A Slight Change of Plans

Brené Brown and Maya Talk “Heated Rivalry,” Mental Spirals, and Moral Beauty

February 25, 2026

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  • We should anchor our self-identity to our fundamental 'why' (e.g., emotional connection) rather than solely to what we do (e.g., being a violinist), as roles and labels are subject to change and loss. 
  • Rumination, the obsessive looping of negative thoughts, can be broken by inviting awe-inspiring experiences, particularly witnessing 'moral beauty' (extraordinary acts of human kindness or resilience), which dampens self-immersion. 
  • When supporting someone through unexpected change, it is crucial to avoid imposing one's own mental framework and instead engage in deep, deliberate listening to understand their specific needs. 

Segments

Introduction and Book Context
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(00:00:00)
  • Key Takeaway: Brené Brown was eager to converse with Maya Shankar about her new book, The Other Side of Change, due to the relevance of her research on shame and vulnerability.
  • Summary: The episode features a special conversation between Maya Shankar and Brené Brown, prompted by the launch of Maya’s book, The Other Side of Change. Brené Brown praises the book as a rare combination of storytelling, cognitive science, and wisdom, specifically highlighting the value of its appendix. Maya explains that the book was inspired by noticing universal psychological connections across seemingly disparate stories shared on her podcast, A Slight Change of Plans.
Rapid Fire Favorites
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(00:04:42)
  • Key Takeaway: Both Maya Shankar and Brené Brown are currently obsessed with the TV show ‘Heated Rivalry’ on HTML.
  • Summary: During a rapid-fire segment, Maya reveals her current binge-watch is ‘Heated Rivalry,’ which she watched obsessively. Their favorite meal preference leans toward Mexican food, with Maya favoring vegetarian cheese enchiladas and Brené opting for beef fajitas. Maya’s ideal superpower has shifted from mind-reading to achieving high-quality sleep while traveling, marking a transition into her 40s.
Inspiration for Writing the Book
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(00:07:30)
  • Key Takeaway: Maya Shankar felt compelled to write The Other Side of Change to illuminate universal psychological lessons found across diverse guest stories on her podcast.
  • Summary: Maya initially did not plan to write a book, preferring the podcast format, but recognized recurring, universal patterns in how people navigated change. She felt a book was necessary to connect new stories with existing ones and explicitly detail these shared psychological lessons. This project became a passion project, driven by the realization that people share similar psychology during hard times, irrespective of the specific event.
Violinist Dream and Identity Loss
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(00:11:11)
  • Key Takeaway: Losing her childhood dream of being a professional violinist forced Maya to learn that anchoring identity solely to ‘what we do’ is destabilizing when life throws a curveball.
  • Summary: Maya’s childhood was centered on the violin, an instrument connected to her beloved grandmother, leading to acceptance at Juilliard and mentorship from Itzhak Perlman. An acute hand injury at age 15 ended her professional aspirations, revealing that her entire sense of worth was entangled with the instrument. She learned that expanding self-identity to include the ‘why’ (emotional connection) allows for softer landings when external roles are lost.
Self-Worth and Self-Affirmation
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(00:17:38)
  • Key Takeaway: Self-worth should not be thumbtacked to uncontrollable events or roles, and self-affirmation exercises—listing meaningful identities not threatened by change—can provide necessary perspective during crises.
  • Summary: Maya describes how anchoring fundamental human needs like belonging and worth to external factors is unsustainable over a lifetime. Following a miscarriage, Maya’s husband engaged her in an unintentional self-affirmation exercise by listing things she was grateful for that were not threatened by the loss. This practice helped zoom out her perspective, counteracting the tunnel vision caused by focusing intensely on motherhood.
Rumination vs. Processing
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(00:22:57)
  • Key Takeaway: The focusing illusion causes massive significance to be assigned to a crisis, initiating rumination, which is distinct from productive thinking because it involves returning to the same thought loops without resolution.
  • Summary: Rumination is fueled by uncertainty, as the brain prefers a sure negative outcome over ambiguity. The key differentiator between productive thinking and rumination is the feeling: rumination is anxiety-driven and involves seeking reassurance that is never enough, whereas productive thinking feels calmer. Inviting awe dampens the ego-centric parts of the brain, providing the necessary perspective to step outside immediate anxieties.
Surprise in Research Findings
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(00:38:16)
  • Key Takeaway: Maya was surprised to discover the profound redemption and transformation experienced by people on the other side of harrowing, unchosen changes, a realization she later experienced herself.
  • Summary: Despite being skeptical of platitudes and lacking a spiritual safety net, Maya was moved by how many people felt transformed for the better after experiencing severe change. These individuals would never have willed the negative event, but they emerged with newfound mental freedom and capabilities. Maya experienced this herself, realizing three years after her miscarriage that she was the happiest and most whole she had ever been.
Apocalypse as Revelation
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(00:41:36)
  • Key Takeaway: The Greek root of ‘apocalypse’ means ‘revelation,’ suggesting that the hardest moments in life can be viewed as opportunities to reimagine who we can become.
  • Summary: Maya quotes her book, noting that a negative change can feel like the destruction of the known world. However, the etymology of apocalypse instructs that change can reveal potential within us. This perspective encourages listeners to see difficult moments as chances to unlock potential change rather than merely something to endure.