:06:22.600] Life being the argument as something more substantial than choice in that framework.
[01:06:23.240 --> 01:06:29.480] So, in the abortion debate, it was the right to choose versus the right to the life of the fetus, I guess.
[01:06:30.360 --> 01:06:36.440] And there you have conflicting rights in a society, and I guess that's how we settle it through elections and laws.
[01:06:36.760 --> 01:06:37.640] Right, right.
[01:06:38.360 --> 01:06:42.760] I mean, it was settled initially, of course, by courts, not by elections.
[01:06:42.920 --> 01:06:43.560] Roe v.
[01:06:43.560 --> 01:06:51.680] Wade and similar kinds of decisions happened in a short space of time everywhere from Sweden to England, Italy.
[01:06:51.920 --> 01:07:03.520] Gradually, you know, by the late 70s, a lot of nations had legalized abortion as never requiring it, but legalizing it as an option.
[01:07:03.840 --> 01:07:12.560] And even in France, the leading organization around reproductive rights, I'll call them that now, was called Choisir, which means to choose.
[01:07:13.120 --> 01:07:19.440] It wasn't a uniquely American framing, though probably the American example is the most prominent.
[01:07:19.440 --> 01:07:27.280] What happened after that is that it increasingly became something for legislatures to fight over, not just courts.
[01:07:27.920 --> 01:07:47.520] We've seen all kinds of laws made, and then they get challenged or not in the courts, but laws get made that, in a sense, push courts to make new decisions about the questions of when abortion is legal, who can perform it, at what moment.
[01:07:48.240 --> 01:07:51.840] There are hundreds of tiny nuances in all of these laws.
[01:07:52.800 --> 01:07:54.960] I've written a fair amount about the abortion debate.
[01:07:54.960 --> 01:07:56.000] I'm pro-choice.
[01:07:56.000 --> 01:08:12.080] I try to recognize the arguments on the other side, but I can't help but often thinking the real motive behind it is the centuries or millennium or more long desire to control female sexuality and choice by men.
[01:08:12.080 --> 01:08:13.760] It's always been there.
[01:08:13.760 --> 01:08:19.360] And there may even be evolutionary reasons for it, you know, mama's baby, daddy's maybe, right?
[01:08:19.360 --> 01:08:20.960] Paternity uncertainty.
[01:08:20.960 --> 01:08:25.120] I got to make sure that I'm, you know, raising my own genes, right?
[01:08:25.120 --> 01:08:31.160] So men have this tendency to want to control female choice in that area.
[01:08:29.760 --> 01:08:36.120] But that's not an argument, you know, that pro-lifers don't go, yeah, that's why I want to control women.
[01:08:36.680 --> 01:08:38.280] They don't say that.
[01:08:39.240 --> 01:08:41.320] I think that's correct.
[01:08:41.320 --> 01:08:50.200] I think that the arguments on the pro-life side are interesting in their framing as politics, but that doesn't necessarily explain their initial motives.
[01:08:50.200 --> 01:09:13.880] And I would have to agree with you that there is a very, very, very long tradition in almost every culture of controlling women's sexuality, making sure we talked about the question of, for instance, why men can legitimately have mistresses and see prostitutes in 18th, 19th century Western Europe, and women, it's not possible.
[01:09:14.200 --> 01:09:16.120] Same reasons, basically.
[01:09:16.440 --> 01:09:19.560] So there may be evolutionary reasons for that.
[01:09:19.560 --> 01:09:25.080] I'm not disputing that possibility, but we code them differently in every different culture.
[01:09:25.080 --> 01:09:26.760] And we talk about them differently.
[01:09:26.760 --> 01:09:28.840] And the politics that follow are different.
[01:09:28.840 --> 01:09:35.240] So on top of our kind of natural biology, I think rests a lot of kind of history and culture.
[01:09:37.720 --> 01:09:51.720] And I would have to agree, at the end of the day, the debate about abortion is, yes, we talk about the life of the fetus, but I think women's sexuality is at the core of what we're really talking about.
[01:09:51.720 --> 01:09:58.440] Concern for newborns, for instance, is not that great in their well-being among the pro-life side.
[01:09:58.440 --> 01:10:20.720] There hasn't been a, especially outside of sort of Catholic ethics, which has its own particular arguments, but in the U.S., especially, rarely are arguments against abortion coupled with arguments about the necessity of helping mothers or doing something for babies, which suggests to me that it's much more about controlling women's sexuality.
[01:10:21.120 --> 01:10:23.680] You ever seen George Carlin's riff on that?
[01:10:23.920 --> 01:10:27.840] He says that pro-lifers are pro-life all the way up until the birth of the child.
[01:10:27.840 --> 01:10:29.840] After that, you're on your own.
[01:10:30.160 --> 01:10:31.760] That's, I mean, that's that's there.
[01:10:31.760 --> 01:10:34.240] You go, that's sort of choice ideology of the thing.
[01:10:35.040 --> 01:10:36.720] George Carlin's funny on everything.
[01:10:36.720 --> 01:10:38.400] And it's funny because it's true.
[01:10:38.720 --> 01:10:39.920] It's basically true.
[01:10:39.920 --> 01:10:40.320] Right.
[01:10:40.320 --> 01:10:43.760] So, in that case, it is hard to not see the arguments as disingenuous.
[01:10:43.760 --> 01:10:52.480] There could be a serious argument, the sanctity of life argument taken in certain directions could be a profound one.
[01:10:52.480 --> 01:10:57.120] But as you say, it's rarely framed in those terms.
[01:10:57.120 --> 01:11:02.560] I do think that it's worth asking sometimes: which things do we not want to give people choice about?
[01:11:02.560 --> 01:11:05.040] It's not like choice is always empowering.
[01:11:05.360 --> 01:11:08.720] I think, for instance, it's a good thing that you can't sell a baby.
[01:11:08.720 --> 01:11:11.200] You know, most of us would probably agree, right?
[01:11:11.200 --> 01:11:18.720] So we want there to be some moral strictures around what we can do with other humans.
[01:11:18.720 --> 01:11:31.040] But in this case, right, until there's some concern with the baby in a longer-term framework, why are we worried about this small collection of cells before the viability of life, even?
[01:11:31.360 --> 01:11:31.920] Yeah.
[01:11:32.240 --> 01:11:40.240] Another debate I've been having that's been out there in culture, so I've had several podcast guests talking about this is female sexuality, the sexual revolution, all that.
[01:11:40.240 --> 01:11:42.320] So I had Louise Perry on the show.
[01:11:42.320 --> 01:11:58.160] Her book was The Case Against the Sexual Revolution, basically, saying that, you know, the idea we were sold in the feminist revolution that women can have all the sex they want, just like men, carefree and so forth, is not good for women, right?
[01:11:58.160 --> 01:12:08.680] And then I had an ex-prostitute, Rachel Moran, who wrote a book paid for about her life in prostitution, how horrible it was, really, really bad.
[01:12:08.920 --> 01:12:16.520] Basically, she says, even if it's regulated and women have unions and it's all controlled and they make good money and so on and so on, it's still bad for women.
[01:12:16.840 --> 01:12:19.640] Then I have other guests that are going, oh, come on.
[01:12:19.640 --> 01:12:22.280] I had ALA on the show, A-E-L-L-A.
[01:12:22.440 --> 01:12:28.360] She was at one point the highest earner on OnlyFans, again, making like $50,000 to $100,000 a month.
[01:12:29.000 --> 01:12:31.640] So she says, you mind your own business.
[01:12:31.640 --> 01:12:33.400] This is my choice.
[01:12:33.400 --> 01:12:37.000] And I'll live with the consequences if there are any, but so far, so good.
[01:12:37.000 --> 01:12:40.280] And if you don't want to have sex like a man, then don't.
[01:12:40.600 --> 01:12:41.160] Right?
[01:12:42.360 --> 01:12:45.560] Yeah, some people call that choice feminism, actually.
[01:12:45.560 --> 01:12:50.360] The idea that any choice a woman makes is legitimate because a woman made it.
[01:12:51.000 --> 01:13:08.920] And other people see what you're describing in the latter case as kind of choice, but in a cultural context that's rife with misogyny and therefore not, in a sense, really a free choice.
[01:13:09.240 --> 01:13:19.560] So there are definitely, there are feminists who are very pro-sex worker, and there are feminists who see sex workers as evidence of the failures of feminism.
[01:13:19.720 --> 01:13:22.280] There's a really wide range of opinion there.
[01:13:23.800 --> 01:13:28.840] But the debate is sometimes framed around something really specifically called choice feminism.
[01:13:28.840 --> 01:13:35.960] And it's popular, especially with the younger generation, that says, you know, feminism is just having the choices.
[01:13:35.960 --> 01:13:44.760] Any choice I make is fine, even if I choose the most traditional thing or the most outrageous thing because I'm making it and I'm female.
[01:13:45.840 --> 01:14:01.280] But that doesn't always sit well with other kinds of feminists who see certain choices as leading towards essentially ways of reaffirming sexism in the world in the world.
[01:14:02.240 --> 01:14:05.360] Yeah, I guess this would be back to what's the collective good.
[01:14:05.360 --> 01:14:08.240] I mean, we outlaw prostitution.
[01:14:08.240 --> 01:14:09.200] Why?
[01:14:09.200 --> 01:14:11.840] You know, it's none of my business what consenting adults do.
[01:14:11.840 --> 01:14:17.280] And if they want to exchange, make it exchangeable for money, I don't care.
[01:14:17.280 --> 01:14:24.480] Well, but it brings down the neighborhood or it erodes social trust and solidarity, and I don't know what.
[01:14:24.960 --> 01:14:26.720] You know, they have these arguments.
[01:14:27.040 --> 01:14:30.160] I mean, so the question, I mean, I guess there are two ways of looking at it.
[01:14:30.160 --> 01:14:38.960] One, you could say it's absurd because what difference does it make to me if you could have, why can't you pay somebody for sex if you can have sex with anyone you want anytime?
[01:14:38.960 --> 01:14:41.200] So why not pay them if you want to?
[01:14:41.200 --> 01:14:47.600] On the other hand, you might say that the payment creates structures of exploitation.
[01:14:47.600 --> 01:14:47.920] Yeah.
[01:14:47.920 --> 01:14:54.320] That the same way if you said, well, why can't I hire somebody for $2 an hour at my store if they're willing to work for $2 an hour?
[01:14:54.480 --> 01:14:55.920] Why can't I pay them $2 an hour?
[01:14:55.920 --> 01:15:01.760] Or why can't they work in dangerous conditions if they're willing, they're consenting to it?
[01:15:01.760 --> 01:15:03.920] But we also look to the law.
[01:15:03.920 --> 01:15:09.120] We look to the law also to protect people from certain kinds of exploitation.
[01:15:09.120 --> 01:15:13.200] And the question is whether sex work is always a form of exploitation or not.
[01:15:13.840 --> 01:15:18.000] The same way paying somebody $82 an hour to work, I think we're pretty sure it is.
[01:15:18.320 --> 01:15:18.800] Yeah.
[01:15:18.800 --> 01:15:28.160] Well, the pro-sex workers would say that you just need tighter controls and more protections of the women.
[01:15:28.160 --> 01:15:33.400] I just had on a woman named Brooke Urich, U-R-I-C-H.
[01:15:33.640 --> 01:15:37.960] Her book is called Wink, Wink, Nod, Nod: My Life as a Sugar Baby.
[01:15:38.280 --> 01:15:39.560] Which I knew nothing about this.
[01:15:39.640 --> 01:15:41.400] Like, wow, this is incredible.
[01:15:41.400 --> 01:15:42.440] So she's against it.
[01:15:42.440 --> 01:15:46.280] She's now an activist against these sugar daddy sites.
[01:15:46.280 --> 01:15:47.320] He worked for one of them.
[01:15:47.320 --> 01:15:53.960] Well, first he was working on the site as a sugar baby called Seeking.
[01:15:53.960 --> 01:15:57.160] Seeking arrangements was the original, and then they changed it to Seeking.
[01:15:58.120 --> 01:16:08.920] And the problem is, is that the way the economic financial structure for the websites are that the men join and pay, and the women just get to be on for free.
[01:16:08.920 --> 01:16:10.520] They're the clients.
[01:16:10.520 --> 01:16:15.240] And so the company only really cares about the men because they're the ones that are paying.
[01:16:15.240 --> 01:16:25.480] And so, you know, half these sugar daddies that are supposedly these old rich guys that don't look like Brad Pitt and they're not actually rich, they don't check them.
[01:16:25.480 --> 01:16:34.840] You know, when you join, apparently you don't have to submit your 1099s or your last three years of tax returns or even a picture of you with your private jet.
[01:16:34.840 --> 01:16:39.720] So, you know, half these guys are just old married guys that don't have any money and they're just exploiting the women.
[01:16:39.720 --> 01:16:42.680] And then so the women have to figure this out on their own.
[01:16:42.680 --> 01:16:44.520] And because, of course, it's all illegal.
[01:16:44.520 --> 01:16:47.560] So they have to set it up as a gifting site.
[01:16:47.560 --> 01:16:51.240] Like, I'm going to gift you this, whatever it is you want.
[01:16:51.240 --> 01:16:56.280] And the women actually like register at different stores, like, like, like you're engaged to be married.
[01:16:56.280 --> 01:17:00.360] Like, I'm registered at Sex, Fifth Avenue, and these are the items I would like.
[01:17:00.360 --> 01:17:05.080] And then the guy buys them one of the items, and they go to the hotel and do their thing.
[01:17:05.080 --> 01:17:05.400] Right.
[01:17:05.400 --> 01:17:06.920] So it's crazy.
[01:17:06.920 --> 01:17:18.000] But her concern is that it's mostly young women and actually sometimes underage because they don't check the you know any birth certificate of anybody, right?
[01:17:18.000 --> 01:17:26.480] And they and they target college-age women saying you can pay for your expensive tuition by join this site and these guys will pay your tuition, right?
[01:17:26.480 --> 01:17:30.800] And this rarely actually happens, so it's exploitation that's the concern.
[01:17:31.120 --> 01:17:36.800] I think that's true in general of an extreme choice environment.
[01:17:36.800 --> 01:17:50.640] Um, whereas choice is basically a form of liberation, I don't dispute that, an excessive investment in choice, and choice is the kind of highest value that just anybody should be able to do anything, which is a kind of libertarianism.
[01:17:50.640 --> 01:17:57.440] Yeah, it doesn't end up treating all humans with dignity, right?
[01:17:57.440 --> 01:18:08.240] That whether that's about sex or about what you do with your body, you know, I can't sell my liver to somebody.
[01:18:08.240 --> 01:18:09.600] Well, that's probably good, right?
[01:18:09.600 --> 01:18:10.000] Right.
[01:18:10.000 --> 01:18:13.280] These are, these are, you know, I can't sell myself into slavery.
[01:18:13.280 --> 01:18:15.040] There's a lot of things I can't.
[01:18:15.040 --> 01:18:32.240] And I think we want there to be domains in which choice is not permissible, despite kind of libertarian emphases, precisely because we live in a collective world and we have to have some concern with other people.
[01:18:32.240 --> 01:18:34.560] Everything can't be for sale.
[01:18:34.560 --> 01:18:42.640] Ever notice how ads always pop up at the worst moments when the killer's identity is about to be revealed?
[01:18:42.640 --> 01:18:50.320] During that perfect meditation flow on Amazon Music, we believe in keeping you in the moments.
[01:18:50.320 --> 01:18:53.680] That's why we've got millions of ad-free podcast episodes.
[01:18:53.680 --> 01:19:00.120] So you can stay completely immersed in every story, every reveal, every breath.
[01:18:59.520 --> 01:19:06.760] Download the Amazon Music app and start listening to your favorite podcasts, ad-free, included with Prime.
[01:19:08.040 --> 01:19:25.880] So, even so, one of the executive orders of President Trump in the last two weeks or so was framed around choice, and it was framed around you'll have choice in car and choice in light bulbs and choice in appliances going forward.
[01:19:25.880 --> 01:19:29.720] So, you're like, okay, well, who's opposed to choice in appliances?
[01:19:29.720 --> 01:19:39.880] But then it turns out that that means appliances that are not bad for the environment, that don't meet certain standards.
[01:19:39.880 --> 01:19:45.560] And then that hurts the air we all breathe and the climate that we're all living in.
[01:19:45.560 --> 01:19:48.440] So, somebody's choices end up hurting somebody else.
[01:19:48.440 --> 01:19:53.240] I mean, it's indirect in that case, not as direct as the sexual exploitation one.
[01:19:53.240 --> 01:20:00.600] But it's another one of those realms in which you can say choice is basically a good thing, but unlimited choice, I don't want to buy.
[01:20:00.600 --> 01:20:07.640] I don't want people to be able to buy the most polluting and the most high-energy use and most polluting appliances.
[01:20:08.120 --> 01:20:12.920] That's where we look for regulation to keep us from having those choices.
[01:20:12.920 --> 01:20:17.640] Give us choices, but give us choices with certain restrictions on what they can be.
[01:20:17.640 --> 01:20:28.040] And so, I noticed immediately this kind of freedom of choice language popping up here, but it's less liberating than it sounds.
[01:20:28.360 --> 01:20:28.920] Oh, I know.
[01:20:28.920 --> 01:20:33.880] I've always been critical of Republicans and conservatives, you know, that we love choice and freedom and autonomy.
[01:20:33.880 --> 01:20:37.160] And it's like, oh, yeah, you mean like women's reproductive choices?
[01:20:37.160 --> 01:20:37.720] Well, not that.
[01:20:38.040 --> 01:20:39.720] How about like gay guys can get married?
[01:20:39.720 --> 01:20:41.320] No, well, not that.
[01:20:42.120 --> 01:20:45.760] So, all of a sudden, you have just as many restrictions.
[01:20:44.680 --> 01:20:49.200] We fight a lot about, I mean, we have to.
[01:20:49.360 --> 01:20:55.040] I mean, it's part of democratic politics is fighting about who gets choices and what those choices should be.
[01:20:55.040 --> 01:20:57.600] And those conversations are important.
[01:20:57.920 --> 01:21:10.160] But I think sometimes we risk having gotten to a point where rhetorically we're always convinced that more choice is better, or you wouldn't have everything from reproductive choice on the left to school choice on the right, because everybody says, yeah, choice.
[01:21:10.160 --> 01:21:11.200] We want choice.
[01:21:11.200 --> 01:21:12.080] Okay, fine.
[01:21:12.080 --> 01:21:16.240] But let's think about what the after effects are of some of these kinds of choices.
[01:21:16.240 --> 01:21:22.000] They're not always that good either for the person making the choice or for the collective good.
[01:21:22.640 --> 01:21:30.400] Yeah, I had Cass on the show talking about libertarian paternalism, which is such a crazy term because it's like, wait a minute.
[01:21:30.400 --> 01:21:36.000] But his point is that we're making decisions about restricting choices all the time anyway.
[01:21:36.000 --> 01:21:38.320] So why not do it in a rational way?
[01:21:38.640 --> 01:21:41.360] And he's right, I think, to that extent.
[01:21:41.360 --> 01:21:45.520] There's no such thing as, as I said, as a kind of unbounded choice.
[01:21:45.520 --> 01:21:47.360] Choices are always bounded.
[01:21:47.360 --> 01:21:56.880] So we do have to have conversations about which ones are ethically acceptable, which ones do we publicly steer people towards making and which ones not.
[01:21:56.880 --> 01:21:58.800] I don't think he's entirely wrong.
[01:21:58.800 --> 01:22:07.360] I mean, sometimes that kind of stuff is focused on very small bore things like do you put the candy or the apples next to the cash register?
[01:22:08.320 --> 01:22:12.640] I'm thinking more in sort of big social questions.
[01:22:13.040 --> 01:22:15.760] Where does choice fit into them in the broadest sense?
[01:22:16.080 --> 01:22:18.160] It's less kind of technocratic, maybe.
[01:22:18.320 --> 01:22:20.240] I like the example of the driver's license.
[01:22:20.240 --> 01:22:27.840] I'm in California, so I had to put the little button on my driver's license that says, I will donate my organs.
[01:22:27.840 --> 01:22:29.920] I have to opt in to donate my organs if I'm killed.
[01:22:30.280 --> 01:22:33.400] In Oregon, just up the road, it's opt-out.
[01:22:33.400 --> 01:22:37.320] You will be given your organs if you die, unless you tell us you don't want to.
[01:22:37.320 --> 01:22:39.240] And they have much higher rates.
[01:22:39.560 --> 01:22:40.600] And it's really interesting.
[01:22:40.600 --> 01:22:43.640] That's the classic example for the libertarian paternalists.
[01:22:43.640 --> 01:22:43.960] Yeah.
[01:22:44.120 --> 01:22:49.480] It's absolutely that with this kind of opt-in, opt-out possibility.
[01:22:49.480 --> 01:22:53.000] And I think that stuff's very interesting because it is important for public policy.
[01:22:53.000 --> 01:23:01.160] But they get right too, I think, even more broadly, that there's always something that they call choice architecture.
[01:23:01.160 --> 01:23:11.080] You can come back to Christopher Cox's making choice architecture when he sets up his auction house, which is to say, again, we don't make choices just in a vacuum.
[01:23:11.080 --> 01:23:16.760] They're always set out for us in various ways, and we're always being steered.
[01:23:16.760 --> 01:23:20.360] And that isn't necessarily a bad thing, but we're not very aware of it.
[01:23:20.360 --> 01:23:27.880] We don't always realize that our selections are, as your example was, you know, I bought this book, so you'll like this one.
[01:23:27.880 --> 01:23:30.120] So let me show you these ones again.
[01:23:30.520 --> 01:23:33.480] That happens to a certain extent in almost every realm.
[01:23:33.480 --> 01:23:37.560] We're always being given kind of orchestrated options.
[01:23:37.560 --> 01:23:37.960] Yeah.
[01:23:38.280 --> 01:23:42.680] There is something about the human body that makes the choices feel different.
[01:23:42.680 --> 01:23:58.040] Thinking about Alan Fisk's model, the anthropologist Alan Fisk's model of different human relationships, like communal sharing, where it's understood that you will just share food, like you and your husband, you're not going to charge him for sex or for food or whatever.
[01:23:58.040 --> 01:24:04.600] But if you went to a restaurant and you said to the owner after you ate, well, I'll have you over to my house, he'd be like, what?
[01:24:04.920 --> 01:24:07.320] No, this is not a communal sharing.
[01:24:07.320 --> 01:24:09.720] This is a financial transaction, right?
[01:24:09.720 --> 01:24:17.600] And there's something about sex, prostitution, and organ sales that makes people feel like that's in the wrong category.
[01:24:17.760 --> 01:24:25.760] You're putting it in the economic category, and it's really more of something you just do out of choice, out of free choice without an exchange.
[01:24:26.400 --> 01:24:26.800] Right.
[01:24:26.800 --> 01:24:46.240] So that's the risk, and this is something about sometimes economists use these kinds of models when they use economic models for things that aren't necessarily economic decisions, like, say, a marriage, is the risk of imagining humans as always operating in markets.
[01:24:46.560 --> 01:24:50.560] And many things we do are not really about markets.
[01:24:50.560 --> 01:24:53.200] You know, we do things that are altruistic.
[01:24:54.160 --> 01:24:56.160] We do things that are about care.
[01:24:56.160 --> 01:24:58.080] We do things that are about anger.
[01:24:58.080 --> 01:25:03.840] And even when they work against our interests, humans are complicated, right?
[01:25:03.840 --> 01:25:15.840] And we're not always acting in ways that are either rational or operating as if we were standing in a marketplace selecting among options.
[01:25:16.160 --> 01:25:32.320] And if you think of humans constantly only as market actors, only as choosers, you do end up in this kind of libertarian sphere where just selfish desires are the only thing that really matters.
[01:25:32.640 --> 01:25:34.640] People's personal preferences.
[01:25:34.640 --> 01:25:50.880] And I don't want to dispute that personal preferences are really important, but there have to be limits on when those are the absolutely the most important things for us to get along as humans in a society.
[01:25:50.880 --> 01:25:51.440] Yeah.
[01:25:51.760 --> 01:25:56.880] Remember that film, Indecent Proposal, Demi Moore, and Robert Redford, right?
[01:25:57.040 --> 01:26:02.040] Where he's, you know, I'll pay you a million dollars to have sex with your wife.
[01:25:59.840 --> 01:26:04.280] And then trouble ensues.
[01:26:06.440 --> 01:26:09.000] We don't want everything to be subject to payment.
[01:26:09.000 --> 01:26:09.480] Right.
[01:26:09.480 --> 01:26:15.560] And we don't want everything to be one of the options on the table for sale or not for sale.
[01:26:15.560 --> 01:26:18.840] And some things are legal when they're done.
[01:26:18.840 --> 01:26:24.760] You can, for instance, you can donate an organ rather than sell an organ.
[01:26:24.760 --> 01:26:29.000] But some things we don't want you to do for money or not for money.
[01:26:29.000 --> 01:26:37.640] You know, fentanyl is not quite going to be legalized tomorrow, even if it's just exchanged without cost.
[01:26:38.200 --> 01:26:56.760] And as you say, the body in particular is one place where we're really worried about various forms of exploitation, especially when they enter the economic sphere, that people will end up doing things that are really a form of self-harm because their economic desperation will drive them to do so.
[01:26:56.760 --> 01:27:07.240] And I think it's right that we leave some of those possibilities off the table, or else you really would see greater exploitation of the most vulnerable people among us.
[01:27:07.240 --> 01:27:07.800] Yeah.
[01:27:08.440 --> 01:27:10.360] All right, Sophia, last question here.
[01:27:10.360 --> 01:27:17.800] Your book focuses a lot on women and how this has changed female autonomy and choice over the centuries.
[01:27:17.800 --> 01:27:25.880] Are you optimistic going forward that more choice is going to be good for women, that the arc of the moral universe is still bending in the right direction for women?
[01:27:25.880 --> 01:27:28.360] Are you worried about changes?
[01:27:29.640 --> 01:27:39.800] I find this to be, you're asking me at a tough moment because I think we are in a little bit, and I'll talk only about the U.S., but I could talk about the world as a whole.
[01:27:39.800 --> 01:27:47.920] We're in a rather radical moment, anti-incumbency feelings, hostility to what exists.
[01:27:48.160 --> 01:27:52.480] If you, there's nothing conservative about what's happening right now, it's quite the opposite.
[01:27:52.480 --> 01:28:04.160] It might be described as a kind of radical moment of testing the boundaries of our political sphere, of our kind of social obligations to each other.
[01:28:05.120 --> 01:28:07.920] I find this to be a nerve-wracking moment.
[01:28:07.920 --> 01:28:15.200] I'm not sure what's to come, and I won't say that that's for women, but that's really for everyone.
[01:28:15.200 --> 01:28:17.840] And I can't predict.
[01:28:18.160 --> 01:28:22.480] You know, historians are better at talking about the past than what's going to happen exactly.
[01:28:22.480 --> 01:28:37.600] But that said, I feel that we're on a very uncertain course right now, and the anger and hostility towards what exists and established could lead us a lot of different directions.
[01:28:37.600 --> 01:28:56.320] And some of those could be one risk is certainly extreme libertarianism, but the other risk is absolutely the opposite, which is a kind of authoritarianism in which a lot of autonomy and choices about what one does in the private sphere start to go away.
[01:28:56.320 --> 01:28:56.960] Yeah.
[01:28:56.960 --> 01:28:58.560] I'm worried about that too.
[01:28:59.200 --> 01:29:00.480] All right, the age of choice.
[01:29:00.480 --> 01:29:03.120] Here it is: A History of Freedom of Modern Life.
[01:29:03.120 --> 01:29:03.600] Get it?
[01:29:03.600 --> 01:29:04.480] Read it.
[01:29:04.480 --> 01:29:05.040] Check it out.
[01:29:05.040 --> 01:29:06.080] It's on audio, too.
[01:29:06.080 --> 01:29:07.680] I listen to it on audio.
[01:29:07.680 --> 01:29:08.800] It's a great read.
[01:29:08.800 --> 01:29:09.760] All right, Sophia.
[01:29:09.760 --> 01:29:11.200] Thank you so much.
[01:29:11.200 --> 01:29:11.840] Thank you.
[01:29:11.840 --> 01:29:13.840] It's been a pleasure to talk with you.
Prompt 6: Key Takeaways
Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.
Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...".
Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive.
IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}
Prompt 7: Segments
Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.
For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion
IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.
Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
"segments": [
{
"segment_title": "Topic Discussion",
"timestamp": "01:15:30",
"key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
"segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
}
]
}
Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.
Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:
Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)
DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names
IMPORTANT:
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.
Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
"media_mentions": [
{
"title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
"category": "Book",
"author_artist": "N/A",
"context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
"context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
"timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
}
]
}
If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}
Full Transcript
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[00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:02.880] You're listening to The Michael Shermer Show.
[00:01:10.160 --> 00:01:16.400] Here's a new book just came out: The Age of Choice: A History of Freedom in Modern Life.
[00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:17.280] You can see that, right?
[00:01:17.280 --> 00:01:18.320] Yep, there we go.
[00:01:18.320 --> 00:01:18.960] All right.
[00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:21.040] Sophia, congratulations on the book.
[00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:23.200] We're recording this two days after your pub date, I see.
[00:01:23.520 --> 00:01:25.520] That's so cool.
[00:01:25.520 --> 00:01:26.160] Thank you.
[00:01:26.160 --> 00:01:27.840] It's a pleasure to be speaking with you.
[00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:30.880] And yes, it is indeed two days after pub date.
[00:01:30.880 --> 00:01:35.360] You know, I have to say, I've published with both trade houses and university presses.
[00:01:35.360 --> 00:01:37.680] Yours is Princeton University Press.
[00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:53.760] The latter do I, in my opinion, I hate to say this in case my regular trade publisher hears this, but the higher, the quality of the production and the four-color photos and the typography layout, the quality of the paper is so good.
[00:01:54.080 --> 00:01:54.960] Isn't it beautiful?
[00:01:55.360 --> 00:01:56.320] Yeah, they did it.
[00:01:56.720 --> 00:02:01.640] It comes out with the trade end of Princeton University Press, which has a trade end.
[00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:04.440] And I think they do some of the most beautiful books out there.
[00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:05.800] Yeah, they did a nice job.
[00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:08.440] Okay, I always like to ask my guests, you know, what's your story?
[00:02:08.440 --> 00:02:09.240] So, what's your story?
[00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:10.600] How'd you get into history?
[00:02:10.600 --> 00:02:11.400] Where are you from?
[00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:12.200] Where'd you grow up?
[00:02:12.200 --> 00:02:15.000] How'd you get into studying history and all that?
[00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:23.880] See, I was born in New York City, grew up right outside the city in Leonia, New Jersey, small town on the other side of the George Washington Bridge.
[00:02:23.880 --> 00:02:31.720] And I was lucky to have great history teachers at some critical moments, high school, college.
[00:02:32.360 --> 00:02:36.760] And I guess I got hooked early on and never stopped being hooked.
[00:02:36.760 --> 00:02:44.760] Obviously, the kinds of things I'm interested in have evolved over time, but sometimes once you get the history bug, it's hard to get rid of it.
[00:02:44.760 --> 00:02:45.400] Yeah.
[00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:47.560] How do you decide what topics you want to take on?
[00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:51.000] I mean, apparently you're interested in politics, obviously.
[00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:52.600] I'm interested in politics.
[00:02:52.600 --> 00:02:53.160] I'm interested.
[00:02:53.160 --> 00:02:54.920] I'm an odd kind of historian, actually.
[00:02:54.920 --> 00:03:00.920] I'm a historian of the things we usually take for granted and therefore don't see as historical.
[00:03:00.920 --> 00:03:06.440] So, for instance, I wrote a book about common sense, and common sense is not something we tend to think is historical at all.
[00:03:06.440 --> 00:03:09.160] And I was interested in precisely how it is.
[00:03:09.160 --> 00:03:23.960] I think these ideas are kind of important because they're the ideas when we take them as natural and as givens, we don't see that they're flexible, that they come in and out of fashion, that they have, and that they do things and they have almost lives of their own.
[00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:32.120] So, I've been a historian for a long time of the, I'll call it the taken for granted, the assumptions we make, particularly the assumptions about politics.
[00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:36.440] Can you give us an example of what you mean by common sense and how that changed historically?
[00:03:36.760 --> 00:03:37.720] Sure.
[00:03:38.040 --> 00:03:44.040] So, common sense is supposed to be the things you kind of know just because you're living your life.
[00:03:44.040 --> 00:03:45.360] They're just obvious to you.
[00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:48.880] You know, you stick your hand in the fire, you're going to get burned, that kind of thing.
[00:03:49.200 --> 00:03:56.480] But if you actually look at lists of common sense over time, a lot of them turned out to be things that are quite disputable.
[00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:01.600] Today we're arguing: is it common sense that there are two genders or not?
[00:04:01.600 --> 00:04:07.280] Once upon a time, people argued, is it common sense that obviously God made everything that lies around us?
[00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:10.000] Most things turn out to be historically flexible.
[00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:14.880] And even the category itself of common sense is something of a modern invention.
[00:04:14.880 --> 00:04:24.240] It's an invention of really the 17th and 18th centuries that said ordinary people have some basic knowledge that's worth taking seriously.
[00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:27.280] And that really wasn't an idea before then either.
[00:04:27.280 --> 00:04:34.080] So both the content and the category itself turn out to have a long history.
[00:04:34.080 --> 00:04:35.200] Oh, that's so interesting.
[00:04:35.200 --> 00:04:39.040] Yeah, because I'm interested in the history of the superstition and magical thinking.
[00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:52.960] And so if you think of yourselves back a few centuries, half a millennium or so to where everybody believed in, say, witches or spirits or ghosts or demons and just, you know, things that go bump in the night, it was just kind of common knowledge.
[00:04:52.960 --> 00:04:57.040] We all know that's why the crops died or the cow got sick or whatever.
[00:04:58.000 --> 00:04:58.560] Absolutely.
[00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:03.600] And I'm sure some of the things that we think now are absolutely kind of taken for granted categories.
[00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:09.280] We'll turn out upon historical recollection at some future moment.
[00:05:09.280 --> 00:05:13.360] They'll say, how did those people in the early 21st century actually believe that?
[00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:14.320] Oh, I know.
[00:05:14.320 --> 00:05:15.440] I think about this all the time.
[00:05:15.440 --> 00:05:25.120] This, you know, kind of givens about our opinions on, I don't know, animal rights, say, or consciousness or dark energy, the Big Bang, whatever.
[00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:27.280] Just even scientific theories.
[00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:37.800] You know, we're pretty confident we have, you know, theories about this or that, but so were the people 500 years ago before Newton, you know, about why things fall the way that they do.
[00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:41.800] And then, like, oh, no, that's not that's not common knowledge at all.
[00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:43.720] I think history is really good for that.
[00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:51.160] It makes everybody question which assumptions are really rock solid and which aren't.
[00:05:51.160 --> 00:06:01.240] And history helps you see that things change over time, that we shouldn't pat ourselves on the back too quickly, that we know everything and people in the past knew nothing.
[00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:05.240] Yeah, I just had a podcast guest who is kind of an animal rights activist.
[00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:11.400] He's a moral philosopher that writes about harm reduction theory of our moral sentiments.
[00:06:11.400 --> 00:06:13.000] That is, that is our concern.
[00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:15.080] But of course, that wasn't the concern centuries ago.
[00:06:15.080 --> 00:06:21.880] No one cared less about other beings suffering, not even other humans, just as long as it didn't happen to me.
[00:06:22.840 --> 00:06:28.040] I mean, but people may look back on us and wonder: either how did they eat that much meat?
[00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:37.560] I don't know, or they might go the other direction, or how did they walk down the street and step over homeless people and not feel horrible qualms about not handing over their food to them?
[00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:45.160] It's hard to say what will be condemned for having ignored or not treated as a moral failure in the future.
[00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:45.800] Oh, totally.
[00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:51.320] This guy, Kirk Gray, he's got stats on like the number of animals that are killed every year.
[00:06:51.320 --> 00:06:55.640] I mean, it's billions and billions, actually, even trillions if you count like insects.
[00:06:55.640 --> 00:06:57.960] Some cultures eat insects.
[00:06:57.960 --> 00:07:00.600] And wow, yeah, it's just staggering.
[00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:03.640] And, but they taste so good, right?
[00:07:03.960 --> 00:07:05.800] So how's going to give it up?
[00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:07.560] Anyway, so, all right.
[00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:09.560] So, the age of choice.
[00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:13.560] Before we talk about choice, how do you decide, as a historian, what's the age?
[00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:19.440] I mean, it's not like the Olympic starting with the lighting of the torch and it began today.
[00:07:14.760 --> 00:07:21.840] You couldn't be more right about that.
[00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:24.080] History rarely has a kind of moment.
[00:07:24.080 --> 00:07:28.160] You can say that's the moment the state failed, or that's the moment something happened.
[00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:32.320] So, age is deliberately very broad.
[00:07:32.320 --> 00:07:34.240] It doesn't even say century.
[00:07:34.960 --> 00:07:43.040] But I think that the period we're talking about, we see the roots of it going back to the 17th and 18th centuries.
[00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:54.880] But it's really not till the late 19th into the 20th century that the idea that freedom really is a matter of having choices in all kinds of domains is really solidified.
[00:07:54.880 --> 00:07:57.040] So, I try to tell the long story.
[00:07:57.040 --> 00:08:02.560] I start back with things like the origins of shopping and the after effects of the Reformation.
[00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:23.360] I go pretty far back, but the whole time, what I'm really interested in is how did we get to this moment today and really largely since the Second World War, where we became convinced that this is what being an autonomous human looks like: to be a person who gets to pick off menus of options of different kinds.
[00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:32.800] And so, life wasn't always like that, is your point, that centuries ago people just had far fewer choices, or they didn't even think like I should have more choices.
[00:08:32.800 --> 00:08:35.200] They just didn't even occur to them.
[00:08:35.520 --> 00:08:36.240] Both.
[00:08:36.240 --> 00:09:01.320] I think people generally had far fewer choices, fewer choices about whom to marry, what to buy, what to eat for dinner, political candidates, entertainments, ideas, the kind of, you know, nobody lived in a world where, like we do, where you want to buy, I don't know, a new refrigerator, and you can go on Amazon and look at hundreds of different models.
[00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:02.840] That's something pretty new.
[00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:05.080] If Amazon sells refrigerators, I'm not even sure.
[00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:06.200] Oh, they sell everything.
[00:08:59.760 --> 00:09:07.080] You can get pretty much anything.
[00:09:08.280 --> 00:09:13.480] But that said, it's not just that the number of choices or the opportunities for choice kept growing.
[00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:17.320] It's also the valorization of choice shifted.
[00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:27.160] Once there was the notion, going back into the early modern period in Europe, for instance, that choice was largely about doing the right thing or the wrong thing.
[00:09:27.160 --> 00:09:28.440] That kind of choice mattered.
[00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:33.960] But the rest of those, the rest of choices one made were not particularly valued.
[00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:50.120] By the time you get to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in the 20th century, what human rights are often defined as the right to choose things, the right to choose your employment, the right to choose where you live, the right to choose your education, the right to choose a spouse.
[00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:57.960] And this gives an incredible value to choice as really what it means to be a person with rights in the world.
[00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:02.200] And that notion of humans just can't be found in an earlier moment.
[00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:12.520] So it's both an increase in quantity and probably quality of choices, but also the importance of them for the way we define ourselves and our politics.
[00:10:13.160 --> 00:10:19.640] So there's roughly two rights revolution periods, late 18th century and then mid-20th century.
[00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:32.280] Did in the late 18th century, say, with the American and French Revolutions and their Declaration of Rights, were those different than, say, what Eleanor Roosevelt was promoting with the Universal Declaration of Rights?
[00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:47.520] It's a great question because people tend to write the history of human rights in a sort of linear fashion: that the numbers of rights grew, the holders of rights grew, and the extent of them becoming global rather than national increased.
[00:10:47.520 --> 00:10:51.280] And it's kind of often told as if there's sort of a line and we can trace it.
[00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:56.640] I think something really fundamental shifts in conceptions of human rights.
[00:10:56.640 --> 00:11:04.560] Because if you look back at Bills of Rights, including the Declaration of the Rights of Man in France at the time of the French Revolution, no one's talking about choice.
[00:11:04.560 --> 00:11:06.400] It's not a word that gets used.
[00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:11.280] And there's a discussion certainly of political choice in the sense of voting.
[00:11:11.280 --> 00:11:14.640] But even there, it's imagined as a kind of communal choice.
[00:11:14.640 --> 00:11:18.560] The people will collectively or the nation will decide something.
[00:11:18.560 --> 00:11:28.720] It didn't mean you all by yourself in isolation deciding what your personal preferences were and getting to actualize them in the way we vote now.
[00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:32.560] So even in the sphere of voting, it's something different, I think.
[00:11:32.560 --> 00:11:37.600] So I'm interested as much as anything in that, how that shift happened.
[00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:39.920] Why did we conceive of rights in this way?
[00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:40.960] Yeah, interesting.
[00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:49.760] I mean, like Rousseau's vox populi as a choice, like you should be supporting the popular whatever the truth is that our group has decided.
[00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:54.160] Yeah, my much more collective sense of the truth for sure.
[00:11:54.160 --> 00:12:04.320] The sense that the people speak with one voice if they're right.
[00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:06.560] And there's a right thing to do and a wrong thing.
[00:12:06.560 --> 00:12:16.640] Even the idea of parties was really anathema in the 18th century in America, too, because the idea that there'd be sort of two legitimate paths didn't really exist.
[00:12:16.640 --> 00:12:21.360] There had to be some place of consensus that the people collectively agreed on.
[00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:32.440] So political choice was envisioned much more like that than what we do now, which is make lots and lots of individual choices and then aggregate them and see who has the majority in a kind of numerical contest.
[00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:37.880] Okay, so what triggered that socially, politically, culturally, or whatever?
[00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:39.800] Yeah, so what triggered that?
[00:12:39.800 --> 00:12:41.800] And that's, of course, a very difficult question.
[00:12:41.800 --> 00:12:42.200] Yeah.
[00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:45.960] Partly, it's the rise of commerce.
[00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:48.680] So part of the story is certainly commercial.
[00:12:49.320 --> 00:13:07.800] When cloth arrives from India in Western Europe and in the New World, and it comes in all these different new patterns, part of colonial and capitalist development, it offers new possibilities for the idea of making decisions that aren't based on moral grounds or even economic grounds.
[00:13:07.800 --> 00:13:11.320] If you prefer the blue over the red, it might just be your preference.
[00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:22.840] Part of it is the Reformation, which increased similarly the kinds of options in some sense and ideas and politics in what you could read, in what you could hear.
[00:13:23.160 --> 00:13:25.880] These are some of the root causes.
[00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:29.560] Certainly, political developments make a difference too.
[00:13:29.560 --> 00:13:49.400] But I think before you even get to the politics, before you get to the famous philosophers writing about these kinds of questions, you have people starting to live lives that involve more choice-making so that it comes to seem not a weird thing to do, but a rather ordinary thing to do the way we pick off menus of options without giving it a second thought all the time.
[00:13:50.360 --> 00:13:50.840] Right.
[00:13:50.840 --> 00:14:09.640] Okay, so your causal arrow then is going from more mundane daily choices like do I want the apple or the banana at the fruit stand, and then that somehow gets inculcated into our thoughts about choices that are much more important: spouses and political candidates or whatever.
[00:14:10.920 --> 00:14:17.920] And I will say that it's not just the practices, these kinds of things like going to a restaurant for the first time.
[00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:41.440] They're also, along with it, new ways of thinking that get conceptualized by people like famous people, some of them, people like Jon Stuart Mill or later Betty Ferdinand at different moments, who are people who look at this practice and try to extrapolate meaning from it and generally are trying to expand its horizons and say, look, there are possibilities in this.
[00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:50.480] If you can expand who gets to pick or what the options are or the domains in which we make choice, some kinds of liberation might be possible.
[00:14:50.960 --> 00:15:01.920] This is part of the abolitionist movement, part of the feminist movement, is to imagine that choice can be the foundations for certain kinds of emancipation.
[00:15:01.920 --> 00:15:02.800] Yeah, it's amazing.
[00:15:02.800 --> 00:15:05.200] I love this story of the choice of Hercules.
[00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:06.160] Here's the painting.
[00:15:06.160 --> 00:15:06.720] Oh, yeah.
[00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:08.000] I'll show everybody that.
[00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:10.480] And let me read the caption here.
[00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:20.960] It's an allegorical painting of a classical theme in which Hercules at the center has a choice between the rocky path of virtue on one side and hedonism and vice on the other, both represented as women.
[00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:26.320] Are there any paintings with like a woman standing there and two guys panting at her at her feet?
[00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.720] But look, turn the page, and you'll see.
[00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:33.760] If you turn the page, you'll see of a so-called coquette.
[00:15:33.760 --> 00:15:34.240] Yeah.
[00:15:35.040 --> 00:15:38.960] What's interesting is that the tables have been turned.
[00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:43.760] Here's a woman picking between two men, but they're not allegorical figures.
[00:15:43.760 --> 00:15:46.640] They're supposed to be actual suitors.
[00:15:46.640 --> 00:15:54.400] And whereas for Hercules, the choice is: do I do the right virtuous thing or do I do the wrong immoral thing?
[00:15:54.400 --> 00:16:01.560] For the coquette, who's this more modern chooser, it's a woman, and it's like she's in a store and she's picking between the blue cloth and the red cloth.
[00:16:01.640 --> 00:16:04.280] She's like, Do I like suitor A or suitor B?
[00:16:04.280 --> 00:16:08.120] It's not because one is superior to the other, it's just a matter of her taste.
[00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:17.160] And so it's supposed to be a kind of lightweight picture with no moral instruction, whereas the image of Hercules is, you know, a solid moral subject.
[00:16:17.160 --> 00:16:18.360] That's so interesting.
[00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:19.400] And why is that?
[00:16:19.400 --> 00:16:25.320] I mean, are these just masculine versus feminine interpretations of things, or are there a historical trend?
[00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:28.440] Both painters are men in both cases.
[00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:30.040] Both are 18th-century images.
[00:16:30.040 --> 00:16:32.760] That's why I put them back to back like that.
[00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:37.800] The newer one is the image of the coquette, and she's a kind of a new figure.
[00:16:37.800 --> 00:16:49.720] And sometimes the chooser, particularly in an era in which the chooser isn't yet really valorized, but it's a kind of a new thing, is often figured as a woman, partly because it comes out of the model of shopping.
[00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:52.920] And so women weren't necessarily being praised for this.
[00:16:52.920 --> 00:16:56.920] They were often being, you know, it was often a kind of pejorative view of women.
[00:16:56.920 --> 00:17:09.880] But the idea of the chooser in sort of this neutral territory with lots of options to browse among starts out as having a kind of feminine cast, and maybe it never really loses that entirely.
[00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:14.840] The idea that choice-making is a little like shopping and it's all a little suspect.
[00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:18.760] And what was real life like for just regular people?
[00:17:18.760 --> 00:17:21.640] Were they making these kinds of choices?
[00:17:22.280 --> 00:17:25.880] Increasingly, they were, but it depends who and where.
[00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:40.680] In the most sort of developed cities of Western Europe and North America and eventually Latin America as well, options become more a part of daily life, options even in entertainment.
[00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:43.080] This happens slowly, though.
[00:17:43.080 --> 00:17:46.960] It happens more slowly for the poor than for the wealthy.
[00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:58.720] It happens probably more in what we'd now call sort of an upper middle class than in any other class, because aristocrats, the highest ranks, are more likely to have had their lives already set for them.
[00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:04.160] You know, they were already going to be married so-and-so, inherit this property, earn this income.
[00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:06.000] There was very little that was left to chance.
[00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:10.560] That was partly why they were considered largely independent people.
[00:18:10.560 --> 00:18:13.360] For the poor, it took longer, certainly.
[00:18:13.360 --> 00:18:31.600] But by the late 19th, 20th century, even if poor people, say, weren't choosing between sumptuous kinds of cloth, they might be choosing between ribbons or buttons or stockings or cheaper goods that, and then eventually mass-produced goods that gave the same sort of opportunities for choice.
[00:18:31.600 --> 00:18:34.720] The same goes for things like picking a spouse.
[00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:38.400] It takes, it's not an overnight development at all.
[00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:54.320] But by the end of the 19th century into the 20th, it becomes pretty ordinary for most people to think you're supposed to marry somebody you have a kind of a preference for, not just the person picked out for you by your town or your parents or your priest or someone else.
[00:18:54.640 --> 00:19:00.960] And that shift from sort of arranged marriages to you pick on your own and your parents have no say in it.
[00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:02.800] When does that start to happen?
[00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:13.040] It starts probably, there's some theories that probably in England first spreads across continental Europe.
[00:19:13.040 --> 00:19:16.960] There are beginnings of it in the 18th century.
[00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:29.640] And it's still not the common practice, but anybody who's ever read a novel from the 18th century onwards, or if you think of Jane Austen, for instance, these people are already within limits, sort of contracting for themselves.
[00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:32.280] Everybody else is pressing on them in different ways.
[00:19:32.280 --> 00:19:37.880] They're not making unconstrained choices, but they have a fair amount of autonomy.
[00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:59.720] And if you think of the modern novel, it's often modern meaning 18th century onwards, it's often about a person in circumstances in which they have to make certain kinds of choices and they have some preferences, but they also feel the call of duty and other people's obligations and social pressures, and they're navigating that.
[00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:02.200] Sometimes for men, it's about choice of profession.
[00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:06.920] For women, it's almost always about choice in a husband.
[00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:10.840] Yeah, even there, though, the choice, you know, parents have some role in this.
[00:20:10.840 --> 00:20:15.720] Like, you can pick anyone from the country club that we're a member of.
[00:20:16.040 --> 00:20:20.440] But don't even think about going down to the working class place.
[00:20:20.760 --> 00:20:24.440] We still largely pick within our own social categories.
[00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:32.440] Even if we're picking increasingly, say, across religion or race, it's usually somebody you were educated with or somebody in your profession.
[00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:39.560] The sort of marriage of people from completely different classes and backgrounds is still exceptional.
[00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:49.320] Maybe we create our own categories now, but again, we don't look at the whole world and line up everybody and give them all equal weighting either.
[00:20:49.320 --> 00:20:49.800] Yeah.
[00:20:50.120 --> 00:20:52.680] You also talk about or make reference to Adam and Eve.
[00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:54.120] Is that the first choice?
[00:20:54.120 --> 00:20:55.880] At least in literature.
[00:20:56.440 --> 00:20:57.560] Probably is.
[00:20:57.560 --> 00:20:59.560] And look what a fateful one it was.
[00:20:59.560 --> 00:21:02.040] I mean, and again, who does the choosing?
[00:21:02.040 --> 00:21:03.080] It's Eve, right?
[00:21:03.080 --> 00:21:03.480] Yeah.
[00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:06.280] Eve, it's not Adam who makes the first move.
[00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:12.760] That may be the first really consequential choice in the Western tradition.
[00:21:12.760 --> 00:21:16.080] I call her an audacious autodidact.
[00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:17.360] She's my hero.
[00:21:17.360 --> 00:21:18.640] I love it that she did that.
[00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:20.400] She's just curious.
[00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:21.440] She wants to know.
[00:21:21.760 --> 00:21:24.720] But in biblical terms, at least historically, right?
[00:21:25.520 --> 00:21:27.920] This is not something to praise.
[00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:34.080] No, I mean, she brings a lot on her and onto the world when she takes that bite of the apple, right?
[00:21:35.360 --> 00:21:35.920] Yes.
[00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:37.200] And so I'm interested.
[00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:57.680] One of the things that interested me was the way in which choice seems so fundamental today to what we do, but has often been problematic for people from the Bible onwards, and especially in modern times, we still sometimes regret our choices, make choice.
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[00:22:24.560 --> 00:22:27.120] Get more sen for your dollar.
[00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:30.560] This is where the consequences aren't what we thought they were going to be.
[00:22:30.800 --> 00:22:35.760] Get blamed for choices that we've made when we didn't have very good options to begin with.
[00:22:35.760 --> 00:22:38.800] It's not like choice is smooth sailing today either.
[00:22:38.800 --> 00:22:39.440] Yeah.
[00:22:40.080 --> 00:22:45.120] Well, I was just also thinking about all the different restrictions on choice we have.
[00:22:45.120 --> 00:22:50.560] I mean, just say self, family, church, state, so on.
[00:22:50.560 --> 00:22:52.880] I mean, I can't choose to be in the NBA.
[00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:54.240] You know, I'm only 5'7.
[00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:54.640] Okay.
[00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:58.320] I mean, there's genetic restrictions on choice.
[00:22:58.320 --> 00:22:59.680] There's financial restrictions.
[00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:05.960] I mean, I'm comfortable, but I couldn't afford a private plane, right?
[00:22:59.840 --> 00:23:07.480] You know, a Learjet or something.
[00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:11.640] So I don't really have much choice in transportation between these cars and those cars.
[00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:12.440] That's my window.
[00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:12.760] Right.
[00:23:12.760 --> 00:23:14.920] So, I mean, we're restricted by all sorts of things.
[00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:18.280] I'm not free to drive on any side of the road I want.
[00:23:18.280 --> 00:23:18.760] Right.
[00:23:19.080 --> 00:23:29.240] So, I mean, we don't really think of those as restrictions on freedom, but in fact, they're purposeful restrictions that makes us, I don't know what, more secure or free in a different way.
[00:23:30.040 --> 00:23:33.960] We think of freedom of choice and choice as almost identical, right?
[00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:39.640] When we talk about freedom of choice in all kinds of different domains, but all choices, as you say, are bounded.
[00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:43.800] They're bounded by real laws, like you can't drive on the wrong side of the road.
[00:23:43.800 --> 00:23:50.760] They're bounded by sort of social laws, which are informal laws, but things we conventionally agree to.
[00:23:51.320 --> 00:23:55.480] You don't, you know, yell obscenities at people randomly walking down the street, that kind of thing.
[00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:57.480] You don't try out the fruit in a grocery store.
[00:23:57.480 --> 00:23:59.880] I mean, there are lots of things you just don't do.
[00:24:00.840 --> 00:24:15.720] And they're bound by a lot of things beyond our preferences, our sense of obligation, our financial situations, pressure from other people, including family members, traditions, politics.
[00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:31.960] Our choices are only free insofar as sometimes there's an set of options created by somebody else that we can sometimes try to access our preferences and use those to make determinations.
[00:24:31.960 --> 00:24:38.360] But it's hardly the case that we ever make choices that are simply open-ended.
[00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:41.240] In some ways, you might say that's bad.
[00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:57.280] In some ways, you might say that's good, because without some restrictions, say that traffic situation, if you had total freedom to drive anywhere you wanted, anytime on any side of the road and go through any intersection any way you wanted, no one could drive because it would be chaos.
[00:24:57.280 --> 00:25:04.400] So some of the rules are to make choice possible, to make it possible for you to decide do you want to turn left or right.
[00:25:05.040 --> 00:25:06.240] Yeah, exactly.
[00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:06.960] You wouldn't have those.
[00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:09.840] Well, that's the whole AI self-driving car thing.
[00:25:10.800 --> 00:25:16.160] It's mainly about restricting what they can do because otherwise it would just be chaos.
[00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:16.640] Yeah.
[00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:19.200] And that's why we're scared of them, partly, right?
[00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:19.760] Yeah, that's right.
[00:25:20.560 --> 00:25:25.360] They really are going to, are they going to be able to make every choice in a sound way?
[00:25:25.360 --> 00:25:26.560] I don't know.
[00:25:26.560 --> 00:25:31.360] Well, then there's all those scenarios, the kind of game theory scenarios like the trolley problem.
[00:25:31.360 --> 00:25:37.040] You know, do you run over the guy in the sidewalk or do you swerve the car and you hit the five kids on the over?
[00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:39.920] The choice you hope you never have to make, exactly.
[00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:45.920] How about extra braking systems, backup braking systems to avoid that?
[00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:50.560] That always bothered me about the trolley problem: you're not allowed to yell, get up, there's a trolley coming.
[00:25:50.560 --> 00:25:52.800] Like, how about some other alternatives?
[00:25:52.800 --> 00:25:53.040] Right.
[00:25:53.040 --> 00:25:54.880] Can we please have some better options here?
[00:25:55.520 --> 00:25:59.040] Okay, Christopher Koch and his invention of shopping.
[00:25:59.040 --> 00:26:05.280] So, this is one of your, I guess, primary causes where we begin to think differently about choices.
[00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:12.320] Yeah, so I start with this figure who's completely obscure today, but I thought he was kind of fascinating.
[00:26:12.320 --> 00:26:19.440] He's an auctioneer, and he lives in London in the 1710s, 20s, 30s.
[00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:22.080] And he's kind of got an entrepreneurial mindset.
[00:26:22.080 --> 00:26:24.000] And auctions aren't a really new form.
[00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:28.000] They're auctions going back to antiquity, and they are a lot like auctions today.
[00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:34.280] But he has this idea: what if he kind of turns the auction into an event?
[00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:36.680] And people will come for a kind of entertainment.
[00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:41.080] And the auction's going to involve selling somebody else's old stuff.
[00:26:41.080 --> 00:26:48.840] It might be their books, it might be their paintings, but it might be their household stuff, all their furniture, their dishes.
[00:26:48.840 --> 00:26:51.880] But he's going to set up days where you come look.
[00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:55.160] And then he's going to let you browse, which is a new phenomenon.
[00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:58.680] It strikes us as odd, but markets didn't let you browse like this.
[00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:00.680] But you could come and look at all the stuff.
[00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:05.000] Then you go home again, and there's a little catalog that describes all the material.
[00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:11.240] And then you'd come back and sort of compete to get what you wanted in this opportunity.
[00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:19.640] And he often advertised these as both an opportunity for choice, choice in fine China, for instance.
[00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:28.440] And he insisted that his own goods were what he called choice goods, meaning already preselected for being fabulous.
[00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:35.800] And his auctions took off, and that we know about them because the catalogs still exist in libraries and archives.
[00:27:35.800 --> 00:27:39.480] And you can go through them and see what he sold under what terms.
[00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:42.360] And sometimes people have even notated things on the side.
[00:27:42.360 --> 00:27:45.080] But I decided that he was an interesting figure.
[00:27:45.080 --> 00:27:48.520] He was kind of famous in his day, obscure now.
[00:27:48.840 --> 00:28:00.840] But he knew how to harness this idea that sounds very modern of choice to sell stuff, to say, I have great variety, and you can come in and get what you want.
[00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:03.720] Women and men both flocked to his auctions.
[00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:05.720] He was painted at the time.
[00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:18.480] And I start with him because I think, not because I think he alone invents this modern notion of choice, that would be a preposterous claim, but because I think he's sort of emblematic of a shift that's happening in commercial culture.
[00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:36.400] And he's one of the people helping run this that is towards letting people look at all this displayed goods and have the fun of selecting, as opposed to just say going to a market in a stall and saying, I need a chicken, and the chicken gets handed to you, you pay for it.
[00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:40.080] But that's not really the same thing as what we call shopping.
[00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:40.720] Right.
[00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:46.080] Of course, psychologically, this gets you to perhaps buy other things you didn't know you needed.
[00:28:46.080 --> 00:28:52.320] So this is like an anticipation of the algorithms on Netflix and YouTube and Amazon and stuff.
[00:28:52.320 --> 00:28:56.960] If you like this, I do like that because I get a lot of books.
[00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:01.040] So I'll buy a book and then a whole bunch of other books that are related to that pop up.
[00:29:01.040 --> 00:29:03.120] I go, yeah, I do want to read that book.
[00:29:03.760 --> 00:29:04.320] Absolutely.
[00:29:04.320 --> 00:29:05.760] He organized the materials.
[00:29:05.760 --> 00:29:06.880] He displayed them.
[00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:12.960] He described everything as rare, unique, distinctive, unusual.
[00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:15.600] I mean, he was really a marketer.
[00:29:15.600 --> 00:29:23.040] And I'm sort of fascinated by the idea that he almost invented the field of marketing using many of the terms.
[00:29:23.040 --> 00:29:25.840] It sounds a little out of date, but not entirely.
[00:29:25.840 --> 00:29:37.760] He sounds a little like every billboard you see driving around town when you see, like, you know, choice banking and, you know, make the smart choice, make the right choice, come investigate our auctions.
[00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:40.160] Sounds like, you know, Christopher Collins.
[00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:41.840] Well, like the airline auction year.
[00:29:41.840 --> 00:29:45.040] At the airlines, when you land, we know you had a choice in carriers.
[00:29:45.280 --> 00:29:46.880] Thank you for choosing ours, right?
[00:29:47.040 --> 00:29:49.040] When did he live again and where?
[00:29:49.040 --> 00:29:57.680] So, in the early 18th century in London, he's active in the sort of 1710s onwards, first half of the century.
[00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:08.840] The word shopping doesn't exist yet, and there aren't that many stores yet, sort of fixed location places that display goods, as opposed to markets or people who come to your house and sell you something.
[00:30:08.840 --> 00:30:17.720] Shops really grow later in the century, but auctions, I think, invent some of the marketing techniques a little in advance of shops themselves.
[00:30:18.360 --> 00:30:25.160] Can you give us an idea more broadly of what life was like in 1700s, say, London or New York?
[00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:34.840] Like, how many choices did they have in careers, jobs, or food items, or clothing items, or any kind of daily stuff?
[00:30:34.840 --> 00:30:36.280] Well, of course, it depends a lot.
[00:30:36.280 --> 00:30:37.640] Were you male or female?
[00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:38.920] Were you white or black?
[00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:41.720] Were you wealthy or poor?
[00:30:42.040 --> 00:30:48.040] Certainly, the wealthy had a certain degree of choice in goods that other people didn't have.
[00:30:48.040 --> 00:30:54.440] They could collect paintings, for instance, if they were very wealthy, but they wouldn't go into a gallery to look at them.
[00:30:54.440 --> 00:30:58.200] They would have sort of special viewings for themselves.
[00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:08.840] What interests me is the sort of mainstreaming of choice that starts to happen incrementally.
[00:31:08.840 --> 00:31:18.040] I think in the 18th century, you can start to see shopping streets, for instance, emerge in London, then in Amsterdam, in Paris.
[00:31:18.040 --> 00:31:19.640] Eventually, they come to the New World.
[00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:27.560] I live in Philadelphia, and Philadelphia had some of the finest shops of the 18th century, though it was still a tiny town.
[00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:31.800] You know, 30,000 people lived in Philadelphia before the American Revolution.
[00:31:31.800 --> 00:31:32.920] That's pretty small.
[00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:41.720] But there were shops, and they started to have, even for people who couldn't afford what was inside, increasingly they had glass fronts.
[00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:54.240] I think that's kind of important because you walked down the street and the goods were displayed in the window in an era before electricity, but you could see what was available, and they'd sometimes each be in a separate pane.
[00:31:54.240 --> 00:32:02.400] And it offered up a kind of set of possibilities that I would call almost a menu.
[00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:07.920] And you start to see other sort of places where those kinds of possibilities emerge.
[00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:12.320] By the 19th century, for instance, you can go to public dances in big cities.
[00:32:12.320 --> 00:32:20.960] You could do that as far afield as places like Santiago and Chile and into parts of Germany.
[00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:23.280] And you could choose somebody to dance with.
[00:32:23.280 --> 00:32:24.960] Now, there were a thousand rules.
[00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:26.880] You couldn't just walk up to a stranger.
[00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:31.520] You couldn't, it wasn't like it was just unconstrained choice again.
[00:32:31.520 --> 00:32:43.680] But still, the possibility of asking someone to dance in a setting that wasn't a private ballroom, that wasn't just for the extreme elites, became a new phenomenon.
[00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:50.800] So I look for all these little moments when ordinary people kind of start to do things that we do all the time.
[00:32:50.800 --> 00:32:54.960] Every time you order a sandwich, you're picking something off a menu of options.
[00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:59.440] But this was new to people in earlier moments.
[00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:02.240] And you kind of look for those places.
[00:33:02.560 --> 00:33:03.840] Yeah, right.
[00:33:03.840 --> 00:33:05.040] So interesting there.
[00:33:05.040 --> 00:33:06.560] It just comes to mind.
[00:33:06.800 --> 00:33:11.520] Charles Darwin, this is 1820s when he got out of college.
[00:33:11.520 --> 00:33:17.120] Basically, his choice was: do you want to be a physician or a theologian?
[00:33:17.120 --> 00:33:18.080] Because that's it.
[00:33:18.080 --> 00:33:22.400] That's what upper-class landed gentlemen do, right?
[00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:24.160] Well, I want to be a naturalist.
[00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:25.120] It's like, what's that?
[00:33:25.120 --> 00:33:26.720] You can't do that.
[00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:31.160] The other thing is, of course, in their studies, they didn't have choice the way we do today.
[00:33:31.320 --> 00:33:39.480] So, if you go to college, most places, whether it's community college or some research university, you look at a course catalog, catalog.
[00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:49.400] Sometimes it's called shopping period, and you pick out the courses that interest you because that's the direction you probably want to go professionally.
[00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:55.000] And that, too, is a you start to have things called electives.
[00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:58.520] Note the term election, electives, options.
[00:33:58.840 --> 00:34:05.800] By the late 19th century, Harvard's president at the time is famous for deciding that there should be elective courses.
[00:34:05.800 --> 00:34:07.960] It was a very radical idea.
[00:34:09.720 --> 00:34:17.960] But now that's a common place of education after about high school, even by the end of high school, that you have some selection in what you do.
[00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:22.040] So that goes with the idea that you will be also picking a career.
[00:34:22.040 --> 00:34:30.680] Now, all that sounds wonderful, except that it can be a burden too, to have to decide what do you want to make of your life and how and where you're going to do this.
[00:34:31.640 --> 00:34:44.440] We also put an awful lot of pressure on the individual to make good decisions at every stage that will lead to more good decisions so that they can craft their own future.
[00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:48.680] And we say about people they made bad choices when things don't work out well.
[00:34:49.000 --> 00:35:00.680] So, if you went to Harvard in the 1800s, once you chose which profession you wanted to go into, medicine or law or whatever, then the course outline curriculum was fixed.
[00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:02.920] You just everybody takes these set of courses.
[00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:03.800] That's it.
[00:35:04.120 --> 00:35:06.360] And, you know, everybody read certain books.
[00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:08.120] I mean, there were kind of classic books.
[00:35:08.120 --> 00:35:10.120] Everybody read Cicero in the 18th century.
[00:35:10.120 --> 00:35:15.360] In the 19th century, education was more specialized, but still there's a set curriculum.
[00:35:14.680 --> 00:35:21.760] This idea of picking what appeals to you is quite modern.
[00:35:22.080 --> 00:35:23.040] Yes, amazing.
[00:35:23.040 --> 00:35:30.480] Yeah, the Founding Fathers, they all read basically the same ancient Greek and Roman philosophers and classic writers and all that.
[00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:31.360] They did.
[00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:32.480] Yeah, interesting.
[00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:33.040] Okay.
[00:35:33.600 --> 00:35:35.280] I also like your discussion of religion.
[00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:41.520] I mean, we think of, you know, in America, there's like 10,000 different churches you could choose from, a menu.
[00:35:42.640 --> 00:35:46.560] But before the Protestant Reformation, it's just pretty much everyone in Europe was Catholic.
[00:35:46.560 --> 00:35:47.520] That was it.
[00:35:47.520 --> 00:35:47.920] Right.
[00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:52.080] There were some Jews, but they'd been exiled to very specific parts of Europe.
[00:35:52.080 --> 00:35:57.040] And if you were some, you know, you kept quiet, otherwise, if you had heterodox beliefs.
[00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:06.800] This part of the story, I think, the New World, which is to say what were the North American colonies, is one of the origin points more than something that came from Europe.
[00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:24.080] Already in Europe, there was, of course, by the 17th, 18th century, both Protestant strands of Christianity and Roman Catholic ones coexisted, often uncomfortably, but across different parts of the some of Germany was one, some was the other.
[00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:39.840] But the idea that all of multiple religions could coexist and people might have options, again, not just in what they believed, but even as specific as which church to join, was a pretty late development.
[00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:53.640] And Philadelphia, again, speaking of, again, it's a city that's both important and my current hometown, was a place where travelers in the 18th century record going to churches the way today.
[00:36:53.640 --> 00:36:56.640] You might have a guidebook and say, oh, I want to see that museum.
[00:36:56.640 --> 00:36:58.880] I want to visit this tourist destination.
[00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:08.440] The fact you could hear preachers from all kinds of different denominations was a kind of appealing activity.
[00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:17.880] And so, you have people who'd say, Well, I'm a Baptist, but I heard a wonderful sermon down the street at the Methodist church.
[00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:24.280] Or this preacher came to a field near where I live, and he was really marvelous, and he was something else.
[00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:26.280] It's a new light Baptist.
[00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:35.400] And that, I'm not suggesting that people picked ribbons in the same way they picked religions.
[00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:40.040] I mean, people make different kinds of value judgments about what they were doing.
[00:37:40.040 --> 00:37:56.200] But the idea, nevertheless, there's a certain kind of parallelism in the idea that you got to define yourself to a certain degree by making this series of choices.
[00:37:56.200 --> 00:37:59.960] And part of, and some of that was about religion.
[00:37:59.960 --> 00:38:05.080] As today, most people followed the faith that their parents had.
[00:38:05.960 --> 00:38:09.960] That said, there were church options within that faith.
[00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:17.960] Many people switched to kinds of evangelical Christianity in this period and left behind kind of more settled European traditions.
[00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:28.520] So I see something interesting and similar happening increasingly by the early 19th century, but as early as the 18th century.
[00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:32.520] And I think you made reference to the Baptists and Anabaptists, right?
[00:38:32.520 --> 00:38:33.880] And I guess that depends.
[00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:39.240] I think it's the Anabaptist, you should be baptized as an adult, and the other one was as an infant.
[00:38:39.560 --> 00:38:40.680] Did they really think?
[00:38:40.680 --> 00:38:42.760] I mean, did they take that literally?
[00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:48.720] Like, one of them is right and the other one is wrong, or is it just more of a subjective preference?
[00:38:49.040 --> 00:38:57.840] So, so, what made, I mean, the reason that Anabaptists get called that has to do with, and it's an this happens just after the Reformation.
[00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:05.200] So, this is before we're talking about Philadelphia as a city in the 18th century.
[00:39:05.520 --> 00:39:22.960] The idea that's prominent in a lot of strains of Protestantism, as it comes to be known after the Reformation, is the idea that freedom of conscience matters, that one shouldn't just believe things because they're told, that the conscience itself has to accept certain ideas.
[00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:25.280] Now, there were right ideas and wrong ideas.
[00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:34.640] Nevertheless, the idea that you choose your religion consciously becomes an important part of mainstream Protestant thought.
[00:39:34.640 --> 00:39:40.240] And baptism is interesting because baptism is usually the precursor to this other phase.
[00:39:40.240 --> 00:39:49.120] But the Anabaptists believe that you shouldn't even be baptized till you've consciously chosen to be the religion in question.
[00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:55.680] And it's really around that practice that the Anabaptists distinguish themselves.
[00:39:55.680 --> 00:40:07.120] It makes them very heretical in the ideas of much of Christianity because they are unbaptized people from all their childhoods.
[00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:19.520] But it does help, I think, encourage this idea that being a full-fledged person is partly about getting to define.
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[00:40:52.920 --> 00:41:07.400] What you think, what you like, what you believe, who you want to be in ways that are very particular to what comes to be kind of Western liberal capitalist tradition.
[00:41:08.040 --> 00:41:15.160] So, something like the resurrection of Jesus as atonement for my original sin.
[00:41:15.160 --> 00:41:19.480] You know, maybe it used to be, you said, well, I'm a Catholic or whatever, and that's what we believe.
[00:41:19.480 --> 00:41:23.640] And if you're Jewish, you go, well, I'm Jewish and we don't think Jesus was the Messiah.
[00:41:23.640 --> 00:41:25.880] So that's just the way it is.
[00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:34.920] To a transition to, no, I actually thought this through, I've read the arguments, and this is what I think is correct about the universe or nature or whatever, reality.
[00:41:35.240 --> 00:41:36.680] I mean, it's more than that.
[00:41:36.680 --> 00:41:43.640] It's really the suggestion, it isn't essential to me that you believe the same thing as me.
[00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:44.360] Right?
[00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:51.400] So, in other words, to be able to say, my neighbor is a Baptist, I'm not.
[00:41:51.400 --> 00:42:01.400] I'm Jewish or I'm Catholic or something else, is to suggest that their ideas are their business, a kind of privatization of the sphere of ideas.
[00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:07.720] The same way, if I don't care how you decorated your house, it's kind of your business.
[00:42:07.720 --> 00:42:10.360] I think that is the end effect.
[00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:24.000] You can't really have the privatization of religion, you know, the separation of church and state, even, until there's some sense that other people's beliefs don't impinge on me.
[00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:27.280] Your salvation doesn't depend on mine.
[00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:28.400] Right.
[00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:37.360] So, before that, though, there was that more collective social good or our tribe or whatever, unity of the polity.
[00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:39.680] And we all have to believe the same thing.
[00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:44.000] For purposes of salvation, I mean, it wasn't a small matter.
[00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:49.920] You know, they endangered heretics and people with heterodox views.
[00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:52.720] Jews sometimes endangered other people.
[00:42:52.720 --> 00:42:56.800] Was the, you know, they believed the wrong things.
[00:42:57.120 --> 00:43:06.400] You have to actually be able to separate yourself from the other in this very particular way, where belief is a personal matter.
[00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:17.040] And that's at the origins partly of this idea of choice, that you don't pick the right or the wrong way as much as you pick what works for you.
[00:43:17.040 --> 00:43:22.800] And each of us is free to make that determination.
[00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:35.440] Even in politics, again, less about that we all collectively agreed on something than that we each got to pick what we liked and then the lucky prevail numerically over the unlucky.
[00:43:36.240 --> 00:43:45.680] So the First Amendment's protection of individual rights of religion, of the media and press, of protesting, and so on.
[00:43:45.680 --> 00:43:47.680] These are all, never thought of it this way.
[00:43:47.680 --> 00:43:51.680] It's a way of saying the government's not going to make these decisions for you.
[00:43:51.680 --> 00:43:52.880] You do it.
[00:43:53.520 --> 00:43:54.240] Exactly.
[00:43:54.240 --> 00:43:56.800] And that's why some people are surprised that they're together.
[00:43:56.800 --> 00:43:57.440] You know, why?
[00:43:57.440 --> 00:44:02.360] Religion, the press, the right to associate, and speech?
[00:43:59.600 --> 00:44:05.640] That don't, to us, that's a little bit of a weird grouping.
[00:44:05.640 --> 00:44:05.960] Yeah.
[00:44:05.960 --> 00:44:16.040] But I don't think it was weird at all for the people who wrote the Constitution who saw these as about the kind of autonomy of the self.
[00:44:16.040 --> 00:44:30.120] That people must be free in public life, in their private life, to be free of government interference in what they believed, what they professed, what they read, and how they worshipped, and who they associated with.
[00:44:30.440 --> 00:44:36.840] Do you think they were consciously aware of the way you're configuring it here as we're expanding choice?
[00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:39.160] Or is it motivated by something else?
[00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:45.720] I don't think they would have thought in terms of choice, and that's why it's not the word that gets used very much in this period.
[00:44:45.720 --> 00:44:51.800] You see it in places like my auctioneer, but you don't see it as much in politics.
[00:44:52.120 --> 00:45:07.960] But I think the configuration that you just pointed to, for instance, of the First Amendment is an essential kind of precursor to the development of the, I would call it, ideology of choice or faith in choice that emerges later.
[00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:23.960] We couldn't have this kind of stake in choice's freedom, human rights part, for instance, without this first recognition of the possibility of autonomy in these areas.
[00:45:24.600 --> 00:45:25.560] Right.
[00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:27.800] All right, let's talk about back to dating.
[00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:31.640] I loved your discussion of the ballroom dance cards.
[00:45:31.640 --> 00:45:34.360] I guess it's sort of the match.com of that era.
[00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:37.080] Absolutely.
[00:45:37.720 --> 00:45:41.240] So the ball cards, yeah, not a thing people use a lot today.
[00:45:41.480 --> 00:45:48.000] But I was interested because I thought, well, they're a little bit like, again, a ballot or something.
[00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:58.800] You have this card, you go to a ball, and the woman carries the card because, again, she can be chosen, but she can't really make all the choices herself.
[00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:05.040] And the ball card allows different men to come up to her and inscribe their name for a particular dance.
[00:46:05.040 --> 00:46:09.680] And she carries the card around and it helps her remember who's chosen her for each moment.
[00:46:09.680 --> 00:46:12.240] But it's also part of a ritual around choice.
[00:46:12.240 --> 00:46:14.320] It's a way to connect.
[00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:19.120] And you might think, what does that possibly have to do with politics or anything else?
[00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:29.120] But I see it as one more place in which rules are being created for increasing choice in a new sphere.
[00:46:29.120 --> 00:46:43.280] In this case, the romantic sphere, the sexual sphere, it's a precursor, the ball is a precursor often to, there's no dating before the 20th century, so courtship, you might say, and eventually to marriage.
[00:46:44.080 --> 00:46:58.160] So sort of the idea of sort of choice that will lead to sexual and romantic unions is kind of implicit in the dance card and all the etiquette that goes with it.
[00:46:58.160 --> 00:47:13.920] If you've ever read any Jane Austen novels again, you'll know that ball scenes are filled with both rules and small ways of breaking them to convey certain ideas and to kind of get around all the restrictions.
[00:47:14.240 --> 00:47:14.800] Yeah.
[00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:20.000] And was it always the women doing the choosing among the suitors?
[00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:24.000] So, in the case of the ball, men chose.
[00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:29.400] Women had some limited ability to consent or not consent.
[00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:36.360] If they said no, they had to say they were very tired and go sit down again and not pick somebody, not let somebody else pick them too quickly.
[00:47:36.680 --> 00:47:40.040] Men couldn't pick the same woman too many times in a row.
[00:47:40.040 --> 00:47:41.960] I mean, there are lots of rules.
[00:47:41.960 --> 00:47:47.800] In this case, men have most of the power.
[00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:54.200] To this day, we still tend to assume that men are going to, for instance, ask women to marry them.
[00:47:54.920 --> 00:48:03.000] You know, the man proposes, he makes a choice, and the woman consents or doesn't consent to that ask.
[00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:05.880] That really comes out of the behavior of ballrooms.
[00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:16.440] And it comes out of early, much earlier marriage practices where women have the power of consent, but they don't really have full choice.
[00:48:18.520 --> 00:48:27.800] So, the purpose of the ballroom meetings was to then select somebody you would go out with again in some other context?
[00:48:28.120 --> 00:48:29.240] Generally, no.
[00:48:29.640 --> 00:48:39.720] It was a chance for two people to be the equivalent of alone and to have some physical contact with each other, which was otherwise pretty much impossible to imagine.
[00:48:39.720 --> 00:48:49.480] But a trip around the dance floor was a kind of, you know, things could go very wrong from there, or it could be the beginning of something.
[00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:54.680] Earlier dance forms, again, tended to be more collective.
[00:48:54.680 --> 00:48:57.320] You pass through partners many more times.
[00:48:57.320 --> 00:49:05.240] You just kept, if you think of something like a square dance, everybody's constantly swapping partners, and it's much more like a collective activity.
[00:49:05.240 --> 00:49:07.880] It's not something you do with a partner.
[00:49:07.880 --> 00:49:20.000] But with something like waltzing, which becomes fashionable in the 19th century, waltzing involves two people in a pretty intimate embrace taking a kind of private trip around the dance floor together.
[00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:22.320] And then it ends, and there's more decorum.
[00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:26.000] You know, this is not an era in which you'd say, Hey, do you want to go on a date on Saturday night?
[00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:26.960] That was fun.
[00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:31.360] This is this would be something much more formalized than that.
[00:49:31.360 --> 00:49:40.240] But it still introduces a new possibility there, this kind of selecting a person to be alone with for a small amount of time.
[00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:41.760] Right.
[00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:45.920] It just reminded me of speed dating, which is a fairly recent thing.
[00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:50.960] But, you know, just five minutes with a dozen different people, and then at the end of the night, you go, Yeah, I like that one.
[00:49:51.040 --> 00:49:59.120] The idea being that we have a fairly good intuition about who we want to get to know better or not within the first five minutes.
[00:49:59.120 --> 00:50:01.840] You don't have to spend six hours on a date and hundreds of dollars.
[00:50:02.160 --> 00:50:03.600] You pretty much know.
[00:50:04.240 --> 00:50:12.800] I mean, this, of course, it looks like today we have the ultimate sort of marketplace in things like Tinder for dating as for everything else.
[00:50:13.200 --> 00:50:19.040] Almost everything, you can find some online way to turn it into something that looks like a shopping mall.
[00:50:19.680 --> 00:50:23.680] Shop for men the same way for women, the same way you can shop for sneakers.
[00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:40.640] That said, around the time of the French Revolution, when the first laws saying fathers didn't have to give permission for couples to marry, the sort of growth of independent choice, there was a lot of discussion of, well, how are these people going to find each other?
[00:50:40.640 --> 00:50:42.480] Who's going to find the right person?
[00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:48.480] And there's, you can find ads in the newspaper where people say, looking for a wife must know how to do the following things.
[00:50:48.800 --> 00:51:05.320] Or, you know, it's sort of, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it doesn't, we can laugh, but the logic is not that different than the logic of online dating or speed dating, which is to say, how do you, how do you find the compatible person in this big marketplace where people don't all know each other?
[00:51:06.600 --> 00:51:07.800] You need some mechanisms.
[00:51:07.800 --> 00:51:16.520] It could be a newspaper, it could be a dance hall, it could be an online site, but they're working to the same purpose.
[00:51:16.840 --> 00:51:17.560] Right.
[00:51:17.560 --> 00:51:23.160] So it's the size of the database from which you have to choose with modern dating sites.
[00:51:23.160 --> 00:51:25.240] There's millions of people you could choose from.
[00:51:25.240 --> 00:51:32.440] But in a small community somewhere like, I don't know 18th century Philadelphia, the options are going to be pretty limited.
[00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:33.320] Right.
[00:51:33.320 --> 00:51:33.720] Yeah.
[00:51:33.720 --> 00:51:40.360] No, you're, I mean, if you think of village life traditionally, you know all the options.
[00:51:40.360 --> 00:51:48.120] So the idea of people arranging who should pair off with whom, mainly for economic reasons, is an entirely sound one.
[00:51:48.680 --> 00:52:05.320] If you go to a city, even if you're, say, a servant who has very few resources but shows up in Paris in the 18th or 19th century, you might know a few people from your village, but there are hundreds of people out there that don't know you and you don't know them.
[00:52:05.320 --> 00:52:08.280] How are you ever going to figure out who's who?
[00:52:08.920 --> 00:52:10.840] What will be the places?
[00:52:10.840 --> 00:52:17.800] And without a lot of, you know, schools sometimes work that function now, jobs.
[00:52:18.120 --> 00:52:22.360] But those aren't necessarily possibilities, you know, for many people.
[00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:38.040] And so the question of how to meet somebody is an important one, especially if you think that economic stability depends upon forming a unit and having children, creating a household.
[00:52:38.360 --> 00:52:39.240] Right.
[00:52:39.560 --> 00:52:48.480] And then in this trend, let's make a distinction between finding romantic partners or marriage partners and just sexual partners.
[00:52:48.480 --> 00:52:50.720] I mean, today it's like, you know, friends with benefits.
[00:52:44.840 --> 00:52:51.280] Yeah, okay.
[00:52:51.600 --> 00:52:53.280] You know, that's an option.
[00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:54.800] But that's fairly new, right?
[00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:58.160] Well, there were always, there's always been prostitution.
[00:52:58.560 --> 00:53:06.240] And some certain kinds of dance halls definitely were set up for, you know, making a choice for the evening, not a choice forever.
[00:53:06.720 --> 00:53:20.160] They weren't respectable, but prostitution certainly always worked on the theory that for men, almost exclusively, there was choice in this realm.
[00:53:20.160 --> 00:53:35.280] And 19th-century novels often have, including ones in cities, if you read Balzac or something, they're filled with sometimes just sort of street prostitutes and sometimes celebrated actresses who have affairs with lots of people.
[00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:43.520] It didn't preclude marriage too, but it was sort of choice on the side once you'd made the choice to give up other choices.
[00:53:43.520 --> 00:53:47.280] For women, it meant largely giving up other choices once you got married.
[00:53:47.280 --> 00:53:51.840] For men, maybe formally, but informally.
[00:53:52.160 --> 00:54:01.840] You know, there's a reason that many of the great paintings and operas and things of the 19th century are about fallen women, we might say.
[00:54:02.160 --> 00:54:03.840] Fallen women.
[00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:06.720] But the men are not fallen.
[00:54:06.720 --> 00:54:07.920] No, they're not fallen.
[00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:08.800] Exactly.
[00:54:09.120 --> 00:54:16.800] Well, there's probably the evolutionary psychologist can explain that for us based on who's doing the choosing and why.
[00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:21.040] I mean, women are more risk-averse and they have to be choosier than men.
[00:54:21.600 --> 00:54:31.720] Well, that's that's that's certainly, and that may be, you know, one good explanation for as to why that's no longer necessarily the case obviously has to do with the rise of birth control.
[00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:31.880] Yeah.
[00:54:32.120 --> 00:54:44.760] You know, women suffered all the consequences in a world in which women got pregnant, and if they were pregnant and left or unsupported, their options were very few.
[00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:48.760] It was catastrophic for most cases, even for a woman who's say a servant somewhere.
[00:54:48.920 --> 00:54:52.360] That's the end of her livelihood and with no support for the child.
[00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:58.280] And that's how people ended up as prostitutes in the first place because they really ran out of options in many cases.
[00:54:58.280 --> 00:55:02.440] Birth control created the possibility of choice in a new way.
[00:55:02.440 --> 00:55:25.640] And one reason we talk about abortion in relation to the term choice is partly about this idea: not only should there be choice as to what you do if you're fine to pregnant, but also the idea of women's autonomy depends on having to have choices available that would give them a kind of equal standing to men in the world.
[00:55:26.920 --> 00:55:34.120] Yeah, it reminds me of that case last month of Lily Phillips, that British woman that slept with 100 guys in one day.
[00:55:34.120 --> 00:55:36.920] And she was kind of, oh, you don't know this story?
[00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:46.200] Oh, well, it's sort of a byproduct of OnlyFans, in which you can go online and do the cam girl stuff.
[00:55:46.200 --> 00:55:48.040] And some of these women make a lot of money.
[00:55:48.040 --> 00:55:51.800] I mean, I'm talking $50,000 to $100,000 a month.
[00:55:53.480 --> 00:55:57.880] But then now there's kind of a competition to see who can outdo the other one.
[00:55:57.880 --> 00:56:03.880] And so this one woman slept with like 100 guys in 24 hours, and some other women said, well, I'm going to do more than that.
[00:56:04.360 --> 00:56:08.120] And they were kind of mobbed online as, you know, being sluts and so forth.
[00:56:08.120 --> 00:56:09.960] But, you know, there's guys that brag about this.
[00:56:10.280 --> 00:56:14.040] My body counts, you know, a hundred or a two hundred or 1,000.
[00:56:14.040 --> 00:56:17.920] And they're not mobbed as sluts or whatever.
[00:56:18.560 --> 00:56:27.360] I mean, this is where why I say in every case that choice is never unlimited, and it's never without certain kinds of value judgments.
[00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:38.080] So women have choice in sexual partners that's much greater than their mothers, grandmothers, you know, and anybody before that, to a certain extent.
[00:56:38.080 --> 00:56:42.000] And again, not everywhere in the world and not in every subculture.
[00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:44.560] So this is a very important distinction.
[00:56:44.560 --> 00:56:58.400] But in certain parts of the world, in certain groups of people, that said, women's choices are always more suspect.
[00:56:58.400 --> 00:57:00.480] And that's partly what I'm interested in, too.
[00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:21.920] How we've sort of valorized choice, enabled choice, but are always a little squeamish about women's choices, that they're excessive, that they're just acting on whim and not on anything serious, that they don't know their own minds, that they are either too lascivious or not lascivious enough.
[00:57:21.920 --> 00:57:24.400] I mean, there are lots of possibilities there.
[00:57:24.720 --> 00:57:28.320] Well, and all these transitions really come about in our lifetime.
[00:57:28.320 --> 00:57:28.800] I mean, right?
[00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:30.800] The pills is 1961.
[00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:37.760] So, in terms of what you're talking about, the modern world doesn't even really begin for women, choice, doesn't even really begin till then.
[00:57:38.400 --> 00:57:52.000] So, there's, you know, by the late 19th century, what were then starting to be called feminists started for the first time to talk about choice, choice in education, for instance, choice in profession, and then the choice to be a mother or not.
[00:57:52.560 --> 00:57:55.840] Could some women choose to forego motherhood?
[00:57:55.840 --> 00:57:57.360] Very radical idea.
[00:57:57.360 --> 00:58:07.880] By the early 20th century, Margaret Sanger, for instance, is talking about birth control, and it's not the pill, and it's a lot less good than the pill.
[00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:16.200] But she uses the term choice: shouldn't women have choice whether they want to be pregnant or not, or sometimes even just when they want to get pregnant.
[00:58:16.200 --> 00:58:20.520] Even in a married couple, could you plan when?
[00:58:20.840 --> 00:58:26.920] Which was a whole, you know, seemed an extreme idea at the time.
[00:58:27.560 --> 00:58:28.760] Choice keeps going.
[00:58:28.760 --> 00:58:33.240] Then it's can you choose a female partner as well as a male partner, for instance?
[00:58:33.320 --> 00:58:37.000] Gay rights movement moves onto that terrain.
[00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:47.960] Abortion eventually, but certainly each of these new technologies, the pill being one of them, is important to the story.
[00:58:47.960 --> 00:59:01.880] And I don't think you would get the rhetoric of choice around abortion, which really starts in the 1970s, without first the women's liberation movement of the 1960s, of which the pill was a central piece.
[00:59:02.520 --> 00:59:08.200] So the whole feminist movement and female liberation is really choice.
[00:59:08.200 --> 00:59:09.560] You're back to that word.
[00:59:09.880 --> 00:59:11.080] A lot of it is.
[00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:13.400] Yeah.
[00:59:13.400 --> 00:59:16.840] I mean, it's not the only version of feminism that ever emerged.
[00:59:16.840 --> 00:59:21.400] Versions of feminism, for instance, emerged in Soviet Russia that look different.
[00:59:21.720 --> 00:59:34.600] But in the sort of liberal capitalist tradition, feminism is both a product of our faith and choice and capitalizes it on in on it in various ways.
[00:59:34.600 --> 00:59:42.760] But it's hard to imagine mainstream feminism without the idea that women require the same kind of choices as men.
[00:59:42.760 --> 00:59:49.280] This was the argument of John Stuart Mill and Harriet Taylor, his partner, as early as the mid-19th century.
[00:59:49.280 --> 00:59:51.520] It was radical and shocking at the time.
[00:59:51.520 --> 00:59:58.640] But all they really said was: if choice is going to be so important, shouldn't women have some too?
[00:59:59.280 --> 01:00:04.640] And they argued for political choice, for instance, for women, a radical idea in its moment.
[01:00:04.640 --> 01:00:10.480] It took another, you know, for it to be universal about another hundred years.
[01:00:10.480 --> 01:00:16.000] But when was that vindication of the rights of women?
[01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:16.880] When was that?
[01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:21.440] Well, the vindication of the rights of women, which doesn't talk about choices, is 1848.
[01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:38.160] But Mill takes up this kind of new interest in choice and attaches it, as do some of the abolitionists, at almost the same moment, in the 1860s and 70s, to the idea of women too.
[01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:45.680] And by the time you're talking about suffrage movements in the late 19th century, some of which don't really come into effect.
[01:00:45.680 --> 01:00:49.920] France, for instance, women don't vote till the 1940s, but in the national elections.
[01:00:50.640 --> 01:00:58.720] But that period of time, many of the arguments are structured around the idea of women should have choice.
[01:00:58.720 --> 01:01:07.520] If they already have choice, say, in the sphere of marriage, why don't they have, or in consumer culture, why don't they have choice in the political sphere?
[01:01:08.480 --> 01:01:09.680] Yeah, back to where we started.
[01:01:09.680 --> 01:01:12.880] I mean, the idea of looking back to see how differently people thought.
[01:01:12.880 --> 01:01:17.680] It's unimaginable now that people had arguments that women shouldn't vote.
[01:01:17.680 --> 01:01:18.320] Really?
[01:01:18.320 --> 01:01:20.560] But what arguments?
[01:01:20.560 --> 01:01:22.800] I can't even conceive what they would be.
[01:01:22.800 --> 01:01:24.400] It's not even that long ago.
[01:01:24.400 --> 01:01:29.520] White women in America earned the white women citizens earned the vote in the U.S.
[01:01:29.680 --> 01:01:31.560] in 1919.
[01:01:31.560 --> 01:01:34.600] So just a little more than 100 years ago.
[01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:39.160] It was inconceivable for much of early American history.
[01:01:40.360 --> 01:01:45.480] Voting in the 18th century with the will of the people was not imagined as universal suffrage.
[01:01:45.480 --> 01:01:48.760] It was imagined as sort of suffrage for property.
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[01:02:19.320 --> 01:02:22.520] White men, heads of households.
[01:02:22.520 --> 01:02:22.920] Yeah.
[01:02:23.240 --> 01:02:23.800] Yeah.
[01:02:24.120 --> 01:02:26.360] I had Naomi Areskis on the show.
[01:02:26.360 --> 01:02:27.480] She's a philosopher of science.
[01:02:28.600 --> 01:02:31.000] Why Trust Science, I think was the title of her book.
[01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:45.000] Anyway, she's got a chapter there on medical research in the 1890s at Harvard showing why women should not go to college because the blood from their brain is shunted to their uterus during every month.
[01:02:45.560 --> 01:02:50.440] And there were like peer-reviewed papers and like scientific evidence that this is it.
[01:02:50.440 --> 01:02:51.960] It's like, what?
[01:02:52.920 --> 01:03:03.880] I mean, this was usually, you know, race theory, too, in the 19th century showed all the sort of reasons, ostensibly biological, why black people, for instance, shouldn't be enfranchised.
[01:03:04.840 --> 01:03:19.600] Arguments, so it does remind you that even what's called science will often have all kinds of biases in it that are about what people believe in any given moment, not about some kind of pure abstract realm.
[01:03:19.920 --> 01:03:27.440] Absolutely, women, the biological arguments against women voting extend well into the 20th century.
[01:03:27.440 --> 01:03:36.080] They'd be too distracted, they don't know their minds, their periods make it impossible, their responsibilities, their women are flighty by nature.
[01:03:36.080 --> 01:03:38.480] And this is part of the story.
[01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:41.040] I like this image in your book.
[01:03:41.040 --> 01:03:43.200] Your body is a battleground.
[01:03:43.200 --> 01:03:43.680] Look at this.
[01:03:44.320 --> 01:03:46.400] This is a really powerful image.
[01:03:46.400 --> 01:03:48.240] I mean, that is something else.
[01:03:48.880 --> 01:03:52.000] And with the reverse negative.
[01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:53.520] And so, what's going on there?
[01:03:53.840 --> 01:03:54.720] What is that?
[01:03:54.720 --> 01:04:02.080] So, that is an image that's fairly well known because it's by an important contemporary artist.
[01:04:02.080 --> 01:04:09.280] And it's really became a kind of icon of the women's movement in the 80s, especially.
[01:04:09.280 --> 01:04:21.360] As people started to fight over abortion, the idea that women's bodies would be battlegrounds was something of a new, it's both old and new.
[01:04:21.360 --> 01:04:32.080] Old because people have always thought about women's bodies, but new in the sense that in the 70s, it was thought that the idea of the right to choose would not be very controversial.
[01:04:32.080 --> 01:04:32.960] And why?
[01:04:32.960 --> 01:04:50.320] Because if we all believe in choice, so it was a way of framing things to say, you don't have to like abortion, you don't have to get one if it doesn't appeal to you, but all you're doing is giving people, as in every other domain, the opportunity, if they want to make that selection, to select that among the possibilities.
[01:04:50.320 --> 01:05:00.920] And it was agreed upon as a slogan precisely to get away from more controversial framings of abortion, like population control or equal rights or things like that.
[01:05:02.200 --> 01:05:11.000] What happens is that it gets countered pretty quickly by the right to life and other kinds of arguments on other grounds.
[01:05:11.640 --> 01:05:28.360] And so the notion that your body is a battleground becomes really caught up in this same question: how much choice do women get about what happens to their bodies?
[01:05:28.360 --> 01:05:32.920] Is this something to be made privately, like many of these other choices?
[01:05:32.920 --> 01:05:36.120] Or is this something that's outside the boundaries of choice?
[01:05:36.120 --> 01:05:41.320] It's an unacceptable choice because there are things in our culture that we refuse to let people choose.
[01:05:41.320 --> 01:05:46.040] You know, I can't choose to sell one of my bodily organs.
[01:05:46.040 --> 01:05:49.960] I can't choose to buy illegal drugs, except illegally.
[01:05:49.960 --> 01:05:53.080] I mean, there are certain things that we say are beyond choice.
[01:05:53.400 --> 01:06:15.640] And the question becomes whether what women do with their bodies in a variety of different ways, but especially around abortion, are a domain in which women should have choice because it's about autonomy, or because there's another living being potentially connected, should be sort of excluded from the realm of choice.
[01:06:15.640 --> 01:06:22.600] Life being the argument as something more substantial than choice in that framework.
[01:06:23.240 --> 01:06:29.480] So, in the abortion debate, it was the right to choose versus the right to the life of the fetus, I guess.
[01:06:30.360 --> 01:06:36.440] And there you have conflicting rights in a society, and I guess that's how we settle it through elections and laws.
[01:06:36.760 --> 01:06:37.640] Right, right.
[01:06:38.360 --> 01:06:42.760] I mean, it was settled initially, of course, by courts, not by elections.
[01:06:42.920 --> 01:06:43.560] Roe v.
[01:06:43.560 --> 01:06:51.680] Wade and similar kinds of decisions happened in a short space of time everywhere from Sweden to England, Italy.
[01:06:51.920 --> 01:07:03.520] Gradually, you know, by the late 70s, a lot of nations had legalized abortion as never requiring it, but legalizing it as an option.
[01:07:03.840 --> 01:07:12.560] And even in France, the leading organization around reproductive rights, I'll call them that now, was called Choisir, which means to choose.
[01:07:13.120 --> 01:07:19.440] It wasn't a uniquely American framing, though probably the American example is the most prominent.
[01:07:19.440 --> 01:07:27.280] What happened after that is that it increasingly became something for legislatures to fight over, not just courts.
[01:07:27.920 --> 01:07:47.520] We've seen all kinds of laws made, and then they get challenged or not in the courts, but laws get made that, in a sense, push courts to make new decisions about the questions of when abortion is legal, who can perform it, at what moment.
[01:07:48.240 --> 01:07:51.840] There are hundreds of tiny nuances in all of these laws.
[01:07:52.800 --> 01:07:54.960] I've written a fair amount about the abortion debate.
[01:07:54.960 --> 01:07:56.000] I'm pro-choice.
[01:07:56.000 --> 01:08:12.080] I try to recognize the arguments on the other side, but I can't help but often thinking the real motive behind it is the centuries or millennium or more long desire to control female sexuality and choice by men.
[01:08:12.080 --> 01:08:13.760] It's always been there.
[01:08:13.760 --> 01:08:19.360] And there may even be evolutionary reasons for it, you know, mama's baby, daddy's maybe, right?
[01:08:19.360 --> 01:08:20.960] Paternity uncertainty.
[01:08:20.960 --> 01:08:25.120] I got to make sure that I'm, you know, raising my own genes, right?
[01:08:25.120 --> 01:08:31.160] So men have this tendency to want to control female choice in that area.
[01:08:29.760 --> 01:08:36.120] But that's not an argument, you know, that pro-lifers don't go, yeah, that's why I want to control women.
[01:08:36.680 --> 01:08:38.280] They don't say that.
[01:08:39.240 --> 01:08:41.320] I think that's correct.
[01:08:41.320 --> 01:08:50.200] I think that the arguments on the pro-life side are interesting in their framing as politics, but that doesn't necessarily explain their initial motives.
[01:08:50.200 --> 01:09:13.880] And I would have to agree with you that there is a very, very, very long tradition in almost every culture of controlling women's sexuality, making sure we talked about the question of, for instance, why men can legitimately have mistresses and see prostitutes in 18th, 19th century Western Europe, and women, it's not possible.
[01:09:14.200 --> 01:09:16.120] Same reasons, basically.
[01:09:16.440 --> 01:09:19.560] So there may be evolutionary reasons for that.
[01:09:19.560 --> 01:09:25.080] I'm not disputing that possibility, but we code them differently in every different culture.
[01:09:25.080 --> 01:09:26.760] And we talk about them differently.
[01:09:26.760 --> 01:09:28.840] And the politics that follow are different.
[01:09:28.840 --> 01:09:35.240] So on top of our kind of natural biology, I think rests a lot of kind of history and culture.
[01:09:37.720 --> 01:09:51.720] And I would have to agree, at the end of the day, the debate about abortion is, yes, we talk about the life of the fetus, but I think women's sexuality is at the core of what we're really talking about.
[01:09:51.720 --> 01:09:58.440] Concern for newborns, for instance, is not that great in their well-being among the pro-life side.
[01:09:58.440 --> 01:10:20.720] There hasn't been a, especially outside of sort of Catholic ethics, which has its own particular arguments, but in the U.S., especially, rarely are arguments against abortion coupled with arguments about the necessity of helping mothers or doing something for babies, which suggests to me that it's much more about controlling women's sexuality.
[01:10:21.120 --> 01:10:23.680] You ever seen George Carlin's riff on that?
[01:10:23.920 --> 01:10:27.840] He says that pro-lifers are pro-life all the way up until the birth of the child.
[01:10:27.840 --> 01:10:29.840] After that, you're on your own.
[01:10:30.160 --> 01:10:31.760] That's, I mean, that's that's there.
[01:10:31.760 --> 01:10:34.240] You go, that's sort of choice ideology of the thing.
[01:10:35.040 --> 01:10:36.720] George Carlin's funny on everything.
[01:10:36.720 --> 01:10:38.400] And it's funny because it's true.
[01:10:38.720 --> 01:10:39.920] It's basically true.
[01:10:39.920 --> 01:10:40.320] Right.
[01:10:40.320 --> 01:10:43.760] So, in that case, it is hard to not see the arguments as disingenuous.
[01:10:43.760 --> 01:10:52.480] There could be a serious argument, the sanctity of life argument taken in certain directions could be a profound one.
[01:10:52.480 --> 01:10:57.120] But as you say, it's rarely framed in those terms.
[01:10:57.120 --> 01:11:02.560] I do think that it's worth asking sometimes: which things do we not want to give people choice about?
[01:11:02.560 --> 01:11:05.040] It's not like choice is always empowering.
[01:11:05.360 --> 01:11:08.720] I think, for instance, it's a good thing that you can't sell a baby.
[01:11:08.720 --> 01:11:11.200] You know, most of us would probably agree, right?
[01:11:11.200 --> 01:11:18.720] So we want there to be some moral strictures around what we can do with other humans.
[01:11:18.720 --> 01:11:31.040] But in this case, right, until there's some concern with the baby in a longer-term framework, why are we worried about this small collection of cells before the viability of life, even?
[01:11:31.360 --> 01:11:31.920] Yeah.
[01:11:32.240 --> 01:11:40.240] Another debate I've been having that's been out there in culture, so I've had several podcast guests talking about this is female sexuality, the sexual revolution, all that.
[01:11:40.240 --> 01:11:42.320] So I had Louise Perry on the show.
[01:11:42.320 --> 01:11:58.160] Her book was The Case Against the Sexual Revolution, basically, saying that, you know, the idea we were sold in the feminist revolution that women can have all the sex they want, just like men, carefree and so forth, is not good for women, right?
[01:11:58.160 --> 01:12:08.680] And then I had an ex-prostitute, Rachel Moran, who wrote a book paid for about her life in prostitution, how horrible it was, really, really bad.
[01:12:08.920 --> 01:12:16.520] Basically, she says, even if it's regulated and women have unions and it's all controlled and they make good money and so on and so on, it's still bad for women.
[01:12:16.840 --> 01:12:19.640] Then I have other guests that are going, oh, come on.
[01:12:19.640 --> 01:12:22.280] I had ALA on the show, A-E-L-L-A.
[01:12:22.440 --> 01:12:28.360] She was at one point the highest earner on OnlyFans, again, making like $50,000 to $100,000 a month.
[01:12:29.000 --> 01:12:31.640] So she says, you mind your own business.
[01:12:31.640 --> 01:12:33.400] This is my choice.
[01:12:33.400 --> 01:12:37.000] And I'll live with the consequences if there are any, but so far, so good.
[01:12:37.000 --> 01:12:40.280] And if you don't want to have sex like a man, then don't.
[01:12:40.600 --> 01:12:41.160] Right?
[01:12:42.360 --> 01:12:45.560] Yeah, some people call that choice feminism, actually.
[01:12:45.560 --> 01:12:50.360] The idea that any choice a woman makes is legitimate because a woman made it.
[01:12:51.000 --> 01:13:08.920] And other people see what you're describing in the latter case as kind of choice, but in a cultural context that's rife with misogyny and therefore not, in a sense, really a free choice.
[01:13:09.240 --> 01:13:19.560] So there are definitely, there are feminists who are very pro-sex worker, and there are feminists who see sex workers as evidence of the failures of feminism.
[01:13:19.720 --> 01:13:22.280] There's a really wide range of opinion there.
[01:13:23.800 --> 01:13:28.840] But the debate is sometimes framed around something really specifically called choice feminism.
[01:13:28.840 --> 01:13:35.960] And it's popular, especially with the younger generation, that says, you know, feminism is just having the choices.
[01:13:35.960 --> 01:13:44.760] Any choice I make is fine, even if I choose the most traditional thing or the most outrageous thing because I'm making it and I'm female.
[01:13:45.840 --> 01:14:01.280] But that doesn't always sit well with other kinds of feminists who see certain choices as leading towards essentially ways of reaffirming sexism in the world in the world.
[01:14:02.240 --> 01:14:05.360] Yeah, I guess this would be back to what's the collective good.
[01:14:05.360 --> 01:14:08.240] I mean, we outlaw prostitution.
[01:14:08.240 --> 01:14:09.200] Why?
[01:14:09.200 --> 01:14:11.840] You know, it's none of my business what consenting adults do.
[01:14:11.840 --> 01:14:17.280] And if they want to exchange, make it exchangeable for money, I don't care.
[01:14:17.280 --> 01:14:24.480] Well, but it brings down the neighborhood or it erodes social trust and solidarity, and I don't know what.
[01:14:24.960 --> 01:14:26.720] You know, they have these arguments.
[01:14:27.040 --> 01:14:30.160] I mean, so the question, I mean, I guess there are two ways of looking at it.
[01:14:30.160 --> 01:14:38.960] One, you could say it's absurd because what difference does it make to me if you could have, why can't you pay somebody for sex if you can have sex with anyone you want anytime?
[01:14:38.960 --> 01:14:41.200] So why not pay them if you want to?
[01:14:41.200 --> 01:14:47.600] On the other hand, you might say that the payment creates structures of exploitation.
[01:14:47.600 --> 01:14:47.920] Yeah.
[01:14:47.920 --> 01:14:54.320] That the same way if you said, well, why can't I hire somebody for $2 an hour at my store if they're willing to work for $2 an hour?
[01:14:54.480 --> 01:14:55.920] Why can't I pay them $2 an hour?
[01:14:55.920 --> 01:15:01.760] Or why can't they work in dangerous conditions if they're willing, they're consenting to it?
[01:15:01.760 --> 01:15:03.920] But we also look to the law.
[01:15:03.920 --> 01:15:09.120] We look to the law also to protect people from certain kinds of exploitation.
[01:15:09.120 --> 01:15:13.200] And the question is whether sex work is always a form of exploitation or not.
[01:15:13.840 --> 01:15:18.000] The same way paying somebody $82 an hour to work, I think we're pretty sure it is.
[01:15:18.320 --> 01:15:18.800] Yeah.
[01:15:18.800 --> 01:15:28.160] Well, the pro-sex workers would say that you just need tighter controls and more protections of the women.
[01:15:28.160 --> 01:15:33.400] I just had on a woman named Brooke Urich, U-R-I-C-H.
[01:15:33.640 --> 01:15:37.960] Her book is called Wink, Wink, Nod, Nod: My Life as a Sugar Baby.
[01:15:38.280 --> 01:15:39.560] Which I knew nothing about this.
[01:15:39.640 --> 01:15:41.400] Like, wow, this is incredible.
[01:15:41.400 --> 01:15:42.440] So she's against it.
[01:15:42.440 --> 01:15:46.280] She's now an activist against these sugar daddy sites.
[01:15:46.280 --> 01:15:47.320] He worked for one of them.
[01:15:47.320 --> 01:15:53.960] Well, first he was working on the site as a sugar baby called Seeking.
[01:15:53.960 --> 01:15:57.160] Seeking arrangements was the original, and then they changed it to Seeking.
[01:15:58.120 --> 01:16:08.920] And the problem is, is that the way the economic financial structure for the websites are that the men join and pay, and the women just get to be on for free.
[01:16:08.920 --> 01:16:10.520] They're the clients.
[01:16:10.520 --> 01:16:15.240] And so the company only really cares about the men because they're the ones that are paying.
[01:16:15.240 --> 01:16:25.480] And so, you know, half these sugar daddies that are supposedly these old rich guys that don't look like Brad Pitt and they're not actually rich, they don't check them.
[01:16:25.480 --> 01:16:34.840] You know, when you join, apparently you don't have to submit your 1099s or your last three years of tax returns or even a picture of you with your private jet.
[01:16:34.840 --> 01:16:39.720] So, you know, half these guys are just old married guys that don't have any money and they're just exploiting the women.
[01:16:39.720 --> 01:16:42.680] And then so the women have to figure this out on their own.
[01:16:42.680 --> 01:16:44.520] And because, of course, it's all illegal.
[01:16:44.520 --> 01:16:47.560] So they have to set it up as a gifting site.
[01:16:47.560 --> 01:16:51.240] Like, I'm going to gift you this, whatever it is you want.
[01:16:51.240 --> 01:16:56.280] And the women actually like register at different stores, like, like, like you're engaged to be married.
[01:16:56.280 --> 01:17:00.360] Like, I'm registered at Sex, Fifth Avenue, and these are the items I would like.
[01:17:00.360 --> 01:17:05.080] And then the guy buys them one of the items, and they go to the hotel and do their thing.
[01:17:05.080 --> 01:17:05.400] Right.
[01:17:05.400 --> 01:17:06.920] So it's crazy.
[01:17:06.920 --> 01:17:18.000] But her concern is that it's mostly young women and actually sometimes underage because they don't check the you know any birth certificate of anybody, right?
[01:17:18.000 --> 01:17:26.480] And they and they target college-age women saying you can pay for your expensive tuition by join this site and these guys will pay your tuition, right?
[01:17:26.480 --> 01:17:30.800] And this rarely actually happens, so it's exploitation that's the concern.
[01:17:31.120 --> 01:17:36.800] I think that's true in general of an extreme choice environment.
[01:17:36.800 --> 01:17:50.640] Um, whereas choice is basically a form of liberation, I don't dispute that, an excessive investment in choice, and choice is the kind of highest value that just anybody should be able to do anything, which is a kind of libertarianism.
[01:17:50.640 --> 01:17:57.440] Yeah, it doesn't end up treating all humans with dignity, right?
[01:17:57.440 --> 01:18:08.240] That whether that's about sex or about what you do with your body, you know, I can't sell my liver to somebody.
[01:18:08.240 --> 01:18:09.600] Well, that's probably good, right?
[01:18:09.600 --> 01:18:10.000] Right.
[01:18:10.000 --> 01:18:13.280] These are, these are, you know, I can't sell myself into slavery.
[01:18:13.280 --> 01:18:15.040] There's a lot of things I can't.
[01:18:15.040 --> 01:18:32.240] And I think we want there to be domains in which choice is not permissible, despite kind of libertarian emphases, precisely because we live in a collective world and we have to have some concern with other people.
[01:18:32.240 --> 01:18:34.560] Everything can't be for sale.
[01:18:34.560 --> 01:18:42.640] Ever notice how ads always pop up at the worst moments when the killer's identity is about to be revealed?
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[01:19:08.040 --> 01:19:25.880] So, even so, one of the executive orders of President Trump in the last two weeks or so was framed around choice, and it was framed around you'll have choice in car and choice in light bulbs and choice in appliances going forward.
[01:19:25.880 --> 01:19:29.720] So, you're like, okay, well, who's opposed to choice in appliances?
[01:19:29.720 --> 01:19:39.880] But then it turns out that that means appliances that are not bad for the environment, that don't meet certain standards.
[01:19:39.880 --> 01:19:45.560] And then that hurts the air we all breathe and the climate that we're all living in.
[01:19:45.560 --> 01:19:48.440] So, somebody's choices end up hurting somebody else.
[01:19:48.440 --> 01:19:53.240] I mean, it's indirect in that case, not as direct as the sexual exploitation one.
[01:19:53.240 --> 01:20:00.600] But it's another one of those realms in which you can say choice is basically a good thing, but unlimited choice, I don't want to buy.
[01:20:00.600 --> 01:20:07.640] I don't want people to be able to buy the most polluting and the most high-energy use and most polluting appliances.
[01:20:08.120 --> 01:20:12.920] That's where we look for regulation to keep us from having those choices.
[01:20:12.920 --> 01:20:17.640] Give us choices, but give us choices with certain restrictions on what they can be.
[01:20:17.640 --> 01:20:28.040] And so, I noticed immediately this kind of freedom of choice language popping up here, but it's less liberating than it sounds.
[01:20:28.360 --> 01:20:28.920] Oh, I know.
[01:20:28.920 --> 01:20:33.880] I've always been critical of Republicans and conservatives, you know, that we love choice and freedom and autonomy.
[01:20:33.880 --> 01:20:37.160] And it's like, oh, yeah, you mean like women's reproductive choices?
[01:20:37.160 --> 01:20:37.720] Well, not that.
[01:20:38.040 --> 01:20:39.720] How about like gay guys can get married?
[01:20:39.720 --> 01:20:41.320] No, well, not that.
[01:20:42.120 --> 01:20:45.760] So, all of a sudden, you have just as many restrictions.
[01:20:44.680 --> 01:20:49.200] We fight a lot about, I mean, we have to.
[01:20:49.360 --> 01:20:55.040] I mean, it's part of democratic politics is fighting about who gets choices and what those choices should be.
[01:20:55.040 --> 01:20:57.600] And those conversations are important.
[01:20:57.920 --> 01:21:10.160] But I think sometimes we risk having gotten to a point where rhetorically we're always convinced that more choice is better, or you wouldn't have everything from reproductive choice on the left to school choice on the right, because everybody says, yeah, choice.
[01:21:10.160 --> 01:21:11.200] We want choice.
[01:21:11.200 --> 01:21:12.080] Okay, fine.
[01:21:12.080 --> 01:21:16.240] But let's think about what the after effects are of some of these kinds of choices.
[01:21:16.240 --> 01:21:22.000] They're not always that good either for the person making the choice or for the collective good.
[01:21:22.640 --> 01:21:30.400] Yeah, I had Cass on the show talking about libertarian paternalism, which is such a crazy term because it's like, wait a minute.
[01:21:30.400 --> 01:21:36.000] But his point is that we're making decisions about restricting choices all the time anyway.
[01:21:36.000 --> 01:21:38.320] So why not do it in a rational way?
[01:21:38.640 --> 01:21:41.360] And he's right, I think, to that extent.
[01:21:41.360 --> 01:21:45.520] There's no such thing as, as I said, as a kind of unbounded choice.
[01:21:45.520 --> 01:21:47.360] Choices are always bounded.
[01:21:47.360 --> 01:21:56.880] So we do have to have conversations about which ones are ethically acceptable, which ones do we publicly steer people towards making and which ones not.
[01:21:56.880 --> 01:21:58.800] I don't think he's entirely wrong.
[01:21:58.800 --> 01:22:07.360] I mean, sometimes that kind of stuff is focused on very small bore things like do you put the candy or the apples next to the cash register?
[01:22:08.320 --> 01:22:12.640] I'm thinking more in sort of big social questions.
[01:22:13.040 --> 01:22:15.760] Where does choice fit into them in the broadest sense?
[01:22:16.080 --> 01:22:18.160] It's less kind of technocratic, maybe.
[01:22:18.320 --> 01:22:20.240] I like the example of the driver's license.
[01:22:20.240 --> 01:22:27.840] I'm in California, so I had to put the little button on my driver's license that says, I will donate my organs.
[01:22:27.840 --> 01:22:29.920] I have to opt in to donate my organs if I'm killed.
[01:22:30.280 --> 01:22:33.400] In Oregon, just up the road, it's opt-out.
[01:22:33.400 --> 01:22:37.320] You will be given your organs if you die, unless you tell us you don't want to.
[01:22:37.320 --> 01:22:39.240] And they have much higher rates.
[01:22:39.560 --> 01:22:40.600] And it's really interesting.
[01:22:40.600 --> 01:22:43.640] That's the classic example for the libertarian paternalists.
[01:22:43.640 --> 01:22:43.960] Yeah.
[01:22:44.120 --> 01:22:49.480] It's absolutely that with this kind of opt-in, opt-out possibility.
[01:22:49.480 --> 01:22:53.000] And I think that stuff's very interesting because it is important for public policy.
[01:22:53.000 --> 01:23:01.160] But they get right too, I think, even more broadly, that there's always something that they call choice architecture.
[01:23:01.160 --> 01:23:11.080] You can come back to Christopher Cox's making choice architecture when he sets up his auction house, which is to say, again, we don't make choices just in a vacuum.
[01:23:11.080 --> 01:23:16.760] They're always set out for us in various ways, and we're always being steered.
[01:23:16.760 --> 01:23:20.360] And that isn't necessarily a bad thing, but we're not very aware of it.
[01:23:20.360 --> 01:23:27.880] We don't always realize that our selections are, as your example was, you know, I bought this book, so you'll like this one.
[01:23:27.880 --> 01:23:30.120] So let me show you these ones again.
[01:23:30.520 --> 01:23:33.480] That happens to a certain extent in almost every realm.
[01:23:33.480 --> 01:23:37.560] We're always being given kind of orchestrated options.
[01:23:37.560 --> 01:23:37.960] Yeah.
[01:23:38.280 --> 01:23:42.680] There is something about the human body that makes the choices feel different.
[01:23:42.680 --> 01:23:58.040] Thinking about Alan Fisk's model, the anthropologist Alan Fisk's model of different human relationships, like communal sharing, where it's understood that you will just share food, like you and your husband, you're not going to charge him for sex or for food or whatever.
[01:23:58.040 --> 01:24:04.600] But if you went to a restaurant and you said to the owner after you ate, well, I'll have you over to my house, he'd be like, what?
[01:24:04.920 --> 01:24:07.320] No, this is not a communal sharing.
[01:24:07.320 --> 01:24:09.720] This is a financial transaction, right?
[01:24:09.720 --> 01:24:17.600] And there's something about sex, prostitution, and organ sales that makes people feel like that's in the wrong category.
[01:24:17.760 --> 01:24:25.760] You're putting it in the economic category, and it's really more of something you just do out of choice, out of free choice without an exchange.
[01:24:26.400 --> 01:24:26.800] Right.
[01:24:26.800 --> 01:24:46.240] So that's the risk, and this is something about sometimes economists use these kinds of models when they use economic models for things that aren't necessarily economic decisions, like, say, a marriage, is the risk of imagining humans as always operating in markets.
[01:24:46.560 --> 01:24:50.560] And many things we do are not really about markets.
[01:24:50.560 --> 01:24:53.200] You know, we do things that are altruistic.
[01:24:54.160 --> 01:24:56.160] We do things that are about care.
[01:24:56.160 --> 01:24:58.080] We do things that are about anger.
[01:24:58.080 --> 01:25:03.840] And even when they work against our interests, humans are complicated, right?
[01:25:03.840 --> 01:25:15.840] And we're not always acting in ways that are either rational or operating as if we were standing in a marketplace selecting among options.
[01:25:16.160 --> 01:25:32.320] And if you think of humans constantly only as market actors, only as choosers, you do end up in this kind of libertarian sphere where just selfish desires are the only thing that really matters.
[01:25:32.640 --> 01:25:34.640] People's personal preferences.
[01:25:34.640 --> 01:25:50.880] And I don't want to dispute that personal preferences are really important, but there have to be limits on when those are the absolutely the most important things for us to get along as humans in a society.
[01:25:50.880 --> 01:25:51.440] Yeah.
[01:25:51.760 --> 01:25:56.880] Remember that film, Indecent Proposal, Demi Moore, and Robert Redford, right?
[01:25:57.040 --> 01:26:02.040] Where he's, you know, I'll pay you a million dollars to have sex with your wife.
[01:25:59.840 --> 01:26:04.280] And then trouble ensues.
[01:26:06.440 --> 01:26:09.000] We don't want everything to be subject to payment.
[01:26:09.000 --> 01:26:09.480] Right.
[01:26:09.480 --> 01:26:15.560] And we don't want everything to be one of the options on the table for sale or not for sale.
[01:26:15.560 --> 01:26:18.840] And some things are legal when they're done.
[01:26:18.840 --> 01:26:24.760] You can, for instance, you can donate an organ rather than sell an organ.
[01:26:24.760 --> 01:26:29.000] But some things we don't want you to do for money or not for money.
[01:26:29.000 --> 01:26:37.640] You know, fentanyl is not quite going to be legalized tomorrow, even if it's just exchanged without cost.
[01:26:38.200 --> 01:26:56.760] And as you say, the body in particular is one place where we're really worried about various forms of exploitation, especially when they enter the economic sphere, that people will end up doing things that are really a form of self-harm because their economic desperation will drive them to do so.
[01:26:56.760 --> 01:27:07.240] And I think it's right that we leave some of those possibilities off the table, or else you really would see greater exploitation of the most vulnerable people among us.
[01:27:07.240 --> 01:27:07.800] Yeah.
[01:27:08.440 --> 01:27:10.360] All right, Sophia, last question here.
[01:27:10.360 --> 01:27:17.800] Your book focuses a lot on women and how this has changed female autonomy and choice over the centuries.
[01:27:17.800 --> 01:27:25.880] Are you optimistic going forward that more choice is going to be good for women, that the arc of the moral universe is still bending in the right direction for women?
[01:27:25.880 --> 01:27:28.360] Are you worried about changes?
[01:27:29.640 --> 01:27:39.800] I find this to be, you're asking me at a tough moment because I think we are in a little bit, and I'll talk only about the U.S., but I could talk about the world as a whole.
[01:27:39.800 --> 01:27:47.920] We're in a rather radical moment, anti-incumbency feelings, hostility to what exists.
[01:27:48.160 --> 01:27:52.480] If you, there's nothing conservative about what's happening right now, it's quite the opposite.
[01:27:52.480 --> 01:28:04.160] It might be described as a kind of radical moment of testing the boundaries of our political sphere, of our kind of social obligations to each other.
[01:28:05.120 --> 01:28:07.920] I find this to be a nerve-wracking moment.
[01:28:07.920 --> 01:28:15.200] I'm not sure what's to come, and I won't say that that's for women, but that's really for everyone.
[01:28:15.200 --> 01:28:17.840] And I can't predict.
[01:28:18.160 --> 01:28:22.480] You know, historians are better at talking about the past than what's going to happen exactly.
[01:28:22.480 --> 01:28:37.600] But that said, I feel that we're on a very uncertain course right now, and the anger and hostility towards what exists and established could lead us a lot of different directions.
[01:28:37.600 --> 01:28:56.320] And some of those could be one risk is certainly extreme libertarianism, but the other risk is absolutely the opposite, which is a kind of authoritarianism in which a lot of autonomy and choices about what one does in the private sphere start to go away.
[01:28:56.320 --> 01:28:56.960] Yeah.
[01:28:56.960 --> 01:28:58.560] I'm worried about that too.
[01:28:59.200 --> 01:29:00.480] All right, the age of choice.
[01:29:00.480 --> 01:29:03.120] Here it is: A History of Freedom of Modern Life.
[01:29:03.120 --> 01:29:03.600] Get it?
[01:29:03.600 --> 01:29:04.480] Read it.
[01:29:04.480 --> 01:29:05.040] Check it out.
[01:29:05.040 --> 01:29:06.080] It's on audio, too.
[01:29:06.080 --> 01:29:07.680] I listen to it on audio.
[01:29:07.680 --> 01:29:08.800] It's a great read.
[01:29:08.800 --> 01:29:09.760] All right, Sophia.
[01:29:09.760 --> 01:29:11.200] Thank you so much.
[01:29:11.200 --> 01:29:11.840] Thank you.
[01:29:11.840 --> 01:29:13.840] It's been a pleasure to talk with you.