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[00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:20.160] This podcast is hosted by transistor.fm welcome to build your sass.
[00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:25.120] This is the behind the scenes story of building a web app in 2023.
[00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:32.480] I'm Justin, and today I have an internet friend joining me, Aaron Francis.
[00:00:32.800 --> 00:00:34.000] How's it going, Aaron?
[00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:34.400] Good.
[00:00:35.040 --> 00:00:36.240] It's exciting to be here.
[00:00:36.240 --> 00:00:38.800] I'm a long time listener, first time caller.
[00:00:40.400 --> 00:00:42.880] This is the first time we've talked.
[00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:48.800] And it's very strange because I listen to you all the time.
[00:00:48.800 --> 00:00:50.960] You have had a few podcasts.
[00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:55.280] You have the Hammerstone podcast, right?
[00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:57.280] Framework Friends.
[00:00:57.280 --> 00:00:58.800] Am I missing anything?
[00:00:59.360 --> 00:01:02.720] A long time ago, I had one called The Music Makers.
[00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:08.960] That was like six or seven years ago, but it is now defunct.
[00:01:08.960 --> 00:01:10.960] So that was my first podcast.
[00:01:10.960 --> 00:01:11.840] All right.
[00:01:12.160 --> 00:01:17.920] Well, I listen to your voice all the time, and I also interact with you all the time on Twitter.
[00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:34.800] And we are going to discuss a pretty hot topic this time, which is can you bootstrap a new startup and do that while you have young kids at the same time?
[00:01:34.800 --> 00:01:42.560] So can you bootstrap a family and bootstrap a new company at the same time?
[00:01:42.880 --> 00:02:03.480] And I had a Twitter thread on this, and then I also wrote kind of a blog post that encompassed some of my thoughts, which is me really reflecting on trying to build multiple things when my kids were young, and now wondering if that was the best idea.
[00:02:03.480 --> 00:02:17.320] If I should have just maybe waited a bit longer to do both, just because as you know, starting a family is a lot of energy and requires a lot of focus and a lot of time.
[00:02:17.320 --> 00:02:22.120] And birthing a company also is a lot of energy and a lot of time.
[00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:22.920] Yeah.
[00:02:22.920 --> 00:02:35.320] So maybe to start out, for folks who don't know you, explain kind of what you're doing right now professionally and then share as much about your family situation as you'd like.
[00:02:35.320 --> 00:02:37.000] So yeah, what are you doing professionally?
[00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:40.360] And then what's the parenting situation right now?
[00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:45.240] Professionally, I have a full-time job at a company called Planet Scale.
[00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:48.920] We're a MySQL platform company.
[00:02:48.920 --> 00:02:58.120] So I work full-time, full-time job as a developer educator, which means I basically, you know, make a bunch of videos, write a bunch of articles.
[00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:01.960] I did recently, I did a very big course on MySQL.
[00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:04.520] And so that is amazing, by the way.
[00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:09.320] As a sidestep, I think folks should go check that out.
[00:03:09.320 --> 00:03:10.440] How do they search for that?
[00:03:10.440 --> 00:03:14.200] It's just like, is it MySQL Planet Scale?
[00:03:14.200 --> 00:03:14.760] Will that find?
[00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:16.440] Yeah, that way that would be probably do it.
[00:03:16.440 --> 00:03:20.840] MySQL for developers, Planet Scale would probably, would probably do it better.
[00:03:20.840 --> 00:03:23.960] PlanetScale.com/slash courses would get you there as well.
[00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:24.680] It's awesome.
[00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:26.040] People should check it out.
[00:03:26.040 --> 00:03:26.440] Thanks.
[00:03:26.440 --> 00:03:34.120] Yeah, it was a lot of fun and a huge amount of work, which we can talk about as part of what we're talking about here.
[00:03:34.600 --> 00:03:42.520] Because I, you know, work at this company, which I love, and I love, you know, the stuff that I do there, which I think is important.
[00:03:42.920 --> 00:03:47.120] But I'm also trying to bootstrap a company on the side.
[00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:54.800] And so I have a partner named Colleen, and she and I have been working on this for like two years now.
[00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:59.280] And it is not like, it is not successful yet.
[00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:02.960] It is not making us enough money to where I can quit.
[00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:08.800] And so I'm kind of like, I'm kind of at the very beginning of this, or, you know, hopefully in the middle.
[00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:16.880] And so when I was seeing you talk about this on Twitter, I was like, I will like, we can do an old-fashioned, like an old-fashioned debate.
[00:04:16.880 --> 00:04:18.240] And like, I'll take the other side.
[00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:26.880] Like, I have, I think I have some things to say on the other side because I also am dad to two-year-olds.
[00:04:26.880 --> 00:04:31.680] So I have, I have boygirl twins, and they turned two on Saturday.
[00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:33.280] So just like a few days ago.
[00:04:33.280 --> 00:04:34.480] So yeah.
[00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:37.600] So I've very much in it.
[00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:38.400] Yes.
[00:04:38.400 --> 00:04:44.400] You were in it like you were, you were already on level two right before, right when you started.
[00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:45.360] Yeah, exactly.
[00:04:45.520 --> 00:04:48.560] Or you're playing level one, but with two controllers at the same time.
[00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:49.520] What metaphor is that?
[00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:51.760] Whichever one of those is harder.
[00:04:51.760 --> 00:04:52.560] Yeah.
[00:04:53.840 --> 00:04:54.320] Yeah.
[00:04:54.880 --> 00:04:57.840] I can play one character at a time, but I have to play two.
[00:04:58.160 --> 00:04:58.480] Yeah.
[00:04:58.480 --> 00:04:58.960] Yeah.
[00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:03.200] On that note, the good thing for us is we never had just one child.
[00:05:03.200 --> 00:05:04.560] So we're like, I don't know.
[00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:06.880] I guess this is as hard as it is.
[00:05:06.880 --> 00:05:12.160] Like, I decided I don't have anything to look back fondly on and be like, oh, when there was just one of them.
[00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:13.920] It's like, well, they're both here now.
[00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:16.560] So cool.
[00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:20.000] Well, I think that sets things up perfectly.
[00:05:20.400 --> 00:05:33.160] I was just looking for this tweet that I saw you had, which was something to the effect of you feel like you're in this stage of life where you want to be kind of going after it.
[00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:33.560] Yeah.
[00:05:29.840 --> 00:05:36.200] I call it my maximum effort era.
[00:05:36.760 --> 00:05:37.960] Maximum effort era.
[00:05:37.960 --> 00:05:39.560] So maybe explain that for me.
[00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:43.880] What does it mean to be in maximum effort era?
[00:05:43.880 --> 00:05:44.200] Yeah.
[00:05:44.200 --> 00:05:47.320] So this is something I've been thinking about a lot.
[00:05:47.320 --> 00:05:56.600] I think primarily since the twins have come and, you know, Colleen and I are trying to bootstrap this company and I'm trying to, my wife is a stay-at-home mom.
[00:05:56.600 --> 00:05:59.560] She works harder than I do, but she works at home, right?
[00:05:59.560 --> 00:06:02.600] And so I'm the sole breadwinner.
[00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:07.560] And so like, I feel a lot of that, I feel a lot of that pressure.
[00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:11.160] I feel a lot of that weight of responsibility.
[00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:24.520] And so I think I at some point just decided that I was okay saying that for this period of time, and I don't know what, I don't know when this period of time ends.
[00:06:24.520 --> 00:06:31.800] And I think that's an important thing to note, but for this period of time, this is going to be a lot of work.
[00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:36.920] And I'm going to put in the maximum amount of effort that I can.
[00:06:36.920 --> 00:06:47.400] And the latter half of that tweet was, at some point in my life, I would like to enter into the semi-retired leisurely builder era of my life.
[00:06:47.400 --> 00:06:54.440] I would like to do the Daniel Vasalo where I just kind of like hang out and do a small bet and make, you know, $200,000.
[00:06:54.440 --> 00:06:56.520] But like, I'm not there yet.
[00:06:56.520 --> 00:06:58.680] And I think it was helpful for me.
[00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:05.480] It was helpful for me to put a name on it to say, like, I see things that I want.
[00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:10.440] I see, you know, Adam Wathan and Ben Ornstein, like running these companies.
[00:07:10.440 --> 00:07:15.760] And now you and John running these companies where you do have margin and you do have freedom.
[00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:19.920] I see that and I want that, but I'm not there.
[00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:28.960] And to put a name on what where I am, which is my maximum effort era, has helped me mentally be like, okay, this is the thing that you're doing right now.
[00:07:28.960 --> 00:07:35.280] And this is importantly an era that won't last forever because I'll tell you, it can't last forever.
[00:07:35.520 --> 00:07:38.960] And that has helped me mentally get to a good spot with that.
[00:07:38.960 --> 00:07:39.840] Yeah, yeah.
[00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:55.840] I think, I mean, a lot of people listening to this can identify with that thought of, I mean, it's what drives a lot of people to want to start their own company is this idea of I want something better for my family.
[00:07:55.840 --> 00:08:09.200] This has actually been in the past when I've had not disagreements, but sometimes there's folks in the bootstrapper community, you know, we have things where we don't understand each other.
[00:08:09.200 --> 00:08:21.760] And when we got on a call, what ended up being true was that this particular thing was, I think someone had said, you know, the money wasn't a big motivator for them.
[00:08:22.080 --> 00:08:26.160] And I was like, the money's always been a big motivator for me.
[00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:36.400] And, you know, money is ultimately, the line would be: money is ultimately not a, you know, it's not a worthwhile goal.
[00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:40.160] And I said, the money has always been a worthwhile goal for me.
[00:08:40.160 --> 00:08:46.800] And I think what we ended up realizing was this person wasn't married and didn't have kids.
[00:08:46.800 --> 00:08:55.680] And when you're on the other side of that, and you're, all you're really thinking about is like, how can I provide a good life for my family?
[00:08:55.680 --> 00:09:08.280] And a lot of that has to do with A, money, and then B, kind of the flexibility and freedom and autonomy that can come from owning your own business.
[00:09:08.920 --> 00:09:12.040] So, and does that kind of describe your goal?
[00:09:12.040 --> 00:09:23.480] Like, if you're thinking that the end result for the maximum effort era, you've said, you know, I see these people running companies and that's what I want.
[00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:26.440] It's, it's all of these things in a row.
[00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:31.880] Yeah, I think that, I think that does pretty accurately describe the end goal.
[00:09:31.880 --> 00:09:37.320] I'm, I'm, I think with you on that side of that conversation, like the money is a motivator.
[00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:38.840] Yes, absolutely.
[00:09:38.840 --> 00:09:40.680] The money, the money is a motivator.
[00:09:40.680 --> 00:09:42.440] Like, kids need clothes.
[00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:44.600] They need, you know, rooms to live in.
[00:09:44.600 --> 00:09:51.240] Like, yeah, yeah, they're going to share a room because they're twins, but hello, like, we need space in a house and houses cost money.
[00:09:52.040 --> 00:09:54.040] So, yeah, the money's a motivator.
[00:09:54.040 --> 00:10:01.000] I think there's a, and you know, unfortunately, in the U.S., healthcare is a motivator, which sucks, and healthcare is expensive.
[00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:05.240] And so, all of that, like, all of that wrapped up is motivation.
[00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:09.080] There is also, so like, that's the very, that's the very practical.
[00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:12.520] What is my duty as a husband and a father?
[00:10:12.520 --> 00:10:16.520] And the, you know, in our case, the sole breadwinner of the household.
[00:10:16.520 --> 00:10:17.720] Like, what are my duties?
[00:10:17.720 --> 00:10:19.960] And I take that extremely seriously.
[00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:24.200] I think there is also like, what are, what are my hopes and dreams, man?
[00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:26.360] Like, what are, what is my duty to myself?
[00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:31.400] And what are the things that like I want to do with my life?
[00:10:31.400 --> 00:10:35.560] And like, those things, those things super matter.
[00:10:35.560 --> 00:10:44.040] And there are things that I am willing to sacrifice to try to make, we'll say for shorthand, to try to make my dreams come true.
[00:10:44.040 --> 00:10:46.560] And there are things I'm not willing to sacrifice.
[00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:50.880] And I think that's an important, like, that's an important thing to talk about.
[00:10:51.040 --> 00:10:53.040] Like, what are you sacrificing?
[00:10:53.040 --> 00:10:56.480] And for what are you sacrificing?
[00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:58.960] Because there's kind of two sides to that equation.
[00:10:58.960 --> 00:10:59.360] Yeah.
[00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:07.360] So maybe describe for me what on what are you willing to sacrifice and what have you kind of outlined as like the no-go zone?
[00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:11.680] Like I can't sacrifice this as I'm and just to be clear.
[00:11:11.680 --> 00:11:24.160] So right now you've got a full-time job, you've got twins at home, and on the side, you're trying to bootstrap a brand new software company with a co-founder, which I think is also another variable.
[00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:53.600] And you're still trying, you're working maximum effort, meaning I get up, maximum effort on being a dad, maximum effort on being a spouse, maximum effort on working for my employer, and then on the side, maximum effort on business building, which for you also has meant building my profile on Twitter, building up, speaking at a bunch of conferences.
[00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:58.080] This is maximum effort in a spectrum of things.
[00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:01.520] In many directions, but importantly, not every direction.
[00:12:01.520 --> 00:12:01.840] Yeah.
[00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:04.480] Yeah, it is maximum effort.
[00:12:04.800 --> 00:12:06.960] So describe the shape for me.
[00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:08.560] What are the contours of all that?
[00:12:08.560 --> 00:12:08.880] Yeah.
[00:12:08.880 --> 00:12:15.600] So for example, for example, that course that we spoke about earlier for Planet Scale, that was maximum effort.
[00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:28.560] That was incredibly difficult because I'm like putting myself out there as the MySQL expert at a company that claims to be the industry-leading MySQL company.
[00:12:28.560 --> 00:12:40.840] And so, you can imagine the pressure of being like the public face of a public company in a world of database experts that want to find the places that you were wrong, right?
[00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:44.440] So, you can imagine like the amount of effort that goes into that, the amount of production.
[00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:47.560] You know, that shooting video is really production intense.
[00:12:47.560 --> 00:12:50.520] And, like, it came out great.
[00:12:50.520 --> 00:12:53.560] And I am so proud of it.
[00:12:53.560 --> 00:12:56.040] And that's because I put in a huge amount of effort, right?
[00:12:56.360 --> 00:13:01.400] So, I think, yes, maximum effort in all of those directions.
[00:13:01.400 --> 00:13:04.840] And to the question of like, what am I willing to sacrifice?
[00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:07.000] A lot of other things is the answer.
[00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:12.280] I think, like, we talk about we being like the community.
[00:13:12.280 --> 00:13:15.960] We talk about you shouldn't sacrifice certain things.
[00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:18.600] And I think that's missing half of the conversation.
[00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:21.320] Like, what are you sacrificing for?
[00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:26.040] So, there's the thing you're sacrificing and the thing for which you are sacrificing, right?
[00:13:26.040 --> 00:13:38.360] And so, to draw like, to draw an absurd, you could say, like, I am willing to sacrifice my own life for the lives of my children 100%.
[00:13:38.680 --> 00:13:41.720] Like, if there's a car coming, I know which one of us is going to get hit.
[00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:43.960] Like, that's an easy thing to say.
[00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:46.600] I'm willing to sacrifice my life for this.
[00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:47.240] Yeah.
[00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:56.600] However, I am not willing to sacrifice my life so that PlanetScale could make a sale that they wouldn't otherwise make.
[00:13:56.600 --> 00:13:57.240] Right.
[00:13:57.400 --> 00:13:59.960] And so that equation is out of balance.
[00:13:59.960 --> 00:14:04.920] Like, I'm willing to sacrifice my life 100%, but for what?
[00:14:04.920 --> 00:14:08.760] Not for, not so that Planet Scale can close a deal, right?
[00:14:08.760 --> 00:14:09.160] Yeah.
[00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:11.160] So that's the absurd, right?
[00:14:11.160 --> 00:14:15.000] So then you have to like kind of back it down to what are the reasonables.
[00:14:15.760 --> 00:14:21.680] And so then the question becomes like, am I willing to sacrifice sleep?
[00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:25.600] Am I willing to sacrifice sleep to spend more time on Twitter?
[00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:28.320] I want to say no, because that's what I believe.
[00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.200] Sometimes that doesn't, you know, that's not true objectively.
[00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:36.800] But like, I'm not willing to sacrifice sleep to spend more time arguing with people on hacker news.
[00:14:36.800 --> 00:14:38.320] I am not willing to do that.
[00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:43.840] I am willing to sacrifice sleep to hopefully make my dreams come true.
[00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:47.280] And like, that's the kind of trade-off that I'm working with right now.
[00:14:47.280 --> 00:14:52.320] Is like, I wake up as early as I can and every day I don't want to get out of bed.
[00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:55.840] Every day I'm like, I would rather sleep in.
[00:14:56.400 --> 00:15:13.840] But the question is, are you going to sleep in and then not work on your side project that you're hoping is going to become a thing at some point and in some way is going to fulfill this dream that you can't quite put your finger on?
[00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:15.840] Or are you going to, are you going to sleep in?
[00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:19.600] And that's a question I ask myself every single morning.
[00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:20.720] What time are you waking up?
[00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:29.360] So these days I'm waking up at about six and come straight out here to the shed, the shed quarters, which is where I work, and do all my stuff in the morning.
[00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:36.160] And then at about 7:30 or 45, depending on the morning, I text my wife because I'm out in the shed quarters.
[00:15:36.160 --> 00:15:37.360] I'm like 30 or 45.
[00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:39.440] And she'll text back 30 or 45.
[00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:46.800] And so I come in at 7:30 or 45 and help with, you know, getting them out of bed, doing breakfast, doing all that kind of stuff.
[00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:51.360] And then I'm back out here at 8:30, between 8:30 and 9.
[00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:52.640] So I work from home.
[00:15:52.640 --> 00:15:54.560] So I have a lot of things going for me, right?
[00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:56.640] My wife is a stay-at-home mom.
[00:15:56.640 --> 00:15:57.360] I work from home.
[00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:00.680] So I literally walk across the back deck.
[00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:02.120] I have a lot of other things.
[00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:04.200] Like I have a partner in my side project.
[00:16:04.520 --> 00:16:08.200] So I have these things going for me that I'm very cognizant of.
[00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:13.560] And none of this is prescriptive because no one else is in my exact situation.
[00:16:13.560 --> 00:16:17.640] But at nine o'clock, I come back out and it's like time to start working for the day.
[00:16:17.640 --> 00:16:19.000] And so I work remotely.
[00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:19.880] That's another thing.
[00:16:19.880 --> 00:16:21.640] Like my full-time job is remote.
[00:16:21.640 --> 00:16:22.760] I don't go into the office.
[00:16:23.160 --> 00:16:24.680] And then I work all day.
[00:16:24.680 --> 00:16:31.960] And then at night, like 5:30 or 6, depending on, you know, when the boss tells me it's dinner time, I go in and I help with the kids' dinner.
[00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:36.520] And so, you know, we do kids' dinner at like an absurd hour.
[00:16:36.520 --> 00:16:38.120] They eat at like 5:30.
[00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:40.840] And I'm like, wow, you guys are so early.
[00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:41.560] Why are you eating?
[00:16:41.560 --> 00:16:42.520] But, you know, they're two.
[00:16:43.560 --> 00:16:47.160] And then I help put them to bed and then I do the dishes.
[00:16:47.160 --> 00:16:48.680] And then my wife and I will eat.
[00:16:48.680 --> 00:16:52.520] And then it's a question of like, are we hanging out, me and her?
[00:16:52.520 --> 00:16:54.280] Or is she going somewhere?
[00:16:54.280 --> 00:16:55.080] Am I going somewhere?
[00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:56.360] Or is it back to work?
[00:16:56.360 --> 00:16:59.160] And that's when the rest of the side work gets done.
[00:16:59.160 --> 00:17:05.160] And then weekends are, you know, similar, different, but that's the basic structure of a day.
[00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:05.720] Yeah.
[00:17:05.720 --> 00:17:09.880] I mean, I think the context, obviously, context is everything.
[00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:16.360] So this question: can you bootstrap a new startup when you have young kids?
[00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:18.760] The answer is it depends.
[00:17:18.760 --> 00:17:27.560] Especially in North America, there's this continuous thread of rugged individualism, Protestant work ethic.
[00:17:27.560 --> 00:17:30.760] I'm going to hustle culture.
[00:17:30.760 --> 00:17:39.800] You know, most notably, Gary Vaynerchuk was kind of like, I'll stay up till your eyeballs bleed, and did that when he had young kids.
[00:17:40.040 --> 00:17:41.800] He's now divorced, I think.
[00:17:41.800 --> 00:17:44.320] You know, context matters in all of this.
[00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:49.360] And there's so many factors, and I think you've highlighted some of them.
[00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:52.080] Number one, do you have a job?
[00:17:52.080 --> 00:17:54.400] Number two, how demanding is that job?
[00:17:54.400 --> 00:18:00.080] Number three, do you work remote or are you commuting every day?
[00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:04.880] Number four, where's your partner in all of this?
[00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:07.520] And that is a massive question.
[00:18:07.840 --> 00:18:08.480] Yeah.
[00:18:11.040 --> 00:18:31.920] The response to the Twitter thread was there's quite a few people who said they thought that starting trying to bootstrap a company on top of having young kids would only be possible if your spouse was a superhero doing 90% of the housework and child care.
[00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:40.320] Part of my thinking in all of this, I think sometimes I just want to be careful of my own when I'm discussing things.
[00:18:40.320 --> 00:18:42.800] I want to be careful of that.
[00:18:43.680 --> 00:19:08.720] Well, I know I want to be careful when I'm communicating to people to say, if I'm going to give general advice, the advice would be, it depends, but you really need to think through a lot of issues and some things that are easy to maybe even rationalize in the meantime, which is, I think my spouse is on top in this, you know, I think that, and they're a superhero.
[00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:09.920] They're superhuman.
[00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:11.440] They can do this with me.
[00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:13.520] Humans are just actually humans.
[00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:16.000] We're all actually normal.
[00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:18.080] None of us are really super.
[00:19:18.080 --> 00:19:34.280] The difference between saying, for example, hey, honey, I'm going to really put maximum effort into my job right now because there's a high chance that if I put maximum effort into my career, there's a high chance I'm going to get promoted.
[00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:41.880] And that could mean us going from $100,000 to $130,000 or $130,000 to $180,000.
[00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:44.520] And those jumps are significant.
[00:19:45.080 --> 00:19:55.400] The challenge with the business is that you are risking, you're making this bet that requires an enormous amount of energy, time, focus.
[00:19:55.720 --> 00:20:00.680] And in some ways, at least for me, I guess this is where the individual comes in.
[00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:05.560] You know, when I'm really good on Twitter, I'm thinking about tweets all the time.
[00:20:05.560 --> 00:20:07.000] All the time.
[00:20:07.320 --> 00:20:17.240] And when I'm really good and fully on maximum effort with business, I'm thinking about stuff all the time.
[00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:17.880] Sure.
[00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:22.360] And that is obviously going to take my focus away from other things.
[00:20:22.360 --> 00:20:26.120] The risk you're doing, you're making a bet.
[00:20:26.120 --> 00:20:31.560] And with business, it's just very likely that a lot of those bets aren't going to pay off.
[00:20:31.560 --> 00:20:32.920] And that was certainly true for me.
[00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:37.000] I've had multiple bets throughout my adult life.
[00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:41.080] We had kids pretty young, so 22 is when we had Sadie.
[00:20:41.080 --> 00:20:50.760] You know, I was making bets there, and some of those bets were maximum effort, cost a lot, and didn't pan out.
[00:20:50.760 --> 00:20:57.400] I've got an inbox full of people who are sometimes in the same situation.
[00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:05.640] They're like, I'm risking it all right now, or I'm risking a big, you know, I'm taking this bet right now.
[00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:12.520] And sometimes my advice is, you know, you can take those bets, but the foundation you're building this on matters a lot.
[00:21:12.520 --> 00:21:22.560] And sometimes it just makes sense to wait until the kids are out of diapers or until the kids are in school before you take that bet.
[00:21:23.040 --> 00:21:24.960] And a lot of it has to do with margin.
[00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:29.280] Like, if I lose this bet, how much can I afford to lose?
[00:21:29.760 --> 00:21:37.040] If I lose this bet, will this, you know, send our family into a tailspin or me into a tailspin?
[00:21:37.280 --> 00:21:49.680] So that's, I think, part of where I'm coming from is the to be a counter narrative where, you know, American dream, American Protestant work ethic, all that stuff.
[00:21:51.280 --> 00:21:54.160] The balance on that is to say, well, hold on.
[00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:55.520] You could wait.
[00:21:55.520 --> 00:21:57.920] My wife and I did this after a first business.
[00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:01.680] We had a retail business, a couple snowboard shops didn't work out.
[00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:05.440] She said, and this is probably part of the picture too, is right?
[00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:06.560] What does your spouse say?
[00:22:06.560 --> 00:22:13.760] She said, I would really appreciate it if you just took a break from this until the kids are in school.
[00:22:13.760 --> 00:22:14.400] So we did.
[00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:18.720] You know, I just worked on career for the next however many years that was.
[00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:31.760] And I felt like that was a good decision to just wait and work on other things in the background, you know, do a little audience building, make some connections, get some skills.
[00:22:31.760 --> 00:22:33.920] Anyway, so that's part of where I'm coming from.
[00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:36.720] What do you think about all of that?
[00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:39.680] Yeah, I think everything you've said is eminently reasonable.
[00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:46.240] And I think that's the interesting thing about the discussion is that there are many reasonable takes.
[00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:50.320] And I think it's incredibly important.
[00:22:50.320 --> 00:22:58.800] I think as a covering of every reasonable take, it's incredibly important that people think about this and figure it out for themselves.
[00:22:58.800 --> 00:23:05.000] So I think a lot of times, obviously, it's hard to have nuance on Twitter.
[00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:06.680] That's not what it was invented for.
[00:23:07.800 --> 00:23:16.120] So I think a lot of times we'll see the narrative and the counter narrative, and then we come back to me, which is the counter-counter narrative, right?
[00:23:16.120 --> 00:23:17.720] Which is basically the original narrative.
[00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:19.880] Like you got to freaking work hard.
[00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:22.360] And so I think a lot of things.
[00:23:22.360 --> 00:24:34.720] So let's start with like the people and you yourself who were saying like it's a bet and you're taking these bets and what if they don't pay off right yeah I feel pretty exposed on that right now because Colleen and my our business isn't working right so like like we're not making we're at the very beginning I don't have the benefit to look back and rewrite some story and say this is like this is what you should do because I did I'm like I have no idea I am in between trapezes hoping that I catch the next one and I'm on the show right now recording it in stone and I have no idea if I'm gonna catch the next one or I'm gonna fall right and so yeah I feel that intimately like I know that it's a bet and I know that it might not work what I will say again is I'll go back to like I'll go back to the sacrifice equation of like what am I willing to sacrifice and what am I not willing to sacrifice so let's talk about I think there are stakeholders in this right me as an individual my spouse and my kids I am not willing to sacrifice time with my kids.
[00:24:34.760 --> 00:24:37.440] I'm just, I'm not willing to do it.
[00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:40.960] We, my kids and I, can't have an informed discussion about that.
[00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:42.880] They are two years old, right?
[00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:54.480] So, I'm not, I'm not willing to say, like, I'm not willing to say, hey, I would love to be inside for breakfast and be inside for dinner, but dad is working on his dream.
[00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:55.440] I'm, I'm sorry.
[00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.240] Like, that is a reasonable decision to make.
[00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:01.680] That's one that I have made and I've made it the other way.
[00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:03.920] And I've said, I'm going to be inside for breakfast.
[00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:06.000] I'm going to be inside for dinner.
[00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:10.160] Like, and there are things that I would maybe rather do.
[00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:13.760] I've decided this is more important to be with my kids.
[00:25:13.760 --> 00:25:15.200] So, there's that.
[00:25:15.520 --> 00:25:22.800] Then there's the question of like, what have, like, what about other things like time with my spouse?
[00:25:22.800 --> 00:25:30.800] And that's different because she and I can talk about that and come to an agreement as a unit and be like, okay, what are, like, what's important?
[00:25:30.800 --> 00:25:31.840] What's not important?
[00:25:31.840 --> 00:25:36.560] Is it important that we watch two hours of TV together every night?
[00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:38.800] No, turns out it's not.
[00:25:38.800 --> 00:25:40.560] Like, that's fun.
[00:25:40.560 --> 00:25:43.280] Turns out that's really not that important.
[00:25:43.280 --> 00:25:47.600] Does she care if I work instead of watch TV with her?
[00:25:47.600 --> 00:25:48.320] She doesn't.
[00:25:48.320 --> 00:25:52.640] Your spouse, you know, your, you, the listener, your spouse might, mine doesn't, right?
[00:25:53.040 --> 00:25:55.680] So that's like two, two different parties.
[00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:59.200] I think the third party is me, right?
[00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:05.600] So there are things that I can sacrifice that really kind of only affect me.
[00:26:05.600 --> 00:26:10.400] I mean, there are externalities, but like I can decide to get up earlier.
[00:26:10.800 --> 00:26:25.840] I can decide to get up earlier and I can decide that to me, it is more important that I try to fulfill whatever this thing inside of me is than that I sleep until 7:30 and then walk out and get the kids up.
[00:26:25.840 --> 00:26:30.000] Like, there is an amount of time and there is a sacrifice I can make.
[00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:33.880] I can decide, I can decide that I don't watch sports.
[00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:42.760] Like, I don't really have a huge desire to watch sports, but I also don't spend my entire Sunday watching NFL football because I do not care.
[00:26:42.760 --> 00:26:54.680] And I think there's something more important, and I want like, I want to give something up to have the space to work on this thing that I want to come true in my life.
[00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:56.200] I don't have other hobbies.
[00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:58.360] People are like, What are your hobbies?
[00:26:58.360 --> 00:27:00.040] Man, my hobbies are work.
[00:27:00.040 --> 00:27:00.520] Yeah.
[00:27:00.520 --> 00:27:03.160] And that is a decision that I've, that I've made.
[00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:06.200] I, I like, I don't even, I can't even make up a hobby.
[00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:09.960] Like, I guess also sports, like playing basketball maybe is a hobby.
[00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:11.640] I don't have that hobby.
[00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:15.320] My hobby, my hobby is trying to make my dreams come true.
[00:27:15.320 --> 00:27:17.080] And is it worth it?
[00:27:17.080 --> 00:27:18.680] Um, it's a risk.
[00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:19.320] Yeah.
[00:27:19.320 --> 00:27:20.200] But, yeah.
[00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:29.400] But the equation is not, I'm going to sacrifice the youth of my children to try to build a business and then have the business fail.
[00:27:29.560 --> 00:27:31.640] Like, that is an equation that is too far for me.
[00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:33.320] I'm too risk averse to take that.
[00:27:33.320 --> 00:27:37.480] And I think personally for me, that would make me regret my life.
[00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:38.360] And I don't want that.
[00:27:38.360 --> 00:27:40.920] I want to regret very little if possible.
[00:27:40.920 --> 00:27:41.400] Yeah.
[00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:58.520] If I look back, if I look back in 10 years and the business has failed and I am sleepier than I otherwise would be and I sacrificed a lot of like, you know, fun nights and weekends, like, I don't know, go-karting or whatever hobbies are.
[00:27:58.520 --> 00:28:07.080] Like, that's a, that's a thing I'm willing to look back on and say that sacrifice was worth it, even if it didn't play out.
[00:28:07.080 --> 00:28:10.840] How much are you sacrificing other things like friendships?
[00:28:10.840 --> 00:28:13.400] In my estimation, very little.
[00:28:13.400 --> 00:28:18.320] So, um, I do uh, I do a it's the weirdest schedule.
[00:28:14.600 --> 00:28:21.600] Once every three weeks, I go to breakfast with a big group of guys.
[00:28:21.600 --> 00:28:25.840] We do a Bible study every Wednesday night, we go to church every Sunday.
[00:28:25.840 --> 00:28:29.600] I see friends probably once or twice a weekend.
[00:28:29.600 --> 00:28:32.240] So, I see friends quite a bit, actually.
[00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:34.240] Okay, that's pretty good.
[00:28:34.800 --> 00:28:38.800] Yeah, especially for a 34-year-old with you know, with kids, that's a lot.
[00:28:38.800 --> 00:28:49.840] You're right, like that, the way you split that up is was great because uh you know, you've got your kids, your spouse, and then you've got you.
[00:28:50.160 --> 00:29:11.200] And the you part is tricky because it really depends on how well you know yourself, how well you really know yourself, how well you can't, you know, for me personally, so much of what you're saying is exactly how I've felt my entire life.
[00:29:11.360 --> 00:29:12.640] Hobbies, what hobbies?
[00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:14.320] Work is my hobby.
[00:29:14.320 --> 00:29:17.280] Um, you know, people say, Well, why can't you just be satisfied?
[00:29:17.280 --> 00:29:18.480] You've got a good job.
[00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:20.880] Why can't you just be satisfied with that?
[00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:25.360] I said, I'm just not content to sit here and do this.
[00:29:25.360 --> 00:29:27.360] Why are you willing to make this risk?
[00:29:27.360 --> 00:29:29.760] Not just one risk, multiple risks.
[00:29:29.760 --> 00:29:31.600] Why are you willing to make these bets?
[00:29:31.600 --> 00:29:34.160] Why are you willing to invest yourself in this thing?
[00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:46.400] And it was because I had this dream that life could be better, that life could be different, that we could get somewhere that would make that could potentially make those bets worthwhile.
[00:29:46.640 --> 00:30:00.280] On the other side of it, now I've been through it, and I think some of my rosiness that I had when I was younger has gone away, especially when it comes to advising other people and what they should do.
[00:30:00.280 --> 00:30:04.600] Because in retrospect, it's like, wow, we made it.
[00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:06.920] So honestly, on this side, it is better.
[00:30:07.080 --> 00:30:08.040] It's just better.
[00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:09.560] I know.
[00:30:10.360 --> 00:30:10.920] I believe that.
[00:30:12.280 --> 00:30:13.480] The money is better.
[00:30:14.040 --> 00:30:15.960] The schedule's better.
[00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:20.440] The sense of purpose is better.
[00:30:20.440 --> 00:30:26.840] When things are going well, this can obviously all of this is still subject to change.
[00:30:27.080 --> 00:30:32.040] And, you know, I have friends who have also achieved this and they're feeling the same way.
[00:30:32.040 --> 00:30:43.160] This is, it's why Tyler Tringus says this is the new American dream because it is substantially, when it works, it's substantially better.
[00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:53.240] But as I've, you know, I've had a blog and a podcast and a community for aspiring bootstrappers for a long time.
[00:30:53.240 --> 00:31:09.000] And giving advice has gotten a lot harder, especially if I'm honest about my experience, which was at the time, I said, you know, when I was really hustling, I felt like, you know, I don't have any hobbies and that's okay.
[00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:11.000] I am willing to sacrifice this thing.
[00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:12.520] It's fine.
[00:31:12.520 --> 00:31:20.920] And there were some things, some blind spots that I didn't see that ended up really affecting me.
[00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:28.600] And I was talking about this with my wife, and I'm like, you know, it's so hard because on one hand, I'm like, this life is better.
[00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:36.600] But on the other hand, I can now see everything you have to pass through to get here, or at least that I did.
[00:31:36.600 --> 00:31:38.680] I'm sure it's easier for some people.
[00:31:38.680 --> 00:32:06.240] The question I don't have an answer to is: can you accomplish all of this without all that risk, without all that pain, without all that, and by risk, I mean like real burnout, like real, like everything comes to a head at the same time, and it's all falling apart, and you don't know if you're going to make it through kind of period.
[00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:10.880] My wife sometimes says, you know, I don't know, maybe that's just how life is.
[00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:16.400] To accomplish something like that, there's just going to be the risk of pain.
[00:32:16.560 --> 00:32:24.640] There's this other part of me, though, that wants to believe that in the same way that other people who have gone ahead of me have been able to reduce some of my pain.
[00:32:25.040 --> 00:32:32.080] Like I've had talks with Jason Cohen that have substantially removed a lot of unneeded pain from my life.
[00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:47.360] I think part of my position now is I'm like, I think there is the potential for some people to avoid some unnecessary pain, some unnecessary risks, some unnecessary pressure.
[00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:59.920] And for some folks, that will mean, hey, I'm just going to wait until for me to ratchet this up.
[00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:03.280] The right advice at the wrong time is the wrong advice, right?
[00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:05.680] That's the hard thing about giving advice.
[00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:11.280] And so I wonder if we could, well, first of all, why don't you respond to that?
[00:33:11.280 --> 00:33:24.880] And then we can go from there maybe in identifying more of those factors, more of those things that might help people make a decision one way or the other in terms of evaluating their own situation.
[00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:27.680] But yeah, any thoughts on what I just said there?
[00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:44.040] Yeah, so to the question of unnecessary pain, unnecessary risk, of course, I don't have any answers, but what I hear a lot is for the purposes of this conversation, you, Justin, you have made it.
[00:33:44.040 --> 00:33:45.400] I'm going to say that you've made it.
[00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:48.440] Whatever that means to people listening, you've made it.
[00:33:48.440 --> 00:33:58.120] I hear a lot of people who have made it say, you all can make it, but like, you don't, don't do it, don't do it the way that I did it.
[00:33:58.120 --> 00:34:04.840] And the way that everyone who has made it, the way that they did it was they worked really freaking hard.
[00:34:04.840 --> 00:34:08.200] And like each one of you, each one of you made separate mistakes.
[00:34:08.200 --> 00:34:11.480] And so Jason Cohen's like, I made mistake A, B, and C, so don't do that.
[00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:13.160] And you're like, ah, fantastic.
[00:34:13.160 --> 00:34:17.800] Adam Wathan's like, I made mistakes D, E, and F because I listened to Jason.
[00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:20.360] But everyone made mistakes.
[00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:25.720] Everyone made tactical mistakes, relational mistakes, you know, mistakes of direction, whatever.
[00:34:26.040 --> 00:34:41.080] But what I see everyone having in common, except maybe Daniel Vasalo and DHH, they're all like, I worked incredibly freaking hard and I sacrificed things to get to where I am.
[00:34:41.080 --> 00:34:45.400] And then, you know, there are the two outliers who are like, no, you can do it in 10 hours a week.
[00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:47.400] And I'm like, that would be amazing.
[00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:48.440] I would love to do that.
[00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:51.480] But I haven't been able to crack that nut, right?
[00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:59.000] So what everyone else says when they get to the top, when they make it, is like, hey, I've made it and it's awesome, but it was really hard work.
[00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:00.360] So don't like, don't do it.
[00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:03.160] And I'm like, how am I supposed to get there then?
[00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:05.640] I am willing to do the hard work.
[00:35:05.640 --> 00:35:07.640] Like, that doesn't scare me.
[00:35:07.640 --> 00:35:15.680] What scares me, honestly, what scares me is not working hard and reaching the end and thinking, God, I wish I had worked harder.
[00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:15.840] Yeah.
[00:35:16.160 --> 00:35:23.760] Like reaching the end and thinking, not like, not, not, I wish I had given more of myself to a company.
[00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:25.920] Like, I don't freaking care about that.
[00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:32.800] What I, what I fear the most is reaching the end and thinking, I wish I had watched less TV.
[00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:34.720] I wish I'd gotten up a little bit earlier.
[00:35:34.720 --> 00:35:37.120] And I wish I had tried to make my dreams come true.
[00:35:37.120 --> 00:35:39.840] Like that's pretty terrifying.
[00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:41.280] Like that's pretty terrifying.
[00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:48.000] And so I have to balance that with reaching the end and thinking, I wish I'd spent more time with my kids.
[00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:50.640] That's even more terrifying, right?
[00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:59.120] The fear of unfulfilled dreams is not as great as the fear of not fulfilling my role as a father, right?
[00:35:59.120 --> 00:36:01.280] Like, I can't even, I can't handle that.
[00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:02.640] I can't handle that fear.
[00:36:02.640 --> 00:36:03.040] Yeah.
[00:36:03.040 --> 00:36:06.960] But both of those fears, both of those fears are pretty strong.
[00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:26.640] And when you look, when you, when you put yourself at the end and look back, you think, man, I do not care about watching the office for a 57th time when I could open my computer and try to make this thing that is inside me, like I could try to make this thing happen.
[00:36:26.640 --> 00:36:29.360] Like, I don't have hobbies, but you know what?
[00:36:29.680 --> 00:36:31.360] Painters like to paint, right?
[00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:32.480] What is a painter's hobby?
[00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:32.960] I don't know.
[00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:34.320] They probably paint.
[00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:36.000] Like, I'm a programmer.
[00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:36.960] I like to build things.
[00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.160] I like to make things.
[00:36:38.160 --> 00:36:41.200] My hobby is making things, is building things.
[00:36:41.200 --> 00:36:45.360] Like, you know, I'm sure the painter's parents are always like, why don't you get a real job?
[00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:46.080] You're just a painter.
[00:36:46.080 --> 00:36:48.240] And the painter's like, I have to paint.
[00:36:48.240 --> 00:36:55.120] Like, I have a job because I have duties as a father and as a husband, but why don't I have hobbies?
[00:36:55.120 --> 00:36:56.240] Because I have to paint.
[00:36:56.240 --> 00:36:58.480] Like, I have to do this thing.
[00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:00.520] And I am hoping that it will work.
[00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:07.240] And I am going on the record while I'm mid-air between two trapezes saying it is worth it for me right now.
[00:37:07.560 --> 00:37:17.880] And I am very, very aware that in five years or 10 years, I may be coming on, you know, Justin's Build Your SAS 2.0 and being like, My guy, it didn't work.
[00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:22.280] But I'm willing to say, like, I have counted the costs at this point.
[00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:25.560] And so far, I've weighed it and I've measured it.
[00:37:25.560 --> 00:37:27.720] And I think it's worth it.
[00:37:27.720 --> 00:37:29.720] I mean, this is why it's so individual.
[00:37:29.720 --> 00:37:31.880] Now, I don't really know what's going on with you.
[00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:42.360] I don't have an omnipotent view of how you're doing psychology, how you're really doing how your relationship with your wife and your kids really is.
[00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:45.640] It's sometimes, you know, none of us can really have that.
[00:37:45.640 --> 00:38:00.280] But based on what I know about your situation and based on what I'm hearing, if I was advising you, I would probably say you should probably go for it because you seem to have a lot of the margin where you need it.
[00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:08.680] So if you have a partner who is like, yeah, go for it, no hesitation.
[00:38:08.680 --> 00:38:10.280] Like, go, go, go.
[00:38:10.600 --> 00:38:12.520] I would say, well, that's a pretty good sign.
[00:38:12.520 --> 00:38:28.200] If you have a partner that is, this is what I've seen as I've talked to a lot of couples who have, you know, where one person's building the business, the other is not, is sometimes there's a slight hesitation on one of the partners, or they don't fully understand what this means.
[00:38:28.200 --> 00:38:29.560] I'm building a business.
[00:38:29.560 --> 00:38:32.360] Okay, what does that mean practically?
[00:38:32.680 --> 00:38:47.280] And problems start where there's not a full understanding of what this is actually going to entail, of what it actually is going to mean in terms of sacrifice, what it actually means in terms of a bet and all those things.
[00:38:44.840 --> 00:38:50.400] But it seems like in your situation, that's pretty solid.
[00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:58.160] I will say, as an interjection here, I think my wife is in the second category of, I guess, like.
[00:38:58.160 --> 00:39:02.080] She's in the category of like, I don't really know what that means, but that's great.
[00:39:02.080 --> 00:39:09.120] And the reason that it works is because of the things I've decided are okay to sacrifice and the things that are not okay to sacrifice.
[00:39:09.680 --> 00:39:12.080] So she's like, I don't really know.
[00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:14.720] Like, you're on your computer when you're working.
[00:39:14.720 --> 00:39:18.560] You're on your computer when you're side working and you're on your computer when you're playing.
[00:39:18.560 --> 00:39:21.200] So like, oh my God, do whatever you want.
[00:39:21.200 --> 00:39:23.040] Like, I don't really know.
[00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:31.600] If there were spouses listening to this right now, that is like 90% of spouses just went, yeah, Frank.
[00:39:32.240 --> 00:39:33.360] What's the deal?
[00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:35.280] Always on the computer.
[00:39:35.600 --> 00:39:36.400] Here's the thing.
[00:39:37.120 --> 00:39:44.160] I haven't asked her, like, I haven't asked her to make the same level of sacrifice that I'm making.
[00:39:44.160 --> 00:39:45.920] I have asked her to make sacrifices.
[00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:46.240] Yes.
[00:39:46.240 --> 00:39:50.480] Like, there are nights where I'm like, hey, I'm going to go back outside.
[00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:51.360] Is that okay?
[00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:53.360] And she's like, sure, that's fine.
[00:39:53.600 --> 00:40:02.000] But I'm not asking her to like do everything in the morning and do everything at dinner time when I would otherwise be available.
[00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:02.240] Right.
[00:40:02.240 --> 00:40:06.000] So like during the day, I am, I am full-time W-2.
[00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:11.280] But outside of those hours, like I should be available if I were not working on side stuff.
[00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:14.960] And so I am because I sacrifice other things.
[00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:22.640] So, like, yes, my spouse is incredibly supportive, and I'm under no illusions that I could do this if she were working outside of the home.
[00:40:22.640 --> 00:40:26.080] But it's not like she is team, she's team business.
[00:40:26.080 --> 00:40:28.320] She's just like, yeah, that's great.
[00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:31.320] You, I know that you need to fulfill this thing, and also you're here to help me.
[00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:32.440] So, like, do whatever you want.
[00:40:33.640 --> 00:40:39.480] And it's probably fine as long as those expectations are somewhat compatible.
[00:40:39.480 --> 00:40:43.800] I've been running Mega Maker since 2013.
[00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:51.400] And in the midst of that, there's been every once in a while, just what you have that many people go through, family stuff comes up.
[00:40:51.400 --> 00:41:06.200] And a recurring trend is that the one partner thought that everything was fine, that they were on the same page with their spouse, that everyone understood the risks and the sacrifice and all of that.
[00:41:06.200 --> 00:41:09.160] And then, but in reality, they didn't.
[00:41:09.160 --> 00:41:15.480] It can cause a lot of pain if there's not a lot of communication and a lot of understanding.
[00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:27.480] You can think somebody understands, but it's that some of the, it's often those little things that can that can grow bigger if you're not careful.
[00:41:28.040 --> 00:41:30.520] And, but I've also seen the opposite.
[00:41:30.520 --> 00:41:39.560] I've seen two people who are like, we're in this family together, and this is how I see my role, and this is how you see your role, and we're going to do this.
[00:41:39.560 --> 00:41:42.840] And we are just solid in that.
[00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:46.360] And so they're both can work.
[00:41:46.360 --> 00:41:51.240] The things to be careful about, if you're listening, is really getting on the same page.
[00:41:51.560 --> 00:42:21.760] I mean, one thing I would, I think is pretty good general advice is I would have definitely gone to therapy for myself personally and with my partner, way earlier in the process, and had a third party who is trained in asking the right questions to say, so why don't you each describe what you think is going to happen here and what's going to be involved, and let's really just kind of talk it out, you know?
[00:42:22.080 --> 00:42:23.120] I would echo that.
[00:42:23.120 --> 00:42:29.360] I mean, I've been going to counseling individually for, I don't know, five years, something like that.
[00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:40.800] My wife has been going for 15 years and we've been going, we've almost been married 10 years, and we've probably gone to counseling for on and off for five or six years.
[00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:43.280] Like, it's just, it's just helpful.
[00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:49.440] Like, it's just extremely helpful to be able to pay someone to listen to you and ask questions.
[00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:50.320] Like, yeah.
[00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:51.840] So, yeah, we, we do, we do that.
[00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:52.640] We do all kinds of stuff.
[00:42:52.640 --> 00:42:53.520] We have a name.
[00:42:53.520 --> 00:42:57.280] Like, it's again, it's really helpful to name things so that expectations are correct.
[00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:00.000] We have a name called Individual Pursuits Night.
[00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:04.320] And it's like, hey, are we going to, do you want to do individual pursuits tonight?
[00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:09.840] And sometimes she's like, yeah, I want to watch Gossip Girl, and I don't want you to be laughing at it because it's ridiculous.
[00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:10.960] And so it's like, great.
[00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:12.480] You have a thing you want to do.
[00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:13.760] I have a thing I want to do.
[00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:15.360] Let's do individual pursuits tonight.
[00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:15.840] Oh, I like that.
[00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:19.200] And sometimes it's like, no, we're not doing individual pursuits.
[00:43:19.200 --> 00:43:23.600] We're going to, like, we're going to watch a show together and then we're going to have, we're going to talk or we're going to do something.
[00:43:23.600 --> 00:43:26.080] And like, so it's helpful to name things again.
[00:43:26.080 --> 00:43:32.560] IPN versus CPN, Individual Pursuits Night or Couple Pursuits Night.
[00:43:33.200 --> 00:43:33.760] Yeah.
[00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:37.680] I'll float that acronym and see how it goes and report back to you.
[00:43:37.680 --> 00:43:38.480] You know what, baby?
[00:43:38.560 --> 00:43:39.680] IPN tonight?
[00:43:40.480 --> 00:43:41.440] IPN.
[00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:43.760] I mean, these things are helpful.
[00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:52.400] This is why I think podcasting is such a helpful medium because the nuance comes out and also just like good ideas come out.
[00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:54.840] Like this idea, like Individual Pursuits Night.
[00:43:54.840 --> 00:43:55.840] Maybe I'll use that.
[00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:56.880] That's great.
[00:43:56.880 --> 00:43:57.600] That's a great idea.
[00:43:58.560 --> 00:44:04.280] And there are certain, this is the other thing that I have this belief.
[00:44:04.520 --> 00:44:12.360] And again, I could be wrong, but it motivates a lot of my tweets, blog posts, podcasts, thinking.
[00:44:12.680 --> 00:44:19.240] I do believe that it's possible to give people a framework that makes their life better.
[00:44:19.240 --> 00:44:41.480] That there are certain practices, there are certain things you can put in place, like therapy, like you just said, that just objectively for almost everybody will improve the quality of their life, will eliminate unnecessary suffering, and will give you a stronger foundation to build a life.
[00:44:41.720 --> 00:44:52.200] That foundation, I think, is important in the same way that I believe the foundation of building a business is you have to have customer demand.
[00:44:52.200 --> 00:45:00.520] Without customer demand as the foundation, meaning there is a market or a category that you're in where there is momentum.
[00:45:00.520 --> 00:45:09.800] People are seeking and buying a product like yours or seeking and buying something that is equivalent to what you're offering.
[00:45:10.120 --> 00:45:14.520] Without that foundation, you can't build a business.
[00:45:14.520 --> 00:45:16.520] People have to want what you're making.
[00:45:16.520 --> 00:45:25.720] And in the same way, there are pillars of a good life and pillars of a strong foundation that really make a lot of this stuff.
[00:45:25.720 --> 00:45:31.320] I think maybe this is part of your confidence is that you've got some of these pillars in place.
[00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:34.440] So we talked about communication with your spouse.
[00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:36.120] We talked about therapy.
[00:45:36.120 --> 00:45:39.080] Are there some other pillars that you can think of?
[00:45:39.720 --> 00:45:49.360] One is you have a career that is also compatible with you building skills, an audience.
[00:45:49.680 --> 00:45:54.240] Like there's some cross-pollination, cross-Venn diagram.
[00:45:54.240 --> 00:45:57.120] Is there other things, or do you want to speak to that a little bit?
[00:45:57.120 --> 00:45:57.600] Sure.
[00:45:57.600 --> 00:45:58.000] Yeah.
[00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:16.560] I mean, I think my role at Planet Scale is an ideal situation for me because one, it is in the same neighborhood as the, you know, the product slash products that I'm building, right?
[00:46:16.560 --> 00:46:19.920] It's developer tooling, it's databases.
[00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:26.000] It fits within my universe of who is Aaron Francis online, right?
[00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:28.480] So that is not lost on me.
[00:46:28.720 --> 00:46:30.480] I mean, I'm nothing if not strategic.
[00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:36.000] That was not lost on me when it was like, hey, do you want to come, you know, create content for this database company?
[00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:37.040] I'm like, hell yeah, I do.
[00:46:37.040 --> 00:46:37.520] Yeah.
[00:46:37.520 --> 00:46:38.640] So that is compatible.
[00:46:38.640 --> 00:46:43.680] I think it also is compatible that I don't spend all day writing code, right?
[00:46:43.680 --> 00:46:55.200] So if I were to spend all day writing code and then log off and go sit on the couch and then log on and write some more code, I don't know how much that would affect me.
[00:46:55.200 --> 00:46:58.560] I like to think that like I could just code forever.
[00:46:59.520 --> 00:47:01.600] I think that would be a little bit harder.
[00:47:01.600 --> 00:47:10.800] And so what I do most of the day, like daytime work, is like researching and writing and making videos about databases.
[00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:16.720] And so then when it comes to be nighttime work or, you know, early morning work, it's like, ah, finally, I get to write some code.
[00:47:16.720 --> 00:47:24.720] And so there's a little bit of like variation between how I spend my brain juice all day and how I spend it at night or in the early morning.
[00:47:24.720 --> 00:47:27.040] And that's really, really helpful, right?
[00:47:27.040 --> 00:47:32.920] Yeah, that strategy is being strategic, I think, is also an underrated.
[00:47:32.920 --> 00:47:35.480] Being strategic is an underrated strategy.
[00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:36.520] Yes.
[00:47:36.520 --> 00:47:37.000] Yes.
[00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:37.800] I think so.
[00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:45.400] I think like effort in every direction, uncoordinated, is an entire, is entirely wasteful.
[00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:45.800] Yeah.
[00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:49.560] Like we talked about, it's not maximum effort in every vector.
[00:47:49.560 --> 00:47:51.000] Like I can't do that.
[00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:52.840] I don't think anyone can.
[00:47:52.840 --> 00:48:02.200] It's maximum effort in vectors that are generally pretty aligned and strategically the things that I think will take me to where I want to be going.
[00:48:02.200 --> 00:48:02.680] Right.
[00:48:02.680 --> 00:48:12.440] So I'm not going to put maximum effort into something where when I arrive at the end, it's like, well, crap, that's not actually where I wanted to go.
[00:48:12.440 --> 00:48:29.160] And so it's very important to think like, all right, if these things are true, if my family needs health insurance, if I need to make a salary, if I want to make my dreams come true, I want to spend time with my spouse and kids, all right, let's write all these things down.
[00:48:29.160 --> 00:48:30.600] What do I do with all of those?
[00:48:30.600 --> 00:48:43.480] How can I point as many of those vectors in the same like general direction as possible instead of like pointing them in opposite directions, which seems really, really hard to do.
[00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:45.720] And I don't know that I would be able to pull that off.
[00:48:45.720 --> 00:48:45.960] Yeah.
[00:48:45.960 --> 00:48:54.760] And another part of strategy is an honest assessment of where you actually are at right now.
[00:48:55.000 --> 00:49:07.960] Meaning, if you are taking care of a family member who has health problems, that is a real thing in your life that you've got to account for.
[00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:11.800] Meaning, I only have limited resources here.
[00:49:12.120 --> 00:49:18.080] And if this is a real part of my life, then I'm going to have to consider that.
[00:49:18.080 --> 00:49:26.480] If you are two months into being parents, and if things are going great and you're like, this is great.
[00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:28.000] These kids are sleeping.
[00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:29.840] These kids are, you know, we get this.
[00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:31.600] We're actually really good at this.
[00:49:31.920 --> 00:49:33.520] It doesn't stress us out.
[00:49:33.520 --> 00:49:34.400] Then that's a good sign.
[00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:36.960] That's an honest assessment of where you're at.
[00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:42.880] If you're two months into parenting and you're like, this is way harder than I thought it would be.
[00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:45.120] The wheels are falling off the bus.
[00:49:45.120 --> 00:49:48.800] This is more stressful than I ever imagined.
[00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:52.960] That's not a great situation to start a business in.
[00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:59.840] You know, you got to be honest with yourself and be like, what's really happening right now?
[00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:06.000] This is why in strategy, they always talk about strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats.
[00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:14.480] Well, your strengths and weaknesses are like, what is honestly going on here at home that we need to consider here?
[00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:28.160] And if there are some major situational things in your life that, and maybe it's just like, we've got too many priorities.
[00:50:28.160 --> 00:50:40.480] We can't pay off the, we can't pay off all of our student loan debt and do the, all at the same time, and take care of mom and, you know, deal with these health issues.
[00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:44.240] And you've got to, you've got to have an honest assessment of all that.
[00:50:44.240 --> 00:50:49.920] So strategically, you can go, okay, now let's think about how we're gonna, you know, do this.
[00:50:50.160 --> 00:50:56.720] Yeah, I think what, what, no, I think what you're talking about there is it's the sacrifice equation running the other direction.
[00:50:56.720 --> 00:51:13.560] So, like, if you're taking care of a sick, if you're taking care of a sick spouse or a parent or your aging parents or whatever, you have to decide, like, okay, I'm gonna sacrifice working on my business because I'm gonna take care of my aging parents or my sick spouse or whatever.
[00:51:13.560 --> 00:51:17.800] And again, you just have to count, like, you have, you have to count the cost.
[00:51:17.800 --> 00:51:28.120] Like, it is more important to me to take care of my aging parents early in the morning and late at night than it is to work on my business early in the morning or late at night, right?
[00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:39.640] So, I think with everything, like with everything that you're doing, so like we're both saying the same thing from a different direction, like you have to count the cost.
[00:51:39.640 --> 00:51:50.280] And I think what I'm saying, the counter-counter narrative, is there are some things that you should sacrifice for almost any reason.
[00:51:50.280 --> 00:51:53.880] And that can be watching two or three hours of TV at night.
[00:51:53.880 --> 00:52:04.120] And listen, if the alternative, like that is if there is something on the other side of the equation for which you want to sacrifice, right?
[00:52:04.120 --> 00:52:16.120] So if you're looking at like, if you're looking at your, your time and you're saying, I, I have three hours every night where I don't really do anything, but there's this dream that I want.
[00:52:16.120 --> 00:52:18.680] And it's like, okay, that's easy to me.
[00:52:18.680 --> 00:52:20.680] That is a no-brainer to me.
[00:52:20.680 --> 00:52:33.160] And I see, I think I see, like, I see too many people saying that like they can't, like, they can't change their life because like they don't want to grind.
[00:52:33.160 --> 00:52:40.200] And I'm like, I am going to change my life, whatever it takes, like, no matter what it takes.
[00:52:40.200 --> 00:52:54.240] But the equation, the equation is flipped if it's like, I'm burned out and I'm like, I'm hanging on to the end of a knotted rope and it's like, I'm about to fall off unless I hang on with everything I have.
[00:52:54.240 --> 00:53:14.000] In which case, I would say, like, okay, if TV, whatever it is, if, you know, taking long walks at night, if that is more valuable, like you have to decide you're going to do that instead of working on your business, you're going to sacrifice working on your business because you're barely making it.
[00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:18.960] And that is a, like, that is a valid, those are valid numbers to run.
[00:53:18.960 --> 00:53:27.440] And so I think what we're both saying is like, you got to, you got to introspect and decide what are the numbers for you.
[00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:31.200] For me, I have told you 10 times what the numbers are.
[00:53:31.200 --> 00:53:32.960] I don't know what they are for anybody else.
[00:53:32.960 --> 00:53:36.640] And importantly, the numbers are going to change for me at some point.
[00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:40.160] I'm in this era right now.
[00:53:40.160 --> 00:53:41.920] This era is not going to last forever.
[00:53:41.920 --> 00:53:43.520] I'm going to run out of energy.
[00:53:43.520 --> 00:53:45.360] The kids are going to get older.
[00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:46.800] We're going to have more kids.
[00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:50.560] Something will change and I will have to sit down and redo the math.
[00:53:50.560 --> 00:53:52.960] But many people aren't doing the math.
[00:53:52.960 --> 00:53:54.800] They're just like, man, I wish my life would change.
[00:53:54.800 --> 00:53:55.920] Well, that's too bad.
[00:53:55.920 --> 00:53:57.120] I'm like, no.
[00:53:57.520 --> 00:53:58.080] This is it.
[00:53:58.080 --> 00:53:59.600] This is all you got, man.
[00:53:59.920 --> 00:54:10.720] There is another perspective on that, which is to clearly outline what you want and then to ask yourself, what is the best way to get there?
[00:54:11.040 --> 00:54:18.000] And I have had people back when I was doing more coaching, they would show up and I would say, what do you want?
[00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:23.120] And they would say, I want to become an individual influencer like you, Justin.
[00:54:23.120 --> 00:54:24.400] I want to have an audience.
[00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:26.640] I want to build a product and launch it.
[00:54:26.640 --> 00:54:29.120] And, you know, I want to build this up.
[00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:32.200] And I would say, okay, let's get started then.
[00:54:32.200 --> 00:54:33.960] And, but I say, but that's not an actual reason.
[00:54:33.960 --> 00:54:35.400] What's the actual reason why?
[00:54:35.400 --> 00:54:36.280] What do you?
[00:54:36.280 --> 00:54:41.800] Well, right now I'm making $80,000 a year and my family could really use $130,000.
[00:54:42.120 --> 00:54:42.600] Okay.
[00:54:43.240 --> 00:54:53.960] Once we actually got into it, it just became clear that for this person, the best path to getting to that dream is just to find a better job.
[00:54:54.280 --> 00:55:17.240] It's something that doesn't get, I think, mentioned enough, which is if you're in a shitty job, if you're not making enough money, and you don't have an audience, and you haven't started any of this, it is likely that the best use of your time and energy and focus is just getting a promotion or finding a better job.
[00:55:17.560 --> 00:55:23.080] Those things may give you, nothing's ever going to give you 100% of what you want.
[00:55:23.080 --> 00:55:25.800] You might get 60, 70, 80.
[00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:28.440] Maybe if you're lucky, you get 90% of what you want.
[00:55:28.440 --> 00:55:36.520] So sure, you go to a job, you have one of the downsides to getting a job is you have to ask permission to go on vacation, which I always hated.
[00:55:37.240 --> 00:55:46.440] But it may be in the math, that personal math, it may be a better decision for a listener to be thinking, you know what?
[00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:55.080] Actually, if this is what I want, I'm actually avoiding something I'm scared of, which is going out and finding another job.
[00:55:55.080 --> 00:56:04.600] And I'm replacing it with something that is actually way scarier, way harder, has a lower chance of success.
[00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:07.480] I'm going to try to do that instead.
[00:56:07.480 --> 00:56:21.280] And this is why the stair-step approach is such a nice idea: like, you can stair-step your way up to a nice remote job like Aaron has, and then that's compatible with some of your long-term dreams.
[00:56:21.520 --> 00:56:24.000] I mean, that's a best, those are the best employers.
[00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:25.520] Hey, Aaron, what is your long-term dream?
[00:56:25.760 --> 00:56:27.200] Oh, I want to do this, this, this.
[00:56:27.200 --> 00:56:31.280] Okay, well, we're compatible here on a long-term basis.
[00:56:31.600 --> 00:56:34.080] But I don't want people to think that that's not an option.
[00:56:34.080 --> 00:56:40.960] My guess is that for most folks, it is better for them to find a better job than to try to start a company.
[00:56:40.960 --> 00:56:51.120] Just because I've known tons of people who are amazing in all sorts of ways, have tons of skills, tons of, and they don't make it.
[00:56:51.120 --> 00:56:56.640] Making it in business is, it's just, there's no sure thing.
[00:56:56.640 --> 00:57:08.320] And so, if you're playing, if you're doing that math, I would consider saying, well, the first step, if I'm in a shitty job, is just to find a better job that gives me more freedom, more autonomy, more money, et cetera.
[00:57:08.320 --> 00:57:17.280] Yeah, if we were like, I think the reason I'm in this situation partially is because I'm extremely risk averse, right?
[00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:19.920] Like, I'm not going to quit my job.
[00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:26.240] I'm not going to, like, I'm not going to just be like, hey, family, I'm going to do my own thing.
[00:57:26.240 --> 00:57:31.600] Like, I hope that I have enough money next month so that you kids can go to school.
[00:57:31.600 --> 00:57:41.600] Like, I think there is definitely a way to work your way up to a position where you can then start to sacrifice other things.
[00:57:41.600 --> 00:57:43.680] But there, again, they're non-negotiables.
[00:57:43.680 --> 00:57:50.800] Like, I would love to be able to work on a business full-time, but that's just not, that's just not in the cards for me.
[00:57:50.800 --> 00:58:01.640] Listen, if we were going negative every month, like, if planet scale wasn't enough for us to live, the talk of like a side business would probably not be on the table for me.
[00:58:01.960 --> 00:58:08.280] It would be, Aaron, you got to cut your expenses or you got to get a better job because this is not working.
[00:58:08.600 --> 00:58:17.240] And so, yeah, I definitely don't want to paint the picture of like, I'm, you know, sacrificing everything and I'm this, like, I'm throwing the whole team on my back.
[00:58:17.240 --> 00:58:21.960] Like, no, we've got, like, we, we're not going negative every month.
[00:58:21.960 --> 00:58:26.280] And the things that I'm sacrificing don't really count to anybody except me.
[00:58:26.280 --> 00:58:38.600] And so that's where, that's where I'm like, yeah, if your job sucks and you're going negative every month and or you're going in physically to somewhere that is just like beating you down, get out of there.
[00:58:38.600 --> 00:58:41.080] Like, that is absolutely the best first step.
[00:58:41.080 --> 00:58:49.480] Yeah, this is the challenge is so many people do get into starting their own business because they things are really not going well.
[00:58:49.800 --> 00:58:52.600] And they're like, I got, I got to fix this.
[00:58:52.600 --> 00:58:54.440] And sometimes that can work out.
[00:58:54.440 --> 00:58:57.800] But the way I've said it before is it's good to be hungry.
[00:58:57.800 --> 00:58:59.560] It's not good to be desperate.
[00:58:59.560 --> 00:59:11.400] In the hungry desperation scale, desperation is not a good time to be building anything because you're going to be in this vicious cycle.
[00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:17.400] And it's actually great having you on the call today because it's just clear.
[00:59:17.400 --> 00:59:18.760] You seem calm.
[00:59:18.760 --> 00:59:37.000] You seem like you're hungry, but there is a foundation of calm that if I was going to review a lot of these cases I'm thinking about from my inbox and from people I've coached and things, the times where it didn't work out was they were, they were in that desperation mode.
[00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:39.080] They were too close to the metal.
[00:59:39.080 --> 00:59:41.480] They were grinding gears.
[00:59:41.480 --> 00:59:47.200] And when you're in that kind of spiral, nothing is going well.
[00:59:47.200 --> 00:59:48.640] All you're doing is putting out fires.
[00:59:48.640 --> 00:59:50.000] You're putting out fires with your spouse.
[00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:52.000] You're putting out fires with the day job.
[00:59:52.560 --> 00:59:55.520] So you got to simplify as much as you can.
[00:59:55.520 --> 01:00:00.880] And if you're in a situation like that, probably the best way for you to improve your life is to try to get a better job.
[01:00:01.040 --> 01:00:07.200] Nice thing about getting a better job is a lot of the principles that apply to business also apply to that.
[01:00:07.200 --> 01:00:10.560] You're trying to give people something they want.
[01:00:10.560 --> 01:00:12.880] You're trying to solve the boss's problems.
[01:00:12.880 --> 01:00:18.960] You're trying to make yourself the most attractive candidate.
[01:00:19.760 --> 01:00:21.680] And these are all things that apply in business.
[01:00:21.680 --> 01:00:29.120] Business is about when you have a product, you're trying to make your product the most attractive candidate for anybody who's looking for a product like that.
[01:00:29.120 --> 01:00:32.560] And you can take some of those principles away with you.
[01:00:32.720 --> 01:00:34.240] We've got an hour.
[01:00:34.240 --> 01:00:36.240] Is there anything else you'd like to say?
[01:00:37.120 --> 01:00:39.680] Thanks for letting me come on and take the other side.
[01:00:39.680 --> 01:00:41.520] I feel like this was really valuable.
[01:00:43.040 --> 01:00:44.800] Hopefully for other people as well.
[01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:53.840] I think I would synthesize the whole thing as like, you know, I've told Colleen this, my business partner, a number of times, like the only thing you got to figure out is what do you want?
[01:00:53.840 --> 01:00:57.520] And unfortunately, that's the hardest thing in the world to figure out.
[01:00:57.520 --> 01:00:59.840] Like, what do you want?
[01:00:59.840 --> 01:01:07.200] And I think for me in the past couple of years, I think I've started to figure out what I want.
[01:01:07.200 --> 01:01:13.840] And I am not, like we just talked about, I'm not extremely comfortable with risk.
[01:01:13.840 --> 01:01:30.760] I'm calm, but boy, am I hungry, not because we're running out of money, but because there's some kind of like thing inside of me that has to prove to like my childhood self and the way that I came up and part of me, like, I am going to make it.
[01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:40.600] And like that, like coupled with I have a job and I can provide for my family so far seems like infinite energy.
[01:01:40.600 --> 01:01:44.680] And I know that it will run out at some point, but I'm not willing.
[01:01:44.680 --> 01:01:51.720] I'm not willing to watch these dreams die because I'm too sleepy or I'm watching TV at night or something.
[01:01:51.720 --> 01:02:03.800] And so like, you got to run the sacrifice equation on your own side and figure out what are you willing to sacrifice and for what are you sacrificing and figure out like, I don't know, man, which one's stronger?
[01:02:03.800 --> 01:02:05.560] And then you just run it from there.
[01:02:05.560 --> 01:02:07.160] Don't, don't be afraid to commit.
[01:02:07.160 --> 01:02:09.320] Do not be afraid to commit to it.
[01:02:09.320 --> 01:02:09.800] Yes.
[01:02:09.800 --> 01:02:10.360] Yeah.
[01:02:10.680 --> 01:02:13.000] I mean, we could keep going, I'm sure.
[01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:14.840] But I'm cheering for you.
[01:02:15.880 --> 01:02:16.520] Thanks.
[01:02:16.520 --> 01:02:27.880] That hunger you have and that idea of like, I got this dream and I just got to go after it is so, I identify with that so much.
[01:02:27.880 --> 01:02:35.240] And then having that line of, I have this dream, but I'm not willing to cross this line is also important.
[01:02:35.560 --> 01:02:37.800] And we heard, I heard that from you too.
[01:02:37.800 --> 01:02:39.240] So thanks so much, man.
[01:02:39.240 --> 01:02:39.880] This was great.
[01:02:40.200 --> 01:02:42.920] I'm sure folks will have lots of feedback on this.
[01:02:43.320 --> 01:02:47.480] What's a good way for people to reach out to you or say, hey, I'm listening right now?
[01:02:47.480 --> 01:02:47.880] Yeah.
[01:02:48.120 --> 01:02:53.240] I'm on Twitter basically all the time, even when I shouldn't be at Aaron D.
[01:02:53.320 --> 01:02:55.800] Francis, Aaron with two A's, Aaron D.
[01:02:55.800 --> 01:

Prompt 2: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 3: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 4: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Prompt 5: Context Setup

You are an expert data extractor tasked with analyzing a podcast transcript. 
I will provide you with part 2 of 2 from a podcast transcript. 
I will then ask you to extract different types of information from this content in subsequent messages. Please confirm you have received and understood the transcript content.

Transcript section:
to make it.
[01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:40.600] And like that, like coupled with I have a job and I can provide for my family so far seems like infinite energy.
[01:01:40.600 --> 01:01:44.680] And I know that it will run out at some point, but I'm not willing.
[01:01:44.680 --> 01:01:51.720] I'm not willing to watch these dreams die because I'm too sleepy or I'm watching TV at night or something.
[01:01:51.720 --> 01:02:03.800] And so like, you got to run the sacrifice equation on your own side and figure out what are you willing to sacrifice and for what are you sacrificing and figure out like, I don't know, man, which one's stronger?
[01:02:03.800 --> 01:02:05.560] And then you just run it from there.
[01:02:05.560 --> 01:02:07.160] Don't, don't be afraid to commit.
[01:02:07.160 --> 01:02:09.320] Do not be afraid to commit to it.
[01:02:09.320 --> 01:02:09.800] Yes.
[01:02:09.800 --> 01:02:10.360] Yeah.
[01:02:10.680 --> 01:02:13.000] I mean, we could keep going, I'm sure.
[01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:14.840] But I'm cheering for you.
[01:02:15.880 --> 01:02:16.520] Thanks.
[01:02:16.520 --> 01:02:27.880] That hunger you have and that idea of like, I got this dream and I just got to go after it is so, I identify with that so much.
[01:02:27.880 --> 01:02:35.240] And then having that line of, I have this dream, but I'm not willing to cross this line is also important.
[01:02:35.560 --> 01:02:37.800] And we heard, I heard that from you too.
[01:02:37.800 --> 01:02:39.240] So thanks so much, man.
[01:02:39.240 --> 01:02:39.880] This was great.
[01:02:40.200 --> 01:02:42.920] I'm sure folks will have lots of feedback on this.
[01:02:43.320 --> 01:02:47.480] What's a good way for people to reach out to you or say, hey, I'm listening right now?
[01:02:47.480 --> 01:02:47.880] Yeah.
[01:02:48.120 --> 01:02:53.240] I'm on Twitter basically all the time, even when I shouldn't be at Aaron D.
[01:02:53.320 --> 01:02:55.800] Francis, Aaron with two A's, Aaron D.
[01:02:55.800 --> 01:02:56.760] Francis.
[01:02:57.560 --> 01:03:01.480] The course that we talked about is at planetscale.com slash courses.
[01:03:01.480 --> 01:03:09.080] And then the product that my partner and I are working on is we are in the middle of a pivot because we haven't found product market fit.
[01:03:09.080 --> 01:03:11.160] So that's at helloquery.com.
[01:03:11.160 --> 01:03:16.480] And we're building a flexible way for non-technical users to get access to their database.
[01:03:16.480 --> 01:03:17.920] So hello query.
[01:03:17.920 --> 01:03:18.880] Hello query.
[01:03:14.760 --> 01:03:21.280] This is as of like yesterday, totally unannounced.
[01:03:21.440 --> 01:03:23.360] So breaking news here first.
[01:03:23.360 --> 01:03:24.880] So I say query.
[01:03:24.880 --> 01:03:25.520] What did you say?
[01:03:25.520 --> 01:03:26.080] Query.
[01:03:26.080 --> 01:03:26.640] Query.
[01:03:26.640 --> 01:03:27.280] Query.
[01:03:27.280 --> 01:03:28.480] I say query.
[01:03:28.800 --> 01:03:29.920] Interesting.
[01:03:30.880 --> 01:03:32.240] We'll have to talk about this offline.
[01:03:32.240 --> 01:03:33.600] That's the first time I've heard that one.
[01:03:33.600 --> 01:03:33.840] Yeah.
[01:03:33.840 --> 01:03:38.160] So helloquery.com, I guess, if you're from Canada.
[01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:41.280] Don't take mine as Canadian pronunciation.
[01:03:41.280 --> 01:03:45.120] That's a recurring bit on the show as I pronounce things weird.
[01:03:45.120 --> 01:03:50.640] Would also love to hear, if you're listening, I would love to hear from spouses.
[01:03:50.640 --> 01:03:57.200] And if you are a spouse of someone building a business, yeah, it'd be great to have you reach out.
[01:03:57.200 --> 01:04:00.160] You can email me, justin at transistor.fm.
[01:04:00.160 --> 01:04:03.600] I'm on Twitter, the letter M, the letter I, Justin.
[01:04:03.600 --> 01:04:05.120] We have a live chat on Transistor.
[01:04:05.120 --> 01:04:07.600] You can even put comments in there.
[01:04:07.600 --> 01:04:21.840] But I'm hoping this will be the beginning of an expanded, nuanced discussion about how to do all of this while you're being a parent and trying to live a good life.
[01:04:22.480 --> 01:04:23.440] Family.
[01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:24.720] So thanks again, everybody.
[01:04:24.720 --> 01:04:27.120] And yeah, I hope to hear from you soon.
[01:04:45.280 --> 01:04:49.200] Podcast hosting is provided by transistor.fm.
[01:04:49.200 --> 01:05:00.000] They host our mp3 files, generate our RSS feed, provide us with analytics, and help us distribute the show to Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more.
[01:05:00.440 --> 01:05:11.640] If you want to start your own podcast or you want to switch to Transistor, go to transistor.fm slash Justin and get 15% off your first year.

Prompt 6: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 7: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 8: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Full Transcript

[00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:20.160] This podcast is hosted by transistor.fm welcome to build your sass.
[00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:25.120] This is the behind the scenes story of building a web app in 2023.
[00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:32.480] I'm Justin, and today I have an internet friend joining me, Aaron Francis.
[00:00:32.800 --> 00:00:34.000] How's it going, Aaron?
[00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:34.400] Good.
[00:00:35.040 --> 00:00:36.240] It's exciting to be here.
[00:00:36.240 --> 00:00:38.800] I'm a long time listener, first time caller.
[00:00:40.400 --> 00:00:42.880] This is the first time we've talked.
[00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:48.800] And it's very strange because I listen to you all the time.
[00:00:48.800 --> 00:00:50.960] You have had a few podcasts.
[00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:55.280] You have the Hammerstone podcast, right?
[00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:57.280] Framework Friends.
[00:00:57.280 --> 00:00:58.800] Am I missing anything?
[00:00:59.360 --> 00:01:02.720] A long time ago, I had one called The Music Makers.
[00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:08.960] That was like six or seven years ago, but it is now defunct.
[00:01:08.960 --> 00:01:10.960] So that was my first podcast.
[00:01:10.960 --> 00:01:11.840] All right.
[00:01:12.160 --> 00:01:17.920] Well, I listen to your voice all the time, and I also interact with you all the time on Twitter.
[00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:34.800] And we are going to discuss a pretty hot topic this time, which is can you bootstrap a new startup and do that while you have young kids at the same time?
[00:01:34.800 --> 00:01:42.560] So can you bootstrap a family and bootstrap a new company at the same time?
[00:01:42.880 --> 00:02:03.480] And I had a Twitter thread on this, and then I also wrote kind of a blog post that encompassed some of my thoughts, which is me really reflecting on trying to build multiple things when my kids were young, and now wondering if that was the best idea.
[00:02:03.480 --> 00:02:17.320] If I should have just maybe waited a bit longer to do both, just because as you know, starting a family is a lot of energy and requires a lot of focus and a lot of time.
[00:02:17.320 --> 00:02:22.120] And birthing a company also is a lot of energy and a lot of time.
[00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:22.920] Yeah.
[00:02:22.920 --> 00:02:35.320] So maybe to start out, for folks who don't know you, explain kind of what you're doing right now professionally and then share as much about your family situation as you'd like.
[00:02:35.320 --> 00:02:37.000] So yeah, what are you doing professionally?
[00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:40.360] And then what's the parenting situation right now?
[00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:45.240] Professionally, I have a full-time job at a company called Planet Scale.
[00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:48.920] We're a MySQL platform company.
[00:02:48.920 --> 00:02:58.120] So I work full-time, full-time job as a developer educator, which means I basically, you know, make a bunch of videos, write a bunch of articles.
[00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:01.960] I did recently, I did a very big course on MySQL.
[00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:04.520] And so that is amazing, by the way.
[00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:09.320] As a sidestep, I think folks should go check that out.
[00:03:09.320 --> 00:03:10.440] How do they search for that?
[00:03:10.440 --> 00:03:14.200] It's just like, is it MySQL Planet Scale?
[00:03:14.200 --> 00:03:14.760] Will that find?
[00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:16.440] Yeah, that way that would be probably do it.
[00:03:16.440 --> 00:03:20.840] MySQL for developers, Planet Scale would probably, would probably do it better.
[00:03:20.840 --> 00:03:23.960] PlanetScale.com/slash courses would get you there as well.
[00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:24.680] It's awesome.
[00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:26.040] People should check it out.
[00:03:26.040 --> 00:03:26.440] Thanks.
[00:03:26.440 --> 00:03:34.120] Yeah, it was a lot of fun and a huge amount of work, which we can talk about as part of what we're talking about here.
[00:03:34.600 --> 00:03:42.520] Because I, you know, work at this company, which I love, and I love, you know, the stuff that I do there, which I think is important.
[00:03:42.920 --> 00:03:47.120] But I'm also trying to bootstrap a company on the side.
[00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:54.800] And so I have a partner named Colleen, and she and I have been working on this for like two years now.
[00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:59.280] And it is not like, it is not successful yet.
[00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:02.960] It is not making us enough money to where I can quit.
[00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:08.800] And so I'm kind of like, I'm kind of at the very beginning of this, or, you know, hopefully in the middle.
[00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:16.880] And so when I was seeing you talk about this on Twitter, I was like, I will like, we can do an old-fashioned, like an old-fashioned debate.
[00:04:16.880 --> 00:04:18.240] And like, I'll take the other side.
[00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:26.880] Like, I have, I think I have some things to say on the other side because I also am dad to two-year-olds.
[00:04:26.880 --> 00:04:31.680] So I have, I have boygirl twins, and they turned two on Saturday.
[00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:33.280] So just like a few days ago.
[00:04:33.280 --> 00:04:34.480] So yeah.
[00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:37.600] So I've very much in it.
[00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:38.400] Yes.
[00:04:38.400 --> 00:04:44.400] You were in it like you were, you were already on level two right before, right when you started.
[00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:45.360] Yeah, exactly.
[00:04:45.520 --> 00:04:48.560] Or you're playing level one, but with two controllers at the same time.
[00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:49.520] What metaphor is that?
[00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:51.760] Whichever one of those is harder.
[00:04:51.760 --> 00:04:52.560] Yeah.
[00:04:53.840 --> 00:04:54.320] Yeah.
[00:04:54.880 --> 00:04:57.840] I can play one character at a time, but I have to play two.
[00:04:58.160 --> 00:04:58.480] Yeah.
[00:04:58.480 --> 00:04:58.960] Yeah.
[00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:03.200] On that note, the good thing for us is we never had just one child.
[00:05:03.200 --> 00:05:04.560] So we're like, I don't know.
[00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:06.880] I guess this is as hard as it is.
[00:05:06.880 --> 00:05:12.160] Like, I decided I don't have anything to look back fondly on and be like, oh, when there was just one of them.
[00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:13.920] It's like, well, they're both here now.
[00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:16.560] So cool.
[00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:20.000] Well, I think that sets things up perfectly.
[00:05:20.400 --> 00:05:33.160] I was just looking for this tweet that I saw you had, which was something to the effect of you feel like you're in this stage of life where you want to be kind of going after it.
[00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:33.560] Yeah.
[00:05:29.840 --> 00:05:36.200] I call it my maximum effort era.
[00:05:36.760 --> 00:05:37.960] Maximum effort era.
[00:05:37.960 --> 00:05:39.560] So maybe explain that for me.
[00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:43.880] What does it mean to be in maximum effort era?
[00:05:43.880 --> 00:05:44.200] Yeah.
[00:05:44.200 --> 00:05:47.320] So this is something I've been thinking about a lot.
[00:05:47.320 --> 00:05:56.600] I think primarily since the twins have come and, you know, Colleen and I are trying to bootstrap this company and I'm trying to, my wife is a stay-at-home mom.
[00:05:56.600 --> 00:05:59.560] She works harder than I do, but she works at home, right?
[00:05:59.560 --> 00:06:02.600] And so I'm the sole breadwinner.
[00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:07.560] And so like, I feel a lot of that, I feel a lot of that pressure.
[00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:11.160] I feel a lot of that weight of responsibility.
[00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:24.520] And so I think I at some point just decided that I was okay saying that for this period of time, and I don't know what, I don't know when this period of time ends.
[00:06:24.520 --> 00:06:31.800] And I think that's an important thing to note, but for this period of time, this is going to be a lot of work.
[00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:36.920] And I'm going to put in the maximum amount of effort that I can.
[00:06:36.920 --> 00:06:47.400] And the latter half of that tweet was, at some point in my life, I would like to enter into the semi-retired leisurely builder era of my life.
[00:06:47.400 --> 00:06:54.440] I would like to do the Daniel Vasalo where I just kind of like hang out and do a small bet and make, you know, $200,000.
[00:06:54.440 --> 00:06:56.520] But like, I'm not there yet.
[00:06:56.520 --> 00:06:58.680] And I think it was helpful for me.
[00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:05.480] It was helpful for me to put a name on it to say, like, I see things that I want.
[00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:10.440] I see, you know, Adam Wathan and Ben Ornstein, like running these companies.
[00:07:10.440 --> 00:07:15.760] And now you and John running these companies where you do have margin and you do have freedom.
[00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:19.920] I see that and I want that, but I'm not there.
[00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:28.960] And to put a name on what where I am, which is my maximum effort era, has helped me mentally be like, okay, this is the thing that you're doing right now.
[00:07:28.960 --> 00:07:35.280] And this is importantly an era that won't last forever because I'll tell you, it can't last forever.
[00:07:35.520 --> 00:07:38.960] And that has helped me mentally get to a good spot with that.
[00:07:38.960 --> 00:07:39.840] Yeah, yeah.
[00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:55.840] I think, I mean, a lot of people listening to this can identify with that thought of, I mean, it's what drives a lot of people to want to start their own company is this idea of I want something better for my family.
[00:07:55.840 --> 00:08:09.200] This has actually been in the past when I've had not disagreements, but sometimes there's folks in the bootstrapper community, you know, we have things where we don't understand each other.
[00:08:09.200 --> 00:08:21.760] And when we got on a call, what ended up being true was that this particular thing was, I think someone had said, you know, the money wasn't a big motivator for them.
[00:08:22.080 --> 00:08:26.160] And I was like, the money's always been a big motivator for me.
[00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:36.400] And, you know, money is ultimately, the line would be: money is ultimately not a, you know, it's not a worthwhile goal.
[00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:40.160] And I said, the money has always been a worthwhile goal for me.
[00:08:40.160 --> 00:08:46.800] And I think what we ended up realizing was this person wasn't married and didn't have kids.
[00:08:46.800 --> 00:08:55.680] And when you're on the other side of that, and you're, all you're really thinking about is like, how can I provide a good life for my family?
[00:08:55.680 --> 00:09:08.280] And a lot of that has to do with A, money, and then B, kind of the flexibility and freedom and autonomy that can come from owning your own business.
[00:09:08.920 --> 00:09:12.040] So, and does that kind of describe your goal?
[00:09:12.040 --> 00:09:23.480] Like, if you're thinking that the end result for the maximum effort era, you've said, you know, I see these people running companies and that's what I want.
[00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:26.440] It's, it's all of these things in a row.
[00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:31.880] Yeah, I think that, I think that does pretty accurately describe the end goal.
[00:09:31.880 --> 00:09:37.320] I'm, I'm, I think with you on that side of that conversation, like the money is a motivator.
[00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:38.840] Yes, absolutely.
[00:09:38.840 --> 00:09:40.680] The money, the money is a motivator.
[00:09:40.680 --> 00:09:42.440] Like, kids need clothes.
[00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:44.600] They need, you know, rooms to live in.
[00:09:44.600 --> 00:09:51.240] Like, yeah, yeah, they're going to share a room because they're twins, but hello, like, we need space in a house and houses cost money.
[00:09:52.040 --> 00:09:54.040] So, yeah, the money's a motivator.
[00:09:54.040 --> 00:10:01.000] I think there's a, and you know, unfortunately, in the U.S., healthcare is a motivator, which sucks, and healthcare is expensive.
[00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:05.240] And so, all of that, like, all of that wrapped up is motivation.
[00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:09.080] There is also, so like, that's the very, that's the very practical.
[00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:12.520] What is my duty as a husband and a father?
[00:10:12.520 --> 00:10:16.520] And the, you know, in our case, the sole breadwinner of the household.
[00:10:16.520 --> 00:10:17.720] Like, what are my duties?
[00:10:17.720 --> 00:10:19.960] And I take that extremely seriously.
[00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:24.200] I think there is also like, what are, what are my hopes and dreams, man?
[00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:26.360] Like, what are, what is my duty to myself?
[00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:31.400] And what are the things that like I want to do with my life?
[00:10:31.400 --> 00:10:35.560] And like, those things, those things super matter.
[00:10:35.560 --> 00:10:44.040] And there are things that I am willing to sacrifice to try to make, we'll say for shorthand, to try to make my dreams come true.
[00:10:44.040 --> 00:10:46.560] And there are things I'm not willing to sacrifice.
[00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:50.880] And I think that's an important, like, that's an important thing to talk about.
[00:10:51.040 --> 00:10:53.040] Like, what are you sacrificing?
[00:10:53.040 --> 00:10:56.480] And for what are you sacrificing?
[00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:58.960] Because there's kind of two sides to that equation.
[00:10:58.960 --> 00:10:59.360] Yeah.
[00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:07.360] So maybe describe for me what on what are you willing to sacrifice and what have you kind of outlined as like the no-go zone?
[00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:11.680] Like I can't sacrifice this as I'm and just to be clear.
[00:11:11.680 --> 00:11:24.160] So right now you've got a full-time job, you've got twins at home, and on the side, you're trying to bootstrap a brand new software company with a co-founder, which I think is also another variable.
[00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:53.600] And you're still trying, you're working maximum effort, meaning I get up, maximum effort on being a dad, maximum effort on being a spouse, maximum effort on working for my employer, and then on the side, maximum effort on business building, which for you also has meant building my profile on Twitter, building up, speaking at a bunch of conferences.
[00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:58.080] This is maximum effort in a spectrum of things.
[00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:01.520] In many directions, but importantly, not every direction.
[00:12:01.520 --> 00:12:01.840] Yeah.
[00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:04.480] Yeah, it is maximum effort.
[00:12:04.800 --> 00:12:06.960] So describe the shape for me.
[00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:08.560] What are the contours of all that?
[00:12:08.560 --> 00:12:08.880] Yeah.
[00:12:08.880 --> 00:12:15.600] So for example, for example, that course that we spoke about earlier for Planet Scale, that was maximum effort.
[00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:28.560] That was incredibly difficult because I'm like putting myself out there as the MySQL expert at a company that claims to be the industry-leading MySQL company.
[00:12:28.560 --> 00:12:40.840] And so, you can imagine the pressure of being like the public face of a public company in a world of database experts that want to find the places that you were wrong, right?
[00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:44.440] So, you can imagine like the amount of effort that goes into that, the amount of production.
[00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:47.560] You know, that shooting video is really production intense.
[00:12:47.560 --> 00:12:50.520] And, like, it came out great.
[00:12:50.520 --> 00:12:53.560] And I am so proud of it.
[00:12:53.560 --> 00:12:56.040] And that's because I put in a huge amount of effort, right?
[00:12:56.360 --> 00:13:01.400] So, I think, yes, maximum effort in all of those directions.
[00:13:01.400 --> 00:13:04.840] And to the question of like, what am I willing to sacrifice?
[00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:07.000] A lot of other things is the answer.
[00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:12.280] I think, like, we talk about we being like the community.
[00:13:12.280 --> 00:13:15.960] We talk about you shouldn't sacrifice certain things.
[00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:18.600] And I think that's missing half of the conversation.
[00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:21.320] Like, what are you sacrificing for?
[00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:26.040] So, there's the thing you're sacrificing and the thing for which you are sacrificing, right?
[00:13:26.040 --> 00:13:38.360] And so, to draw like, to draw an absurd, you could say, like, I am willing to sacrifice my own life for the lives of my children 100%.
[00:13:38.680 --> 00:13:41.720] Like, if there's a car coming, I know which one of us is going to get hit.
[00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:43.960] Like, that's an easy thing to say.
[00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:46.600] I'm willing to sacrifice my life for this.
[00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:47.240] Yeah.
[00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:56.600] However, I am not willing to sacrifice my life so that PlanetScale could make a sale that they wouldn't otherwise make.
[00:13:56.600 --> 00:13:57.240] Right.
[00:13:57.400 --> 00:13:59.960] And so that equation is out of balance.
[00:13:59.960 --> 00:14:04.920] Like, I'm willing to sacrifice my life 100%, but for what?
[00:14:04.920 --> 00:14:08.760] Not for, not so that Planet Scale can close a deal, right?
[00:14:08.760 --> 00:14:09.160] Yeah.
[00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:11.160] So that's the absurd, right?
[00:14:11.160 --> 00:14:15.000] So then you have to like kind of back it down to what are the reasonables.
[00:14:15.760 --> 00:14:21.680] And so then the question becomes like, am I willing to sacrifice sleep?
[00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:25.600] Am I willing to sacrifice sleep to spend more time on Twitter?
[00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:28.320] I want to say no, because that's what I believe.
[00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.200] Sometimes that doesn't, you know, that's not true objectively.
[00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:36.800] But like, I'm not willing to sacrifice sleep to spend more time arguing with people on hacker news.
[00:14:36.800 --> 00:14:38.320] I am not willing to do that.
[00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:43.840] I am willing to sacrifice sleep to hopefully make my dreams come true.
[00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:47.280] And like, that's the kind of trade-off that I'm working with right now.
[00:14:47.280 --> 00:14:52.320] Is like, I wake up as early as I can and every day I don't want to get out of bed.
[00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:55.840] Every day I'm like, I would rather sleep in.
[00:14:56.400 --> 00:15:13.840] But the question is, are you going to sleep in and then not work on your side project that you're hoping is going to become a thing at some point and in some way is going to fulfill this dream that you can't quite put your finger on?
[00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:15.840] Or are you going to, are you going to sleep in?
[00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:19.600] And that's a question I ask myself every single morning.
[00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:20.720] What time are you waking up?
[00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:29.360] So these days I'm waking up at about six and come straight out here to the shed, the shed quarters, which is where I work, and do all my stuff in the morning.
[00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:36.160] And then at about 7:30 or 45, depending on the morning, I text my wife because I'm out in the shed quarters.
[00:15:36.160 --> 00:15:37.360] I'm like 30 or 45.
[00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:39.440] And she'll text back 30 or 45.
[00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:46.800] And so I come in at 7:30 or 45 and help with, you know, getting them out of bed, doing breakfast, doing all that kind of stuff.
[00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:51.360] And then I'm back out here at 8:30, between 8:30 and 9.
[00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:52.640] So I work from home.
[00:15:52.640 --> 00:15:54.560] So I have a lot of things going for me, right?
[00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:56.640] My wife is a stay-at-home mom.
[00:15:56.640 --> 00:15:57.360] I work from home.
[00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:00.680] So I literally walk across the back deck.
[00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:02.120] I have a lot of other things.
[00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:04.200] Like I have a partner in my side project.
[00:16:04.520 --> 00:16:08.200] So I have these things going for me that I'm very cognizant of.
[00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:13.560] And none of this is prescriptive because no one else is in my exact situation.
[00:16:13.560 --> 00:16:17.640] But at nine o'clock, I come back out and it's like time to start working for the day.
[00:16:17.640 --> 00:16:19.000] And so I work remotely.
[00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:19.880] That's another thing.
[00:16:19.880 --> 00:16:21.640] Like my full-time job is remote.
[00:16:21.640 --> 00:16:22.760] I don't go into the office.
[00:16:23.160 --> 00:16:24.680] And then I work all day.
[00:16:24.680 --> 00:16:31.960] And then at night, like 5:30 or 6, depending on, you know, when the boss tells me it's dinner time, I go in and I help with the kids' dinner.
[00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:36.520] And so, you know, we do kids' dinner at like an absurd hour.
[00:16:36.520 --> 00:16:38.120] They eat at like 5:30.
[00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:40.840] And I'm like, wow, you guys are so early.
[00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:41.560] Why are you eating?
[00:16:41.560 --> 00:16:42.520] But, you know, they're two.
[00:16:43.560 --> 00:16:47.160] And then I help put them to bed and then I do the dishes.
[00:16:47.160 --> 00:16:48.680] And then my wife and I will eat.
[00:16:48.680 --> 00:16:52.520] And then it's a question of like, are we hanging out, me and her?
[00:16:52.520 --> 00:16:54.280] Or is she going somewhere?
[00:16:54.280 --> 00:16:55.080] Am I going somewhere?
[00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:56.360] Or is it back to work?
[00:16:56.360 --> 00:16:59.160] And that's when the rest of the side work gets done.
[00:16:59.160 --> 00:17:05.160] And then weekends are, you know, similar, different, but that's the basic structure of a day.
[00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:05.720] Yeah.
[00:17:05.720 --> 00:17:09.880] I mean, I think the context, obviously, context is everything.
[00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:16.360] So this question: can you bootstrap a new startup when you have young kids?
[00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:18.760] The answer is it depends.
[00:17:18.760 --> 00:17:27.560] Especially in North America, there's this continuous thread of rugged individualism, Protestant work ethic.
[00:17:27.560 --> 00:17:30.760] I'm going to hustle culture.
[00:17:30.760 --> 00:17:39.800] You know, most notably, Gary Vaynerchuk was kind of like, I'll stay up till your eyeballs bleed, and did that when he had young kids.
[00:17:40.040 --> 00:17:41.800] He's now divorced, I think.
[00:17:41.800 --> 00:17:44.320] You know, context matters in all of this.
[00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:49.360] And there's so many factors, and I think you've highlighted some of them.
[00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:52.080] Number one, do you have a job?
[00:17:52.080 --> 00:17:54.400] Number two, how demanding is that job?
[00:17:54.400 --> 00:18:00.080] Number three, do you work remote or are you commuting every day?
[00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:04.880] Number four, where's your partner in all of this?
[00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:07.520] And that is a massive question.
[00:18:07.840 --> 00:18:08.480] Yeah.
[00:18:11.040 --> 00:18:31.920] The response to the Twitter thread was there's quite a few people who said they thought that starting trying to bootstrap a company on top of having young kids would only be possible if your spouse was a superhero doing 90% of the housework and child care.
[00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:40.320] Part of my thinking in all of this, I think sometimes I just want to be careful of my own when I'm discussing things.
[00:18:40.320 --> 00:18:42.800] I want to be careful of that.
[00:18:43.680 --> 00:19:08.720] Well, I know I want to be careful when I'm communicating to people to say, if I'm going to give general advice, the advice would be, it depends, but you really need to think through a lot of issues and some things that are easy to maybe even rationalize in the meantime, which is, I think my spouse is on top in this, you know, I think that, and they're a superhero.
[00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:09.920] They're superhuman.
[00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:11.440] They can do this with me.
[00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:13.520] Humans are just actually humans.
[00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:16.000] We're all actually normal.
[00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:18.080] None of us are really super.
[00:19:18.080 --> 00:19:34.280] The difference between saying, for example, hey, honey, I'm going to really put maximum effort into my job right now because there's a high chance that if I put maximum effort into my career, there's a high chance I'm going to get promoted.
[00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:41.880] And that could mean us going from $100,000 to $130,000 or $130,000 to $180,000.
[00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:44.520] And those jumps are significant.
[00:19:45.080 --> 00:19:55.400] The challenge with the business is that you are risking, you're making this bet that requires an enormous amount of energy, time, focus.
[00:19:55.720 --> 00:20:00.680] And in some ways, at least for me, I guess this is where the individual comes in.
[00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:05.560] You know, when I'm really good on Twitter, I'm thinking about tweets all the time.
[00:20:05.560 --> 00:20:07.000] All the time.
[00:20:07.320 --> 00:20:17.240] And when I'm really good and fully on maximum effort with business, I'm thinking about stuff all the time.
[00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:17.880] Sure.
[00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:22.360] And that is obviously going to take my focus away from other things.
[00:20:22.360 --> 00:20:26.120] The risk you're doing, you're making a bet.
[00:20:26.120 --> 00:20:31.560] And with business, it's just very likely that a lot of those bets aren't going to pay off.
[00:20:31.560 --> 00:20:32.920] And that was certainly true for me.
[00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:37.000] I've had multiple bets throughout my adult life.
[00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:41.080] We had kids pretty young, so 22 is when we had Sadie.
[00:20:41.080 --> 00:20:50.760] You know, I was making bets there, and some of those bets were maximum effort, cost a lot, and didn't pan out.
[00:20:50.760 --> 00:20:57.400] I've got an inbox full of people who are sometimes in the same situation.
[00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:05.640] They're like, I'm risking it all right now, or I'm risking a big, you know, I'm taking this bet right now.
[00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:12.520] And sometimes my advice is, you know, you can take those bets, but the foundation you're building this on matters a lot.
[00:21:12.520 --> 00:21:22.560] And sometimes it just makes sense to wait until the kids are out of diapers or until the kids are in school before you take that bet.
[00:21:23.040 --> 00:21:24.960] And a lot of it has to do with margin.
[00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:29.280] Like, if I lose this bet, how much can I afford to lose?
[00:21:29.760 --> 00:21:37.040] If I lose this bet, will this, you know, send our family into a tailspin or me into a tailspin?
[00:21:37.280 --> 00:21:49.680] So that's, I think, part of where I'm coming from is the to be a counter narrative where, you know, American dream, American Protestant work ethic, all that stuff.
[00:21:51.280 --> 00:21:54.160] The balance on that is to say, well, hold on.
[00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:55.520] You could wait.
[00:21:55.520 --> 00:21:57.920] My wife and I did this after a first business.
[00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:01.680] We had a retail business, a couple snowboard shops didn't work out.
[00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:05.440] She said, and this is probably part of the picture too, is right?
[00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:06.560] What does your spouse say?
[00:22:06.560 --> 00:22:13.760] She said, I would really appreciate it if you just took a break from this until the kids are in school.
[00:22:13.760 --> 00:22:14.400] So we did.
[00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:18.720] You know, I just worked on career for the next however many years that was.
[00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:31.760] And I felt like that was a good decision to just wait and work on other things in the background, you know, do a little audience building, make some connections, get some skills.
[00:22:31.760 --> 00:22:33.920] Anyway, so that's part of where I'm coming from.
[00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:36.720] What do you think about all of that?
[00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:39.680] Yeah, I think everything you've said is eminently reasonable.
[00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:46.240] And I think that's the interesting thing about the discussion is that there are many reasonable takes.
[00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:50.320] And I think it's incredibly important.
[00:22:50.320 --> 00:22:58.800] I think as a covering of every reasonable take, it's incredibly important that people think about this and figure it out for themselves.
[00:22:58.800 --> 00:23:05.000] So I think a lot of times, obviously, it's hard to have nuance on Twitter.
[00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:06.680] That's not what it was invented for.
[00:23:07.800 --> 00:23:16.120] So I think a lot of times we'll see the narrative and the counter narrative, and then we come back to me, which is the counter-counter narrative, right?
[00:23:16.120 --> 00:23:17.720] Which is basically the original narrative.
[00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:19.880] Like you got to freaking work hard.
[00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:22.360] And so I think a lot of things.
[00:23:22.360 --> 00:24:34.720] So let's start with like the people and you yourself who were saying like it's a bet and you're taking these bets and what if they don't pay off right yeah I feel pretty exposed on that right now because Colleen and my our business isn't working right so like like we're not making we're at the very beginning I don't have the benefit to look back and rewrite some story and say this is like this is what you should do because I did I'm like I have no idea I am in between trapezes hoping that I catch the next one and I'm on the show right now recording it in stone and I have no idea if I'm gonna catch the next one or I'm gonna fall right and so yeah I feel that intimately like I know that it's a bet and I know that it might not work what I will say again is I'll go back to like I'll go back to the sacrifice equation of like what am I willing to sacrifice and what am I not willing to sacrifice so let's talk about I think there are stakeholders in this right me as an individual my spouse and my kids I am not willing to sacrifice time with my kids.
[00:24:34.760 --> 00:24:37.440] I'm just, I'm not willing to do it.
[00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:40.960] We, my kids and I, can't have an informed discussion about that.
[00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:42.880] They are two years old, right?
[00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:54.480] So, I'm not, I'm not willing to say, like, I'm not willing to say, hey, I would love to be inside for breakfast and be inside for dinner, but dad is working on his dream.
[00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:55.440] I'm, I'm sorry.
[00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.240] Like, that is a reasonable decision to make.
[00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:01.680] That's one that I have made and I've made it the other way.
[00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:03.920] And I've said, I'm going to be inside for breakfast.
[00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:06.000] I'm going to be inside for dinner.
[00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:10.160] Like, and there are things that I would maybe rather do.
[00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:13.760] I've decided this is more important to be with my kids.
[00:25:13.760 --> 00:25:15.200] So, there's that.
[00:25:15.520 --> 00:25:22.800] Then there's the question of like, what have, like, what about other things like time with my spouse?
[00:25:22.800 --> 00:25:30.800] And that's different because she and I can talk about that and come to an agreement as a unit and be like, okay, what are, like, what's important?
[00:25:30.800 --> 00:25:31.840] What's not important?
[00:25:31.840 --> 00:25:36.560] Is it important that we watch two hours of TV together every night?
[00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:38.800] No, turns out it's not.
[00:25:38.800 --> 00:25:40.560] Like, that's fun.
[00:25:40.560 --> 00:25:43.280] Turns out that's really not that important.
[00:25:43.280 --> 00:25:47.600] Does she care if I work instead of watch TV with her?
[00:25:47.600 --> 00:25:48.320] She doesn't.
[00:25:48.320 --> 00:25:52.640] Your spouse, you know, your, you, the listener, your spouse might, mine doesn't, right?
[00:25:53.040 --> 00:25:55.680] So that's like two, two different parties.
[00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:59.200] I think the third party is me, right?
[00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:05.600] So there are things that I can sacrifice that really kind of only affect me.
[00:26:05.600 --> 00:26:10.400] I mean, there are externalities, but like I can decide to get up earlier.
[00:26:10.800 --> 00:26:25.840] I can decide to get up earlier and I can decide that to me, it is more important that I try to fulfill whatever this thing inside of me is than that I sleep until 7:30 and then walk out and get the kids up.
[00:26:25.840 --> 00:26:30.000] Like, there is an amount of time and there is a sacrifice I can make.
[00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:33.880] I can decide, I can decide that I don't watch sports.
[00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:42.760] Like, I don't really have a huge desire to watch sports, but I also don't spend my entire Sunday watching NFL football because I do not care.
[00:26:42.760 --> 00:26:54.680] And I think there's something more important, and I want like, I want to give something up to have the space to work on this thing that I want to come true in my life.
[00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:56.200] I don't have other hobbies.
[00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:58.360] People are like, What are your hobbies?
[00:26:58.360 --> 00:27:00.040] Man, my hobbies are work.
[00:27:00.040 --> 00:27:00.520] Yeah.
[00:27:00.520 --> 00:27:03.160] And that is a decision that I've, that I've made.
[00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:06.200] I, I like, I don't even, I can't even make up a hobby.
[00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:09.960] Like, I guess also sports, like playing basketball maybe is a hobby.
[00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:11.640] I don't have that hobby.
[00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:15.320] My hobby, my hobby is trying to make my dreams come true.
[00:27:15.320 --> 00:27:17.080] And is it worth it?
[00:27:17.080 --> 00:27:18.680] Um, it's a risk.
[00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:19.320] Yeah.
[00:27:19.320 --> 00:27:20.200] But, yeah.
[00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:29.400] But the equation is not, I'm going to sacrifice the youth of my children to try to build a business and then have the business fail.
[00:27:29.560 --> 00:27:31.640] Like, that is an equation that is too far for me.
[00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:33.320] I'm too risk averse to take that.
[00:27:33.320 --> 00:27:37.480] And I think personally for me, that would make me regret my life.
[00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:38.360] And I don't want that.
[00:27:38.360 --> 00:27:40.920] I want to regret very little if possible.
[00:27:40.920 --> 00:27:41.400] Yeah.
[00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:58.520] If I look back, if I look back in 10 years and the business has failed and I am sleepier than I otherwise would be and I sacrificed a lot of like, you know, fun nights and weekends, like, I don't know, go-karting or whatever hobbies are.
[00:27:58.520 --> 00:28:07.080] Like, that's a, that's a thing I'm willing to look back on and say that sacrifice was worth it, even if it didn't play out.
[00:28:07.080 --> 00:28:10.840] How much are you sacrificing other things like friendships?
[00:28:10.840 --> 00:28:13.400] In my estimation, very little.
[00:28:13.400 --> 00:28:18.320] So, um, I do uh, I do a it's the weirdest schedule.
[00:28:14.600 --> 00:28:21.600] Once every three weeks, I go to breakfast with a big group of guys.
[00:28:21.600 --> 00:28:25.840] We do a Bible study every Wednesday night, we go to church every Sunday.
[00:28:25.840 --> 00:28:29.600] I see friends probably once or twice a weekend.
[00:28:29.600 --> 00:28:32.240] So, I see friends quite a bit, actually.
[00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:34.240] Okay, that's pretty good.
[00:28:34.800 --> 00:28:38.800] Yeah, especially for a 34-year-old with you know, with kids, that's a lot.
[00:28:38.800 --> 00:28:49.840] You're right, like that, the way you split that up is was great because uh you know, you've got your kids, your spouse, and then you've got you.
[00:28:50.160 --> 00:29:11.200] And the you part is tricky because it really depends on how well you know yourself, how well you really know yourself, how well you can't, you know, for me personally, so much of what you're saying is exactly how I've felt my entire life.
[00:29:11.360 --> 00:29:12.640] Hobbies, what hobbies?
[00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:14.320] Work is my hobby.
[00:29:14.320 --> 00:29:17.280] Um, you know, people say, Well, why can't you just be satisfied?
[00:29:17.280 --> 00:29:18.480] You've got a good job.
[00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:20.880] Why can't you just be satisfied with that?
[00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:25.360] I said, I'm just not content to sit here and do this.
[00:29:25.360 --> 00:29:27.360] Why are you willing to make this risk?
[00:29:27.360 --> 00:29:29.760] Not just one risk, multiple risks.
[00:29:29.760 --> 00:29:31.600] Why are you willing to make these bets?
[00:29:31.600 --> 00:29:34.160] Why are you willing to invest yourself in this thing?
[00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:46.400] And it was because I had this dream that life could be better, that life could be different, that we could get somewhere that would make that could potentially make those bets worthwhile.
[00:29:46.640 --> 00:30:00.280] On the other side of it, now I've been through it, and I think some of my rosiness that I had when I was younger has gone away, especially when it comes to advising other people and what they should do.
[00:30:00.280 --> 00:30:04.600] Because in retrospect, it's like, wow, we made it.
[00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:06.920] So honestly, on this side, it is better.
[00:30:07.080 --> 00:30:08.040] It's just better.
[00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:09.560] I know.
[00:30:10.360 --> 00:30:10.920] I believe that.
[00:30:12.280 --> 00:30:13.480] The money is better.
[00:30:14.040 --> 00:30:15.960] The schedule's better.
[00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:20.440] The sense of purpose is better.
[00:30:20.440 --> 00:30:26.840] When things are going well, this can obviously all of this is still subject to change.
[00:30:27.080 --> 00:30:32.040] And, you know, I have friends who have also achieved this and they're feeling the same way.
[00:30:32.040 --> 00:30:43.160] This is, it's why Tyler Tringus says this is the new American dream because it is substantially, when it works, it's substantially better.
[00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:53.240] But as I've, you know, I've had a blog and a podcast and a community for aspiring bootstrappers for a long time.
[00:30:53.240 --> 00:31:09.000] And giving advice has gotten a lot harder, especially if I'm honest about my experience, which was at the time, I said, you know, when I was really hustling, I felt like, you know, I don't have any hobbies and that's okay.
[00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:11.000] I am willing to sacrifice this thing.
[00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:12.520] It's fine.
[00:31:12.520 --> 00:31:20.920] And there were some things, some blind spots that I didn't see that ended up really affecting me.
[00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:28.600] And I was talking about this with my wife, and I'm like, you know, it's so hard because on one hand, I'm like, this life is better.
[00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:36.600] But on the other hand, I can now see everything you have to pass through to get here, or at least that I did.
[00:31:36.600 --> 00:31:38.680] I'm sure it's easier for some people.
[00:31:38.680 --> 00:32:06.240] The question I don't have an answer to is: can you accomplish all of this without all that risk, without all that pain, without all that, and by risk, I mean like real burnout, like real, like everything comes to a head at the same time, and it's all falling apart, and you don't know if you're going to make it through kind of period.
[00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:10.880] My wife sometimes says, you know, I don't know, maybe that's just how life is.
[00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:16.400] To accomplish something like that, there's just going to be the risk of pain.
[00:32:16.560 --> 00:32:24.640] There's this other part of me, though, that wants to believe that in the same way that other people who have gone ahead of me have been able to reduce some of my pain.
[00:32:25.040 --> 00:32:32.080] Like I've had talks with Jason Cohen that have substantially removed a lot of unneeded pain from my life.
[00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:47.360] I think part of my position now is I'm like, I think there is the potential for some people to avoid some unnecessary pain, some unnecessary risks, some unnecessary pressure.
[00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:59.920] And for some folks, that will mean, hey, I'm just going to wait until for me to ratchet this up.
[00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:03.280] The right advice at the wrong time is the wrong advice, right?
[00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:05.680] That's the hard thing about giving advice.
[00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:11.280] And so I wonder if we could, well, first of all, why don't you respond to that?
[00:33:11.280 --> 00:33:24.880] And then we can go from there maybe in identifying more of those factors, more of those things that might help people make a decision one way or the other in terms of evaluating their own situation.
[00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:27.680] But yeah, any thoughts on what I just said there?
[00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:44.040] Yeah, so to the question of unnecessary pain, unnecessary risk, of course, I don't have any answers, but what I hear a lot is for the purposes of this conversation, you, Justin, you have made it.
[00:33:44.040 --> 00:33:45.400] I'm going to say that you've made it.
[00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:48.440] Whatever that means to people listening, you've made it.
[00:33:48.440 --> 00:33:58.120] I hear a lot of people who have made it say, you all can make it, but like, you don't, don't do it, don't do it the way that I did it.
[00:33:58.120 --> 00:34:04.840] And the way that everyone who has made it, the way that they did it was they worked really freaking hard.
[00:34:04.840 --> 00:34:08.200] And like each one of you, each one of you made separate mistakes.
[00:34:08.200 --> 00:34:11.480] And so Jason Cohen's like, I made mistake A, B, and C, so don't do that.
[00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:13.160] And you're like, ah, fantastic.
[00:34:13.160 --> 00:34:17.800] Adam Wathan's like, I made mistakes D, E, and F because I listened to Jason.
[00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:20.360] But everyone made mistakes.
[00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:25.720] Everyone made tactical mistakes, relational mistakes, you know, mistakes of direction, whatever.
[00:34:26.040 --> 00:34:41.080] But what I see everyone having in common, except maybe Daniel Vasalo and DHH, they're all like, I worked incredibly freaking hard and I sacrificed things to get to where I am.
[00:34:41.080 --> 00:34:45.400] And then, you know, there are the two outliers who are like, no, you can do it in 10 hours a week.
[00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:47.400] And I'm like, that would be amazing.
[00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:48.440] I would love to do that.
[00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:51.480] But I haven't been able to crack that nut, right?
[00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:59.000] So what everyone else says when they get to the top, when they make it, is like, hey, I've made it and it's awesome, but it was really hard work.
[00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:00.360] So don't like, don't do it.
[00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:03.160] And I'm like, how am I supposed to get there then?
[00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:05.640] I am willing to do the hard work.
[00:35:05.640 --> 00:35:07.640] Like, that doesn't scare me.
[00:35:07.640 --> 00:35:15.680] What scares me, honestly, what scares me is not working hard and reaching the end and thinking, God, I wish I had worked harder.
[00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:15.840] Yeah.
[00:35:16.160 --> 00:35:23.760] Like reaching the end and thinking, not like, not, not, I wish I had given more of myself to a company.
[00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:25.920] Like, I don't freaking care about that.
[00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:32.800] What I, what I fear the most is reaching the end and thinking, I wish I had watched less TV.
[00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:34.720] I wish I'd gotten up a little bit earlier.
[00:35:34.720 --> 00:35:37.120] And I wish I had tried to make my dreams come true.
[00:35:37.120 --> 00:35:39.840] Like that's pretty terrifying.
[00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:41.280] Like that's pretty terrifying.
[00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:48.000] And so I have to balance that with reaching the end and thinking, I wish I'd spent more time with my kids.
[00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:50.640] That's even more terrifying, right?
[00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:59.120] The fear of unfulfilled dreams is not as great as the fear of not fulfilling my role as a father, right?
[00:35:59.120 --> 00:36:01.280] Like, I can't even, I can't handle that.
[00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:02.640] I can't handle that fear.
[00:36:02.640 --> 00:36:03.040] Yeah.
[00:36:03.040 --> 00:36:06.960] But both of those fears, both of those fears are pretty strong.
[00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:26.640] And when you look, when you, when you put yourself at the end and look back, you think, man, I do not care about watching the office for a 57th time when I could open my computer and try to make this thing that is inside me, like I could try to make this thing happen.
[00:36:26.640 --> 00:36:29.360] Like, I don't have hobbies, but you know what?
[00:36:29.680 --> 00:36:31.360] Painters like to paint, right?
[00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:32.480] What is a painter's hobby?
[00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:32.960] I don't know.
[00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:34.320] They probably paint.
[00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:36.000] Like, I'm a programmer.
[00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:36.960] I like to build things.
[00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.160] I like to make things.
[00:36:38.160 --> 00:36:41.200] My hobby is making things, is building things.
[00:36:41.200 --> 00:36:45.360] Like, you know, I'm sure the painter's parents are always like, why don't you get a real job?
[00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:46.080] You're just a painter.
[00:36:46.080 --> 00:36:48.240] And the painter's like, I have to paint.
[00:36:48.240 --> 00:36:55.120] Like, I have a job because I have duties as a father and as a husband, but why don't I have hobbies?
[00:36:55.120 --> 00:36:56.240] Because I have to paint.
[00:36:56.240 --> 00:36:58.480] Like, I have to do this thing.
[00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:00.520] And I am hoping that it will work.
[00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:07.240] And I am going on the record while I'm mid-air between two trapezes saying it is worth it for me right now.
[00:37:07.560 --> 00:37:17.880] And I am very, very aware that in five years or 10 years, I may be coming on, you know, Justin's Build Your SAS 2.0 and being like, My guy, it didn't work.
[00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:22.280] But I'm willing to say, like, I have counted the costs at this point.
[00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:25.560] And so far, I've weighed it and I've measured it.
[00:37:25.560 --> 00:37:27.720] And I think it's worth it.
[00:37:27.720 --> 00:37:29.720] I mean, this is why it's so individual.
[00:37:29.720 --> 00:37:31.880] Now, I don't really know what's going on with you.
[00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:42.360] I don't have an omnipotent view of how you're doing psychology, how you're really doing how your relationship with your wife and your kids really is.
[00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:45.640] It's sometimes, you know, none of us can really have that.
[00:37:45.640 --> 00:38:00.280] But based on what I know about your situation and based on what I'm hearing, if I was advising you, I would probably say you should probably go for it because you seem to have a lot of the margin where you need it.
[00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:08.680] So if you have a partner who is like, yeah, go for it, no hesitation.
[00:38:08.680 --> 00:38:10.280] Like, go, go, go.
[00:38:10.600 --> 00:38:12.520] I would say, well, that's a pretty good sign.
[00:38:12.520 --> 00:38:28.200] If you have a partner that is, this is what I've seen as I've talked to a lot of couples who have, you know, where one person's building the business, the other is not, is sometimes there's a slight hesitation on one of the partners, or they don't fully understand what this means.
[00:38:28.200 --> 00:38:29.560] I'm building a business.
[00:38:29.560 --> 00:38:32.360] Okay, what does that mean practically?
[00:38:32.680 --> 00:38:47.280] And problems start where there's not a full understanding of what this is actually going to entail, of what it actually is going to mean in terms of sacrifice, what it actually means in terms of a bet and all those things.
[00:38:44.840 --> 00:38:50.400] But it seems like in your situation, that's pretty solid.
[00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:58.160] I will say, as an interjection here, I think my wife is in the second category of, I guess, like.
[00:38:58.160 --> 00:39:02.080] She's in the category of like, I don't really know what that means, but that's great.
[00:39:02.080 --> 00:39:09.120] And the reason that it works is because of the things I've decided are okay to sacrifice and the things that are not okay to sacrifice.
[00:39:09.680 --> 00:39:12.080] So she's like, I don't really know.
[00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:14.720] Like, you're on your computer when you're working.
[00:39:14.720 --> 00:39:18.560] You're on your computer when you're side working and you're on your computer when you're playing.
[00:39:18.560 --> 00:39:21.200] So like, oh my God, do whatever you want.
[00:39:21.200 --> 00:39:23.040] Like, I don't really know.
[00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:31.600] If there were spouses listening to this right now, that is like 90% of spouses just went, yeah, Frank.
[00:39:32.240 --> 00:39:33.360] What's the deal?
[00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:35.280] Always on the computer.
[00:39:35.600 --> 00:39:36.400] Here's the thing.
[00:39:37.120 --> 00:39:44.160] I haven't asked her, like, I haven't asked her to make the same level of sacrifice that I'm making.
[00:39:44.160 --> 00:39:45.920] I have asked her to make sacrifices.
[00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:46.240] Yes.
[00:39:46.240 --> 00:39:50.480] Like, there are nights where I'm like, hey, I'm going to go back outside.
[00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:51.360] Is that okay?
[00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:53.360] And she's like, sure, that's fine.
[00:39:53.600 --> 00:40:02.000] But I'm not asking her to like do everything in the morning and do everything at dinner time when I would otherwise be available.
[00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:02.240] Right.
[00:40:02.240 --> 00:40:06.000] So like during the day, I am, I am full-time W-2.
[00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:11.280] But outside of those hours, like I should be available if I were not working on side stuff.
[00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:14.960] And so I am because I sacrifice other things.
[00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:22.640] So, like, yes, my spouse is incredibly supportive, and I'm under no illusions that I could do this if she were working outside of the home.
[00:40:22.640 --> 00:40:26.080] But it's not like she is team, she's team business.
[00:40:26.080 --> 00:40:28.320] She's just like, yeah, that's great.
[00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:31.320] You, I know that you need to fulfill this thing, and also you're here to help me.
[00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:32.440] So, like, do whatever you want.
[00:40:33.640 --> 00:40:39.480] And it's probably fine as long as those expectations are somewhat compatible.
[00:40:39.480 --> 00:40:43.800] I've been running Mega Maker since 2013.
[00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:51.400] And in the midst of that, there's been every once in a while, just what you have that many people go through, family stuff comes up.
[00:40:51.400 --> 00:41:06.200] And a recurring trend is that the one partner thought that everything was fine, that they were on the same page with their spouse, that everyone understood the risks and the sacrifice and all of that.
[00:41:06.200 --> 00:41:09.160] And then, but in reality, they didn't.
[00:41:09.160 --> 00:41:15.480] It can cause a lot of pain if there's not a lot of communication and a lot of understanding.
[00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:27.480] You can think somebody understands, but it's that some of the, it's often those little things that can that can grow bigger if you're not careful.
[00:41:28.040 --> 00:41:30.520] And, but I've also seen the opposite.
[00:41:30.520 --> 00:41:39.560] I've seen two people who are like, we're in this family together, and this is how I see my role, and this is how you see your role, and we're going to do this.
[00:41:39.560 --> 00:41:42.840] And we are just solid in that.
[00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:46.360] And so they're both can work.
[00:41:46.360 --> 00:41:51.240] The things to be careful about, if you're listening, is really getting on the same page.
[00:41:51.560 --> 00:42:21.760] I mean, one thing I would, I think is pretty good general advice is I would have definitely gone to therapy for myself personally and with my partner, way earlier in the process, and had a third party who is trained in asking the right questions to say, so why don't you each describe what you think is going to happen here and what's going to be involved, and let's really just kind of talk it out, you know?
[00:42:22.080 --> 00:42:23.120] I would echo that.
[00:42:23.120 --> 00:42:29.360] I mean, I've been going to counseling individually for, I don't know, five years, something like that.
[00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:40.800] My wife has been going for 15 years and we've been going, we've almost been married 10 years, and we've probably gone to counseling for on and off for five or six years.
[00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:43.280] Like, it's just, it's just helpful.
[00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:49.440] Like, it's just extremely helpful to be able to pay someone to listen to you and ask questions.
[00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:50.320] Like, yeah.
[00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:51.840] So, yeah, we, we do, we do that.
[00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:52.640] We do all kinds of stuff.
[00:42:52.640 --> 00:42:53.520] We have a name.
[00:42:53.520 --> 00:42:57.280] Like, it's again, it's really helpful to name things so that expectations are correct.
[00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:00.000] We have a name called Individual Pursuits Night.
[00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:04.320] And it's like, hey, are we going to, do you want to do individual pursuits tonight?
[00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:09.840] And sometimes she's like, yeah, I want to watch Gossip Girl, and I don't want you to be laughing at it because it's ridiculous.
[00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:10.960] And so it's like, great.
[00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:12.480] You have a thing you want to do.
[00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:13.760] I have a thing I want to do.
[00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:15.360] Let's do individual pursuits tonight.
[00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:15.840] Oh, I like that.
[00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:19.200] And sometimes it's like, no, we're not doing individual pursuits.
[00:43:19.200 --> 00:43:23.600] We're going to, like, we're going to watch a show together and then we're going to have, we're going to talk or we're going to do something.
[00:43:23.600 --> 00:43:26.080] And like, so it's helpful to name things again.
[00:43:26.080 --> 00:43:32.560] IPN versus CPN, Individual Pursuits Night or Couple Pursuits Night.
[00:43:33.200 --> 00:43:33.760] Yeah.
[00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:37.680] I'll float that acronym and see how it goes and report back to you.
[00:43:37.680 --> 00:43:38.480] You know what, baby?
[00:43:38.560 --> 00:43:39.680] IPN tonight?
[00:43:40.480 --> 00:43:41.440] IPN.
[00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:43.760] I mean, these things are helpful.
[00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:52.400] This is why I think podcasting is such a helpful medium because the nuance comes out and also just like good ideas come out.
[00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:54.840] Like this idea, like Individual Pursuits Night.
[00:43:54.840 --> 00:43:55.840] Maybe I'll use that.
[00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:56.880] That's great.
[00:43:56.880 --> 00:43:57.600] That's a great idea.
[00:43:58.560 --> 00:44:04.280] And there are certain, this is the other thing that I have this belief.
[00:44:04.520 --> 00:44:12.360] And again, I could be wrong, but it motivates a lot of my tweets, blog posts, podcasts, thinking.
[00:44:12.680 --> 00:44:19.240] I do believe that it's possible to give people a framework that makes their life better.
[00:44:19.240 --> 00:44:41.480] That there are certain practices, there are certain things you can put in place, like therapy, like you just said, that just objectively for almost everybody will improve the quality of their life, will eliminate unnecessary suffering, and will give you a stronger foundation to build a life.
[00:44:41.720 --> 00:44:52.200] That foundation, I think, is important in the same way that I believe the foundation of building a business is you have to have customer demand.
[00:44:52.200 --> 00:45:00.520] Without customer demand as the foundation, meaning there is a market or a category that you're in where there is momentum.
[00:45:00.520 --> 00:45:09.800] People are seeking and buying a product like yours or seeking and buying something that is equivalent to what you're offering.
[00:45:10.120 --> 00:45:14.520] Without that foundation, you can't build a business.
[00:45:14.520 --> 00:45:16.520] People have to want what you're making.
[00:45:16.520 --> 00:45:25.720] And in the same way, there are pillars of a good life and pillars of a strong foundation that really make a lot of this stuff.
[00:45:25.720 --> 00:45:31.320] I think maybe this is part of your confidence is that you've got some of these pillars in place.
[00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:34.440] So we talked about communication with your spouse.
[00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:36.120] We talked about therapy.
[00:45:36.120 --> 00:45:39.080] Are there some other pillars that you can think of?
[00:45:39.720 --> 00:45:49.360] One is you have a career that is also compatible with you building skills, an audience.
[00:45:49.680 --> 00:45:54.240] Like there's some cross-pollination, cross-Venn diagram.
[00:45:54.240 --> 00:45:57.120] Is there other things, or do you want to speak to that a little bit?
[00:45:57.120 --> 00:45:57.600] Sure.
[00:45:57.600 --> 00:45:58.000] Yeah.
[00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:16.560] I mean, I think my role at Planet Scale is an ideal situation for me because one, it is in the same neighborhood as the, you know, the product slash products that I'm building, right?
[00:46:16.560 --> 00:46:19.920] It's developer tooling, it's databases.
[00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:26.000] It fits within my universe of who is Aaron Francis online, right?
[00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:28.480] So that is not lost on me.
[00:46:28.720 --> 00:46:30.480] I mean, I'm nothing if not strategic.
[00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:36.000] That was not lost on me when it was like, hey, do you want to come, you know, create content for this database company?
[00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:37.040] I'm like, hell yeah, I do.
[00:46:37.040 --> 00:46:37.520] Yeah.
[00:46:37.520 --> 00:46:38.640] So that is compatible.
[00:46:38.640 --> 00:46:43.680] I think it also is compatible that I don't spend all day writing code, right?
[00:46:43.680 --> 00:46:55.200] So if I were to spend all day writing code and then log off and go sit on the couch and then log on and write some more code, I don't know how much that would affect me.
[00:46:55.200 --> 00:46:58.560] I like to think that like I could just code forever.
[00:46:59.520 --> 00:47:01.600] I think that would be a little bit harder.
[00:47:01.600 --> 00:47:10.800] And so what I do most of the day, like daytime work, is like researching and writing and making videos about databases.
[00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:16.720] And so then when it comes to be nighttime work or, you know, early morning work, it's like, ah, finally, I get to write some code.
[00:47:16.720 --> 00:47:24.720] And so there's a little bit of like variation between how I spend my brain juice all day and how I spend it at night or in the early morning.
[00:47:24.720 --> 00:47:27.040] And that's really, really helpful, right?
[00:47:27.040 --> 00:47:32.920] Yeah, that strategy is being strategic, I think, is also an underrated.
[00:47:32.920 --> 00:47:35.480] Being strategic is an underrated strategy.
[00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:36.520] Yes.
[00:47:36.520 --> 00:47:37.000] Yes.
[00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:37.800] I think so.
[00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:45.400] I think like effort in every direction, uncoordinated, is an entire, is entirely wasteful.
[00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:45.800] Yeah.
[00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:49.560] Like we talked about, it's not maximum effort in every vector.
[00:47:49.560 --> 00:47:51.000] Like I can't do that.
[00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:52.840] I don't think anyone can.
[00:47:52.840 --> 00:48:02.200] It's maximum effort in vectors that are generally pretty aligned and strategically the things that I think will take me to where I want to be going.
[00:48:02.200 --> 00:48:02.680] Right.
[00:48:02.680 --> 00:48:12.440] So I'm not going to put maximum effort into something where when I arrive at the end, it's like, well, crap, that's not actually where I wanted to go.
[00:48:12.440 --> 00:48:29.160] And so it's very important to think like, all right, if these things are true, if my family needs health insurance, if I need to make a salary, if I want to make my dreams come true, I want to spend time with my spouse and kids, all right, let's write all these things down.
[00:48:29.160 --> 00:48:30.600] What do I do with all of those?
[00:48:30.600 --> 00:48:43.480] How can I point as many of those vectors in the same like general direction as possible instead of like pointing them in opposite directions, which seems really, really hard to do.
[00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:45.720] And I don't know that I would be able to pull that off.
[00:48:45.720 --> 00:48:45.960] Yeah.
[00:48:45.960 --> 00:48:54.760] And another part of strategy is an honest assessment of where you actually are at right now.
[00:48:55.000 --> 00:49:07.960] Meaning, if you are taking care of a family member who has health problems, that is a real thing in your life that you've got to account for.
[00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:11.800] Meaning, I only have limited resources here.
[00:49:12.120 --> 00:49:18.080] And if this is a real part of my life, then I'm going to have to consider that.
[00:49:18.080 --> 00:49:26.480] If you are two months into being parents, and if things are going great and you're like, this is great.
[00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:28.000] These kids are sleeping.
[00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:29.840] These kids are, you know, we get this.
[00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:31.600] We're actually really good at this.
[00:49:31.920 --> 00:49:33.520] It doesn't stress us out.
[00:49:33.520 --> 00:49:34.400] Then that's a good sign.
[00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:36.960] That's an honest assessment of where you're at.
[00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:42.880] If you're two months into parenting and you're like, this is way harder than I thought it would be.
[00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:45.120] The wheels are falling off the bus.
[00:49:45.120 --> 00:49:48.800] This is more stressful than I ever imagined.
[00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:52.960] That's not a great situation to start a business in.
[00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:59.840] You know, you got to be honest with yourself and be like, what's really happening right now?
[00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:06.000] This is why in strategy, they always talk about strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats.
[00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:14.480] Well, your strengths and weaknesses are like, what is honestly going on here at home that we need to consider here?
[00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:28.160] And if there are some major situational things in your life that, and maybe it's just like, we've got too many priorities.
[00:50:28.160 --> 00:50:40.480] We can't pay off the, we can't pay off all of our student loan debt and do the, all at the same time, and take care of mom and, you know, deal with these health issues.
[00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:44.240] And you've got to, you've got to have an honest assessment of all that.
[00:50:44.240 --> 00:50:49.920] So strategically, you can go, okay, now let's think about how we're gonna, you know, do this.
[00:50:50.160 --> 00:50:56.720] Yeah, I think what, what, no, I think what you're talking about there is it's the sacrifice equation running the other direction.
[00:50:56.720 --> 00:51:13.560] So, like, if you're taking care of a sick, if you're taking care of a sick spouse or a parent or your aging parents or whatever, you have to decide, like, okay, I'm gonna sacrifice working on my business because I'm gonna take care of my aging parents or my sick spouse or whatever.
[00:51:13.560 --> 00:51:17.800] And again, you just have to count, like, you have, you have to count the cost.
[00:51:17.800 --> 00:51:28.120] Like, it is more important to me to take care of my aging parents early in the morning and late at night than it is to work on my business early in the morning or late at night, right?
[00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:39.640] So, I think with everything, like with everything that you're doing, so like we're both saying the same thing from a different direction, like you have to count the cost.
[00:51:39.640 --> 00:51:50.280] And I think what I'm saying, the counter-counter narrative, is there are some things that you should sacrifice for almost any reason.
[00:51:50.280 --> 00:51:53.880] And that can be watching two or three hours of TV at night.
[00:51:53.880 --> 00:52:04.120] And listen, if the alternative, like that is if there is something on the other side of the equation for which you want to sacrifice, right?
[00:52:04.120 --> 00:52:16.120] So if you're looking at like, if you're looking at your, your time and you're saying, I, I have three hours every night where I don't really do anything, but there's this dream that I want.
[00:52:16.120 --> 00:52:18.680] And it's like, okay, that's easy to me.
[00:52:18.680 --> 00:52:20.680] That is a no-brainer to me.
[00:52:20.680 --> 00:52:33.160] And I see, I think I see, like, I see too many people saying that like they can't, like, they can't change their life because like they don't want to grind.
[00:52:33.160 --> 00:52:40.200] And I'm like, I am going to change my life, whatever it takes, like, no matter what it takes.
[00:52:40.200 --> 00:52:54.240] But the equation, the equation is flipped if it's like, I'm burned out and I'm like, I'm hanging on to the end of a knotted rope and it's like, I'm about to fall off unless I hang on with everything I have.
[00:52:54.240 --> 00:53:14.000] In which case, I would say, like, okay, if TV, whatever it is, if, you know, taking long walks at night, if that is more valuable, like you have to decide you're going to do that instead of working on your business, you're going to sacrifice working on your business because you're barely making it.
[00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:18.960] And that is a, like, that is a valid, those are valid numbers to run.
[00:53:18.960 --> 00:53:27.440] And so I think what we're both saying is like, you got to, you got to introspect and decide what are the numbers for you.
[00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:31.200] For me, I have told you 10 times what the numbers are.
[00:53:31.200 --> 00:53:32.960] I don't know what they are for anybody else.
[00:53:32.960 --> 00:53:36.640] And importantly, the numbers are going to change for me at some point.
[00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:40.160] I'm in this era right now.
[00:53:40.160 --> 00:53:41.920] This era is not going to last forever.
[00:53:41.920 --> 00:53:43.520] I'm going to run out of energy.
[00:53:43.520 --> 00:53:45.360] The kids are going to get older.
[00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:46.800] We're going to have more kids.
[00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:50.560] Something will change and I will have to sit down and redo the math.
[00:53:50.560 --> 00:53:52.960] But many people aren't doing the math.
[00:53:52.960 --> 00:53:54.800] They're just like, man, I wish my life would change.
[00:53:54.800 --> 00:53:55.920] Well, that's too bad.
[00:53:55.920 --> 00:53:57.120] I'm like, no.
[00:53:57.520 --> 00:53:58.080] This is it.
[00:53:58.080 --> 00:53:59.600] This is all you got, man.
[00:53:59.920 --> 00:54:10.720] There is another perspective on that, which is to clearly outline what you want and then to ask yourself, what is the best way to get there?
[00:54:11.040 --> 00:54:18.000] And I have had people back when I was doing more coaching, they would show up and I would say, what do you want?
[00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:23.120] And they would say, I want to become an individual influencer like you, Justin.
[00:54:23.120 --> 00:54:24.400] I want to have an audience.
[00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:26.640] I want to build a product and launch it.
[00:54:26.640 --> 00:54:29.120] And, you know, I want to build this up.
[00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:32.200] And I would say, okay, let's get started then.
[00:54:32.200 --> 00:54:33.960] And, but I say, but that's not an actual reason.
[00:54:33.960 --> 00:54:35.400] What's the actual reason why?
[00:54:35.400 --> 00:54:36.280] What do you?
[00:54:36.280 --> 00:54:41.800] Well, right now I'm making $80,000 a year and my family could really use $130,000.
[00:54:42.120 --> 00:54:42.600] Okay.
[00:54:43.240 --> 00:54:53.960] Once we actually got into it, it just became clear that for this person, the best path to getting to that dream is just to find a better job.
[00:54:54.280 --> 00:55:17.240] It's something that doesn't get, I think, mentioned enough, which is if you're in a shitty job, if you're not making enough money, and you don't have an audience, and you haven't started any of this, it is likely that the best use of your time and energy and focus is just getting a promotion or finding a better job.
[00:55:17.560 --> 00:55:23.080] Those things may give you, nothing's ever going to give you 100% of what you want.
[00:55:23.080 --> 00:55:25.800] You might get 60, 70, 80.
[00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:28.440] Maybe if you're lucky, you get 90% of what you want.
[00:55:28.440 --> 00:55:36.520] So sure, you go to a job, you have one of the downsides to getting a job is you have to ask permission to go on vacation, which I always hated.
[00:55:37.240 --> 00:55:46.440] But it may be in the math, that personal math, it may be a better decision for a listener to be thinking, you know what?
[00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:55.080] Actually, if this is what I want, I'm actually avoiding something I'm scared of, which is going out and finding another job.
[00:55:55.080 --> 00:56:04.600] And I'm replacing it with something that is actually way scarier, way harder, has a lower chance of success.
[00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:07.480] I'm going to try to do that instead.
[00:56:07.480 --> 00:56:21.280] And this is why the stair-step approach is such a nice idea: like, you can stair-step your way up to a nice remote job like Aaron has, and then that's compatible with some of your long-term dreams.
[00:56:21.520 --> 00:56:24.000] I mean, that's a best, those are the best employers.
[00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:25.520] Hey, Aaron, what is your long-term dream?
[00:56:25.760 --> 00:56:27.200] Oh, I want to do this, this, this.
[00:56:27.200 --> 00:56:31.280] Okay, well, we're compatible here on a long-term basis.
[00:56:31.600 --> 00:56:34.080] But I don't want people to think that that's not an option.
[00:56:34.080 --> 00:56:40.960] My guess is that for most folks, it is better for them to find a better job than to try to start a company.
[00:56:40.960 --> 00:56:51.120] Just because I've known tons of people who are amazing in all sorts of ways, have tons of skills, tons of, and they don't make it.
[00:56:51.120 --> 00:56:56.640] Making it in business is, it's just, there's no sure thing.
[00:56:56.640 --> 00:57:08.320] And so, if you're playing, if you're doing that math, I would consider saying, well, the first step, if I'm in a shitty job, is just to find a better job that gives me more freedom, more autonomy, more money, et cetera.
[00:57:08.320 --> 00:57:17.280] Yeah, if we were like, I think the reason I'm in this situation partially is because I'm extremely risk averse, right?
[00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:19.920] Like, I'm not going to quit my job.
[00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:26.240] I'm not going to, like, I'm not going to just be like, hey, family, I'm going to do my own thing.
[00:57:26.240 --> 00:57:31.600] Like, I hope that I have enough money next month so that you kids can go to school.
[00:57:31.600 --> 00:57:41.600] Like, I think there is definitely a way to work your way up to a position where you can then start to sacrifice other things.
[00:57:41.600 --> 00:57:43.680] But there, again, they're non-negotiables.
[00:57:43.680 --> 00:57:50.800] Like, I would love to be able to work on a business full-time, but that's just not, that's just not in the cards for me.
[00:57:50.800 --> 00:58:01.640] Listen, if we were going negative every month, like, if planet scale wasn't enough for us to live, the talk of like a side business would probably not be on the table for me.
[00:58:01.960 --> 00:58:08.280] It would be, Aaron, you got to cut your expenses or you got to get a better job because this is not working.
[00:58:08.600 --> 00:58:17.240] And so, yeah, I definitely don't want to paint the picture of like, I'm, you know, sacrificing everything and I'm this, like, I'm throwing the whole team on my back.
[00:58:17.240 --> 00:58:21.960] Like, no, we've got, like, we, we're not going negative every month.
[00:58:21.960 --> 00:58:26.280] And the things that I'm sacrificing don't really count to anybody except me.
[00:58:26.280 --> 00:58:38.600] And so that's where, that's where I'm like, yeah, if your job sucks and you're going negative every month and or you're going in physically to somewhere that is just like beating you down, get out of there.
[00:58:38.600 --> 00:58:41.080] Like, that is absolutely the best first step.
[00:58:41.080 --> 00:58:49.480] Yeah, this is the challenge is so many people do get into starting their own business because they things are really not going well.
[00:58:49.800 --> 00:58:52.600] And they're like, I got, I got to fix this.
[00:58:52.600 --> 00:58:54.440] And sometimes that can work out.
[00:58:54.440 --> 00:58:57.800] But the way I've said it before is it's good to be hungry.
[00:58:57.800 --> 00:58:59.560] It's not good to be desperate.
[00:58:59.560 --> 00:59:11.400] In the hungry desperation scale, desperation is not a good time to be building anything because you're going to be in this vicious cycle.
[00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:17.400] And it's actually great having you on the call today because it's just clear.
[00:59:17.400 --> 00:59:18.760] You seem calm.
[00:59:18.760 --> 00:59:37.000] You seem like you're hungry, but there is a foundation of calm that if I was going to review a lot of these cases I'm thinking about from my inbox and from people I've coached and things, the times where it didn't work out was they were, they were in that desperation mode.
[00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:39.080] They were too close to the metal.
[00:59:39.080 --> 00:59:41.480] They were grinding gears.
[00:59:41.480 --> 00:59:47.200] And when you're in that kind of spiral, nothing is going well.
[00:59:47.200 --> 00:59:48.640] All you're doing is putting out fires.
[00:59:48.640 --> 00:59:50.000] You're putting out fires with your spouse.
[00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:52.000] You're putting out fires with the day job.
[00:59:52.560 --> 00:59:55.520] So you got to simplify as much as you can.
[00:59:55.520 --> 01:00:00.880] And if you're in a situation like that, probably the best way for you to improve your life is to try to get a better job.
[01:00:01.040 --> 01:00:07.200] Nice thing about getting a better job is a lot of the principles that apply to business also apply to that.
[01:00:07.200 --> 01:00:10.560] You're trying to give people something they want.
[01:00:10.560 --> 01:00:12.880] You're trying to solve the boss's problems.
[01:00:12.880 --> 01:00:18.960] You're trying to make yourself the most attractive candidate.
[01:00:19.760 --> 01:00:21.680] And these are all things that apply in business.
[01:00:21.680 --> 01:00:29.120] Business is about when you have a product, you're trying to make your product the most attractive candidate for anybody who's looking for a product like that.
[01:00:29.120 --> 01:00:32.560] And you can take some of those principles away with you.
[01:00:32.720 --> 01:00:34.240] We've got an hour.
[01:00:34.240 --> 01:00:36.240] Is there anything else you'd like to say?
[01:00:37.120 --> 01:00:39.680] Thanks for letting me come on and take the other side.
[01:00:39.680 --> 01:00:41.520] I feel like this was really valuable.
[01:00:43.040 --> 01:00:44.800] Hopefully for other people as well.
[01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:53.840] I think I would synthesize the whole thing as like, you know, I've told Colleen this, my business partner, a number of times, like the only thing you got to figure out is what do you want?
[01:00:53.840 --> 01:00:57.520] And unfortunately, that's the hardest thing in the world to figure out.
[01:00:57.520 --> 01:00:59.840] Like, what do you want?
[01:00:59.840 --> 01:01:07.200] And I think for me in the past couple of years, I think I've started to figure out what I want.
[01:01:07.200 --> 01:01:13.840] And I am not, like we just talked about, I'm not extremely comfortable with risk.
[01:01:13.840 --> 01:01:30.760] I'm calm, but boy, am I hungry, not because we're running out of money, but because there's some kind of like thing inside of me that has to prove to like my childhood self and the way that I came up and part of me, like, I am going to make it.
[01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:40.600] And like that, like coupled with I have a job and I can provide for my family so far seems like infinite energy.
[01:01:40.600 --> 01:01:44.680] And I know that it will run out at some point, but I'm not willing.
[01:01:44.680 --> 01:01:51.720] I'm not willing to watch these dreams die because I'm too sleepy or I'm watching TV at night or something.
[01:01:51.720 --> 01:02:03.800] And so like, you got to run the sacrifice equation on your own side and figure out what are you willing to sacrifice and for what are you sacrificing and figure out like, I don't know, man, which one's stronger?
[01:02:03.800 --> 01:02:05.560] And then you just run it from there.
[01:02:05.560 --> 01:02:07.160] Don't, don't be afraid to commit.
[01:02:07.160 --> 01:02:09.320] Do not be afraid to commit to it.
[01:02:09.320 --> 01:02:09.800] Yes.
[01:02:09.800 --> 01:02:10.360] Yeah.
[01:02:10.680 --> 01:02:13.000] I mean, we could keep going, I'm sure.
[01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:14.840] But I'm cheering for you.
[01:02:15.880 --> 01:02:16.520] Thanks.
[01:02:16.520 --> 01:02:27.880] That hunger you have and that idea of like, I got this dream and I just got to go after it is so, I identify with that so much.
[01:02:27.880 --> 01:02:35.240] And then having that line of, I have this dream, but I'm not willing to cross this line is also important.
[01:02:35.560 --> 01:02:37.800] And we heard, I heard that from you too.
[01:02:37.800 --> 01:02:39.240] So thanks so much, man.
[01:02:39.240 --> 01:02:39.880] This was great.
[01:02:40.200 --> 01:02:42.920] I'm sure folks will have lots of feedback on this.
[01:02:43.320 --> 01:02:47.480] What's a good way for people to reach out to you or say, hey, I'm listening right now?
[01:02:47.480 --> 01:02:47.880] Yeah.
[01:02:48.120 --> 01:02:53.240] I'm on Twitter basically all the time, even when I shouldn't be at Aaron D.
[01:02:53.320 --> 01:02:55.800] Francis, Aaron with two A's, Aaron D.
[01:02:55.800 --> 01:02:56.760] Francis.
[01:02:57.560 --> 01:03:01.480] The course that we talked about is at planetscale.com slash courses.
[01:03:01.480 --> 01:03:09.080] And then the product that my partner and I are working on is we are in the middle of a pivot because we haven't found product market fit.
[01:03:09.080 --> 01:03:11.160] So that's at helloquery.com.
[01:03:11.160 --> 01:03:16.480] And we're building a flexible way for non-technical users to get access to their database.
[01:03:16.480 --> 01:03:17.920] So hello query.
[01:03:17.920 --> 01:03:18.880] Hello query.
[01:03:14.760 --> 01:03:21.280] This is as of like yesterday, totally unannounced.
[01:03:21.440 --> 01:03:23.360] So breaking news here first.
[01:03:23.360 --> 01:03:24.880] So I say query.
[01:03:24.880 --> 01:03:25.520] What did you say?
[01:03:25.520 --> 01:03:26.080] Query.
[01:03:26.080 --> 01:03:26.640] Query.
[01:03:26.640 --> 01:03:27.280] Query.
[01:03:27.280 --> 01:03:28.480] I say query.
[01:03:28.800 --> 01:03:29.920] Interesting.
[01:03:30.880 --> 01:03:32.240] We'll have to talk about this offline.
[01:03:32.240 --> 01:03:33.600] That's the first time I've heard that one.
[01:03:33.600 --> 01:03:33.840] Yeah.
[01:03:33.840 --> 01:03:38.160] So helloquery.com, I guess, if you're from Canada.
[01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:41.280] Don't take mine as Canadian pronunciation.
[01:03:41.280 --> 01:03:45.120] That's a recurring bit on the show as I pronounce things weird.
[01:03:45.120 --> 01:03:50.640] Would also love to hear, if you're listening, I would love to hear from spouses.
[01:03:50.640 --> 01:03:57.200] And if you are a spouse of someone building a business, yeah, it'd be great to have you reach out.
[01:03:57.200 --> 01:04:00.160] You can email me, justin at transistor.fm.
[01:04:00.160 --> 01:04:03.600] I'm on Twitter, the letter M, the letter I, Justin.
[01:04:03.600 --> 01:04:05.120] We have a live chat on Transistor.
[01:04:05.120 --> 01:04:07.600] You can even put comments in there.
[01:04:07.600 --> 01:04:21.840] But I'm hoping this will be the beginning of an expanded, nuanced discussion about how to do all of this while you're being a parent and trying to live a good life.
[01:04:22.480 --> 01:04:23.440] Family.
[01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:24.720] So thanks again, everybody.
[01:04:24.720 --> 01:04:27.120] And yeah, I hope to hear from you soon.
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