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[00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:03.440] This podcast is hosted by Transistor.fm.
[00:00:05.680 --> 00:00:11.600] All right, and when you're ready to do an intro, go ahead.
[00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:13.840] It's been a while.
[00:00:26.720 --> 00:00:28.960] Hey, everyone, welcome to Build Your Sass.
[00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:32.880] This is the behind-the-scenes story of building a web app in 2022.
[00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:35.040] I'm John Buddha, a software engineer.
[00:00:35.040 --> 00:00:36.400] And I'm Justin Jackson.
[00:00:36.400 --> 00:00:38.160] I do product and marketing.
[00:00:38.160 --> 00:00:44.960] You've been following along as we've been building Transistor.fm.
[00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:54.480] And John, it's kind of crazy to think that we've been doing this show for over four years.
[00:00:54.480 --> 00:00:55.120] Yeah.
[00:00:55.440 --> 00:01:02.000] And that means the company we built together is also, well, over four years old.
[00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:15.200] But today, August 1st, is the anniversary of us publicly launching Transistor to the world, doing the product hunt launch and all that.
[00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:15.920] Yeah, August.
[00:01:16.160 --> 00:01:16.880] Do you remember?
[00:01:17.440 --> 00:01:18.640] Do you remember that time?
[00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:19.680] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:20.960] I remember that.
[00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:22.880] Yeah, that was a fun time.
[00:01:23.360 --> 00:01:24.640] We were both in Chicago.
[00:01:24.880 --> 00:01:26.320] Kind of wild.
[00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:29.280] I crashed at your apartment.
[00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:30.080] Yep.
[00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:46.720] I mean, if people go back in our episodes, they will realize, like, you can go back to, you know, I think our first episode is something like February or March of that year before we launched.
[00:01:51.440 --> 00:01:52.800] My name is John Buddha.
[00:01:52.800 --> 00:01:55.520] I am living in Chicago, Illinois.
[00:01:55.680 --> 00:01:58.400] I'm a developer by trade, I suppose.
[00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:01.320] I have background, a little bit of a background in design as well.
[00:02:01.320 --> 00:02:04.360] So, I guess a kind of a full stack web developer.
[00:02:04.520 --> 00:02:05.880] I'm Justin Jackson.
[00:01:59.920 --> 00:02:07.000] I'm from Canada.
[00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:10.040] I got started in software in 2008.
[00:02:10.200 --> 00:02:16.360] Now, on the web, I'm kind of known as indie entrepreneur or solopreneur guy.
[00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:21.880] So, we met back in 2014 because we met at XOXO.
[00:02:21.880 --> 00:02:22.680] We did, yeah.
[00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:35.240] That first day of the festival, you and I met, and I remember being so thankful that you wanted to talk to me because sort of the opposite for me because I'm a fairly introverted guy.
[00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:41.800] So, for me to talk to random folks at festivals is like me pushing myself out of my comfort zone completely.
[00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:43.960] So, you're saying it was painful for you?
[00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:45.480] A little bit at first, sure.
[00:02:45.480 --> 00:02:47.240] Yeah, I think it smoothed out.
[00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:48.360] It went all right.
[00:02:50.920 --> 00:02:52.280] It's kind of wild.
[00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:53.080] It's just wild.
[00:02:53.400 --> 00:03:03.320] There was this feeling when I flew to Chicago of expectation and nervousness.
[00:03:03.320 --> 00:03:10.680] This feeling of you and I knew each other, but not nearly as much as we know each other now.
[00:03:10.680 --> 00:03:11.240] No, yeah.
[00:03:11.240 --> 00:03:20.520] I mean, yeah, we'd hung out a handful of times at conferences and then started a company together without actually getting together.
[00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:21.240] Right?
[00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:22.120] Yeah.
[00:03:22.760 --> 00:03:26.760] I mean, we'd been recording for a while, so we knew each other pretty well.
[00:03:26.760 --> 00:03:31.960] We knew each other from the internet and from these events that we'd gone to.
[00:03:32.600 --> 00:03:38.760] We were introduced in 2014 by our friend Chase Reeves at XOXO.
[00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:43.560] A big shout out to XOXO for bringing John and I together.
[00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:50.400] And I think we started talking in a food line, you know, like waiting for food or drinks or something.
[00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:53.360] And, you know, it's typical.
[00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:55.680] It's like Chase says, Hey, this is John Buddha.
[00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:58.000] And he's like, Hey, this is Justin Jackson.
[00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:02.000] And, you know, we're sitting there, standing there.
[00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:04.080] And it's kind of like, okay, well, what do you do?
[00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:04.720] You know?
[00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:09.760] And I said, well, I've been like working on this podcast called Product People.
[00:04:09.760 --> 00:04:15.200] And he said, oh, I've been working on this podcast hosting platform called Simplecast.
[00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:19.680] And that was like how we met.
[00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:24.080] Yeah, that's kind of what we bonded over, I guess, or talked about.
[00:04:24.080 --> 00:04:24.640] Yeah.
[00:04:24.960 --> 00:04:28.000] You with your Mountain Man beard, and I was clean-shaven at the time.
[00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:30.800] We have since swapped.
[00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:31.440] We flipped.
[00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:41.680] We'll put a photo in the show notes here or maybe the cover art that will show that when we met, I had this giant beard and you were, yeah, clean-shaven.
[00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:42.800] And yeah, we flipped.
[00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:46.240] Now you're rocking the beard and I'm clean-shaven.
[00:04:47.840 --> 00:04:51.200] I keep trying to go back to the beard, but it's a lot of commitment.
[00:04:51.200 --> 00:04:51.680] Yeah.
[00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:52.720] Especially for me.
[00:04:53.200 --> 00:04:55.760] Well, with that size of beard, too, I think it's a lot.
[00:04:56.320 --> 00:05:04.000] But it almost feels like with my facial hair, I have to grow it all the way out just to get like for it to even to work.
[00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:11.760] But anyway, so we met, we hung out, we ended up seeing each other every year kind of after that.
[00:05:11.760 --> 00:05:14.240] We worked on a few projects together.
[00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:19.920] And then in 2017, we were hanging out online somewhere.
[00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:21.840] I don't know where we were messaging.
[00:05:21.840 --> 00:05:22.960] I don't either.
[00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:27.360] And we had been keeping in touch with, like, here's what I'm working on.
[00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:29.120] Here's what you're working on.
[00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:33.640] You were working at Cards at the time, Cards Against Humanity.
[00:05:29.840 --> 00:05:34.040] Yep.
[00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:38.680] And you said, hey, I've been hacking on a little project.
[00:05:39.880 --> 00:05:47.240] And the original, was the initial idea like Cards was working on that new show, and that was why you were hacking on it?
[00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:55.880] Yeah, Cards was doing a holiday promotion where they were going to fund a podcast for a year that would release an episode every day of the week.
[00:05:57.720 --> 00:06:01.000] And they were looking at, you know, they needed a place to host it.
[00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:07.880] And they were looking at Simplecast, which I had built previously, but had, you know, things had gone sour with that.
[00:06:07.880 --> 00:06:17.480] So, and a lot of people had used it at the office just because I had been working on it even when I started at cards.
[00:06:18.440 --> 00:06:20.040] So that's what they knew.
[00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:30.520] And, you know, I was, it would have been fine if they had used it, but in the back of my mind, I was like, I kind of wanted to get back into this again anyway.
[00:06:30.520 --> 00:06:39.320] So I proposed the idea that I kind of build like a prototype of a hosting platform and that if it was ready by the end of the year, they could use it.
[00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:41.080] And that's what happened.
[00:06:41.400 --> 00:06:49.320] So that was like late, or like, I don't know, middle, late 2017, I started on it.
[00:06:49.320 --> 00:06:49.960] Yeah.
[00:06:49.960 --> 00:06:54.600] In our history doc, it says your first line of code was March 2017.
[00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:55.000] Oh, wow.
[00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:55.720] That's okay.
[00:06:55.720 --> 00:06:56.120] Yeah.
[00:06:57.880 --> 00:07:00.440] So early, I guess early 2017.
[00:07:00.440 --> 00:07:01.720] I mean, they did have to plan this.
[00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:04.120] They did have to plan this thing quite far in advance.
[00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:11.080] So I think maybe I had already started working on it even before they brought this up.
[00:07:12.520 --> 00:07:14.440] That's a little bit hazy, but.
[00:07:14.080 --> 00:07:24.400] But, you know, it's one of those projects where you just need something fun to work on in your free time to kind of keep you, I don't know, motivated or like learn new stuff.
[00:07:24.400 --> 00:07:29.520] And so I've been working on that a little bit on and off when I could.
[00:07:30.080 --> 00:07:34.240] And then, yeah, that podcast launched.
[00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:35.280] Things went pretty well.
[00:07:35.280 --> 00:07:41.360] And I think you had gotten in touch with me either late 2017 or early 2018?
[00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:54.080] I think it was late 2017 because, yeah, it was like probably November or December or even October, it could have been.
[00:07:54.080 --> 00:07:57.280] And you were telling me about this project you were working on.
[00:07:57.280 --> 00:08:00.560] You had already registered the domain name.
[00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:03.680] You had already incorporated the company.
[00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:05.360] Yeah, Stripe Atlas.
[00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:06.560] Yeah, that's right.
[00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:07.280] Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:07.280 --> 00:08:11.760] The company was actually officially incorporated in July 2017.
[00:08:11.760 --> 00:08:12.160] Okay.
[00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:35.760] And then as the year is winding down, so October, November, December, we were talking and I was like, I was looking for a new project and I'd been doing things on my own for a long time and was just kind of burnt out on it and was really wanting to do something in software again.
[00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:37.600] There's kind of two things.
[00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:41.440] There's like, who do I want to partner up with?
[00:08:41.760 --> 00:08:44.320] And, you know, I thought about Kyle Fox.
[00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:47.520] He was the one that I did the product people podcast with.
[00:08:47.520 --> 00:08:50.800] And because you want somebody you can trust.
[00:08:50.800 --> 00:08:54.800] You want somebody who has similar product sensibilities.
[00:08:54.800 --> 00:09:02.440] You want somebody who is a good builder who like can really execute at a high level.
[00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:07.640] And you know, I was thinking about okay, who could I partner with?
[00:09:07.640 --> 00:09:12.360] Or maybe I should buy a SaaS app and you know, do it that way.
[00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:19.880] And then you were telling me about this project, and I was just like, there were so many things bubbling in that at that point in podcasting.
[00:09:19.880 --> 00:09:22.280] And I'd been doing it for years.
[00:09:22.280 --> 00:09:29.000] And I was just like, it just felt like instantly for me, like, wow, that is a project that I could work on.
[00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:32.280] And that, and John's somebody I could work on a project with.
[00:09:32.280 --> 00:09:38.120] And we'd had a failed like project, not a failed, but a project we worked on together.
[00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:45.800] And I just remember it being like we had a good rapport while we were, you know, going back and forth.
[00:09:46.680 --> 00:09:49.560] It was a good, I don't know, test case for that.
[00:09:49.560 --> 00:09:50.040] Yeah.
[00:09:51.000 --> 00:09:58.680] And I remember, you know, I remember telling my wife that night, like, oh, you know, John's working on this thing.
[00:09:58.680 --> 00:10:06.120] And I'm kind of thinking of asking him if he'd want to work on it with me, if he'd want to partner up.
[00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:12.440] And she was just like, yes, that sounds exactly right.
[00:10:13.160 --> 00:10:16.280] Because so many things just seem to align.
[00:10:16.280 --> 00:10:22.840] You know, it was like podcasting is the perfect category for us to both be in together.
[00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:28.280] You've got our skills that seem to balance each other out so well.
[00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:29.640] We knew each other.
[00:10:29.640 --> 00:10:35.400] We had like, you know, I'd come home every year from XOXO and she'd say, who'd you hang out with?
[00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:39.240] And I'd be like, well, Chase and John Buddha and Dan and everybody.
[00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:45.760] And so she, it was just, I think she even recognized like this would be really good.
[00:10:45.760 --> 00:10:46.160] Yeah.
[00:10:46.160 --> 00:10:50.240] And that it was worth pursuing because I was like, I don't know if I should pursue this.
[00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:55.280] Like, maybe I should just go after something else or maybe John won't be into it.
[00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:58.560] And I mean, initially I wasn't, right?
[00:10:58.560 --> 00:11:00.000] Yeah, initially you weren't.
[00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:11.200] You know, I, yeah, I had been burned on simplecast and was sort of like deflated from working with someone who, you know, I thought I could trust and worked with well.
[00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:13.280] And it did not work out.
[00:11:13.280 --> 00:11:15.360] So, you know, I was building this thing.
[00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:17.600] Like, I could build this on my own and try to get it to work.
[00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:22.960] And like, you know, it might make enough money for me to live on or be a nice side income or something like that.
[00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:23.440] Yeah.
[00:11:23.760 --> 00:11:28.880] But yeah, for me, I mean, the more I thought about it, the more I was like, I don't, I don't know marketing.
[00:11:28.880 --> 00:11:30.880] I don't want to spend my time doing that.
[00:11:30.880 --> 00:11:31.360] Yeah.
[00:11:31.520 --> 00:11:33.040] Justin knows how to do that.
[00:11:33.040 --> 00:11:34.240] He has a big following.
[00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:38.400] He like is charismatic and outgoing on the internet.
[00:11:38.400 --> 00:11:43.840] And like, once I thought about that, I sort of switch flipped my head and I was like, yeah, that makes sense.
[00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:46.560] Might as well try this out.
[00:11:46.560 --> 00:11:47.280] Try it out.
[00:11:47.280 --> 00:11:48.320] And we took it seriously.
[00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:53.680] I mean, I think if you go back to those episodes, like you were like, let's sign some partnership docs.
[00:11:53.680 --> 00:11:54.800] Let's get some lawyers.
[00:11:55.360 --> 00:12:04.640] And I think, you know, I don't know if everyone should start a company like that, but yeah, that's how it worked for us.
[00:12:04.640 --> 00:12:07.920] We invited our first beta customers in March 2018.
[00:12:07.920 --> 00:12:11.440] August 1st, we did our official launch.
[00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:15.040] We got 100 customers from that official launch.
[00:12:15.040 --> 00:12:21.920] By March 2019, we were very close to hitting $10,000 a month in recurring revenue.
[00:12:22.160 --> 00:12:26.960] And then April 2019, I went full-time.
[00:12:27.280 --> 00:12:30.000] June of that year, we had 1,000 active customers.
[00:12:30.680 --> 00:12:38.920] And July, right before our one-year launch anniversary, you went full-time.
[00:12:38.920 --> 00:12:39.640] Yep.
[00:12:40.280 --> 00:12:45.000] And we've got a bunch of questions from our audience.
[00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:50.040] I don't know if we're going to be able to get to all of these, but I want to thank everyone that gave us questions.
[00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:55.880] And yeah, we're just going to go through them in honor of this four-year anniversary.
[00:12:55.880 --> 00:13:01.000] And hopefully, I think it'll be fun for you and I.
[00:13:01.880 --> 00:13:15.320] But hopefully also it gives people a sense of the significance of all of this, of this time, of building a company on the internet with people you didn't grow up with and didn't know previously.
[00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:18.120] Yeah, through a pandemic.
[00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:19.800] Through a pandemic.
[00:13:19.800 --> 00:13:22.360] I mean, it is incredible.
[00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:22.760] It's funny.
[00:13:22.760 --> 00:13:32.840] Before we get into the questions, like, you know, you'd think like this morning I'd be preparing for this call or something, but I was actually just like working on code because it's fun.
[00:13:32.840 --> 00:13:33.400] Yeah.
[00:13:33.400 --> 00:13:37.000] You know, like I really enjoy it still.
[00:13:37.160 --> 00:13:40.920] I'm not sitting here like going, you know, going through our history and looking up everything.
[00:13:40.920 --> 00:13:42.840] I'm just like, I want to fix this thing because it's fun.
[00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:43.080] Yeah.
[00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:44.520] To be able to wake up every day.
[00:13:44.520 --> 00:13:45.080] That's great.
[00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:45.480] Yeah.
[00:13:45.800 --> 00:13:46.600] It is.
[00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:47.880] It really is.
[00:13:47.880 --> 00:13:52.840] And I hope, I mean, I know a lot of people listen to the show because they've got a dream.
[00:13:53.160 --> 00:14:01.560] They've got a dream about building their own indie SaaS, their own indie software company.
[00:14:01.880 --> 00:14:08.440] And what we've tried to do on this show is provide a, you know, a balanced look of what that looks like.
[00:14:08.800 --> 00:14:10.440] Um, and we got lucky.
[00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:11.640] Ours worked out.
[00:14:11.640 --> 00:14:12.920] Often they don't.
[00:14:12.880 --> 00:14:20.000] And so, and so you know, people along for the ride got this uh kind of ascendant story, which is I think fun.
[00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:31.760] But it, the other thing I've tried to communicate is the positive side, which is this really has changed our life in a in in a really positive way.
[00:14:31.760 --> 00:14:44.960] And uh, the success is is definitely like we cherish the success, we enjoy the success, the success has definitely made our lives better.
[00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:49.040] Yeah, definitely don't take it for granted, and we definitely don't take it for granted.
[00:14:49.040 --> 00:14:52.400] Yeah, all right, let's get into some of these.
[00:14:52.400 --> 00:15:00.960] Gerhard Lazu says, What is the secret to your calm and easy way of running transistor as a company?
[00:15:01.280 --> 00:15:06.800] Well, I think part of it is our personalities, uh, what we wanted.
[00:15:06.800 --> 00:15:23.840] You know, when you and I were talking, even when we were dreaming about the previous projects that we did together, I think the motivation was, you know, we want to have a good life, we want to not have to work for IBM.
[00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:35.040] We want to, you know, not that there's anything with IBM, but just like we knew what we wanted in terms of a work-life balance, I think.
[00:15:35.040 --> 00:15:36.400] Yeah, I think we knew that going into it.
[00:15:36.400 --> 00:15:39.120] I mean, it was definitely tricky at first.
[00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:41.520] Like, I was working full-time.
[00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:44.960] You were, you know, you were still working on things too.
[00:15:46.160 --> 00:15:52.400] Yeah, it's interesting looking back and like, you know, why I would want to run my own company or why we would.
[00:15:53.920 --> 00:15:55.760] It's never really about the money.
[00:15:56.880 --> 00:15:58.880] It's like, I want to work with good people.
[00:15:58.880 --> 00:16:00.440] I want to be able to set my own schedule.
[00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:04.360] I want to not have to go into an office from nine to five.
[00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:07.080] Even though, like, generally, I work nine to five.
[00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:14.680] But within that time, there's so much freedom to just do, you know, schedule your day however you want.
[00:16:14.680 --> 00:16:15.240] Yeah.
[00:16:15.560 --> 00:16:23.160] And I mean, I think, especially, I mean, the challenge sometimes is when you have all that freedom is to actually take advantage of it.
[00:16:23.160 --> 00:16:34.120] But when we are in that mode of, you know, hey, hey, everybody, I'm taking the afternoon off to go swimming and for a run.
[00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:39.320] That is, that lifestyle does create calm.
[00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:39.800] Yeah.
[00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:44.920] And I would also say two more things.
[00:16:44.920 --> 00:16:47.560] One, our handbook, I'll link to it.
[00:16:47.560 --> 00:16:52.120] We have these values that we've kind of added to this list over time.
[00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:56.040] One is our emotional and physical well-being is our number one priority.
[00:16:56.040 --> 00:16:59.640] It's worth investing money and time to take care of ourselves.
[00:16:59.960 --> 00:17:11.240] We've, you know, we've benefited from therapy and other ways of taking care of our minds and our bodies.
[00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:19.800] And I think for us to have that in there from the beginning, you know, I'd be like, message you.
[00:17:19.800 --> 00:17:21.880] And initially, there's always some nervousness.
[00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:27.240] You know, I'd be like, hey, man, I am not doing very good and I just need to take a day off.
[00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:33.400] And you were just so gracious and accepting about that from the beginning.
[00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:39.520] And I think that's led to this, you know, calm and easy way of running the company.
[00:17:39.520 --> 00:17:46.160] Is that we just were not working super hard on like KPIs.
[00:17:44.360 --> 00:17:51.120] You know, it's not like we've got a million things we've got to record, we've got to hit every month.
[00:17:51.120 --> 00:17:55.840] We've always kind of just found this nice balance.
[00:17:56.160 --> 00:18:12.320] And I'd say the other thing is that something else that really helped us have become is that our market, our category, podcast hosting, the momentum is just perfect for us.
[00:18:12.320 --> 00:18:12.960] Yeah.
[00:18:13.280 --> 00:18:22.480] It's not like if you listen to Peldy's story with Balsamek, he pushed launch on that and he said it was like holding onto a rocket ship with his fingernails.
[00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:27.680] It was just so crazy and he had to hire people right away and he was not having a good time.
[00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:29.760] Yeah, I don't think I would have enjoyed that.
[00:18:29.760 --> 00:18:31.040] I don't think you would have either.
[00:18:31.040 --> 00:18:31.440] No.
[00:18:31.760 --> 00:18:33.840] It would have been, it would have been too much.
[00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:35.840] And then the reverse is bad too.
[00:18:35.840 --> 00:18:39.760] If you don't have enough momentum in the market, then you're stressed.
[00:18:39.760 --> 00:18:48.880] You're always trying to do things, push things forward to try to make it happen, to try to get that machine running.
[00:18:49.200 --> 00:19:02.000] And for us, we launched, it wasn't like it was, you know, amazing right off the bat, but you know, 100 paying customers on our launch day, that's incredible.
[00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:02.800] Yeah, that's great.
[00:19:02.800 --> 00:19:14.400] I guess the flip side of this is, and I hope we never get to this point, but like we haven't really been through a period that is a massive struggle, right?
[00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:15.040] Yeah.
[00:19:15.040 --> 00:19:22.080] Nothing horrible has happened, nothing catastrophic, nothing like we've lost half of our customer base in a day.
[00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:31.720] I think we'd probably work together and figure that out as a you know a four-person team now and yeah, and figure out how to move forward.
[00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:36.200] But I don't think that sort of struggle has really hit us yet, yeah.
[00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:46.520] Which you know, it certainly couldn't, but like that will definitely test our uh calm and easygoing company.
[00:19:46.520 --> 00:19:49.240] Yeah, it's true, it's true.
[00:19:49.240 --> 00:20:03.480] Uh, yeah, although I think certainly having a company with margin, so we've got lots of financial margin still, lots of time margin, lots of energy margin.
[00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:25.400] Um, we've never had to have an all I've been on teams where there's an all hands meeting and it's like, all right, guys, shit hit the fan, and it's actually like as an employee, it's always like often it's not your fault, like sometimes it's mismanagement, or sometimes it's just the economy or some other external force or whatever.
[00:20:25.400 --> 00:20:32.840] But it's like shit hit the fan, we all got to come together and like you know, work the weekends and work the nights to get this done.
[00:20:32.840 --> 00:20:41.560] Yeah, and I think one nice thing is it just feels like we have lots of energy in the bank if we ever need to do that.
[00:20:41.560 --> 00:20:51.240] Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, I think part of the reason we have that energy in the bank is that our company is calm and we're not like you know going towards burnout.
[00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:55.960] Yeah, we're like maintaining a steady line of like excitement and rest.
[00:20:55.960 --> 00:21:00.840] And we, you know, we allow Jason and Helen to do the same.
[00:21:00.840 --> 00:21:04.520] Like if they need to take time off, they can do that basically whenever they want.
[00:21:05.560 --> 00:21:05.800] Yeah.
[00:21:05.280 --> 00:21:11.000] Um, you know, take the day if it's like a Wednesday and Jason's like, I'm just done for the day.
[00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:11.960] I'm going to check out.
[00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:13.800] It's like, yeah, that's fair.
[00:21:13.800 --> 00:21:17.200] Like, you can't just sit at your desk and force yourself to work.
[00:21:14.840 --> 00:21:20.000] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:22.880] All right, let's go through some of these a bit faster.
[00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:29.600] We got Marcela who says, What has been the most challenging aspect of the past four years and how do you wish you handled it better?
[00:21:30.320 --> 00:21:31.600] The hard-hitting questions.
[00:21:31.600 --> 00:21:35.840] Yeah, I think just quickly, like the pandemic was difficult.
[00:21:35.840 --> 00:21:47.680] Uh, whenever there's something political in the U.S., it is difficult on our team, it is, yeah, not seeing each other during the pandemic that was way too long.
[00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:57.280] Uh, and generally, I would say so far, like John said, we've been lucky inside the company, not much has been that challenging.
[00:21:57.280 --> 00:22:02.640] I think the things that are challenging are the things that happen outside of the company, you know.
[00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:12.560] Uh, and so it's things in my personal life have you know sometimes been difficult, or like external events like COVID or a recession.
[00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:15.280] Yeah, those are challenging.
[00:22:15.280 --> 00:22:24.160] Chris Enns, our amazing, intrepid podcast editor who's been editing this show from the beginning, asks he has a few questions.
[00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:27.680] He says, Where do you see Transistor at your 10-year anniversary?
[00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:32.720] And then Jason Zuk had a similar question: Where do you see transistor in five years or 10 years?
[00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:34.240] Is there an exit?
[00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:35.360] All that kind of stuff.
[00:22:35.360 --> 00:22:41.920] Yeah, so five years will be 2027.
[00:22:42.320 --> 00:22:43.520] Seven, yep.
[00:22:43.840 --> 00:22:45.600] Um, I don't know.
[00:22:45.600 --> 00:22:46.800] Um, any thoughts?
[00:22:46.800 --> 00:22:48.080] Five, ten years?
[00:22:48.080 --> 00:22:49.040] Yeah, it's hard to say.
[00:22:49.040 --> 00:22:56.640] I mean, I know we want to keep the company small, whether it's still four people or if there's more.
[00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:58.640] That's kind of an open question.
[00:22:59.840 --> 00:23:09.000] I know personally, I don't want to get it too big because I don't want to have to have to feel like I'm managing people instead of building things, right?
[00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:09.640] Yep.
[00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:13.480] Who knows how the podcast ecosystem or market's going to change?
[00:23:14.520 --> 00:23:15.480] That's hard to tell.
[00:23:16.120 --> 00:23:16.600] Yeah.
[00:23:16.600 --> 00:23:21.560] Obviously, we try to adapt to it as we can as it happens, kind of in real time.
[00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:40.040] And as far as an exit, I mean, if it if that happens in five years, like I don't know if the market to be acquired is sort of changing or drying up, or there's been a lot of acquisition in the podcast space.
[00:23:40.040 --> 00:23:40.520] Yeah.
[00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:46.280] But that's something we're also going to talk about in October when we all get together for the first time.
[00:23:46.280 --> 00:23:49.960] Is like, where do we want to go with this?
[00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:54.840] Do we want to do we want to build towards maybe selling it?
[00:23:54.840 --> 00:23:56.520] And what does that look like?
[00:23:56.520 --> 00:23:57.000] Yeah.
[00:23:57.480 --> 00:23:58.840] We just don't have the answers to that.
[00:23:58.840 --> 00:24:04.040] I mean, if I was still working on it in five years like I am now, I think I'd be perfectly happy.
[00:24:04.040 --> 00:24:04.760] Yeah, me too.
[00:24:04.760 --> 00:24:25.880] And I think the only existential question is like, it would be nice for, and actually, I don't think you have this pressure as much as I do, but you know, with the family and everything else, I think I sometimes feel like, ah, it'd be nice to have a couple million in the bank just, you know, just there.
[00:24:27.320 --> 00:24:39.320] But the, I mean, the great thing is if we continue to be as profitable as we are right now in five years, it's very likely that, you know, I could have a couple million in the bank.
[00:24:40.040 --> 00:24:53.040] And that, you know, then I might be more way more at ease and way more willing to say, yeah, let's just ride this out no matter what happens with the transistor mark, the transistor market, the podcast market.
[00:24:53.040 --> 00:24:59.520] Yeah, I mean, realistically, like we could technically just put this thing on autopilot right now and like go on vacation for six months.
[00:24:59.520 --> 00:25:00.080] Yeah.
[00:25:00.080 --> 00:25:02.640] But we're not going to do that.
[00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:04.000] We should A-B test that.
[00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:04.720] It could.
[00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:09.040] It could technically run itself for the most part.
[00:25:09.040 --> 00:25:11.440] I mean, you know, there's customer service, obviously, and stuff like that.
[00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:13.200] Things need to be fixed and things are changing.
[00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:17.440] But like, you know, if we ever got sick of it, that's an option.
[00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:18.240] Yeah.
[00:25:18.560 --> 00:25:20.160] That would be a fun A-B test.
[00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:21.520] Just go, okay.
[00:25:21.840 --> 00:25:23.600] John and I are taking six months off.
[00:25:23.600 --> 00:25:26.400] So then Jason and Helen just run the company.
[00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:27.840] And then we switch.
[00:25:27.840 --> 00:25:31.040] Then it's like, we come back in six months.
[00:25:31.120 --> 00:25:32.720] It's like, oh, wow, what's going on here?
[00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:35.040] And they're like, everything's great.
[00:25:35.040 --> 00:25:36.320] You know, we're up into the right.
[00:25:36.320 --> 00:25:37.120] It's like beauty.
[00:25:37.120 --> 00:25:43.120] And then they take six months off and we just, you know, run the company.
[00:25:43.120 --> 00:25:44.400] Sabbatical for six months.
[00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:44.800] Yeah.
[00:25:44.800 --> 00:25:45.440] Yeah.
[00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:48.960] I love this question from GiggleQuick on Twitter.
[00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:50.400] What is SAS?
[00:25:54.240 --> 00:26:03.760] I responded on Twitter, but that's always like people, you know, that ask me what I do, and I'll say, oh, well, we have a software company that does podcast hosting.
[00:26:03.760 --> 00:26:06.000] And they're like, oh, what's your podcast?
[00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:11.920] And I was like, ah, well, it's called Build Your SaaS, which means software as a service.
[00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:14.080] It's like a niche thing.
[00:26:15.040 --> 00:26:18.960] Anybody outside of software doesn't know what that is.
[00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:19.520] Yeah.
[00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:24.640] Matthias asks, Do you ever feel like you're not doing enough?
[00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:30.520] What I mean is when things are taking off and margin is increasing, you might start to become comfortable.
[00:26:29.840 --> 00:26:35.400] The initial hunger might start to wear off and you maybe you enjoy the fruit of the work you did.
[00:26:35.720 --> 00:26:43.000] But sometimes I feel that I might become too comfortable and then have this feeling that competitors will be more hungry than me.
[00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:44.200] I would love your thoughts on this.
[00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:45.640] Is this something you struggle with?
[00:26:46.520 --> 00:26:47.880] Yeah, I think I do.
[00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:50.760] I mean, it's always in the back of my mind.
[00:26:50.760 --> 00:26:54.680] Like, I'm sure there's always more we could do.
[00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:58.440] I don't think it's very beneficial to like think about it all the time.
[00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:03.320] I think that would just cause a lot of stress and anxiety.
[00:27:03.800 --> 00:27:04.200] Yeah.
[00:27:04.840 --> 00:27:15.480] But I think it's good to be aware of your competitors and like, you know, how they're moving and kind of what they're doing and things like that.
[00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:17.080] And we've, you know, we've noticed that before.
[00:27:17.080 --> 00:27:21.720] We've definitely reacted sometimes to other competitors in certain ways.
[00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:23.320] But yeah, I don't know.
[00:27:23.320 --> 00:27:26.600] I don't know if I necessarily worry that we're not doing enough.
[00:27:26.600 --> 00:27:29.080] I think we do a lot with the small team we have.
[00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:30.040] Yeah.
[00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:48.760] Yeah, I think there is, this is kind of my, whatever, my universal theory of bootstrapping or indie SAS or whatever, which is you need to find a momentum, a pace that allows you to go the distance.
[00:27:49.080 --> 00:27:53.720] And, you know, I just, I've, I've gone on two runs this year.
[00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:58.600] I did my first, my, my annual run, and then I'm like, I'll try to do another one.
[00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:04.760] But if I, if I don't have a reasonable pace, I'm just not going to be able to go the distance.
[00:28:04.760 --> 00:28:10.440] And so, sure, I can run a faster mile, but that means I won't be able to run the next mile.
[00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:11.000] Right.
[00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:28.480] And it's really tempting to stay up at night worrying about your competitors and then writing a big list of all the things you need to do to compete and then just working yourself to the bone to try to get there.
[00:28:29.120 --> 00:28:31.440] And I'm not saying there's not times to do that.
[00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:34.480] Like, sure, at the beginning, we did feel this pressure.
[00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:39.520] We needed to get to feature parity with our competitors.
[00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:46.080] But hopefully, the market you're in has enough draw.
[00:28:46.080 --> 00:28:51.920] And really, product can't be your only magnet.
[00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:57.440] You've got to have some other things in your corner.
[00:28:57.760 --> 00:29:02.880] And, you know, for us, that was network, it was skills, it was our history.
[00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:07.680] It was us understanding the customer, I think, better than a lot of our competitors.
[00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:14.240] It was the fact that John is really good at building product, and hopefully, I'm okay at promoting it.
[00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:20.320] It's having an audience, it's being able to, you know, reach out and collaborate with other people.
[00:29:20.320 --> 00:29:22.000] It's being willing to ask for help.
[00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:30.160] Like, you have to have more in your corner than just you cranking out features, hoping to get ahead of the competitors.
[00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:40.800] There are lots of products that are better than the incumbent, better features, whatever, but they're missing everything else.
[00:29:40.800 --> 00:29:54.960] And the way, you know, the winners or even like the marginal winners are not determined just by, you know, you having more features than your competitors.
[00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:55.520] Yeah.
[00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:00.680] I finished a book recently called Running the Dream, which is really good.
[00:29:59.840 --> 00:30:06.840] And it was about this non-he was not an elite runner.
[00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:18.280] And he ended up, he's a writer, he's a journalist, and he ended up wanting to join an elite team and training for the Chicago Marathon and document it.
[00:30:18.280 --> 00:30:21.880] But he was a really good runner, but he was not like, you know, he's not going to win a marathon.
[00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:23.320] He's not going to the Olympics.
[00:30:24.840 --> 00:30:31.080] And it was all about him like training with this team for six months or whatever in Arizona and Flagstaff.
[00:30:31.080 --> 00:30:33.640] And it's kind of similar with building a product.
[00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:38.920] Like he's not going out there and running his marathon pace every day, all the time.
[00:30:39.560 --> 00:30:55.400] There's like moments where you're going to train for speed and there's other stuff you're going to do, but most of the time he's, you know, he's training at like, you know, a minute and a minute and a half slower than his marathon time, but doing, you know, putting in longer workouts and training up different things.
[00:30:55.400 --> 00:31:02.600] But there's also like he needs rest days and he has like massages and physical therapy and stuff like that that all plays into it.
[00:31:02.600 --> 00:31:07.560] So you can't just like go balls out all the time and hope that you're going to reach your goal.
[00:31:07.560 --> 00:31:08.040] Yeah.
[00:31:08.840 --> 00:31:09.880] Anyway, it's a great book.
[00:31:09.880 --> 00:31:15.160] It doesn't really have anything to do with running a company, but pretty fascinating to read.
[00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:22.600] It sounds like that's actually exactly kind of what you need to be because these parallels are what you should be looking at.
[00:31:22.600 --> 00:31:26.280] So sure, business is different and every market in business is different.
[00:31:26.280 --> 00:31:27.720] Every industry is different.
[00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:35.000] And this is also why I'm so big on choosing your market because some markets you do just have to run harder.
[00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:39.960] And if you don't want to do that, then don't go into that category.
[00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:52.960] You know, if I know that being a car salesman would require a certain level of effort every day and hustle every day and whatever.
[00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:56.000] And that's why I chose not to be a car salesperson.
[00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:57.520] I don't want to do that.
[00:31:57.520 --> 00:32:03.440] So you have to choose and find a fit that matches what you want.
[00:32:03.760 --> 00:32:09.600] And it's not easy, but yeah, I think it's worth trying for.
[00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:13.360] Okay, so Jason Zuk says, Do you think we've reached peak podcast?
[00:32:13.360 --> 00:32:15.600] Or is there more overall podcast growth?
[00:32:15.600 --> 00:32:18.800] It kind of feels like there's a certain age group that enjoys podcasts.
[00:32:18.800 --> 00:32:20.560] I think he's saying older people.
[00:32:20.560 --> 00:32:24.880] Younger generation lives on TikTok, YouTube, Twitch, et cetera.
[00:32:25.280 --> 00:32:27.600] So I don't think we've reached peak podcast.
[00:32:27.600 --> 00:32:30.560] I think podcasting had a bump during the pandemic.
[00:32:30.560 --> 00:32:35.680] I think we're just going to return to 10-15% growth a year.
[00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:37.680] There's different ways of measuring that.
[00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:40.320] Advertising growth is going to grow faster than that, I think.
[00:32:40.320 --> 00:32:41.600] It already is.
[00:32:41.600 --> 00:32:53.840] But in terms of listenership, I think we're just back to our regular cadence of 10 to 15% growth in terms of new listeners every year.
[00:32:53.840 --> 00:33:01.920] There are global markets that are growing much faster than that for podcasting: Brazil, Mexico.
[00:33:02.560 --> 00:33:05.440] So there's lots of growth there.
[00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:15.360] And then there's also one of the benefits of having four kids who are all Gen Z is that I get to see how their lives kind of progress.
[00:33:15.360 --> 00:33:19.280] And around 16, 17, they start listening to podcasts.
[00:33:19.280 --> 00:33:26.800] Now, maybe it's because they're my kids, but trust me, I don't think they're doing it because of dad.
[00:33:27.040 --> 00:33:29.120] They find these shows on their own.
[00:33:29.120 --> 00:33:35.720] Sometimes they discover them through YouTube and Instagram, and then they start listening based on that.
[00:33:35.720 --> 00:33:44.600] There also seems to be, I'll link to this report my daughter did on the Transistor blog, but there seems to be this transition.
[00:33:44.600 --> 00:33:48.200] You know, my daughter left home and now she's going to university.
[00:33:48.200 --> 00:33:57.800] She's trying to figure out what it is to be an adult, and she's looking for models to follow who are not her parents.
[00:33:57.800 --> 00:34:07.960] And she has, she says her and her friends are increasingly reaching out to podcasts to get a sense of what it means to be an adult.
[00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:12.520] And so they're looking, she likes listening to podcasts by millennials.
[00:34:12.520 --> 00:34:16.840] So people that are just ahead of her and hearing their experience.
[00:34:16.840 --> 00:34:29.960] And, you know, it's like psychology, it's productivity, it's, you know, self-care, all sorts of topics that a young adult might be interested in.
[00:34:29.960 --> 00:34:32.440] So I think we're not at peak podcasts.
[00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:37.560] I think it's going to continue to increase, but we're back to the regular pace.
[00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:43.160] John, what's something you've gotten better at over the past four years?
[00:34:43.160 --> 00:34:45.560] Noah Bragg asks this question.
[00:34:45.560 --> 00:34:47.400] Oh, that's a good question.
[00:34:49.240 --> 00:34:51.160] I think we were just talking about this the other day.
[00:34:52.200 --> 00:35:05.480] I think I've gotten a lot better at, I don't know if taking criticism is the right one, but having my ideas and assumptions challenged as far as the product goes.
[00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:05.960] Yeah.
[00:35:05.960 --> 00:35:08.600] Especially after we hired Jason.
[00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:12.760] But you, you know, you and I have kind of went back and forth on a few things too.
[00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:21.440] And, you know, I can get a little bullheaded and proud of what I built and not want to change something or like a line of copy.
[00:35:21.520 --> 00:35:23.440] I'm like, oh, yeah, that's fine.
[00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:23.920] Yeah.
[00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:30.000] But we work through it and ultimately, like, whatever comes out in the end is far better than what I did.
[00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:30.320] Yeah.
[00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:30.640] Yeah.
[00:35:30.640 --> 00:35:32.080] No, I think that's true, actually, John.
[00:35:32.160 --> 00:35:42.080] I think, I think it's also a matter of as you get, as you work with somebody for longer, you start to recognize the pattern.
[00:35:42.080 --> 00:35:50.000] So it's like, initially, I might like challenge you on something and then get rebuffed, but I just know that's just part of our process.
[00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:50.720] You know what I mean?
[00:35:50.720 --> 00:35:52.800] It's like, okay, well, I'm going to.
[00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:58.880] And in the same way that I might present an idea and then you, you know, might critique it right away.
[00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:03.520] I just know that's part of our process of figuring out what we're going to do.
[00:36:03.520 --> 00:36:10.000] And ultimately, it does, I think, create a better outcome when we do do that.
[00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:10.640] Yeah.
[00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:12.400] So, yeah, I'd agree with that.
[00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:13.520] I think that's great.
[00:36:13.520 --> 00:36:14.640] How about you?
[00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:17.440] I think for me, you know, better is sure.
[00:36:17.440 --> 00:36:24.080] I think I've gotten better at some things, but I think a better way of putting it is I just have more awareness.
[00:36:24.240 --> 00:36:40.320] One thing I brought up quite a bit is like, I just know that if you and I are not connecting with a call once a week, that we just can't let that go for too long or it's not good for our relationship.
[00:36:40.640 --> 00:36:48.240] In the same way, I think you and I need at least one in-person meetup every year.
[00:36:48.560 --> 00:36:52.400] And if it goes too long, it really affects our relationship.
[00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:52.960] Yeah.
[00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:57.560] And so I think having awareness about those things.
[00:36:57.560 --> 00:37:12.200] And I think my default when we started was just feeling like, you know, I can just be in my little, my little cave working on my stuff, and you're in your cave working on your stuff.
[00:37:12.200 --> 00:37:15.320] And why would we need to interact?
[00:37:15.640 --> 00:37:19.960] And I'm just realizing how important that is.
[00:37:20.600 --> 00:37:29.480] And when we don't have it, it is, yeah, I just think it's not good for the relationship.
[00:37:29.480 --> 00:37:31.320] And I can also see it with our team.
[00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:37.320] You know, we, I was kind of hesitant to do any sort of meeting for a long time.
[00:37:37.640 --> 00:37:44.120] And just having this standing weekly meeting every Thursday, it's just good for us.
[00:37:44.120 --> 00:37:45.640] It's good for us emotionally.
[00:37:45.640 --> 00:37:48.040] It's good for us as human beings.
[00:37:49.400 --> 00:38:00.120] And sometimes I treat myself like just a working robot, like a robot that just does stuff and goes home at the end of the night.
[00:38:00.120 --> 00:38:05.880] And it's been nice to recognize like this human part of it.
[00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:21.080] Like part of the reason we're doing this is so that I can connect with you, so that we can connect with Jason and Helen, so we can have this human experience of laughing together, working on something together, trying to overcome challenges together.
[00:38:21.080 --> 00:38:23.320] That part has been really great.
[00:38:23.640 --> 00:38:24.680] I would agree with that.
[00:38:24.680 --> 00:38:29.320] What was the lowest point or equivalent of rock bottom in your four-year transistor history?
[00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:33.240] I don't know if there's, again, we haven't really had anything.
[00:38:33.240 --> 00:38:51.680] I think at the beginning, something we sometimes gloss over is just how hard it was on John to be working a full-time job and coming home evenings and weekends, and how hard it was on me financially to have just waiting on this other thing that we were investing so much time in.
[00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:55.360] I think the lowest point for me was certainly near the beginning, which is unfortunate.
[00:38:55.440 --> 00:39:00.560] I mean, it's how it happened, but like I was just done at my old job, right?
[00:39:00.560 --> 00:39:01.520] I was like checked out.
[00:39:01.520 --> 00:39:02.560] I didn't want to be there.
[00:39:02.560 --> 00:39:04.880] I didn't want to come in in the morning.
[00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:08.560] I was excited about this other thing that I was working on with you.
[00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:19.360] And, you know, it affected my relationships and stuff because I was not in a good mood or, you know, needed to spend time with this other thing when I was done working at the other job.
[00:39:19.680 --> 00:39:20.320] Yes.
[00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:26.640] So I'm, yeah, I'm glad I could leave my other job as quickly as I could.
[00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:27.600] Yeah.
[00:39:27.600 --> 00:39:28.160] Yeah.
[00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:28.800] Yeah.
[00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:40.160] And in retrospect, this is why I've softened a little bit on pure bootstrapping versus raising money because, I mean, ultimately now we're really happy that it worked out.
[00:39:40.160 --> 00:39:51.040] But, you know, there's a world in which things took longer and it really affected both of us mentally and that could have been really bad.
[00:39:51.040 --> 00:40:10.400] So, you know, if you need, if you've got a good idea and a market that wants that idea and you feel like you've got built-in advantages and you can convince somebody to give you 100 grand or 200 grand to build, focus on building the product for a year, I think that can be really beneficial.
[00:40:10.720 --> 00:40:18.960] Daniel Lazar, who is host of the For a Living podcast, great transistor customer.
[00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:26.960] He's got a few good questions, but I think we only have time for: what have you learned about partnership that you wish the world could hear?
[00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:51.720] This kind of goes off the other one we just had, but another thought I had is just, and this applies, I think, to all relationships: is a partnership is a tension between individuals working on themselves and figuring out their own issues and then bringing that to the table, hopefully with someone else who is also working on their issues.
[00:40:52.600 --> 00:41:07.480] And I think one of the reasons it's been great to be with John is that we kind of bonded over mental health stuff, like sharing personal experiences from our lives.
[00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:17.960] And so I already knew he was the kind of person who is working on himself and that I could talk about, you know, just life stuff with.
[00:41:19.160 --> 00:41:33.080] And I think it would be challenging to be in a partnership with someone who's not self-aware, with someone who's not going to therapy, with someone who's not taking care of themselves.
[00:41:33.720 --> 00:41:36.200] And that often doesn't get talked about.
[00:41:36.600 --> 00:41:42.520] So often people are looking for a technical co-founder or they're looking for a marketing co-founder.
[00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:45.160] And those are both good things to look for.
[00:41:45.160 --> 00:41:51.400] But there's this other layer of, and it can even be cheesy.
[00:41:51.400 --> 00:42:01.800] Like, you know, sometimes I'll, you know, we haven't done this in a while, but I would share it with John, like one of those cheesy personality quizzes.
[00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:02.200] Yeah.
[00:42:02.200 --> 00:42:04.440] And we would go through those together.
[00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:14.960] And there is something about that of working on yourself and then coming together and then working on your relationship.
[00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:20.640] But it can only really work if both parties are motivated in that way.
[00:42:14.600 --> 00:42:21.200] I would agree with that.
[00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:28.880] Yeah, I mean, it's, I would say, yeah, the partnership is about a lot more than just the business.
[00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:29.360] Yeah.
[00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:29.600] Right?
[00:42:29.600 --> 00:42:34.640] Like, that's definitely a big part of it, but there's just so much more that goes on there.
[00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:35.600] Yeah.
[00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:36.240] Yeah.
[00:42:36.240 --> 00:42:44.000] And I mean, to make this like more real, I mean, there was a time during the pandemic, I was really worried about you, John.
[00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:44.400] Yeah.
[00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:50.400] Like, just the lockdowns in Chicago, and, you know, you weren't able to get out and exercise.
[00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:55.760] And you were, I had a family full, so I had a house full of people, but you're in your apartment by yourself.
[00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:58.320] And I was definitely worried about you.
[00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:15.840] And I think that kind of care and that also just like being the kind of partners that can encourage each other to say, hey, you know, take care of yourself, you know, is really, really key.
[00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:17.440] So great question, Daniel.
[00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:25.840] Min Fuk Tran says, it would be fun and refreshing to hear what has been the most fun and memorable experience during your four-year journey.
[00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:35.200] Most startup podcasts are about how to succeed, but rarely talk about the things they remember, you know, after the success, I guess.
[00:43:35.520 --> 00:43:36.720] Fun.
[00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:45.600] I mean, this is kind of, again, about our friendship and relationship, but like it's fun snowboarding together.
[00:43:46.560 --> 00:43:49.760] It's fun going to Portland together.
[00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:58.560] You know, I think those for me have been the shared experiences have been in person have been some of the most fun.
[00:43:58.560 --> 00:43:59.720] Yeah, definitely.
[00:44:00.040 --> 00:44:04.280] Which is funny because then it just makes me feel like, why don't we invest in that more?
[00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:06.360] Yeah, we don't really do it that often.
[00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:06.520] Yeah.
[00:44:07.080 --> 00:44:11.160] I mean, COVID kind of changed everything, but we certainly could.
[00:44:11.160 --> 00:44:12.120] Because, yeah, it's great.
[00:44:12.120 --> 00:44:19.000] I mean, you know, whether it's just a meetup where we work on some stuff or just hang out or talk about life.
[00:44:19.160 --> 00:44:22.120] I would also say, I think our staff meetings have been fun.
[00:44:22.120 --> 00:44:22.680] Yeah.
[00:44:22.680 --> 00:44:26.440] Just like we often are laughing during those.
[00:44:26.440 --> 00:44:28.680] So, yeah, I think that's been fun.
[00:44:28.680 --> 00:44:38.760] And I would also say, you know, in terms of fun and memorable, it's like, yeah, when we release something, we're really proud of.
[00:44:39.400 --> 00:44:51.800] And just, I think you and I were talking about this the other day, but with these achievement badges we just released, I just loved like seeing how that idea kind of percolated up through Slack.
[00:44:51.800 --> 00:45:00.520] And then you and Jason kind of took hold of it and then went and got those badges designed and then, you know, worked on the thing.
[00:45:00.520 --> 00:45:05.080] And then we continued to see evidence that people wanted it.
[00:45:05.080 --> 00:45:13.480] And then eventually to get it out in the world and to have people respond in such an exuberant way, like our customers just love it.
[00:45:13.480 --> 00:45:15.240] Yeah, and that was a long feature.
[00:45:15.240 --> 00:45:21.080] I mean, we had those badges done in like November or December of 2021 and they were done.
[00:45:21.400 --> 00:45:25.800] And we just sort of like had other stuff to do, but they were sitting there waiting for us to build it.
[00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:30.120] We built parts of it at a time and then finally finished it up.
[00:45:30.120 --> 00:45:31.320] But yeah, that was fun.
[00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:44.400] That was uh, I mean, for me, the whole thing is like, and I tell people this all the time, like when they ask what I'm doing and if I like it, it's like I get to come to work and work with three great friends.
[00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:47.040] And like, Jason was a great friend before this.
[00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:47.200] Yeah.
[00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:52.960] And it's just like, you know, there's always like, is this a good idea?
[00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:55.600] Like, how is this going to change our relationship?
[00:45:55.600 --> 00:45:56.000] Yeah.
[00:45:56.160 --> 00:45:58.800] And I also don't see him physically often enough either.
[00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:00.800] And he's not that far away.
[00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:06.960] But like, it's great just coming to work with like friends you enjoy being around.
[00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:07.440] Yeah.
[00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:08.000] Every day.
[00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:08.320] Yeah.
[00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:10.160] Like it's really absolutely.
[00:46:10.160 --> 00:46:14.400] I don't think, you know, I don't think a lot of people have that necessarily.
[00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:21.600] I mean, you know, you can make friends at work and at the office, but it's like, it's not always the same, especially with bigger companies.
[00:46:21.600 --> 00:46:23.040] Like, yeah.
[00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:28.320] But yeah, it's just which is one reason it would be hard to sell.
[00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:28.720] Yeah.
[00:46:29.040 --> 00:46:37.520] Because that to have to go and work at Amazon, you know, would be, I think, very difficult.
[00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:45.120] Like, we'd probably largely be working together still, but there'd be like this other shadow of management hanging over us.
[00:46:45.120 --> 00:46:50.400] And that would be tough.
[00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:56.880] I think we're going to power through all of these questions, but we may break this up into two episodes.
[00:46:56.880 --> 00:47:01.920] So just an FYI, Chris.
[00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:06.720] Okay, so this one came up a couple times.
[00:47:06.720 --> 00:47:13.520] Connor asks, and Jason Zuke asks, what is your definition of enough for a transistor and how has it evolved over the years?
[00:47:13.520 --> 00:47:24.320] And Jason asks, how are you combating the constant urge to grow, improve, and the hedonic treadmill that is being a human being and always thinking we have to strive for bigger, better?
[00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:28.480] Personally, I have never really resonated with this question.
[00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:30.360] I understand why people ask it.
[00:47:29.680 --> 00:47:36.280] I understand why it's, I understand this idea of being at peace and content.
[00:47:36.920 --> 00:47:43.080] For me, the fun part is the idea of like, how can we grow this?
[00:47:43.080 --> 00:47:44.280] How can we get more people?
[00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:59.640] Now, I don't, I have enough in terms of, I think about enough in terms of momentum, in terms of pace, in terms of whatever.
[00:47:59.640 --> 00:48:09.080] So if we go back to running, I want to run at a good pace for as long as I can until I can't run anymore.
[00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:12.200] And this pace feels good.
[00:48:12.520 --> 00:48:15.800] And so, do I have enough money now?
[00:48:15.800 --> 00:48:16.360] Yeah.
[00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:24.600] But, you know, like I said, it would make me feel more secure to have a reasonable chunk of cash for my family.
[00:48:24.600 --> 00:48:26.440] So am I still striving for more?
[00:48:26.440 --> 00:48:27.080] Yeah.
[00:48:27.080 --> 00:48:41.400] But the big thing for me is if I had to force myself to run harder and faster in order to achieve, you know, by the time I'm 70, I want to have at least four or five million in the bank.
[00:48:41.560 --> 00:48:47.640] I don't think it's worth changing the pace because this pace is enough for me.
[00:48:47.640 --> 00:48:48.120] Right.
[00:48:48.120 --> 00:48:49.160] At least for right now.
[00:48:49.160 --> 00:48:49.400] Yeah.
[00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:57.640] I mean, if you were working, if you had to change your pace and your lifestyle and how you worked and everything to get to that point when you're 70, like you might not enjoy those years at all.
[00:48:57.640 --> 00:49:00.200] And then, and then what's the point?
[00:49:00.200 --> 00:49:06.520] You're 70 and you have a bunch of money, but you're burnt out and unhealthy.
[00:49:06.520 --> 00:49:08.840] And I don't, yeah, I don't know what the answer is.
[00:49:08.840 --> 00:49:13.520] I don't know what enough is, really, but it's like it's already enough.
[00:49:15.200 --> 00:49:15.680] Yeah.
[00:49:13.160 --> 00:49:16.480] But I still enjoy it.
[00:49:16.560 --> 00:49:22.400] I'm not, but I'm not sitting here like, oh, we have to grow huge and get more and bigger.
[00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:24.160] And like, yeah, exactly.
[00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:36.800] I think that's, I think that will happen as like an after effect of us just building a good product and you know, helping our customers out and all that.
[00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:37.600] Yeah.
[00:49:37.600 --> 00:49:38.000] Yeah.
[00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:39.840] Putting into work at a reasonable pace.
[00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:49.680] It's like in the same way that, you know, you can get real hyped up on like getting a perfect body or something and just go hard at the gym for a month.
[00:49:49.680 --> 00:50:01.600] But really what's going to make a lasting change is walking to work every day and eating, you know, a salad every day or whatever those little and just finding a pace that works for you.
[00:50:01.920 --> 00:50:09.680] And, you know, the other thing is like when I go running, see, now I'm talking like I'm a runner.
[00:50:09.680 --> 00:50:21.280] When I go running, which has been two times this year, I'm not, I'm, it's not enough for me to stay at whatever it is, a three or four kilometer run.
[00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:28.560] You know, I want to hit a five kilometer run, and eventually I want to work my way up to a 10 kilometer run.
[00:50:28.880 --> 00:50:31.680] So it's not enough to just stay put.
[00:50:31.680 --> 00:50:39.520] That's, that's, there is no, you know, if I had to stay put, I don't know if I would want to keep living.
[00:50:39.520 --> 00:50:39.920] Right.
[00:50:40.160 --> 00:50:45.600] What's what makes sense is seeking more at a reasonable pace.
[00:50:45.600 --> 00:50:49.920] And that's kind of still where I'm at.
[00:50:50.160 --> 00:50:57.200] John Young Fook, who's an awesome, if you're not following him, he's an awesome Indie SaaS founder, founder of Banner Bear.
[00:50:57.200 --> 00:51:00.920] He said, what are your thoughts now on open startups versus private?
[00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:06.440] The most impactful decisions you've made, and how has your job changed year to year?
[00:51:07.880 --> 00:51:13.080] Open startups versus private, I think it was really good for us at the beginning.
[00:51:13.400 --> 00:51:22.520] A big draw for transistors still, and one of our big advantages in the market is we told our story.
[00:51:22.520 --> 00:51:32.440] And I just had someone who's pretty big in the podcast industry reach out, just cold email and say, Hey, and I've been like trying to get on this person's radar forever.
[00:51:32.440 --> 00:51:41.080] And they just said, Hey, I just listened to all the Build Your SaaS episodes after they listened to the Dave Zorob episode because it was kind of about podcasting.
[00:51:41.080 --> 00:51:47.080] And then they went back through our story and just really enjoyed it.
[00:51:47.080 --> 00:51:49.800] So I think it's helpful at the beginning.
[00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:54.200] I think I don't think it's healthy to do it forever.
[00:51:55.240 --> 00:52:01.960] Just even like Buffer, which was kind of like the first company that did open startups.
[00:52:01.960 --> 00:52:03.640] I'll try to include this tweet.
[00:52:03.640 --> 00:52:10.520] But now the big thing going around Twitter is that they've peaked in terms of ARR and now they're going down the other side.
[00:52:10.520 --> 00:52:15.560] And that must not be awesome for morale to have to share that publicly.
[00:52:15.560 --> 00:52:16.200] Right.
[00:52:16.520 --> 00:52:18.840] Yeah, I mean, I think it helped us.
[00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:24.120] I think recording our podcast and our journey was more impactful than showing our financials.
[00:52:24.120 --> 00:52:26.920] But I'm glad you turned it off.
[00:52:26.920 --> 00:52:27.480] Yeah.
[00:52:27.480 --> 00:52:27.960] Yeah.
[00:52:27.960 --> 00:52:29.000] Me too.
[00:52:30.040 --> 00:52:32.200] Most impactful decisions you've made.
[00:52:32.200 --> 00:52:40.600] Again, I think it's just, it really is the foundation you set and the things you put in motion when you start.
[00:52:40.600 --> 00:52:41.160] Yep.
[00:52:41.160 --> 00:52:54.640] And so the, actually, the only other thing I think I would have changed at the beginning is, you know, we hired a lawyer, we asked each other a bunch of questions.
[00:52:54.640 --> 00:53:13.280] I would have, I think, hired one of these startup founder counselors or therapists or whatever to just sit down with each of us and be a middle person to really walk through like some of those questions that, you know, maybe you don't want to ask at the beginning.
[00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:16.480] Because I think we just got lucky in so many ways.
[00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:28.320] Like the old joke on the podcast was I was like, John, you could be an axe murderer and I wouldn't know, you know, like we knew each other, but it was like, I think we just got lucky.
[00:53:28.320 --> 00:53:34.400] And this would have been impossible if either of us had chosen a bad partner.
[00:53:34.400 --> 00:53:34.640] Right.
[00:53:34.640 --> 00:53:35.120] You know what I mean?
[00:53:35.360 --> 00:53:36.960] You didn't know about the background check, I didn't know.
[00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:37.920] I didn't tell you about that.
[00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:40.720] It was cool.
[00:53:41.200 --> 00:53:41.680] You're good.
[00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:46.400] There's like, you hired a PI to take photos of it.
[00:53:47.200 --> 00:53:48.640] He surveyed their house for a while.
[00:53:48.640 --> 00:53:52.080] They're like, so he just drinks a lot of coffee.
[00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:53.840] He eats a donut every week.
[00:53:53.840 --> 00:53:56.800] They're just like, actually, just looking at my Instagram feed.
[00:53:58.400 --> 00:54:00.480] So yeah, it's who you partner up with.
[00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:01.840] It's what market you choose.
[00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:03.680] I'm going to keep banging that drum forever.
[00:54:03.680 --> 00:54:05.280] It matters so much.
[00:54:05.600 --> 00:54:18.360] And the other thing is it was all of the decisions John and I had made individually up to that point in, you know, I'm 38 and John's 37.
[00:54:18.360 --> 00:54:20.720] When we decided to partner up.
[00:54:20.720 --> 00:54:34.200] Everything we'd done in the past that we are now bringing to that relationship and we are now bringing to that company, the people we met, the network we built, the skills we built, all of that stuff, that is incredibly impactful.
[00:54:34.520 --> 00:54:47.640] So to have cultivated a life that by the time we were ready to partner up, we had all of this, you know, these rich, rich fields to cultivate from.
[00:54:48.040 --> 00:54:49.720] That was very helpful.
[00:54:49.720 --> 00:54:56.200] I will, I'll add one more thing to that, and I think that is to hire slowly and deliberately.
[00:54:57.080 --> 00:54:58.360] We waited a while to hire.
[00:54:58.360 --> 00:55:01.240] I mean, we hired Helen part-time at first, and that worked out really well.
[00:55:01.240 --> 00:55:05.160] And then hired her on full-time, which, you know, we definitely talked about it.
[00:55:05.160 --> 00:55:07.320] It wasn't the easiest decision.
[00:55:07.320 --> 00:55:07.880] Yeah.
[00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:10.200] But it worked out really well.
[00:55:10.200 --> 00:55:13.960] And then hiring Jason, we went back and forth a lot on that.
[00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:21.000] And if we wanted to hire another developer, it is because of the, you know, it's our largest expense by far.
[00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:23.320] And we didn't really know if we needed it.
[00:55:23.320 --> 00:55:32.680] We didn't know if we wanted to, you know, increase the pace of the parts of the product we're building.
[00:55:32.680 --> 00:55:33.320] Yeah.
[00:55:33.960 --> 00:55:38.680] But ultimately, that worked out, I think, better than either of us could have expected.
[00:55:38.680 --> 00:55:39.320] Yeah.
[00:55:39.320 --> 00:55:40.600] So, yeah.
[00:55:40.760 --> 00:55:43.880] And it is worth being protective about that.
[00:55:43.880 --> 00:55:48.200] You know, like we do get people applying for jobs every once in a while.
[00:55:48.200 --> 00:55:50.360] And I appreciate those people who are putting themselves out there.
[00:55:50.360 --> 00:55:56.600] I think it's really hard applying for jobs and asking to work at places.
[00:55:56.600 --> 00:56:00.360] But we are incredibly protective of this group we've built.
[00:56:00.680 --> 00:56:08.440] And the next hire we hire will almost certainly be somebody that we have an existing relationship with.
[00:56:08.760 --> 00:56:24.160] And so I think, again, that goes into that idea of cultivating, you know, having three decades or two decades or whatever it was by the time we met of cultivating these relationships that we could tap into.
[00:56:25.120 --> 00:56:25.920] So, yeah.
[00:56:26.240 --> 00:56:27.920] But hiring slowly has been great.
[00:56:28.240 --> 00:56:33.840] When there's a looming recession and we are not worried that we're not going to be able to meet payroll.
[00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:37.360] How has your job changed year to year?
[00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:39.600] I mean, it definitely changed once we hired people.
[00:56:40.720 --> 00:56:49.040] Once we hit, you know, a certain number, there were certain parts where I relaxed for sure.
[00:56:50.640 --> 00:56:54.240] And I think that's been really healthy.
[00:56:54.240 --> 00:57:05.120] And also when you add people, I think there is another part of it that speeds up, which is now you have other people challenging you and giving you ideas.
[00:57:05.120 --> 00:57:08.960] And, you know, Helen's talking to customers all the time and saying, bringing us stuff.
[00:57:08.960 --> 00:57:13.200] And it's like, okay, well, now we got to listen to this stuff and it's important.
[00:57:13.200 --> 00:57:25.200] And so I think, you know, now the pace of, I still think we're calm, but the pace definitely changed once we hired people.
[00:57:25.200 --> 00:57:35.520] Yeah, I think if we hadn't hired people, we may have started to become a little complacent and sort of just like, you know, thought everything was fine.
[00:57:35.520 --> 00:57:43.920] But they both injected like a really nice amount of energy into our day-to-day and the company in general.
[00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:46.160] Yeah, yeah, totally, totally, totally.
[00:57:49.920 --> 00:57:51.280] Hey, Build Your Sass listeners.
[00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:52.480] Chris the editor here.
[00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:56.000] As Justin alluded to in the episode, we're going to break this up into two episodes.
[00:57:56.000 --> 00:58:10.040] So make sure to come back for the next episode when Justin and John answer your questions about advice for startups, deciding on their tech stack, how they decided on pricing, hiring, and whether they have more or less stress in their lives now compared to when they started transistor.fm.
[00:58:10.040 --> 00:58:13.160] And before we go, let's get John back in here to thank the Patreon supporters.
[00:58:13.160 --> 00:58:14.680] Let's see what we got here.
[00:58:14.840 --> 00:59:01.160] We have Jason Charnes, Mitchell Davis from recruitkit.com.au, Marcel Falay from wearbold.af, Alex Payne, Bill Kondo, Anton Zorin from Prodcamp.com, Harris Kenney from the Intro to CRM podcast, Oleg Kulik, Ethan Gunderson, Ward Sandler from Memberspace, Russell Brown from Odevo.com, Noah Prale, Colin Gray, Austin Lovelace, Michael Sitfer, Paul Jarvis, and Jack Ellis from Fathom, my brother Dan Buddha, Darby Frey, Adam Devander, Dave Junta, Junta, and Kyle Fox from getrewardful.com.
[00:59:18.760 --> 00:59:22.600] Podcast hosting is provided by Transistor.fm.
[00:59:22.600 --> 00:59:33.880] They host our MP3 files, generate our RSS feed, provide us with analytics, and help us distribute the show to Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more.
[00:59:33.880 --> 00:59:44.760] If you want to start your own podcast or you want to switch to Transistor, go to transistor.fm/slash Justin and get 15% off your first year.

Prompt 2: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 3: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 4: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Full Transcript

[00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:03.440] This podcast is hosted by Transistor.fm.
[00:00:05.680 --> 00:00:11.600] All right, and when you're ready to do an intro, go ahead.
[00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:13.840] It's been a while.
[00:00:26.720 --> 00:00:28.960] Hey, everyone, welcome to Build Your Sass.
[00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:32.880] This is the behind-the-scenes story of building a web app in 2022.
[00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:35.040] I'm John Buddha, a software engineer.
[00:00:35.040 --> 00:00:36.400] And I'm Justin Jackson.
[00:00:36.400 --> 00:00:38.160] I do product and marketing.
[00:00:38.160 --> 00:00:44.960] You've been following along as we've been building Transistor.fm.
[00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:54.480] And John, it's kind of crazy to think that we've been doing this show for over four years.
[00:00:54.480 --> 00:00:55.120] Yeah.
[00:00:55.440 --> 00:01:02.000] And that means the company we built together is also, well, over four years old.
[00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:15.200] But today, August 1st, is the anniversary of us publicly launching Transistor to the world, doing the product hunt launch and all that.
[00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:15.920] Yeah, August.
[00:01:16.160 --> 00:01:16.880] Do you remember?
[00:01:17.440 --> 00:01:18.640] Do you remember that time?
[00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:19.680] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:20.960] I remember that.
[00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:22.880] Yeah, that was a fun time.
[00:01:23.360 --> 00:01:24.640] We were both in Chicago.
[00:01:24.880 --> 00:01:26.320] Kind of wild.
[00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:29.280] I crashed at your apartment.
[00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:30.080] Yep.
[00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:46.720] I mean, if people go back in our episodes, they will realize, like, you can go back to, you know, I think our first episode is something like February or March of that year before we launched.
[00:01:51.440 --> 00:01:52.800] My name is John Buddha.
[00:01:52.800 --> 00:01:55.520] I am living in Chicago, Illinois.
[00:01:55.680 --> 00:01:58.400] I'm a developer by trade, I suppose.
[00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:01.320] I have background, a little bit of a background in design as well.
[00:02:01.320 --> 00:02:04.360] So, I guess a kind of a full stack web developer.
[00:02:04.520 --> 00:02:05.880] I'm Justin Jackson.
[00:01:59.920 --> 00:02:07.000] I'm from Canada.
[00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:10.040] I got started in software in 2008.
[00:02:10.200 --> 00:02:16.360] Now, on the web, I'm kind of known as indie entrepreneur or solopreneur guy.
[00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:21.880] So, we met back in 2014 because we met at XOXO.
[00:02:21.880 --> 00:02:22.680] We did, yeah.
[00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:35.240] That first day of the festival, you and I met, and I remember being so thankful that you wanted to talk to me because sort of the opposite for me because I'm a fairly introverted guy.
[00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:41.800] So, for me to talk to random folks at festivals is like me pushing myself out of my comfort zone completely.
[00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:43.960] So, you're saying it was painful for you?
[00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:45.480] A little bit at first, sure.
[00:02:45.480 --> 00:02:47.240] Yeah, I think it smoothed out.
[00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:48.360] It went all right.
[00:02:50.920 --> 00:02:52.280] It's kind of wild.
[00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:53.080] It's just wild.
[00:02:53.400 --> 00:03:03.320] There was this feeling when I flew to Chicago of expectation and nervousness.
[00:03:03.320 --> 00:03:10.680] This feeling of you and I knew each other, but not nearly as much as we know each other now.
[00:03:10.680 --> 00:03:11.240] No, yeah.
[00:03:11.240 --> 00:03:20.520] I mean, yeah, we'd hung out a handful of times at conferences and then started a company together without actually getting together.
[00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:21.240] Right?
[00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:22.120] Yeah.
[00:03:22.760 --> 00:03:26.760] I mean, we'd been recording for a while, so we knew each other pretty well.
[00:03:26.760 --> 00:03:31.960] We knew each other from the internet and from these events that we'd gone to.
[00:03:32.600 --> 00:03:38.760] We were introduced in 2014 by our friend Chase Reeves at XOXO.
[00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:43.560] A big shout out to XOXO for bringing John and I together.
[00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:50.400] And I think we started talking in a food line, you know, like waiting for food or drinks or something.
[00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:53.360] And, you know, it's typical.
[00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:55.680] It's like Chase says, Hey, this is John Buddha.
[00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:58.000] And he's like, Hey, this is Justin Jackson.
[00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:02.000] And, you know, we're sitting there, standing there.
[00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:04.080] And it's kind of like, okay, well, what do you do?
[00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:04.720] You know?
[00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:09.760] And I said, well, I've been like working on this podcast called Product People.
[00:04:09.760 --> 00:04:15.200] And he said, oh, I've been working on this podcast hosting platform called Simplecast.
[00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:19.680] And that was like how we met.
[00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:24.080] Yeah, that's kind of what we bonded over, I guess, or talked about.
[00:04:24.080 --> 00:04:24.640] Yeah.
[00:04:24.960 --> 00:04:28.000] You with your Mountain Man beard, and I was clean-shaven at the time.
[00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:30.800] We have since swapped.
[00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:31.440] We flipped.
[00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:41.680] We'll put a photo in the show notes here or maybe the cover art that will show that when we met, I had this giant beard and you were, yeah, clean-shaven.
[00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:42.800] And yeah, we flipped.
[00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:46.240] Now you're rocking the beard and I'm clean-shaven.
[00:04:47.840 --> 00:04:51.200] I keep trying to go back to the beard, but it's a lot of commitment.
[00:04:51.200 --> 00:04:51.680] Yeah.
[00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:52.720] Especially for me.
[00:04:53.200 --> 00:04:55.760] Well, with that size of beard, too, I think it's a lot.
[00:04:56.320 --> 00:05:04.000] But it almost feels like with my facial hair, I have to grow it all the way out just to get like for it to even to work.
[00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:11.760] But anyway, so we met, we hung out, we ended up seeing each other every year kind of after that.
[00:05:11.760 --> 00:05:14.240] We worked on a few projects together.
[00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:19.920] And then in 2017, we were hanging out online somewhere.
[00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:21.840] I don't know where we were messaging.
[00:05:21.840 --> 00:05:22.960] I don't either.
[00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:27.360] And we had been keeping in touch with, like, here's what I'm working on.
[00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:29.120] Here's what you're working on.
[00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:33.640] You were working at Cards at the time, Cards Against Humanity.
[00:05:29.840 --> 00:05:34.040] Yep.
[00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:38.680] And you said, hey, I've been hacking on a little project.
[00:05:39.880 --> 00:05:47.240] And the original, was the initial idea like Cards was working on that new show, and that was why you were hacking on it?
[00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:55.880] Yeah, Cards was doing a holiday promotion where they were going to fund a podcast for a year that would release an episode every day of the week.
[00:05:57.720 --> 00:06:01.000] And they were looking at, you know, they needed a place to host it.
[00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:07.880] And they were looking at Simplecast, which I had built previously, but had, you know, things had gone sour with that.
[00:06:07.880 --> 00:06:17.480] So, and a lot of people had used it at the office just because I had been working on it even when I started at cards.
[00:06:18.440 --> 00:06:20.040] So that's what they knew.
[00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:30.520] And, you know, I was, it would have been fine if they had used it, but in the back of my mind, I was like, I kind of wanted to get back into this again anyway.
[00:06:30.520 --> 00:06:39.320] So I proposed the idea that I kind of build like a prototype of a hosting platform and that if it was ready by the end of the year, they could use it.
[00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:41.080] And that's what happened.
[00:06:41.400 --> 00:06:49.320] So that was like late, or like, I don't know, middle, late 2017, I started on it.
[00:06:49.320 --> 00:06:49.960] Yeah.
[00:06:49.960 --> 00:06:54.600] In our history doc, it says your first line of code was March 2017.
[00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:55.000] Oh, wow.
[00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:55.720] That's okay.
[00:06:55.720 --> 00:06:56.120] Yeah.
[00:06:57.880 --> 00:07:00.440] So early, I guess early 2017.
[00:07:00.440 --> 00:07:01.720] I mean, they did have to plan this.
[00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:04.120] They did have to plan this thing quite far in advance.
[00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:11.080] So I think maybe I had already started working on it even before they brought this up.
[00:07:12.520 --> 00:07:14.440] That's a little bit hazy, but.
[00:07:14.080 --> 00:07:24.400] But, you know, it's one of those projects where you just need something fun to work on in your free time to kind of keep you, I don't know, motivated or like learn new stuff.
[00:07:24.400 --> 00:07:29.520] And so I've been working on that a little bit on and off when I could.
[00:07:30.080 --> 00:07:34.240] And then, yeah, that podcast launched.
[00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:35.280] Things went pretty well.
[00:07:35.280 --> 00:07:41.360] And I think you had gotten in touch with me either late 2017 or early 2018?
[00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:54.080] I think it was late 2017 because, yeah, it was like probably November or December or even October, it could have been.
[00:07:54.080 --> 00:07:57.280] And you were telling me about this project you were working on.
[00:07:57.280 --> 00:08:00.560] You had already registered the domain name.
[00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:03.680] You had already incorporated the company.
[00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:05.360] Yeah, Stripe Atlas.
[00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:06.560] Yeah, that's right.
[00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:07.280] Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:07.280 --> 00:08:11.760] The company was actually officially incorporated in July 2017.
[00:08:11.760 --> 00:08:12.160] Okay.
[00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:35.760] And then as the year is winding down, so October, November, December, we were talking and I was like, I was looking for a new project and I'd been doing things on my own for a long time and was just kind of burnt out on it and was really wanting to do something in software again.
[00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:37.600] There's kind of two things.
[00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:41.440] There's like, who do I want to partner up with?
[00:08:41.760 --> 00:08:44.320] And, you know, I thought about Kyle Fox.
[00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:47.520] He was the one that I did the product people podcast with.
[00:08:47.520 --> 00:08:50.800] And because you want somebody you can trust.
[00:08:50.800 --> 00:08:54.800] You want somebody who has similar product sensibilities.
[00:08:54.800 --> 00:09:02.440] You want somebody who is a good builder who like can really execute at a high level.
[00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:07.640] And you know, I was thinking about okay, who could I partner with?
[00:09:07.640 --> 00:09:12.360] Or maybe I should buy a SaaS app and you know, do it that way.
[00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:19.880] And then you were telling me about this project, and I was just like, there were so many things bubbling in that at that point in podcasting.
[00:09:19.880 --> 00:09:22.280] And I'd been doing it for years.
[00:09:22.280 --> 00:09:29.000] And I was just like, it just felt like instantly for me, like, wow, that is a project that I could work on.
[00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:32.280] And that, and John's somebody I could work on a project with.
[00:09:32.280 --> 00:09:38.120] And we'd had a failed like project, not a failed, but a project we worked on together.
[00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:45.800] And I just remember it being like we had a good rapport while we were, you know, going back and forth.
[00:09:46.680 --> 00:09:49.560] It was a good, I don't know, test case for that.
[00:09:49.560 --> 00:09:50.040] Yeah.
[00:09:51.000 --> 00:09:58.680] And I remember, you know, I remember telling my wife that night, like, oh, you know, John's working on this thing.
[00:09:58.680 --> 00:10:06.120] And I'm kind of thinking of asking him if he'd want to work on it with me, if he'd want to partner up.
[00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:12.440] And she was just like, yes, that sounds exactly right.
[00:10:13.160 --> 00:10:16.280] Because so many things just seem to align.
[00:10:16.280 --> 00:10:22.840] You know, it was like podcasting is the perfect category for us to both be in together.
[00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:28.280] You've got our skills that seem to balance each other out so well.
[00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:29.640] We knew each other.
[00:10:29.640 --> 00:10:35.400] We had like, you know, I'd come home every year from XOXO and she'd say, who'd you hang out with?
[00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:39.240] And I'd be like, well, Chase and John Buddha and Dan and everybody.
[00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:45.760] And so she, it was just, I think she even recognized like this would be really good.
[00:10:45.760 --> 00:10:46.160] Yeah.
[00:10:46.160 --> 00:10:50.240] And that it was worth pursuing because I was like, I don't know if I should pursue this.
[00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:55.280] Like, maybe I should just go after something else or maybe John won't be into it.
[00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:58.560] And I mean, initially I wasn't, right?
[00:10:58.560 --> 00:11:00.000] Yeah, initially you weren't.
[00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:11.200] You know, I, yeah, I had been burned on simplecast and was sort of like deflated from working with someone who, you know, I thought I could trust and worked with well.
[00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:13.280] And it did not work out.
[00:11:13.280 --> 00:11:15.360] So, you know, I was building this thing.
[00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:17.600] Like, I could build this on my own and try to get it to work.
[00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:22.960] And like, you know, it might make enough money for me to live on or be a nice side income or something like that.
[00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:23.440] Yeah.
[00:11:23.760 --> 00:11:28.880] But yeah, for me, I mean, the more I thought about it, the more I was like, I don't, I don't know marketing.
[00:11:28.880 --> 00:11:30.880] I don't want to spend my time doing that.
[00:11:30.880 --> 00:11:31.360] Yeah.
[00:11:31.520 --> 00:11:33.040] Justin knows how to do that.
[00:11:33.040 --> 00:11:34.240] He has a big following.
[00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:38.400] He like is charismatic and outgoing on the internet.
[00:11:38.400 --> 00:11:43.840] And like, once I thought about that, I sort of switch flipped my head and I was like, yeah, that makes sense.
[00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:46.560] Might as well try this out.
[00:11:46.560 --> 00:11:47.280] Try it out.
[00:11:47.280 --> 00:11:48.320] And we took it seriously.
[00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:53.680] I mean, I think if you go back to those episodes, like you were like, let's sign some partnership docs.
[00:11:53.680 --> 00:11:54.800] Let's get some lawyers.
[00:11:55.360 --> 00:12:04.640] And I think, you know, I don't know if everyone should start a company like that, but yeah, that's how it worked for us.
[00:12:04.640 --> 00:12:07.920] We invited our first beta customers in March 2018.
[00:12:07.920 --> 00:12:11.440] August 1st, we did our official launch.
[00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:15.040] We got 100 customers from that official launch.
[00:12:15.040 --> 00:12:21.920] By March 2019, we were very close to hitting $10,000 a month in recurring revenue.
[00:12:22.160 --> 00:12:26.960] And then April 2019, I went full-time.
[00:12:27.280 --> 00:12:30.000] June of that year, we had 1,000 active customers.
[00:12:30.680 --> 00:12:38.920] And July, right before our one-year launch anniversary, you went full-time.
[00:12:38.920 --> 00:12:39.640] Yep.
[00:12:40.280 --> 00:12:45.000] And we've got a bunch of questions from our audience.
[00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:50.040] I don't know if we're going to be able to get to all of these, but I want to thank everyone that gave us questions.
[00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:55.880] And yeah, we're just going to go through them in honor of this four-year anniversary.
[00:12:55.880 --> 00:13:01.000] And hopefully, I think it'll be fun for you and I.
[00:13:01.880 --> 00:13:15.320] But hopefully also it gives people a sense of the significance of all of this, of this time, of building a company on the internet with people you didn't grow up with and didn't know previously.
[00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:18.120] Yeah, through a pandemic.
[00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:19.800] Through a pandemic.
[00:13:19.800 --> 00:13:22.360] I mean, it is incredible.
[00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:22.760] It's funny.
[00:13:22.760 --> 00:13:32.840] Before we get into the questions, like, you know, you'd think like this morning I'd be preparing for this call or something, but I was actually just like working on code because it's fun.
[00:13:32.840 --> 00:13:33.400] Yeah.
[00:13:33.400 --> 00:13:37.000] You know, like I really enjoy it still.
[00:13:37.160 --> 00:13:40.920] I'm not sitting here like going, you know, going through our history and looking up everything.
[00:13:40.920 --> 00:13:42.840] I'm just like, I want to fix this thing because it's fun.
[00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:43.080] Yeah.
[00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:44.520] To be able to wake up every day.
[00:13:44.520 --> 00:13:45.080] That's great.
[00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:45.480] Yeah.
[00:13:45.800 --> 00:13:46.600] It is.
[00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:47.880] It really is.
[00:13:47.880 --> 00:13:52.840] And I hope, I mean, I know a lot of people listen to the show because they've got a dream.
[00:13:53.160 --> 00:14:01.560] They've got a dream about building their own indie SaaS, their own indie software company.
[00:14:01.880 --> 00:14:08.440] And what we've tried to do on this show is provide a, you know, a balanced look of what that looks like.
[00:14:08.800 --> 00:14:10.440] Um, and we got lucky.
[00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:11.640] Ours worked out.
[00:14:11.640 --> 00:14:12.920] Often they don't.
[00:14:12.880 --> 00:14:20.000] And so, and so you know, people along for the ride got this uh kind of ascendant story, which is I think fun.
[00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:31.760] But it, the other thing I've tried to communicate is the positive side, which is this really has changed our life in a in in a really positive way.
[00:14:31.760 --> 00:14:44.960] And uh, the success is is definitely like we cherish the success, we enjoy the success, the success has definitely made our lives better.
[00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:49.040] Yeah, definitely don't take it for granted, and we definitely don't take it for granted.
[00:14:49.040 --> 00:14:52.400] Yeah, all right, let's get into some of these.
[00:14:52.400 --> 00:15:00.960] Gerhard Lazu says, What is the secret to your calm and easy way of running transistor as a company?
[00:15:01.280 --> 00:15:06.800] Well, I think part of it is our personalities, uh, what we wanted.
[00:15:06.800 --> 00:15:23.840] You know, when you and I were talking, even when we were dreaming about the previous projects that we did together, I think the motivation was, you know, we want to have a good life, we want to not have to work for IBM.
[00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:35.040] We want to, you know, not that there's anything with IBM, but just like we knew what we wanted in terms of a work-life balance, I think.
[00:15:35.040 --> 00:15:36.400] Yeah, I think we knew that going into it.
[00:15:36.400 --> 00:15:39.120] I mean, it was definitely tricky at first.
[00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:41.520] Like, I was working full-time.
[00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:44.960] You were, you know, you were still working on things too.
[00:15:46.160 --> 00:15:52.400] Yeah, it's interesting looking back and like, you know, why I would want to run my own company or why we would.
[00:15:53.920 --> 00:15:55.760] It's never really about the money.
[00:15:56.880 --> 00:15:58.880] It's like, I want to work with good people.
[00:15:58.880 --> 00:16:00.440] I want to be able to set my own schedule.
[00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:04.360] I want to not have to go into an office from nine to five.
[00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:07.080] Even though, like, generally, I work nine to five.
[00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:14.680] But within that time, there's so much freedom to just do, you know, schedule your day however you want.
[00:16:14.680 --> 00:16:15.240] Yeah.
[00:16:15.560 --> 00:16:23.160] And I mean, I think, especially, I mean, the challenge sometimes is when you have all that freedom is to actually take advantage of it.
[00:16:23.160 --> 00:16:34.120] But when we are in that mode of, you know, hey, hey, everybody, I'm taking the afternoon off to go swimming and for a run.
[00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:39.320] That is, that lifestyle does create calm.
[00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:39.800] Yeah.
[00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:44.920] And I would also say two more things.
[00:16:44.920 --> 00:16:47.560] One, our handbook, I'll link to it.
[00:16:47.560 --> 00:16:52.120] We have these values that we've kind of added to this list over time.
[00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:56.040] One is our emotional and physical well-being is our number one priority.
[00:16:56.040 --> 00:16:59.640] It's worth investing money and time to take care of ourselves.
[00:16:59.960 --> 00:17:11.240] We've, you know, we've benefited from therapy and other ways of taking care of our minds and our bodies.
[00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:19.800] And I think for us to have that in there from the beginning, you know, I'd be like, message you.
[00:17:19.800 --> 00:17:21.880] And initially, there's always some nervousness.
[00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:27.240] You know, I'd be like, hey, man, I am not doing very good and I just need to take a day off.
[00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:33.400] And you were just so gracious and accepting about that from the beginning.
[00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:39.520] And I think that's led to this, you know, calm and easy way of running the company.
[00:17:39.520 --> 00:17:46.160] Is that we just were not working super hard on like KPIs.
[00:17:44.360 --> 00:17:51.120] You know, it's not like we've got a million things we've got to record, we've got to hit every month.
[00:17:51.120 --> 00:17:55.840] We've always kind of just found this nice balance.
[00:17:56.160 --> 00:18:12.320] And I'd say the other thing is that something else that really helped us have become is that our market, our category, podcast hosting, the momentum is just perfect for us.
[00:18:12.320 --> 00:18:12.960] Yeah.
[00:18:13.280 --> 00:18:22.480] It's not like if you listen to Peldy's story with Balsamek, he pushed launch on that and he said it was like holding onto a rocket ship with his fingernails.
[00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:27.680] It was just so crazy and he had to hire people right away and he was not having a good time.
[00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:29.760] Yeah, I don't think I would have enjoyed that.
[00:18:29.760 --> 00:18:31.040] I don't think you would have either.
[00:18:31.040 --> 00:18:31.440] No.
[00:18:31.760 --> 00:18:33.840] It would have been, it would have been too much.
[00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:35.840] And then the reverse is bad too.
[00:18:35.840 --> 00:18:39.760] If you don't have enough momentum in the market, then you're stressed.
[00:18:39.760 --> 00:18:48.880] You're always trying to do things, push things forward to try to make it happen, to try to get that machine running.
[00:18:49.200 --> 00:19:02.000] And for us, we launched, it wasn't like it was, you know, amazing right off the bat, but you know, 100 paying customers on our launch day, that's incredible.
[00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:02.800] Yeah, that's great.
[00:19:02.800 --> 00:19:14.400] I guess the flip side of this is, and I hope we never get to this point, but like we haven't really been through a period that is a massive struggle, right?
[00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:15.040] Yeah.
[00:19:15.040 --> 00:19:22.080] Nothing horrible has happened, nothing catastrophic, nothing like we've lost half of our customer base in a day.
[00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:31.720] I think we'd probably work together and figure that out as a you know a four-person team now and yeah, and figure out how to move forward.
[00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:36.200] But I don't think that sort of struggle has really hit us yet, yeah.
[00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:46.520] Which you know, it certainly couldn't, but like that will definitely test our uh calm and easygoing company.
[00:19:46.520 --> 00:19:49.240] Yeah, it's true, it's true.
[00:19:49.240 --> 00:20:03.480] Uh, yeah, although I think certainly having a company with margin, so we've got lots of financial margin still, lots of time margin, lots of energy margin.
[00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:25.400] Um, we've never had to have an all I've been on teams where there's an all hands meeting and it's like, all right, guys, shit hit the fan, and it's actually like as an employee, it's always like often it's not your fault, like sometimes it's mismanagement, or sometimes it's just the economy or some other external force or whatever.
[00:20:25.400 --> 00:20:32.840] But it's like shit hit the fan, we all got to come together and like you know, work the weekends and work the nights to get this done.
[00:20:32.840 --> 00:20:41.560] Yeah, and I think one nice thing is it just feels like we have lots of energy in the bank if we ever need to do that.
[00:20:41.560 --> 00:20:51.240] Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, I think part of the reason we have that energy in the bank is that our company is calm and we're not like you know going towards burnout.
[00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:55.960] Yeah, we're like maintaining a steady line of like excitement and rest.
[00:20:55.960 --> 00:21:00.840] And we, you know, we allow Jason and Helen to do the same.
[00:21:00.840 --> 00:21:04.520] Like if they need to take time off, they can do that basically whenever they want.
[00:21:05.560 --> 00:21:05.800] Yeah.
[00:21:05.280 --> 00:21:11.000] Um, you know, take the day if it's like a Wednesday and Jason's like, I'm just done for the day.
[00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:11.960] I'm going to check out.
[00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:13.800] It's like, yeah, that's fair.
[00:21:13.800 --> 00:21:17.200] Like, you can't just sit at your desk and force yourself to work.
[00:21:14.840 --> 00:21:20.000] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:22.880] All right, let's go through some of these a bit faster.
[00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:29.600] We got Marcela who says, What has been the most challenging aspect of the past four years and how do you wish you handled it better?
[00:21:30.320 --> 00:21:31.600] The hard-hitting questions.
[00:21:31.600 --> 00:21:35.840] Yeah, I think just quickly, like the pandemic was difficult.
[00:21:35.840 --> 00:21:47.680] Uh, whenever there's something political in the U.S., it is difficult on our team, it is, yeah, not seeing each other during the pandemic that was way too long.
[00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:57.280] Uh, and generally, I would say so far, like John said, we've been lucky inside the company, not much has been that challenging.
[00:21:57.280 --> 00:22:02.640] I think the things that are challenging are the things that happen outside of the company, you know.
[00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:12.560] Uh, and so it's things in my personal life have you know sometimes been difficult, or like external events like COVID or a recession.
[00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:15.280] Yeah, those are challenging.
[00:22:15.280 --> 00:22:24.160] Chris Enns, our amazing, intrepid podcast editor who's been editing this show from the beginning, asks he has a few questions.
[00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:27.680] He says, Where do you see Transistor at your 10-year anniversary?
[00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:32.720] And then Jason Zuk had a similar question: Where do you see transistor in five years or 10 years?
[00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:34.240] Is there an exit?
[00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:35.360] All that kind of stuff.
[00:22:35.360 --> 00:22:41.920] Yeah, so five years will be 2027.
[00:22:42.320 --> 00:22:43.520] Seven, yep.
[00:22:43.840 --> 00:22:45.600] Um, I don't know.
[00:22:45.600 --> 00:22:46.800] Um, any thoughts?
[00:22:46.800 --> 00:22:48.080] Five, ten years?
[00:22:48.080 --> 00:22:49.040] Yeah, it's hard to say.
[00:22:49.040 --> 00:22:56.640] I mean, I know we want to keep the company small, whether it's still four people or if there's more.
[00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:58.640] That's kind of an open question.
[00:22:59.840 --> 00:23:09.000] I know personally, I don't want to get it too big because I don't want to have to have to feel like I'm managing people instead of building things, right?
[00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:09.640] Yep.
[00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:13.480] Who knows how the podcast ecosystem or market's going to change?
[00:23:14.520 --> 00:23:15.480] That's hard to tell.
[00:23:16.120 --> 00:23:16.600] Yeah.
[00:23:16.600 --> 00:23:21.560] Obviously, we try to adapt to it as we can as it happens, kind of in real time.
[00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:40.040] And as far as an exit, I mean, if it if that happens in five years, like I don't know if the market to be acquired is sort of changing or drying up, or there's been a lot of acquisition in the podcast space.
[00:23:40.040 --> 00:23:40.520] Yeah.
[00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:46.280] But that's something we're also going to talk about in October when we all get together for the first time.
[00:23:46.280 --> 00:23:49.960] Is like, where do we want to go with this?
[00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:54.840] Do we want to do we want to build towards maybe selling it?
[00:23:54.840 --> 00:23:56.520] And what does that look like?
[00:23:56.520 --> 00:23:57.000] Yeah.
[00:23:57.480 --> 00:23:58.840] We just don't have the answers to that.
[00:23:58.840 --> 00:24:04.040] I mean, if I was still working on it in five years like I am now, I think I'd be perfectly happy.
[00:24:04.040 --> 00:24:04.760] Yeah, me too.
[00:24:04.760 --> 00:24:25.880] And I think the only existential question is like, it would be nice for, and actually, I don't think you have this pressure as much as I do, but you know, with the family and everything else, I think I sometimes feel like, ah, it'd be nice to have a couple million in the bank just, you know, just there.
[00:24:27.320 --> 00:24:39.320] But the, I mean, the great thing is if we continue to be as profitable as we are right now in five years, it's very likely that, you know, I could have a couple million in the bank.
[00:24:40.040 --> 00:24:53.040] And that, you know, then I might be more way more at ease and way more willing to say, yeah, let's just ride this out no matter what happens with the transistor mark, the transistor market, the podcast market.
[00:24:53.040 --> 00:24:59.520] Yeah, I mean, realistically, like we could technically just put this thing on autopilot right now and like go on vacation for six months.
[00:24:59.520 --> 00:25:00.080] Yeah.
[00:25:00.080 --> 00:25:02.640] But we're not going to do that.
[00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:04.000] We should A-B test that.
[00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:04.720] It could.
[00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:09.040] It could technically run itself for the most part.
[00:25:09.040 --> 00:25:11.440] I mean, you know, there's customer service, obviously, and stuff like that.
[00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:13.200] Things need to be fixed and things are changing.
[00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:17.440] But like, you know, if we ever got sick of it, that's an option.
[00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:18.240] Yeah.
[00:25:18.560 --> 00:25:20.160] That would be a fun A-B test.
[00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:21.520] Just go, okay.
[00:25:21.840 --> 00:25:23.600] John and I are taking six months off.
[00:25:23.600 --> 00:25:26.400] So then Jason and Helen just run the company.
[00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:27.840] And then we switch.
[00:25:27.840 --> 00:25:31.040] Then it's like, we come back in six months.
[00:25:31.120 --> 00:25:32.720] It's like, oh, wow, what's going on here?
[00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:35.040] And they're like, everything's great.
[00:25:35.040 --> 00:25:36.320] You know, we're up into the right.
[00:25:36.320 --> 00:25:37.120] It's like beauty.
[00:25:37.120 --> 00:25:43.120] And then they take six months off and we just, you know, run the company.
[00:25:43.120 --> 00:25:44.400] Sabbatical for six months.
[00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:44.800] Yeah.
[00:25:44.800 --> 00:25:45.440] Yeah.
[00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:48.960] I love this question from GiggleQuick on Twitter.
[00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:50.400] What is SAS?
[00:25:54.240 --> 00:26:03.760] I responded on Twitter, but that's always like people, you know, that ask me what I do, and I'll say, oh, well, we have a software company that does podcast hosting.
[00:26:03.760 --> 00:26:06.000] And they're like, oh, what's your podcast?
[00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:11.920] And I was like, ah, well, it's called Build Your SaaS, which means software as a service.
[00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:14.080] It's like a niche thing.
[00:26:15.040 --> 00:26:18.960] Anybody outside of software doesn't know what that is.
[00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:19.520] Yeah.
[00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:24.640] Matthias asks, Do you ever feel like you're not doing enough?
[00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:30.520] What I mean is when things are taking off and margin is increasing, you might start to become comfortable.
[00:26:29.840 --> 00:26:35.400] The initial hunger might start to wear off and you maybe you enjoy the fruit of the work you did.
[00:26:35.720 --> 00:26:43.000] But sometimes I feel that I might become too comfortable and then have this feeling that competitors will be more hungry than me.
[00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:44.200] I would love your thoughts on this.
[00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:45.640] Is this something you struggle with?
[00:26:46.520 --> 00:26:47.880] Yeah, I think I do.
[00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:50.760] I mean, it's always in the back of my mind.
[00:26:50.760 --> 00:26:54.680] Like, I'm sure there's always more we could do.
[00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:58.440] I don't think it's very beneficial to like think about it all the time.
[00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:03.320] I think that would just cause a lot of stress and anxiety.
[00:27:03.800 --> 00:27:04.200] Yeah.
[00:27:04.840 --> 00:27:15.480] But I think it's good to be aware of your competitors and like, you know, how they're moving and kind of what they're doing and things like that.
[00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:17.080] And we've, you know, we've noticed that before.
[00:27:17.080 --> 00:27:21.720] We've definitely reacted sometimes to other competitors in certain ways.
[00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:23.320] But yeah, I don't know.
[00:27:23.320 --> 00:27:26.600] I don't know if I necessarily worry that we're not doing enough.
[00:27:26.600 --> 00:27:29.080] I think we do a lot with the small team we have.
[00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:30.040] Yeah.
[00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:48.760] Yeah, I think there is, this is kind of my, whatever, my universal theory of bootstrapping or indie SAS or whatever, which is you need to find a momentum, a pace that allows you to go the distance.
[00:27:49.080 --> 00:27:53.720] And, you know, I just, I've, I've gone on two runs this year.
[00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:58.600] I did my first, my, my annual run, and then I'm like, I'll try to do another one.
[00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:04.760] But if I, if I don't have a reasonable pace, I'm just not going to be able to go the distance.
[00:28:04.760 --> 00:28:10.440] And so, sure, I can run a faster mile, but that means I won't be able to run the next mile.
[00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:11.000] Right.
[00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:28.480] And it's really tempting to stay up at night worrying about your competitors and then writing a big list of all the things you need to do to compete and then just working yourself to the bone to try to get there.
[00:28:29.120 --> 00:28:31.440] And I'm not saying there's not times to do that.
[00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:34.480] Like, sure, at the beginning, we did feel this pressure.
[00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:39.520] We needed to get to feature parity with our competitors.
[00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:46.080] But hopefully, the market you're in has enough draw.
[00:28:46.080 --> 00:28:51.920] And really, product can't be your only magnet.
[00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:57.440] You've got to have some other things in your corner.
[00:28:57.760 --> 00:29:02.880] And, you know, for us, that was network, it was skills, it was our history.
[00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:07.680] It was us understanding the customer, I think, better than a lot of our competitors.
[00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:14.240] It was the fact that John is really good at building product, and hopefully, I'm okay at promoting it.
[00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:20.320] It's having an audience, it's being able to, you know, reach out and collaborate with other people.
[00:29:20.320 --> 00:29:22.000] It's being willing to ask for help.
[00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:30.160] Like, you have to have more in your corner than just you cranking out features, hoping to get ahead of the competitors.
[00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:40.800] There are lots of products that are better than the incumbent, better features, whatever, but they're missing everything else.
[00:29:40.800 --> 00:29:54.960] And the way, you know, the winners or even like the marginal winners are not determined just by, you know, you having more features than your competitors.
[00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:55.520] Yeah.
[00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:00.680] I finished a book recently called Running the Dream, which is really good.
[00:29:59.840 --> 00:30:06.840] And it was about this non-he was not an elite runner.
[00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:18.280] And he ended up, he's a writer, he's a journalist, and he ended up wanting to join an elite team and training for the Chicago Marathon and document it.
[00:30:18.280 --> 00:30:21.880] But he was a really good runner, but he was not like, you know, he's not going to win a marathon.
[00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:23.320] He's not going to the Olympics.
[00:30:24.840 --> 00:30:31.080] And it was all about him like training with this team for six months or whatever in Arizona and Flagstaff.
[00:30:31.080 --> 00:30:33.640] And it's kind of similar with building a product.
[00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:38.920] Like he's not going out there and running his marathon pace every day, all the time.
[00:30:39.560 --> 00:30:55.400] There's like moments where you're going to train for speed and there's other stuff you're going to do, but most of the time he's, you know, he's training at like, you know, a minute and a minute and a half slower than his marathon time, but doing, you know, putting in longer workouts and training up different things.
[00:30:55.400 --> 00:31:02.600] But there's also like he needs rest days and he has like massages and physical therapy and stuff like that that all plays into it.
[00:31:02.600 --> 00:31:07.560] So you can't just like go balls out all the time and hope that you're going to reach your goal.
[00:31:07.560 --> 00:31:08.040] Yeah.
[00:31:08.840 --> 00:31:09.880] Anyway, it's a great book.
[00:31:09.880 --> 00:31:15.160] It doesn't really have anything to do with running a company, but pretty fascinating to read.
[00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:22.600] It sounds like that's actually exactly kind of what you need to be because these parallels are what you should be looking at.
[00:31:22.600 --> 00:31:26.280] So sure, business is different and every market in business is different.
[00:31:26.280 --> 00:31:27.720] Every industry is different.
[00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:35.000] And this is also why I'm so big on choosing your market because some markets you do just have to run harder.
[00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:39.960] And if you don't want to do that, then don't go into that category.
[00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:52.960] You know, if I know that being a car salesman would require a certain level of effort every day and hustle every day and whatever.
[00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:56.000] And that's why I chose not to be a car salesperson.
[00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:57.520] I don't want to do that.
[00:31:57.520 --> 00:32:03.440] So you have to choose and find a fit that matches what you want.
[00:32:03.760 --> 00:32:09.600] And it's not easy, but yeah, I think it's worth trying for.
[00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:13.360] Okay, so Jason Zuk says, Do you think we've reached peak podcast?
[00:32:13.360 --> 00:32:15.600] Or is there more overall podcast growth?
[00:32:15.600 --> 00:32:18.800] It kind of feels like there's a certain age group that enjoys podcasts.
[00:32:18.800 --> 00:32:20.560] I think he's saying older people.
[00:32:20.560 --> 00:32:24.880] Younger generation lives on TikTok, YouTube, Twitch, et cetera.
[00:32:25.280 --> 00:32:27.600] So I don't think we've reached peak podcast.
[00:32:27.600 --> 00:32:30.560] I think podcasting had a bump during the pandemic.
[00:32:30.560 --> 00:32:35.680] I think we're just going to return to 10-15% growth a year.
[00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:37.680] There's different ways of measuring that.
[00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:40.320] Advertising growth is going to grow faster than that, I think.
[00:32:40.320 --> 00:32:41.600] It already is.
[00:32:41.600 --> 00:32:53.840] But in terms of listenership, I think we're just back to our regular cadence of 10 to 15% growth in terms of new listeners every year.
[00:32:53.840 --> 00:33:01.920] There are global markets that are growing much faster than that for podcasting: Brazil, Mexico.
[00:33:02.560 --> 00:33:05.440] So there's lots of growth there.
[00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:15.360] And then there's also one of the benefits of having four kids who are all Gen Z is that I get to see how their lives kind of progress.
[00:33:15.360 --> 00:33:19.280] And around 16, 17, they start listening to podcasts.
[00:33:19.280 --> 00:33:26.800] Now, maybe it's because they're my kids, but trust me, I don't think they're doing it because of dad.
[00:33:27.040 --> 00:33:29.120] They find these shows on their own.
[00:33:29.120 --> 00:33:35.720] Sometimes they discover them through YouTube and Instagram, and then they start listening based on that.
[00:33:35.720 --> 00:33:44.600] There also seems to be, I'll link to this report my daughter did on the Transistor blog, but there seems to be this transition.
[00:33:44.600 --> 00:33:48.200] You know, my daughter left home and now she's going to university.
[00:33:48.200 --> 00:33:57.800] She's trying to figure out what it is to be an adult, and she's looking for models to follow who are not her parents.
[00:33:57.800 --> 00:34:07.960] And she has, she says her and her friends are increasingly reaching out to podcasts to get a sense of what it means to be an adult.
[00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:12.520] And so they're looking, she likes listening to podcasts by millennials.
[00:34:12.520 --> 00:34:16.840] So people that are just ahead of her and hearing their experience.
[00:34:16.840 --> 00:34:29.960] And, you know, it's like psychology, it's productivity, it's, you know, self-care, all sorts of topics that a young adult might be interested in.
[00:34:29.960 --> 00:34:32.440] So I think we're not at peak podcasts.
[00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:37.560] I think it's going to continue to increase, but we're back to the regular pace.
[00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:43.160] John, what's something you've gotten better at over the past four years?
[00:34:43.160 --> 00:34:45.560] Noah Bragg asks this question.
[00:34:45.560 --> 00:34:47.400] Oh, that's a good question.
[00:34:49.240 --> 00:34:51.160] I think we were just talking about this the other day.
[00:34:52.200 --> 00:35:05.480] I think I've gotten a lot better at, I don't know if taking criticism is the right one, but having my ideas and assumptions challenged as far as the product goes.
[00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:05.960] Yeah.
[00:35:05.960 --> 00:35:08.600] Especially after we hired Jason.
[00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:12.760] But you, you know, you and I have kind of went back and forth on a few things too.
[00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:21.440] And, you know, I can get a little bullheaded and proud of what I built and not want to change something or like a line of copy.
[00:35:21.520 --> 00:35:23.440] I'm like, oh, yeah, that's fine.
[00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:23.920] Yeah.
[00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:30.000] But we work through it and ultimately, like, whatever comes out in the end is far better than what I did.
[00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:30.320] Yeah.
[00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:30.640] Yeah.
[00:35:30.640 --> 00:35:32.080] No, I think that's true, actually, John.
[00:35:32.160 --> 00:35:42.080] I think, I think it's also a matter of as you get, as you work with somebody for longer, you start to recognize the pattern.
[00:35:42.080 --> 00:35:50.000] So it's like, initially, I might like challenge you on something and then get rebuffed, but I just know that's just part of our process.
[00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:50.720] You know what I mean?
[00:35:50.720 --> 00:35:52.800] It's like, okay, well, I'm going to.
[00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:58.880] And in the same way that I might present an idea and then you, you know, might critique it right away.
[00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:03.520] I just know that's part of our process of figuring out what we're going to do.
[00:36:03.520 --> 00:36:10.000] And ultimately, it does, I think, create a better outcome when we do do that.
[00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:10.640] Yeah.
[00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:12.400] So, yeah, I'd agree with that.
[00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:13.520] I think that's great.
[00:36:13.520 --> 00:36:14.640] How about you?
[00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:17.440] I think for me, you know, better is sure.
[00:36:17.440 --> 00:36:24.080] I think I've gotten better at some things, but I think a better way of putting it is I just have more awareness.
[00:36:24.240 --> 00:36:40.320] One thing I brought up quite a bit is like, I just know that if you and I are not connecting with a call once a week, that we just can't let that go for too long or it's not good for our relationship.
[00:36:40.640 --> 00:36:48.240] In the same way, I think you and I need at least one in-person meetup every year.
[00:36:48.560 --> 00:36:52.400] And if it goes too long, it really affects our relationship.
[00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:52.960] Yeah.
[00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:57.560] And so I think having awareness about those things.
[00:36:57.560 --> 00:37:12.200] And I think my default when we started was just feeling like, you know, I can just be in my little, my little cave working on my stuff, and you're in your cave working on your stuff.
[00:37:12.200 --> 00:37:15.320] And why would we need to interact?
[00:37:15.640 --> 00:37:19.960] And I'm just realizing how important that is.
[00:37:20.600 --> 00:37:29.480] And when we don't have it, it is, yeah, I just think it's not good for the relationship.
[00:37:29.480 --> 00:37:31.320] And I can also see it with our team.
[00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:37.320] You know, we, I was kind of hesitant to do any sort of meeting for a long time.
[00:37:37.640 --> 00:37:44.120] And just having this standing weekly meeting every Thursday, it's just good for us.
[00:37:44.120 --> 00:37:45.640] It's good for us emotionally.
[00:37:45.640 --> 00:37:48.040] It's good for us as human beings.
[00:37:49.400 --> 00:38:00.120] And sometimes I treat myself like just a working robot, like a robot that just does stuff and goes home at the end of the night.
[00:38:00.120 --> 00:38:05.880] And it's been nice to recognize like this human part of it.
[00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:21.080] Like part of the reason we're doing this is so that I can connect with you, so that we can connect with Jason and Helen, so we can have this human experience of laughing together, working on something together, trying to overcome challenges together.
[00:38:21.080 --> 00:38:23.320] That part has been really great.
[00:38:23.640 --> 00:38:24.680] I would agree with that.
[00:38:24.680 --> 00:38:29.320] What was the lowest point or equivalent of rock bottom in your four-year transistor history?
[00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:33.240] I don't know if there's, again, we haven't really had anything.
[00:38:33.240 --> 00:38:51.680] I think at the beginning, something we sometimes gloss over is just how hard it was on John to be working a full-time job and coming home evenings and weekends, and how hard it was on me financially to have just waiting on this other thing that we were investing so much time in.
[00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:55.360] I think the lowest point for me was certainly near the beginning, which is unfortunate.
[00:38:55.440 --> 00:39:00.560] I mean, it's how it happened, but like I was just done at my old job, right?
[00:39:00.560 --> 00:39:01.520] I was like checked out.
[00:39:01.520 --> 00:39:02.560] I didn't want to be there.
[00:39:02.560 --> 00:39:04.880] I didn't want to come in in the morning.
[00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:08.560] I was excited about this other thing that I was working on with you.
[00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:19.360] And, you know, it affected my relationships and stuff because I was not in a good mood or, you know, needed to spend time with this other thing when I was done working at the other job.
[00:39:19.680 --> 00:39:20.320] Yes.
[00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:26.640] So I'm, yeah, I'm glad I could leave my other job as quickly as I could.
[00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:27.600] Yeah.
[00:39:27.600 --> 00:39:28.160] Yeah.
[00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:28.800] Yeah.
[00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:40.160] And in retrospect, this is why I've softened a little bit on pure bootstrapping versus raising money because, I mean, ultimately now we're really happy that it worked out.
[00:39:40.160 --> 00:39:51.040] But, you know, there's a world in which things took longer and it really affected both of us mentally and that could have been really bad.
[00:39:51.040 --> 00:40:10.400] So, you know, if you need, if you've got a good idea and a market that wants that idea and you feel like you've got built-in advantages and you can convince somebody to give you 100 grand or 200 grand to build, focus on building the product for a year, I think that can be really beneficial.
[00:40:10.720 --> 00:40:18.960] Daniel Lazar, who is host of the For a Living podcast, great transistor customer.
[00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:26.960] He's got a few good questions, but I think we only have time for: what have you learned about partnership that you wish the world could hear?
[00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:51.720] This kind of goes off the other one we just had, but another thought I had is just, and this applies, I think, to all relationships: is a partnership is a tension between individuals working on themselves and figuring out their own issues and then bringing that to the table, hopefully with someone else who is also working on their issues.
[00:40:52.600 --> 00:41:07.480] And I think one of the reasons it's been great to be with John is that we kind of bonded over mental health stuff, like sharing personal experiences from our lives.
[00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:17.960] And so I already knew he was the kind of person who is working on himself and that I could talk about, you know, just life stuff with.
[00:41:19.160 --> 00:41:33.080] And I think it would be challenging to be in a partnership with someone who's not self-aware, with someone who's not going to therapy, with someone who's not taking care of themselves.
[00:41:33.720 --> 00:41:36.200] And that often doesn't get talked about.
[00:41:36.600 --> 00:41:42.520] So often people are looking for a technical co-founder or they're looking for a marketing co-founder.
[00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:45.160] And those are both good things to look for.
[00:41:45.160 --> 00:41:51.400] But there's this other layer of, and it can even be cheesy.
[00:41:51.400 --> 00:42:01.800] Like, you know, sometimes I'll, you know, we haven't done this in a while, but I would share it with John, like one of those cheesy personality quizzes.
[00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:02.200] Yeah.
[00:42:02.200 --> 00:42:04.440] And we would go through those together.
[00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:14.960] And there is something about that of working on yourself and then coming together and then working on your relationship.
[00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:20.640] But it can only really work if both parties are motivated in that way.
[00:42:14.600 --> 00:42:21.200] I would agree with that.
[00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:28.880] Yeah, I mean, it's, I would say, yeah, the partnership is about a lot more than just the business.
[00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:29.360] Yeah.
[00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:29.600] Right?
[00:42:29.600 --> 00:42:34.640] Like, that's definitely a big part of it, but there's just so much more that goes on there.
[00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:35.600] Yeah.
[00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:36.240] Yeah.
[00:42:36.240 --> 00:42:44.000] And I mean, to make this like more real, I mean, there was a time during the pandemic, I was really worried about you, John.
[00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:44.400] Yeah.
[00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:50.400] Like, just the lockdowns in Chicago, and, you know, you weren't able to get out and exercise.
[00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:55.760] And you were, I had a family full, so I had a house full of people, but you're in your apartment by yourself.
[00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:58.320] And I was definitely worried about you.
[00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:15.840] And I think that kind of care and that also just like being the kind of partners that can encourage each other to say, hey, you know, take care of yourself, you know, is really, really key.
[00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:17.440] So great question, Daniel.
[00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:25.840] Min Fuk Tran says, it would be fun and refreshing to hear what has been the most fun and memorable experience during your four-year journey.
[00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:35.200] Most startup podcasts are about how to succeed, but rarely talk about the things they remember, you know, after the success, I guess.
[00:43:35.520 --> 00:43:36.720] Fun.
[00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:45.600] I mean, this is kind of, again, about our friendship and relationship, but like it's fun snowboarding together.
[00:43:46.560 --> 00:43:49.760] It's fun going to Portland together.
[00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:58.560] You know, I think those for me have been the shared experiences have been in person have been some of the most fun.
[00:43:58.560 --> 00:43:59.720] Yeah, definitely.
[00:44:00.040 --> 00:44:04.280] Which is funny because then it just makes me feel like, why don't we invest in that more?
[00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:06.360] Yeah, we don't really do it that often.
[00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:06.520] Yeah.
[00:44:07.080 --> 00:44:11.160] I mean, COVID kind of changed everything, but we certainly could.
[00:44:11.160 --> 00:44:12.120] Because, yeah, it's great.
[00:44:12.120 --> 00:44:19.000] I mean, you know, whether it's just a meetup where we work on some stuff or just hang out or talk about life.
[00:44:19.160 --> 00:44:22.120] I would also say, I think our staff meetings have been fun.
[00:44:22.120 --> 00:44:22.680] Yeah.
[00:44:22.680 --> 00:44:26.440] Just like we often are laughing during those.
[00:44:26.440 --> 00:44:28.680] So, yeah, I think that's been fun.
[00:44:28.680 --> 00:44:38.760] And I would also say, you know, in terms of fun and memorable, it's like, yeah, when we release something, we're really proud of.
[00:44:39.400 --> 00:44:51.800] And just, I think you and I were talking about this the other day, but with these achievement badges we just released, I just loved like seeing how that idea kind of percolated up through Slack.
[00:44:51.800 --> 00:45:00.520] And then you and Jason kind of took hold of it and then went and got those badges designed and then, you know, worked on the thing.
[00:45:00.520 --> 00:45:05.080] And then we continued to see evidence that people wanted it.
[00:45:05.080 --> 00:45:13.480] And then eventually to get it out in the world and to have people respond in such an exuberant way, like our customers just love it.
[00:45:13.480 --> 00:45:15.240] Yeah, and that was a long feature.
[00:45:15.240 --> 00:45:21.080] I mean, we had those badges done in like November or December of 2021 and they were done.
[00:45:21.400 --> 00:45:25.800] And we just sort of like had other stuff to do, but they were sitting there waiting for us to build it.
[00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:30.120] We built parts of it at a time and then finally finished it up.
[00:45:30.120 --> 00:45:31.320] But yeah, that was fun.
[00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:44.400] That was uh, I mean, for me, the whole thing is like, and I tell people this all the time, like when they ask what I'm doing and if I like it, it's like I get to come to work and work with three great friends.
[00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:47.040] And like, Jason was a great friend before this.
[00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:47.200] Yeah.
[00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:52.960] And it's just like, you know, there's always like, is this a good idea?
[00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:55.600] Like, how is this going to change our relationship?
[00:45:55.600 --> 00:45:56.000] Yeah.
[00:45:56.160 --> 00:45:58.800] And I also don't see him physically often enough either.
[00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:00.800] And he's not that far away.
[00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:06.960] But like, it's great just coming to work with like friends you enjoy being around.
[00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:07.440] Yeah.
[00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:08.000] Every day.
[00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:08.320] Yeah.
[00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:10.160] Like it's really absolutely.
[00:46:10.160 --> 00:46:14.400] I don't think, you know, I don't think a lot of people have that necessarily.
[00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:21.600] I mean, you know, you can make friends at work and at the office, but it's like, it's not always the same, especially with bigger companies.
[00:46:21.600 --> 00:46:23.040] Like, yeah.
[00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:28.320] But yeah, it's just which is one reason it would be hard to sell.
[00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:28.720] Yeah.
[00:46:29.040 --> 00:46:37.520] Because that to have to go and work at Amazon, you know, would be, I think, very difficult.
[00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:45.120] Like, we'd probably largely be working together still, but there'd be like this other shadow of management hanging over us.
[00:46:45.120 --> 00:46:50.400] And that would be tough.
[00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:56.880] I think we're going to power through all of these questions, but we may break this up into two episodes.
[00:46:56.880 --> 00:47:01.920] So just an FYI, Chris.
[00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:06.720] Okay, so this one came up a couple times.
[00:47:06.720 --> 00:47:13.520] Connor asks, and Jason Zuke asks, what is your definition of enough for a transistor and how has it evolved over the years?
[00:47:13.520 --> 00:47:24.320] And Jason asks, how are you combating the constant urge to grow, improve, and the hedonic treadmill that is being a human being and always thinking we have to strive for bigger, better?
[00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:28.480] Personally, I have never really resonated with this question.
[00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:30.360] I understand why people ask it.
[00:47:29.680 --> 00:47:36.280] I understand why it's, I understand this idea of being at peace and content.
[00:47:36.920 --> 00:47:43.080] For me, the fun part is the idea of like, how can we grow this?
[00:47:43.080 --> 00:47:44.280] How can we get more people?
[00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:59.640] Now, I don't, I have enough in terms of, I think about enough in terms of momentum, in terms of pace, in terms of whatever.
[00:47:59.640 --> 00:48:09.080] So if we go back to running, I want to run at a good pace for as long as I can until I can't run anymore.
[00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:12.200] And this pace feels good.
[00:48:12.520 --> 00:48:15.800] And so, do I have enough money now?
[00:48:15.800 --> 00:48:16.360] Yeah.
[00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:24.600] But, you know, like I said, it would make me feel more secure to have a reasonable chunk of cash for my family.
[00:48:24.600 --> 00:48:26.440] So am I still striving for more?
[00:48:26.440 --> 00:48:27.080] Yeah.
[00:48:27.080 --> 00:48:41.400] But the big thing for me is if I had to force myself to run harder and faster in order to achieve, you know, by the time I'm 70, I want to have at least four or five million in the bank.
[00:48:41.560 --> 00:48:47.640] I don't think it's worth changing the pace because this pace is enough for me.
[00:48:47.640 --> 00:48:48.120] Right.
[00:48:48.120 --> 00:48:49.160] At least for right now.
[00:48:49.160 --> 00:48:49.400] Yeah.
[00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:57.640] I mean, if you were working, if you had to change your pace and your lifestyle and how you worked and everything to get to that point when you're 70, like you might not enjoy those years at all.
[00:48:57.640 --> 00:49:00.200] And then, and then what's the point?
[00:49:00.200 --> 00:49:06.520] You're 70 and you have a bunch of money, but you're burnt out and unhealthy.
[00:49:06.520 --> 00:49:08.840] And I don't, yeah, I don't know what the answer is.
[00:49:08.840 --> 00:49:13.520] I don't know what enough is, really, but it's like it's already enough.
[00:49:15.200 --> 00:49:15.680] Yeah.
[00:49:13.160 --> 00:49:16.480] But I still enjoy it.
[00:49:16.560 --> 00:49:22.400] I'm not, but I'm not sitting here like, oh, we have to grow huge and get more and bigger.
[00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:24.160] And like, yeah, exactly.
[00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:36.800] I think that's, I think that will happen as like an after effect of us just building a good product and you know, helping our customers out and all that.
[00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:37.600] Yeah.
[00:49:37.600 --> 00:49:38.000] Yeah.
[00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:39.840] Putting into work at a reasonable pace.
[00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:49.680] It's like in the same way that, you know, you can get real hyped up on like getting a perfect body or something and just go hard at the gym for a month.
[00:49:49.680 --> 00:50:01.600] But really what's going to make a lasting change is walking to work every day and eating, you know, a salad every day or whatever those little and just finding a pace that works for you.
[00:50:01.920 --> 00:50:09.680] And, you know, the other thing is like when I go running, see, now I'm talking like I'm a runner.
[00:50:09.680 --> 00:50:21.280] When I go running, which has been two times this year, I'm not, I'm, it's not enough for me to stay at whatever it is, a three or four kilometer run.
[00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:28.560] You know, I want to hit a five kilometer run, and eventually I want to work my way up to a 10 kilometer run.
[00:50:28.880 --> 00:50:31.680] So it's not enough to just stay put.
[00:50:31.680 --> 00:50:39.520] That's, that's, there is no, you know, if I had to stay put, I don't know if I would want to keep living.
[00:50:39.520 --> 00:50:39.920] Right.
[00:50:40.160 --> 00:50:45.600] What's what makes sense is seeking more at a reasonable pace.
[00:50:45.600 --> 00:50:49.920] And that's kind of still where I'm at.
[00:50:50.160 --> 00:50:57.200] John Young Fook, who's an awesome, if you're not following him, he's an awesome Indie SaaS founder, founder of Banner Bear.
[00:50:57.200 --> 00:51:00.920] He said, what are your thoughts now on open startups versus private?
[00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:06.440] The most impactful decisions you've made, and how has your job changed year to year?
[00:51:07.880 --> 00:51:13.080] Open startups versus private, I think it was really good for us at the beginning.
[00:51:13.400 --> 00:51:22.520] A big draw for transistors still, and one of our big advantages in the market is we told our story.
[00:51:22.520 --> 00:51:32.440] And I just had someone who's pretty big in the podcast industry reach out, just cold email and say, Hey, and I've been like trying to get on this person's radar forever.
[00:51:32.440 --> 00:51:41.080] And they just said, Hey, I just listened to all the Build Your SaaS episodes after they listened to the Dave Zorob episode because it was kind of about podcasting.
[00:51:41.080 --> 00:51:47.080] And then they went back through our story and just really enjoyed it.
[00:51:47.080 --> 00:51:49.800] So I think it's helpful at the beginning.
[00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:54.200] I think I don't think it's healthy to do it forever.
[00:51:55.240 --> 00:52:01.960] Just even like Buffer, which was kind of like the first company that did open startups.
[00:52:01.960 --> 00:52:03.640] I'll try to include this tweet.
[00:52:03.640 --> 00:52:10.520] But now the big thing going around Twitter is that they've peaked in terms of ARR and now they're going down the other side.
[00:52:10.520 --> 00:52:15.560] And that must not be awesome for morale to have to share that publicly.
[00:52:15.560 --> 00:52:16.200] Right.
[00:52:16.520 --> 00:52:18.840] Yeah, I mean, I think it helped us.
[00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:24.120] I think recording our podcast and our journey was more impactful than showing our financials.
[00:52:24.120 --> 00:52:26.920] But I'm glad you turned it off.
[00:52:26.920 --> 00:52:27.480] Yeah.
[00:52:27.480 --> 00:52:27.960] Yeah.
[00:52:27.960 --> 00:52:29.000] Me too.
[00:52:30.040 --> 00:52:32.200] Most impactful decisions you've made.
[00:52:32.200 --> 00:52:40.600] Again, I think it's just, it really is the foundation you set and the things you put in motion when you start.
[00:52:40.600 --> 00:52:41.160] Yep.
[00:52:41.160 --> 00:52:54.640] And so the, actually, the only other thing I think I would have changed at the beginning is, you know, we hired a lawyer, we asked each other a bunch of questions.
[00:52:54.640 --> 00:53:13.280] I would have, I think, hired one of these startup founder counselors or therapists or whatever to just sit down with each of us and be a middle person to really walk through like some of those questions that, you know, maybe you don't want to ask at the beginning.
[00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:16.480] Because I think we just got lucky in so many ways.
[00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:28.320] Like the old joke on the podcast was I was like, John, you could be an axe murderer and I wouldn't know, you know, like we knew each other, but it was like, I think we just got lucky.
[00:53:28.320 --> 00:53:34.400] And this would have been impossible if either of us had chosen a bad partner.
[00:53:34.400 --> 00:53:34.640] Right.
[00:53:34.640 --> 00:53:35.120] You know what I mean?
[00:53:35.360 --> 00:53:36.960] You didn't know about the background check, I didn't know.
[00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:37.920] I didn't tell you about that.
[00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:40.720] It was cool.
[00:53:41.200 --> 00:53:41.680] You're good.
[00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:46.400] There's like, you hired a PI to take photos of it.
[00:53:47.200 --> 00:53:48.640] He surveyed their house for a while.
[00:53:48.640 --> 00:53:52.080] They're like, so he just drinks a lot of coffee.
[00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:53.840] He eats a donut every week.
[00:53:53.840 --> 00:53:56.800] They're just like, actually, just looking at my Instagram feed.
[00:53:58.400 --> 00:54:00.480] So yeah, it's who you partner up with.
[00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:01.840] It's what market you choose.
[00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:03.680] I'm going to keep banging that drum forever.
[00:54:03.680 --> 00:54:05.280] It matters so much.
[00:54:05.600 --> 00:54:18.360] And the other thing is it was all of the decisions John and I had made individually up to that point in, you know, I'm 38 and John's 37.
[00:54:18.360 --> 00:54:20.720] When we decided to partner up.
[00:54:20.720 --> 00:54:34.200] Everything we'd done in the past that we are now bringing to that relationship and we are now bringing to that company, the people we met, the network we built, the skills we built, all of that stuff, that is incredibly impactful.
[00:54:34.520 --> 00:54:47.640] So to have cultivated a life that by the time we were ready to partner up, we had all of this, you know, these rich, rich fields to cultivate from.
[00:54:48.040 --> 00:54:49.720] That was very helpful.
[00:54:49.720 --> 00:54:56.200] I will, I'll add one more thing to that, and I think that is to hire slowly and deliberately.
[00:54:57.080 --> 00:54:58.360] We waited a while to hire.
[00:54:58.360 --> 00:55:01.240] I mean, we hired Helen part-time at first, and that worked out really well.
[00:55:01.240 --> 00:55:05.160] And then hired her on full-time, which, you know, we definitely talked about it.
[00:55:05.160 --> 00:55:07.320] It wasn't the easiest decision.
[00:55:07.320 --> 00:55:07.880] Yeah.
[00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:10.200] But it worked out really well.
[00:55:10.200 --> 00:55:13.960] And then hiring Jason, we went back and forth a lot on that.
[00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:21.000] And if we wanted to hire another developer, it is because of the, you know, it's our largest expense by far.
[00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:23.320] And we didn't really know if we needed it.
[00:55:23.320 --> 00:55:32.680] We didn't know if we wanted to, you know, increase the pace of the parts of the product we're building.
[00:55:32.680 --> 00:55:33.320] Yeah.
[00:55:33.960 --> 00:55:38.680] But ultimately, that worked out, I think, better than either of us could have expected.
[00:55:38.680 --> 00:55:39.320] Yeah.
[00:55:39.320 --> 00:55:40.600] So, yeah.
[00:55:40.760 --> 00:55:43.880] And it is worth being protective about that.
[00:55:43.880 --> 00:55:48.200] You know, like we do get people applying for jobs every once in a while.
[00:55:48.200 --> 00:55:50.360] And I appreciate those people who are putting themselves out there.
[00:55:50.360 --> 00:55:56.600] I think it's really hard applying for jobs and asking to work at places.
[00:55:56.600 --> 00:56:00.360] But we are incredibly protective of this group we've built.
[00:56:00.680 --> 00:56:08.440] And the next hire we hire will almost certainly be somebody that we have an existing relationship with.
[00:56:08.760 --> 00:56:24.160] And so I think, again, that goes into that idea of cultivating, you know, having three decades or two decades or whatever it was by the time we met of cultivating these relationships that we could tap into.
[00:56:25.120 --> 00:56:25.920] So, yeah.
[00:56:26.240 --> 00:56:27.920] But hiring slowly has been great.
[00:56:28.240 --> 00:56:33.840] When there's a looming recession and we are not worried that we're not going to be able to meet payroll.
[00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:37.360] How has your job changed year to year?
[00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:39.600] I mean, it definitely changed once we hired people.
[00:56:40.720 --> 00:56:49.040] Once we hit, you know, a certain number, there were certain parts where I relaxed for sure.
[00:56:50.640 --> 00:56:54.240] And I think that's been really healthy.
[00:56:54.240 --> 00:57:05.120] And also when you add people, I think there is another part of it that speeds up, which is now you have other people challenging you and giving you ideas.
[00:57:05.120 --> 00:57:08.960] And, you know, Helen's talking to customers all the time and saying, bringing us stuff.
[00:57:08.960 --> 00:57:13.200] And it's like, okay, well, now we got to listen to this stuff and it's important.
[00:57:13.200 --> 00:57:25.200] And so I think, you know, now the pace of, I still think we're calm, but the pace definitely changed once we hired people.
[00:57:25.200 --> 00:57:35.520] Yeah, I think if we hadn't hired people, we may have started to become a little complacent and sort of just like, you know, thought everything was fine.
[00:57:35.520 --> 00:57:43.920] But they both injected like a really nice amount of energy into our day-to-day and the company in general.
[00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:46.160] Yeah, yeah, totally, totally, totally.
[00:57:49.920 --> 00:57:51.280] Hey, Build Your Sass listeners.
[00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:52.480] Chris the editor here.
[00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:56.000] As Justin alluded to in the episode, we're going to break this up into two episodes.
[00:57:56.000 --> 00:58:10.040] So make sure to come back for the next episode when Justin and John answer your questions about advice for startups, deciding on their tech stack, how they decided on pricing, hiring, and whether they have more or less stress in their lives now compared to when they started transistor.fm.
[00:58:10.040 --> 00:58:13.160] And before we go, let's get John back in here to thank the Patreon supporters.
[00:58:13.160 --> 00:58:14.680] Let's see what we got here.
[00:58:14.840 --> 00:59:01.160] We have Jason Charnes, Mitchell Davis from recruitkit.com.au, Marcel Falay from wearbold.af, Alex Payne, Bill Kondo, Anton Zorin from Prodcamp.com, Harris Kenney from the Intro to CRM podcast, Oleg Kulik, Ethan Gunderson, Ward Sandler from Memberspace, Russell Brown from Odevo.com, Noah Prale, Colin Gray, Austin Lovelace, Michael Sitfer, Paul Jarvis, and Jack Ellis from Fathom, my brother Dan Buddha, Darby Frey, Adam Devander, Dave Junta, Junta, and Kyle Fox from getrewardful.com.
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