We Can Do Hard Things

Katie Gavin: How to Know What You Want

October 9, 2025

Key Takeaways Copied to clipboard!

  • Identifying desire and having the courage to follow it is a central theme, often requiring the painful process of chiseling away what is 'not that' until the core desire is revealed. 
  • Shame acts as the ultimate desire killer, preventing individuals from expressing or acting upon the signals their bodies and instincts provide. 
  • In relationships and creative endeavors like MUNA, finding the balance between individuality and community requires risking vulnerability and respecting the unique vision of others, akin to co-parenting or navigating generational differences. 
  • Identifying and letting go of inherited cultural characteristics, such as aversion to conflict or privileging quantitative success, is crucial for defining personal success and living authentically. 
  • True security is found in rich community and interdependence, contrasting with the isolating individualism fostered by hoarding and the pursuit of endless resources. 

Segments

Hosts’ Deep Admiration for Guest
Copied to clipboard!
(00:00:00)
  • Key Takeaway: Katie Gavin is considered a personal hero and an important artist whose work offers guidance on looking within oneself.
  • Summary: The hosts express profound anticipation and reverence for Katie Gavin, highlighting her importance as an artist, activist, and person. The conversation is anticipated to cover identifying desire, intergenerational healing, recovery, and listening to bodily signals. The episode is immediately framed as one of the most favorite conversations the hosts have had on We Can Do Hard Things.
Lesbian Culture and Revering Elders
Copied to clipboard!
(00:04:39)
  • Key Takeaway: Within lesbian culture, there is a tendency for older lesbians to be revered as hotter, wiser, and more knowledgeable.
  • Summary: The hosts joke that older lesbians are universally respected, leading to a dynamic where those slightly older are seen as having superior life experience. Katie Gavin notes that in lesbian culture, aging can lead to increased reverence and wisdom. This dynamic creates a desire in younger individuals to impress and gain the good graces of their elders.
Meeting Inspiring Young Activists
Copied to clipboard!
(00:06:46)
  • Key Takeaway: Encountering younger, non-binary activists operating with profound courage and living their truth is deeply inspiring to established artists.
  • Summary: Katie Gavin recounts meeting friends of Emily (likely Emily from the band The Chicks) who were non-binary and engaged in deep-level activism, such as flying to Egypt for humanitarian aid. Gavin felt like a ‘kid in a candy store’ witnessing their courage and commitment to living their truth. This experience highlighted the inspiring nature of the next generation’s self-expression.
MUNA’s Impact and Roller Skate Manifestation
Copied to clipboard!
(00:09:08)
  • Key Takeaway: Music, like MUNA’s ‘Silk Chiffon,’ can inspire personal manifestation, even if the resulting action leads to immediate, comical failure.
  • Summary: Glennon recounts how MUNA’s music inspired her to manifest a personality trait, leading her to buy roller skates and immediately fall hard on the strand. Katie Gavin notes the inherent danger of roller skates compared to roller blades, sharing her own experiences with serious falls. The shared desire for ’life to be so fun’ drove this temporary fixation on skating.
Clarifying MUNA’s Sexuality Statement
Copied to clipboard!
(00:11:38)
  • Key Takeaway: A statement that ‘MUNA is my sexuality’ was clarified to mean that the band’s diverse gender expressions and liberated performance energy represent a form of sexuality or freedom the speaker craves.
  • Summary: Glennon apologizes for a public statement implying MUNA represented her sexuality, explaining she meant she relates to the various gender energies expressed on stage. Katie Gavin interprets this as a desire for the uninhibited freedom MUNA displays, which older generations of queer people were often not allowed to express publicly. This liberated expression is seen as a form of sexuality or desired self-expression.
Femme/Dom Identity Explained
Copied to clipboard!
(00:19:02)
  • Key Takeaway: The term ‘Femme Dom’ signifies embracing strong feminine energy and queer identity while claiming agency and leadership, contrasting the passive role often assigned to femininity.
  • Summary: Katie Gavin explains that ‘Femme Dom’ means embracing queer identity alongside a powerful feminine energy that is used as a source of power, not passivity. The ‘Dom’ aspect relates to taking an active, initiating role, historically perhaps adopted by femmes when butches faced greater physical danger in public. Glennon’s ability to pass as straight grants her different safety privileges compared to more visibly queer individuals like Naomi and Josette.
Desire Identification and Recovery
Copied to clipboard!
(00:27:23)
  • Key Takeaway: The inability to identify personal desire stems from an internal life that has become small, often due to addiction or codependency, requiring one to learn the hard way what ’not that’ is.
  • Summary: The conversation circles back to how people fail to identify what they want, which is often rooted in an internal life that has shrunk around an addiction or singular focus, like a person. Katie Gavin describes identifying desire as a sculptor’s process: constantly chiseling away what is ’not that’ until the true form emerges. In recovery, the initial challenge is learning to trust oneself again after past choices led to a mess.
Co-writing Struggles and Artistic Agency
Copied to clipboard!
(00:33:59)
  • Key Takeaway: Pursuing individual artistic desire, even when it conflicts with group expectations (like co-writing), is necessary for personal creative fulfillment and growth.
  • Summary: Katie Gavin struggled with the label’s push for co-writing sessions, experiencing physical exhaustion as a bodily signal that it wasn’t right for her at that time. She felt guilty for not being able to create collectively like others, viewing herself as an ‘individual sport athlete’ in art. Releasing her solo album, What A Relief, was a necessary step to reconnect with her core love for music, despite delaying the MUNA album.
Generational Healing and The Baton
Copied to clipboard!
(00:44:35)
  • Key Takeaway: Generational healing involves recognizing that ancestors did the best they could with the tools they had, allowing the next generation to carry the baton further.
  • Summary: The song ‘The Baton’ uses the metaphor of a relay race to illustrate that each generation fulfills the part meant for them, going as far as they can before passing it on. The lyric, ‘I’ll tell my daughter she must be her own mother,’ reflects the wisdom that one can only teach what they know, acknowledging the limitations of the preceding generation. This perspective shifts focus from generational failure to generous acknowledgment of past efforts.
Emotional Flow and Softest Self
Copied to clipboard!
(01:11:50)
  • Key Takeaway: A genuine emotion flows through the body in a maximum of 90 seconds; anything longer is ‘spinning,’ often triggered by old wounds hitting the ‘baby lizard’ (softest self).
  • Summary: The hosts discuss the concept that true emotional cycles last only 90 seconds, implying that prolonged distress is self-induced ‘spinning’ or rumination. When the ‘softest self’ feels threatened, a ‘spiky self’ is deployed as a defense mechanism, often without conscious awareness. Bringing these old, disproportionate reactions into the open is necessary to stop the cycle and allow the relationship to be a safe space for vulnerability.
Soft Self vs. Spiky Self
Copied to clipboard!
(01:13:41)
  • Key Takeaway: The ‘spiky self’ is a defense mechanism deployed when the vulnerable ‘softest self’ feels threatened.
  • Summary: The ‘softest self’ is defined as the person one feels safe being vulnerable with. When this soft self is threatened, an individual instinctively deploys a ‘spiky self’ as a protective measure. Recognizing when one is being ‘spiky’ reveals an underlying fear that the softest self might be exposed.
Desire, Shame, and Body Signals
Copied to clipboard!
(01:14:13)
  • Key Takeaway: Listening to bodily signals indicating something is not right is essential, and clearing shame allows for freer expression of these internal messages.
  • Summary: The ability to listen to body signals, whether a ‘baby lizard’ reaction or a general feeling of ’not right,’ is a skill to be worked on. Shame layered on top of these internal messages actively prevents freedom and expression of desire. Clearing shame accelerates the ability to communicate received messages without judgment.
Lineage and Inherited Wealth
Copied to clipboard!
(01:16:06)
  • Key Takeaway: Unlearning the characteristics of white, wealthy culture—like conflict aversion and prioritizing external metrics—is necessary to define personal success.
  • Summary: Katie Gavin seeks to carry on the independence of spirit from family women and her father’s tender, poetic heart. She identifies negative cultural traits absorbed from her wealthy Chicago upbringing, such as privileging quantitative success over physical feeling. The goal is to prioritize a rich community over endless resources that negate the need for connection.
Hoarding and Global Dynamics
Copied to clipboard!
(01:20:37)
  • Key Takeaway: Western concepts of endless conquest and hoarding mirror global conflicts, and recognizing personal hoarding is necessary for systemic change.
  • Summary: The drive for ‘more’ and constant conquest reflects colonialism even in personal life, which is linked to hoarding resources. The inability for wealthy individuals to define ’enough’ prevents them from speaking out against global issues. Replacing the individualistic need to hoard requires learning deep dependence on community for security.
Activism and Sustainability
Copied to clipboard!
(01:26:22)
  • Key Takeaway: Sustainable activism requires structuring one’s life to reinforce values through accountability and human connection, especially with affected communities.
  • Summary: It is confounding to see people unable to express outrage, though some social circles are more vocal than others. Maintaining sustainable focus on issues like the genocide requires direct human connection, such as regularly speaking with Palestinian families. Accountability structures like Resource Generation and high-energy activities like direct actions help prevent slipping away from core values.