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[00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:03.120] This podcast is hosted by Transistor.fm.
[00:00:23.920 --> 00:00:25.360] I've heard the intro many times.
[00:00:25.360 --> 00:00:26.320] I should know if I know.
[00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:27.600] I'm not John or Justin.
[00:00:27.600 --> 00:00:37.680] I'm Chris, the podcast editor, and just here to tell you that you're back for part two of John and Justin's answer all the questions about their business.
[00:00:37.680 --> 00:00:38.880] Transistor.fm.
[00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:44.160] I won't waste any more of your time with my rambling and babbling, and let's just get right into the questions.
[00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:53.680] Corey Haynes, another great transistor customer, says, when did you start paying yourself what you actually wanted to make or what you set out to make?
[00:00:53.680 --> 00:00:54.720] I think he's saying.
[00:00:56.160 --> 00:01:00.720] That was probably 2020, I'm guessing.
[00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:01.520] Probably.
[00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:02.640] I don't know what your answer would be.
[00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:04.480] I mean, we had stages of this.
[00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:11.600] And I think when we started, we said kind of baseline for us was to each make $100,000 a year.
[00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:20.640] But the actual goal for me personally was probably like, I would like to be making at least $250,000 a year.
[00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:25.760] And yeah, I can't remember when we hit that, but I don't either.
[00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:28.800] It was probably sometime in 2020.
[00:01:28.800 --> 00:01:31.200] Yeah, I think it was sometime in 2020.
[00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:35.200] Nathan Berry says, so impressed with what you've done in four years.
[00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:36.320] Thanks, Nathan.
[00:01:36.320 --> 00:01:37.040] That's great.
[00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:40.800] Nathan Berry from ConvertKit, another transistor customer.
[00:01:41.120 --> 00:01:46.240] Brian Ray says, a lot of success stories aren't helpful because of survivorship bias.
[00:01:46.240 --> 00:01:49.600] And a lot of answers about success start with, it depends.
[00:01:49.920 --> 00:02:02.840] But after these years, as you've met more and more bootstrappers who have found success, are there a few pieces of advice that you truly believe stand up to the harshest of critiques and are more likely to apply broadly to a wide audience?
[00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:04.840] Thoughts, John?
[00:02:05.160 --> 00:02:05.640] I don't know.
[00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:10.440] I'm not really in touch with the bootstrapping community that much, to be honest.
[00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:13.240] I mean, this is my thing.
[00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:14.520] I just love this part.
[00:02:17.720 --> 00:02:34.520] Choose a good market, choose a good category is, and within that advice is choose a category you know, you have some sort of expertise in, you have, you understand the customer, you hopefully know a bunch of those customers.
[00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:38.680] There's enough momentum in that market to give you the growth that you want.
[00:02:39.320 --> 00:02:44.120] You, you know, that so much depends on the market.
[00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:52.840] And then really, it's everything else we've said, which is the life that you cultivate up to that point is really going to make a big difference.
[00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:57.000] The people you meet, the skills you build, the experiences you have.
[00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:02.040] You know, John has become very good at building product.
[00:03:02.040 --> 00:03:11.480] And it's because, you know, I didn't have to walk with him all through all those years where you were just working freelance and then working for other companies.
[00:03:11.480 --> 00:03:17.640] You know, like they got to, you, you got to train yourself through all those times.
[00:03:17.640 --> 00:03:18.280] Yeah.
[00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:20.440] And then I just got this current version of you.
[00:03:20.440 --> 00:03:22.280] It's pretty good.
[00:03:22.280 --> 00:03:23.960] I knew what I didn't like working on.
[00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:25.400] I figured that out.
[00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:27.800] I knew what type kind of people I didn't like working with.
[00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:35.720] Whatever age you are, whatever stage of life you're in, make these micro investments in yourself as you go along.
[00:03:35.720 --> 00:03:42.200] And it's those things that are going to help you when it's time to actually build a company.
[00:03:42.200 --> 00:03:53.360] So get out and meet some people, go to events, go build some skills, build some things and put them out in public, go work in a bunch of industries.
[00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:53.680] Yeah.
[00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:55.440] I would say all of those things help.
[00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:59.040] Don't, yeah, don't do things you don't necessarily want to do.
[00:03:59.040 --> 00:04:03.920] Like, don't become a manager if you don't want to, if you're sort of just like forced into it.
[00:04:03.920 --> 00:04:06.240] Like, if you don't want to be a manager, then don't be a manager.
[00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:07.440] Like, it's not for everyone.
[00:04:07.440 --> 00:04:07.840] Yeah.
[00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:17.680] If you want to just build things and code and be, you know, work your way up that sort of career path instead of becoming a manager because that's what you think you're supposed to do.
[00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:19.520] Like, don't just try to avoid that.
[00:04:19.520 --> 00:04:20.080] Yes.
[00:04:20.080 --> 00:04:20.640] Yeah.
[00:04:20.640 --> 00:04:26.800] Business ideas are drawn from the experience of our lives and the experience of the people we collaborate with.
[00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:40.640] This is not a critique or a, I'm not trying to disparage anybody, but if you're looking at your life and you're feeling like, oh, I just don't have any good ideas for a business or good, I can't see any good opportunities.
[00:04:40.640 --> 00:04:55.680] The answer is just at whatever age you are, you just need to go out and have more experiences and shake things up a bit, get curious, go to a conference that you're interested in, but you would have normally not gone to.
[00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:58.160] Go take a class.
[00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:00.160] These are all of the things.
[00:05:00.400 --> 00:05:04.000] You once told me a story about you going and working with a baker.
[00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:04.560] Yep.
[00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:07.680] Like you were just interested in baking bread.
[00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:08.160] Yeah.
[00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:10.480] And you just think the story there.
[00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:13.680] I'm trying to even think how I got into bread.
[00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:14.080] I don't know.
[00:05:14.080 --> 00:05:15.920] I got interested in bread for some reason.
[00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:17.440] Like this was before the whole pandemic.
[00:05:17.440 --> 00:05:19.520] Like everyone's bacon sourdough.
[00:05:19.520 --> 00:05:23.760] I honestly don't remember why I got into it or what led me there, but I did.
[00:05:23.760 --> 00:05:25.280] And I got super interested in it.
[00:05:25.280 --> 00:05:28.000] And I was like, I would like to start making bread.
[00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:28.480] Yeah.
[00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:36.200] And the more I got into it, I was like, oh, I found all these, I don't know, blogs and like YouTube things about bread.
[00:05:37.880 --> 00:05:40.200] I tried to make some and it was a disaster.
[00:05:40.200 --> 00:05:51.320] And then I just, out of the blue, I think I saw a chef that runs a restaurant group in Chicago who also run, who also owns the bakery.
[00:05:51.640 --> 00:05:59.720] He posted something online about like, oh, we're hiring bakers at Public and Quality Breads, which is in Chicago.
[00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:05.800] And so I emailed the guy, the head baker, and it's a young guy named Greg.
[00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:11.960] And I was like, hey, can I, I'm like, I'm just interested in like learning how to make bread.
[00:06:11.960 --> 00:06:15.160] And can I just like come in and work for free?
[00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:16.120] He's like, oh, yeah.
[00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:18.520] Like, that's a thing, you know, that's a thing you do in the restaurant industry.
[00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:23.960] You can go stage and like just show up and they'll let you work for freak and they'll teach you stuff.
[00:06:23.960 --> 00:06:24.600] Yeah.
[00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:29.000] And he's like, yeah, come here at a Saturday, eight in the morning.
[00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:30.680] And I was like, all right.
[00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:32.840] And I thought I was just going to go there to like talk to him.
[00:06:32.840 --> 00:06:38.280] And he's like, all right, so there's an apron in the basement and we're going to get to work.
[00:06:38.280 --> 00:06:39.320] And I'm like, what?
[00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:41.160] I like hadn't eaten that day.
[00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:45.000] And I just showed up and worked like an entire eight-hour day with this guy.
[00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:48.440] I was starving and not ready for this at all.
[00:06:48.440 --> 00:06:49.480] And then I did it.
[00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:52.280] I did it once a weekend for a couple months and it was great.
[00:06:52.280 --> 00:06:53.640] I just love that story.
[00:06:53.640 --> 00:06:54.200] It was great.
[00:06:54.200 --> 00:06:55.800] I mean, I learned a ton.
[00:06:55.800 --> 00:06:57.080] Like, I don't, you know, you just.
[00:06:57.400 --> 00:07:05.320] But what I love about that story is that it shows you, it's a perfect example of how you can cultivate these types of experiences.
[00:07:05.640 --> 00:07:32.080] Like, just to be curious, to reach out, to take a risk, to, and this is all while you're working full-time as a software developer, yeah, yeah, and and so you just did this on the side, and you now have a much greater understanding of how to make good bread, but you also understand the restaurant industry, you've got insights about the restaurant industry, you know some people in the restaurant industry now.
[00:07:32.080 --> 00:07:39.600] That's how you cultivate this life that can then produce opportunities is by kind of doing things like that.
[00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:40.880] Yeah, exactly.
[00:07:40.880 --> 00:07:42.640] Yeah, I would encourage anyone to do it.
[00:07:42.640 --> 00:07:48.000] I mean, with anything, really, it doesn't have to be a restaurant or bread, or probably there's probably tons of ways you could do that.
[00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:49.360] Yeah, totally.
[00:07:49.360 --> 00:08:06.880] Yeah, I've just like another trick I've done is I've signed up for a meetup, like I've gone onto meetup.com or whatever, and signed up for search for cheap flights to different cities and then just chosen a meetup in another city that I wanted to go to.
[00:08:07.520 --> 00:08:15.520] And the great thing about that is you show up at this meetup group where there's a group of people already who know each other and they're like, Who are you?
[00:08:15.520 --> 00:08:16.160] Where are you from?
[00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:20.160] And you're like, Well, I flew in from Canada to come to this thing.
[00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:21.600] And they're like, What?
[00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:26.560] Like, and you know, this is like I did this in Vegas one time, and the tickets were cheap.
[00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:30.000] It was like, whatever, $95 flight to Vegas.
[00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:39.120] But I got this experience of meeting all these people and connecting with people on a topic I didn't know about.
[00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:40.560] And it was cool.
[00:08:40.560 --> 00:08:41.120] It was really cool.
[00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:46.640] And that's why, yeah, I used to go to a lot of design conferences.
[00:08:46.640 --> 00:08:47.440] Yes.
[00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:48.480] Because I was interested.
[00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:52.160] I was, you know, mostly a developer, but like I was really interested in design.
[00:08:52.160 --> 00:08:56.160] And I was going to like, you know, like graphic design conferences.
[00:08:56.160 --> 00:08:57.120] Because they were fascinating.
[00:08:57.120 --> 00:08:59.040] I'd meet like the most amazing people.
[00:08:59.040 --> 00:08:59.520] Yes.
[00:08:59.520 --> 00:09:01.720] And they were like, oh, you're a developer and you're here.
[00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:03.800] I'm like, yeah, it's like super interesting.
[00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:08.040] And like, you're all probably more fun to hang out with than most of the other people at other conferences.
[00:09:08.040 --> 00:09:09.720] And like, yeah.
[00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:18.520] You know, you just like you absorb yourself and surround yourself in these communities and you just, you just absorb information.
[00:09:18.520 --> 00:09:27.800] And like you're probably going to get better at design, even if that's not your main, your main role, like just by being around it.
[00:09:27.800 --> 00:09:28.280] Yeah.
[00:09:28.520 --> 00:09:44.440] This characteristic actually is one characteristic I found with successful founders is people who cultivate this kind of life and curiosity often do eventually start companies that work out.
[00:09:44.680 --> 00:09:49.000] It's not a guarantee, but Kyle Fox is very similar.
[00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:51.240] And his trick was also he would start events.
[00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:57.400] So he got really, he's a software developer, but he got really into type and typefaces.
[00:09:57.400 --> 00:10:02.040] And so him and a friend just started a conference all about type.
[00:10:02.040 --> 00:10:06.040] And, you know, what a great way to meet people that way.
[00:10:06.040 --> 00:10:13.320] You know, all of a sudden he's able to bring in the world's best typeface designers to one place and meet them.
[00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:21.000] And, you know, and it was, he was able to learn all this stuff about, you know, type and typefaces just from running these events.
[00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:29.640] I mean, ultimately, that's why I ended up at XOXO and met you is because it seemed like a super interesting place to go with interesting people.
[00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:30.600] Yeah.
[00:10:30.640 --> 00:10:31.480] Yeah, yeah.
[00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:35.880] And I wasn't, I wasn't always the most outgoing extroverted person.
[00:10:35.880 --> 00:10:39.000] I'm still not, but like, it's something you can work on.
[00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:39.560] Yeah.
[00:10:39.560 --> 00:10:40.040] Yeah.
[00:10:40.040 --> 00:10:50.000] And you can practice even just going to local meetups and just, yeah, meeting people, taking a risk, putting yourself out there.
[00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:53.440] I mean, for a lot of people, meeting people is meeting new people is terrifying.
[00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:53.920] Yes.
[00:10:53.920 --> 00:10:57.120] So what's your advice for people who find that terrifying?
[00:10:57.280 --> 00:10:58.800] You just got to try it.
[00:10:58.800 --> 00:11:00.880] Just like go with say hi.
[00:11:00.880 --> 00:11:02.320] You know, like, I don't know.
[00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:03.360] Yeah, just say hi.
[00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:06.160] Try to talk about something interesting.
[00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:14.400] It doesn't even have to be about like the topic that, you know, wherever you're at is about, but like, you know, find some common thread to talk about.
[00:11:14.800 --> 00:11:15.200] Yeah.
[00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:18.240] And I think it also helps to have a good wingman or a wing person.
[00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:21.680] Like Chase Reeves introduced me to so many people.
[00:11:21.680 --> 00:11:22.160] Yeah.
[00:11:22.160 --> 00:11:28.080] And, you know, that having that person there.
[00:11:28.640 --> 00:11:34.960] And honestly, I met him in a way that was not introverted, but he read one of my articles.
[00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:38.800] It wasn't like, you know, we'd met in the other way.
[00:11:38.800 --> 00:11:40.400] He read one of my articles and reached out.
[00:11:40.400 --> 00:11:43.040] So there's all sorts of ways you can create these connections.
[00:11:43.040 --> 00:11:47.520] Let's do a few more and we'll get Chris to split these up however he'd like.
[00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:52.800] Lars Hubak says, would love to hear about some of the technical sides of developing the product.
[00:11:52.800 --> 00:11:54.400] How did you decide on the tech stack?
[00:11:54.400 --> 00:11:56.320] Did you develop everything yourselves?
[00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:57.680] How about hosting and billing?
[00:11:57.680 --> 00:12:00.480] Did you outsource some of the work, design, UI?
[00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:02.320] And if yes, how did you do it?
[00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:04.400] How did you prioritize features?
[00:12:04.400 --> 00:12:05.440] That's a lot.
[00:12:06.560 --> 00:12:10.240] So bit by bit, how did you choose the tech stack?
[00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:17.280] I chose Ruby on Rails because that's what I knew and that's what I was comfortable with and I knew I could be productive in it.
[00:12:17.280 --> 00:12:29.680] I mean, at the time I started it, there's certainly like the trend was moving towards like building React front ends against an API, and it just didn't interest me.
[00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:40.280] It would have taken too long for me to learn it, and I probably would have not enjoyed it because I just like the way Rails is put together.
[00:12:41.800 --> 00:12:43.240] That's how I chose it.
[00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:44.760] I think it was a good choice.
[00:12:44.760 --> 00:12:46.200] I mean, it could have been Laravel.
[00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:50.360] I'd have known PHP better, but went with Rails.
[00:12:50.440 --> 00:13:00.440] Yeah, I think any full stack web framework, Laravel, Django, Rails, it's all fine.
[00:13:01.640 --> 00:13:08.840] I still think those old web frameworks are still amazing choices for building indie SAS.
[00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:10.680] They're just so good.
[00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:13.240] Did we develop everything ourselves?
[00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:16.120] I mean, yes and no.
[00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:26.120] Like, you know, the app is obviously, it's custom built, but within that, we're using all sorts of open source libraries that are helping out.
[00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:33.960] We're, you know, using Tailwind CSS for, you know, helping build out the design.
[00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:35.640] We used to use something else.
[00:13:35.640 --> 00:13:37.240] I didn't want to custom-build CSS.
[00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:41.640] I just wanted to be able to build an interface quickly that looks pretty good.
[00:13:41.640 --> 00:13:47.320] And we hired, we do, we've hired people at different times to contractors.
[00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:48.440] I think that's been a good way.
[00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:54.920] Like the logo and the transistor logo and stuff is somebody you hired to build.
[00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:55.800] The website has been.
[00:13:56.120 --> 00:13:59.800] You've hired people to help out with the actual marketing website.
[00:13:59.800 --> 00:14:00.120] Yeah.
[00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:07.080] And even when I decided to rebuild the website myself, I definitely got a lot of help.
[00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:12.120] Like it was me, but I was building it in public and I was like constant.
[00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:20.640] I mean, the transistor website probably has 30 people that helped with different things over the span of building it.
[00:14:20.880 --> 00:14:25.040] So there's lots of ways to get other people to help.
[00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:27.760] And how did we prioritize features?
[00:14:27.760 --> 00:14:33.680] We've almost always prioritized features based on our sense of what customers want.
[00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:38.640] And that's not always like what they tell us in chat.
[00:14:39.040 --> 00:14:41.760] It's observing people and saying, you know what?
[00:14:41.760 --> 00:14:51.280] I think this is something that customers actually want in terms of, I mean, the badges is actually a great example.
[00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:54.080] Nobody said, told us they wanted badges.
[00:14:54.080 --> 00:15:02.080] We just saw them constantly tweeting their stats, like, hey, my podcast just hit 1,000 downloads.
[00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:04.400] And so we were like, people want this.
[00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:08.480] And we were able to prioritize that.
[00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:12.000] We also, I mean, prioritizing features, we have a small team.
[00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:14.160] We know we're not going to be able to build everything.
[00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:20.480] We discuss a lot of ideas, but most of them just go into a document and just stay there.
[00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:23.520] And yeah, there's a lot of stuff that's just forgotten about.
[00:15:23.520 --> 00:15:27.600] But if it comes back up, it's a good indication that it's probably something we want to build.
[00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:34.480] And I think we also prioritize like within the team, like what do you, what do you think is going to be fun for you to work on?
[00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:35.680] Like, what are you excited about?
[00:15:35.680 --> 00:15:39.440] And then that can help bubble things up to the top of the list.
[00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:39.600] Yeah.
[00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:54.240] And you can really, that's the fun thing about being at this stage is you can really do that when you're once you've hit a certain amount of revenue and margin, you can kind of prioritize things that are more fun, which you really do need.
[00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:54.720] Yeah.
[00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:56.000] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:00.760] David Thompson does the adage, if you're not embarrassed by the first version, you shipped too late still hold.
[00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:08.520] I think the best response to this is Jason Cohen's simple, lovable product article.
[00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:14.920] I will try to post that in the show notes.
[00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:19.160] Yeah, so he goes, he has this article called I Hate MVPs.
[00:16:19.160 --> 00:16:26.840] So do your customers make it SLC instead, which is simple, lovable, and complete.
[00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:29.720] Our first version of Transistor had those elements.
[00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:31.160] It was simple.
[00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:32.760] It was lovable.
[00:16:32.760 --> 00:16:42.600] Like we had elements of it that made it, even like from the beginning, more attractive than a lot of our customers, better designed, more personable.
[00:16:43.160 --> 00:16:45.000] It didn't work on mobile phones, though, at all.
[00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:46.760] Like the design did not work.
[00:16:46.760 --> 00:16:47.400] That's right.
[00:16:47.400 --> 00:16:56.520] So there were things that didn't work at the beginning, but we didn't need mobile for 99% of the use cases, right?
[00:16:56.520 --> 00:16:57.080] Yeah.
[00:16:57.080 --> 00:17:08.360] And it was complete in that we could go to people who had a podcast somewhere else and say, hey, I know you're on Libsyn, or I know you're on BuzzSprout, or I know you're on Simplecast or whatever.
[00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:11.080] Would you switch to Transistor?
[00:17:11.080 --> 00:17:18.360] And they were able to look at our features when we demoed it and say, oh, yeah, this has got like 90% of what I need.
[00:17:18.360 --> 00:17:20.760] And they signed up.
[00:17:20.760 --> 00:17:24.120] So simple, lovable, complete.
[00:17:24.120 --> 00:17:27.720] That is better than the MVP.
[00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:32.600] I don't think you want to be embarrassed by the first version that you put into customers' hands.
[00:17:32.600 --> 00:17:33.640] You want to feel good about it.
[00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:38.680] You want to feel like, yeah, this is actually worth switching to, you know?
[00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:48.560] And if you can't pull that off, then either collaborate with people that allow you to pull that off or work on your own skills or whatever.
[00:17:48.800 --> 00:17:55.680] But yeah, you want the first version to feel good, to be simple, lovable, complete.
[00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:58.400] How did you decide on pricing?
[00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:00.640] We've done a number of episodes on that.
[00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:06.160] Really, we talked to a lot of people and we surveyed our category.
[00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:15.840] So if you go back through the podcast, you can see we talked to Nathan Berry, Rob Walling, Patrick Campbell, Profit Well.
[00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:22.400] We had an episode where we debated, I debated pricing with Ben Ornstein and Jordan Gall, I believe.
[00:18:23.040 --> 00:18:28.080] And then we also looked at our category and just what people are charging.
[00:18:28.080 --> 00:18:32.800] And we looked for an opportunity where we could stand out from the competition.
[00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:39.280] And that's where we came up with this idea of unlimited podcasts for one price.
[00:18:39.280 --> 00:18:47.200] So if you had three shows on Simplecast, you could switch to transistor, all three shows to transistor, and save money.
[00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:55.200] And that was our kind of our first way of kind of pulling people saying, hey, why would I switch to transistor?
[00:18:55.200 --> 00:19:01.200] Well, if you have more than two or three shows, it's a no-brainer because you're going to save money.
[00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:03.360] And that's not initially how we started either.
[00:19:03.360 --> 00:19:11.440] I mean, when we had our beta tester user group, they were charged per podcast.
[00:19:11.520 --> 00:19:14.080] They were charged differently, but with a huge discount.
[00:19:14.080 --> 00:19:14.640] Yeah.
[00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:25.440] And then before we launched, I don't know when we decided, but I'm thankful we switched pricing structures for a number of reasons.
[00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:27.040] But yeah, we switched.
[00:19:27.040 --> 00:19:38.440] We just like decided to do it based on downloads and features instead of per podcast, which I think worked out really well in our favor.
[00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:38.920] Yeah.
[00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:39.160] Yeah.
[00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:58.440] And it's worth going back to those episodes because a lot of that is pricing theory that we got from all those people we talked to, but specifically Patrick Campbell, where he recommended that we take your main kind of cost structure in your business.
[00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:05.000] So for us, it was bandwidth and hosting and all those things, but mostly bandwidth, and charge based on that.
[00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:15.080] That's why it makes sense to charge in Slack, it makes sense to charge per seat because the more people you have, the more your costs go up as the software provider.
[00:20:15.080 --> 00:20:21.720] And for email, it's like the more emails you send, the more it costs you as an email service provider.
[00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:26.680] For us, the more downloads that you do, the more it costs us as a service provider.
[00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:34.760] So having that as our pricing, what does Patrick call it?
[00:20:34.760 --> 00:20:37.000] It's like your value metric.
[00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:43.160] So make your value metric match up with your main cost.
[00:20:43.800 --> 00:20:49.720] And it doesn't always have to match up with your main cost, but you have to figure out a value metric that makes sense for your business and your category.
[00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:52.520] And yeah, downloads just work really well for us.
[00:20:52.520 --> 00:20:57.160] And then this idea of like, well, and you can start as many shows as you want.
[00:20:57.160 --> 00:21:03.720] So previously, for a lot of our competitors, the value metric was every time you start a new show, you got to pay us again.
[00:21:04.040 --> 00:21:09.720] And we said, no, let's let people start as many shows as they want and then pay us based on usage.
[00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:13.000] Pay us based on how many listens or downloads do you get.
[00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:13.960] Super good.
[00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:15.840] All right, we're going to finish up with a few more.
[00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:18.720] Corey asks us about hiring.
[00:21:19.040 --> 00:21:23.040] How would you have hired or found your employees if you had no following?
[00:21:23.280 --> 00:21:26.560] What was your selection process for your first employees?
[00:21:27.120 --> 00:21:32.640] How to hire and work with ambitious people and grow a team while providing incentives to stay in the company?
[00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:35.680] Do I hire young and experienced and train them?
[00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:48.720] So I think what I'll say, we've already talked about this, but I've been hiring people since I probably since 2005 or something in previous jobs.
[00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:57.280] The best hires I've made almost every single time are people that I already had a relationship with, people I already knew.
[00:21:57.280 --> 00:22:05.600] And so maybe that won't doesn't work for every company and every category, but for us, that's really worked out well.
[00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:06.720] Hey?
[00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:07.440] Yep.
[00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:08.000] Yeah.
[00:22:09.760 --> 00:22:10.880] I was thinking.
[00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:18.400] I mean, the question itself is kind of tough to answer because we don't have like experienced growing teams, like huge teams.
[00:22:19.360 --> 00:22:19.920] Yeah.
[00:22:20.080 --> 00:22:30.320] But yeah, I would say hire people you know and you can work well with, hire experienced people at first.
[00:22:30.320 --> 00:22:36.880] I mean, we haven't hired anyone junior really, but I think that would be tough for a small company like us.
[00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:51.280] Like, we wanted to hire Jason as a developer because he just has like a ton of experience in so many different areas and has, you know, seen the problems that can come up and knows how to fix things, knows how to troubleshoot.
[00:22:51.280 --> 00:22:52.400] And same with Helen.
[00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:58.000] We hired her, but she'd previously been with MakerPad, ConvertKit.
[00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:11.400] Like she had all, and also doing, I think she was in the, I can't remember who was healthcare industry doing customer success, but she had all of this experience so much better.
[00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:11.880] Yeah.
[00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:13.960] Like there's just no training you need to do.
[00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:22.680] They can literally hit the ground running and be high value contributors almost right away.
[00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:23.160] Yeah.
[00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:30.760] I would say as far as like trying to keep employees around, I mean, as we record this, today is Justin's one-year anniversary.
[00:23:30.760 --> 00:23:31.720] Jason's.
[00:23:32.360 --> 00:23:34.520] Jason's one-year anniversary today.
[00:23:34.840 --> 00:23:37.080] And Helen's been with us for what, like a year and a half.
[00:23:37.080 --> 00:23:38.280] I mean, full-time.
[00:23:38.280 --> 00:23:38.840] Yeah.
[00:23:39.320 --> 00:23:44.200] I mean, we've been generous with like time off and schedules and flexible working.
[00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:51.640] You know, we were really generous last year with like profit sharing bonuses, raises.
[00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:54.440] I think have been pretty good.
[00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:54.920] Yeah.
[00:23:55.640 --> 00:24:16.040] I think generally the key is just to like, you know, recognize when your employees are maybe not enjoying themselves or hope that they reach out to you or just ask how they're doing, what maybe what can change and kind of allow them to like build their workday around their lives instead of the other way around.
[00:24:16.760 --> 00:24:26.680] Yeah, there's a lot of times actually where you and I make decisions based on how we were treated as employees.
[00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:32.680] So like it always bugged me that at Christmas time I never got a bonus.
[00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:38.440] And we've done, so typically we've done bigger bonuses at the end of the year.
[00:24:39.320 --> 00:24:45.000] And it just also has this benefit of being like around Christmas time.
[00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:48.000] And it's just like nice.
[00:24:48.320 --> 00:24:49.760] And it was something that bugged me.
[00:24:49.760 --> 00:24:56.080] It was like a reason I wanted to leave previous companies because I was like, they never give me any bonuses.
[00:24:56.080 --> 00:24:58.480] Like, yeah, I never got any.
[00:24:58.480 --> 00:24:59.760] I knew how well they were doing.
[00:24:59.760 --> 00:25:08.240] And it's why we're considering how can we, you know, share some of the ownership with our employees, either through stock options or something like that.
[00:25:09.280 --> 00:25:22.960] So mining your own experience as an employee and just realizing like, what were the things that made me feel like, ah, I another thing that made me want to leave was I really wanted to work remotely and have flexibility.
[00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:25.520] And that wasn't allowed at a lot of companies.
[00:25:25.520 --> 00:25:28.800] So I kind of wanted to leave right away.
[00:25:29.040 --> 00:25:47.120] I think another thing that's been interesting is if people have any sort of you can't always like provide for this, but if people, for example, want to pay off, they have a goal or a pressure to pay off student loans, let's say.
[00:25:47.120 --> 00:25:54.880] If that's something they want to do and working for you isn't helping them get to that goal, they're always going to be looking for something else.
[00:25:55.680 --> 00:26:00.640] They're always going to be looking for to do a side hustle or, you know, go and work another job.
[00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:07.040] Or if another job comes along that pays better and gets them closer to that goal, they're going to do that.
[00:26:07.040 --> 00:26:18.400] If they have a goal to move to a different country and work remotely, but you only have a local office, they're going to keep trying to get to that goal.
[00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:26.160] And so, one way of keeping people, and by the way, I don't know if John and I are awesome at this yet either.
[00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:34.840] Like, we're, you know, we're trying to stay in touch with Helen and Jason and, you know, ask them what they're aiming for or whatever.
[00:26:36.120 --> 00:26:50.040] But I think that is part of the key: just figuring out what are some of their longings, what are some of the things they're working on, what are some of the things that are making them restless.
[00:26:50.360 --> 00:26:57.400] You know, and you know, John and I know what made us restless when we were employees.
[00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:13.000] So, yeah, I think that's worth thinking about and providing, if you can, you can't always, but if you can provide folks with the things that will make them not restless, then my sense is they'll probably stay longer.
[00:27:13.160 --> 00:27:15.960] Could we have hired and found our employees if we had no following?
[00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:16.440] Sure.
[00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:18.120] It's just about relationship building.
[00:27:18.120 --> 00:27:23.720] It's about cultivating a lifetime of experiences and connections and working with different people.
[00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:30.040] And, you know, it's that's how you find good employees.
[00:27:30.040 --> 00:27:31.640] It's by knowing people.
[00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:33.960] So, last one for Mandy Jones.
[00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:40.520] Do you feel you have more or less freedom and stress in your lives than four years ago when you started?
[00:27:41.080 --> 00:27:43.000] That's a pretty easy one to answer.
[00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:43.640] Yeah.
[00:27:43.640 --> 00:27:46.600] I have way less stress and far more freedom.
[00:27:46.600 --> 00:27:47.240] Yes.
[00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:53.720] I mean, it's like, I can't even overstate how much of a positive change it had on my life.
[00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:54.040] Yeah.
[00:27:54.520 --> 00:27:59.240] So many different ways that there's just a lot of different ways to count it.
[00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:05.000] But yeah, I mean, stress is for work is like pretty much non-existent.
[00:28:05.560 --> 00:28:12.200] I mean, once in a while, something will break or there's a bug, but it's like everyone comes together to help fix it.
[00:28:12.200 --> 00:28:14.680] It's not, that's not even stressful, really.
[00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:15.000] Yeah.
[00:28:15.520 --> 00:28:20.640] And I mean, we've talked about this a bunch, but like, yeah, just the freedom to sort of build your day how you want.
[00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:21.040] Yeah.
[00:28:21.040 --> 00:28:21.280] Yeah.
[00:28:21.280 --> 00:28:22.560] I mean, it's incredible.
[00:28:22.560 --> 00:28:24.880] Like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't trade that for anything.
[00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:28.880] I think this is a great one to end on because it just build your SAS.
[00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:29.920] What is build your SAS?
[00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:33.040] Like, it's really build the life you want.
[00:28:33.040 --> 00:28:35.040] Like, that's really what we're doing.
[00:28:35.040 --> 00:28:43.200] Who, I mean, if there was another way of doing this that wasn't software that we enjoyed, then that would have been equally as good.
[00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:44.160] You know what I mean?
[00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:44.640] Right.
[00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:55.520] Like, if you and I could have gone into business making bread and you just loved it and I just loved promoting it and we could have the life we wanted, we would have done that.
[00:28:55.520 --> 00:29:01.520] It was from the beginning, we set off on this journey with this in mind.
[00:29:01.520 --> 00:29:03.360] How can we build a better life?
[00:29:03.360 --> 00:29:05.040] How can we have more freedom?
[00:29:05.040 --> 00:29:07.120] How can we have less stress?
[00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:20.960] How can we have a life with margin so that when stress does come up and none of us are immune from the regular stresses of life in people's personal lives, there's going to be all sorts of things that come along.
[00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:21.360] Yeah.
[00:29:21.360 --> 00:29:21.760] Right.
[00:29:21.760 --> 00:29:29.280] That the idea, though, is if there's stress in my personal life, it's not like everything's on fire.
[00:29:29.280 --> 00:29:40.000] It's not like my job at work is stressful and my boss is being a jerk and I have to go to all these meetings I don't like and I don't really like what I'm doing and I'm not being paid as much as I want.
[00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:45.520] And, you know, the big list at least you don't have to worry about that.
[00:29:45.520 --> 00:29:46.160] Yeah.
[00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:49.120] And that is so refreshing.
[00:29:49.120 --> 00:29:50.160] It's a huge change.
[00:29:50.160 --> 00:30:07.800] I mean, I've talked about this, I think, with you and a lot of other people, but like, I don't remember the last time I was like, ended the day and I was angry about, you know, like come home and you're like angry about work and oh, my day was terrible, and so-and-so did this, and this happened.
[00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:11.880] Yeah, it just doesn't happen, and it's kind of amazing.
[00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:17.560] We're so we're so lucky, like, it's just, I just feel so lucky that we get to have this.
[00:30:17.560 --> 00:30:18.760] And again, we never know.
[00:30:18.760 --> 00:30:24.760] Like, life is not, it things don't all, there could become a time where transition becomes a lot more stressful.
[00:30:24.760 --> 00:30:39.960] And the way I just deal with that is I just enjoy the present every single day when we have a good day at work and we can enjoy this freedom and we can enjoy this lack of stress and we can enjoy the other rewards that come from working on something like this.
[00:30:40.280 --> 00:30:45.320] It's just like every day is, I appreciate it so much.
[00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:46.840] Absolutely.
[00:30:47.160 --> 00:31:08.040] I do think there's no surefire way to build a life like this, but I do the encouragement I have for people is if you do want this, to get just continue making those micro investments in your life, continue to cultivate a life that may eventually lead somewhere like this.
[00:31:08.040 --> 00:31:09.720] It's not going to happen overnight.
[00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:13.640] It's not going to happen by looking for ideas out of desperation.
[00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:20.920] It's not going to happen by just, you know, throwing a bunch of spaghetti against the wall and seeing what sticks.
[00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:30.920] Cultivate a life where you're investing in skills, in relationships, and experiences, in knowledge, in curiosity, in connection.
[00:31:31.240 --> 00:31:42.520] And eventually, hopefully, an opportunity will present itself, and you can take advantage of it and build a better life.
[00:31:42.840 --> 00:31:44.920] And this is something I'm passionate about.
[00:31:45.360 --> 00:31:55.200] It's something John's passionate about for more indies to succeed, more indie software companies, more indie companies that could get to this point.
[00:31:55.200 --> 00:32:07.040] And again, even if this doesn't last forever, to have experienced, let's say, three years now of just a really good life is just an incredible feeling.
[00:32:07.040 --> 00:32:08.800] Yeah, well said.
[00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:18.880] We want to thank all of our customers, everybody that has ever signed up for a transistor account and used it at any point.
[00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:20.880] We are so thankful for you.
[00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:32.640] We're thankful for your encouragement, for all of your feedback, for sticking with us, even when we didn't have exactly what you needed.
[00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:34.160] Just thank you, thank you, thank you.
[00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:49.760] There's some customers that have been with us from the beginning, and we can't overstate just how thankful we are to have customers and how pumped up we get seeing you use the product and enjoy the product.
[00:32:49.760 --> 00:32:50.800] So thanks for that.
[00:32:50.800 --> 00:32:51.760] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:32:51.760 --> 00:32:52.240] Yeah.
[00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:56.960] And to everyone who's listened to this show for the last years.
[00:32:56.960 --> 00:32:57.600] Yeah.
[00:32:57.840 --> 00:33:01.200] I know we haven't recorded in a long time together.
[00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:01.680] Yeah.
[00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:04.720] And this seemed appropriate, but yeah.
[00:33:05.600 --> 00:33:11.760] Yeah, we hoped you've enjoyed, I don't know, listening to our journey and hopefully you've learned something.
[00:33:11.760 --> 00:33:14.800] And I mean, we learned a lot doing it too.
[00:33:14.800 --> 00:33:15.360] Yeah.
[00:33:15.360 --> 00:33:19.680] And that, yeah, people encouraging us and listening and encouraging us.
[00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:22.480] And it's hard to understand.
[00:33:22.560 --> 00:33:27.960] You just can't overstate like how meaningful that was and continues to be.
[00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:32.760] Like when we get messages and responses and people saying, hey, thanks so much.
[00:33:32.760 --> 00:33:34.840] Or, hey, we're cheering for you.
[00:33:29.840 --> 00:33:37.320] Or, hey, here's some advice or whatever.
[00:33:37.560 --> 00:33:41.880] It's been so incredible.
[00:33:42.520 --> 00:33:49.160] And yeah, maybe to close things off, we should do our shout outs to the people who have supported us, some from the very beginning.
[00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:49.720] Yeah.
[00:33:50.360 --> 00:33:53.160] And we're just so thankful for these people.
[00:33:53.160 --> 00:34:01.480] This has become, this is, these supporters have become kind of our biggest fans and just the people that have been with us from the beginning.
[00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:07.720] So, yeah, we're just so appreciative of everybody who listens and everybody who supported the show.
[00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:09.320] Let's see who we got here.
[00:34:09.560 --> 00:34:45.080] We have Jason Charnes, Mitchell Davis from recruitkit.com.au, Marcel Falet from WeAreBold.af, Alex Payne, Bill Kondo, Anton Zorin from Prodcamp.com, Harris Kenney from the Intro to CRM podcast, Oleg Kulik, Ethan Gunderson, Ward Sandler from Memberspace, Russell Brown from Odevo.com, Noah Prale, Colin Gray, Austin Lovelace, Michael Sitfer, Paul Jarvis, and Jack Ellis from Fathom.
[00:34:45.240 --> 00:34:54.040] By the way, thanks to Jack for, he always helps me out with some difficult dev problems and he's the nicest guy ever.
[00:34:54.040 --> 00:34:54.520] Yeah.
[00:34:54.520 --> 00:34:55.080] So thank you.
[00:34:55.080 --> 00:34:56.280] Thank you, Jack.
[00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:56.840] Yeah.
[00:34:57.960 --> 00:35:03.480] My brother Dan Buddha, Darby Frey, Adam Devander, Dave Junta.
[00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:05.320] Junta.
[00:35:05.640 --> 00:35:08.440] And Kyle Fox from getrewordful.com.
[00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:09.720] Thanks, everyone.
[00:35:09.720 --> 00:35:11.800] We appreciate you.
[00:35:11.800 --> 00:35:14.760] And we will record another episode soon.
[00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:16.080] Yeah, we should.
[00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:38.160] Podcast hosting is provided by transistor.fm.
[00:35:38.160 --> 00:35:49.440] They host our mp3 files, generate our RSS feed, provide us with analytics, and help us distribute the show to Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more.
[00:35:49.440 --> 00:36:00.640] If you want to start your own podcast or you want to switch to Transistor, go to transistor.fm/slash Justin and get 15% off your first year.

Prompt 2: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 3: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 4: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Full Transcript

[00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:03.120] This podcast is hosted by Transistor.fm.
[00:00:23.920 --> 00:00:25.360] I've heard the intro many times.
[00:00:25.360 --> 00:00:26.320] I should know if I know.
[00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:27.600] I'm not John or Justin.
[00:00:27.600 --> 00:00:37.680] I'm Chris, the podcast editor, and just here to tell you that you're back for part two of John and Justin's answer all the questions about their business.
[00:00:37.680 --> 00:00:38.880] Transistor.fm.
[00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:44.160] I won't waste any more of your time with my rambling and babbling, and let's just get right into the questions.
[00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:53.680] Corey Haynes, another great transistor customer, says, when did you start paying yourself what you actually wanted to make or what you set out to make?
[00:00:53.680 --> 00:00:54.720] I think he's saying.
[00:00:56.160 --> 00:01:00.720] That was probably 2020, I'm guessing.
[00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:01.520] Probably.
[00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:02.640] I don't know what your answer would be.
[00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:04.480] I mean, we had stages of this.
[00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:11.600] And I think when we started, we said kind of baseline for us was to each make $100,000 a year.
[00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:20.640] But the actual goal for me personally was probably like, I would like to be making at least $250,000 a year.
[00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:25.760] And yeah, I can't remember when we hit that, but I don't either.
[00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:28.800] It was probably sometime in 2020.
[00:01:28.800 --> 00:01:31.200] Yeah, I think it was sometime in 2020.
[00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:35.200] Nathan Berry says, so impressed with what you've done in four years.
[00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:36.320] Thanks, Nathan.
[00:01:36.320 --> 00:01:37.040] That's great.
[00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:40.800] Nathan Berry from ConvertKit, another transistor customer.
[00:01:41.120 --> 00:01:46.240] Brian Ray says, a lot of success stories aren't helpful because of survivorship bias.
[00:01:46.240 --> 00:01:49.600] And a lot of answers about success start with, it depends.
[00:01:49.920 --> 00:02:02.840] But after these years, as you've met more and more bootstrappers who have found success, are there a few pieces of advice that you truly believe stand up to the harshest of critiques and are more likely to apply broadly to a wide audience?
[00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:04.840] Thoughts, John?
[00:02:05.160 --> 00:02:05.640] I don't know.
[00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:10.440] I'm not really in touch with the bootstrapping community that much, to be honest.
[00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:13.240] I mean, this is my thing.
[00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:14.520] I just love this part.
[00:02:17.720 --> 00:02:34.520] Choose a good market, choose a good category is, and within that advice is choose a category you know, you have some sort of expertise in, you have, you understand the customer, you hopefully know a bunch of those customers.
[00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:38.680] There's enough momentum in that market to give you the growth that you want.
[00:02:39.320 --> 00:02:44.120] You, you know, that so much depends on the market.
[00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:52.840] And then really, it's everything else we've said, which is the life that you cultivate up to that point is really going to make a big difference.
[00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:57.000] The people you meet, the skills you build, the experiences you have.
[00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:02.040] You know, John has become very good at building product.
[00:03:02.040 --> 00:03:11.480] And it's because, you know, I didn't have to walk with him all through all those years where you were just working freelance and then working for other companies.
[00:03:11.480 --> 00:03:17.640] You know, like they got to, you, you got to train yourself through all those times.
[00:03:17.640 --> 00:03:18.280] Yeah.
[00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:20.440] And then I just got this current version of you.
[00:03:20.440 --> 00:03:22.280] It's pretty good.
[00:03:22.280 --> 00:03:23.960] I knew what I didn't like working on.
[00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:25.400] I figured that out.
[00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:27.800] I knew what type kind of people I didn't like working with.
[00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:35.720] Whatever age you are, whatever stage of life you're in, make these micro investments in yourself as you go along.
[00:03:35.720 --> 00:03:42.200] And it's those things that are going to help you when it's time to actually build a company.
[00:03:42.200 --> 00:03:53.360] So get out and meet some people, go to events, go build some skills, build some things and put them out in public, go work in a bunch of industries.
[00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:53.680] Yeah.
[00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:55.440] I would say all of those things help.
[00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:59.040] Don't, yeah, don't do things you don't necessarily want to do.
[00:03:59.040 --> 00:04:03.920] Like, don't become a manager if you don't want to, if you're sort of just like forced into it.
[00:04:03.920 --> 00:04:06.240] Like, if you don't want to be a manager, then don't be a manager.
[00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:07.440] Like, it's not for everyone.
[00:04:07.440 --> 00:04:07.840] Yeah.
[00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:17.680] If you want to just build things and code and be, you know, work your way up that sort of career path instead of becoming a manager because that's what you think you're supposed to do.
[00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:19.520] Like, don't just try to avoid that.
[00:04:19.520 --> 00:04:20.080] Yes.
[00:04:20.080 --> 00:04:20.640] Yeah.
[00:04:20.640 --> 00:04:26.800] Business ideas are drawn from the experience of our lives and the experience of the people we collaborate with.
[00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:40.640] This is not a critique or a, I'm not trying to disparage anybody, but if you're looking at your life and you're feeling like, oh, I just don't have any good ideas for a business or good, I can't see any good opportunities.
[00:04:40.640 --> 00:04:55.680] The answer is just at whatever age you are, you just need to go out and have more experiences and shake things up a bit, get curious, go to a conference that you're interested in, but you would have normally not gone to.
[00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:58.160] Go take a class.
[00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:00.160] These are all of the things.
[00:05:00.400 --> 00:05:04.000] You once told me a story about you going and working with a baker.
[00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:04.560] Yep.
[00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:07.680] Like you were just interested in baking bread.
[00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:08.160] Yeah.
[00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:10.480] And you just think the story there.
[00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:13.680] I'm trying to even think how I got into bread.
[00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:14.080] I don't know.
[00:05:14.080 --> 00:05:15.920] I got interested in bread for some reason.
[00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:17.440] Like this was before the whole pandemic.
[00:05:17.440 --> 00:05:19.520] Like everyone's bacon sourdough.
[00:05:19.520 --> 00:05:23.760] I honestly don't remember why I got into it or what led me there, but I did.
[00:05:23.760 --> 00:05:25.280] And I got super interested in it.
[00:05:25.280 --> 00:05:28.000] And I was like, I would like to start making bread.
[00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:28.480] Yeah.
[00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:36.200] And the more I got into it, I was like, oh, I found all these, I don't know, blogs and like YouTube things about bread.
[00:05:37.880 --> 00:05:40.200] I tried to make some and it was a disaster.
[00:05:40.200 --> 00:05:51.320] And then I just, out of the blue, I think I saw a chef that runs a restaurant group in Chicago who also run, who also owns the bakery.
[00:05:51.640 --> 00:05:59.720] He posted something online about like, oh, we're hiring bakers at Public and Quality Breads, which is in Chicago.
[00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:05.800] And so I emailed the guy, the head baker, and it's a young guy named Greg.
[00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:11.960] And I was like, hey, can I, I'm like, I'm just interested in like learning how to make bread.
[00:06:11.960 --> 00:06:15.160] And can I just like come in and work for free?
[00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:16.120] He's like, oh, yeah.
[00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:18.520] Like, that's a thing, you know, that's a thing you do in the restaurant industry.
[00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:23.960] You can go stage and like just show up and they'll let you work for freak and they'll teach you stuff.
[00:06:23.960 --> 00:06:24.600] Yeah.
[00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:29.000] And he's like, yeah, come here at a Saturday, eight in the morning.
[00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:30.680] And I was like, all right.
[00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:32.840] And I thought I was just going to go there to like talk to him.
[00:06:32.840 --> 00:06:38.280] And he's like, all right, so there's an apron in the basement and we're going to get to work.
[00:06:38.280 --> 00:06:39.320] And I'm like, what?
[00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:41.160] I like hadn't eaten that day.
[00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:45.000] And I just showed up and worked like an entire eight-hour day with this guy.
[00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:48.440] I was starving and not ready for this at all.
[00:06:48.440 --> 00:06:49.480] And then I did it.
[00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:52.280] I did it once a weekend for a couple months and it was great.
[00:06:52.280 --> 00:06:53.640] I just love that story.
[00:06:53.640 --> 00:06:54.200] It was great.
[00:06:54.200 --> 00:06:55.800] I mean, I learned a ton.
[00:06:55.800 --> 00:06:57.080] Like, I don't, you know, you just.
[00:06:57.400 --> 00:07:05.320] But what I love about that story is that it shows you, it's a perfect example of how you can cultivate these types of experiences.
[00:07:05.640 --> 00:07:32.080] Like, just to be curious, to reach out, to take a risk, to, and this is all while you're working full-time as a software developer, yeah, yeah, and and so you just did this on the side, and you now have a much greater understanding of how to make good bread, but you also understand the restaurant industry, you've got insights about the restaurant industry, you know some people in the restaurant industry now.
[00:07:32.080 --> 00:07:39.600] That's how you cultivate this life that can then produce opportunities is by kind of doing things like that.
[00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:40.880] Yeah, exactly.
[00:07:40.880 --> 00:07:42.640] Yeah, I would encourage anyone to do it.
[00:07:42.640 --> 00:07:48.000] I mean, with anything, really, it doesn't have to be a restaurant or bread, or probably there's probably tons of ways you could do that.
[00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:49.360] Yeah, totally.
[00:07:49.360 --> 00:08:06.880] Yeah, I've just like another trick I've done is I've signed up for a meetup, like I've gone onto meetup.com or whatever, and signed up for search for cheap flights to different cities and then just chosen a meetup in another city that I wanted to go to.
[00:08:07.520 --> 00:08:15.520] And the great thing about that is you show up at this meetup group where there's a group of people already who know each other and they're like, Who are you?
[00:08:15.520 --> 00:08:16.160] Where are you from?
[00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:20.160] And you're like, Well, I flew in from Canada to come to this thing.
[00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:21.600] And they're like, What?
[00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:26.560] Like, and you know, this is like I did this in Vegas one time, and the tickets were cheap.
[00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:30.000] It was like, whatever, $95 flight to Vegas.
[00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:39.120] But I got this experience of meeting all these people and connecting with people on a topic I didn't know about.
[00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:40.560] And it was cool.
[00:08:40.560 --> 00:08:41.120] It was really cool.
[00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:46.640] And that's why, yeah, I used to go to a lot of design conferences.
[00:08:46.640 --> 00:08:47.440] Yes.
[00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:48.480] Because I was interested.
[00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:52.160] I was, you know, mostly a developer, but like I was really interested in design.
[00:08:52.160 --> 00:08:56.160] And I was going to like, you know, like graphic design conferences.
[00:08:56.160 --> 00:08:57.120] Because they were fascinating.
[00:08:57.120 --> 00:08:59.040] I'd meet like the most amazing people.
[00:08:59.040 --> 00:08:59.520] Yes.
[00:08:59.520 --> 00:09:01.720] And they were like, oh, you're a developer and you're here.
[00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:03.800] I'm like, yeah, it's like super interesting.
[00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:08.040] And like, you're all probably more fun to hang out with than most of the other people at other conferences.
[00:09:08.040 --> 00:09:09.720] And like, yeah.
[00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:18.520] You know, you just like you absorb yourself and surround yourself in these communities and you just, you just absorb information.
[00:09:18.520 --> 00:09:27.800] And like you're probably going to get better at design, even if that's not your main, your main role, like just by being around it.
[00:09:27.800 --> 00:09:28.280] Yeah.
[00:09:28.520 --> 00:09:44.440] This characteristic actually is one characteristic I found with successful founders is people who cultivate this kind of life and curiosity often do eventually start companies that work out.
[00:09:44.680 --> 00:09:49.000] It's not a guarantee, but Kyle Fox is very similar.
[00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:51.240] And his trick was also he would start events.
[00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:57.400] So he got really, he's a software developer, but he got really into type and typefaces.
[00:09:57.400 --> 00:10:02.040] And so him and a friend just started a conference all about type.
[00:10:02.040 --> 00:10:06.040] And, you know, what a great way to meet people that way.
[00:10:06.040 --> 00:10:13.320] You know, all of a sudden he's able to bring in the world's best typeface designers to one place and meet them.
[00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:21.000] And, you know, and it was, he was able to learn all this stuff about, you know, type and typefaces just from running these events.
[00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:29.640] I mean, ultimately, that's why I ended up at XOXO and met you is because it seemed like a super interesting place to go with interesting people.
[00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:30.600] Yeah.
[00:10:30.640 --> 00:10:31.480] Yeah, yeah.
[00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:35.880] And I wasn't, I wasn't always the most outgoing extroverted person.
[00:10:35.880 --> 00:10:39.000] I'm still not, but like, it's something you can work on.
[00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:39.560] Yeah.
[00:10:39.560 --> 00:10:40.040] Yeah.
[00:10:40.040 --> 00:10:50.000] And you can practice even just going to local meetups and just, yeah, meeting people, taking a risk, putting yourself out there.
[00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:53.440] I mean, for a lot of people, meeting people is meeting new people is terrifying.
[00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:53.920] Yes.
[00:10:53.920 --> 00:10:57.120] So what's your advice for people who find that terrifying?
[00:10:57.280 --> 00:10:58.800] You just got to try it.
[00:10:58.800 --> 00:11:00.880] Just like go with say hi.
[00:11:00.880 --> 00:11:02.320] You know, like, I don't know.
[00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:03.360] Yeah, just say hi.
[00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:06.160] Try to talk about something interesting.
[00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:14.400] It doesn't even have to be about like the topic that, you know, wherever you're at is about, but like, you know, find some common thread to talk about.
[00:11:14.800 --> 00:11:15.200] Yeah.
[00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:18.240] And I think it also helps to have a good wingman or a wing person.
[00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:21.680] Like Chase Reeves introduced me to so many people.
[00:11:21.680 --> 00:11:22.160] Yeah.
[00:11:22.160 --> 00:11:28.080] And, you know, that having that person there.
[00:11:28.640 --> 00:11:34.960] And honestly, I met him in a way that was not introverted, but he read one of my articles.
[00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:38.800] It wasn't like, you know, we'd met in the other way.
[00:11:38.800 --> 00:11:40.400] He read one of my articles and reached out.
[00:11:40.400 --> 00:11:43.040] So there's all sorts of ways you can create these connections.
[00:11:43.040 --> 00:11:47.520] Let's do a few more and we'll get Chris to split these up however he'd like.
[00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:52.800] Lars Hubak says, would love to hear about some of the technical sides of developing the product.
[00:11:52.800 --> 00:11:54.400] How did you decide on the tech stack?
[00:11:54.400 --> 00:11:56.320] Did you develop everything yourselves?
[00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:57.680] How about hosting and billing?
[00:11:57.680 --> 00:12:00.480] Did you outsource some of the work, design, UI?
[00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:02.320] And if yes, how did you do it?
[00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:04.400] How did you prioritize features?
[00:12:04.400 --> 00:12:05.440] That's a lot.
[00:12:06.560 --> 00:12:10.240] So bit by bit, how did you choose the tech stack?
[00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:17.280] I chose Ruby on Rails because that's what I knew and that's what I was comfortable with and I knew I could be productive in it.
[00:12:17.280 --> 00:12:29.680] I mean, at the time I started it, there's certainly like the trend was moving towards like building React front ends against an API, and it just didn't interest me.
[00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:40.280] It would have taken too long for me to learn it, and I probably would have not enjoyed it because I just like the way Rails is put together.
[00:12:41.800 --> 00:12:43.240] That's how I chose it.
[00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:44.760] I think it was a good choice.
[00:12:44.760 --> 00:12:46.200] I mean, it could have been Laravel.
[00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:50.360] I'd have known PHP better, but went with Rails.
[00:12:50.440 --> 00:13:00.440] Yeah, I think any full stack web framework, Laravel, Django, Rails, it's all fine.
[00:13:01.640 --> 00:13:08.840] I still think those old web frameworks are still amazing choices for building indie SAS.
[00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:10.680] They're just so good.
[00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:13.240] Did we develop everything ourselves?
[00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:16.120] I mean, yes and no.
[00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:26.120] Like, you know, the app is obviously, it's custom built, but within that, we're using all sorts of open source libraries that are helping out.
[00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:33.960] We're, you know, using Tailwind CSS for, you know, helping build out the design.
[00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:35.640] We used to use something else.
[00:13:35.640 --> 00:13:37.240] I didn't want to custom-build CSS.
[00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:41.640] I just wanted to be able to build an interface quickly that looks pretty good.
[00:13:41.640 --> 00:13:47.320] And we hired, we do, we've hired people at different times to contractors.
[00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:48.440] I think that's been a good way.
[00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:54.920] Like the logo and the transistor logo and stuff is somebody you hired to build.
[00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:55.800] The website has been.
[00:13:56.120 --> 00:13:59.800] You've hired people to help out with the actual marketing website.
[00:13:59.800 --> 00:14:00.120] Yeah.
[00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:07.080] And even when I decided to rebuild the website myself, I definitely got a lot of help.
[00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:12.120] Like it was me, but I was building it in public and I was like constant.
[00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:20.640] I mean, the transistor website probably has 30 people that helped with different things over the span of building it.
[00:14:20.880 --> 00:14:25.040] So there's lots of ways to get other people to help.
[00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:27.760] And how did we prioritize features?
[00:14:27.760 --> 00:14:33.680] We've almost always prioritized features based on our sense of what customers want.
[00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:38.640] And that's not always like what they tell us in chat.
[00:14:39.040 --> 00:14:41.760] It's observing people and saying, you know what?
[00:14:41.760 --> 00:14:51.280] I think this is something that customers actually want in terms of, I mean, the badges is actually a great example.
[00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:54.080] Nobody said, told us they wanted badges.
[00:14:54.080 --> 00:15:02.080] We just saw them constantly tweeting their stats, like, hey, my podcast just hit 1,000 downloads.
[00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:04.400] And so we were like, people want this.
[00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:08.480] And we were able to prioritize that.
[00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:12.000] We also, I mean, prioritizing features, we have a small team.
[00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:14.160] We know we're not going to be able to build everything.
[00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:20.480] We discuss a lot of ideas, but most of them just go into a document and just stay there.
[00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:23.520] And yeah, there's a lot of stuff that's just forgotten about.
[00:15:23.520 --> 00:15:27.600] But if it comes back up, it's a good indication that it's probably something we want to build.
[00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:34.480] And I think we also prioritize like within the team, like what do you, what do you think is going to be fun for you to work on?
[00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:35.680] Like, what are you excited about?
[00:15:35.680 --> 00:15:39.440] And then that can help bubble things up to the top of the list.
[00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:39.600] Yeah.
[00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:54.240] And you can really, that's the fun thing about being at this stage is you can really do that when you're once you've hit a certain amount of revenue and margin, you can kind of prioritize things that are more fun, which you really do need.
[00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:54.720] Yeah.
[00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:56.000] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:00.760] David Thompson does the adage, if you're not embarrassed by the first version, you shipped too late still hold.
[00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:08.520] I think the best response to this is Jason Cohen's simple, lovable product article.
[00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:14.920] I will try to post that in the show notes.
[00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:19.160] Yeah, so he goes, he has this article called I Hate MVPs.
[00:16:19.160 --> 00:16:26.840] So do your customers make it SLC instead, which is simple, lovable, and complete.
[00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:29.720] Our first version of Transistor had those elements.
[00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:31.160] It was simple.
[00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:32.760] It was lovable.
[00:16:32.760 --> 00:16:42.600] Like we had elements of it that made it, even like from the beginning, more attractive than a lot of our customers, better designed, more personable.
[00:16:43.160 --> 00:16:45.000] It didn't work on mobile phones, though, at all.
[00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:46.760] Like the design did not work.
[00:16:46.760 --> 00:16:47.400] That's right.
[00:16:47.400 --> 00:16:56.520] So there were things that didn't work at the beginning, but we didn't need mobile for 99% of the use cases, right?
[00:16:56.520 --> 00:16:57.080] Yeah.
[00:16:57.080 --> 00:17:08.360] And it was complete in that we could go to people who had a podcast somewhere else and say, hey, I know you're on Libsyn, or I know you're on BuzzSprout, or I know you're on Simplecast or whatever.
[00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:11.080] Would you switch to Transistor?
[00:17:11.080 --> 00:17:18.360] And they were able to look at our features when we demoed it and say, oh, yeah, this has got like 90% of what I need.
[00:17:18.360 --> 00:17:20.760] And they signed up.
[00:17:20.760 --> 00:17:24.120] So simple, lovable, complete.
[00:17:24.120 --> 00:17:27.720] That is better than the MVP.
[00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:32.600] I don't think you want to be embarrassed by the first version that you put into customers' hands.
[00:17:32.600 --> 00:17:33.640] You want to feel good about it.
[00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:38.680] You want to feel like, yeah, this is actually worth switching to, you know?
[00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:48.560] And if you can't pull that off, then either collaborate with people that allow you to pull that off or work on your own skills or whatever.
[00:17:48.800 --> 00:17:55.680] But yeah, you want the first version to feel good, to be simple, lovable, complete.
[00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:58.400] How did you decide on pricing?
[00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:00.640] We've done a number of episodes on that.
[00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:06.160] Really, we talked to a lot of people and we surveyed our category.
[00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:15.840] So if you go back through the podcast, you can see we talked to Nathan Berry, Rob Walling, Patrick Campbell, Profit Well.
[00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:22.400] We had an episode where we debated, I debated pricing with Ben Ornstein and Jordan Gall, I believe.
[00:18:23.040 --> 00:18:28.080] And then we also looked at our category and just what people are charging.
[00:18:28.080 --> 00:18:32.800] And we looked for an opportunity where we could stand out from the competition.
[00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:39.280] And that's where we came up with this idea of unlimited podcasts for one price.
[00:18:39.280 --> 00:18:47.200] So if you had three shows on Simplecast, you could switch to transistor, all three shows to transistor, and save money.
[00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:55.200] And that was our kind of our first way of kind of pulling people saying, hey, why would I switch to transistor?
[00:18:55.200 --> 00:19:01.200] Well, if you have more than two or three shows, it's a no-brainer because you're going to save money.
[00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:03.360] And that's not initially how we started either.
[00:19:03.360 --> 00:19:11.440] I mean, when we had our beta tester user group, they were charged per podcast.
[00:19:11.520 --> 00:19:14.080] They were charged differently, but with a huge discount.
[00:19:14.080 --> 00:19:14.640] Yeah.
[00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:25.440] And then before we launched, I don't know when we decided, but I'm thankful we switched pricing structures for a number of reasons.
[00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:27.040] But yeah, we switched.
[00:19:27.040 --> 00:19:38.440] We just like decided to do it based on downloads and features instead of per podcast, which I think worked out really well in our favor.
[00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:38.920] Yeah.
[00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:39.160] Yeah.
[00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:58.440] And it's worth going back to those episodes because a lot of that is pricing theory that we got from all those people we talked to, but specifically Patrick Campbell, where he recommended that we take your main kind of cost structure in your business.
[00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:05.000] So for us, it was bandwidth and hosting and all those things, but mostly bandwidth, and charge based on that.
[00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:15.080] That's why it makes sense to charge in Slack, it makes sense to charge per seat because the more people you have, the more your costs go up as the software provider.
[00:20:15.080 --> 00:20:21.720] And for email, it's like the more emails you send, the more it costs you as an email service provider.
[00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:26.680] For us, the more downloads that you do, the more it costs us as a service provider.
[00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:34.760] So having that as our pricing, what does Patrick call it?
[00:20:34.760 --> 00:20:37.000] It's like your value metric.
[00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:43.160] So make your value metric match up with your main cost.
[00:20:43.800 --> 00:20:49.720] And it doesn't always have to match up with your main cost, but you have to figure out a value metric that makes sense for your business and your category.
[00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:52.520] And yeah, downloads just work really well for us.
[00:20:52.520 --> 00:20:57.160] And then this idea of like, well, and you can start as many shows as you want.
[00:20:57.160 --> 00:21:03.720] So previously, for a lot of our competitors, the value metric was every time you start a new show, you got to pay us again.
[00:21:04.040 --> 00:21:09.720] And we said, no, let's let people start as many shows as they want and then pay us based on usage.
[00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:13.000] Pay us based on how many listens or downloads do you get.
[00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:13.960] Super good.
[00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:15.840] All right, we're going to finish up with a few more.
[00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:18.720] Corey asks us about hiring.
[00:21:19.040 --> 00:21:23.040] How would you have hired or found your employees if you had no following?
[00:21:23.280 --> 00:21:26.560] What was your selection process for your first employees?
[00:21:27.120 --> 00:21:32.640] How to hire and work with ambitious people and grow a team while providing incentives to stay in the company?
[00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:35.680] Do I hire young and experienced and train them?
[00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:48.720] So I think what I'll say, we've already talked about this, but I've been hiring people since I probably since 2005 or something in previous jobs.
[00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:57.280] The best hires I've made almost every single time are people that I already had a relationship with, people I already knew.
[00:21:57.280 --> 00:22:05.600] And so maybe that won't doesn't work for every company and every category, but for us, that's really worked out well.
[00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:06.720] Hey?
[00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:07.440] Yep.
[00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:08.000] Yeah.
[00:22:09.760 --> 00:22:10.880] I was thinking.
[00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:18.400] I mean, the question itself is kind of tough to answer because we don't have like experienced growing teams, like huge teams.
[00:22:19.360 --> 00:22:19.920] Yeah.
[00:22:20.080 --> 00:22:30.320] But yeah, I would say hire people you know and you can work well with, hire experienced people at first.
[00:22:30.320 --> 00:22:36.880] I mean, we haven't hired anyone junior really, but I think that would be tough for a small company like us.
[00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:51.280] Like, we wanted to hire Jason as a developer because he just has like a ton of experience in so many different areas and has, you know, seen the problems that can come up and knows how to fix things, knows how to troubleshoot.
[00:22:51.280 --> 00:22:52.400] And same with Helen.
[00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:58.000] We hired her, but she'd previously been with MakerPad, ConvertKit.
[00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:11.400] Like she had all, and also doing, I think she was in the, I can't remember who was healthcare industry doing customer success, but she had all of this experience so much better.
[00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:11.880] Yeah.
[00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:13.960] Like there's just no training you need to do.
[00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:22.680] They can literally hit the ground running and be high value contributors almost right away.
[00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:23.160] Yeah.
[00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:30.760] I would say as far as like trying to keep employees around, I mean, as we record this, today is Justin's one-year anniversary.
[00:23:30.760 --> 00:23:31.720] Jason's.
[00:23:32.360 --> 00:23:34.520] Jason's one-year anniversary today.
[00:23:34.840 --> 00:23:37.080] And Helen's been with us for what, like a year and a half.
[00:23:37.080 --> 00:23:38.280] I mean, full-time.
[00:23:38.280 --> 00:23:38.840] Yeah.
[00:23:39.320 --> 00:23:44.200] I mean, we've been generous with like time off and schedules and flexible working.
[00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:51.640] You know, we were really generous last year with like profit sharing bonuses, raises.
[00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:54.440] I think have been pretty good.
[00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:54.920] Yeah.
[00:23:55.640 --> 00:24:16.040] I think generally the key is just to like, you know, recognize when your employees are maybe not enjoying themselves or hope that they reach out to you or just ask how they're doing, what maybe what can change and kind of allow them to like build their workday around their lives instead of the other way around.
[00:24:16.760 --> 00:24:26.680] Yeah, there's a lot of times actually where you and I make decisions based on how we were treated as employees.
[00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:32.680] So like it always bugged me that at Christmas time I never got a bonus.
[00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:38.440] And we've done, so typically we've done bigger bonuses at the end of the year.
[00:24:39.320 --> 00:24:45.000] And it just also has this benefit of being like around Christmas time.
[00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:48.000] And it's just like nice.
[00:24:48.320 --> 00:24:49.760] And it was something that bugged me.
[00:24:49.760 --> 00:24:56.080] It was like a reason I wanted to leave previous companies because I was like, they never give me any bonuses.
[00:24:56.080 --> 00:24:58.480] Like, yeah, I never got any.
[00:24:58.480 --> 00:24:59.760] I knew how well they were doing.
[00:24:59.760 --> 00:25:08.240] And it's why we're considering how can we, you know, share some of the ownership with our employees, either through stock options or something like that.
[00:25:09.280 --> 00:25:22.960] So mining your own experience as an employee and just realizing like, what were the things that made me feel like, ah, I another thing that made me want to leave was I really wanted to work remotely and have flexibility.
[00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:25.520] And that wasn't allowed at a lot of companies.
[00:25:25.520 --> 00:25:28.800] So I kind of wanted to leave right away.
[00:25:29.040 --> 00:25:47.120] I think another thing that's been interesting is if people have any sort of you can't always like provide for this, but if people, for example, want to pay off, they have a goal or a pressure to pay off student loans, let's say.
[00:25:47.120 --> 00:25:54.880] If that's something they want to do and working for you isn't helping them get to that goal, they're always going to be looking for something else.
[00:25:55.680 --> 00:26:00.640] They're always going to be looking for to do a side hustle or, you know, go and work another job.
[00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:07.040] Or if another job comes along that pays better and gets them closer to that goal, they're going to do that.
[00:26:07.040 --> 00:26:18.400] If they have a goal to move to a different country and work remotely, but you only have a local office, they're going to keep trying to get to that goal.
[00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:26.160] And so, one way of keeping people, and by the way, I don't know if John and I are awesome at this yet either.
[00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:34.840] Like, we're, you know, we're trying to stay in touch with Helen and Jason and, you know, ask them what they're aiming for or whatever.
[00:26:36.120 --> 00:26:50.040] But I think that is part of the key: just figuring out what are some of their longings, what are some of the things they're working on, what are some of the things that are making them restless.
[00:26:50.360 --> 00:26:57.400] You know, and you know, John and I know what made us restless when we were employees.
[00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:13.000] So, yeah, I think that's worth thinking about and providing, if you can, you can't always, but if you can provide folks with the things that will make them not restless, then my sense is they'll probably stay longer.
[00:27:13.160 --> 00:27:15.960] Could we have hired and found our employees if we had no following?
[00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:16.440] Sure.
[00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:18.120] It's just about relationship building.
[00:27:18.120 --> 00:27:23.720] It's about cultivating a lifetime of experiences and connections and working with different people.
[00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:30.040] And, you know, it's that's how you find good employees.
[00:27:30.040 --> 00:27:31.640] It's by knowing people.
[00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:33.960] So, last one for Mandy Jones.
[00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:40.520] Do you feel you have more or less freedom and stress in your lives than four years ago when you started?
[00:27:41.080 --> 00:27:43.000] That's a pretty easy one to answer.
[00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:43.640] Yeah.
[00:27:43.640 --> 00:27:46.600] I have way less stress and far more freedom.
[00:27:46.600 --> 00:27:47.240] Yes.
[00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:53.720] I mean, it's like, I can't even overstate how much of a positive change it had on my life.
[00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:54.040] Yeah.
[00:27:54.520 --> 00:27:59.240] So many different ways that there's just a lot of different ways to count it.
[00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:05.000] But yeah, I mean, stress is for work is like pretty much non-existent.
[00:28:05.560 --> 00:28:12.200] I mean, once in a while, something will break or there's a bug, but it's like everyone comes together to help fix it.
[00:28:12.200 --> 00:28:14.680] It's not, that's not even stressful, really.
[00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:15.000] Yeah.
[00:28:15.520 --> 00:28:20.640] And I mean, we've talked about this a bunch, but like, yeah, just the freedom to sort of build your day how you want.
[00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:21.040] Yeah.
[00:28:21.040 --> 00:28:21.280] Yeah.
[00:28:21.280 --> 00:28:22.560] I mean, it's incredible.
[00:28:22.560 --> 00:28:24.880] Like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't trade that for anything.
[00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:28.880] I think this is a great one to end on because it just build your SAS.
[00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:29.920] What is build your SAS?
[00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:33.040] Like, it's really build the life you want.
[00:28:33.040 --> 00:28:35.040] Like, that's really what we're doing.
[00:28:35.040 --> 00:28:43.200] Who, I mean, if there was another way of doing this that wasn't software that we enjoyed, then that would have been equally as good.
[00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:44.160] You know what I mean?
[00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:44.640] Right.
[00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:55.520] Like, if you and I could have gone into business making bread and you just loved it and I just loved promoting it and we could have the life we wanted, we would have done that.
[00:28:55.520 --> 00:29:01.520] It was from the beginning, we set off on this journey with this in mind.
[00:29:01.520 --> 00:29:03.360] How can we build a better life?
[00:29:03.360 --> 00:29:05.040] How can we have more freedom?
[00:29:05.040 --> 00:29:07.120] How can we have less stress?
[00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:20.960] How can we have a life with margin so that when stress does come up and none of us are immune from the regular stresses of life in people's personal lives, there's going to be all sorts of things that come along.
[00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:21.360] Yeah.
[00:29:21.360 --> 00:29:21.760] Right.
[00:29:21.760 --> 00:29:29.280] That the idea, though, is if there's stress in my personal life, it's not like everything's on fire.
[00:29:29.280 --> 00:29:40.000] It's not like my job at work is stressful and my boss is being a jerk and I have to go to all these meetings I don't like and I don't really like what I'm doing and I'm not being paid as much as I want.
[00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:45.520] And, you know, the big list at least you don't have to worry about that.
[00:29:45.520 --> 00:29:46.160] Yeah.
[00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:49.120] And that is so refreshing.
[00:29:49.120 --> 00:29:50.160] It's a huge change.
[00:29:50.160 --> 00:30:07.800] I mean, I've talked about this, I think, with you and a lot of other people, but like, I don't remember the last time I was like, ended the day and I was angry about, you know, like come home and you're like angry about work and oh, my day was terrible, and so-and-so did this, and this happened.
[00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:11.880] Yeah, it just doesn't happen, and it's kind of amazing.
[00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:17.560] We're so we're so lucky, like, it's just, I just feel so lucky that we get to have this.
[00:30:17.560 --> 00:30:18.760] And again, we never know.
[00:30:18.760 --> 00:30:24.760] Like, life is not, it things don't all, there could become a time where transition becomes a lot more stressful.
[00:30:24.760 --> 00:30:39.960] And the way I just deal with that is I just enjoy the present every single day when we have a good day at work and we can enjoy this freedom and we can enjoy this lack of stress and we can enjoy the other rewards that come from working on something like this.
[00:30:40.280 --> 00:30:45.320] It's just like every day is, I appreciate it so much.
[00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:46.840] Absolutely.
[00:30:47.160 --> 00:31:08.040] I do think there's no surefire way to build a life like this, but I do the encouragement I have for people is if you do want this, to get just continue making those micro investments in your life, continue to cultivate a life that may eventually lead somewhere like this.
[00:31:08.040 --> 00:31:09.720] It's not going to happen overnight.
[00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:13.640] It's not going to happen by looking for ideas out of desperation.
[00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:20.920] It's not going to happen by just, you know, throwing a bunch of spaghetti against the wall and seeing what sticks.
[00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:30.920] Cultivate a life where you're investing in skills, in relationships, and experiences, in knowledge, in curiosity, in connection.
[00:31:31.240 --> 00:31:42.520] And eventually, hopefully, an opportunity will present itself, and you can take advantage of it and build a better life.
[00:31:42.840 --> 00:31:44.920] And this is something I'm passionate about.
[00:31:45.360 --> 00:31:55.200] It's something John's passionate about for more indies to succeed, more indie software companies, more indie companies that could get to this point.
[00:31:55.200 --> 00:32:07.040] And again, even if this doesn't last forever, to have experienced, let's say, three years now of just a really good life is just an incredible feeling.
[00:32:07.040 --> 00:32:08.800] Yeah, well said.
[00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:18.880] We want to thank all of our customers, everybody that has ever signed up for a transistor account and used it at any point.
[00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:20.880] We are so thankful for you.
[00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:32.640] We're thankful for your encouragement, for all of your feedback, for sticking with us, even when we didn't have exactly what you needed.
[00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:34.160] Just thank you, thank you, thank you.
[00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:49.760] There's some customers that have been with us from the beginning, and we can't overstate just how thankful we are to have customers and how pumped up we get seeing you use the product and enjoy the product.
[00:32:49.760 --> 00:32:50.800] So thanks for that.
[00:32:50.800 --> 00:32:51.760] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:32:51.760 --> 00:32:52.240] Yeah.
[00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:56.960] And to everyone who's listened to this show for the last years.
[00:32:56.960 --> 00:32:57.600] Yeah.
[00:32:57.840 --> 00:33:01.200] I know we haven't recorded in a long time together.
[00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:01.680] Yeah.
[00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:04.720] And this seemed appropriate, but yeah.
[00:33:05.600 --> 00:33:11.760] Yeah, we hoped you've enjoyed, I don't know, listening to our journey and hopefully you've learned something.
[00:33:11.760 --> 00:33:14.800] And I mean, we learned a lot doing it too.
[00:33:14.800 --> 00:33:15.360] Yeah.
[00:33:15.360 --> 00:33:19.680] And that, yeah, people encouraging us and listening and encouraging us.
[00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:22.480] And it's hard to understand.
[00:33:22.560 --> 00:33:27.960] You just can't overstate like how meaningful that was and continues to be.
[00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:32.760] Like when we get messages and responses and people saying, hey, thanks so much.
[00:33:32.760 --> 00:33:34.840] Or, hey, we're cheering for you.
[00:33:29.840 --> 00:33:37.320] Or, hey, here's some advice or whatever.
[00:33:37.560 --> 00:33:41.880] It's been so incredible.
[00:33:42.520 --> 00:33:49.160] And yeah, maybe to close things off, we should do our shout outs to the people who have supported us, some from the very beginning.
[00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:49.720] Yeah.
[00:33:50.360 --> 00:33:53.160] And we're just so thankful for these people.
[00:33:53.160 --> 00:34:01.480] This has become, this is, these supporters have become kind of our biggest fans and just the people that have been with us from the beginning.
[00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:07.720] So, yeah, we're just so appreciative of everybody who listens and everybody who supported the show.
[00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:09.320] Let's see who we got here.
[00:34:09.560 --> 00:34:45.080] We have Jason Charnes, Mitchell Davis from recruitkit.com.au, Marcel Falet from WeAreBold.af, Alex Payne, Bill Kondo, Anton Zorin from Prodcamp.com, Harris Kenney from the Intro to CRM podcast, Oleg Kulik, Ethan Gunderson, Ward Sandler from Memberspace, Russell Brown from Odevo.com, Noah Prale, Colin Gray, Austin Lovelace, Michael Sitfer, Paul Jarvis, and Jack Ellis from Fathom.
[00:34:45.240 --> 00:34:54.040] By the way, thanks to Jack for, he always helps me out with some difficult dev problems and he's the nicest guy ever.
[00:34:54.040 --> 00:34:54.520] Yeah.
[00:34:54.520 --> 00:34:55.080] So thank you.
[00:34:55.080 --> 00:34:56.280] Thank you, Jack.
[00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:56.840] Yeah.
[00:34:57.960 --> 00:35:03.480] My brother Dan Buddha, Darby Frey, Adam Devander, Dave Junta.
[00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:05.320] Junta.
[00:35:05.640 --> 00:35:08.440] And Kyle Fox from getrewordful.com.
[00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:09.720] Thanks, everyone.
[00:35:09.720 --> 00:35:11.800] We appreciate you.
[00:35:11.800 --> 00:35:14.760] And we will record another episode soon.
[00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:16.080] Yeah, we should.
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