The Rewatchables

‘Rocky II’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Van Lathan

December 2, 2025

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  • The hosts view *Rocky II* as the true beginning of the *Rocky* franchise as a sports action series, contrasting it with the first film's status as a small drama. 
  • The last 28 minutes of *Rocky II*, culminating in the double knockout, are considered one of the best runs in film history, despite the preceding hour being slow and focused on Rocky's personal struggles. 
  • Sylvester Stallone's physical transformation between *Rocky* and *Rocky II* sparked speculation among the hosts regarding steroid use, which they believe became undeniable by *Rocky III*. 
  • The structure and training montages of *Creed* are heavily derived from the narrative bones established in *Rocky II*. 
  • Carl Weathers is widely praised as a phenomenal athlete and actor whose career was arguably pigeonholed by the iconic Apollo Creed role. 
  • The ending of *Rocky II*, featuring the double knockdown, is considered one of the most dramatic conclusions in boxing movie history, despite the real-life rule that the fight continues if both fighters rise before the count of ten. 
  • The double knockout ending of *Rocky II* is considered one of the most dramatically satisfying conclusions in boxing movie history, despite nitpicks about the fighters' defensive skills. 
  • The discussion highlights the significant shift in the *Rocky* franchise's tone and production values between the gritty 1970s films (*Rocky* and *Rocky II*) and the glossier 1980s sequels (*Rocky III* and *Rocky IV*). 
  • The hosts debate whether Rocky Balboa genuinely loves boxing or if it is merely a necessary skill he is trapped performing, contrasting this with Apollo Creed's ego-driven pursuit of the rematch. 

Segments

HBO 80s Movie Airings List
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(00:01:25)
  • Key Takeaway: A fan-created YouTube list ranked HBO original movies from the 1980s by airing frequency, with Bill Cosby Himself ranking number one.
  • Summary: The hosts reference a video ranking HBO original movies from the 1980s based on the number of times they aired. Bill Cosby Himself surprisingly topped the list, while Eddie and the Cruisers ranked 16th. The segment highlights the high volume of airings for certain niche content on early HBO.
Stallone Movie Count and Context
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(00:03:54)
  • Key Takeaway: Rocky II marks Sylvester Stallone’s 12th film covered on The Rewatchables, tying him for fourth all-time on the show’s most-covered actors list.
  • Summary: The hosts confirm Rocky II is their 12th Sylvester Stallone movie, placing him alongside Denzel Washington in terms of frequency on the podcast. They list previously covered Stallone films, categorizing them by their defining trait, such as Rocky IV being the ‘most 80s’ and Cobra being the ‘most ridiculous’.
Rocky II as HBO 24/7 Style
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(00:05:38)
  • Key Takeaway: Rocky II functions like an extended HBO 24/7 episode, focusing on slice-of-life drama before delivering the climactic fight.
  • Summary: Van Lathan argues that Rocky II lacks significant plot outside the final fight, resembling a long-form documentary showing the life of a professional fighter. This structure marks the film as the beginning of the Rocky series shifting into a sports action franchise rather than a small drama.
Rocky II as Rocky I Remake
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(00:06:52)
  • Key Takeaway: Rocky II functions essentially as a beat-for-beat remake of Rocky I, utilizing similar narrative beats regarding the down-on-his-luck protagonist finding a girl and trainer.
  • Summary: Chris Ryan notes that Rocky II is structurally a sequel that acts as a ‘remastered version’ or remake of the original, using similar training montages and fight setup. This pure sequel approach contrasts with later sequels that sought to expand the world, reflecting a time when characters were simply brought back because audiences loved them.
Theater Reaction to Rocky II
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(00:09:01)
  • Key Takeaway: The theater audience reaction to the double knockdown and Rocky’s eventual victory in Rocky II was akin to a live sporting event.
  • Summary: The hosts recall the entire theater cheering wildly during the final moments of the fight, treating it like a live sporting event. The double knockdown sequence is highlighted as perfectly setting the stakes, leading to an explosive reaction when Rocky won.
Stallone’s Career Trajectory Post-Rocky I
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(00:12:36)
  • Key Takeaway: Stallone’s directorial effort Paradise Alley and the film Fist both flopped, creating pressure that made Rocky II’s massive success crucial for his A-list status.
  • Summary: Rocky II was made after Stallone’s Fist bombed and his directorial attempt Paradise Alley failed, leading him to insist on directing the sequel. The film became the highest-grossing sequel ever at the time, securing Stallone’s next 15 years as an A-list star.
The Coma Scene Length and Impact
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(00:13:39)
  • Key Takeaway: Adrian’s coma sequence in Rocky II lasts approximately 11 minutes of real time, which is longer than the actual final fight scene.
  • Summary: The extended coma sequence is cited as a difficult part to rewatch due to its length and lack of action, feeling like a series of deleted scenes. The segment emphasizes that the film assumes a deep connection to the characters for this slow build-up to pay off emotionally.
Apollo Creed’s Characterization in Rocky II
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(00:20:29)
  • Key Takeaway: Apollo Creed in Rocky II is portrayed as an angry, vindictive character driven by ego and hate mail, contrasting sharply with his charismatic mentor role in Rocky III.
  • Summary: Carl Weathers’ performance is praised for moving and looking like a genuine fighter, embodying an Ali/Hollywood hybrid persona. Apollo’s fixation on destroying Rocky, fueled by public criticism, provides a fascinating look at an athlete protecting his legacy.
The ‘Well, What Are We Waiting For?’ Moment
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(00:34:00)
  • Key Takeaway: Mickey’s line, ‘Well, what are we waiting for?’ after Adrian wakes up, is identified as the film’s emotional peak and the ideal candidate for the podcast’s ‘OK Motherfucker Award’ replacement.
  • Summary: This moment signals the immediate transition from the film’s slow, depressing middle section into the euphoric training montage. The hosts suggest renaming their award, currently named after a scene in Heat, to honor this definitive moment of emotional turnaround in Rocky II.
1979 Contextual Elements
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(00:44:34)
  • Key Takeaway: The 9.5% mortgage rate Rocky secured for his house purchase is highlighted as a specific financial detail that dates the film to the late 1970s.
  • Summary: Other 1979 markers include the existence of 15-round championship boxing matches and the practice of receiving physical hate mail rather than digital correspondence. The appearance of boxer Roberto Duran sparring with Rocky also anchors the film in that specific era of boxing history.
Carl Weathers’ Underrated Career
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(00:52:38)
  • Key Takeaway: Carl Weathers’ athleticism, fast hands, and comedic timing in films like Happy Gilmore suggest he was an underrated actor who deserved a bigger star career.
  • Summary: Weathers was a phenomenal athlete who moved well and possessed great footwork, making him a compelling screen presence. Listeners noted his excellent comedic timing, citing his role in Happy Gilmore. The consensus was that he was pigeonholed by the Apollo character, preventing him from achieving greater stardom.
Peak 80s Actresses Discussion
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(00:53:21)
  • Key Takeaway: Van Lathan and the group celebrated the peak beauty of Vanity and Sharon Stone in the context of 80s cinema.
  • Summary: The conversation highlighted Vanity and Sharon Stone as being at their peak beauty during the era of the film. The group expressed disbelief that Action Jackson did not spawn a sequel franchise, given its quality action elements.
Carl Weathers’ Physique and Roles
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(00:54:38)
  • Key Takeaway: Carl Weathers’ physical intimidation, stemming from his athleticism and former NFL career, may have prevented him from being cast in roles like Danny Glover’s in Lethal Weapon.
  • Summary: Weathers’ imposing physique made him unsuitable for the ’everyman’ roles that required the audience to believe he could be physically dominated. His background included playing NFL football for six or seven years, which contributed to his on-screen presence.
Food, Drink, and Cinematic Shots
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(00:56:06)
  • Key Takeaway: The ‘Paulie Snow Cone’ and the ‘spit bucket’ were nominated for the best use of food/drink, while the training montage projection was cited as the most cinematic shot.
  • Summary: The segment covered minor category nominations, including the Paulie Snow Cone and the spit bucket as a ‘drink.’ The most cinematic shot nominated was the projection of first fight footage onto Mickey as he coached Rocky.
Rocky’s Eye Injury and Durability
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(00:56:46)
  • Key Takeaway: Rocky’s repeated eye injuries throughout the Rocky series defy logic, as he sustains massive trauma yet his eyesight seems to improve over time.
  • Summary: The hosts noted that Rocky is hit in the eye hundreds of times during the final fight, yet the film treats him as a fragile human being. This contrasts with his seemingly superhuman durability, where his eyesight improves across subsequent films.
Worst Decision and Character Names
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(00:57:30)
  • Key Takeaway: Apollo Creed was nominated for the best character name, while Apollo demanding the rematch in Philadelphia was deemed the Nico Harrison Award for Worst Decision.
  • Summary: Apollo Creed was the consensus pick for the best character name, with Father Carmine as a close second. The worst decision was Apollo insisting on fighting Rocky in Philadelphia rather than a neutral venue like Vegas, despite Rocky’s compromised vision.
Adrian’s Sexuality and Character Arc
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(00:59:18)
  • Key Takeaway: Adrian’s character development suggests she was a ’late bloomer’ sexually in Rocky, and her personality undergoes a significant, inconsistent shift between the second and fourth films.
  • Summary: The hosts questioned if Adrian and Rocky had sex only on their wedding night, recalling her ‘muskrat’ behavior in the first film. Her personality seems to change drastically by Rocky III and IV, leading to frustration over her lack of direct communication with Rocky.
Weak Link and Rocky’s Durability
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(01:00:37)
  • Key Takeaway: Rocky winning the rematch while severely injured and the inclusion of the plotless Gazzo character were cited as the film’s weak links.
  • Summary: The weakest link was identified as the outcome where the one-eyed Rocky defeats a prepared Creed, which is deemed unrealistic. Gazzo’s subplot, appearing three times without impacting the main plot, was also nominated as a weak link.
Worst Aged Elements: Paulie and Weightlifting
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(01:02:21)
  • Key Takeaway: Mickey’s outdated advice that boxers should not lift weights and the scene where Adrian must return to a part-time pet store job age poorly in a modern context.
  • Summary: Mickey’s assertion that weightlifting tightens muscles and is bad for boxers is considered outdated training dogma. The scene where Adrian feels she must work part-time at a pet store to cover mortgage payments contrasts sharply with modern financial realities.
Worst Aged Elements: Extra’s Hairline
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(01:04:42)
  • Key Takeaway: An extra boxing behind Mickey’s left shoulder in a specific scene possesses one of the worst visible hairlines in cinema history.
  • Summary: The hosts pointed out a specific extra during a training scene with a distracting and poorly formed hairline. This visual distraction was deemed worse than the questionable boxing technique displayed by the same extra.
Rocky’s Brain Damage Scale
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(01:05:35)
  • Key Takeaway: Rocky’s level of brain damage significantly fluctuates across the franchise, peaking at an ‘8.5’ in Rocky II and a ‘1000’ in Rocky V.
  • Summary: The hosts created a scale for Rocky’s cognitive impairment, rating Rocky II high due to the eye injury and subsequent communication issues. By Rocky IV, Rocky is deemed recovered (a ‘1’), but Rocky V shows him at his lowest cognitive function post-Drago.
Unrealistic Sports Movie Outcomes
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(01:09:07)
  • Key Takeaway: The most unrealistic sports movie outcome cited is Rocky winning the rematch against a motivated Creed while essentially blind in one eye.
  • Summary: Van Lathan listed several unrealistic outcomes, including Team Wolf winning without their star player ‘wolfing up’ and Daniel LaRusso defeating Sato’s henchman in Japan. Rocky’s victory in Rocky II over a motivated Creed while compromised was ranked number one.
Stallone’s Filmmaking Potential
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(01:12:52)
  • Key Takeaway: Sylvester Stallone missed an opportunity to create the ‘Godfather II of sports movies’ by focusing on Rocky’s action star persona instead of exploring the sensitive storyteller perspective centered on Creed’s humiliation.
  • Summary: If Stallone had followed his more sensitive, creative side, the sequel could have focused on Creed dealing with the shame of losing to Rocky. This path would have offered a more interesting narrative than the action-heavy sequel that was ultimately made.
Best Looking Black Women of the 70s
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(01:15:38)
  • Key Takeaway: Veronica Porsche, Ali’s third wife, is considered an ‘outrageous’ next-level beauty who could move into the all-time bracket, while Jane Kennedy is ranked number one for the 1970s.
  • Summary: Veronica Porsche’s beauty was so striking that it reportedly caused Muhammad Ali to immediately divorce his second wife to pursue her. Jane Kennedy, known for being one of the first female NFL pregame show hosts, is deemed otherworldly and an all-time great.
Casting What Ifs and Director Choices
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(01:19:48)
  • Key Takeaway: Martin Scorsese would have been the superior director for Rocky II over Steven Spielberg, and Philip Seymour Hoffman would have been ideal for the role of Paulie.
  • Summary: While Spielberg might have made a grander morality tale, Scorsese’s style aligns better with the gritty nature of the film. Philip Seymour Hoffman was suggested as a strong candidate for the role of Paulie, or potentially the commercial director.
Rocky’s Post-Fight Success and Finances
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(01:34:34)
  • Key Takeaway: The narrative inconsistency of Rocky becoming broke in Rocky V is illogical given his massive popularity and endorsement opportunities following his victory over Apollo Creed.
  • Summary: After defeating Apollo, Rocky should have secured numerous endorsements and commercial deals, making his later financial ruin nonsensical. He was the most popular fighter, having beaten the Soviets on the world stage, suggesting he should have maintained significant wealth.
Nitpicks: Training and Fight Rules
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(01:37:35)
  • Key Takeaway: Rocky chasing a chicken is the worst training idea in sports movie history, and the double knockdown ending violates the real-life rule that the fight continues if both fighters rise before the count of ten.
  • Summary: The chicken chase training sequence was deemed absurd, potentially being the ‘ground zero’ for a pandemic. Furthermore, the dramatic ending where both fighters are down is technically incorrect, as the fight would resume if both beat the count.
Double Knockout Drama Rules
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(01:38:20)
  • Key Takeaway: In boxing, if both fighters rise before the count of 10, the fight continues, unlike a scenario where getting up first secures victory.
  • Summary: If both fighters in a match rise before the count of 10, the fight proceeds, meaning victory is not awarded simply for rising faster. The double knockout scenario in Rocky II is highlighted as one of the most dramatic ways a boxing match can end. The participants noted that neither Rocky nor Apollo defended well against body shots or head strikes during the fight.
Nitpicks on Adrian’s Coma
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(01:39:30)
  • Key Takeaway: The depiction of Adrian’s coma in Rocky II is unrealistic, showing her lying in bed without any visible medical tubes or life support connections.
  • Summary: A major nitpick concerns Adrian being in a coma for three weeks without any visible tubes or connections to medical equipment. The hosts questioned how she received sustenance or hydration while unconscious in the hospital bed. This lack of detail is attributed to the cinematic conventions of 1979 filmmaking.
Creed Universe TV Show
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(01:40:05)
  • Key Takeaway: A ‘Prestige TV’ show set in the Creed universe, potentially involving Michael B. Jordan, is reportedly in development.
  • Summary: The conversation notes that the Rocky franchise has covered sequels, prequels, and is now moving toward prestige television, specifically mentioning a show set in the Creed world. Michael B. Jordan is suggested to be taking on a role akin to Kevin Feige for this ‘Creed verse.’ The hosts anticipate an Oscar nomination for Michael B. Jordan for his work in the universe.
Oscar Predictions and Train Dreams
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(01:40:34)
  • Key Takeaway: The cinematographer Autumn and director Ryan are predicted to receive Oscar nominations for their work, with strong support for Michael B. Jordan’s performance.
  • Summary: The speakers express a strong desire for Michael B. Jordan to receive an Oscar nomination for his performance, despite a crowded field. They also predict nominations for the cinematographer Autumn and director Ryan. Bill Simmons surprises others by enthusiastically endorsing the movie Train Dreams, starring Joel Edgerton.
Unanswerable Questions on Characters
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(01:41:48)
  • Key Takeaway: The hosts question the viability of Adrian’s pet store, which appears to have no customers, and debate whether Rocky truly loves boxing.
  • Summary: One unanswerable question posed is whether Adrian’s pet store ever had a customer, noting the constant presence of only four dogs and seven birds. Another major question is whether Rocky loves boxing or if he is simply trapped by his physical gifts and societal expectations. Rocky’s lack of expressed hobbies outside of boxing and collecting for the mob is noted.
Memorabilia Wishlist and Life Lesson
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(01:46:47)
  • Key Takeaway: The best life lesson from Rocky II is to listen to your trainer and not let ego dictate decisions, as Apollo Creed’s ego led to his downfall.
  • Summary: Desired pieces of memorabilia include the Beast Aftershade bottle, Rocky’s fake nose/eye piece for commercials, and Apollo’s trunks. The Coach Finstock award for Best Life Lesson goes to ‘Listen to your trainer, don’t listen to your ego.’ Apollo Creed’s downfall is attributed to chasing the rematch and reading negative mentions, allowing Rocky to eclipse him.
Double Feature Choice and Diggstown
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(01:48:03)
  • Key Takeaway: For a double feature marathon, Rocky III is preferred over Rocky I because its opening sequence flows well into the beginning of Rocky III.
  • Summary: The preference for a double feature is Rocky II followed by Rocky III due to the superior opening stretch of Rocky III following the events of Rocky II. The film Diggstown, starring Cuba Gooding Jr., James Woods, and Bruce Dern, is recommended as a non-Rocky boxing double feature choice. Gladiator is suggested as an alternative double feature partner for Diggstown.
YouTube’s Impact on Movie Viewing
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(01:50:08)
  • Key Takeaway: YouTube clips, such as fight montages or famous scenes like ‘You can’t handle the truth,’ allow viewers to consume movie climaxes without watching the full narrative.
  • Summary: YouTube is cited as having a negative impact on viewing full movies, as audiences often watch only the fight or montage, rendering the first 90 minutes of Rocky II a ’tough’ watch. The algorithm feeds viewers analyses, like one detailing how Sicario’s true protagonist is Benicio del Toro’s character, leading some to watch the whole film afterward.