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[00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:09.760] Welcome back to a special Thursday episode of Startups for the Rest of Us, where we continue on with Tiny Seed Tales season five as we follow Harris Kenny on his journey to grow Outbound Sync.
[00:00:09.760 --> 00:00:14.160] We've had a great response to these episodes from founders and TinySeed investors alike.
[00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:22.640] If you're interested in diversifying your portfolio and investing in ambitious early-stage B2B SaaS companies, we're currently raising fund three for TinySeed.
[00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:26.880] We recently returned more than 100% of our first TinySeed fund.
[00:00:26.880 --> 00:00:28.800] And frankly, we're just getting started.
[00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:34.560] If you're interested in joining us, check out our thesis at tinyseed.com/slash invest.
[00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:38.640] And if you fill out the form there, it goes directly to my co-founder, Einar.
[00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:43.840] You can also reach out to Einar directly at e-in-ar at tinyseed.com.
[00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:45.120] Let's dive in.
[00:00:45.120 --> 00:00:45.840] It is weird.
[00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:48.400] I do wonder, like, oh, is this the best idea I'm ever going to have?
[00:00:48.400 --> 00:00:52.320] Maybe, like, I mean, hopefully not, but like, maybe this could be like a really big thing.
[00:00:52.320 --> 00:01:02.320] I mean, we're having calls now with like pretty big companies, and I do know that like there's like features in Trello that if I shipped them right now, I would turn them into revenue immediately.
[00:01:04.240 --> 00:01:09.840] Welcome back to Tiny Seed Tales, a series where I follow a founder through the roller coaster of building their startup.
[00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:18.320] I'm your host, Rob Walling, a serial entrepreneur and co-founder of TinySeed, the startup accelerator for ambitious SaaS bootstrappers.
[00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:23.200] Here in season five, I've been talking with Harris Kenney, founder of Outbound Sync.
[00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:27.520] Last time I spoke with Harris, he had just closed his biggest contract to date.
[00:01:27.520 --> 00:01:31.360] Now, he's hit another impressive milestone.
[00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:34.480] Hey, Rob, quick clip for the pod.
[00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:35.920] 20K.
[00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:38.320] Let's go.
[00:01:38.960 --> 00:01:39.520] I don't know.
[00:01:39.520 --> 00:01:44.880] I'm still sinking in, but really, really feeling a little overwhelmed.
[00:01:44.880 --> 00:01:49.840] And also, like, what's the next thing about hitting 20K MRR?
[00:01:50.160 --> 00:01:53.280] So, yeah, hit it ahead of schedule.
[00:01:53.600 --> 00:01:56.080] Had been hoping to hit this in May.
[00:01:56.320 --> 00:02:00.520] That would be, you know, at kind of the end of our Tiny Seed year, but it's February.
[00:02:00.520 --> 00:02:02.360] Today's February 20th.
[00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:04.520] So I hit it ahead of schedule.
[00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:15.800] And I've had a sheet of paper that says 20,000 sitting over my desk for, actually, I don't remember when I put it up, but for a while.
[00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:18.280] So now I get to take it down and put up the next one.
[00:02:18.280 --> 00:02:19.320] Next goal is 30K.
[00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:23.560] Gonna celebrate, gonna get dinner with my wife just to kind of like hit the milestone.
[00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:28.920] I never really celebrated getting into tiny seed because it always felt like the beginning of the next thing.
[00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:34.360] Didn't quite feel like a full accomplishment on its own, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna celebrate this one for sure.
[00:02:36.920 --> 00:02:39.080] You sound excited.
[00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:40.520] You should be.
[00:02:40.520 --> 00:02:42.840] It's a big deal, man.
[00:02:43.480 --> 00:02:44.680] It was really gratifying.
[00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:45.640] I mean, it was so funny.
[00:02:45.640 --> 00:02:49.880] Like, of course, like at the very end, I'm like stuck at 19.9, like for like a week.
[00:02:49.880 --> 00:02:50.440] Of course.
[00:02:50.440 --> 00:02:51.880] It was like so funny.
[00:02:51.880 --> 00:02:55.560] And then finally it like popped and it was like, oh yeah, totally.
[00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:59.960] I mean, it's not the end, but it definitely felt it was like the first major, major revenue milestone.
[00:02:59.960 --> 00:03:09.240] And I think because it was like externally like validated of like, yeah, like this is like a new, I mean, the tiny seed is vested in whatever, like 100 or 200, I don't know how many companies at this point.
[00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:12.440] So it was like a helpful thing of like, that's a real number I should focus on.
[00:03:12.440 --> 00:03:22.440] And so that was like a really helpful thing for me to have like a really simple, really clear goal because there's so many other things going on that it was, it's, it's like noisy sometimes.
[00:03:22.440 --> 00:03:22.840] Yeah.
[00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:24.360] Did you celebrate?
[00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:25.400] Not yet.
[00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:25.880] Okay.
[00:03:25.880 --> 00:03:35.560] Aloha I was like, we had already been getting dinner with my wife and we brought our one-year-old because our older kid was, our older daughter was with grandma.
[00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:41.480] And so, like, my instinct was like, oh, well, let's just like have, let's just have, call this dinner that we're already having anyway.
[00:03:41.480 --> 00:03:46.800] Let's just like call this the celebration dinner, which is like not the best, you know, it's like kind of a cop out.
[00:03:46.880 --> 00:03:48.080] It's like, what's wrong with you?
[00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:52.080] Why, like, why can't you just be like happy about this and be a normal person and be like, you did it?
[00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:52.560] It's great.
[00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:55.440] Like, go do something, get something for yourself or do something.
[00:03:55.440 --> 00:03:58.320] So that's like a thing I think I need to like look in and work on.
[00:03:58.480 --> 00:04:00.560] But anyway, but I was like, okay, so we're not going to, I'm not going to do that.
[00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:01.120] That was my instinct.
[00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:02.320] And then I pulled back from it.
[00:04:02.320 --> 00:04:10.640] So we are going to like make a plan and do it and do a dinner and just get a chance to like kind of reflect on getting here because it kind of reflects like we're not, I'm not fully done.
[00:04:10.640 --> 00:04:18.320] 30 is we're profitable when the plane's in the air, but I, but 20 is big and I want to do something for it.
[00:04:18.320 --> 00:04:23.520] You hit 20K and then within days, you sent me this in Slack.
[00:04:23.520 --> 00:04:29.760] Quote, I'm quoting you, overall things are good, but I've also felt very anxious since hitting 20K.
[00:04:29.760 --> 00:04:32.000] Like I'm close, but not there yet.
[00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:33.200] Runway's still an issue.
[00:04:33.200 --> 00:04:35.120] If I fail now, it would be excruciating.
[00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:41.040] So I'm having to up prices and sell better and make harder product calls because I want to play to win and not play to not lose.
[00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:43.120] I really don't want to go raise more money.
[00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:48.960] And I'm up against the wall in terms of personal expenses with me being the number one drain in the business due to having two young children.
[00:04:48.960 --> 00:04:51.440] This is what I call the arrival fallacy, or not, I call it.
[00:04:51.440 --> 00:04:53.360] It just is what's, you know, generally called.
[00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:57.840] It's like, dude, did you even celebrate for a day for 24 hours?
[00:04:57.840 --> 00:04:59.520] No, you started worrying about it.
[00:04:59.520 --> 00:05:00.080] And it's good.
[00:05:00.080 --> 00:05:01.440] There's a balance here, right?
[00:05:01.440 --> 00:05:04.720] If you don't ever worry about it, then you don't get there.
[00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:09.920] Part of the stress, the Yerkes-Dodson curve, right, is that you have enough stress to make you perform at a high level.
[00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:13.600] And then too much stress, eventually you, you collapse, you implode, right?
[00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:16.480] So runway's still an issue.
[00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:18.240] And that's, I can, I can imagine that.
[00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:25.440] But do you, this is why I was asking, like, did you take enough time to at least say, man, 20K, I made it?
[00:05:25.760 --> 00:05:29.040] Yeah, I mean, no, like, definitely, definitely not.
[00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:35.640] And as you think about this, like, if I fail now, it would be excruciating.
[00:05:29.840 --> 00:05:36.280] I would agree with that.
[00:05:36.440 --> 00:05:40.840] I don't see that happening at the way you've been executing, you know, based on the way you've been executing so far.
[00:05:40.840 --> 00:05:47.720] But 30K feels within, it doesn't feel easy, but it feels simple.
[00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:50.360] The simple, it's a straight path, right?
[00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:55.400] So we get some companies who come into Tiny Seed where I see a straight path to some number.
[00:05:55.560 --> 00:06:05.800] I think you get to be 10K MRR, or I think this can even be 100K MRR business, but you're not going to make it past that because of market size or some other thing.
[00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:09.240] And then we talk about how are you going to actually get there?
[00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:09.880] You're going to have to pivot.
[00:06:09.880 --> 00:06:10.680] You're going to have to change strategy.
[00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:11.800] You're going to have to add more integrations.
[00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:13.400] You're going to have to do whatever.
[00:06:13.400 --> 00:06:15.240] For you, I don't see that.
[00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:17.640] There's no like limit right now.
[00:06:17.640 --> 00:06:27.000] And so 30K feels pretty much like blocking and tackling, showing up every day and doing what, doing the same thing you've been doing for the past six to 12 months.
[00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:28.360] That's how I see it.
[00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:29.400] How do you see it?
[00:06:29.400 --> 00:06:30.440] No, I think that's right.
[00:06:30.440 --> 00:06:35.160] ChatGPT thinks I'll get there in June if I did a little Kagger thing for me.
[00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:36.120] Great.
[00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:36.760] Yeah.
[00:06:37.080 --> 00:06:38.680] No, I think that's right.
[00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:40.200] I think that we have the right combination.
[00:06:40.200 --> 00:06:54.040] I mean, there's like two decisions that I made probably six months ago around starting Salesforce and then probably three months ago around starting building for other platforms besides, or in addition to SmartLead.
[00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:59.960] And I think those two decisions back then are why we are where we are now.
[00:06:59.960 --> 00:07:14.960] I think if I hadn't made those decisions now, I think I'd be in a very different position because we're seeing, like, especially on the sequencer side, like we're seeing like customers who had been using SmartLead are now asking us, oh, we're actually going to move everything over to instantly.
[00:07:14.960 --> 00:07:17.760] Or for all new clients, we're going to move them over to this new platform.
[00:07:17.760 --> 00:07:23.680] And like, had I not started building that back in like December, I would have lost that revenue.
[00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:27.600] Like, we totally would have, I think, plateaued over the course of.
[00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:31.040] like January, February, and potentially like would have had been down.
[00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:33.840] So I think because of those decisions, I do agree.
[00:07:33.840 --> 00:07:44.480] I do think now with this set of options, we've got like enough options that we can kind of flex between that we support in terms of the integration sets on either side of where we sit that I do think we can get to 30k because of that.
[00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:45.280] I do agree.
[00:07:45.280 --> 00:07:56.240] I think it's just like getting these features out, notifying customers that they're out, posting about it on LinkedIn and YouTube and doing a little bit of co-marketing with the platforms too to help get in front of their customers.
[00:07:57.280 --> 00:07:59.440] How much are you burning each month right now?
[00:08:00.960 --> 00:08:02.720] I mean, it's around 30, right?
[00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:04.720] And 30K per month that you're about.
[00:08:04.880 --> 00:08:05.200] Yeah.
[00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:06.640] Or like spending.
[00:08:06.640 --> 00:08:11.200] So we're negative 10 now, basically.
[00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:15.360] And so as we increment up, I am slowly extending that runway.
[00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:15.760] Yeah.
[00:08:15.760 --> 00:08:17.360] How long is your runway right now?
[00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:23.200] Right now, I would say it's probably like six months now.
[00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:29.200] And that's assuming like no prepaid, most, almost all of our customers are month to month right now.
[00:08:29.200 --> 00:08:30.560] So that's assuming no prepaid.
[00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:32.960] Although I do have like one annual that's supposed to come in at some point.
[00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:33.920] It's like a net 45.
[00:08:33.920 --> 00:08:35.520] So I kind of forgot about it.
[00:08:35.520 --> 00:08:37.920] But yeah, so like six months at that rate.
[00:08:37.920 --> 00:08:40.080] It could go like around like 60K at the bank right now.
[00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:48.400] And like there are levers I could pull with my own like personal finances if I had to, like before having to go out and like do a raise money conversation or whatever.
[00:08:48.400 --> 00:08:48.880] Or, yeah.
[00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:59.200] So, so right now I'm trying to like increment like up on prices, figure out the things that we have to do to like get Salesforce out, like new Salesforce customers, because they're asking for like very specific things.
[00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:04.600] And then, like, I'm having to like sell better because I get on a call and I say, Oh, it's 800 bucks a month now.
[00:09:04.920 --> 00:09:14.360] And whereas like the first couple of Salesforce seats I sold, I did for 150, which I knew was low, but it was just like, I've got to get some revenue on this because I've just been spending engineering months on it.
[00:09:14.440 --> 00:09:16.440] I just, I need somebody to use it.
[00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:19.720] So, that was like a calculated, maybe bad, but calculated choice.
[00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:22.520] But now I have to like follow up and I'm like using like a digital sales room.
[00:09:22.520 --> 00:09:24.760] And I'm like, hey, like, you talked about these two things being important.
[00:09:24.760 --> 00:09:25.880] Like, are those still important to you?
[00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:35.240] I'm having to like, like, sell like and not just sort of be like, uh, blab for 30 minutes on a demo and be like, Do you want to like pay or or not?
[00:09:35.880 --> 00:09:37.960] So that's that's like, it's like challenging a little bit.
[00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:40.840] I mean, it's not that complicated, but it's, it's definitely like it's harder.
[00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:43.560] Like increasing prices is not as easy as just increasing prices.
[00:09:43.560 --> 00:09:43.880] That's right.
[00:09:43.880 --> 00:09:46.360] It's a bigger lift to change the sales expectations change.
[00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:47.960] Yeah, exactly.
[00:09:47.960 --> 00:09:52.120] You said, I really don't want to go raise more money.
[00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:55.560] And I don't have a strong opinion, to be honest.
[00:09:55.560 --> 00:10:01.640] If you were to come to me and say, I really want to raise more money, I'd be like, great, you're going so fast and you're in such a big space.
[00:10:01.640 --> 00:10:02.360] You can do it.
[00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:04.280] And I don't think it'll be that hard.
[00:10:04.280 --> 00:10:07.800] But if you come to me and say, I really don't want to raise money.
[00:10:07.800 --> 00:10:12.440] And if you came and said that and you were like about to run out of money, I'd be like, well, this is not smart.
[00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:13.400] You're making a bad decision.
[00:10:13.400 --> 00:10:17.480] But you're, you're on the cusp there where you have six months and I think you're going to make it.
[00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:20.600] So either way you do it, it's your choice.
[00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:28.280] I'm willing to give you advice on it, obviously, but I don't, I don't have that strong, oh, 98% of the time I would do this or that in this situation, right?
[00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:34.280] But I am curious to hear you say, I really don't want to go raise more money.
[00:10:34.280 --> 00:10:34.680] Why?
[00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:43.640] Yeah, I feel like when we get to 30K, I actually would be open to having the conversation then from a position of strength of like, look, we got to this point.
[00:10:43.640 --> 00:10:44.280] I did it.
[00:10:44.280 --> 00:10:47.440] My like, I mean, it's been in April 2019.
[00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:52.400] I went out on my own as like I started my first company, April Fool's Day, accidentally.
[00:10:52.400 --> 00:10:55.520] On May 1st, 2019 was my first day fully on my own.
[00:10:55.520 --> 00:10:59.440] About a year like later, I discovered Star Wars for the rest of us.
[00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:04.160] And I would walk around a park by our house with our then one-year-old and I would listen to the pod.
[00:11:04.160 --> 00:11:07.440] But anyway, so I'm coming up on six years since I went out on my own.
[00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:09.920] And I feel like if we get to profitable, like I will have done it.
[00:11:09.920 --> 00:11:16.000] I will be a non-technical founder of a software company in 2025.
[00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:19.280] I will have the schedule flexibility to like spend time with my kids.
[00:11:19.280 --> 00:11:20.320] We have our house.
[00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:22.400] We live very fortunate to live in a good part of Denver.
[00:11:22.400 --> 00:11:27.920] I will like have it be the end of the beginning in my mind.
[00:11:27.920 --> 00:11:36.080] And I think if I can get there and then I can be more strategic about like, okay, we're going to raise money to go solve this problem or to like do this faster.
[00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:42.480] That feels like a very different position than we're going to raise money because I, because I, because I have to get to this point.
[00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:52.560] I mean, maybe at this point, there would be somebody who'd be willing to write the kind of check that Tiny Seed wrote for us a year ago, but like not, there's just not that many people out there like that.
[00:11:52.560 --> 00:11:58.560] And I, and I'm watching other companies in our space, in the outbound space, raise that kind of money and I'm watching how it's affecting how they make decisions.
[00:11:58.560 --> 00:12:01.600] And to me, it just feels like it would be a distraction.
[00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:03.280] And I don't think I need to do it.
[00:12:03.280 --> 00:12:10.240] I think I just need to stay disciplined and just focus on like the most important thing to do today, this week, this month.
[00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:14.880] I think if I do that, I don't need money to do that.
[00:12:14.880 --> 00:12:16.320] So that's just kind of where my head's at.
[00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:19.760] I think it's possible if we get there, I kind of, it's the end of the beginning.
[00:12:19.760 --> 00:12:20.800] I have this company now.
[00:12:20.800 --> 00:12:24.960] And then maybe from this, that vantage point, I look out and I say, ooh, this is kind of cool.
[00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:26.800] What if we raise money to go tackle this or whatever?
[00:12:26.800 --> 00:12:28.800] But I just like, I don't know what that is yet.
[00:12:28.800 --> 00:12:32.760] So of all the, you kind of have some objections to raising money that you listed.
[00:12:32.760 --> 00:12:39.160] And of all of them, the only one that I agree with is that it would be a distraction because it always is.
[00:12:39.160 --> 00:12:43.640] Everything else you said, I don't actually think is true.
[00:12:43.640 --> 00:12:44.920] If you want to know the truth.
[00:12:44.920 --> 00:12:45.160] I do.
[00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:45.640] I mean, I do.
[00:12:45.640 --> 00:12:47.560] I don't, I mean, I don't know what I'm doing.
[00:12:47.560 --> 00:12:49.000] That's the only thing I know for sure.
[00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:49.560] Totally.
[00:12:49.560 --> 00:12:58.600] No, but you said, will I be able to find many investors that would write a check and not, I think what you're implying is and not expect me to raise a series A and AT.
[00:12:58.600 --> 00:12:58.760] Yeah.
[00:12:58.760 --> 00:12:59.080] That's right.
[00:12:59.080 --> 00:13:00.680] You non-venture track.
[00:13:00.680 --> 00:13:05.240] And the answer is yes, you can absolutely find them and you would.
[00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:06.680] You'd be able to raise this.
[00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:11.080] The way you're growing and the space you're in, you would be able to raise money.
[00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:15.480] I'm not saying it'd be 48 hours to closing the deal, but you would.
[00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:24.120] You mentioned getting to profitability and feeling, ooh, you know, kind of, I think it would like be calm in your soul and then you'd be able to set sights on the next thing.
[00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:27.960] Investors at this stage, they don't, you don't need to be profitable.
[00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:30.200] You're not burning 50K a month.
[00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:32.280] You're burning 10K a month with six months runway.
[00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:33.480] You're in fine shape.
[00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:40.840] So like every objection that you have, I just want to, and again, I don't care if you raise money or not.
[00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:47.960] Like I'm not trying to convince you either way, but what I do want you to have are the facts or at least how I view the reality of the situation.
[00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:56.200] I don't want you to have objections against something that may not be true, you know, and those are the reasons you're not doing it.
[00:13:56.200 --> 00:14:00.680] So that's the only reason I call it out because someone might be listening to this thinking the same thing, you know?
[00:14:01.000 --> 00:15:47.880] And so if if money really is the number one stressor in your life right now, you get to think about it of like, hey, if I had a couple hundred grand, 250, 400K in the bank, not in your personal account, obviously, but in the business account, you know, how would that change it it is weird I do wonder like oh is this the best idea I'm ever gonna have maybe like I mean hopefully not but like maybe this could be like a really big thing I mean we're having calls now with like pretty big companies and I do know that like there's like features in Trello that if I shipped them right now I would turn them into revenue immediately like I literally have people being like hey just like tell me when it's ready there's like a version of me that or there's a version of this company where I see that more clearly than I'm seeing it right now and I'm not just so focused on like like my current month American Express bill or whatever in our last episode Harris had done most of the prep work for sock 2 and was entering the observation period I wanted to follow up to see how that process was playing out I don't give myself like a ton of credit but I think there's a couple of big things that I got right and they're all connected which is that I felt like this scaled outbound kind of growth hacking approach was going to go mainstream and like if that was true then a few things then I would have to make a few decisions Salesforce integration and SOC 2 being I think like the two big ones and I do think that is true like bigger and bigger and bigger companies with more and more budget are adopting these tools or hiring agencies and so sock 2 is part of that and like I think we talked about it briefly last time but you know I think it's totally made our company better our product better we're handling security issues better I'm really proud of that and it'll be great to have the report and be able to like put it out there but like on the sequencer side, none of the tools that we integrate with have it.
[00:15:47.880 --> 00:15:50.600] So it's really like unique for us to get that.
[00:15:50.600 --> 00:16:03.160] We're going to start getting pulled into more procurement now and like I know that their sales team is going to be up on a call and they're going to talk to some enterprise buyer and they're going to be like, well, we don't have sock 2, but if you're using Outbound Sync, Outbound Sync is the thing that connects to your system and they have it.
[00:16:03.160 --> 00:16:07.560] And so I think they're going to start pulling us in more than they do right now.
[00:16:07.560 --> 00:16:26.120] They're being friendly and they've sent some stuff our way, which I'm grateful for, but I think it's going to become more of like it'll be in their internal wiki or Slack or whatever of like, yo, bring Harrison to sit on a demo so we can close this deal, I think, because otherwise they're going to say, no, we're not going to give you right access to our system.
[00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:31.480] Can you tell the listeners or explain to them who this you said that you said they are going to bring us in?
[00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:32.120] Who is they?
[00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:32.600] Oh, sure.
[00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:32.920] Sorry.
[00:16:32.920 --> 00:16:33.160] Yeah.
[00:16:33.160 --> 00:16:36.040] So the sales engagement platforms that we integrate with.
[00:16:36.040 --> 00:16:39.960] So that would be right now, SmartLead, Instantly, Email Bison, and Sasmail.
[00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:42.920] So since the last time we talked, those three other tools are all new.
[00:16:42.920 --> 00:16:44.680] And none of them are SOC2.
[00:16:44.680 --> 00:16:48.360] But if you're SOC2, somehow that helps?
[00:16:48.680 --> 00:16:49.160] Yeah.
[00:16:49.160 --> 00:16:52.280] I think that like these mid-market.
[00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:54.920] So we've closed a couple of mid-market deals since we last talked.
[00:16:54.920 --> 00:17:00.120] Like Cindoso is one, which is pretty cool because they're like early adopters of tools.
[00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:14.120] And so if you look and see their testimonials on some of the different like outbound sites, I think it's like a really good indicator that they signed up for us because they like they tend to pick winners, I feel like.
[00:17:14.120 --> 00:17:19.160] Like they have a really strong culture in their go-to-market org is like, anyway, so to me, I was like, oh, cool.
[00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:22.600] Like we're kind of in this club now where their team was like, yeah, we need this.
[00:17:22.600 --> 00:17:28.440] And so, but like you, you get in this procurement process, they see a demo, they'll look at instantly or smart lead and they say, yeah, this looks great.
[00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:34.040] We're landing in spam with our current approach, using our primary domain and using whatever tool we're using.
[00:17:34.040 --> 00:17:37.640] But in the next call, I'm going to bring in our Salesforce admin and they're going to have questions.
[00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:41.000] And that person is the one that kills the deal for the sequencer company.
[00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:46.880] And so I think that's that point where they would, where the sequencer company would say, hey, actually, App on Sync solves this problem.
[00:17:44.840 --> 00:17:47.680] Here's a trust center.
[00:17:47.760 --> 00:17:54.480] If we want, you can have Harrison on a call and he can explain how we can follow your data governance requirements, basically.
[00:17:54.480 --> 00:18:01.280] And so it'll become like an ace, I think, an ace in the hole for them to get those deals across the board when they're selling direct.
[00:18:01.600 --> 00:18:04.560] I do, I'm a big, big, big believer in the value of agencies.
[00:18:04.560 --> 00:18:12.880] But if this keeps mainstreaming, like I think it is, I also think that some of these teams are going to buy direct from the platforms and not just ask an agency to run it for them.
[00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:15.440] But we're also watching our agencies move up market.
[00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.560] And like they've told me that they're now putting App on Sync in their decks.
[00:18:18.560 --> 00:18:23.520] And I'm watching them onboard bigger and bigger companies than they were 12 months ago.
[00:18:23.520 --> 00:18:27.360] And now they're like consistently saying, We got another one and we need App on Sync.
[00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:30.960] And so we're helping them move up market, which is pretty awesome.
[00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:38.320] You know, a lot of the stuff you describe of how you're growing and the success you're having might sound to someone like you happen to be at the right place at the right time.
[00:18:38.320 --> 00:18:40.400] There's a lot of right place at the right time with you.
[00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:42.640] That's not an accident and that's not luck.
[00:18:43.120 --> 00:18:45.280] There's a little bit of luck involved in all of this, let's be real.
[00:18:45.280 --> 00:18:50.880] But I think that you have made pretty strategic bets on where the puck was going.
[00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:53.680] And there's a chance it didn't, it wouldn't go there.
[00:18:53.680 --> 00:19:03.360] But it seems like a lot of the stuff that you do, the bets you make, if they work out, they have pretty significant asymmetric upside.
[00:19:03.360 --> 00:19:04.560] Would you agree with that?
[00:19:04.560 --> 00:19:05.840] Yeah, definitely.
[00:19:05.840 --> 00:19:08.080] Best one, 2013.
[00:19:08.080 --> 00:19:09.280] Married my wife.
[00:19:09.280 --> 00:19:10.640] That's worked out really well.
[00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:10.880] Yeah.
[00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:13.120] So I'm a gambling man.
[00:19:13.520 --> 00:19:14.320] No, I agree.
[00:19:14.320 --> 00:19:19.760] I think that I've definitely, like, it's funny because I'm actually not a risky person.
[00:19:19.760 --> 00:19:21.360] Like, I don't, I like being on my feet.
[00:19:21.360 --> 00:19:22.720] Like, I don't like extreme sports.
[00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:24.560] I don't like like mountain biking and things like that.
[00:19:24.560 --> 00:19:28.640] But there's certain things where I think I say to myself, like, you got to go for it.
[00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:42.120] And so, I've made some big bets with this company and in other parts of my life over the years where, like, in general, like, I'm a pretty steady Eddie, not a thrill seeker, but there's certain things where it's like, dude, you just either put chips in or just like get off, get away from the table.
[00:19:42.120 --> 00:19:43.720] And this has definitely been one of those.
[00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:48.840] Running that agency, I think, gave me some insight into for three and a half years before this.
[00:19:48.840 --> 00:19:51.960] I think gave me insight a little bit into what was going on for sure.
[00:19:56.760 --> 00:20:01.400] Another bet that Harris made was building an integration for the HubSpot app marketplace.
[00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:11.080] This took a bunch of engineering time and effort, and I was wondering if it had paid off over the last few months.
[00:20:11.080 --> 00:20:12.760] It's different.
[00:20:12.760 --> 00:20:15.560] And so, like, the discoverability is much lower.
[00:20:15.560 --> 00:20:20.440] But I think that what it's helped with, like, we've had a couple people that just like randomly stumble upon it and download it.
[00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:25.480] I think it's just more helped with like credibility and like getting through the process than anything else.
[00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:32.440] Because, like, when we weren't in it and we would go to install it, it would give this like warning of like, this is a random, you know, app.
[00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:33.640] And that like goes away.
[00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:36.120] And that came up and like people would mention it.
[00:20:36.120 --> 00:20:37.880] And so I think it's helped with that.
[00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:39.560] It's helped with like SEO.
[00:20:39.560 --> 00:20:41.640] So I'm glad we did it.
[00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:45.080] We were essentially an unlisted app for like a year before we did it.
[00:20:45.080 --> 00:20:47.880] And we're going to end up doing the same thing with Salesforce.
[00:20:48.120 --> 00:20:59.400] Although I'm starting to talk to their team now about getting into their app partner program and being like the app exchange, official app exchange partner for Salesforce, which was, I think, when we like first talked about it, you're like, doesn't this take like a year?
[00:20:59.560 --> 00:21:07.240] I was like sort of misunderstanding, like you can be an unlisted app whatever you want, but to be in, it does take a year to be like a real, they do a security review and stuff.
[00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:13.880] So yeah, I think like worth it, but only after we had like super validated that HubSpot users had this problem.
[00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:17.120] Like in and of itself, it is not driving demand.
[00:21:17.120 --> 00:21:19.600] But I think that with Salesforce, it will be different.
[00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:26.880] I think when we become a Salesforce app exchange partner, I think it will mean it will move the needle more for us, just based on like how I'm seeing it.
[00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:29.040] Tell me about your Salesforce integration right now.
[00:21:29.040 --> 00:21:30.640] You're an unlisted app.
[00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:31.040] Yeah.
[00:21:31.360 --> 00:21:41.840] And you were telling me offline that in fact you built this integration, which I'm sure was not easy to build because I've seen the Salesforce API back in the day with Drip.
[00:21:41.840 --> 00:21:42.800] We were going to integrate with them.
[00:21:42.800 --> 00:21:45.680] And I was like, oh no, there are things you cannot unsee.
[00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:52.640] We looked at their Derek and I looked at their docs and we're like, ah, so I don't think it was the easiest thing to build.
[00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:57.280] And in fact, you had asked some folks, should I build this?
[00:21:57.280 --> 00:21:59.200] And they were like, no, we wouldn't use it or something like that.
[00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:02.880] Like, can you tell that story of how it was completely not validated and you built it anyway?
[00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:05.680] And then I want to hear, was it worth it?
[00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:06.000] Yeah.
[00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:14.080] I think that might be the highest risk engineering time I've spent since starting this was on Salesforce.
[00:22:14.080 --> 00:22:17.680] So I went into the SmartLead Slack community, which is super active.
[00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:22.000] And I think like at least once, but maybe twice, I asked like, hey, we're working on Salesforce.
[00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:24.400] You know, we're the people who made the HubSpot integration.
[00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:25.840] Now we're going to Salesforce.
[00:22:25.840 --> 00:22:27.200] You know, who's interested?
[00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:29.200] And like literally nobody responded.
[00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:34.640] Not even like a reaction emoji of like a rocket ship or whatever, which you kind of like, these communities, it's like a lot of rah-rah stuff.
[00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:36.240] It was just like nothing.
[00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:38.160] It's a total lead balloon.
[00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:42.400] And like part of it was like, hmm, okay.
[00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:43.840] Like literally nothing.
[00:22:43.840 --> 00:22:50.080] And I asked around and like at the time, like a lot of our agencies were like, oh, well, you know, a lot of our clients aren't using Salesforce.
[00:22:50.080 --> 00:22:51.840] So like, I don't know if we would need it yet.
[00:22:51.840 --> 00:22:58.400] But I think like this goes back to like my one core thesis of like this scaled outbound movement would growth hacking movement would go mainstream.
[00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:00.000] And if that was true, what else would be true?
[00:23:00.600 --> 00:23:07.720] And this fits in with that one idea, which is like, well, that means bigger companies with Salesforce will also want it.
[00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:11.640] And we had like one example of a prospect who was like that.
[00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:19.080] And then what really clinched it for me was when we got a support ticket of a screenshot of Salesforce.
[00:23:19.080 --> 00:23:20.360] And I was like, what the heck?
[00:23:20.360 --> 00:23:23.480] Like literally, how is our data in a Salesforce account?
[00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:29.480] And they were like, oh, well, we're actually using HubSpot's data sync to get it in there.
[00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:35.480] And a couple of other users validated that of like, oh, yeah, that's the only reason why we bought the HubSpot integration is because we want it in Salesforce.
[00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:38.600] And I was like, oh, but they were, I didn't know that.
[00:23:38.600 --> 00:23:41.080] And so then it was like, okay, okay, okay.
[00:23:41.080 --> 00:23:42.920] This is like hidden, masked.
[00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:47.160] Like hacking your tool to get a result that you could get.
[00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:47.720] Oh, man.
[00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:47.960] Yes.
[00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:50.200] So it's like, oh, there is demand, actually.
[00:23:50.520 --> 00:23:52.200] So then, so then we decided to start building it.
[00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:53.640] And it was definitely harder than I thought it would be.
[00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:54.280] It took more time.
[00:23:54.280 --> 00:23:57.560] And like, even as we rolled it out, I'm like, cool, we have it.
[00:23:57.560 --> 00:23:59.320] We log emails to the email object.
[00:23:59.320 --> 00:24:02.520] And then people are like, well, why do you log emails as emails?
[00:24:02.520 --> 00:24:04.600] We want you to log emails as tasks.
[00:24:04.600 --> 00:24:06.840] And I'm like, why would I do that?
[00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:11.720] And then I learned how the data model works and like, oh, actually, tasks are really useful.
[00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:12.600] So it's like, okay, great.
[00:24:12.600 --> 00:24:13.800] Now we have emails as tasks.
[00:24:13.800 --> 00:24:15.400] And then they're like, oh, well, that's great.
[00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:16.760] But like, you know, whatever.
[00:24:16.760 --> 00:24:26.440] So, so that's why I say like when we throw engineering hours at this, like I know that there's revenue there because I have literally prospects who are like, as soon as you support the lead object, we will sign up.
[00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:29.480] But right now we have to use accounts and contacts or whatever.
[00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:32.200] And so like we're slowly expanding our footprint in Salesforce.
[00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:42.360] I still consider it a beta because I don't consider it fully feature complete, but I think that like in a month or two, we will cover the like overwhelming majority of stuff that comes up in that first call.
[00:24:42.360 --> 00:24:48.240] And now I feel like I'm wearing an account executive hat again, going back to like, I mean, literally 12 years ago when I did that.
[00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:52.080] And I'm like, I have qualification questions where I'm like, okay, like, do you do this, this, or that?
[00:24:52.080 --> 00:24:53.040] Do this or that?
[00:24:53.040 --> 00:24:56.080] And then at the end, I'm like, okay, I know what implementation is going to look like.
[00:24:56.080 --> 00:24:58.960] So, so that feels more enterprise-y as well.
[00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:03.600] Any idea when folks will start paying you to use your Salesforce integration?
[00:25:03.600 --> 00:25:04.640] Or is that already happening?
[00:25:04.800 --> 00:25:05.360] Already happening.
[00:25:05.360 --> 00:25:05.600] It is.
[00:25:05.760 --> 00:25:05.920] Okay.
[00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:07.440] It's in the data, but they're paying for it.
[00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:08.080] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:25:08.080 --> 00:25:08.800] Already happening.
[00:25:08.800 --> 00:25:10.560] We had our first one, I think, in December.
[00:25:10.560 --> 00:25:12.080] And so this is February now.
[00:25:12.080 --> 00:25:13.920] And then January, February.
[00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:20.000] And I mean, honestly, like, this is kind of weird, but I'm actually kind of enjoying building for it because it does so many things.
[00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:26.560] And I think what they're doing with AgentForce is really interesting because we're kind of like, we play on the data context layer.
[00:25:26.560 --> 00:25:32.160] And so once that's in the CRM, there's actually a lot of stuff you can do with the outbound sync data for like automation and AI stuff.
[00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:34.000] And so I like their, what I like what they're doing with AI.
[00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:36.320] So we, yeah, we have pink customers.
[00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:38.640] Santoso is like another one of those.
[00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:43.280] And I think I'm increasing prices now as we're doing more.
[00:25:43.280 --> 00:25:44.800] And I feel more confident on the call.
[00:25:44.800 --> 00:25:46.160] And I'm like, we can do this with this.
[00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:48.640] Like, I'm like, I know that took time.
[00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:50.800] So I'm going to make you please pay me for it.
[00:25:50.800 --> 00:25:54.880] You know, whereas before it was kind of like, I don't even know if this thing's going to like fully work.
[00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:58.640] So if you, if you want to take a flyer on me, we can see what happens.
[00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:00.480] But now it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do it.
[00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:01.440] You know.
[00:26:01.760 --> 00:26:11.120] So between now and the next time we talk, which probably couple months has been our usual cadence, what are you most excited about in the business?
[00:26:11.120 --> 00:26:16.240] I've been pushing really hard on like getting instantly and SaaS mail and email by sitting in Salesforce.
[00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:22.960] And I really just want to get them like full feature parity because it's, it's like a lot of explaining.
[00:26:23.120 --> 00:26:25.280] Like, oh, we don't do that yet, but it's coming soon.
[00:26:25.280 --> 00:26:28.720] I feel like that will be, and I think, I think we'll also get to 30K around that time.
[00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:31.720] And that'll feel like V1 of this as a company.
[00:26:29.360 --> 00:26:36.920] It's like a legit software company that's profitable, that has a handful of really legit integrations.
[00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:45.000] So that I'm excited to like not have to be like talking in circles around like, well, yes, we support instantly in Salesforce, but we have this one feature that's not there yet.
[00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:46.120] That's just like kind of annoying.
[00:26:46.120 --> 00:26:47.880] And I know it's annoying for our CSM too.
[00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:48.360] He's fine.
[00:26:48.360 --> 00:26:49.000] You know, it's fine.
[00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:50.760] He's doing great, but it's, you know.
[00:26:50.760 --> 00:26:55.160] So that I'm excited to just be like, really, really objectively looking forward to that.
[00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:58.120] I'm excited about MicroConf in a couple weeks.
[00:26:58.120 --> 00:27:00.440] That'll be really fun to like meet up with our cohort.
[00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:03.560] I'm so myopically focused on getting to 30K right now.
[00:27:03.560 --> 00:27:05.160] Somebody asked me, like, what's next after that?
[00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:09.320] And I'm like, I don't, like, I honestly have no idea.
[00:27:09.320 --> 00:27:10.440] That's the next peak.
[00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:11.400] I can't even see beyond.
[00:27:11.560 --> 00:27:11.800] Exactly.
[00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:14.520] I got to get there and then look.
[00:27:14.520 --> 00:27:15.400] Yeah, exactly.
[00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:18.360] So I'm just like, so, so, so tunnel-based on that.
[00:27:18.360 --> 00:27:23.960] And I don't know if that's good or bad, but I literally can't think about, I mean, I have broad idea, but like, you know.
[00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:25.800] You're, well, I'll tell you what it is.
[00:27:25.800 --> 00:27:28.920] It's 41,667, which is half a million, 500K.
[00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:29.720] Or that's usually.
[00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:31.080] I've been down this road.
[00:27:31.080 --> 00:27:35.640] I know exactly the first is 40K and then it's 41.667 and then it's 50K.
[00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:43.880] I mean, it's pretty, pretty easy, but the question is, you know, do the current integrations and the, you know, the current way you're executing, does that allow you to get there?
[00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:45.560] Do you have to make adjustments?
[00:27:47.800 --> 00:27:52.200] Harris seems to be on a tear with a trajectory that just keeps going up.
[00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:55.400] But with all that growth, hurdles are bound to show up.
[00:27:55.400 --> 00:27:58.520] Will his bet on SOC2 and marketplaces pay off?
[00:27:58.520 --> 00:28:02.120] And will he need to raise an additional round to keep up with growth?
[00:28:02.120 --> 00:28:06.440] We'll talk about that and more next time on Tiny Seed Tales.
[00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:11.720] I hope you enjoyed this episode.
[00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:23.360] If you've ever wondered what it's really like inside Tiny Seed and want to hear a raw, candid coaching conversation between Harris and I, we've put together something special for you at tinyseed.com/slash bonus.
[00:28:23.360 --> 00:28:24.320] You should check it out.
[00:28:24.320 --> 00:28:26.720] I've never released anything like this before.
[00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:27.680] I hope you enjoy it.
[00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:30.480] It's at tinyseed.com/slash bonus.

Prompt 2: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 3: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 4: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Full Transcript

[00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:09.760] Welcome back to a special Thursday episode of Startups for the Rest of Us, where we continue on with Tiny Seed Tales season five as we follow Harris Kenny on his journey to grow Outbound Sync.
[00:00:09.760 --> 00:00:14.160] We've had a great response to these episodes from founders and TinySeed investors alike.
[00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:22.640] If you're interested in diversifying your portfolio and investing in ambitious early-stage B2B SaaS companies, we're currently raising fund three for TinySeed.
[00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:26.880] We recently returned more than 100% of our first TinySeed fund.
[00:00:26.880 --> 00:00:28.800] And frankly, we're just getting started.
[00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:34.560] If you're interested in joining us, check out our thesis at tinyseed.com/slash invest.
[00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:38.640] And if you fill out the form there, it goes directly to my co-founder, Einar.
[00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:43.840] You can also reach out to Einar directly at e-in-ar at tinyseed.com.
[00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:45.120] Let's dive in.
[00:00:45.120 --> 00:00:45.840] It is weird.
[00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:48.400] I do wonder, like, oh, is this the best idea I'm ever going to have?
[00:00:48.400 --> 00:00:52.320] Maybe, like, I mean, hopefully not, but like, maybe this could be like a really big thing.
[00:00:52.320 --> 00:01:02.320] I mean, we're having calls now with like pretty big companies, and I do know that like there's like features in Trello that if I shipped them right now, I would turn them into revenue immediately.
[00:01:04.240 --> 00:01:09.840] Welcome back to Tiny Seed Tales, a series where I follow a founder through the roller coaster of building their startup.
[00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:18.320] I'm your host, Rob Walling, a serial entrepreneur and co-founder of TinySeed, the startup accelerator for ambitious SaaS bootstrappers.
[00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:23.200] Here in season five, I've been talking with Harris Kenney, founder of Outbound Sync.
[00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:27.520] Last time I spoke with Harris, he had just closed his biggest contract to date.
[00:01:27.520 --> 00:01:31.360] Now, he's hit another impressive milestone.
[00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:34.480] Hey, Rob, quick clip for the pod.
[00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:35.920] 20K.
[00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:38.320] Let's go.
[00:01:38.960 --> 00:01:39.520] I don't know.
[00:01:39.520 --> 00:01:44.880] I'm still sinking in, but really, really feeling a little overwhelmed.
[00:01:44.880 --> 00:01:49.840] And also, like, what's the next thing about hitting 20K MRR?
[00:01:50.160 --> 00:01:53.280] So, yeah, hit it ahead of schedule.
[00:01:53.600 --> 00:01:56.080] Had been hoping to hit this in May.
[00:01:56.320 --> 00:02:00.520] That would be, you know, at kind of the end of our Tiny Seed year, but it's February.
[00:02:00.520 --> 00:02:02.360] Today's February 20th.
[00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:04.520] So I hit it ahead of schedule.
[00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:15.800] And I've had a sheet of paper that says 20,000 sitting over my desk for, actually, I don't remember when I put it up, but for a while.
[00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:18.280] So now I get to take it down and put up the next one.
[00:02:18.280 --> 00:02:19.320] Next goal is 30K.
[00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:23.560] Gonna celebrate, gonna get dinner with my wife just to kind of like hit the milestone.
[00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:28.920] I never really celebrated getting into tiny seed because it always felt like the beginning of the next thing.
[00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:34.360] Didn't quite feel like a full accomplishment on its own, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna celebrate this one for sure.
[00:02:36.920 --> 00:02:39.080] You sound excited.
[00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:40.520] You should be.
[00:02:40.520 --> 00:02:42.840] It's a big deal, man.
[00:02:43.480 --> 00:02:44.680] It was really gratifying.
[00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:45.640] I mean, it was so funny.
[00:02:45.640 --> 00:02:49.880] Like, of course, like at the very end, I'm like stuck at 19.9, like for like a week.
[00:02:49.880 --> 00:02:50.440] Of course.
[00:02:50.440 --> 00:02:51.880] It was like so funny.
[00:02:51.880 --> 00:02:55.560] And then finally it like popped and it was like, oh yeah, totally.
[00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:59.960] I mean, it's not the end, but it definitely felt it was like the first major, major revenue milestone.
[00:02:59.960 --> 00:03:09.240] And I think because it was like externally like validated of like, yeah, like this is like a new, I mean, the tiny seed is vested in whatever, like 100 or 200, I don't know how many companies at this point.
[00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:12.440] So it was like a helpful thing of like, that's a real number I should focus on.
[00:03:12.440 --> 00:03:22.440] And so that was like a really helpful thing for me to have like a really simple, really clear goal because there's so many other things going on that it was, it's, it's like noisy sometimes.
[00:03:22.440 --> 00:03:22.840] Yeah.
[00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:24.360] Did you celebrate?
[00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:25.400] Not yet.
[00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:25.880] Okay.
[00:03:25.880 --> 00:03:35.560] Aloha I was like, we had already been getting dinner with my wife and we brought our one-year-old because our older kid was, our older daughter was with grandma.
[00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:41.480] And so, like, my instinct was like, oh, well, let's just like have, let's just have, call this dinner that we're already having anyway.
[00:03:41.480 --> 00:03:46.800] Let's just like call this the celebration dinner, which is like not the best, you know, it's like kind of a cop out.
[00:03:46.880 --> 00:03:48.080] It's like, what's wrong with you?
[00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:52.080] Why, like, why can't you just be like happy about this and be a normal person and be like, you did it?
[00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:52.560] It's great.
[00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:55.440] Like, go do something, get something for yourself or do something.
[00:03:55.440 --> 00:03:58.320] So that's like a thing I think I need to like look in and work on.
[00:03:58.480 --> 00:04:00.560] But anyway, but I was like, okay, so we're not going to, I'm not going to do that.
[00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:01.120] That was my instinct.
[00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:02.320] And then I pulled back from it.
[00:04:02.320 --> 00:04:10.640] So we are going to like make a plan and do it and do a dinner and just get a chance to like kind of reflect on getting here because it kind of reflects like we're not, I'm not fully done.
[00:04:10.640 --> 00:04:18.320] 30 is we're profitable when the plane's in the air, but I, but 20 is big and I want to do something for it.
[00:04:18.320 --> 00:04:23.520] You hit 20K and then within days, you sent me this in Slack.
[00:04:23.520 --> 00:04:29.760] Quote, I'm quoting you, overall things are good, but I've also felt very anxious since hitting 20K.
[00:04:29.760 --> 00:04:32.000] Like I'm close, but not there yet.
[00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:33.200] Runway's still an issue.
[00:04:33.200 --> 00:04:35.120] If I fail now, it would be excruciating.
[00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:41.040] So I'm having to up prices and sell better and make harder product calls because I want to play to win and not play to not lose.
[00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:43.120] I really don't want to go raise more money.
[00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:48.960] And I'm up against the wall in terms of personal expenses with me being the number one drain in the business due to having two young children.
[00:04:48.960 --> 00:04:51.440] This is what I call the arrival fallacy, or not, I call it.
[00:04:51.440 --> 00:04:53.360] It just is what's, you know, generally called.
[00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:57.840] It's like, dude, did you even celebrate for a day for 24 hours?
[00:04:57.840 --> 00:04:59.520] No, you started worrying about it.
[00:04:59.520 --> 00:05:00.080] And it's good.
[00:05:00.080 --> 00:05:01.440] There's a balance here, right?
[00:05:01.440 --> 00:05:04.720] If you don't ever worry about it, then you don't get there.
[00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:09.920] Part of the stress, the Yerkes-Dodson curve, right, is that you have enough stress to make you perform at a high level.
[00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:13.600] And then too much stress, eventually you, you collapse, you implode, right?
[00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:16.480] So runway's still an issue.
[00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:18.240] And that's, I can, I can imagine that.
[00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:25.440] But do you, this is why I was asking, like, did you take enough time to at least say, man, 20K, I made it?
[00:05:25.760 --> 00:05:29.040] Yeah, I mean, no, like, definitely, definitely not.
[00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:35.640] And as you think about this, like, if I fail now, it would be excruciating.
[00:05:29.840 --> 00:05:36.280] I would agree with that.
[00:05:36.440 --> 00:05:40.840] I don't see that happening at the way you've been executing, you know, based on the way you've been executing so far.
[00:05:40.840 --> 00:05:47.720] But 30K feels within, it doesn't feel easy, but it feels simple.
[00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:50.360] The simple, it's a straight path, right?
[00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:55.400] So we get some companies who come into Tiny Seed where I see a straight path to some number.
[00:05:55.560 --> 00:06:05.800] I think you get to be 10K MRR, or I think this can even be 100K MRR business, but you're not going to make it past that because of market size or some other thing.
[00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:09.240] And then we talk about how are you going to actually get there?
[00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:09.880] You're going to have to pivot.
[00:06:09.880 --> 00:06:10.680] You're going to have to change strategy.
[00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:11.800] You're going to have to add more integrations.
[00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:13.400] You're going to have to do whatever.
[00:06:13.400 --> 00:06:15.240] For you, I don't see that.
[00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:17.640] There's no like limit right now.
[00:06:17.640 --> 00:06:27.000] And so 30K feels pretty much like blocking and tackling, showing up every day and doing what, doing the same thing you've been doing for the past six to 12 months.
[00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:28.360] That's how I see it.
[00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:29.400] How do you see it?
[00:06:29.400 --> 00:06:30.440] No, I think that's right.
[00:06:30.440 --> 00:06:35.160] ChatGPT thinks I'll get there in June if I did a little Kagger thing for me.
[00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:36.120] Great.
[00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:36.760] Yeah.
[00:06:37.080 --> 00:06:38.680] No, I think that's right.
[00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:40.200] I think that we have the right combination.
[00:06:40.200 --> 00:06:54.040] I mean, there's like two decisions that I made probably six months ago around starting Salesforce and then probably three months ago around starting building for other platforms besides, or in addition to SmartLead.
[00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:59.960] And I think those two decisions back then are why we are where we are now.
[00:06:59.960 --> 00:07:14.960] I think if I hadn't made those decisions now, I think I'd be in a very different position because we're seeing, like, especially on the sequencer side, like we're seeing like customers who had been using SmartLead are now asking us, oh, we're actually going to move everything over to instantly.
[00:07:14.960 --> 00:07:17.760] Or for all new clients, we're going to move them over to this new platform.
[00:07:17.760 --> 00:07:23.680] And like, had I not started building that back in like December, I would have lost that revenue.
[00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:27.600] Like, we totally would have, I think, plateaued over the course of.
[00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:31.040] like January, February, and potentially like would have had been down.
[00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:33.840] So I think because of those decisions, I do agree.
[00:07:33.840 --> 00:07:44.480] I do think now with this set of options, we've got like enough options that we can kind of flex between that we support in terms of the integration sets on either side of where we sit that I do think we can get to 30k because of that.
[00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:45.280] I do agree.
[00:07:45.280 --> 00:07:56.240] I think it's just like getting these features out, notifying customers that they're out, posting about it on LinkedIn and YouTube and doing a little bit of co-marketing with the platforms too to help get in front of their customers.
[00:07:57.280 --> 00:07:59.440] How much are you burning each month right now?
[00:08:00.960 --> 00:08:02.720] I mean, it's around 30, right?
[00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:04.720] And 30K per month that you're about.
[00:08:04.880 --> 00:08:05.200] Yeah.
[00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:06.640] Or like spending.
[00:08:06.640 --> 00:08:11.200] So we're negative 10 now, basically.
[00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:15.360] And so as we increment up, I am slowly extending that runway.
[00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:15.760] Yeah.
[00:08:15.760 --> 00:08:17.360] How long is your runway right now?
[00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:23.200] Right now, I would say it's probably like six months now.
[00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:29.200] And that's assuming like no prepaid, most, almost all of our customers are month to month right now.
[00:08:29.200 --> 00:08:30.560] So that's assuming no prepaid.
[00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:32.960] Although I do have like one annual that's supposed to come in at some point.
[00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:33.920] It's like a net 45.
[00:08:33.920 --> 00:08:35.520] So I kind of forgot about it.
[00:08:35.520 --> 00:08:37.920] But yeah, so like six months at that rate.
[00:08:37.920 --> 00:08:40.080] It could go like around like 60K at the bank right now.
[00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:48.400] And like there are levers I could pull with my own like personal finances if I had to, like before having to go out and like do a raise money conversation or whatever.
[00:08:48.400 --> 00:08:48.880] Or, yeah.
[00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:59.200] So, so right now I'm trying to like increment like up on prices, figure out the things that we have to do to like get Salesforce out, like new Salesforce customers, because they're asking for like very specific things.
[00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:04.600] And then, like, I'm having to like sell better because I get on a call and I say, Oh, it's 800 bucks a month now.
[00:09:04.920 --> 00:09:14.360] And whereas like the first couple of Salesforce seats I sold, I did for 150, which I knew was low, but it was just like, I've got to get some revenue on this because I've just been spending engineering months on it.
[00:09:14.440 --> 00:09:16.440] I just, I need somebody to use it.
[00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:19.720] So, that was like a calculated, maybe bad, but calculated choice.
[00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:22.520] But now I have to like follow up and I'm like using like a digital sales room.
[00:09:22.520 --> 00:09:24.760] And I'm like, hey, like, you talked about these two things being important.
[00:09:24.760 --> 00:09:25.880] Like, are those still important to you?
[00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:35.240] I'm having to like, like, sell like and not just sort of be like, uh, blab for 30 minutes on a demo and be like, Do you want to like pay or or not?
[00:09:35.880 --> 00:09:37.960] So that's that's like, it's like challenging a little bit.
[00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:40.840] I mean, it's not that complicated, but it's, it's definitely like it's harder.
[00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:43.560] Like increasing prices is not as easy as just increasing prices.
[00:09:43.560 --> 00:09:43.880] That's right.
[00:09:43.880 --> 00:09:46.360] It's a bigger lift to change the sales expectations change.
[00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:47.960] Yeah, exactly.
[00:09:47.960 --> 00:09:52.120] You said, I really don't want to go raise more money.
[00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:55.560] And I don't have a strong opinion, to be honest.
[00:09:55.560 --> 00:10:01.640] If you were to come to me and say, I really want to raise more money, I'd be like, great, you're going so fast and you're in such a big space.
[00:10:01.640 --> 00:10:02.360] You can do it.
[00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:04.280] And I don't think it'll be that hard.
[00:10:04.280 --> 00:10:07.800] But if you come to me and say, I really don't want to raise money.
[00:10:07.800 --> 00:10:12.440] And if you came and said that and you were like about to run out of money, I'd be like, well, this is not smart.
[00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:13.400] You're making a bad decision.
[00:10:13.400 --> 00:10:17.480] But you're, you're on the cusp there where you have six months and I think you're going to make it.
[00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:20.600] So either way you do it, it's your choice.
[00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:28.280] I'm willing to give you advice on it, obviously, but I don't, I don't have that strong, oh, 98% of the time I would do this or that in this situation, right?
[00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:34.280] But I am curious to hear you say, I really don't want to go raise more money.
[00:10:34.280 --> 00:10:34.680] Why?
[00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:43.640] Yeah, I feel like when we get to 30K, I actually would be open to having the conversation then from a position of strength of like, look, we got to this point.
[00:10:43.640 --> 00:10:44.280] I did it.
[00:10:44.280 --> 00:10:47.440] My like, I mean, it's been in April 2019.
[00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:52.400] I went out on my own as like I started my first company, April Fool's Day, accidentally.
[00:10:52.400 --> 00:10:55.520] On May 1st, 2019 was my first day fully on my own.
[00:10:55.520 --> 00:10:59.440] About a year like later, I discovered Star Wars for the rest of us.
[00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:04.160] And I would walk around a park by our house with our then one-year-old and I would listen to the pod.
[00:11:04.160 --> 00:11:07.440] But anyway, so I'm coming up on six years since I went out on my own.
[00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:09.920] And I feel like if we get to profitable, like I will have done it.
[00:11:09.920 --> 00:11:16.000] I will be a non-technical founder of a software company in 2025.
[00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:19.280] I will have the schedule flexibility to like spend time with my kids.
[00:11:19.280 --> 00:11:20.320] We have our house.
[00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:22.400] We live very fortunate to live in a good part of Denver.
[00:11:22.400 --> 00:11:27.920] I will like have it be the end of the beginning in my mind.
[00:11:27.920 --> 00:11:36.080] And I think if I can get there and then I can be more strategic about like, okay, we're going to raise money to go solve this problem or to like do this faster.
[00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:42.480] That feels like a very different position than we're going to raise money because I, because I, because I have to get to this point.
[00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:52.560] I mean, maybe at this point, there would be somebody who'd be willing to write the kind of check that Tiny Seed wrote for us a year ago, but like not, there's just not that many people out there like that.
[00:11:52.560 --> 00:11:58.560] And I, and I'm watching other companies in our space, in the outbound space, raise that kind of money and I'm watching how it's affecting how they make decisions.
[00:11:58.560 --> 00:12:01.600] And to me, it just feels like it would be a distraction.
[00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:03.280] And I don't think I need to do it.
[00:12:03.280 --> 00:12:10.240] I think I just need to stay disciplined and just focus on like the most important thing to do today, this week, this month.
[00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:14.880] I think if I do that, I don't need money to do that.
[00:12:14.880 --> 00:12:16.320] So that's just kind of where my head's at.
[00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:19.760] I think it's possible if we get there, I kind of, it's the end of the beginning.
[00:12:19.760 --> 00:12:20.800] I have this company now.
[00:12:20.800 --> 00:12:24.960] And then maybe from this, that vantage point, I look out and I say, ooh, this is kind of cool.
[00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:26.800] What if we raise money to go tackle this or whatever?
[00:12:26.800 --> 00:12:28.800] But I just like, I don't know what that is yet.
[00:12:28.800 --> 00:12:32.760] So of all the, you kind of have some objections to raising money that you listed.
[00:12:32.760 --> 00:12:39.160] And of all of them, the only one that I agree with is that it would be a distraction because it always is.
[00:12:39.160 --> 00:12:43.640] Everything else you said, I don't actually think is true.
[00:12:43.640 --> 00:12:44.920] If you want to know the truth.
[00:12:44.920 --> 00:12:45.160] I do.
[00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:45.640] I mean, I do.
[00:12:45.640 --> 00:12:47.560] I don't, I mean, I don't know what I'm doing.
[00:12:47.560 --> 00:12:49.000] That's the only thing I know for sure.
[00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:49.560] Totally.
[00:12:49.560 --> 00:12:58.600] No, but you said, will I be able to find many investors that would write a check and not, I think what you're implying is and not expect me to raise a series A and AT.
[00:12:58.600 --> 00:12:58.760] Yeah.
[00:12:58.760 --> 00:12:59.080] That's right.
[00:12:59.080 --> 00:13:00.680] You non-venture track.
[00:13:00.680 --> 00:13:05.240] And the answer is yes, you can absolutely find them and you would.
[00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:06.680] You'd be able to raise this.
[00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:11.080] The way you're growing and the space you're in, you would be able to raise money.
[00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:15.480] I'm not saying it'd be 48 hours to closing the deal, but you would.
[00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:24.120] You mentioned getting to profitability and feeling, ooh, you know, kind of, I think it would like be calm in your soul and then you'd be able to set sights on the next thing.
[00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:27.960] Investors at this stage, they don't, you don't need to be profitable.
[00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:30.200] You're not burning 50K a month.
[00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:32.280] You're burning 10K a month with six months runway.
[00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:33.480] You're in fine shape.
[00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:40.840] So like every objection that you have, I just want to, and again, I don't care if you raise money or not.
[00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:47.960] Like I'm not trying to convince you either way, but what I do want you to have are the facts or at least how I view the reality of the situation.
[00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:56.200] I don't want you to have objections against something that may not be true, you know, and those are the reasons you're not doing it.
[00:13:56.200 --> 00:14:00.680] So that's the only reason I call it out because someone might be listening to this thinking the same thing, you know?
[00:14:01.000 --> 00:15:47.880] And so if if money really is the number one stressor in your life right now, you get to think about it of like, hey, if I had a couple hundred grand, 250, 400K in the bank, not in your personal account, obviously, but in the business account, you know, how would that change it it is weird I do wonder like oh is this the best idea I'm ever gonna have maybe like I mean hopefully not but like maybe this could be like a really big thing I mean we're having calls now with like pretty big companies and I do know that like there's like features in Trello that if I shipped them right now I would turn them into revenue immediately like I literally have people being like hey just like tell me when it's ready there's like a version of me that or there's a version of this company where I see that more clearly than I'm seeing it right now and I'm not just so focused on like like my current month American Express bill or whatever in our last episode Harris had done most of the prep work for sock 2 and was entering the observation period I wanted to follow up to see how that process was playing out I don't give myself like a ton of credit but I think there's a couple of big things that I got right and they're all connected which is that I felt like this scaled outbound kind of growth hacking approach was going to go mainstream and like if that was true then a few things then I would have to make a few decisions Salesforce integration and SOC 2 being I think like the two big ones and I do think that is true like bigger and bigger and bigger companies with more and more budget are adopting these tools or hiring agencies and so sock 2 is part of that and like I think we talked about it briefly last time but you know I think it's totally made our company better our product better we're handling security issues better I'm really proud of that and it'll be great to have the report and be able to like put it out there but like on the sequencer side, none of the tools that we integrate with have it.
[00:15:47.880 --> 00:15:50.600] So it's really like unique for us to get that.
[00:15:50.600 --> 00:16:03.160] We're going to start getting pulled into more procurement now and like I know that their sales team is going to be up on a call and they're going to talk to some enterprise buyer and they're going to be like, well, we don't have sock 2, but if you're using Outbound Sync, Outbound Sync is the thing that connects to your system and they have it.
[00:16:03.160 --> 00:16:07.560] And so I think they're going to start pulling us in more than they do right now.
[00:16:07.560 --> 00:16:26.120] They're being friendly and they've sent some stuff our way, which I'm grateful for, but I think it's going to become more of like it'll be in their internal wiki or Slack or whatever of like, yo, bring Harrison to sit on a demo so we can close this deal, I think, because otherwise they're going to say, no, we're not going to give you right access to our system.
[00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:31.480] Can you tell the listeners or explain to them who this you said that you said they are going to bring us in?
[00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:32.120] Who is they?
[00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:32.600] Oh, sure.
[00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:32.920] Sorry.
[00:16:32.920 --> 00:16:33.160] Yeah.
[00:16:33.160 --> 00:16:36.040] So the sales engagement platforms that we integrate with.
[00:16:36.040 --> 00:16:39.960] So that would be right now, SmartLead, Instantly, Email Bison, and Sasmail.
[00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:42.920] So since the last time we talked, those three other tools are all new.
[00:16:42.920 --> 00:16:44.680] And none of them are SOC2.
[00:16:44.680 --> 00:16:48.360] But if you're SOC2, somehow that helps?
[00:16:48.680 --> 00:16:49.160] Yeah.
[00:16:49.160 --> 00:16:52.280] I think that like these mid-market.
[00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:54.920] So we've closed a couple of mid-market deals since we last talked.
[00:16:54.920 --> 00:17:00.120] Like Cindoso is one, which is pretty cool because they're like early adopters of tools.
[00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:14.120] And so if you look and see their testimonials on some of the different like outbound sites, I think it's like a really good indicator that they signed up for us because they like they tend to pick winners, I feel like.
[00:17:14.120 --> 00:17:19.160] Like they have a really strong culture in their go-to-market org is like, anyway, so to me, I was like, oh, cool.
[00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:22.600] Like we're kind of in this club now where their team was like, yeah, we need this.
[00:17:22.600 --> 00:17:28.440] And so, but like you, you get in this procurement process, they see a demo, they'll look at instantly or smart lead and they say, yeah, this looks great.
[00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:34.040] We're landing in spam with our current approach, using our primary domain and using whatever tool we're using.
[00:17:34.040 --> 00:17:37.640] But in the next call, I'm going to bring in our Salesforce admin and they're going to have questions.
[00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:41.000] And that person is the one that kills the deal for the sequencer company.
[00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:46.880] And so I think that's that point where they would, where the sequencer company would say, hey, actually, App on Sync solves this problem.
[00:17:44.840 --> 00:17:47.680] Here's a trust center.
[00:17:47.760 --> 00:17:54.480] If we want, you can have Harrison on a call and he can explain how we can follow your data governance requirements, basically.
[00:17:54.480 --> 00:18:01.280] And so it'll become like an ace, I think, an ace in the hole for them to get those deals across the board when they're selling direct.
[00:18:01.600 --> 00:18:04.560] I do, I'm a big, big, big believer in the value of agencies.
[00:18:04.560 --> 00:18:12.880] But if this keeps mainstreaming, like I think it is, I also think that some of these teams are going to buy direct from the platforms and not just ask an agency to run it for them.
[00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:15.440] But we're also watching our agencies move up market.
[00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.560] And like they've told me that they're now putting App on Sync in their decks.
[00:18:18.560 --> 00:18:23.520] And I'm watching them onboard bigger and bigger companies than they were 12 months ago.
[00:18:23.520 --> 00:18:27.360] And now they're like consistently saying, We got another one and we need App on Sync.
[00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:30.960] And so we're helping them move up market, which is pretty awesome.
[00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:38.320] You know, a lot of the stuff you describe of how you're growing and the success you're having might sound to someone like you happen to be at the right place at the right time.
[00:18:38.320 --> 00:18:40.400] There's a lot of right place at the right time with you.
[00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:42.640] That's not an accident and that's not luck.
[00:18:43.120 --> 00:18:45.280] There's a little bit of luck involved in all of this, let's be real.
[00:18:45.280 --> 00:18:50.880] But I think that you have made pretty strategic bets on where the puck was going.
[00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:53.680] And there's a chance it didn't, it wouldn't go there.
[00:18:53.680 --> 00:19:03.360] But it seems like a lot of the stuff that you do, the bets you make, if they work out, they have pretty significant asymmetric upside.
[00:19:03.360 --> 00:19:04.560] Would you agree with that?
[00:19:04.560 --> 00:19:05.840] Yeah, definitely.
[00:19:05.840 --> 00:19:08.080] Best one, 2013.
[00:19:08.080 --> 00:19:09.280] Married my wife.
[00:19:09.280 --> 00:19:10.640] That's worked out really well.
[00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:10.880] Yeah.
[00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:13.120] So I'm a gambling man.
[00:19:13.520 --> 00:19:14.320] No, I agree.
[00:19:14.320 --> 00:19:19.760] I think that I've definitely, like, it's funny because I'm actually not a risky person.
[00:19:19.760 --> 00:19:21.360] Like, I don't, I like being on my feet.
[00:19:21.360 --> 00:19:22.720] Like, I don't like extreme sports.
[00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:24.560] I don't like like mountain biking and things like that.
[00:19:24.560 --> 00:19:28.640] But there's certain things where I think I say to myself, like, you got to go for it.
[00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:42.120] And so, I've made some big bets with this company and in other parts of my life over the years where, like, in general, like, I'm a pretty steady Eddie, not a thrill seeker, but there's certain things where it's like, dude, you just either put chips in or just like get off, get away from the table.
[00:19:42.120 --> 00:19:43.720] And this has definitely been one of those.
[00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:48.840] Running that agency, I think, gave me some insight into for three and a half years before this.
[00:19:48.840 --> 00:19:51.960] I think gave me insight a little bit into what was going on for sure.
[00:19:56.760 --> 00:20:01.400] Another bet that Harris made was building an integration for the HubSpot app marketplace.
[00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:11.080] This took a bunch of engineering time and effort, and I was wondering if it had paid off over the last few months.
[00:20:11.080 --> 00:20:12.760] It's different.
[00:20:12.760 --> 00:20:15.560] And so, like, the discoverability is much lower.
[00:20:15.560 --> 00:20:20.440] But I think that what it's helped with, like, we've had a couple people that just like randomly stumble upon it and download it.
[00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:25.480] I think it's just more helped with like credibility and like getting through the process than anything else.
[00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:32.440] Because, like, when we weren't in it and we would go to install it, it would give this like warning of like, this is a random, you know, app.
[00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:33.640] And that like goes away.
[00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:36.120] And that came up and like people would mention it.
[00:20:36.120 --> 00:20:37.880] And so I think it's helped with that.
[00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:39.560] It's helped with like SEO.
[00:20:39.560 --> 00:20:41.640] So I'm glad we did it.
[00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:45.080] We were essentially an unlisted app for like a year before we did it.
[00:20:45.080 --> 00:20:47.880] And we're going to end up doing the same thing with Salesforce.
[00:20:48.120 --> 00:20:59.400] Although I'm starting to talk to their team now about getting into their app partner program and being like the app exchange, official app exchange partner for Salesforce, which was, I think, when we like first talked about it, you're like, doesn't this take like a year?
[00:20:59.560 --> 00:21:07.240] I was like sort of misunderstanding, like you can be an unlisted app whatever you want, but to be in, it does take a year to be like a real, they do a security review and stuff.
[00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:13.880] So yeah, I think like worth it, but only after we had like super validated that HubSpot users had this problem.
[00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:17.120] Like in and of itself, it is not driving demand.
[00:21:17.120 --> 00:21:19.600] But I think that with Salesforce, it will be different.
[00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:26.880] I think when we become a Salesforce app exchange partner, I think it will mean it will move the needle more for us, just based on like how I'm seeing it.
[00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:29.040] Tell me about your Salesforce integration right now.
[00:21:29.040 --> 00:21:30.640] You're an unlisted app.
[00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:31.040] Yeah.
[00:21:31.360 --> 00:21:41.840] And you were telling me offline that in fact you built this integration, which I'm sure was not easy to build because I've seen the Salesforce API back in the day with Drip.
[00:21:41.840 --> 00:21:42.800] We were going to integrate with them.
[00:21:42.800 --> 00:21:45.680] And I was like, oh no, there are things you cannot unsee.
[00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:52.640] We looked at their Derek and I looked at their docs and we're like, ah, so I don't think it was the easiest thing to build.
[00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:57.280] And in fact, you had asked some folks, should I build this?
[00:21:57.280 --> 00:21:59.200] And they were like, no, we wouldn't use it or something like that.
[00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:02.880] Like, can you tell that story of how it was completely not validated and you built it anyway?
[00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:05.680] And then I want to hear, was it worth it?
[00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:06.000] Yeah.
[00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:14.080] I think that might be the highest risk engineering time I've spent since starting this was on Salesforce.
[00:22:14.080 --> 00:22:17.680] So I went into the SmartLead Slack community, which is super active.
[00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:22.000] And I think like at least once, but maybe twice, I asked like, hey, we're working on Salesforce.
[00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:24.400] You know, we're the people who made the HubSpot integration.
[00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:25.840] Now we're going to Salesforce.
[00:22:25.840 --> 00:22:27.200] You know, who's interested?
[00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:29.200] And like literally nobody responded.
[00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:34.640] Not even like a reaction emoji of like a rocket ship or whatever, which you kind of like, these communities, it's like a lot of rah-rah stuff.
[00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:36.240] It was just like nothing.
[00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:38.160] It's a total lead balloon.
[00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:42.400] And like part of it was like, hmm, okay.
[00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:43.840] Like literally nothing.
[00:22:43.840 --> 00:22:50.080] And I asked around and like at the time, like a lot of our agencies were like, oh, well, you know, a lot of our clients aren't using Salesforce.
[00:22:50.080 --> 00:22:51.840] So like, I don't know if we would need it yet.
[00:22:51.840 --> 00:22:58.400] But I think like this goes back to like my one core thesis of like this scaled outbound movement would growth hacking movement would go mainstream.
[00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:00.000] And if that was true, what else would be true?
[00:23:00.600 --> 00:23:07.720] And this fits in with that one idea, which is like, well, that means bigger companies with Salesforce will also want it.
[00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:11.640] And we had like one example of a prospect who was like that.
[00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:19.080] And then what really clinched it for me was when we got a support ticket of a screenshot of Salesforce.
[00:23:19.080 --> 00:23:20.360] And I was like, what the heck?
[00:23:20.360 --> 00:23:23.480] Like literally, how is our data in a Salesforce account?
[00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:29.480] And they were like, oh, well, we're actually using HubSpot's data sync to get it in there.
[00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:35.480] And a couple of other users validated that of like, oh, yeah, that's the only reason why we bought the HubSpot integration is because we want it in Salesforce.
[00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:38.600] And I was like, oh, but they were, I didn't know that.
[00:23:38.600 --> 00:23:41.080] And so then it was like, okay, okay, okay.
[00:23:41.080 --> 00:23:42.920] This is like hidden, masked.
[00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:47.160] Like hacking your tool to get a result that you could get.
[00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:47.720] Oh, man.
[00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:47.960] Yes.
[00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:50.200] So it's like, oh, there is demand, actually.
[00:23:50.520 --> 00:23:52.200] So then, so then we decided to start building it.
[00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:53.640] And it was definitely harder than I thought it would be.
[00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:54.280] It took more time.
[00:23:54.280 --> 00:23:57.560] And like, even as we rolled it out, I'm like, cool, we have it.
[00:23:57.560 --> 00:23:59.320] We log emails to the email object.
[00:23:59.320 --> 00:24:02.520] And then people are like, well, why do you log emails as emails?
[00:24:02.520 --> 00:24:04.600] We want you to log emails as tasks.
[00:24:04.600 --> 00:24:06.840] And I'm like, why would I do that?
[00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:11.720] And then I learned how the data model works and like, oh, actually, tasks are really useful.
[00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:12.600] So it's like, okay, great.
[00:24:12.600 --> 00:24:13.800] Now we have emails as tasks.
[00:24:13.800 --> 00:24:15.400] And then they're like, oh, well, that's great.
[00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:16.760] But like, you know, whatever.
[00:24:16.760 --> 00:24:26.440] So, so that's why I say like when we throw engineering hours at this, like I know that there's revenue there because I have literally prospects who are like, as soon as you support the lead object, we will sign up.
[00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:29.480] But right now we have to use accounts and contacts or whatever.
[00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:32.200] And so like we're slowly expanding our footprint in Salesforce.
[00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:42.360] I still consider it a beta because I don't consider it fully feature complete, but I think that like in a month or two, we will cover the like overwhelming majority of stuff that comes up in that first call.
[00:24:42.360 --> 00:24:48.240] And now I feel like I'm wearing an account executive hat again, going back to like, I mean, literally 12 years ago when I did that.
[00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:52.080] And I'm like, I have qualification questions where I'm like, okay, like, do you do this, this, or that?
[00:24:52.080 --> 00:24:53.040] Do this or that?
[00:24:53.040 --> 00:24:56.080] And then at the end, I'm like, okay, I know what implementation is going to look like.
[00:24:56.080 --> 00:24:58.960] So, so that feels more enterprise-y as well.
[00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:03.600] Any idea when folks will start paying you to use your Salesforce integration?
[00:25:03.600 --> 00:25:04.640] Or is that already happening?
[00:25:04.800 --> 00:25:05.360] Already happening.
[00:25:05.360 --> 00:25:05.600] It is.
[00:25:05.760 --> 00:25:05.920] Okay.
[00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:07.440] It's in the data, but they're paying for it.
[00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:08.080] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:25:08.080 --> 00:25:08.800] Already happening.
[00:25:08.800 --> 00:25:10.560] We had our first one, I think, in December.
[00:25:10.560 --> 00:25:12.080] And so this is February now.
[00:25:12.080 --> 00:25:13.920] And then January, February.
[00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:20.000] And I mean, honestly, like, this is kind of weird, but I'm actually kind of enjoying building for it because it does so many things.
[00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:26.560] And I think what they're doing with AgentForce is really interesting because we're kind of like, we play on the data context layer.
[00:25:26.560 --> 00:25:32.160] And so once that's in the CRM, there's actually a lot of stuff you can do with the outbound sync data for like automation and AI stuff.
[00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:34.000] And so I like their, what I like what they're doing with AI.
[00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:36.320] So we, yeah, we have pink customers.
[00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:38.640] Santoso is like another one of those.
[00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:43.280] And I think I'm increasing prices now as we're doing more.
[00:25:43.280 --> 00:25:44.800] And I feel more confident on the call.
[00:25:44.800 --> 00:25:46.160] And I'm like, we can do this with this.
[00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:48.640] Like, I'm like, I know that took time.
[00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:50.800] So I'm going to make you please pay me for it.
[00:25:50.800 --> 00:25:54.880] You know, whereas before it was kind of like, I don't even know if this thing's going to like fully work.
[00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:58.640] So if you, if you want to take a flyer on me, we can see what happens.
[00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:00.480] But now it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do it.
[00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:01.440] You know.
[00:26:01.760 --> 00:26:11.120] So between now and the next time we talk, which probably couple months has been our usual cadence, what are you most excited about in the business?
[00:26:11.120 --> 00:26:16.240] I've been pushing really hard on like getting instantly and SaaS mail and email by sitting in Salesforce.
[00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:22.960] And I really just want to get them like full feature parity because it's, it's like a lot of explaining.
[00:26:23.120 --> 00:26:25.280] Like, oh, we don't do that yet, but it's coming soon.
[00:26:25.280 --> 00:26:28.720] I feel like that will be, and I think, I think we'll also get to 30K around that time.
[00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:31.720] And that'll feel like V1 of this as a company.
[00:26:29.360 --> 00:26:36.920] It's like a legit software company that's profitable, that has a handful of really legit integrations.
[00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:45.000] So that I'm excited to like not have to be like talking in circles around like, well, yes, we support instantly in Salesforce, but we have this one feature that's not there yet.
[00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:46.120] That's just like kind of annoying.
[00:26:46.120 --> 00:26:47.880] And I know it's annoying for our CSM too.
[00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:48.360] He's fine.
[00:26:48.360 --> 00:26:49.000] You know, it's fine.
[00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:50.760] He's doing great, but it's, you know.
[00:26:50.760 --> 00:26:55.160] So that I'm excited to just be like, really, really objectively looking forward to that.
[00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:58.120] I'm excited about MicroConf in a couple weeks.
[00:26:58.120 --> 00:27:00.440] That'll be really fun to like meet up with our cohort.
[00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:03.560] I'm so myopically focused on getting to 30K right now.
[00:27:03.560 --> 00:27:05.160] Somebody asked me, like, what's next after that?
[00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:09.320] And I'm like, I don't, like, I honestly have no idea.
[00:27:09.320 --> 00:27:10.440] That's the next peak.
[00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:11.400] I can't even see beyond.
[00:27:11.560 --> 00:27:11.800] Exactly.
[00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:14.520] I got to get there and then look.
[00:27:14.520 --> 00:27:15.400] Yeah, exactly.
[00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:18.360] So I'm just like, so, so, so tunnel-based on that.
[00:27:18.360 --> 00:27:23.960] And I don't know if that's good or bad, but I literally can't think about, I mean, I have broad idea, but like, you know.
[00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:25.800] You're, well, I'll tell you what it is.
[00:27:25.800 --> 00:27:28.920] It's 41,667, which is half a million, 500K.
[00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:29.720] Or that's usually.
[00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:31.080] I've been down this road.
[00:27:31.080 --> 00:27:35.640] I know exactly the first is 40K and then it's 41.667 and then it's 50K.
[00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:43.880] I mean, it's pretty, pretty easy, but the question is, you know, do the current integrations and the, you know, the current way you're executing, does that allow you to get there?
[00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:45.560] Do you have to make adjustments?
[00:27:47.800 --> 00:27:52.200] Harris seems to be on a tear with a trajectory that just keeps going up.
[00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:55.400] But with all that growth, hurdles are bound to show up.
[00:27:55.400 --> 00:27:58.520] Will his bet on SOC2 and marketplaces pay off?
[00:27:58.520 --> 00:28:02.120] And will he need to raise an additional round to keep up with growth?
[00:28:02.120 --> 00:28:06.440] We'll talk about that and more next time on Tiny Seed Tales.
[00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:11.720] I hope you enjoyed this episode.
[00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:23.360] If you've ever wondered what it's really like inside Tiny Seed and want to hear a raw, candid coaching conversation between Harris and I, we've put together something special for you at tinyseed.com/slash bonus.
[00:28:23.360 --> 00:28:24.320] You should check it out.
[00:28:24.320 --> 00:28:26.720] I've never released anything like this before.
[00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:27.680] I hope you enjoy it.
[00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:30.480] It's at tinyseed.com/slash bonus.