We Can Do Hard Things

How to Stay In Love: Mandy Patinkin & Kathryn Grody

October 16, 2025

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  • Sustaining a long marriage requires actively fighting for connection and weathering the 
  • as exemplified by Mandy Patinkin and Kathryn Grody's 45-year relationship which included two separations. 
  • The cultural pressure on women regarding aging and life milestones (like those mentioned in Kathryn Grody's new show) is being challenged by those who embrace aging as a continuation of life rather than a decline. 
  • The recurring marital conflict between Mandy and Kathryn centers on Kathryn's excessive speaking driven by a fear of quiet, contrasted with Mandy's deep need for quiet and space, highlighting the challenge of balancing extroverted and introverted needs in a partnership. 
  • The species adapts and finds renewal even after devastation, symbolized by flowers growing in burnt areas of LA, suggesting hope amidst sadness. 
  • Mandy Patinkin issues a powerful plea for elders who have less to lose to use their voices and speak up for those who are too frightened to do so. 
  • True political action, as exemplified by Mandy Patinkin's past behavior, involves small, consistent acts of humanitarianism and compassion, not just grand statements. 

Segments

Guest Introduction and Praise
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(00:00:01)
  • Key Takeaway: Mandy Patinkin and Kathryn Grody are celebrated for their commitment to marriage, parenting, and global advocacy, stemming from 45 years together.
  • Summary: Mandy Patinkin is an acclaimed actor known for roles in Evita and Homeland. Kathryn Grody is an Obie Award-winning actor and writer active in advocacy. Their joint podcast, Don’t Listen to Us, offers unvarnished advice on life and love.
Kathryn’s New Show on Aging
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(00:05:33)
  • Key Takeaway: Kathryn Grody’s one-woman show, A Radical, Rollicking Rumination on the Optimism of Staying Alive, confronts cultural discomfort with aging and the pressure to achieve milestones by a certain age.
  • Summary: The show explores the transition into elderhood, challenging the notion that aging is a shameful or humiliating process. Grody notes that younger audiences respond strongly, rejecting the cultural timeline that dictates success by age 35.
Dog Ownership and Parenting Parallel
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(00:10:47)
  • Key Takeaway: The act of raising children and loving a dog share fundamental similarities related to commitment and nurturing decent human beings.
  • Summary: Kathryn Grody initially resisted getting a dog but realized the effort involved in caring for the pet mirrored the effort in raising good sons. Witnessing her son help an elderly person confirmed that the true measure of parenting is raising decent human men.
Marriage Conflict: Time and Clutter
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(00:15:40)
  • Key Takeaway: A recurring marital issue involves differing sleep schedules and Kathryn Grody’s need to save physical artifacts like newspapers, contrasting with Mandy Patinkin’s tendency to discard them.
  • Summary: Mandy goes to bed around (7:30) or (8:00) PM, while Kathryn stays up until (1:00) AM, often using that time to sort through piles of newspapers. Kathryn fears losing tangible history, while Mandy views the old papers as recyclable clutter.
First Meeting and Relationship Origin
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(00:20:06)
  • Key Takeaway: Kathryn Grody first saw Mandy Patinkin in a 7 Up commercial in 1969/1970 and later explicitly stated he was her ’type’ while dating another man, leading to their eventual relationship.
  • Summary: Kathryn initially rejected the idea of dating an actor, believing one was enough in the family, despite being struck by Mandy’s performance in a workshop. They remain friends with her previous boyfriend, Michael Yule, who attended their wedding.
Recurring Marital Arguments: Talking vs. Quiet
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(00:26:50)
  • Key Takeaway: The couple’s primary recurring conflict revolves around Kathryn’s tendency toward excessive speaking, driven by a fear of quiet, which contrasts with Mandy’s deep appreciation for silence and negative space.
  • Summary: Kathryn enjoys turning her mind inside out through constant sharing, while Mandy values quiet as an essential element, referencing the concept of ’negative space’ from landscape architecture. They agree to work on these dynamics, with Kathryn aiming to leave more space for others and Mandy agreeing to be more interactive socially.
Anxiety Over Time Passing
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(00:31:39)
  • Key Takeaway: Kathryn experiences a ‘hysteria about time,’ leading her to try and ‘pack in’ every experience, which Mandy wishes she could temper by embracing the abundance of time she has left.
  • Summary: This anxiety manifests as an urge to consume all media and information, stemming from a fear of losing people and time. Kathryn acknowledges this grasping for the impermanent is a source of suffering, echoing Buddhist principles.
Judaism, Civic Duty, and Global Crisis
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(01:02:50)
  • Key Takeaway: Their respective Jewish upbringings—Mandy’s conservative background and Kathryn’s social justice-focused upbringing—inform their strong commitment to civic responsibility and speaking out against injustice, including the conflict in the Middle East.
  • Summary: Kathryn’s father, a D-Day veteran, instilled a belief in democratic participation and standing up to injustice. They emphasize the Jewish principle of Tikkun Olam (repairing the world) and the need to share resources, while condemning the use of antisemitism claims to excuse ‘heinous wars against humanity.’
Hope Amidst Sadness
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(01:07:25)
  • Key Takeaway: Human species adapts well, evidenced by new species emerging in burnt areas of LA.
  • Summary: The speaker reflects on past generations successfully stopping unjust wars and achieving civil rights, urging continued action. Despite profound sadness over current events, nature demonstrates resilience, with flowers growing in previously burnt parts of Los Angeles. This adaptation suggests a capacity for renewal even after destruction.
Speaking Up on Conflict
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(01:08:48)
  • Key Takeaway: Mandy and Kathryn’s public stance on the Middle East conflict was important and profound.
  • Summary: The hosts acknowledge the viral impact of Mandy and Kathryn speaking out regarding the situation in Gaza and Palestine. Mandy expresses a deep wish for the killing to stop on both sides, stating he cannot bear the horror. He emphasizes that leaders on both sides are unwilling to seek peace, prioritizing annihilation over humanitarian solutions.
Humanitarian Solutions
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(01:11:38)
  • Key Takeaway: Peace requires focusing on the future and supporting existing humanitarian organizations.
  • Summary: The path forward involves creating possibilities for people of unlike minds to coexist, focusing on the present moment rather than historical wrongs. Organizations like Oasis of Peace (Neve Shalom) and the Orchard of Abraham demonstrate successful Israeli-Palestinian collaboration in education. Turning to violence and revenge signifies a loss, necessitating a return to humanitarian problem-solving.
Women Leading the World
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(01:13:35)
  • Key Takeaway: Kathryn suggests women should lead the world for 200 years due to a better ability to compromise and nurture.
  • Summary: Kathryn proposes that women possess a superior ability to compromise and communicate, essential traits for resolving conflict. She notes that women are genetic nurturers who do not require excessive power or control. This perspective contrasts with the historical pattern of conquerors taking land at great human cost.
Political Awakening
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(01:15:08)
  • Key Takeaway: Mandy Patinkin’s political awareness was revealed through an early, small act of stopping a bus for an older person.
  • Summary: Kathryn contrasts her own 1960s political awareness with Mandy’s initial self-description as non-political. She recounts an incident where Mandy insisted a bus driver stop for an older person trying to board, which she immediately recognized as a political act. This demonstrated that political action is rooted in immediate, compassionate behavior.
Plea to Elder Listeners
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(01:16:30)
  • Key Takeaway: Elders with security should use their voices to speak for younger listeners who fear professional or personal repercussions.
  • Summary: Mandy makes an urgent plea to older listeners who have achieved stability and have less to lose in a democracy. He asks them to take up the slack for younger generations who may be afraid to use their voices due to fear of job loss or social standing. Those who have had a glorious existence should use their speech to advocate for humanity.