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[00:00:01.280 --> 00:00:06.720] Because if what we had right there is like, we don't have to go work for anybody else ever again if we don't want to.
[00:00:06.720 --> 00:00:08.240] Like, we have freedom if we do this.
[00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:14.480] Well, like, I don't think there was any like big grand goals because, like, I wanted to have the freedom, but I also wanted to build a company that wasn't evil.
[00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:20.000] Hello, and welcome back to Indie Bytes, a podcast driving you story to fellow indie hackers in 15 minutes or less.
[00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:28.160] In this episode, I'm joined by Mary Beth Alexander, who's the founder and chief executive owl of Knowledge Owl, a bootstrap knowledge-based software founded in 2015.
[00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:32.480] This started as an idea within Survey Gizmo, where Mary Beth was working at the time.
[00:00:32.480 --> 00:00:40.640] The company has since flourished into a small, profitable, sustainable business, ultimately being built to improve the lives of the founders, employees, and customers.
[00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:52.640] In this episode, we talk about how Mary Beth bought the company from her previous employers, how they grew through fantastic reviews, and why more indie hackers should put customer happiness front and center to help grow their products.
[00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:56.080] And you know who else puts their customer happiness at the front and center?
[00:00:56.080 --> 00:00:58.800] My long-term sponsor, Email Octopus.
[00:00:58.800 --> 00:01:07.760] Email Octopus are an email platform focused on affordability with a very generous free plan and ease of use without some of these bloated features that a lot of the other email apps have.
[00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:15.440] So you can focus on what's important, like shipping and growing your audience, which regular listeners know is essential for growth in the early days.
[00:01:15.440 --> 00:01:24.320] So to get started with an email platform that just gets out of the way, when you can contact over 2,500 people for free, head to emailoptopus.com or hit the link in the show notes.
[00:01:24.320 --> 00:01:26.400] Let's get into this episode with Mary Beth.
[00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:27.840] Mary Beth, welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:28.640] How are you doing?
[00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:29.200] I'm good.
[00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:31.040] Thank you for having me.
[00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:32.080] It's good to have you.
[00:01:32.080 --> 00:01:35.920] And when I was looking through the story of KnowledgeOW, it was quite interesting.
[00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:43.680] Let me try and summarize what happened between 2011 when you were working at Survey Gizmo, 2015 where KnowledgeOW was born.
[00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:53.040] So it started as a help desk software within Survey Gizmo, which is you became product manager and then hired Pete to help with development, and you were both originally in support.
[00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:57.440] And then in 2015, you and Pete bought the company to go off on your own.
[00:01:57.440 --> 00:01:58.320] Is that about right?
[00:01:58.320 --> 00:01:59.880] Have I missed anything in?
[00:01:59.360 --> 00:02:04.520] I know I'm condensing four years into a little paragraph, but are there any points I've missed in that?
[00:01:59.600 --> 00:02:06.120] Sure, there's a few events.
[00:02:06.360 --> 00:02:13.880] So while Help Gizmo, the idea for it, started in 2011, it was like a quarter-long project that was immediately shut down, right?
[00:02:13.880 --> 00:02:14.520] And it was gone.
[00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:17.240] So it was like the idea came to life and then it died.
[00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:23.880] In 2012, I started a program called Developer and Training where I was training my support team to do development.
[00:02:23.880 --> 00:02:28.520] And Pete didn't last in support very long because he got hired into our regular development team.
[00:02:28.520 --> 00:02:36.680] But my internal, I created a support development team of support people who are developers now, and like they fixed bugs and made the product better.
[00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:41.880] And they brought Help Gizmo back to life as an internal knowledge-based tool, as a surprise for our team.
[00:02:41.880 --> 00:02:46.040] So we started using internally to document our own team's knowledge.
[00:02:46.040 --> 00:02:52.920] And then in 2013, our person who was doing the documentation for Survey Gizmo, the product, was like, I don't want to use Zendesk.
[00:02:52.920 --> 00:02:53.880] I don't want to use WordPress.
[00:02:53.880 --> 00:02:56.600] I want to use this for our customer-facing documentation.
[00:02:56.600 --> 00:03:04.840] So then we started using it for our customer-facing documentation, which at the time made the CEO of the company be like, maybe we, maybe there is something here.
[00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:06.520] Maybe we could bring this to market.
[00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:11.640] So late in 2013, I left my role as like the director of customer happiness.
[00:03:11.640 --> 00:03:17.000] So I was heading up the support team to take over as product manager or product owner of Help Gizmo.
[00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:19.640] And I was allowed to hire one developer from our company.
[00:03:19.640 --> 00:03:20.680] And I hired Pete.
[00:03:20.680 --> 00:03:30.200] So it was like late in 2013, we basically took this internal tool that we were using both for our internal documentation, our customer-facing documentation, and tried to figure out how to bring it to market.
[00:03:30.200 --> 00:03:32.600] Now, Chad gave me a little bit of insight.
[00:03:32.600 --> 00:03:34.520] Chad's your executive assistant.
[00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:42.600] He said that you had other job offers on the table and you could potentially be leaving Survey Gizmo.
[00:03:42.600 --> 00:03:48.000] And if you'd have resigned, you might not have had the opportunity to even buy the product.
[00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:49.600] So we had brought it to market.
[00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:53.920] We had customers, but we felt really isolated at the company.
[00:03:53.920 --> 00:03:55.840] And we could sort of read the writing on the wall.
[00:03:55.840 --> 00:03:57.600] Like they weren't really interested in doing it.
[00:03:57.600 --> 00:03:59.840] And I think there was some this.
[00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:02.000] We had a couple other gizmos happening.
[00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:08.640] And this was at the same time that like Basecamp, 37 Signals decided not to do all the separate products and just to focus on Basecamp.
[00:04:08.640 --> 00:04:10.480] And we could sort of read the writing on the wall.
[00:04:10.480 --> 00:04:14.320] Like this might get shut down or like we're not getting the support.
[00:04:14.320 --> 00:04:20.720] So we both did not tell the company we were working for with Help Gizmo, but we both went out there and found other jobs.
[00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:22.480] Pete actually had a laptop in hand.
[00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:24.000] The company had shipped him a laptop.
[00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:25.520] He was going to a company or a treat.
[00:04:25.520 --> 00:04:29.200] Like I had an offer letter, like all the things.
[00:04:29.200 --> 00:04:34.880] We just hadn't given a notice before when we got pulled out and then they were like, we're shutting down Help.
[00:04:34.960 --> 00:04:36.080] And then they said we're shutting it down.
[00:04:36.080 --> 00:04:40.720] But rather than we know you've been working really hard on it, they gave us the opportunity to buy it.
[00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:43.600] But they had no idea that we were also like headed out.
[00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:47.680] So if things had been like a day later or whatever, I don't know what would happen.
[00:04:48.640 --> 00:04:50.640] Timing was like everything right there.
[00:04:50.640 --> 00:04:57.920] So the rebrand to Knowledge Out, it kind of makes sense because you wanted to separate it from well, we had the option.
[00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:00.000] They're like, you could keep coming to the office.
[00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:01.920] And, you know, we won't charge you rent.
[00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:02.560] You can keep coming.
[00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:04.480] You can have an office here and come to the office.
[00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:10.800] And if you want to keep the brand, we can lease it, you know, or you can pay us to keep using the brand, Gizmo brand, the Help Gizmo brand.
[00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:12.240] And we're like, no, thanks.
[00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:13.680] I'll work from home.
[00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:15.360] Sounds way better.
[00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:17.680] We'll figure out a name.
[00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:24.400] And then, like, our monthly recurring revenue jumped like 20K the next month, which is like a really good, like, you're like, oh, so now we're close to it.
[00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:26.240] It jumped 20K the next month.
[00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:27.600] I know, right?
[00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:28.000] Why?
[00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:29.040] I don't know.
[00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:30.000] Like, who knows?
[00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:33.240] You must know how that happened.
[00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:34.840] 20K in a month.
[00:05:34.840 --> 00:05:36.680] I mean, 7,500.
[00:05:36.680 --> 00:05:38.840] We got some big customers that came in.
[00:05:38.840 --> 00:05:41.160] For some reason, we have like July's are really big for us.
[00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:42.680] And it was June when we bought the company.
[00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:45.480] And July is like, I don't know, is it like a fiscal year thing?
[00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:47.240] We have people like buy annual accounts.
[00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:49.080] And like, we had some big customers signed up.
[00:05:49.080 --> 00:05:52.200] But yeah, it jumped like 20K monthly recurring revenue.
[00:05:52.200 --> 00:05:56.840] We ended the year when we bought it with like 75, we ended at like 100.
[00:05:56.840 --> 00:06:00.600] And then like basically the next year it doubled and then like it went up 100k after that.
[00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:03.320] So like it grew pretty, pretty steadily.
[00:06:04.120 --> 00:06:09.320] So when you bought the company, what were your sort of goals and ambitions for KnowledgeOW?
[00:06:09.320 --> 00:06:10.280] What did you want it to become?
[00:06:10.280 --> 00:06:14.360] Were you just happy to sort of now you've got it, keep growing it, see where you go?
[00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:15.880] Did you want to raise VC?
[00:06:16.200 --> 00:06:18.280] No, definitely did not want to raise VC.
[00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:21.240] Wanted to keep going down the bootstrap, independent, sustainable.
[00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:27.080] Like for my, like, there's just this mantra in my head that was just constantly like sustainable growth, sustainable growth.
[00:06:27.080 --> 00:06:30.600] But like when I first took it over, it was really like, just don't kill it, right?
[00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:36.040] Like, because if what we had right there is like, we don't have to go work for anybody else ever again if we don't want to.
[00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:40.520] If we do this right, if things go well, we don't have to get another job, right?
[00:06:40.520 --> 00:06:42.120] Like we have freedom if we do this.
[00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:44.360] Like, I don't think there was any like big grand goals.
[00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:49.800] It's like I wanted to have the freedom, but I also wanted to build a company that wasn't evil or what I thought was evil, right?
[00:06:49.800 --> 00:06:53.160] Like I wanted to build the company that like I wanted to build, right?
[00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:54.600] Like I wanted to do things different.
[00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:59.800] Now, you said a little while ago about the fast growth that you had.
[00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:09.320] What were you doing in terms of marketing, growth, getting new customers over that time where you were getting a lot of MRR quite quickly?
[00:07:09.320 --> 00:07:11.160] I thought sales and marketing were bad words.
[00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:12.840] I didn't like the sales and marketing teams.
[00:07:12.840 --> 00:07:14.040] Like I always thought it was icky.
[00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:16.960] So like I didn't even consider that we did sales and marketing.
[00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:18.800] I mean, we had a website, right?
[00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:24.560] So we had a website and we publish on the blog sometimes.
[00:07:24.880 --> 00:07:27.280] But really, it was about reviews.
[00:07:27.280 --> 00:07:29.360] Like we participated very early.
[00:07:29.520 --> 00:07:34.240] Captera used to have, like, in the United States, there's like the March Madness competition.
[00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:39.520] They would do these review madness competitions each year that corresponded with the big basketball event.
[00:07:39.520 --> 00:07:44.080] But they would like basically pit, you know, companies against each other so you could get the most reviews.
[00:07:44.080 --> 00:07:46.720] And like customer service has always been our jam.
[00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:48.080] We both have a support background.
[00:07:48.080 --> 00:07:49.200] We love giving great service.
[00:07:49.200 --> 00:07:55.600] Like that is one thing is our customers have like always just really loved us and like we love them and it's like a good relationship and we take care of folks.
[00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:59.280] So like when we go out and ask people for reviews, they give us reviews.
[00:07:59.280 --> 00:08:06.640] So I think we finished in 2015, I think we finished in the top final four of all companies getting reviews and then we won it in 2016.
[00:08:06.640 --> 00:08:16.960] And I think that being part of those review competitions and getting a ton of those like really positive reviews early on, like we were beating Zendesk in like in like the Captera for a long time.
[00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:20.320] Do you still think sales and marketing are dirty words?
[00:08:20.320 --> 00:08:21.840] Have you got over your fear of it?
[00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:23.360] I'm working on it.
[00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:24.000] I'm actively.
[00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:27.200] In 2020, I wrote a five-year vision like for the company and myself.
[00:08:27.200 --> 00:08:30.560] And I was like, in 2025, sales and marketing are no longer going to be bad words.
[00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:38.720] And this whole past five years has me coming to grips with sales and marketing are not just a tax you pay for not having a great product or great service.
[00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:40.720] Like great companies do sales and marketing.
[00:08:40.720 --> 00:08:42.000] Sales and marketing are not evil.
[00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:45.520] It's just a tool and you can do it well or you can do it icky, right?
[00:08:45.520 --> 00:08:47.360] So we want to figure out how to do it well.
[00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:52.360] So, this has been like my learning curve, and we're trying to figure out how to actually do this and how to grow the company.
[00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:58.320] Because, really, early on, it was like the reviews and 1,000% word of mouth.
[00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:07.880] Mary Beth, do you think there are certain things within customer service that you see companies are just missing out on the basics?
[00:09:07.880 --> 00:09:12.120] So, I'll take a step before actually having top-notch customer service.
[00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:15.960] Because, like, if you want people to give great service, like, you got to give great service to them.
[00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:19.480] So, you got to hire great people, you got to pay them well, and you got to treat them well, right?
[00:09:19.640 --> 00:09:21.640] If you take care of them, they're going to take care of your customers.
[00:09:21.640 --> 00:09:25.480] And if you make it a priority to take care of them, I think they're going to take care of your customers.
[00:09:25.480 --> 00:09:30.280] But before that, I think a big thing is actually having documentation.
[00:09:30.280 --> 00:09:39.400] Like, this is getting meta, but like in a lot of products and a lot of services, people don't want to have to contact customer service, they just want to be able to figure it out on their own.
[00:09:39.400 --> 00:09:58.280] And if you don't have a knowledge base, a help center, product documentation, people are either going to like Google and see if somebody else has documentation, like, and good luck, like, maybe you're on Stack Overflow, maybe some people have a Reddit thread about you, but like, if you don't own your documentation, most people are not going to spend their time to be like, I'm going to contact this person.
[00:09:58.280 --> 00:10:02.120] No, they're going to go to a competitor and find someone that they can use without talking to somebody.
[00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:04.520] So, I think a lot of people are missing the belt.
[00:10:04.520 --> 00:10:10.520] And this is like, I just see this all the time because half of our customers are software companies and tech companies.
[00:10:10.520 --> 00:10:15.400] And a lot of them are coming to us and they don't have a place for customers to help themselves.
[00:10:15.400 --> 00:10:18.440] And, like, I think it's just a missed opportunity for a lot of people, right?
[00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:21.640] Other than that, like, there is so much terrible customer service out there.
[00:10:21.640 --> 00:10:27.160] And, like, people, people are trying, like, they try AI bots, they try chat bots, and they try all sorts of things.
[00:10:27.160 --> 00:10:31.880] And, like, I think customer service is typically not valued in our society.
[00:10:31.880 --> 00:10:33.560] It's generally low-paid jobs.
[00:10:33.560 --> 00:10:35.560] Like, we don't take care of the people doing the work.
[00:10:35.560 --> 00:10:42.600] But I think a lot of times, especially at the great small software companies, especially the bootstrappers, the indie hackers, like, they're the ones doing the support themselves early on, right?
[00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:46.240] It's founder-led support, which is great support because, hey, you're talking to the founder.
[00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:47.840] You have an issue, he fixes it for you.
[00:10:44.520 --> 00:10:49.440] You need a feature, he builds it for you.
[00:10:49.760 --> 00:10:54.160] And I think you get a lot of great service from the smaller companies, honestly.
[00:10:54.480 --> 00:11:01.520] Mary Beth, on the product, how are you choosing which features to build, what to ship, and being intentional about that?
[00:11:01.520 --> 00:11:14.000] Because you see, with a lot of companies, they might start out doing one specific thing, and then they'll start to move into other areas where they can build product and it might become bloated.
[00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:22.560] MailChimp is a great example of this of being a product that was focused on email marketing and now they're a full marketing platform because they have the pressure to do that.
[00:11:22.560 --> 00:11:25.280] So, how are you approaching building the product?
[00:11:25.280 --> 00:11:30.240] So, when we first started Help Gizmo, our angle was just like, we just make knowledge-based software.
[00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.760] We don't have a help desk, we don't have forums, we're just doing knowledge-based software.
[00:11:33.760 --> 00:11:41.280] It is, you know, that was like 2014 when we brought it to market like that, and it is 2024, and we're still just making knowledge-based software.
[00:11:41.280 --> 00:11:45.280] So, very early on, we said, like, we're just doing this one thing, and we're going to do it well.
[00:11:45.280 --> 00:11:52.400] And we just say, like, like people are like, We wish you would build the help desk, and we wish you would have forums, or we wish you had, like, basically an LMS.
[00:11:52.400 --> 00:11:54.400] Like, we want you to be an LMS.
[00:11:54.400 --> 00:11:57.520] And we basically created like our box that we're going to stay in.
[00:11:57.520 --> 00:12:00.480] Like, we can do whatever we want within the box, but like, we stay inside the box.
[00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:04.560] So, like, we know who we are, we know what product we are building.
[00:12:04.560 --> 00:12:13.520] But in terms of like what we choose to build, I mean, traditionally, it's just been what we call customer-driven development, which is basically support speak for, like, a customer comes to us and say, like, hey, I need this thing.
[00:12:13.520 --> 00:12:14.960] And we're like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.
[00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:16.160] Other people could use that too.
[00:12:16.160 --> 00:12:16.800] Let's build it.
[00:12:16.800 --> 00:12:17.040] Right.
[00:12:17.040 --> 00:12:20.160] So we would just listen to folks that would tell us what they want.
[00:12:20.160 --> 00:12:23.280] And so we had people who were coming from other tools that used for documentation.
[00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:24.880] Like, hey, this other tool has this thing.
[00:12:24.880 --> 00:12:26.160] That would be great to add.
[00:12:26.160 --> 00:12:27.600] Or, like, I would really like to see this.
[00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:32.280] Or, hey, I use this really high-end help authoring tool and they have this sort of feature that you could add.
[00:12:29.920 --> 00:12:33.640] And then we'd like start to build it in.
[00:12:33.800 --> 00:12:41.160] So I think just listening to our customers and just being close to them from the beginning, it becomes very clear what the patterns are, right?
[00:12:41.160 --> 00:12:43.880] Of like what people, you know, what our customers need.
[00:12:43.880 --> 00:12:48.200] And generally, our most popular features are often things that seemed silly at the time and a customer asked for them.
[00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:48.760] And then we did it.
[00:12:48.760 --> 00:12:50.840] And we're like, yeah, one of our most popular features.
[00:12:50.840 --> 00:13:01.080] How are we deciphering like what's actually a good fit for the products and other customers versus what, say, an enterprise customer might have a specific use case and ask for a product feature?
[00:13:01.400 --> 00:13:02.040] Right.
[00:13:02.040 --> 00:13:11.720] So that is that is like a maybe a healthy tension that we have in the business because we do have like a handful of those like big enterprise customers.
[00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:16.440] And I can tell you like our big enterprise customers pay us as much as every single one of our legacy combined.
[00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:25.960] So like we sort of separate these things out and say like, okay, like are these like enterprise features that will make the enterprise people happy and everybody else can use too?
[00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:28.680] You know, or is it just for these people?
[00:13:28.680 --> 00:13:30.920] So I think we try to look at like the win-win.
[00:13:30.920 --> 00:13:36.200] Like are like our like ideal customers going to benefit from having this feature.
[00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:38.600] Final thing on marketing and growth.
[00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:50.840] How much do you think your cute quirky brand of KnowledgeOW, the Owl, the mascot, the fun copywriting you do, how much do you think that's played a part in your growth?
[00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:56.520] Because I don't see a lot of indie hackers like putting this personality into their brands as much as you have.
[00:13:56.520 --> 00:13:59.800] I mean, for me, I mean, it just makes work more fun for me.
[00:13:59.800 --> 00:14:02.120] And if it's more fun for me, I want to work on it.
[00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:03.640] And I think that's the same for a product.
[00:14:03.640 --> 00:14:07.400] If a product is fun to use, like you want to spend your time in it, right?
[00:14:07.400 --> 00:14:08.600] Like, what products do you like using?
[00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:10.440] Like, they bring you some joy, right?
[00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:14.120] Or like emails that you actually open, like marketing emails because they're funny, right?
[00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:18.000] Or you find value in what they are sharing and how they are sharing it.
[00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:24.880] I don't know if we could separate that from like why the like if we had like a boring like corporate name, like would we have been successful?
[00:14:24.880 --> 00:14:26.000] Like maybe.
[00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:26.240] Yeah.
[00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:27.440] But like I would have been out years.
[00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:28.800] Like I was like, this is boring.
[00:14:29.040 --> 00:14:30.320] Like I wouldn't have wanted to do it.
[00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:35.760] And I don't think we would have attracted the same people who like came to work with us and helped get knowledge all to where it is today.
[00:14:35.760 --> 00:14:39.120] Like I think it is 1,000% part of our identity.
[00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:41.280] And I think like a lot of business is boring.
[00:14:41.280 --> 00:14:44.080] A lot of life can be really boring and dull, especially adulting.
[00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:47.680] Like it's just, it's, you know, things can get really, really dull.
[00:14:47.680 --> 00:14:52.080] And I think having a little bit of fun is helpful for everyone.
[00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:52.560] Absolutely.
[00:14:52.560 --> 00:14:59.280] And you can sort of see that throughout all of your marketing copy, the things you're posting on the internet.
[00:14:59.280 --> 00:15:01.920] You can see you're having fun with it and being creative.
[00:15:01.920 --> 00:15:08.000] And it's interesting that maybe if you were more corporate and more sterile, it might not have necessarily been as fun.
[00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:17.200] Mary Beth, I end every episode on three recommendations: a book, a podcast, and an indie hacker entrepreneur.
[00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:18.800] What have you got for me?
[00:15:18.800 --> 00:15:21.760] So I'm going with Buy Back Your Time, Dan Martel.
[00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:24.640] It's a big, impactful book for me that I read last year.
[00:15:24.800 --> 00:15:28.400] Podcast has been Startup to Last, who Chad, my assistant, turned me on to.
[00:15:28.400 --> 00:15:30.000] And I'm like, oh man, I'm not alone.
[00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:31.680] This is another company that's very much like me.
[00:15:31.680 --> 00:15:34.240] And I get to hear everything that's going on behind them.
[00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:36.720] And I'm going to cheat because I'm new to the indie hackers.
[00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:41.120] But I'm going to tell you about an entrepreneur that I love, which is Ari Weinsweig.
[00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:45.440] And he wrote the lapsed anarchist approach to building a great business.
[00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:48.880] And he runs business and thinks about business a very different way.
[00:15:48.880 --> 00:15:50.800] So, those are my recommendations.
[00:15:50.800 --> 00:15:53.360] Those are fantastic recommendations, Mary Beth.
[00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:56.000] Thank you so much for coming on this episode of Indie Bytes.
[00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:57.760] Thank you for having me.
[00:15:57.760 --> 00:16:03.960] Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Indiebites, and a big thank you to my sponsor, Emo Oxbus, for making the show happen.
[00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:04.920] That's all from me.
[00:15:59.920 --> 00:16:07.000] More episodes coming very soon.

Prompt 2: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 3: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 4: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Full Transcript

[00:00:01.280 --> 00:00:06.720] Because if what we had right there is like, we don't have to go work for anybody else ever again if we don't want to.
[00:00:06.720 --> 00:00:08.240] Like, we have freedom if we do this.
[00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:14.480] Well, like, I don't think there was any like big grand goals because, like, I wanted to have the freedom, but I also wanted to build a company that wasn't evil.
[00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:20.000] Hello, and welcome back to Indie Bytes, a podcast driving you story to fellow indie hackers in 15 minutes or less.
[00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:28.160] In this episode, I'm joined by Mary Beth Alexander, who's the founder and chief executive owl of Knowledge Owl, a bootstrap knowledge-based software founded in 2015.
[00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:32.480] This started as an idea within Survey Gizmo, where Mary Beth was working at the time.
[00:00:32.480 --> 00:00:40.640] The company has since flourished into a small, profitable, sustainable business, ultimately being built to improve the lives of the founders, employees, and customers.
[00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:52.640] In this episode, we talk about how Mary Beth bought the company from her previous employers, how they grew through fantastic reviews, and why more indie hackers should put customer happiness front and center to help grow their products.
[00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:56.080] And you know who else puts their customer happiness at the front and center?
[00:00:56.080 --> 00:00:58.800] My long-term sponsor, Email Octopus.
[00:00:58.800 --> 00:01:07.760] Email Octopus are an email platform focused on affordability with a very generous free plan and ease of use without some of these bloated features that a lot of the other email apps have.
[00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:15.440] So you can focus on what's important, like shipping and growing your audience, which regular listeners know is essential for growth in the early days.
[00:01:15.440 --> 00:01:24.320] So to get started with an email platform that just gets out of the way, when you can contact over 2,500 people for free, head to emailoptopus.com or hit the link in the show notes.
[00:01:24.320 --> 00:01:26.400] Let's get into this episode with Mary Beth.
[00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:27.840] Mary Beth, welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:28.640] How are you doing?
[00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:29.200] I'm good.
[00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:31.040] Thank you for having me.
[00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:32.080] It's good to have you.
[00:01:32.080 --> 00:01:35.920] And when I was looking through the story of KnowledgeOW, it was quite interesting.
[00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:43.680] Let me try and summarize what happened between 2011 when you were working at Survey Gizmo, 2015 where KnowledgeOW was born.
[00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:53.040] So it started as a help desk software within Survey Gizmo, which is you became product manager and then hired Pete to help with development, and you were both originally in support.
[00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:57.440] And then in 2015, you and Pete bought the company to go off on your own.
[00:01:57.440 --> 00:01:58.320] Is that about right?
[00:01:58.320 --> 00:01:59.880] Have I missed anything in?
[00:01:59.360 --> 00:02:04.520] I know I'm condensing four years into a little paragraph, but are there any points I've missed in that?
[00:01:59.600 --> 00:02:06.120] Sure, there's a few events.
[00:02:06.360 --> 00:02:13.880] So while Help Gizmo, the idea for it, started in 2011, it was like a quarter-long project that was immediately shut down, right?
[00:02:13.880 --> 00:02:14.520] And it was gone.
[00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:17.240] So it was like the idea came to life and then it died.
[00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:23.880] In 2012, I started a program called Developer and Training where I was training my support team to do development.
[00:02:23.880 --> 00:02:28.520] And Pete didn't last in support very long because he got hired into our regular development team.
[00:02:28.520 --> 00:02:36.680] But my internal, I created a support development team of support people who are developers now, and like they fixed bugs and made the product better.
[00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:41.880] And they brought Help Gizmo back to life as an internal knowledge-based tool, as a surprise for our team.
[00:02:41.880 --> 00:02:46.040] So we started using internally to document our own team's knowledge.
[00:02:46.040 --> 00:02:52.920] And then in 2013, our person who was doing the documentation for Survey Gizmo, the product, was like, I don't want to use Zendesk.
[00:02:52.920 --> 00:02:53.880] I don't want to use WordPress.
[00:02:53.880 --> 00:02:56.600] I want to use this for our customer-facing documentation.
[00:02:56.600 --> 00:03:04.840] So then we started using it for our customer-facing documentation, which at the time made the CEO of the company be like, maybe we, maybe there is something here.
[00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:06.520] Maybe we could bring this to market.
[00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:11.640] So late in 2013, I left my role as like the director of customer happiness.
[00:03:11.640 --> 00:03:17.000] So I was heading up the support team to take over as product manager or product owner of Help Gizmo.
[00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:19.640] And I was allowed to hire one developer from our company.
[00:03:19.640 --> 00:03:20.680] And I hired Pete.
[00:03:20.680 --> 00:03:30.200] So it was like late in 2013, we basically took this internal tool that we were using both for our internal documentation, our customer-facing documentation, and tried to figure out how to bring it to market.
[00:03:30.200 --> 00:03:32.600] Now, Chad gave me a little bit of insight.
[00:03:32.600 --> 00:03:34.520] Chad's your executive assistant.
[00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:42.600] He said that you had other job offers on the table and you could potentially be leaving Survey Gizmo.
[00:03:42.600 --> 00:03:48.000] And if you'd have resigned, you might not have had the opportunity to even buy the product.
[00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:49.600] So we had brought it to market.
[00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:53.920] We had customers, but we felt really isolated at the company.
[00:03:53.920 --> 00:03:55.840] And we could sort of read the writing on the wall.
[00:03:55.840 --> 00:03:57.600] Like they weren't really interested in doing it.
[00:03:57.600 --> 00:03:59.840] And I think there was some this.
[00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:02.000] We had a couple other gizmos happening.
[00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:08.640] And this was at the same time that like Basecamp, 37 Signals decided not to do all the separate products and just to focus on Basecamp.
[00:04:08.640 --> 00:04:10.480] And we could sort of read the writing on the wall.
[00:04:10.480 --> 00:04:14.320] Like this might get shut down or like we're not getting the support.
[00:04:14.320 --> 00:04:20.720] So we both did not tell the company we were working for with Help Gizmo, but we both went out there and found other jobs.
[00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:22.480] Pete actually had a laptop in hand.
[00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:24.000] The company had shipped him a laptop.
[00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:25.520] He was going to a company or a treat.
[00:04:25.520 --> 00:04:29.200] Like I had an offer letter, like all the things.
[00:04:29.200 --> 00:04:34.880] We just hadn't given a notice before when we got pulled out and then they were like, we're shutting down Help.
[00:04:34.960 --> 00:04:36.080] And then they said we're shutting it down.
[00:04:36.080 --> 00:04:40.720] But rather than we know you've been working really hard on it, they gave us the opportunity to buy it.
[00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:43.600] But they had no idea that we were also like headed out.
[00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:47.680] So if things had been like a day later or whatever, I don't know what would happen.
[00:04:48.640 --> 00:04:50.640] Timing was like everything right there.
[00:04:50.640 --> 00:04:57.920] So the rebrand to Knowledge Out, it kind of makes sense because you wanted to separate it from well, we had the option.
[00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:00.000] They're like, you could keep coming to the office.
[00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:01.920] And, you know, we won't charge you rent.
[00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:02.560] You can keep coming.
[00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:04.480] You can have an office here and come to the office.
[00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:10.800] And if you want to keep the brand, we can lease it, you know, or you can pay us to keep using the brand, Gizmo brand, the Help Gizmo brand.
[00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:12.240] And we're like, no, thanks.
[00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:13.680] I'll work from home.
[00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:15.360] Sounds way better.
[00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:17.680] We'll figure out a name.
[00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:24.400] And then, like, our monthly recurring revenue jumped like 20K the next month, which is like a really good, like, you're like, oh, so now we're close to it.
[00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:26.240] It jumped 20K the next month.
[00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:27.600] I know, right?
[00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:28.000] Why?
[00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:29.040] I don't know.
[00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:30.000] Like, who knows?
[00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:33.240] You must know how that happened.
[00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:34.840] 20K in a month.
[00:05:34.840 --> 00:05:36.680] I mean, 7,500.
[00:05:36.680 --> 00:05:38.840] We got some big customers that came in.
[00:05:38.840 --> 00:05:41.160] For some reason, we have like July's are really big for us.
[00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:42.680] And it was June when we bought the company.
[00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:45.480] And July is like, I don't know, is it like a fiscal year thing?
[00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:47.240] We have people like buy annual accounts.
[00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:49.080] And like, we had some big customers signed up.
[00:05:49.080 --> 00:05:52.200] But yeah, it jumped like 20K monthly recurring revenue.
[00:05:52.200 --> 00:05:56.840] We ended the year when we bought it with like 75, we ended at like 100.
[00:05:56.840 --> 00:06:00.600] And then like basically the next year it doubled and then like it went up 100k after that.
[00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:03.320] So like it grew pretty, pretty steadily.
[00:06:04.120 --> 00:06:09.320] So when you bought the company, what were your sort of goals and ambitions for KnowledgeOW?
[00:06:09.320 --> 00:06:10.280] What did you want it to become?
[00:06:10.280 --> 00:06:14.360] Were you just happy to sort of now you've got it, keep growing it, see where you go?
[00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:15.880] Did you want to raise VC?
[00:06:16.200 --> 00:06:18.280] No, definitely did not want to raise VC.
[00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:21.240] Wanted to keep going down the bootstrap, independent, sustainable.
[00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:27.080] Like for my, like, there's just this mantra in my head that was just constantly like sustainable growth, sustainable growth.
[00:06:27.080 --> 00:06:30.600] But like when I first took it over, it was really like, just don't kill it, right?
[00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:36.040] Like, because if what we had right there is like, we don't have to go work for anybody else ever again if we don't want to.
[00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:40.520] If we do this right, if things go well, we don't have to get another job, right?
[00:06:40.520 --> 00:06:42.120] Like we have freedom if we do this.
[00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:44.360] Like, I don't think there was any like big grand goals.
[00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:49.800] It's like I wanted to have the freedom, but I also wanted to build a company that wasn't evil or what I thought was evil, right?
[00:06:49.800 --> 00:06:53.160] Like I wanted to build the company that like I wanted to build, right?
[00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:54.600] Like I wanted to do things different.
[00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:59.800] Now, you said a little while ago about the fast growth that you had.
[00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:09.320] What were you doing in terms of marketing, growth, getting new customers over that time where you were getting a lot of MRR quite quickly?
[00:07:09.320 --> 00:07:11.160] I thought sales and marketing were bad words.
[00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:12.840] I didn't like the sales and marketing teams.
[00:07:12.840 --> 00:07:14.040] Like I always thought it was icky.
[00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:16.960] So like I didn't even consider that we did sales and marketing.
[00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:18.800] I mean, we had a website, right?
[00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:24.560] So we had a website and we publish on the blog sometimes.
[00:07:24.880 --> 00:07:27.280] But really, it was about reviews.
[00:07:27.280 --> 00:07:29.360] Like we participated very early.
[00:07:29.520 --> 00:07:34.240] Captera used to have, like, in the United States, there's like the March Madness competition.
[00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:39.520] They would do these review madness competitions each year that corresponded with the big basketball event.
[00:07:39.520 --> 00:07:44.080] But they would like basically pit, you know, companies against each other so you could get the most reviews.
[00:07:44.080 --> 00:07:46.720] And like customer service has always been our jam.
[00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:48.080] We both have a support background.
[00:07:48.080 --> 00:07:49.200] We love giving great service.
[00:07:49.200 --> 00:07:55.600] Like that is one thing is our customers have like always just really loved us and like we love them and it's like a good relationship and we take care of folks.
[00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:59.280] So like when we go out and ask people for reviews, they give us reviews.
[00:07:59.280 --> 00:08:06.640] So I think we finished in 2015, I think we finished in the top final four of all companies getting reviews and then we won it in 2016.
[00:08:06.640 --> 00:08:16.960] And I think that being part of those review competitions and getting a ton of those like really positive reviews early on, like we were beating Zendesk in like in like the Captera for a long time.
[00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:20.320] Do you still think sales and marketing are dirty words?
[00:08:20.320 --> 00:08:21.840] Have you got over your fear of it?
[00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:23.360] I'm working on it.
[00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:24.000] I'm actively.
[00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:27.200] In 2020, I wrote a five-year vision like for the company and myself.
[00:08:27.200 --> 00:08:30.560] And I was like, in 2025, sales and marketing are no longer going to be bad words.
[00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:38.720] And this whole past five years has me coming to grips with sales and marketing are not just a tax you pay for not having a great product or great service.
[00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:40.720] Like great companies do sales and marketing.
[00:08:40.720 --> 00:08:42.000] Sales and marketing are not evil.
[00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:45.520] It's just a tool and you can do it well or you can do it icky, right?
[00:08:45.520 --> 00:08:47.360] So we want to figure out how to do it well.
[00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:52.360] So, this has been like my learning curve, and we're trying to figure out how to actually do this and how to grow the company.
[00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:58.320] Because, really, early on, it was like the reviews and 1,000% word of mouth.
[00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:07.880] Mary Beth, do you think there are certain things within customer service that you see companies are just missing out on the basics?
[00:09:07.880 --> 00:09:12.120] So, I'll take a step before actually having top-notch customer service.
[00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:15.960] Because, like, if you want people to give great service, like, you got to give great service to them.
[00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:19.480] So, you got to hire great people, you got to pay them well, and you got to treat them well, right?
[00:09:19.640 --> 00:09:21.640] If you take care of them, they're going to take care of your customers.
[00:09:21.640 --> 00:09:25.480] And if you make it a priority to take care of them, I think they're going to take care of your customers.
[00:09:25.480 --> 00:09:30.280] But before that, I think a big thing is actually having documentation.
[00:09:30.280 --> 00:09:39.400] Like, this is getting meta, but like in a lot of products and a lot of services, people don't want to have to contact customer service, they just want to be able to figure it out on their own.
[00:09:39.400 --> 00:09:58.280] And if you don't have a knowledge base, a help center, product documentation, people are either going to like Google and see if somebody else has documentation, like, and good luck, like, maybe you're on Stack Overflow, maybe some people have a Reddit thread about you, but like, if you don't own your documentation, most people are not going to spend their time to be like, I'm going to contact this person.
[00:09:58.280 --> 00:10:02.120] No, they're going to go to a competitor and find someone that they can use without talking to somebody.
[00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:04.520] So, I think a lot of people are missing the belt.
[00:10:04.520 --> 00:10:10.520] And this is like, I just see this all the time because half of our customers are software companies and tech companies.
[00:10:10.520 --> 00:10:15.400] And a lot of them are coming to us and they don't have a place for customers to help themselves.
[00:10:15.400 --> 00:10:18.440] And, like, I think it's just a missed opportunity for a lot of people, right?
[00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:21.640] Other than that, like, there is so much terrible customer service out there.
[00:10:21.640 --> 00:10:27.160] And, like, people, people are trying, like, they try AI bots, they try chat bots, and they try all sorts of things.
[00:10:27.160 --> 00:10:31.880] And, like, I think customer service is typically not valued in our society.
[00:10:31.880 --> 00:10:33.560] It's generally low-paid jobs.
[00:10:33.560 --> 00:10:35.560] Like, we don't take care of the people doing the work.
[00:10:35.560 --> 00:10:42.600] But I think a lot of times, especially at the great small software companies, especially the bootstrappers, the indie hackers, like, they're the ones doing the support themselves early on, right?
[00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:46.240] It's founder-led support, which is great support because, hey, you're talking to the founder.
[00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:47.840] You have an issue, he fixes it for you.
[00:10:44.520 --> 00:10:49.440] You need a feature, he builds it for you.
[00:10:49.760 --> 00:10:54.160] And I think you get a lot of great service from the smaller companies, honestly.
[00:10:54.480 --> 00:11:01.520] Mary Beth, on the product, how are you choosing which features to build, what to ship, and being intentional about that?
[00:11:01.520 --> 00:11:14.000] Because you see, with a lot of companies, they might start out doing one specific thing, and then they'll start to move into other areas where they can build product and it might become bloated.
[00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:22.560] MailChimp is a great example of this of being a product that was focused on email marketing and now they're a full marketing platform because they have the pressure to do that.
[00:11:22.560 --> 00:11:25.280] So, how are you approaching building the product?
[00:11:25.280 --> 00:11:30.240] So, when we first started Help Gizmo, our angle was just like, we just make knowledge-based software.
[00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.760] We don't have a help desk, we don't have forums, we're just doing knowledge-based software.
[00:11:33.760 --> 00:11:41.280] It is, you know, that was like 2014 when we brought it to market like that, and it is 2024, and we're still just making knowledge-based software.
[00:11:41.280 --> 00:11:45.280] So, very early on, we said, like, we're just doing this one thing, and we're going to do it well.
[00:11:45.280 --> 00:11:52.400] And we just say, like, like people are like, We wish you would build the help desk, and we wish you would have forums, or we wish you had, like, basically an LMS.
[00:11:52.400 --> 00:11:54.400] Like, we want you to be an LMS.
[00:11:54.400 --> 00:11:57.520] And we basically created like our box that we're going to stay in.
[00:11:57.520 --> 00:12:00.480] Like, we can do whatever we want within the box, but like, we stay inside the box.
[00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:04.560] So, like, we know who we are, we know what product we are building.
[00:12:04.560 --> 00:12:13.520] But in terms of like what we choose to build, I mean, traditionally, it's just been what we call customer-driven development, which is basically support speak for, like, a customer comes to us and say, like, hey, I need this thing.
[00:12:13.520 --> 00:12:14.960] And we're like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.
[00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:16.160] Other people could use that too.
[00:12:16.160 --> 00:12:16.800] Let's build it.
[00:12:16.800 --> 00:12:17.040] Right.
[00:12:17.040 --> 00:12:20.160] So we would just listen to folks that would tell us what they want.
[00:12:20.160 --> 00:12:23.280] And so we had people who were coming from other tools that used for documentation.
[00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:24.880] Like, hey, this other tool has this thing.
[00:12:24.880 --> 00:12:26.160] That would be great to add.
[00:12:26.160 --> 00:12:27.600] Or, like, I would really like to see this.
[00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:32.280] Or, hey, I use this really high-end help authoring tool and they have this sort of feature that you could add.
[00:12:29.920 --> 00:12:33.640] And then we'd like start to build it in.
[00:12:33.800 --> 00:12:41.160] So I think just listening to our customers and just being close to them from the beginning, it becomes very clear what the patterns are, right?
[00:12:41.160 --> 00:12:43.880] Of like what people, you know, what our customers need.
[00:12:43.880 --> 00:12:48.200] And generally, our most popular features are often things that seemed silly at the time and a customer asked for them.
[00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:48.760] And then we did it.
[00:12:48.760 --> 00:12:50.840] And we're like, yeah, one of our most popular features.
[00:12:50.840 --> 00:13:01.080] How are we deciphering like what's actually a good fit for the products and other customers versus what, say, an enterprise customer might have a specific use case and ask for a product feature?
[00:13:01.400 --> 00:13:02.040] Right.
[00:13:02.040 --> 00:13:11.720] So that is that is like a maybe a healthy tension that we have in the business because we do have like a handful of those like big enterprise customers.
[00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:16.440] And I can tell you like our big enterprise customers pay us as much as every single one of our legacy combined.
[00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:25.960] So like we sort of separate these things out and say like, okay, like are these like enterprise features that will make the enterprise people happy and everybody else can use too?
[00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:28.680] You know, or is it just for these people?
[00:13:28.680 --> 00:13:30.920] So I think we try to look at like the win-win.
[00:13:30.920 --> 00:13:36.200] Like are like our like ideal customers going to benefit from having this feature.
[00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:38.600] Final thing on marketing and growth.
[00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:50.840] How much do you think your cute quirky brand of KnowledgeOW, the Owl, the mascot, the fun copywriting you do, how much do you think that's played a part in your growth?
[00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:56.520] Because I don't see a lot of indie hackers like putting this personality into their brands as much as you have.
[00:13:56.520 --> 00:13:59.800] I mean, for me, I mean, it just makes work more fun for me.
[00:13:59.800 --> 00:14:02.120] And if it's more fun for me, I want to work on it.
[00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:03.640] And I think that's the same for a product.
[00:14:03.640 --> 00:14:07.400] If a product is fun to use, like you want to spend your time in it, right?
[00:14:07.400 --> 00:14:08.600] Like, what products do you like using?
[00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:10.440] Like, they bring you some joy, right?
[00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:14.120] Or like emails that you actually open, like marketing emails because they're funny, right?
[00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:18.000] Or you find value in what they are sharing and how they are sharing it.
[00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:24.880] I don't know if we could separate that from like why the like if we had like a boring like corporate name, like would we have been successful?
[00:14:24.880 --> 00:14:26.000] Like maybe.
[00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:26.240] Yeah.
[00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:27.440] But like I would have been out years.
[00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:28.800] Like I was like, this is boring.
[00:14:29.040 --> 00:14:30.320] Like I wouldn't have wanted to do it.
[00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:35.760] And I don't think we would have attracted the same people who like came to work with us and helped get knowledge all to where it is today.
[00:14:35.760 --> 00:14:39.120] Like I think it is 1,000% part of our identity.
[00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:41.280] And I think like a lot of business is boring.
[00:14:41.280 --> 00:14:44.080] A lot of life can be really boring and dull, especially adulting.
[00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:47.680] Like it's just, it's, you know, things can get really, really dull.
[00:14:47.680 --> 00:14:52.080] And I think having a little bit of fun is helpful for everyone.
[00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:52.560] Absolutely.
[00:14:52.560 --> 00:14:59.280] And you can sort of see that throughout all of your marketing copy, the things you're posting on the internet.
[00:14:59.280 --> 00:15:01.920] You can see you're having fun with it and being creative.
[00:15:01.920 --> 00:15:08.000] And it's interesting that maybe if you were more corporate and more sterile, it might not have necessarily been as fun.
[00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:17.200] Mary Beth, I end every episode on three recommendations: a book, a podcast, and an indie hacker entrepreneur.
[00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:18.800] What have you got for me?
[00:15:18.800 --> 00:15:21.760] So I'm going with Buy Back Your Time, Dan Martel.
[00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:24.640] It's a big, impactful book for me that I read last year.
[00:15:24.800 --> 00:15:28.400] Podcast has been Startup to Last, who Chad, my assistant, turned me on to.
[00:15:28.400 --> 00:15:30.000] And I'm like, oh man, I'm not alone.
[00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:31.680] This is another company that's very much like me.
[00:15:31.680 --> 00:15:34.240] And I get to hear everything that's going on behind them.
[00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:36.720] And I'm going to cheat because I'm new to the indie hackers.
[00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:41.120] But I'm going to tell you about an entrepreneur that I love, which is Ari Weinsweig.
[00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:45.440] And he wrote the lapsed anarchist approach to building a great business.
[00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:48.880] And he runs business and thinks about business a very different way.
[00:15:48.880 --> 00:15:50.800] So, those are my recommendations.
[00:15:50.800 --> 00:15:53.360] Those are fantastic recommendations, Mary Beth.
[00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:56.000] Thank you so much for coming on this episode of Indie Bytes.
[00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:57.760] Thank you for having me.
[00:15:57.760 --> 00:16:03.960] Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Indiebites, and a big thank you to my sponsor, Emo Oxbus, for making the show happen.
[00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:04.920] That's all from me.
[00:15:59.920 --> 00:16:07.000] More episodes coming very soon.