Building a $700k ARR newsletter - Manu Cinca, Stacked Marketer

April 10, 2024

Key Takeaways

Bootstrapping offers predictability in business survival but can hinder development speed, while external funding provides capital for faster growth and development at the cost of less predictable business outcomes.
For early-stage newsletter growth, prioritizing organic acquisition through community engagement and personal outreach over paid advertising yields more valuable feedback and a more engaged initial subscriber base.
Market conditions, particularly shifts in ad budgets and funding availability, can significantly impact revenue goals, necessitating adaptability and strategic investment in growth channels when opportunities arise.

Segments

Newsletter Ideation and Growth (00:03:15)

Key Takeaway: Observing successful newsletters like Morning Brew and identifying a gap in the market for marketing-focused content inspired the creation of Stacked Marketer, emphasizing curation with a marketer’s perspective.
Summary: Manu explains his transition from poker to creating his own product, Stacked Marketer. He was inspired by Morning Brew and sought to create a similar newsletter focused on marketing. He details the initial process of building the newsletter, getting feedback from friends, and then sharing it publicly to gain initial subscribers.

Acquiring First Subscribers Organically (00:05:08)

Key Takeaway: For new newsletters, securing the first thousand subscribers organically through personal networks and community engagement is crucial for gathering valuable feedback and tailoring the product, rather than relying on paid acquisition which may yield less engaged users.
Summary: Manu provides advice on acquiring the first thousand subscribers, advocating for organic methods like reaching out to friends and participating in relevant online communities (Facebook groups, Slack, forums, subreddits). He advises against paid social or generic paid recommendations initially, as these users are less likely to provide constructive feedback.

Business Goals and Monetization Strategy (00:07:37)

Key Takeaway: Stacked Marketer was intentionally built as a business from the outset, with a clear three-step validation process: proving content fit through readership, testing monetization via ad revenue by confirming company willingness to pay, and assessing subscriber reception to ads.
Summary: Manu clarifies that Stacked Marketer was always intended to be a business. He outlines the initial goals: proving content appeal (e.g., a thousand opens), testing monetization by seeing if companies would pay for ads (comparing to conference sponsorship costs), and gauging subscriber reaction to ads to avoid high unsubscribe rates.

Growth Inflection Points and Strategy (00:09:44)

Key Takeaway: Strategic newsletter swaps with larger publications and leveraging a referral program were key growth drivers, while a significant opportunity arose in 2020 with reduced ad budgets allowing for cost-effective placements in major newsletters.
Summary: Manu discusses key growth inflection points, including newsletter swaps with larger publications and the introduction of a referral program. He highlights the 2020 period as particularly beneficial due to reduced ad budgets, which allowed for cheap placements in prominent newsletters like Morning Brew and The Hustle, leading to a good cost per lead.

Raising Funding for Development (00:13:38)

Key Takeaway: Raising a funding round, despite a bootstrapped success, was a strategic decision to accelerate development and invest in technology and content expansion, providing a predictable lump sum for growth rather than relying solely on profits which could slow down progress.
Summary: Manu explains the decision to raise a $250,000 funding round. He states that while bootstrapping is viable, it’s less predictable for development speed. The funding provides a lump sum to invest in technology and content, accelerating their long-term vision and development compared to waiting to accumulate profits.

The Goods

If you buy through our links, we may earn a commission.

📚 The Social Animal (00:15:26) - Recommended as a book to read, particularly for marketers, due to its insights into social psychology.

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[00:00:01.440 --> 00:00:09.120] You know, we could do it bootstrapped and take it step by step slowly, but at the same time, it's less predictable in when we can do it.
[00:00:09.120 --> 00:00:16.400] Because once you rely only on your own profits, then if there's a swing in, you know, in your profits, it doesn't, you know, ruin your business or anything.
[00:00:16.400 --> 00:00:19.920] It's not a danger to your business, but it's a danger to your development.
[00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:25.840] Hello, and welcome back to Indiebytes, the podcast where I bring you stories of fellow indie hackers in 15 minutes or less.
[00:00:25.840 --> 00:00:31.840] In this episode, I'm joined by Manu Chinga, who's the founder of Stacked Marketer, a daily marketing email newsletter.
[00:00:31.840 --> 00:00:34.960] He bootstrapped to 700k in revenue.
[00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:45.120] In 2023, he acquired two newsletters to bring the subscriber count to over 100k and even raised a small 250,000 funding round to help boost growth.
[00:00:45.120 --> 00:00:51.040] Now, if you're inspired by this episode and want to start a newsletter of your own, I have the perfect option for you.
[00:00:51.040 --> 00:00:54.320] That is, of course, Indiebyte sponsor, Email Octopus.
[00:00:54.320 --> 00:01:01.280] Email Octopus are an email platform focused on affordability and ease of use without all the bloated features that some email apps have.
[00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:08.560] So you can focus on shipping and growing your audience, which you'll know is essential for growth in the early days, which Manu talks about in this episode.
[00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:14.720] So to get started with an email platform that gets out of the way, you can contact up to 2,500 people for free.
[00:01:14.720 --> 00:01:17.760] Head to emailoctopus.com or hit the link in the show notes.
[00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:19.120] Let's get into this episode.
[00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:20.320] Manu, welcome to the pod.
[00:01:20.320 --> 00:01:20.960] How are you doing?
[00:01:20.960 --> 00:01:22.080] Hey, thanks for having me.
[00:01:22.080 --> 00:01:23.440] Doing well, doing well.
[00:01:23.440 --> 00:01:30.640] Actually, you are not the first, not the second, but the third guest I've had on who has a background in playing poker.
[00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:36.240] Tell me how you got into poker and like how you think this has helped your journey into business.
[00:01:36.240 --> 00:01:38.880] Well, the getting into poker was an interesting thing.
[00:01:38.880 --> 00:01:44.160] In our breaks in high school, we used to just want to do some stuff and we played cards.
[00:01:44.160 --> 00:01:45.840] Then at one point, we played poker.
[00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:49.120] Then at one point, someone was like, yeah, this is boring without any betting.
[00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:51.440] So I bet one layo remain in currency.
[00:01:51.440 --> 00:01:52.880] So then I was like, oh, interesting.
[00:01:52.880 --> 00:01:54.320] Now this is a way that he can make money.
[00:01:54.320 --> 00:01:57.120] So I googled, I think, poker strategy specifically.
[00:01:57.120 --> 00:01:58.640] And that's kind of how it all started.
[00:01:58.640 --> 00:03:32.000] It was kind of a poker boom time and even a little bit after the main poker boom there was a period where it's kind of an affiliate deal where if you signed up under a certain affiliate link the commission that you would generate for the poker boom would be attributed to that affiliate and then those affiliates had the right to then incentivize you to sign up under them the best way they would do that was by teaching poker and then giving you fifty dollars to start so basically this concept of if you teach someone poker well enough and you give them money they would continue playing and you keep you make money off of them because if they're a winner winning player they always get commission from you because they continue playing so were you like a poker coach as well or was that like the kind of business you're running so i was a poker player and a poker coach after i got pretty good at it for like low to mid stakes oh okay so tell me how you transitioned from doing this into doing stacked marketing where did the idea come from for you uh i really wanted to do something that's an own product so as an affiliate you learn quite a few things about how to promote other people's products you can see that you can get you know some pretty good results but i was thinking how can i create the full how can i own the whole product how can i make a product that people really like a lot while still using those affiliate skills and around the same time i ran into morning brew which was doing they were very focused on finance back then now they're kind of more mainstream they have a lot of other newsletters they're more specialized but back then you would be able to call them a finance newsletter and i'm interested in finance and investing as well so it was like oh this is very interesting is there anything like this for marketing?
[00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:35.200] So just try to build that in a way that i would like it.
[00:03:35.200 --> 00:03:37.040] So in a way that i would find it useful.
[00:03:37.040 --> 00:03:46.400] Then talk to friends, ask for feedback, you know, 10 friends personally, talk to them, hey, sign up here, give me feedback every day for the next week, stuff like that.
[00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:49.360] And it kind of evolved really quickly at the beginning.
[00:03:49.360 --> 00:04:03.520] Then once I put it publicly in a few groups and chats that I knew with other marketers on my social media and stuff, we got a few hundred subscribers and then we kind of could get the ball rolling out on getting feedback from users that have no idea who I am.
[00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:07.280] So what was actually the content going into the newsletter when you started?
[00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:11.840] Because you're inspired by Morning Brew and you can do that for marketing.
[00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:15.440] Were you sort of curating articles of certain marketing?
[00:04:15.440 --> 00:04:19.440] Were you taking sort of the Harry Dry approach of doing tips and marketing?
[00:04:19.440 --> 00:04:21.760] Where was your sweet spot for the newsletter content?
[00:04:21.760 --> 00:04:28.800] It was very much curating the news and kind of putting the a lot of the news that you would have for marketing, it would be kind of mainstream.
[00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:34.000] Or let's say there's news related to Facebook's earnings or whatever, Facebook earnings, Google earnings, stuff like that.
[00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:36.960] And you're like, okay, but that's for investors.
[00:04:36.960 --> 00:04:40.800] But there's still some tidbits of information that's relevant for marketers, right?
[00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:50.000] Like, oh, CPMs are higher, CPMs are lower, there's more impressions, there's more users, there's less users, there's more users, like there's no more users, user growth in the US, right?
[00:04:50.240 --> 00:05:01.360] We just try to curate the news, but add the what's in it for me as a marketer rather than just leave it as, you know, this is what the mainstream news says and do whatever you want with it.
[00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:08.720] And it might be hard to look back on what you specifically did six years ago when you started StatMart in terms of growth.
[00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:16.240] But maybe with advice you might be giving to other people about starting a newsletter now, how do you get those first thousand subscribers?
[00:05:16.400 --> 00:05:23.080] If someone's listening, like, right, I want to start a newsletter, I've got an idea, I want to do the stat marketer for indie businesses.
[00:05:23.080 --> 00:05:26.240] Where should they go about getting those first thousand subscribers?
[00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:40.600] I think it's still best to do it the way we did it to some extent, which is first start talking to your closest friends from the industry or like people who would be an ideal customer who would also be willing to talk to you right away.
[00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:43.320] And then if they appreciate it, ask them to also spread the board.
[00:05:43.320 --> 00:05:46.280] That's kind of how you can get a few hundred subscribers to begin with.
[00:05:46.280 --> 00:05:50.120] In, you know, there's a lot of groups there for marketers.
[00:05:50.280 --> 00:05:51.320] You have that for investing.
[00:05:51.320 --> 00:05:53.080] You have that for any topic in the world.
[00:05:53.080 --> 00:05:57.240] There will be like some Facebook groups, some Slack communities, some forums.
[00:05:57.240 --> 00:05:59.640] There will be some like subreddits, whatever.
[00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:07.480] There will be communities for almost any topic where you can, you know, if you build the newsletter for yourself as well, you're obviously part of that community.
[00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:09.000] So then you can connect there.
[00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:13.960] So I think that's it's important to get your first few hundred to a thousand subscribers kind of organically.
[00:06:13.960 --> 00:06:20.280] So I'm not saying you should not, you know, spread your word and do, let's say, marketing in that sense, but I would avoid like paid social.
[00:06:20.280 --> 00:06:32.200] I would avoid recommendations that are paid because those, although it can be good to scale, those are never going to be as frequently giving you feedback and tailoring this product.
[00:06:32.200 --> 00:06:39.640] So what will happen would usually be if you pay for those kind of first 1,000 subscribers, they sign up, they don't like it, they're gone.
[00:06:39.640 --> 00:06:47.320] But if you have the first 1,000 through friends, communities, and stuff like that, they will be like, hey, I understand what you're trying to build here.
[00:06:47.320 --> 00:06:48.520] Here's how you can make it better.
[00:06:48.520 --> 00:06:50.920] There's way more people who will say that to you.
[00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:59.240] So yeah, what I did, first 10 manually reaching out to people, let's say first hundred and a few were posting on my social media.
[00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:01.720] They posted on their social media, stuff like that.
[00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:13.720] And then up to a thousand, reaching out to a few more people who had communities, like friends of a friend who had a blog, who had a news newsletter, who had a community, and asked them, Can we pay you to promote us or so?
[00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:19.520] So that's the only paid part, but it was still a very tight-knit community or tight-knit group where we were promoted in.
[00:07:19.840 --> 00:07:33.680] Yeah, well, Manu, this is very much similar advice that you would give to people who are growing software products that they should speak to their users and potential users in order to validate it rather than just paying to get users, which might necessarily be the right fit for it.
[00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:37.760] Then you can change your position and your content to make it the best possible product.
[00:07:37.760 --> 00:07:43.280] Now, were you going out and starting this to make money, or was this going to be a side hustle, a bit of fun for you?
[00:07:43.280 --> 00:07:44.080] Or was this right?
[00:07:44.080 --> 00:07:47.440] I'm setting out for this to be a business for me.
[00:07:47.760 --> 00:07:49.920] Definitely was setting out to make it a business.
[00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:53.760] It was more like, okay, what are the steps to prove that this is a business?
[00:07:53.760 --> 00:07:56.800] First, make sure that people are okay with reading it.
[00:07:56.800 --> 00:08:02.480] So, first, prove the content that prove the content is a good fit for our target audience.
[00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:11.440] And my thinking there was like if a thousand people open it in a day, that's pretty clear sign that you know people are interested in what we have to say.
[00:08:11.440 --> 00:08:18.160] Then, we wanted to have the next two steps: monetization, which was supposed to be ad revenue, which had two parts to it.
[00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:20.720] First, we wanted to see if companies were willing to pay.
[00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:35.520] So, I thought, again, a thousand eyeballs should garner some interest because if you see how much people pay to attend some conferences, some companies pay, you know, $30,000 to sponsor 1,000 attendee conferences, and kind of that's it, what they get.
[00:08:35.520 --> 00:08:39.760] They should be able to pay a few hundred to see their ad in a newsletter.
[00:08:39.760 --> 00:08:47.360] And then, third one, which was kind of the key, putting things together: will our readership now be okay with seeing ads?
[00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:49.120] Will they be thrilled about ads?
[00:08:49.280 --> 00:08:51.520] What's their reaction to the ads in the newsletter?
[00:08:51.520 --> 00:08:58.320] Because if you know, not everyone, but if you just have a skyrocketing unsubscribe rate after you put in your first ad, that's a bad sign.
[00:08:58.320 --> 00:08:59.800] But it was all okay for us.
[00:08:59.800 --> 00:09:05.240] So we kind of from that point on, once we had the ads rolling, you know, took a bit of learning.
[00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:12.680] It wasn't instant like skyrocketing or anything, but we had the proof of okay, this is a good fit for the audience.
[00:09:12.680 --> 00:09:13.720] It can be monetized.
[00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:15.240] There are companies who want to pay for it.
[00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:16.120] So it's a business.
[00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:23.000] And we wanted to do that within, you know, three or so months because this was still part of my testing period of like, I want to have an own product.
[00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:25.240] If this doesn't work, I'll go to the next idea.
[00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:31.320] And it's hard to condense sort of five years of growth into a short answer, Manu.
[00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:34.520] But are there any inflection points that you can look back on?
[00:09:34.520 --> 00:09:44.760] Or was it just grinding through for the last couple of years, chipping away at the same thing you've been doing, making a really good product that has contributed to your growth?
[00:09:44.760 --> 00:09:50.280] It's been mostly chipping away, but there were a few key points that were really helpful, I would say.
[00:09:50.280 --> 00:09:58.120] So back then, one big boost was when we started doing more newsletter swaps with newsletters that were a little bit bigger than us.
[00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:01.960] Introducing a referral program had a very nice positive effect as well.
[00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:04.520] I think, again, that might have changed now.
[00:10:04.520 --> 00:10:08.760] So I think that might be something to not just jump on so quickly.
[00:10:08.760 --> 00:10:11.720] You have to really think about what you're offering in terms of rewards.
[00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:16.600] It's not the same as it was five years ago, but back then that was a good one.
[00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:25.080] And then jumping up to 2020, a lot of ad budgets were cut, not knowing how the economic situation will be in the world and stuff.
[00:10:25.080 --> 00:10:33.800] A lot of newsletters had a lot of free spots available, and we could get some really cheap placements in Morning Grew, The Hustle, 1440.
[00:10:33.800 --> 00:10:38.840] So, some of the newsletters now that are kind of the most known and some of the biggest out there.
[00:10:38.840 --> 00:10:43.480] And the cost per lead there for an engage subscriber was extremely good.
[00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:46.320] So, that's in a way lucky, but in a way, really good.
[00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:55.760] And that's one of the things that I said now recently, and that it's one of the things that I would double down on if I would be able to go back in time and, like, what are some mistakes or things that I want to learn from.
[00:10:55.760 --> 00:11:00.400] It's like, okay, buy another set of ads in all of those newsletters back then at those prices.
[00:11:00.400 --> 00:11:01.680] Yeah, well, there you go.
[00:11:01.680 --> 00:11:02.720] Looking back on it.
[00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:08.480] How involved are you in writing the newsletter now and the content for Stat Marketer?
[00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:10.080] Because I know you've sort of grown a team.
[00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:12.560] I'm assuming that's a team of writers and marketers.
[00:11:12.560 --> 00:11:13.680] How involved are you?
[00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:16.240] In writing the daily newsletter, not much at all.
[00:11:16.400 --> 00:11:21.280] I do contribute on some ideas in terms of like what type of content, strategic stuff.
[00:11:21.280 --> 00:11:27.360] I do help out with an opinion or review when it comes to content that we write and we create.
[00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:32.240] So, on the news side of curating the news and how we approach the news, it's near zero.
[00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:36.960] Like, I still look at it, but I don't have real-time input as much.
[00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:40.000] The things that I still write are things like the annual report.
[00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:44.400] I might write some stuff when, you know, some psychology of marketing edition.
[00:11:44.400 --> 00:11:56.240] If I have a good idea, I might write some essentially like they're bits and pieces where maybe I have a good idea, I would write it and share it with everyone else to be like, hey, you know, we can publish this in the next month or whenever it fits.
[00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:58.080] And you mentioned your open report.
[00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:05.120] This is something that is really worth a read if anyone's interested in the ins and outs of a newsletter like yours, Manu.
[00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:09.120] It's quite common in the bootstrappers, seeing this build-in-public movement.
[00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:11.440] It's less common in newsletters.
[00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:17.040] In the most recent report you wrote, you said you didn't quite hit the numbers you were looking for.
[00:12:17.040 --> 00:12:22.000] You were aiming for a million this year, or last year you only hit 750,000.
[00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:27.360] I put my question here: Do you think that has a problem with your goal setting or your execution on hitting that goal?
[00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:29.280] I think it might be neither in a way.
[00:12:29.280 --> 00:12:31.640] So, it might be option secret option number three.
[00:12:29.680 --> 00:12:35.880] Of course, like you can always improve what you how you execute things.
[00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:45.320] So, not to say that we did everything perfect, but I think the biggest impact of why we didn't achieve that goal was actually just market conditions in terms of ad budgets.
[00:12:45.320 --> 00:12:55.720] So, anyone who did some ad sales, especially when it comes to SaaS products, they will kind of see like, yeah, we don't have ad budget for this, we don't have advertising budget for this, that that's been cut a lot.
[00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:58.120] And that's normal because funding has been cut a lot.
[00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:03.000] So, essentially, you had a lot of you know, grow at all costs, make sure you at least break even.
[00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:07.640] Or if you don't break even, you have the stats that go up because then you'll have your next funding round.
[00:13:07.640 --> 00:13:08.760] But that's changed now.
[00:13:08.760 --> 00:13:11.000] You cannot just get your next funding round so easily.
[00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:19.880] So, a lot of people cut budgets, they're kind of focused on growing slower, more sustainable, or like profitability has to be quicker rather than growth at all costs.
[00:13:19.880 --> 00:13:23.160] So, I think that had the biggest impact overall.
[00:13:23.160 --> 00:13:27.880] You mentioned sort of the VC approach to growing a business.
[00:13:27.880 --> 00:13:30.440] You've bootstrapped Stack Marketer from the start.
[00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:38.920] You even got to the point where you had acquired some newsletters, but you've since then gone on and raised a small round.
[00:13:38.920 --> 00:13:40.040] Manny, why do this?
[00:13:40.040 --> 00:13:43.000] It feels like you've built a really good, solid business here.
[00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:45.560] You're doing some experiments, some work, some don't.
[00:13:45.560 --> 00:13:47.400] But why raise this small amount?
[00:13:47.400 --> 00:13:50.920] I think you said it a 3 million Euro valuation.
[00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:54.760] Well, it was back in summer 2023.
[00:13:54.760 --> 00:14:04.200] We had an in-person meeting with all the team, and the meetings that we had, and the discussions that we had were around: okay, how do we see Stack Marketer develop over the next, let's say, five years or more?
[00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:05.560] What's the long-term plan here?
[00:14:05.560 --> 00:14:06.840] What's the long-term vision, right?
[00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:26.240] We've acquired back then only one newsletter, and what became very obvious very quickly is that the type of product or the type of platform that we want to offer for marketers, including content education and everything around it, you know, we could do it bootstrapped and take it step by step slowly, but at the same time, it's less predictable in when we can do it.
[00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:37.200] Because once you rely only on your own profits, then if there's a swing in you know in your profits, like hey, this year is not as good as it you thought it might be, it doesn't you know ruin your business or anything.
[00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:40.480] It's not a danger to your business, but it's a danger to your development.
[00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:55.840] So, especially when it comes to developing technology, when it comes to developing content or investing in growth, we felt that it's better to have a lump sum that's not part of, let's say, the daily operations and our that's not used for the daily operations and invest that into this development.
[00:14:55.840 --> 00:15:05.520] The alternative would have been don't raise, wait another year or two and try to put that money aside as profit, you know, and then use that.
[00:15:05.520 --> 00:15:12.800] So, you have like a two to three year head start if you raise now and just use that money, man.
[00:15:12.800 --> 00:15:13.760] You've been a great guest.
[00:15:13.760 --> 00:15:24.080] I end every episode on three recommendations, but I put an extra one in here for you: a book, a podcast, indie hacker/slash entrepreneur, and then a newsletter at the end.
[00:15:24.400 --> 00:15:26.880] Book, book, book, book, book, book.
[00:15:26.880 --> 00:15:29.280] I think The Social Animal, I would recommend it.
[00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:31.200] Really good book on social psychology.
[00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:33.840] And I think for marketers, it's great.
[00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:41.920] Podcast recently, newsletter operator, indie hacker entrepreneur, someone you're inspired by, even maybe Andrew Wilkinson.
[00:15:41.920 --> 00:15:43.040] I think pretty interesting.
[00:15:43.040 --> 00:15:44.240] Oh, yeah, yeah.
[00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:46.480] And then, final one: newsletter.
[00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:49.680] What should people subscribe to apart from Stack Marketer, obviously?
[00:15:49.680 --> 00:15:51.200] Ah, smart nonsense.
[00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:52.000] There we go.
[00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:55.200] Manny, mate, thank you so much for coming on this episode of Indiebites.
[00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:56.480] It was great being with you here.
[00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:57.680] Thanks for having me.
[00:15:57.680 --> 00:16:00.280] Thank you for listening to this episode of Indiebites.
[00:15:59.920 --> 00:16:07.000] A reminder: if you are inspired by this episode and want to make an email newsletter of your own, Email Octopus is the place to go.
[00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:08.600] But that's all from me.
[00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:10.200] See you next week.

Prompt 2: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 3: Segments


Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 4: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Full Transcript

[00:00:01.440 --> 00:00:09.120] You know, we could do it bootstrapped and take it step by step slowly, but at the same time, it's less predictable in when we can do it.
[00:00:09.120 --> 00:00:16.400] Because once you rely only on your own profits, then if there's a swing in, you know, in your profits, it doesn't, you know, ruin your business or anything.
[00:00:16.400 --> 00:00:19.920] It's not a danger to your business, but it's a danger to your development.
[00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:25.840] Hello, and welcome back to Indiebytes, the podcast where I bring you stories of fellow indie hackers in 15 minutes or less.
[00:00:25.840 --> 00:00:31.840] In this episode, I'm joined by Manu Chinga, who's the founder of Stacked Marketer, a daily marketing email newsletter.
[00:00:31.840 --> 00:00:34.960] He bootstrapped to 700k in revenue.
[00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:45.120] In 2023, he acquired two newsletters to bring the subscriber count to over 100k and even raised a small 250,000 funding round to help boost growth.
[00:00:45.120 --> 00:00:51.040] Now, if you're inspired by this episode and want to start a newsletter of your own, I have the perfect option for you.
[00:00:51.040 --> 00:00:54.320] That is, of course, Indiebyte sponsor, Email Octopus.
[00:00:54.320 --> 00:01:01.280] Email Octopus are an email platform focused on affordability and ease of use without all the bloated features that some email apps have.
[00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:08.560] So you can focus on shipping and growing your audience, which you'll know is essential for growth in the early days, which Manu talks about in this episode.
[00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:14.720] So to get started with an email platform that gets out of the way, you can contact up to 2,500 people for free.
[00:01:14.720 --> 00:01:17.760] Head to emailoctopus.com or hit the link in the show notes.
[00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:19.120] Let's get into this episode.
[00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:20.320] Manu, welcome to the pod.
[00:01:20.320 --> 00:01:20.960] How are you doing?
[00:01:20.960 --> 00:01:22.080] Hey, thanks for having me.
[00:01:22.080 --> 00:01:23.440] Doing well, doing well.
[00:01:23.440 --> 00:01:30.640] Actually, you are not the first, not the second, but the third guest I've had on who has a background in playing poker.
[00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:36.240] Tell me how you got into poker and like how you think this has helped your journey into business.
[00:01:36.240 --> 00:01:38.880] Well, the getting into poker was an interesting thing.
[00:01:38.880 --> 00:01:44.160] In our breaks in high school, we used to just want to do some stuff and we played cards.
[00:01:44.160 --> 00:01:45.840] Then at one point, we played poker.
[00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:49.120] Then at one point, someone was like, yeah, this is boring without any betting.
[00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:51.440] So I bet one layo remain in currency.
[00:01:51.440 --> 00:01:52.880] So then I was like, oh, interesting.
[00:01:52.880 --> 00:01:54.320] Now this is a way that he can make money.
[00:01:54.320 --> 00:01:57.120] So I googled, I think, poker strategy specifically.
[00:01:57.120 --> 00:01:58.640] And that's kind of how it all started.
[00:01:58.640 --> 00:03:32.000] It was kind of a poker boom time and even a little bit after the main poker boom there was a period where it's kind of an affiliate deal where if you signed up under a certain affiliate link the commission that you would generate for the poker boom would be attributed to that affiliate and then those affiliates had the right to then incentivize you to sign up under them the best way they would do that was by teaching poker and then giving you fifty dollars to start so basically this concept of if you teach someone poker well enough and you give them money they would continue playing and you keep you make money off of them because if they're a winner winning player they always get commission from you because they continue playing so were you like a poker coach as well or was that like the kind of business you're running so i was a poker player and a poker coach after i got pretty good at it for like low to mid stakes oh okay so tell me how you transitioned from doing this into doing stacked marketing where did the idea come from for you uh i really wanted to do something that's an own product so as an affiliate you learn quite a few things about how to promote other people's products you can see that you can get you know some pretty good results but i was thinking how can i create the full how can i own the whole product how can i make a product that people really like a lot while still using those affiliate skills and around the same time i ran into morning brew which was doing they were very focused on finance back then now they're kind of more mainstream they have a lot of other newsletters they're more specialized but back then you would be able to call them a finance newsletter and i'm interested in finance and investing as well so it was like oh this is very interesting is there anything like this for marketing?
[00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:35.200] So just try to build that in a way that i would like it.
[00:03:35.200 --> 00:03:37.040] So in a way that i would find it useful.
[00:03:37.040 --> 00:03:46.400] Then talk to friends, ask for feedback, you know, 10 friends personally, talk to them, hey, sign up here, give me feedback every day for the next week, stuff like that.
[00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:49.360] And it kind of evolved really quickly at the beginning.
[00:03:49.360 --> 00:04:03.520] Then once I put it publicly in a few groups and chats that I knew with other marketers on my social media and stuff, we got a few hundred subscribers and then we kind of could get the ball rolling out on getting feedback from users that have no idea who I am.
[00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:07.280] So what was actually the content going into the newsletter when you started?
[00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:11.840] Because you're inspired by Morning Brew and you can do that for marketing.
[00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:15.440] Were you sort of curating articles of certain marketing?
[00:04:15.440 --> 00:04:19.440] Were you taking sort of the Harry Dry approach of doing tips and marketing?
[00:04:19.440 --> 00:04:21.760] Where was your sweet spot for the newsletter content?
[00:04:21.760 --> 00:04:28.800] It was very much curating the news and kind of putting the a lot of the news that you would have for marketing, it would be kind of mainstream.
[00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:34.000] Or let's say there's news related to Facebook's earnings or whatever, Facebook earnings, Google earnings, stuff like that.
[00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:36.960] And you're like, okay, but that's for investors.
[00:04:36.960 --> 00:04:40.800] But there's still some tidbits of information that's relevant for marketers, right?
[00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:50.000] Like, oh, CPMs are higher, CPMs are lower, there's more impressions, there's more users, there's less users, there's more users, like there's no more users, user growth in the US, right?
[00:04:50.240 --> 00:05:01.360] We just try to curate the news, but add the what's in it for me as a marketer rather than just leave it as, you know, this is what the mainstream news says and do whatever you want with it.
[00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:08.720] And it might be hard to look back on what you specifically did six years ago when you started StatMart in terms of growth.
[00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:16.240] But maybe with advice you might be giving to other people about starting a newsletter now, how do you get those first thousand subscribers?
[00:05:16.400 --> 00:05:23.080] If someone's listening, like, right, I want to start a newsletter, I've got an idea, I want to do the stat marketer for indie businesses.
[00:05:23.080 --> 00:05:26.240] Where should they go about getting those first thousand subscribers?
[00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:40.600] I think it's still best to do it the way we did it to some extent, which is first start talking to your closest friends from the industry or like people who would be an ideal customer who would also be willing to talk to you right away.
[00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:43.320] And then if they appreciate it, ask them to also spread the board.
[00:05:43.320 --> 00:05:46.280] That's kind of how you can get a few hundred subscribers to begin with.
[00:05:46.280 --> 00:05:50.120] In, you know, there's a lot of groups there for marketers.
[00:05:50.280 --> 00:05:51.320] You have that for investing.
[00:05:51.320 --> 00:05:53.080] You have that for any topic in the world.
[00:05:53.080 --> 00:05:57.240] There will be like some Facebook groups, some Slack communities, some forums.
[00:05:57.240 --> 00:05:59.640] There will be some like subreddits, whatever.
[00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:07.480] There will be communities for almost any topic where you can, you know, if you build the newsletter for yourself as well, you're obviously part of that community.
[00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:09.000] So then you can connect there.
[00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:13.960] So I think that's it's important to get your first few hundred to a thousand subscribers kind of organically.
[00:06:13.960 --> 00:06:20.280] So I'm not saying you should not, you know, spread your word and do, let's say, marketing in that sense, but I would avoid like paid social.
[00:06:20.280 --> 00:06:32.200] I would avoid recommendations that are paid because those, although it can be good to scale, those are never going to be as frequently giving you feedback and tailoring this product.
[00:06:32.200 --> 00:06:39.640] So what will happen would usually be if you pay for those kind of first 1,000 subscribers, they sign up, they don't like it, they're gone.
[00:06:39.640 --> 00:06:47.320] But if you have the first 1,000 through friends, communities, and stuff like that, they will be like, hey, I understand what you're trying to build here.
[00:06:47.320 --> 00:06:48.520] Here's how you can make it better.
[00:06:48.520 --> 00:06:50.920] There's way more people who will say that to you.
[00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:59.240] So yeah, what I did, first 10 manually reaching out to people, let's say first hundred and a few were posting on my social media.
[00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:01.720] They posted on their social media, stuff like that.
[00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:13.720] And then up to a thousand, reaching out to a few more people who had communities, like friends of a friend who had a blog, who had a news newsletter, who had a community, and asked them, Can we pay you to promote us or so?
[00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:19.520] So that's the only paid part, but it was still a very tight-knit community or tight-knit group where we were promoted in.
[00:07:19.840 --> 00:07:33.680] Yeah, well, Manu, this is very much similar advice that you would give to people who are growing software products that they should speak to their users and potential users in order to validate it rather than just paying to get users, which might necessarily be the right fit for it.
[00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:37.760] Then you can change your position and your content to make it the best possible product.
[00:07:37.760 --> 00:07:43.280] Now, were you going out and starting this to make money, or was this going to be a side hustle, a bit of fun for you?
[00:07:43.280 --> 00:07:44.080] Or was this right?
[00:07:44.080 --> 00:07:47.440] I'm setting out for this to be a business for me.
[00:07:47.760 --> 00:07:49.920] Definitely was setting out to make it a business.
[00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:53.760] It was more like, okay, what are the steps to prove that this is a business?
[00:07:53.760 --> 00:07:56.800] First, make sure that people are okay with reading it.
[00:07:56.800 --> 00:08:02.480] So, first, prove the content that prove the content is a good fit for our target audience.
[00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:11.440] And my thinking there was like if a thousand people open it in a day, that's pretty clear sign that you know people are interested in what we have to say.
[00:08:11.440 --> 00:08:18.160] Then, we wanted to have the next two steps: monetization, which was supposed to be ad revenue, which had two parts to it.
[00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:20.720] First, we wanted to see if companies were willing to pay.
[00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:35.520] So, I thought, again, a thousand eyeballs should garner some interest because if you see how much people pay to attend some conferences, some companies pay, you know, $30,000 to sponsor 1,000 attendee conferences, and kind of that's it, what they get.
[00:08:35.520 --> 00:08:39.760] They should be able to pay a few hundred to see their ad in a newsletter.
[00:08:39.760 --> 00:08:47.360] And then, third one, which was kind of the key, putting things together: will our readership now be okay with seeing ads?
[00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:49.120] Will they be thrilled about ads?
[00:08:49.280 --> 00:08:51.520] What's their reaction to the ads in the newsletter?
[00:08:51.520 --> 00:08:58.320] Because if you know, not everyone, but if you just have a skyrocketing unsubscribe rate after you put in your first ad, that's a bad sign.
[00:08:58.320 --> 00:08:59.800] But it was all okay for us.
[00:08:59.800 --> 00:09:05.240] So we kind of from that point on, once we had the ads rolling, you know, took a bit of learning.
[00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:12.680] It wasn't instant like skyrocketing or anything, but we had the proof of okay, this is a good fit for the audience.
[00:09:12.680 --> 00:09:13.720] It can be monetized.
[00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:15.240] There are companies who want to pay for it.
[00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:16.120] So it's a business.
[00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:23.000] And we wanted to do that within, you know, three or so months because this was still part of my testing period of like, I want to have an own product.
[00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:25.240] If this doesn't work, I'll go to the next idea.
[00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:31.320] And it's hard to condense sort of five years of growth into a short answer, Manu.
[00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:34.520] But are there any inflection points that you can look back on?
[00:09:34.520 --> 00:09:44.760] Or was it just grinding through for the last couple of years, chipping away at the same thing you've been doing, making a really good product that has contributed to your growth?
[00:09:44.760 --> 00:09:50.280] It's been mostly chipping away, but there were a few key points that were really helpful, I would say.
[00:09:50.280 --> 00:09:58.120] So back then, one big boost was when we started doing more newsletter swaps with newsletters that were a little bit bigger than us.
[00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:01.960] Introducing a referral program had a very nice positive effect as well.
[00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:04.520] I think, again, that might have changed now.
[00:10:04.520 --> 00:10:08.760] So I think that might be something to not just jump on so quickly.
[00:10:08.760 --> 00:10:11.720] You have to really think about what you're offering in terms of rewards.
[00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:16.600] It's not the same as it was five years ago, but back then that was a good one.
[00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:25.080] And then jumping up to 2020, a lot of ad budgets were cut, not knowing how the economic situation will be in the world and stuff.
[00:10:25.080 --> 00:10:33.800] A lot of newsletters had a lot of free spots available, and we could get some really cheap placements in Morning Grew, The Hustle, 1440.
[00:10:33.800 --> 00:10:38.840] So, some of the newsletters now that are kind of the most known and some of the biggest out there.
[00:10:38.840 --> 00:10:43.480] And the cost per lead there for an engage subscriber was extremely good.
[00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:46.320] So, that's in a way lucky, but in a way, really good.
[00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:55.760] And that's one of the things that I said now recently, and that it's one of the things that I would double down on if I would be able to go back in time and, like, what are some mistakes or things that I want to learn from.
[00:10:55.760 --> 00:11:00.400] It's like, okay, buy another set of ads in all of those newsletters back then at those prices.
[00:11:00.400 --> 00:11:01.680] Yeah, well, there you go.
[00:11:01.680 --> 00:11:02.720] Looking back on it.
[00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:08.480] How involved are you in writing the newsletter now and the content for Stat Marketer?
[00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:10.080] Because I know you've sort of grown a team.
[00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:12.560] I'm assuming that's a team of writers and marketers.
[00:11:12.560 --> 00:11:13.680] How involved are you?
[00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:16.240] In writing the daily newsletter, not much at all.
[00:11:16.400 --> 00:11:21.280] I do contribute on some ideas in terms of like what type of content, strategic stuff.
[00:11:21.280 --> 00:11:27.360] I do help out with an opinion or review when it comes to content that we write and we create.
[00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:32.240] So, on the news side of curating the news and how we approach the news, it's near zero.
[00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:36.960] Like, I still look at it, but I don't have real-time input as much.
[00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:40.000] The things that I still write are things like the annual report.
[00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:44.400] I might write some stuff when, you know, some psychology of marketing edition.
[00:11:44.400 --> 00:11:56.240] If I have a good idea, I might write some essentially like they're bits and pieces where maybe I have a good idea, I would write it and share it with everyone else to be like, hey, you know, we can publish this in the next month or whenever it fits.
[00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:58.080] And you mentioned your open report.
[00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:05.120] This is something that is really worth a read if anyone's interested in the ins and outs of a newsletter like yours, Manu.
[00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:09.120] It's quite common in the bootstrappers, seeing this build-in-public movement.
[00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:11.440] It's less common in newsletters.
[00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:17.040] In the most recent report you wrote, you said you didn't quite hit the numbers you were looking for.
[00:12:17.040 --> 00:12:22.000] You were aiming for a million this year, or last year you only hit 750,000.
[00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:27.360] I put my question here: Do you think that has a problem with your goal setting or your execution on hitting that goal?
[00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:29.280] I think it might be neither in a way.
[00:12:29.280 --> 00:12:31.640] So, it might be option secret option number three.
[00:12:29.680 --> 00:12:35.880] Of course, like you can always improve what you how you execute things.
[00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:45.320] So, not to say that we did everything perfect, but I think the biggest impact of why we didn't achieve that goal was actually just market conditions in terms of ad budgets.
[00:12:45.320 --> 00:12:55.720] So, anyone who did some ad sales, especially when it comes to SaaS products, they will kind of see like, yeah, we don't have ad budget for this, we don't have advertising budget for this, that that's been cut a lot.
[00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:58.120] And that's normal because funding has been cut a lot.
[00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:03.000] So, essentially, you had a lot of you know, grow at all costs, make sure you at least break even.
[00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:07.640] Or if you don't break even, you have the stats that go up because then you'll have your next funding round.
[00:13:07.640 --> 00:13:08.760] But that's changed now.
[00:13:08.760 --> 00:13:11.000] You cannot just get your next funding round so easily.
[00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:19.880] So, a lot of people cut budgets, they're kind of focused on growing slower, more sustainable, or like profitability has to be quicker rather than growth at all costs.
[00:13:19.880 --> 00:13:23.160] So, I think that had the biggest impact overall.
[00:13:23.160 --> 00:13:27.880] You mentioned sort of the VC approach to growing a business.
[00:13:27.880 --> 00:13:30.440] You've bootstrapped Stack Marketer from the start.
[00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:38.920] You even got to the point where you had acquired some newsletters, but you've since then gone on and raised a small round.
[00:13:38.920 --> 00:13:40.040] Manny, why do this?
[00:13:40.040 --> 00:13:43.000] It feels like you've built a really good, solid business here.
[00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:45.560] You're doing some experiments, some work, some don't.
[00:13:45.560 --> 00:13:47.400] But why raise this small amount?
[00:13:47.400 --> 00:13:50.920] I think you said it a 3 million Euro valuation.
[00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:54.760] Well, it was back in summer 2023.
[00:13:54.760 --> 00:14:04.200] We had an in-person meeting with all the team, and the meetings that we had, and the discussions that we had were around: okay, how do we see Stack Marketer develop over the next, let's say, five years or more?
[00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:05.560] What's the long-term plan here?
[00:14:05.560 --> 00:14:06.840] What's the long-term vision, right?
[00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:26.240] We've acquired back then only one newsletter, and what became very obvious very quickly is that the type of product or the type of platform that we want to offer for marketers, including content education and everything around it, you know, we could do it bootstrapped and take it step by step slowly, but at the same time, it's less predictable in when we can do it.
[00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:37.200] Because once you rely only on your own profits, then if there's a swing in you know in your profits, like hey, this year is not as good as it you thought it might be, it doesn't you know ruin your business or anything.
[00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:40.480] It's not a danger to your business, but it's a danger to your development.
[00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:55.840] So, especially when it comes to developing technology, when it comes to developing content or investing in growth, we felt that it's better to have a lump sum that's not part of, let's say, the daily operations and our that's not used for the daily operations and invest that into this development.
[00:14:55.840 --> 00:15:05.520] The alternative would have been don't raise, wait another year or two and try to put that money aside as profit, you know, and then use that.
[00:15:05.520 --> 00:15:12.800] So, you have like a two to three year head start if you raise now and just use that money, man.
[00:15:12.800 --> 00:15:13.760] You've been a great guest.
[00:15:13.760 --> 00:15:24.080] I end every episode on three recommendations, but I put an extra one in here for you: a book, a podcast, indie hacker/slash entrepreneur, and then a newsletter at the end.
[00:15:24.400 --> 00:15:26.880] Book, book, book, book, book, book.
[00:15:26.880 --> 00:15:29.280] I think The Social Animal, I would recommend it.
[00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:31.200] Really good book on social psychology.
[00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:33.840] And I think for marketers, it's great.
[00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:41.920] Podcast recently, newsletter operator, indie hacker entrepreneur, someone you're inspired by, even maybe Andrew Wilkinson.
[00:15:41.920 --> 00:15:43.040] I think pretty interesting.
[00:15:43.040 --> 00:15:44.240] Oh, yeah, yeah.
[00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:46.480] And then, final one: newsletter.
[00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:49.680] What should people subscribe to apart from Stack Marketer, obviously?
[00:15:49.680 --> 00:15:51.200] Ah, smart nonsense.
[00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:52.000] There we go.
[00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:55.200] Manny, mate, thank you so much for coming on this episode of Indiebites.
[00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:56.480] It was great being with you here.
[00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:57.680] Thanks for having me.
[00:15:57.680 --> 00:16:00.280] Thank you for listening to this episode of Indiebites.
[00:15:59.920 --> 00:16:07.000] A reminder: if you are inspired by this episode and want to make an email newsletter of your own, Email Octopus is the place to go.
[00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:08.600] But that's all from me.
[00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:10.200] See you next week.