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[00:00:01.520 --> 00:00:03.600] No, I don't agree.
[00:00:03.840 --> 00:00:06.400] And I don't really know where you're getting this impression from.
[00:00:06.400 --> 00:00:10.160] Like, okay, so for sure there are bad no-code apps out there.
[00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:16.480] But if you build a no-code app well, if you know what you're doing, then for sure it can scale.
[00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:21.840] Hello, and welcome back to Indiebytes, the podcast where I bring you stories of fellow indie hackers in 15 minutes or less.
[00:00:21.840 --> 00:00:23.600] I'm your host, James McKimbon.
[00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:30.960] In this episode, I'm joined by Kieran Ball, who is the founder of No Code Life, a selection of case studies of those making successful businesses using Nocode.
[00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:36.480] Kieran also has courses on how to become a Nocode SaaS founder, specifically using the Bubble platform.
[00:00:36.480 --> 00:00:46.880] I wanted to get Kieran on the pod to discuss and challenge him on the No Code movement and if you can actually create a scalable product using the tools available or if Nocode serves a slightly different purpose.
[00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:54.720] Now if you enjoyed my back and forth with Kieran about Nocode, there is an extended version of the chat available on the Indiebytes membership for just $60 a year.
[00:00:54.720 --> 00:00:56.880] Head to indiebytes.com slash membership.
[00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:00.080] And before we get into it, I'd like to thank my sponsor, Email Octopus.
[00:01:00.080 --> 00:01:13.920] Now EmailOctopus are the email platform focused on affordability and ease of use with a very generous free plan and without some of those bloated features so you can focus on shipping and growing your audience which regular listeners know is essential for growth in the early days.
[00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:20.720] So to get started with an email platform that just gets out the way you can contact up to 2,500 subscribers for free.
[00:01:20.720 --> 00:01:23.680] Head to emailoctopus.com and hit the link in the show notes.
[00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:25.680] Let's get into this chat with Kieran.
[00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:27.040] Kieran, welcome to the pod.
[00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:27.760] How you doing?
[00:01:27.760 --> 00:01:28.480] I'm doing good.
[00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:29.360] Thanks for having me.
[00:01:29.360 --> 00:01:31.360] So let's get into who Kieran is.
[00:01:31.360 --> 00:01:34.960] I put here you worked in finance and you're a spreadsheet bro.
[00:01:34.960 --> 00:01:35.920] Is that right?
[00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:43.360] I started out my career in finance using a lot of spreadsheets, very, very corporate, and I didn't like the banking aspect.
[00:01:43.360 --> 00:01:50.480] My favourite thing about it was using spreadsheets, which sounds really nerdy, I know, but I think there's a lot of people out there who like spreadsheets.
[00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:56.640] And the thing I liked about spreadsheets would be sitting down and trying to make a new spreadsheet that did cool stuff and had inputs and outputs.
[00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:58.560] And it was basically like a simple app.
[00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:02.520] And I always dreamed of being able to turn a spreadsheet into an app.
[00:02:02.520 --> 00:02:07.480] So that was kind of like the beginnings of my interest in no-code.
[00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:11.480] You have tried and failed to learn code.
[00:02:11.480 --> 00:02:16.360] I know a lot of people who have tried and failed to code.
[00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:17.880] So what was your story?
[00:02:17.880 --> 00:02:25.080] Yeah, I mean, I spent probably a decade on and off trying to learn to code, doing like Code Academy, doing JavaScript and stuff like that.
[00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:29.880] And the thing that I always found the most difficult, like the actual coding part, I quite liked.
[00:02:29.880 --> 00:02:32.920] Like simple JavaScript in Code Academy was good.
[00:02:32.920 --> 00:02:44.120] But the thing I didn't like was often it just feels like you're trying to get your environment set up on your laptop and you're copying and pasting commands from Stack Overflow into your like terminal.
[00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:47.160] And I was thinking, I don't understand what any of these things are doing.
[00:02:47.160 --> 00:02:50.120] I could paste the wrong thing and totally wipe my entire computer.
[00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:51.960] Like I have no idea.
[00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:54.520] But I found that stuff really, really difficult.
[00:02:54.520 --> 00:03:02.200] I think it's different now because you've got stuff like Replit, which takes care of all those different things, the servers and your environment, and you just do the code.
[00:03:02.200 --> 00:03:05.560] So I think maybe if I learned now, it would be a different story.
[00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:11.320] I've kind of had a similar experience and it sort of leads us nicely into no code.
[00:03:11.320 --> 00:03:25.160] I'm grateful that there are no code tools available that mean not only can I create the media content that I do that is more in my skills there and doesn't require needing how to code, but you can now create SaaS apps and various other things.
[00:03:25.160 --> 00:03:33.160] When did you discover it and get into it and where does it sort of fit into the timeline of you dabbling with code, working in startups?
[00:03:33.480 --> 00:03:45.920] So, in 2015, I co-founded a tech startup with a coder, and I was the non-technical one and we eventually had a team of like 15 developers.
[00:03:45.920 --> 00:03:50.080] And so, I'd spent many years like working alongside these guys.
[00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:53.600] And then I was still like playing around in my spare time with side projects.
[00:03:53.600 --> 00:04:03.920] And then, in 2019, I think I saw a tweet or something on Product Hunt, and I discovered, first I discovered Glide Apps, which their promises turn a spreadsheet into an app.
[00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:07.120] And naturally, I was like, oh my God, this is what I've been looking for.
[00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:09.520] So, I started using that and making little apps.
[00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:11.680] And then I quickly found Bubble.
[00:04:11.920 --> 00:04:17.120] I just logged in and dragged some stuff onto the page and added some buttons and then added a workflow.
[00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:21.520] And I was like, oh my God, this is exactly what I want.
[00:04:21.520 --> 00:04:28.880] Within two months of discovering it, I had built a full SaaS app with payments and like pretty cool functionality.
[00:04:28.880 --> 00:04:31.360] It was like a video testimonials tool.
[00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:36.640] When I messed you, I was asking for some of your thoughts on No Code and what you've done.
[00:04:36.640 --> 00:04:41.520] And you said you've built and launched multiple SaaS products, albeit with minimal success.
[00:04:41.520 --> 00:04:44.720] And I'm guessing a lot of these SaaS products have been using No Code.
[00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.400] And here's where I think the problem is a lot of the time.
[00:04:48.400 --> 00:04:54.240] That it's really hard to launch something and make it successful with No Code because it always feels kind of hacky.
[00:04:54.240 --> 00:05:02.000] Do you think your minimal success with a lot of these SaaS products are due to it being no-code or the position in the product, the market?
[00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:12.800] Because if you follow what Damon's done with Testimonial and now Sender, that would suggest that it's not the market or the idea of the positioning?
[00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:15.760] No, I think it's 100% the founder.
[00:05:15.760 --> 00:05:17.760] And yeah, it's not at all the tool.
[00:05:18.080 --> 00:05:20.800] I don't agree that no-code apps are hacky.
[00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:23.520] I'm sure there are lots of ugly ones out there.
[00:05:23.520 --> 00:05:31.000] But yeah, I think my lack of success with my different SaaS projects is 100% because I'm not very good at marketing.
[00:05:29.840 --> 00:05:36.280] That first video testimonial tool, you know, I probably tweeted about it five times.
[00:05:36.440 --> 00:05:38.440] I maybe had like a hundred followers.
[00:05:38.440 --> 00:05:40.680] I spoke to a couple of friends and said, Do you want to use this?
[00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:43.080] And they kind of said yes, and then they kind of didn't use it.
[00:05:43.080 --> 00:05:45.960] And then I just gave up and I was like, Okay, this isn't going to work.
[00:05:45.960 --> 00:05:48.520] And yeah, at that point, I just discovered Bubble.
[00:05:48.520 --> 00:05:51.080] So I was like, Okay, I've got 10 other ideas I can make.
[00:05:51.080 --> 00:05:53.320] So I just totally dropped it.
[00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:59.640] What about those that have been successful building no-code or apps with no-code?
[00:05:59.640 --> 00:06:04.680] I think we see less of them because no code is still a relatively new technology.
[00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:07.800] Like, but yeah, there's definitely a few that are doing really well.
[00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:15.880] So, like, this one guy, David Bressler, he was on paternity leave and he wanted to try doing a side project and he just discovered Bubble.
[00:06:15.880 --> 00:06:18.920] So, he built this thing called Excel Formula Bot.
[00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:25.720] It took him like six weeks from discovering Bubble to building this thing, and then it went viral on Reddit.
[00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:32.520] And from what I've heard recently, he has like 60,000 monthly active users and like 700,000 users in total.
[00:06:32.520 --> 00:06:34.280] So, like, he's definitely scaling.
[00:06:34.280 --> 00:06:37.160] He went full-time on it after I think six months.
[00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:39.080] And there's, yeah, there's loads of other stories like that.
[00:06:39.080 --> 00:06:41.560] There's like Swapstack, which was recently acquired.
[00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:44.200] It's like a newsletter sponsorship marketplace.
[00:06:44.200 --> 00:06:47.080] They were at 25k MRR when they got acquired.
[00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:49.880] I know it took them maybe a year or two to get there.
[00:06:49.880 --> 00:06:57.400] And then there's ones that are doing like, yeah, way bigger scale, but you just don't hear about them, or they're like, they're a bit shy about revealing their numbers and stuff like that.
[00:06:57.400 --> 00:07:01.240] Yeah, I mean, I feel like they're almost at outlier examples.
[00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:06.360] And even then, they're still not massive compared to what you would expect for something that is scaling.
[00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:16.720] Beyond the point where I feel you can fix things and build new features that customers want without like really pushing the no-code tools to their limit.
[00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:17.920] Do you think that?
[00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:31.280] Like, do you think that maybe no-code tools are best for building MVPs and like getting to a certain scale, and then you might have to rebuild the app in code to make it more robust?
[00:07:31.280 --> 00:07:33.280] No, I don't agree.
[00:07:33.520 --> 00:07:36.000] And I don't really know where you're getting this impression from.
[00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:40.160] Like, okay, so for sure, there are bad no-code apps out there.
[00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:45.360] And I think one of the things about no-code is that anyone or almost anyone can do it.
[00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:46.640] It's like way more accessible.
[00:07:46.640 --> 00:07:59.520] So you get people who have absolutely zero design skills, have never looked at a technical product or looked at how it's developed, and they try and build an app and they find that they can build an app, but they built it badly.
[00:07:59.520 --> 00:08:05.920] And then people, they show it to people, and people are like, okay, yeah, no-code looks terrible, and the app's like really crap.
[00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:12.080] But if you build a no-code app well, if you know what you're doing, then for sure it can scale.
[00:08:12.080 --> 00:08:15.280] I mean, if you think of like Salesforce, right?
[00:08:15.280 --> 00:08:18.160] Salesforce is like the original no-code app.
[00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:23.840] You can build custom apps in Salesforce, and it's used by giant companies all over the world.
[00:08:23.840 --> 00:08:30.000] But if you, like, I've been watching videos recently on how to build apps in Salesforce, and it's not that different from Bubble.
[00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:35.680] You can do a lot of the same things, but you just have this terrible UI that you're like restricted to.
[00:08:35.680 --> 00:08:41.360] Whereas Bubble is the same principle: build whatever app you want, but you just have so much more flexibility.
[00:08:41.680 --> 00:08:43.120] Yeah, I think that's a fair point.
[00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:47.520] And you asked where I get the impression from about it being more hacky and better for an MVP.
[00:08:47.520 --> 00:08:48.560] It can't be scalable.
[00:08:48.560 --> 00:08:52.960] Purely my own personal experience and examples that I've seen of apps built in no-code.
[00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:59.520] I've always felt that whenever I try to build something, I'm always restricted to the confines of whatever tool I'm using.
[00:08:59.640 --> 00:09:05.560] And often, if I try and change one thing, I need to pair it together with something in the back end with Zapier.
[00:09:05.560 --> 00:09:09.480] And it just feels more hacky because I don't know what I'm doing.
[00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:10.920] And maybe that's the thing.
[00:09:10.920 --> 00:09:18.440] Whereas, because I don't know what I'm doing with code, I wouldn't know where to start, but with no code, it looks more attainable because it's more visual.
[00:09:18.520 --> 00:09:28.520] You can see that you drag these things here to connect this and make an app, but actually, I'm not doing the required effort to learn how you can use the tool better.
[00:09:28.520 --> 00:09:40.360] In terms of your own stuff, no-code life and your courses, where did it start for you telling stories of others, building stuff with no-code, and also your courses?
[00:09:40.360 --> 00:09:45.240] So, yeah, I mean, I'm trying to build a flywheel where I get people interested in no-code.
[00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:53.000] And a lot of people have the same kind of concerns or preconceptions that you do that, you know, you're very limited on what you can build.
[00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:54.920] There's not much of an ecosystem around it.
[00:09:54.920 --> 00:10:00.280] And so, I wanted to tell the success stories of people who have successfully changed careers.
[00:10:00.280 --> 00:10:06.520] So, like, I know tons of people who have gone from other jobs to becoming a full-time no-code builder.
[00:10:06.520 --> 00:10:13.800] And then, obviously, when people say, oh, actually, this does sound good, then I'm like, okay, well, I have courses teaching you exactly how to do all this stuff.
[00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:19.320] How's all that going in terms of the core sales and growing all that?
[00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:20.360] It's going okay.
[00:10:21.080 --> 00:10:23.160] Courses take so long to make.
[00:10:23.160 --> 00:10:26.200] And then, yeah, it's all about marketing, right?
[00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:28.200] And as I said, I'm not very good at marketing.
[00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:30.520] I'm slowly getting better at it.
[00:10:30.680 --> 00:10:34.680] I think you're being harsh to yourself as well, Kieran, on not being good at marketing.
[00:10:34.680 --> 00:10:36.760] Because you have grown an audience for yourself.
[00:10:36.760 --> 00:10:38.440] 25,000 Twitter followers.
[00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:40.360] That's not an easy feat.
[00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:43.480] You're in a niche and you're focused on that niche.
[00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:50.080] So everyone that comes to you knows that you're going to be talking about no code and learning from you about that.
[00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:54.720] So what parts of your marketing do you feel you need to improve on?
[00:10:54.720 --> 00:11:05.520] I mean, yeah, I guess I am harsh on myself because, yeah, I'm in, you know, the same Twitter bubble that you probably are where I see the success stories and everyone going crazy and tweets going viral.
[00:11:05.520 --> 00:11:06.880] It's a mindset thing, really.
[00:11:06.880 --> 00:11:10.000] Like, I still put off marketing as much as possible.
[00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:11.840] Like, you really need to focus on it.
[00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:15.840] Like, I find marketing to be like, it's too wishy-washy.
[00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:17.200] You don't see the results straight away.
[00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:22.400] Like, if you build a new feature for your app, you can play with it immediately and you can show it to people straight away.
[00:11:22.400 --> 00:11:26.960] But if you do marketing, you might have to wait a month or two months to see results.
[00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:32.320] And even then, you don't know if it was the stuff you did or if it was just something random that's happened.
[00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:38.240] And yeah, I know there are ways to attribute things and be a lot more methodical about it.
[00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:40.240] But yeah, that's not really me.
[00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:45.200] So I still find it quite of a kind of just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing if anything works.
[00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:45.680] Yeah.
[00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:51.360] You said it's not really you, which I care, but it's kind of necessary, right?
[00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:55.600] So is it not as like essential to learn those things that aren't really you?
[00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:59.360] Or is it a case of outsourcing those to someone else if you can afford it?
[00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:08.080] Yeah, I've thought about outsourcing, but I really, I really want to get good at it because I really think that it is the kind of thing that it's kind of like a game.
[00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:12.400] And if you get into it and figure it out, then I can see it becoming fun.
[00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:19.480] If you can actually say, okay, if I do these things, I know that revenue will come.
[00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:21.760] Then I can imagine that will be fun.
[00:12:21.760 --> 00:12:25.600] And yeah, I have like I have had some success with marketing.
[00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:34.840] So, like, my most successful product to date is a landing page builder called Yep.so, which I launched like coming up to a couple of years ago.
[00:12:35.160 --> 00:12:37.800] And I did get quite serious about marketing that.
[00:12:37.800 --> 00:12:49.880] But then, when it comes to like, I don't know, more highbrow marketing like SEO and stuff like that and paid ads, I'm just so nervous about there's like so much analytics and things you have to do.
[00:12:50.040 --> 00:13:01.080] Where do you go in the future for you, Kieran, in terms of do you put effort into Yep.so or do you put more effort into your courses and no-co-side of the business?
[00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:04.840] So, Yep has actually just been acquired, so I'm not going to be working on it.
[00:13:04.920 --> 00:13:05.480] Has it?
[00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:07.000] Yeah, I haven't announced it.
[00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:15.880] I haven't announced it yet, but yeah, it's just been acquired, which was like a difficult decision, but yeah, I hadn't really touched it for a year, right?
[00:13:15.880 --> 00:13:22.760] And it was making $700 MRR, and I was probably spending two hours a month on it.
[00:13:22.760 --> 00:13:27.720] So, for $700, that was like a good return, and I was just happy to let it tick over.
[00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:34.520] Like, it was got like a kind of inbuilt growth mechanism whereby people are creating their pages and sharing them.
[00:13:34.520 --> 00:13:38.840] And then, when someone looks at their page, they see like the YEP badge and stuff.
[00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:43.000] So, it keeps getting new users without me doing anything at all.
[00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:45.640] So, it was a good, good product from that respect.
[00:13:45.640 --> 00:13:48.040] But, yeah, I've just sold that.
[00:13:48.040 --> 00:13:51.720] So, yeah, I'm going to, I've got a few more SAS things I'm working on.
[00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:56.520] I've got like probably six or seven projects that I'm working on.
[00:13:57.160 --> 00:13:59.000] This scares me, Kieran.
[00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:03.160] Like, first of all, you had a product that was getting users without you doing anything.
[00:14:03.160 --> 00:14:19.760] Imagine if, no, I don't want you to now regret your decision, but imagine if you had put the time into marketing and grown it, if it was getting users without anything, and you say you've got six or seven SaaS ideas on a go, it's gonna be so hard to make any of those work because you've got your no-code stuff as well.
[00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:21.840] Why is it you've got all of this going on?
[00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:32.720] Yeah, it's partly for bad reasons, partly because I just get new ideas or people approach me with projects they want to work on, and I'm like, Yeah, this would be great.
[00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:45.040] But on the other hand, like because I'm making courses and I am building an audience around no-code, like it is in my interest to be constantly learning new skills and trying new things.
[00:14:45.040 --> 00:14:51.040] And so, a lot of what I do is like I'm playing around with OpenAI every time they release a new thing.
[00:14:51.040 --> 00:14:55.920] I'm learning about it, making tutorials about it, and then maybe I end up making a product.
[00:14:55.920 --> 00:15:09.920] So, I've just built this AI interview bot, which I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna try and market it to recruitment agencies and stuff so they can get candidates to like practice their interview skills with like an AI bot that has the job description.
[00:15:09.920 --> 00:15:18.000] And yesterday, I actually told it to pretend it was you doing an Indie Bytes podcast and like with these opinions about no-code.
[00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:23.680] And then we did like a mock interview, like so I could prepare like how do I, so how do I answer sound?
[00:15:23.680 --> 00:15:25.760] And then, like, at the end, it gives you feedback.
[00:15:25.760 --> 00:15:27.840] So, I just love building stuff like this.
[00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:31.280] It's crazy what you can do, especially with AI now.
[00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:36.640] Did uh Yep get the same multiple as a traditional SAS?
[00:15:36.640 --> 00:15:41.040] So, you're on 700 MRR, which is about eight grand a year.
[00:15:41.040 --> 00:15:45.760] Typical SAS multiples two to three times, so around 25, 20, 25k.
[00:15:45.760 --> 00:15:46.640] Is that about right?
[00:15:46.640 --> 00:15:48.160] Yeah, that's exactly right.
[00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:55.680] You listen to the pod, so you know I end on three recommendations: a book, a podcast, and Indie Hacker.
[00:15:55.680 --> 00:15:56.640] What have you got for me?
[00:15:56.640 --> 00:16:00.920] The one book I picked up recently is the SAS Playbook by Rob Walling.
[00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:05.400] In terms of podcasts, I only really honestly listen to your podcasts.
[00:16:05.400 --> 00:16:07.880] And obviously, I love Arvid Carl.
[00:16:07.880 --> 00:16:11.000] And yeah, Indie Hacker, there's someone called Hazel Lim.
[00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:12.120] I don't know if you're aware of her.
[00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:16.200] And I just think she's putting out the best content of anyone at the moment.
[00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:21.080] Like, a lot of the formerly good tweeters are now just too successful.
[00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:27.320] And she is just like scrappy and she's experimenting in public with like AI and no codes.
[00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:27.880] Definitely.
[00:16:27.880 --> 00:16:30.040] Kieran, thank you so much for coming on the pod.
[00:16:30.040 --> 00:16:31.160] Thanks for having me.
[00:16:31.160 --> 00:16:33.080] Thank you for listening to this episode of Indie Buys.
[00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:37.640] Don't forget, you can get access to the full conversation on the Indie Buys membership by hitting the link in the show notes.
[00:16:37.640 --> 00:16:40.920] And I thank you again to my sponsor, Eman Octopus, for making the show happen.
[00:16:40.920 --> 00:16:41.800] That's all from me.
[00:16:41.800 --> 00:16:43.400] See you next week.

Prompt 2: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 3: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 4: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Full Transcript

[00:00:01.520 --> 00:00:03.600] No, I don't agree.
[00:00:03.840 --> 00:00:06.400] And I don't really know where you're getting this impression from.
[00:00:06.400 --> 00:00:10.160] Like, okay, so for sure there are bad no-code apps out there.
[00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:16.480] But if you build a no-code app well, if you know what you're doing, then for sure it can scale.
[00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:21.840] Hello, and welcome back to Indiebytes, the podcast where I bring you stories of fellow indie hackers in 15 minutes or less.
[00:00:21.840 --> 00:00:23.600] I'm your host, James McKimbon.
[00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:30.960] In this episode, I'm joined by Kieran Ball, who is the founder of No Code Life, a selection of case studies of those making successful businesses using Nocode.
[00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:36.480] Kieran also has courses on how to become a Nocode SaaS founder, specifically using the Bubble platform.
[00:00:36.480 --> 00:00:46.880] I wanted to get Kieran on the pod to discuss and challenge him on the No Code movement and if you can actually create a scalable product using the tools available or if Nocode serves a slightly different purpose.
[00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:54.720] Now if you enjoyed my back and forth with Kieran about Nocode, there is an extended version of the chat available on the Indiebytes membership for just $60 a year.
[00:00:54.720 --> 00:00:56.880] Head to indiebytes.com slash membership.
[00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:00.080] And before we get into it, I'd like to thank my sponsor, Email Octopus.
[00:01:00.080 --> 00:01:13.920] Now EmailOctopus are the email platform focused on affordability and ease of use with a very generous free plan and without some of those bloated features so you can focus on shipping and growing your audience which regular listeners know is essential for growth in the early days.
[00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:20.720] So to get started with an email platform that just gets out the way you can contact up to 2,500 subscribers for free.
[00:01:20.720 --> 00:01:23.680] Head to emailoctopus.com and hit the link in the show notes.
[00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:25.680] Let's get into this chat with Kieran.
[00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:27.040] Kieran, welcome to the pod.
[00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:27.760] How you doing?
[00:01:27.760 --> 00:01:28.480] I'm doing good.
[00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:29.360] Thanks for having me.
[00:01:29.360 --> 00:01:31.360] So let's get into who Kieran is.
[00:01:31.360 --> 00:01:34.960] I put here you worked in finance and you're a spreadsheet bro.
[00:01:34.960 --> 00:01:35.920] Is that right?
[00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:43.360] I started out my career in finance using a lot of spreadsheets, very, very corporate, and I didn't like the banking aspect.
[00:01:43.360 --> 00:01:50.480] My favourite thing about it was using spreadsheets, which sounds really nerdy, I know, but I think there's a lot of people out there who like spreadsheets.
[00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:56.640] And the thing I liked about spreadsheets would be sitting down and trying to make a new spreadsheet that did cool stuff and had inputs and outputs.
[00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:58.560] And it was basically like a simple app.
[00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:02.520] And I always dreamed of being able to turn a spreadsheet into an app.
[00:02:02.520 --> 00:02:07.480] So that was kind of like the beginnings of my interest in no-code.
[00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:11.480] You have tried and failed to learn code.
[00:02:11.480 --> 00:02:16.360] I know a lot of people who have tried and failed to code.
[00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:17.880] So what was your story?
[00:02:17.880 --> 00:02:25.080] Yeah, I mean, I spent probably a decade on and off trying to learn to code, doing like Code Academy, doing JavaScript and stuff like that.
[00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:29.880] And the thing that I always found the most difficult, like the actual coding part, I quite liked.
[00:02:29.880 --> 00:02:32.920] Like simple JavaScript in Code Academy was good.
[00:02:32.920 --> 00:02:44.120] But the thing I didn't like was often it just feels like you're trying to get your environment set up on your laptop and you're copying and pasting commands from Stack Overflow into your like terminal.
[00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:47.160] And I was thinking, I don't understand what any of these things are doing.
[00:02:47.160 --> 00:02:50.120] I could paste the wrong thing and totally wipe my entire computer.
[00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:51.960] Like I have no idea.
[00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:54.520] But I found that stuff really, really difficult.
[00:02:54.520 --> 00:03:02.200] I think it's different now because you've got stuff like Replit, which takes care of all those different things, the servers and your environment, and you just do the code.
[00:03:02.200 --> 00:03:05.560] So I think maybe if I learned now, it would be a different story.
[00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:11.320] I've kind of had a similar experience and it sort of leads us nicely into no code.
[00:03:11.320 --> 00:03:25.160] I'm grateful that there are no code tools available that mean not only can I create the media content that I do that is more in my skills there and doesn't require needing how to code, but you can now create SaaS apps and various other things.
[00:03:25.160 --> 00:03:33.160] When did you discover it and get into it and where does it sort of fit into the timeline of you dabbling with code, working in startups?
[00:03:33.480 --> 00:03:45.920] So, in 2015, I co-founded a tech startup with a coder, and I was the non-technical one and we eventually had a team of like 15 developers.
[00:03:45.920 --> 00:03:50.080] And so, I'd spent many years like working alongside these guys.
[00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:53.600] And then I was still like playing around in my spare time with side projects.
[00:03:53.600 --> 00:04:03.920] And then, in 2019, I think I saw a tweet or something on Product Hunt, and I discovered, first I discovered Glide Apps, which their promises turn a spreadsheet into an app.
[00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:07.120] And naturally, I was like, oh my God, this is what I've been looking for.
[00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:09.520] So, I started using that and making little apps.
[00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:11.680] And then I quickly found Bubble.
[00:04:11.920 --> 00:04:17.120] I just logged in and dragged some stuff onto the page and added some buttons and then added a workflow.
[00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:21.520] And I was like, oh my God, this is exactly what I want.
[00:04:21.520 --> 00:04:28.880] Within two months of discovering it, I had built a full SaaS app with payments and like pretty cool functionality.
[00:04:28.880 --> 00:04:31.360] It was like a video testimonials tool.
[00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:36.640] When I messed you, I was asking for some of your thoughts on No Code and what you've done.
[00:04:36.640 --> 00:04:41.520] And you said you've built and launched multiple SaaS products, albeit with minimal success.
[00:04:41.520 --> 00:04:44.720] And I'm guessing a lot of these SaaS products have been using No Code.
[00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.400] And here's where I think the problem is a lot of the time.
[00:04:48.400 --> 00:04:54.240] That it's really hard to launch something and make it successful with No Code because it always feels kind of hacky.
[00:04:54.240 --> 00:05:02.000] Do you think your minimal success with a lot of these SaaS products are due to it being no-code or the position in the product, the market?
[00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:12.800] Because if you follow what Damon's done with Testimonial and now Sender, that would suggest that it's not the market or the idea of the positioning?
[00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:15.760] No, I think it's 100% the founder.
[00:05:15.760 --> 00:05:17.760] And yeah, it's not at all the tool.
[00:05:18.080 --> 00:05:20.800] I don't agree that no-code apps are hacky.
[00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:23.520] I'm sure there are lots of ugly ones out there.
[00:05:23.520 --> 00:05:31.000] But yeah, I think my lack of success with my different SaaS projects is 100% because I'm not very good at marketing.
[00:05:29.840 --> 00:05:36.280] That first video testimonial tool, you know, I probably tweeted about it five times.
[00:05:36.440 --> 00:05:38.440] I maybe had like a hundred followers.
[00:05:38.440 --> 00:05:40.680] I spoke to a couple of friends and said, Do you want to use this?
[00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:43.080] And they kind of said yes, and then they kind of didn't use it.
[00:05:43.080 --> 00:05:45.960] And then I just gave up and I was like, Okay, this isn't going to work.
[00:05:45.960 --> 00:05:48.520] And yeah, at that point, I just discovered Bubble.
[00:05:48.520 --> 00:05:51.080] So I was like, Okay, I've got 10 other ideas I can make.
[00:05:51.080 --> 00:05:53.320] So I just totally dropped it.
[00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:59.640] What about those that have been successful building no-code or apps with no-code?
[00:05:59.640 --> 00:06:04.680] I think we see less of them because no code is still a relatively new technology.
[00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:07.800] Like, but yeah, there's definitely a few that are doing really well.
[00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:15.880] So, like, this one guy, David Bressler, he was on paternity leave and he wanted to try doing a side project and he just discovered Bubble.
[00:06:15.880 --> 00:06:18.920] So, he built this thing called Excel Formula Bot.
[00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:25.720] It took him like six weeks from discovering Bubble to building this thing, and then it went viral on Reddit.
[00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:32.520] And from what I've heard recently, he has like 60,000 monthly active users and like 700,000 users in total.
[00:06:32.520 --> 00:06:34.280] So, like, he's definitely scaling.
[00:06:34.280 --> 00:06:37.160] He went full-time on it after I think six months.
[00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:39.080] And there's, yeah, there's loads of other stories like that.
[00:06:39.080 --> 00:06:41.560] There's like Swapstack, which was recently acquired.
[00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:44.200] It's like a newsletter sponsorship marketplace.
[00:06:44.200 --> 00:06:47.080] They were at 25k MRR when they got acquired.
[00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:49.880] I know it took them maybe a year or two to get there.
[00:06:49.880 --> 00:06:57.400] And then there's ones that are doing like, yeah, way bigger scale, but you just don't hear about them, or they're like, they're a bit shy about revealing their numbers and stuff like that.
[00:06:57.400 --> 00:07:01.240] Yeah, I mean, I feel like they're almost at outlier examples.
[00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:06.360] And even then, they're still not massive compared to what you would expect for something that is scaling.
[00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:16.720] Beyond the point where I feel you can fix things and build new features that customers want without like really pushing the no-code tools to their limit.
[00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:17.920] Do you think that?
[00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:31.280] Like, do you think that maybe no-code tools are best for building MVPs and like getting to a certain scale, and then you might have to rebuild the app in code to make it more robust?
[00:07:31.280 --> 00:07:33.280] No, I don't agree.
[00:07:33.520 --> 00:07:36.000] And I don't really know where you're getting this impression from.
[00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:40.160] Like, okay, so for sure, there are bad no-code apps out there.
[00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:45.360] And I think one of the things about no-code is that anyone or almost anyone can do it.
[00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:46.640] It's like way more accessible.
[00:07:46.640 --> 00:07:59.520] So you get people who have absolutely zero design skills, have never looked at a technical product or looked at how it's developed, and they try and build an app and they find that they can build an app, but they built it badly.
[00:07:59.520 --> 00:08:05.920] And then people, they show it to people, and people are like, okay, yeah, no-code looks terrible, and the app's like really crap.
[00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:12.080] But if you build a no-code app well, if you know what you're doing, then for sure it can scale.
[00:08:12.080 --> 00:08:15.280] I mean, if you think of like Salesforce, right?
[00:08:15.280 --> 00:08:18.160] Salesforce is like the original no-code app.
[00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:23.840] You can build custom apps in Salesforce, and it's used by giant companies all over the world.
[00:08:23.840 --> 00:08:30.000] But if you, like, I've been watching videos recently on how to build apps in Salesforce, and it's not that different from Bubble.
[00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:35.680] You can do a lot of the same things, but you just have this terrible UI that you're like restricted to.
[00:08:35.680 --> 00:08:41.360] Whereas Bubble is the same principle: build whatever app you want, but you just have so much more flexibility.
[00:08:41.680 --> 00:08:43.120] Yeah, I think that's a fair point.
[00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:47.520] And you asked where I get the impression from about it being more hacky and better for an MVP.
[00:08:47.520 --> 00:08:48.560] It can't be scalable.
[00:08:48.560 --> 00:08:52.960] Purely my own personal experience and examples that I've seen of apps built in no-code.
[00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:59.520] I've always felt that whenever I try to build something, I'm always restricted to the confines of whatever tool I'm using.
[00:08:59.640 --> 00:09:05.560] And often, if I try and change one thing, I need to pair it together with something in the back end with Zapier.
[00:09:05.560 --> 00:09:09.480] And it just feels more hacky because I don't know what I'm doing.
[00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:10.920] And maybe that's the thing.
[00:09:10.920 --> 00:09:18.440] Whereas, because I don't know what I'm doing with code, I wouldn't know where to start, but with no code, it looks more attainable because it's more visual.
[00:09:18.520 --> 00:09:28.520] You can see that you drag these things here to connect this and make an app, but actually, I'm not doing the required effort to learn how you can use the tool better.
[00:09:28.520 --> 00:09:40.360] In terms of your own stuff, no-code life and your courses, where did it start for you telling stories of others, building stuff with no-code, and also your courses?
[00:09:40.360 --> 00:09:45.240] So, yeah, I mean, I'm trying to build a flywheel where I get people interested in no-code.
[00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:53.000] And a lot of people have the same kind of concerns or preconceptions that you do that, you know, you're very limited on what you can build.
[00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:54.920] There's not much of an ecosystem around it.
[00:09:54.920 --> 00:10:00.280] And so, I wanted to tell the success stories of people who have successfully changed careers.
[00:10:00.280 --> 00:10:06.520] So, like, I know tons of people who have gone from other jobs to becoming a full-time no-code builder.
[00:10:06.520 --> 00:10:13.800] And then, obviously, when people say, oh, actually, this does sound good, then I'm like, okay, well, I have courses teaching you exactly how to do all this stuff.
[00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:19.320] How's all that going in terms of the core sales and growing all that?
[00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:20.360] It's going okay.
[00:10:21.080 --> 00:10:23.160] Courses take so long to make.
[00:10:23.160 --> 00:10:26.200] And then, yeah, it's all about marketing, right?
[00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:28.200] And as I said, I'm not very good at marketing.
[00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:30.520] I'm slowly getting better at it.
[00:10:30.680 --> 00:10:34.680] I think you're being harsh to yourself as well, Kieran, on not being good at marketing.
[00:10:34.680 --> 00:10:36.760] Because you have grown an audience for yourself.
[00:10:36.760 --> 00:10:38.440] 25,000 Twitter followers.
[00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:40.360] That's not an easy feat.
[00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:43.480] You're in a niche and you're focused on that niche.
[00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:50.080] So everyone that comes to you knows that you're going to be talking about no code and learning from you about that.
[00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:54.720] So what parts of your marketing do you feel you need to improve on?
[00:10:54.720 --> 00:11:05.520] I mean, yeah, I guess I am harsh on myself because, yeah, I'm in, you know, the same Twitter bubble that you probably are where I see the success stories and everyone going crazy and tweets going viral.
[00:11:05.520 --> 00:11:06.880] It's a mindset thing, really.
[00:11:06.880 --> 00:11:10.000] Like, I still put off marketing as much as possible.
[00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:11.840] Like, you really need to focus on it.
[00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:15.840] Like, I find marketing to be like, it's too wishy-washy.
[00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:17.200] You don't see the results straight away.
[00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:22.400] Like, if you build a new feature for your app, you can play with it immediately and you can show it to people straight away.
[00:11:22.400 --> 00:11:26.960] But if you do marketing, you might have to wait a month or two months to see results.
[00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:32.320] And even then, you don't know if it was the stuff you did or if it was just something random that's happened.
[00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:38.240] And yeah, I know there are ways to attribute things and be a lot more methodical about it.
[00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:40.240] But yeah, that's not really me.
[00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:45.200] So I still find it quite of a kind of just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing if anything works.
[00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:45.680] Yeah.
[00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:51.360] You said it's not really you, which I care, but it's kind of necessary, right?
[00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:55.600] So is it not as like essential to learn those things that aren't really you?
[00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:59.360] Or is it a case of outsourcing those to someone else if you can afford it?
[00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:08.080] Yeah, I've thought about outsourcing, but I really, I really want to get good at it because I really think that it is the kind of thing that it's kind of like a game.
[00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:12.400] And if you get into it and figure it out, then I can see it becoming fun.
[00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:19.480] If you can actually say, okay, if I do these things, I know that revenue will come.
[00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:21.760] Then I can imagine that will be fun.
[00:12:21.760 --> 00:12:25.600] And yeah, I have like I have had some success with marketing.
[00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:34.840] So, like, my most successful product to date is a landing page builder called Yep.so, which I launched like coming up to a couple of years ago.
[00:12:35.160 --> 00:12:37.800] And I did get quite serious about marketing that.
[00:12:37.800 --> 00:12:49.880] But then, when it comes to like, I don't know, more highbrow marketing like SEO and stuff like that and paid ads, I'm just so nervous about there's like so much analytics and things you have to do.
[00:12:50.040 --> 00:13:01.080] Where do you go in the future for you, Kieran, in terms of do you put effort into Yep.so or do you put more effort into your courses and no-co-side of the business?
[00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:04.840] So, Yep has actually just been acquired, so I'm not going to be working on it.
[00:13:04.920 --> 00:13:05.480] Has it?
[00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:07.000] Yeah, I haven't announced it.
[00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:15.880] I haven't announced it yet, but yeah, it's just been acquired, which was like a difficult decision, but yeah, I hadn't really touched it for a year, right?
[00:13:15.880 --> 00:13:22.760] And it was making $700 MRR, and I was probably spending two hours a month on it.
[00:13:22.760 --> 00:13:27.720] So, for $700, that was like a good return, and I was just happy to let it tick over.
[00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:34.520] Like, it was got like a kind of inbuilt growth mechanism whereby people are creating their pages and sharing them.
[00:13:34.520 --> 00:13:38.840] And then, when someone looks at their page, they see like the YEP badge and stuff.
[00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:43.000] So, it keeps getting new users without me doing anything at all.
[00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:45.640] So, it was a good, good product from that respect.
[00:13:45.640 --> 00:13:48.040] But, yeah, I've just sold that.
[00:13:48.040 --> 00:13:51.720] So, yeah, I'm going to, I've got a few more SAS things I'm working on.
[00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:56.520] I've got like probably six or seven projects that I'm working on.
[00:13:57.160 --> 00:13:59.000] This scares me, Kieran.
[00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:03.160] Like, first of all, you had a product that was getting users without you doing anything.
[00:14:03.160 --> 00:14:19.760] Imagine if, no, I don't want you to now regret your decision, but imagine if you had put the time into marketing and grown it, if it was getting users without anything, and you say you've got six or seven SaaS ideas on a go, it's gonna be so hard to make any of those work because you've got your no-code stuff as well.
[00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:21.840] Why is it you've got all of this going on?
[00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:32.720] Yeah, it's partly for bad reasons, partly because I just get new ideas or people approach me with projects they want to work on, and I'm like, Yeah, this would be great.
[00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:45.040] But on the other hand, like because I'm making courses and I am building an audience around no-code, like it is in my interest to be constantly learning new skills and trying new things.
[00:14:45.040 --> 00:14:51.040] And so, a lot of what I do is like I'm playing around with OpenAI every time they release a new thing.
[00:14:51.040 --> 00:14:55.920] I'm learning about it, making tutorials about it, and then maybe I end up making a product.
[00:14:55.920 --> 00:15:09.920] So, I've just built this AI interview bot, which I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna try and market it to recruitment agencies and stuff so they can get candidates to like practice their interview skills with like an AI bot that has the job description.
[00:15:09.920 --> 00:15:18.000] And yesterday, I actually told it to pretend it was you doing an Indie Bytes podcast and like with these opinions about no-code.
[00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:23.680] And then we did like a mock interview, like so I could prepare like how do I, so how do I answer sound?
[00:15:23.680 --> 00:15:25.760] And then, like, at the end, it gives you feedback.
[00:15:25.760 --> 00:15:27.840] So, I just love building stuff like this.
[00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:31.280] It's crazy what you can do, especially with AI now.
[00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:36.640] Did uh Yep get the same multiple as a traditional SAS?
[00:15:36.640 --> 00:15:41.040] So, you're on 700 MRR, which is about eight grand a year.
[00:15:41.040 --> 00:15:45.760] Typical SAS multiples two to three times, so around 25, 20, 25k.
[00:15:45.760 --> 00:15:46.640] Is that about right?
[00:15:46.640 --> 00:15:48.160] Yeah, that's exactly right.
[00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:55.680] You listen to the pod, so you know I end on three recommendations: a book, a podcast, and Indie Hacker.
[00:15:55.680 --> 00:15:56.640] What have you got for me?
[00:15:56.640 --> 00:16:00.920] The one book I picked up recently is the SAS Playbook by Rob Walling.
[00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:05.400] In terms of podcasts, I only really honestly listen to your podcasts.
[00:16:05.400 --> 00:16:07.880] And obviously, I love Arvid Carl.
[00:16:07.880 --> 00:16:11.000] And yeah, Indie Hacker, there's someone called Hazel Lim.
[00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:12.120] I don't know if you're aware of her.
[00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:16.200] And I just think she's putting out the best content of anyone at the moment.
[00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:21.080] Like, a lot of the formerly good tweeters are now just too successful.
[00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:27.320] And she is just like scrappy and she's experimenting in public with like AI and no codes.
[00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:27.880] Definitely.
[00:16:27.880 --> 00:16:30.040] Kieran, thank you so much for coming on the pod.
[00:16:30.040 --> 00:16:31.160] Thanks for having me.
[00:16:31.160 --> 00:16:33.080] Thank you for listening to this episode of Indie Buys.
[00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:37.640] Don't forget, you can get access to the full conversation on the Indie Buys membership by hitting the link in the show notes.
[00:16:37.640 --> 00:16:40.920] And I thank you again to my sponsor, Eman Octopus, for making the show happen.
[00:16:40.920 --> 00:16:41.800] That's all from me.
[00:16:41.800 --> 00:16:43.400] See you next week.