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[00:00:01.360 --> 00:00:05.040] But, James, I'm always a day away from just deleting the whole thing.
[00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.080] Like, don't sleep on that too.
[00:00:08.080 --> 00:00:09.360] If you're done, you're done.
[00:00:09.360 --> 00:00:11.680] Get out and don't let it stress you.
[00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:18.720] Hello, and welcome back to Indiebytes, a podcast where I bring you stories of indie entrepreneurs in 15-minute episodes.
[00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:26.800] Today, we're joined by Matt Medeiros, who is the founder of WP Minute, a weekly podcast and newsletter highlighting WordPress news in less than five minutes.
[00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:35.280] He's a podcasting expert, having previously worked as director of podcasts and success at Castos, and now hosts and produce Breakdown, a podcast by Gravity Forms.
[00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:45.760] This episode talks about how you can make a sustainable five-figure side project with a niche audience while working a full-time job and increasing your opportunities as you do it.
[00:00:45.760 --> 00:00:54.800] Now, if you're inspired by this episode and want to go out and make your own newsletter or content-based side project in a niche of your choice, I have just a tool for you.
[00:00:54.800 --> 00:00:59.360] That is, of course, Email Octopus, who are an email platform focused on affordability.
[00:00:59.360 --> 00:01:04.880] They have a very generous free plan and ace of use without all of these bloated features that I certainly hate.
[00:01:04.880 --> 00:01:10.400] So, you can focus on shipping and growing your audience, which regular listeners know is essential for your growth.
[00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:17.200] So, to get started with an email platform that just gets out of the way, you can contact up to 2,500 people for free.
[00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:20.560] Head to emailoctopus.com or hit the link in the show notes.
[00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:24.880] Or if you upgrade to their free plan, you've got 30% off using the coupon IndieBytes.
[00:01:24.880 --> 00:01:27.360] Let's get into this episode with Matt Mederos.
[00:01:27.360 --> 00:01:28.240] Matt, how are you doing?
[00:01:28.240 --> 00:01:29.280] Welcome to the pod.
[00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:30.720] Man, James, that was fan.
[00:01:30.800 --> 00:01:33.120] You can turn on the energy, my friend.
[00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:43.760] So, I want to get into your background a little bit because I don't think I've ever spoken to a guest who started out their career working with their dad in car dealerships.
[00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:45.680] Explain some of that to me.
[00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:53.280] So, my grandfather started as a door-to-door tire salesman back in the day.
[00:01:53.280 --> 00:02:00.120] So, they, way back in the day, you had to go sell tires, and he would go to all of the garages and sell that.
[00:01:59.600 --> 00:02:06.520] That turned into him starting a used car dealership, then starting one of the first Mazda dealerships in the country.
[00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:11.080] And I was working in the business ever since I can remember.
[00:02:11.960 --> 00:02:14.520] I mean, I started cleaning up the yard, right?
[00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:22.760] And then, when the dawn of the internet came, consumer internet, they all looked at me and said, you know, computers, like, you know, this thing.
[00:02:22.760 --> 00:02:25.480] You become our internet salesperson.
[00:02:25.480 --> 00:02:30.200] And then we got out of that, started a digital agency around 2008.
[00:02:30.200 --> 00:02:31.400] How did all this come about?
[00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:37.560] So, when he sold the business and was supposed to retire, he became a professional photographer.
[00:02:37.560 --> 00:02:42.840] Like, he was, he was, has always been doing photography all his life and started doing some commercial work.
[00:02:42.840 --> 00:02:47.800] And one of the first things he did when he got out was started earning a little bit of side hustle himself.
[00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:50.920] And he was taking photos of a jewelry store.
[00:02:50.920 --> 00:02:52.600] They were like, Hey, we're brand new.
[00:02:52.600 --> 00:02:54.280] We want a website too.
[00:02:54.280 --> 00:02:58.920] And he turned to me and he was like, You know how to put websites together.
[00:02:58.920 --> 00:02:59.800] They're looking for one.
[00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:01.560] Do you want to do this on the side?
[00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:02.280] And I did.
[00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:04.040] And then he got referred to another commercial business.
[00:03:04.040 --> 00:03:06.120] I forget what it was, like a clothing company or something.
[00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:08.440] They too needed a web presence.
[00:03:08.440 --> 00:03:10.040] And I did it again.
[00:03:10.040 --> 00:03:14.360] And then it just started to parlay into, hey, maybe we run a digital agency.
[00:03:14.360 --> 00:03:15.720] That's what we do.
[00:03:15.720 --> 00:03:17.480] And that's how that started.
[00:03:17.480 --> 00:03:21.160] And we hired a team of people, and he still runs that agency today.
[00:03:21.160 --> 00:03:22.040] I got out of it.
[00:03:22.040 --> 00:03:23.880] I was there for about a decade.
[00:03:23.880 --> 00:03:30.840] But any agency owner knows that you're always one paycheck away from bankruptcy or one client paycheck away from bankruptcy.
[00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:35.480] And when I started having kids, I was like, I need something a little bit less stressful in my life.
[00:03:35.480 --> 00:03:39.640] Is this where your WordPress expertise started to develop?
[00:03:39.640 --> 00:03:46.640] Yeah, so I worked at the time before we started the agency, I worked at an ISP, an internet service provider.
[00:03:44.920 --> 00:03:52.080] And we acquired another ISP, and they had a web development part of the business.
[00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:54.480] And they were what's known as Drupal.
[00:03:54.480 --> 00:03:56.560] It's another content management system.
[00:03:56.560 --> 00:03:58.000] And they were full in on Drupal.
[00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:02.000] And the designer, when we took them over, was like, Matt, and I was going to run that division.
[00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:04.560] He was like, Matt, I can't design on Drupal.
[00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:06.640] We got to move to this thing called WordPress.
[00:04:06.640 --> 00:04:11.760] I looked at it, I started to explore it, and we pivoted to that in that business.
[00:04:11.760 --> 00:04:14.560] So I knew how to build with WordPress back then.
[00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:20.960] And then when I started the agency, we just went full in on WordPress, open source, went to all the community events.
[00:04:20.960 --> 00:04:27.120] And I quickly realized, like, I'm not a developer, so I need a way to break into this community.
[00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:33.600] And that's how I started the Matt Report podcast back then because I was listening to Andrew Warner from Mixergy.
[00:04:33.760 --> 00:04:34.720] And I was like, you know what?
[00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:42.560] Maybe I'll be like Andrew Warner of WordPress and just start talking to people and see if that can help drive business.
[00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:45.120] And it did tremendously in the beginning.
[00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:54.400] You know, once I exited out of the agency, I started another job at a hosting company called Pagely, where I became an account executive.
[00:04:54.400 --> 00:04:56.160] They ended up selling to GoDaddy.
[00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:58.960] I moved to Castos into the audio space.
[00:04:58.960 --> 00:05:09.440] But the point is, the Matt Report helped not only help drive a lot of the business for the studio, but it was a massive resume builder.
[00:05:09.440 --> 00:05:19.440] And it helped me get all of my jobs since I left the agency: Pagely, Castos, and now at Gravity Forms, because I kept doing it.
[00:05:19.440 --> 00:05:24.560] And it just kept my name and presence out in the WordPress space.
[00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:29.360] So when I needed to find a job, people already, like the folks that were hiring me, already knew me.
[00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:41.480] And it was, I don't want to say it was easy, but it was a huge leg up, which is another sort of unsung hero in podcasting is that luck surface area that people create.
[00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:55.080] Like you might not be getting sponsors, you might not have all of the listeners that you want to get, but just by continuously publishing and putting out content, people know that you're still there doing this thing.
[00:05:55.080 --> 00:05:57.400] And they have a huge respect for it.
[00:05:57.400 --> 00:06:03.560] So talk to me about how Matt Report then turned into WP Minute.
[00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:11.880] It was one of those things where I was getting, you know, really just, you know, run down doing the same old thing over and over again.
[00:06:11.880 --> 00:06:19.160] But also at the same time, WordPress was going through another jump in attraction and in business, right?
[00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:27.080] So then I said to myself, you know, maybe I want to do something else in the audio world and maybe not so much in the WordPress world anymore.
[00:06:27.080 --> 00:06:29.720] And then I put the Matt Report up for sale.
[00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:33.720] I thought to myself, well, look, this is what every business wants, right?
[00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:35.480] They want a media site.
[00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:36.920] Like they want to have a blog.
[00:06:36.920 --> 00:06:37.960] They want to have a podcast.
[00:06:37.960 --> 00:06:39.320] They want to have a YouTube channel.
[00:06:39.320 --> 00:06:42.200] They need to do content marketing to get themselves out.
[00:06:42.200 --> 00:06:48.760] And why not fast track them of a decade's worth of content and say, here you go.
[00:06:48.760 --> 00:06:50.600] What was the problem, James?
[00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:54.120] My name is in the podcast, right?
[00:06:55.080 --> 00:07:11.160] And then I said to myself, well, time to literally throw that away and start the WP Minute, something that was still WordPress-based, but it could also literally extract my name and could be used for anything else in the future.
[00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:14.120] So, was all of this just a future-proof it?
[00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:19.280] Because you couldn't sell Matt Report and you couldn't sell WP Minute if you're just starting it.
[00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:24.480] But did it like push a new release of life into you for creating something a bit different, a bit new?
[00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:25.440] It did.
[00:07:25.440 --> 00:07:35.920] You know, how I came about the WP Minute concept: it's five minutes weekly news and newsletter, influenced by pod news by James Cridland.
[00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:38.800] And I said, boy, that's a fantastic model.
[00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:41.440] Let me do the same for the WP Minute.
[00:07:41.440 --> 00:07:48.640] Because at this point in life in WordPress, there's like 20 different WordPress podcasts.
[00:07:48.640 --> 00:07:56.160] And a lot of us are talking to the same people with the same format with a slightly different twist, but nobody was doing short form.
[00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:59.920] And the problem with WordPress news is it is important.
[00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:02.160] Power is 46% of the modern web.
[00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:06.800] A lot of people use WordPress, but a lot of people don't care what's happening to WordPress.
[00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:08.720] So I was trying to bridge that gap.
[00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:14.560] And so, how did you start to monetize this beyond what you've done with MatReport?
[00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:20.480] And was this something that you thought, right, if I'm going to switch this, I'm going to turn the revenue streams on?
[00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:20.800] Yeah.
[00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:25.600] I sat down and said, look, it definitely has to be monetized right out of the gate.
[00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:34.320] And I want to build this up so that it is sustainable, so that I could step out, not be the lead content creator and bring in other people.
[00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:36.160] So I went a few different routes.
[00:08:36.160 --> 00:08:47.680] So there's the five-minute audio product, and then there's the WP Minute Plus, which is the typical 45-minute interview that I was always doing at the Matt Report, just rebranded to WP Minute Plus.
[00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:53.920] Then there's a YouTube channel where I do WordPress tutorials, 15,000-ish subscribers.
[00:08:53.920 --> 00:08:56.000] Of course, newsletter, of course, blog, right?
[00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:58.560] So omni-channel content.
[00:08:58.560 --> 00:09:13.240] I'm going to take that five minutes, broadcast it out, take the 45 minutes, broadcast it out, email, newsletter, blog, YouTube, and then go to the sponsors that I had in the past and say, I have this professional product now, and it's omni-channel.
[00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:16.440] And you can appear in the newsletter, the YouTube, which, like, here it is.
[00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:19.240] Lay it out, a la carte, pick where you want to go.
[00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:20.600] And that was for sponsors.
[00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:30.360] And then I created a membership where if you're a listener and you just love the work that we're doing, you can either donate through a digital coffee or join the membership for $79 a year.
[00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:33.160] And that gets you access to Slack and behind the scenes.
[00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:36.840] It's a great networking point for other WordPress businesses.
[00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:41.560] So how are you sort of charging or approaching sponsorships for WP Minute?
[00:09:41.560 --> 00:09:44.920] Because like you say 15,000 subscribers on YouTube.
[00:09:44.920 --> 00:09:46.840] It's not like, it's not huge.
[00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:49.400] So I would say that the audience is probably larger.
[00:09:49.400 --> 00:09:51.960] Well, in terms of like all of WordPress, right?
[00:09:51.960 --> 00:10:00.440] When you look at all of WordPress, a lot of the folks that have sponsorship money for podcasts are web hosts, other software companies, and that's a massive market.
[00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:06.440] And they're all trying to go for anyone that will trust them to host their website with them.
[00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:14.120] How I went about that was knocking on the door and saying, hey, you remember me from the Matt Report.
[00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:15.800] I've got this product now.
[00:10:15.800 --> 00:10:17.240] It's a lot more professional.
[00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:29.080] And we're delivering WordPress news, which is very important in the smaller, and this is where the smaller audience comes in, that 1% of WordPressers.
[00:10:29.080 --> 00:10:33.240] These are the people who are agency owners, product makers in the WordPress space.
[00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:35.560] Some of them have been on your show.
[00:10:35.560 --> 00:10:38.120] And this is where the business gets done.
[00:10:38.120 --> 00:10:50.240] I like to call it that my audience is the Fortune 5,000 of WordPress, because literally of English-speaking people that care about the business of WordPress, which by the way is billions of dollars.
[00:10:50.560 --> 00:10:54.880] I call them the Fortune 5000 because there's only that many English-speaking people that would tune in.
[00:10:54.880 --> 00:10:58.720] And I have a majority of that audience with the stuff that I do.
[00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:03.280] Now, all of this is happening, Matt, alongside you having a job.
[00:11:03.280 --> 00:11:04.560] You say you're not a hobbyist.
[00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:07.920] You say you're taking this professional approach.
[00:11:07.920 --> 00:11:09.040] But how can you do that?
[00:11:09.040 --> 00:11:14.080] How can you make all of this content when you've also got a full-time job alongside it?
[00:11:14.400 --> 00:11:20.960] So for the blog writing side of the WP Minute, the bi-monthly column that goes out is written by Eric Karkovak.
[00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:26.320] So I have revenue coming in where I'm paying him to write the articles.
[00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:30.160] And the five-minute product is, well, it's five minutes.
[00:11:30.160 --> 00:11:37.120] So that was the intent that it wasn't going to take me that long to, you know, put that out every single week.
[00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:39.200] So it's just once a week, five minutes.
[00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:45.760] And when I do the interview show, I have somebody who edits the show and produces that for me and sets it all up.
[00:11:45.760 --> 00:11:47.680] So how do I do that with Gravity Forms?
[00:11:47.680 --> 00:11:51.360] I'm very lucky that Gravity Forms allows me to do that.
[00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:55.920] But there's also a benefit to them because I'm constantly in the WordPress space.
[00:11:55.920 --> 00:12:02.160] So they get a little bit of benefit when I'm out there learning, talking, networking my stuff.
[00:12:02.160 --> 00:12:07.120] And I always talk about being the lead podcaster at Gravity Forms every time I'm out there, right?
[00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:08.480] So there's a shared benefit.
[00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:11.520] Matt, what does the future look like for WP Minute for you?
[00:12:11.520 --> 00:12:13.600] Do you plan on keeping it a side project?
[00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:17.440] It was originally started because you couldn't find a way to sell Matt Report.
[00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:19.360] Is that on the horizon potentially for you?
[00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:20.400] 100%.
[00:12:20.400 --> 00:12:22.240] Everything's for sale.
[00:12:23.520 --> 00:12:25.680] James, everything I have is for sale.
[00:12:25.680 --> 00:12:26.640] You said something before.
[00:12:26.640 --> 00:12:35.080] I'm going to forget what it is, but I've come to start to call myself over the last couple of years an artist, which is like laughable.
[00:12:35.160 --> 00:12:38.120] People are like probably throwing their phone right now listening to this.
[00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:43.400] But in the sense of, I want to create this thing, and then I want it to end.
[00:12:43.400 --> 00:12:46.120] Like, I don't want to be doing this at infinity.
[00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:49.000] I want to move on to a new chapter.
[00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:51.800] And I want to start creating art in another thing.
[00:12:51.800 --> 00:12:54.600] It could even be back into WordPress just differently.
[00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:57.400] I don't keep my videos.
[00:12:57.720 --> 00:13:01.240] I don't have stacks of hard drives with all my stuff backed up.
[00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:02.760] James, I create stuff.
[00:13:02.760 --> 00:13:03.880] I upload it.
[00:13:03.880 --> 00:13:04.920] I delete it.
[00:13:04.920 --> 00:13:08.120] So you're just happy with it being a side project for now?
[00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:13.960] You like the fact you've got a job and you've got the benefits that come along with having a job and a regular salary.
[00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:18.360] This nice symbiotic relationship between the two, the one benefits the other.
[00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:21.160] Yeah, I'm happy with it being on the side right now.
[00:13:21.160 --> 00:13:30.280] You know, it's well into the five figures in terms of annual revenue, which is great as a side hustle, right?
[00:13:30.280 --> 00:13:34.840] It's not, you know, I can't bring Eric on full-time to write for me.
[00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:40.760] I can't bring on a full-time producer to just take all of my audio and video content and say, hey, go nuts with it.
[00:13:40.760 --> 00:13:42.440] I'd love to have somebody on social.
[00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:54.280] And, you know, that is the goal: to be able to step back, just hit record, and then hand it off to a team of writers and editors to put all the stuff together.
[00:13:54.280 --> 00:14:04.680] And, you know, maybe at that point, once it gets to that scale, maybe it'll look a little bit more attractive to a brand in the space to say, yeah, we would like to, you know, acquire this kind of thing.
[00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:06.040] You hear that, folks?
[00:14:06.040 --> 00:14:11.800] You can start projects and keep them as side projects and have a good time doing it.
[00:14:11.800 --> 00:14:22.000] I think so often I see it with people really wanting their side projects to work and then they leave their jobs to try and make it work because they think it needs more time.
[00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:25.520] They do it and they end up hating what they have left their job for.
[00:14:25.520 --> 00:14:35.920] Where you can have a good job, a little bit of extra work on the side, and you can have something that is fun that could potentially build up to an asset that you sell while you still get everything else paid for.
[00:14:35.920 --> 00:14:39.600] But, James, I'm always a day away from just deleting the whole thing.
[00:14:39.920 --> 00:14:42.560] Like, don't sleep on that too.
[00:14:42.560 --> 00:14:43.840] If you're done, you're done.
[00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:46.480] Get out and don't let it stress you.
[00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:56.080] Well, Matt, I end every episode on three recommendations: a book, a podcast, or an indie hacker founder.
[00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:57.120] What have you got for me?
[00:14:57.120 --> 00:14:58.400] I'm not a book guy, James.
[00:14:58.400 --> 00:15:00.080] I don't know if you've had this answer before.
[00:15:00.880 --> 00:15:02.080] I'm a podcast guy.
[00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:03.840] So, I'll have two podcast recommendations.
[00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:08.720] First podcast to take the place of books is a guy who interviews a lot of authors.
[00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:12.240] Mitch Joel, Six Pixels of Separation.
[00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:25.040] He interviews tons of authors, and that's one of the shows where I always tune into for that jolt of intelligence and think to myself, man, I wish I had time to read these books.
[00:15:25.040 --> 00:15:32.400] For my podcast recommendation, anybody in the audio space, give a listen to Podcasting 2.0.
[00:15:32.400 --> 00:15:35.120] Those are the folks that are similar to WordPress.
[00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:42.160] It's an open source movement for the RSS feed, really pushing what RSS can do for creators.
[00:15:42.160 --> 00:15:46.960] And I'm going to take the easy way out on this indie hacker founder question.
[00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:51.040] I'm going to have to give it to our CEO at Gravity Forms.
[00:15:51.040 --> 00:15:51.680] If J.R.
[00:15:51.680 --> 00:15:53.360] Farr is listening to this, he's going to laugh.
[00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:59.120] But Carl Hancock, he and his two co-founders started Gravity Forms 15 years ago.
[00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:01.480] But it's still running.
[00:15:59.760 --> 00:16:04.440] And he still has that indie hacker mindset.
[00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:05.400] He's a great founder.
[00:16:05.640 --> 00:16:07.560] And obviously, he lets me do what I do.
[00:16:07.560 --> 00:16:13.080] So I appreciate the work and really respect what he's built with the team and the product at Gravity Forms.
[00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:14.440] Matt, great recommendations.
[00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:16.840] Thank you so much for coming on this episode of Indie Buyes.
[00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:17.960] Thanks, James.
[00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:20.120] Thank you for listening to this episode of Indie Buys.
[00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:23.240] A big thank you to my sponsor, Emer Octopus, for making the show happen.
[00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:24.200] That's all from me.
[00:16:24.200 --> 00:16:25.880] See you next week.

Prompt 2: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 3: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 4: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Full Transcript

[00:00:01.360 --> 00:00:05.040] But, James, I'm always a day away from just deleting the whole thing.
[00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.080] Like, don't sleep on that too.
[00:00:08.080 --> 00:00:09.360] If you're done, you're done.
[00:00:09.360 --> 00:00:11.680] Get out and don't let it stress you.
[00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:18.720] Hello, and welcome back to Indiebytes, a podcast where I bring you stories of indie entrepreneurs in 15-minute episodes.
[00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:26.800] Today, we're joined by Matt Medeiros, who is the founder of WP Minute, a weekly podcast and newsletter highlighting WordPress news in less than five minutes.
[00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:35.280] He's a podcasting expert, having previously worked as director of podcasts and success at Castos, and now hosts and produce Breakdown, a podcast by Gravity Forms.
[00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:45.760] This episode talks about how you can make a sustainable five-figure side project with a niche audience while working a full-time job and increasing your opportunities as you do it.
[00:00:45.760 --> 00:00:54.800] Now, if you're inspired by this episode and want to go out and make your own newsletter or content-based side project in a niche of your choice, I have just a tool for you.
[00:00:54.800 --> 00:00:59.360] That is, of course, Email Octopus, who are an email platform focused on affordability.
[00:00:59.360 --> 00:01:04.880] They have a very generous free plan and ace of use without all of these bloated features that I certainly hate.
[00:01:04.880 --> 00:01:10.400] So, you can focus on shipping and growing your audience, which regular listeners know is essential for your growth.
[00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:17.200] So, to get started with an email platform that just gets out of the way, you can contact up to 2,500 people for free.
[00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:20.560] Head to emailoctopus.com or hit the link in the show notes.
[00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:24.880] Or if you upgrade to their free plan, you've got 30% off using the coupon IndieBytes.
[00:01:24.880 --> 00:01:27.360] Let's get into this episode with Matt Mederos.
[00:01:27.360 --> 00:01:28.240] Matt, how are you doing?
[00:01:28.240 --> 00:01:29.280] Welcome to the pod.
[00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:30.720] Man, James, that was fan.
[00:01:30.800 --> 00:01:33.120] You can turn on the energy, my friend.
[00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:43.760] So, I want to get into your background a little bit because I don't think I've ever spoken to a guest who started out their career working with their dad in car dealerships.
[00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:45.680] Explain some of that to me.
[00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:53.280] So, my grandfather started as a door-to-door tire salesman back in the day.
[00:01:53.280 --> 00:02:00.120] So, they, way back in the day, you had to go sell tires, and he would go to all of the garages and sell that.
[00:01:59.600 --> 00:02:06.520] That turned into him starting a used car dealership, then starting one of the first Mazda dealerships in the country.
[00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:11.080] And I was working in the business ever since I can remember.
[00:02:11.960 --> 00:02:14.520] I mean, I started cleaning up the yard, right?
[00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:22.760] And then, when the dawn of the internet came, consumer internet, they all looked at me and said, you know, computers, like, you know, this thing.
[00:02:22.760 --> 00:02:25.480] You become our internet salesperson.
[00:02:25.480 --> 00:02:30.200] And then we got out of that, started a digital agency around 2008.
[00:02:30.200 --> 00:02:31.400] How did all this come about?
[00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:37.560] So, when he sold the business and was supposed to retire, he became a professional photographer.
[00:02:37.560 --> 00:02:42.840] Like, he was, he was, has always been doing photography all his life and started doing some commercial work.
[00:02:42.840 --> 00:02:47.800] And one of the first things he did when he got out was started earning a little bit of side hustle himself.
[00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:50.920] And he was taking photos of a jewelry store.
[00:02:50.920 --> 00:02:52.600] They were like, Hey, we're brand new.
[00:02:52.600 --> 00:02:54.280] We want a website too.
[00:02:54.280 --> 00:02:58.920] And he turned to me and he was like, You know how to put websites together.
[00:02:58.920 --> 00:02:59.800] They're looking for one.
[00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:01.560] Do you want to do this on the side?
[00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:02.280] And I did.
[00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:04.040] And then he got referred to another commercial business.
[00:03:04.040 --> 00:03:06.120] I forget what it was, like a clothing company or something.
[00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:08.440] They too needed a web presence.
[00:03:08.440 --> 00:03:10.040] And I did it again.
[00:03:10.040 --> 00:03:14.360] And then it just started to parlay into, hey, maybe we run a digital agency.
[00:03:14.360 --> 00:03:15.720] That's what we do.
[00:03:15.720 --> 00:03:17.480] And that's how that started.
[00:03:17.480 --> 00:03:21.160] And we hired a team of people, and he still runs that agency today.
[00:03:21.160 --> 00:03:22.040] I got out of it.
[00:03:22.040 --> 00:03:23.880] I was there for about a decade.
[00:03:23.880 --> 00:03:30.840] But any agency owner knows that you're always one paycheck away from bankruptcy or one client paycheck away from bankruptcy.
[00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:35.480] And when I started having kids, I was like, I need something a little bit less stressful in my life.
[00:03:35.480 --> 00:03:39.640] Is this where your WordPress expertise started to develop?
[00:03:39.640 --> 00:03:46.640] Yeah, so I worked at the time before we started the agency, I worked at an ISP, an internet service provider.
[00:03:44.920 --> 00:03:52.080] And we acquired another ISP, and they had a web development part of the business.
[00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:54.480] And they were what's known as Drupal.
[00:03:54.480 --> 00:03:56.560] It's another content management system.
[00:03:56.560 --> 00:03:58.000] And they were full in on Drupal.
[00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:02.000] And the designer, when we took them over, was like, Matt, and I was going to run that division.
[00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:04.560] He was like, Matt, I can't design on Drupal.
[00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:06.640] We got to move to this thing called WordPress.
[00:04:06.640 --> 00:04:11.760] I looked at it, I started to explore it, and we pivoted to that in that business.
[00:04:11.760 --> 00:04:14.560] So I knew how to build with WordPress back then.
[00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:20.960] And then when I started the agency, we just went full in on WordPress, open source, went to all the community events.
[00:04:20.960 --> 00:04:27.120] And I quickly realized, like, I'm not a developer, so I need a way to break into this community.
[00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:33.600] And that's how I started the Matt Report podcast back then because I was listening to Andrew Warner from Mixergy.
[00:04:33.760 --> 00:04:34.720] And I was like, you know what?
[00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:42.560] Maybe I'll be like Andrew Warner of WordPress and just start talking to people and see if that can help drive business.
[00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:45.120] And it did tremendously in the beginning.
[00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:54.400] You know, once I exited out of the agency, I started another job at a hosting company called Pagely, where I became an account executive.
[00:04:54.400 --> 00:04:56.160] They ended up selling to GoDaddy.
[00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:58.960] I moved to Castos into the audio space.
[00:04:58.960 --> 00:05:09.440] But the point is, the Matt Report helped not only help drive a lot of the business for the studio, but it was a massive resume builder.
[00:05:09.440 --> 00:05:19.440] And it helped me get all of my jobs since I left the agency: Pagely, Castos, and now at Gravity Forms, because I kept doing it.
[00:05:19.440 --> 00:05:24.560] And it just kept my name and presence out in the WordPress space.
[00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:29.360] So when I needed to find a job, people already, like the folks that were hiring me, already knew me.
[00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:41.480] And it was, I don't want to say it was easy, but it was a huge leg up, which is another sort of unsung hero in podcasting is that luck surface area that people create.
[00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:55.080] Like you might not be getting sponsors, you might not have all of the listeners that you want to get, but just by continuously publishing and putting out content, people know that you're still there doing this thing.
[00:05:55.080 --> 00:05:57.400] And they have a huge respect for it.
[00:05:57.400 --> 00:06:03.560] So talk to me about how Matt Report then turned into WP Minute.
[00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:11.880] It was one of those things where I was getting, you know, really just, you know, run down doing the same old thing over and over again.
[00:06:11.880 --> 00:06:19.160] But also at the same time, WordPress was going through another jump in attraction and in business, right?
[00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:27.080] So then I said to myself, you know, maybe I want to do something else in the audio world and maybe not so much in the WordPress world anymore.
[00:06:27.080 --> 00:06:29.720] And then I put the Matt Report up for sale.
[00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:33.720] I thought to myself, well, look, this is what every business wants, right?
[00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:35.480] They want a media site.
[00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:36.920] Like they want to have a blog.
[00:06:36.920 --> 00:06:37.960] They want to have a podcast.
[00:06:37.960 --> 00:06:39.320] They want to have a YouTube channel.
[00:06:39.320 --> 00:06:42.200] They need to do content marketing to get themselves out.
[00:06:42.200 --> 00:06:48.760] And why not fast track them of a decade's worth of content and say, here you go.
[00:06:48.760 --> 00:06:50.600] What was the problem, James?
[00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:54.120] My name is in the podcast, right?
[00:06:55.080 --> 00:07:11.160] And then I said to myself, well, time to literally throw that away and start the WP Minute, something that was still WordPress-based, but it could also literally extract my name and could be used for anything else in the future.
[00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:14.120] So, was all of this just a future-proof it?
[00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:19.280] Because you couldn't sell Matt Report and you couldn't sell WP Minute if you're just starting it.
[00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:24.480] But did it like push a new release of life into you for creating something a bit different, a bit new?
[00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:25.440] It did.
[00:07:25.440 --> 00:07:35.920] You know, how I came about the WP Minute concept: it's five minutes weekly news and newsletter, influenced by pod news by James Cridland.
[00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:38.800] And I said, boy, that's a fantastic model.
[00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:41.440] Let me do the same for the WP Minute.
[00:07:41.440 --> 00:07:48.640] Because at this point in life in WordPress, there's like 20 different WordPress podcasts.
[00:07:48.640 --> 00:07:56.160] And a lot of us are talking to the same people with the same format with a slightly different twist, but nobody was doing short form.
[00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:59.920] And the problem with WordPress news is it is important.
[00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:02.160] Power is 46% of the modern web.
[00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:06.800] A lot of people use WordPress, but a lot of people don't care what's happening to WordPress.
[00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:08.720] So I was trying to bridge that gap.
[00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:14.560] And so, how did you start to monetize this beyond what you've done with MatReport?
[00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:20.480] And was this something that you thought, right, if I'm going to switch this, I'm going to turn the revenue streams on?
[00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:20.800] Yeah.
[00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:25.600] I sat down and said, look, it definitely has to be monetized right out of the gate.
[00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:34.320] And I want to build this up so that it is sustainable, so that I could step out, not be the lead content creator and bring in other people.
[00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:36.160] So I went a few different routes.
[00:08:36.160 --> 00:08:47.680] So there's the five-minute audio product, and then there's the WP Minute Plus, which is the typical 45-minute interview that I was always doing at the Matt Report, just rebranded to WP Minute Plus.
[00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:53.920] Then there's a YouTube channel where I do WordPress tutorials, 15,000-ish subscribers.
[00:08:53.920 --> 00:08:56.000] Of course, newsletter, of course, blog, right?
[00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:58.560] So omni-channel content.
[00:08:58.560 --> 00:09:13.240] I'm going to take that five minutes, broadcast it out, take the 45 minutes, broadcast it out, email, newsletter, blog, YouTube, and then go to the sponsors that I had in the past and say, I have this professional product now, and it's omni-channel.
[00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:16.440] And you can appear in the newsletter, the YouTube, which, like, here it is.
[00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:19.240] Lay it out, a la carte, pick where you want to go.
[00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:20.600] And that was for sponsors.
[00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:30.360] And then I created a membership where if you're a listener and you just love the work that we're doing, you can either donate through a digital coffee or join the membership for $79 a year.
[00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:33.160] And that gets you access to Slack and behind the scenes.
[00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:36.840] It's a great networking point for other WordPress businesses.
[00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:41.560] So how are you sort of charging or approaching sponsorships for WP Minute?
[00:09:41.560 --> 00:09:44.920] Because like you say 15,000 subscribers on YouTube.
[00:09:44.920 --> 00:09:46.840] It's not like, it's not huge.
[00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:49.400] So I would say that the audience is probably larger.
[00:09:49.400 --> 00:09:51.960] Well, in terms of like all of WordPress, right?
[00:09:51.960 --> 00:10:00.440] When you look at all of WordPress, a lot of the folks that have sponsorship money for podcasts are web hosts, other software companies, and that's a massive market.
[00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:06.440] And they're all trying to go for anyone that will trust them to host their website with them.
[00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:14.120] How I went about that was knocking on the door and saying, hey, you remember me from the Matt Report.
[00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:15.800] I've got this product now.
[00:10:15.800 --> 00:10:17.240] It's a lot more professional.
[00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:29.080] And we're delivering WordPress news, which is very important in the smaller, and this is where the smaller audience comes in, that 1% of WordPressers.
[00:10:29.080 --> 00:10:33.240] These are the people who are agency owners, product makers in the WordPress space.
[00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:35.560] Some of them have been on your show.
[00:10:35.560 --> 00:10:38.120] And this is where the business gets done.
[00:10:38.120 --> 00:10:50.240] I like to call it that my audience is the Fortune 5,000 of WordPress, because literally of English-speaking people that care about the business of WordPress, which by the way is billions of dollars.
[00:10:50.560 --> 00:10:54.880] I call them the Fortune 5000 because there's only that many English-speaking people that would tune in.
[00:10:54.880 --> 00:10:58.720] And I have a majority of that audience with the stuff that I do.
[00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:03.280] Now, all of this is happening, Matt, alongside you having a job.
[00:11:03.280 --> 00:11:04.560] You say you're not a hobbyist.
[00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:07.920] You say you're taking this professional approach.
[00:11:07.920 --> 00:11:09.040] But how can you do that?
[00:11:09.040 --> 00:11:14.080] How can you make all of this content when you've also got a full-time job alongside it?
[00:11:14.400 --> 00:11:20.960] So for the blog writing side of the WP Minute, the bi-monthly column that goes out is written by Eric Karkovak.
[00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:26.320] So I have revenue coming in where I'm paying him to write the articles.
[00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:30.160] And the five-minute product is, well, it's five minutes.
[00:11:30.160 --> 00:11:37.120] So that was the intent that it wasn't going to take me that long to, you know, put that out every single week.
[00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:39.200] So it's just once a week, five minutes.
[00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:45.760] And when I do the interview show, I have somebody who edits the show and produces that for me and sets it all up.
[00:11:45.760 --> 00:11:47.680] So how do I do that with Gravity Forms?
[00:11:47.680 --> 00:11:51.360] I'm very lucky that Gravity Forms allows me to do that.
[00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:55.920] But there's also a benefit to them because I'm constantly in the WordPress space.
[00:11:55.920 --> 00:12:02.160] So they get a little bit of benefit when I'm out there learning, talking, networking my stuff.
[00:12:02.160 --> 00:12:07.120] And I always talk about being the lead podcaster at Gravity Forms every time I'm out there, right?
[00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:08.480] So there's a shared benefit.
[00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:11.520] Matt, what does the future look like for WP Minute for you?
[00:12:11.520 --> 00:12:13.600] Do you plan on keeping it a side project?
[00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:17.440] It was originally started because you couldn't find a way to sell Matt Report.
[00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:19.360] Is that on the horizon potentially for you?
[00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:20.400] 100%.
[00:12:20.400 --> 00:12:22.240] Everything's for sale.
[00:12:23.520 --> 00:12:25.680] James, everything I have is for sale.
[00:12:25.680 --> 00:12:26.640] You said something before.
[00:12:26.640 --> 00:12:35.080] I'm going to forget what it is, but I've come to start to call myself over the last couple of years an artist, which is like laughable.
[00:12:35.160 --> 00:12:38.120] People are like probably throwing their phone right now listening to this.
[00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:43.400] But in the sense of, I want to create this thing, and then I want it to end.
[00:12:43.400 --> 00:12:46.120] Like, I don't want to be doing this at infinity.
[00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:49.000] I want to move on to a new chapter.
[00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:51.800] And I want to start creating art in another thing.
[00:12:51.800 --> 00:12:54.600] It could even be back into WordPress just differently.
[00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:57.400] I don't keep my videos.
[00:12:57.720 --> 00:13:01.240] I don't have stacks of hard drives with all my stuff backed up.
[00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:02.760] James, I create stuff.
[00:13:02.760 --> 00:13:03.880] I upload it.
[00:13:03.880 --> 00:13:04.920] I delete it.
[00:13:04.920 --> 00:13:08.120] So you're just happy with it being a side project for now?
[00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:13.960] You like the fact you've got a job and you've got the benefits that come along with having a job and a regular salary.
[00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:18.360] This nice symbiotic relationship between the two, the one benefits the other.
[00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:21.160] Yeah, I'm happy with it being on the side right now.
[00:13:21.160 --> 00:13:30.280] You know, it's well into the five figures in terms of annual revenue, which is great as a side hustle, right?
[00:13:30.280 --> 00:13:34.840] It's not, you know, I can't bring Eric on full-time to write for me.
[00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:40.760] I can't bring on a full-time producer to just take all of my audio and video content and say, hey, go nuts with it.
[00:13:40.760 --> 00:13:42.440] I'd love to have somebody on social.
[00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:54.280] And, you know, that is the goal: to be able to step back, just hit record, and then hand it off to a team of writers and editors to put all the stuff together.
[00:13:54.280 --> 00:14:04.680] And, you know, maybe at that point, once it gets to that scale, maybe it'll look a little bit more attractive to a brand in the space to say, yeah, we would like to, you know, acquire this kind of thing.
[00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:06.040] You hear that, folks?
[00:14:06.040 --> 00:14:11.800] You can start projects and keep them as side projects and have a good time doing it.
[00:14:11.800 --> 00:14:22.000] I think so often I see it with people really wanting their side projects to work and then they leave their jobs to try and make it work because they think it needs more time.
[00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:25.520] They do it and they end up hating what they have left their job for.
[00:14:25.520 --> 00:14:35.920] Where you can have a good job, a little bit of extra work on the side, and you can have something that is fun that could potentially build up to an asset that you sell while you still get everything else paid for.
[00:14:35.920 --> 00:14:39.600] But, James, I'm always a day away from just deleting the whole thing.
[00:14:39.920 --> 00:14:42.560] Like, don't sleep on that too.
[00:14:42.560 --> 00:14:43.840] If you're done, you're done.
[00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:46.480] Get out and don't let it stress you.
[00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:56.080] Well, Matt, I end every episode on three recommendations: a book, a podcast, or an indie hacker founder.
[00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:57.120] What have you got for me?
[00:14:57.120 --> 00:14:58.400] I'm not a book guy, James.
[00:14:58.400 --> 00:15:00.080] I don't know if you've had this answer before.
[00:15:00.880 --> 00:15:02.080] I'm a podcast guy.
[00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:03.840] So, I'll have two podcast recommendations.
[00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:08.720] First podcast to take the place of books is a guy who interviews a lot of authors.
[00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:12.240] Mitch Joel, Six Pixels of Separation.
[00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:25.040] He interviews tons of authors, and that's one of the shows where I always tune into for that jolt of intelligence and think to myself, man, I wish I had time to read these books.
[00:15:25.040 --> 00:15:32.400] For my podcast recommendation, anybody in the audio space, give a listen to Podcasting 2.0.
[00:15:32.400 --> 00:15:35.120] Those are the folks that are similar to WordPress.
[00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:42.160] It's an open source movement for the RSS feed, really pushing what RSS can do for creators.
[00:15:42.160 --> 00:15:46.960] And I'm going to take the easy way out on this indie hacker founder question.
[00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:51.040] I'm going to have to give it to our CEO at Gravity Forms.
[00:15:51.040 --> 00:15:51.680] If J.R.
[00:15:51.680 --> 00:15:53.360] Farr is listening to this, he's going to laugh.
[00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:59.120] But Carl Hancock, he and his two co-founders started Gravity Forms 15 years ago.
[00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:01.480] But it's still running.
[00:15:59.760 --> 00:16:04.440] And he still has that indie hacker mindset.
[00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:05.400] He's a great founder.
[00:16:05.640 --> 00:16:07.560] And obviously, he lets me do what I do.
[00:16:07.560 --> 00:16:13.080] So I appreciate the work and really respect what he's built with the team and the product at Gravity Forms.
[00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:14.440] Matt, great recommendations.
[00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:16.840] Thank you so much for coming on this episode of Indie Buyes.
[00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:17.960] Thanks, James.
[00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:20.120] Thank you for listening to this episode of Indie Buys.
[00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:23.240] A big thank you to my sponsor, Emer Octopus, for making the show happen.
[00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:24.200] That's all from me.
[00:16:24.200 --> 00:16:25.880] See you next week.