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Prompt 1: Context Setup

You are an expert data extractor tasked with analyzing a podcast transcript. 
I will provide you with part 1 of 1 from a podcast transcript. 
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Transcript section:
[00:00:01.600 --> 00:00:05.440] And then all of a sudden, basically, the music stopped, right?
[00:00:05.440 --> 00:00:07.920] And so that's impacted us in a massive way.
[00:00:07.920 --> 00:00:11.840] And yeah, we lost 70% of our revenue in six months.
[00:00:11.840 --> 00:00:17.680] Hello, and welcome back to Indiebukes, the podcast where I bring you stories of fellow indie hackers in 15 minutes or less.
[00:00:17.680 --> 00:00:26.640] And today I'm joined by Max Serrano, who's the founder of I Got an Offer, a bootstrap coaching platform focused on helping people get jobs and progress their career.
[00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:40.720] Initially started out in consulting, Max started I Got an Offer on the side creating digital products to help people land consulting jobs, but pivoted to coaching after they lost 70% of their revenue in the tech hiring freeze, having to lay off the majority of his staff.
[00:00:40.720 --> 00:00:45.200] Now, with a profit-first mentality, they are on the growth trajectory again.
[00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:48.880] But before we get into this chat, I'd quickly like to thank my sponsor, Email Octopus.
[00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:58.160] EmailOctomus are an email platform focused on affordability with a very generous free plan and ease of use without the bloated features that some of these other email apps have.
[00:00:58.160 --> 00:01:05.280] So you can focus on shipping and growing your audience, which, if you're a regular listener, you know it's essential for growth in the early days.
[00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:11.040] So to get started with an email platform that just gets out of the way, you can contact up to 2,500 people for free.
[00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:14.240] Head to emailoctomus.com or hit the link in the show notes.
[00:01:14.240 --> 00:01:16.720] Let's get into this episode with Max Serrano.
[00:01:16.720 --> 00:01:18.560] Max Serrano, welcome to the pod.
[00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:19.280] How are you doing?
[00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:20.400] I'm good, James.
[00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:22.800] So talk me through your sort of career path.
[00:01:22.800 --> 00:01:26.960] You were working at Bloomberg and then you were trying to switch to management consulting.
[00:01:26.960 --> 00:01:28.960] Talk to me how all that came about.
[00:01:28.960 --> 00:01:36.160] Yeah, so I graduated from Imperial College and kind of like found a job at Bloomberg, which I enjoyed.
[00:01:36.160 --> 00:01:43.440] It was, you know, an interesting job, but I kind of like had this idea that I wanted to work in strategy and strategic consulting.
[00:01:43.440 --> 00:01:47.680] And yeah, I had a rough time making the transition to strategy consulting.
[00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:56.320] It took me about a year for various reasons, but yeah, initially, I was struggling to get interviews at companies like McKinsey, BCG, Bain, and so on.
[00:01:56.320 --> 00:02:01.000] And then I got a few interviews, but you know, I was completely bombing them.
[00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:06.520] In that process, I learned a lot about interviewing essentially and about how to get jobs.
[00:02:06.520 --> 00:02:14.360] And eventually, I got a job I was really excited about at Oliver Wyman, which is a strategy consulting firm as well in London.
[00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:22.120] And while I was working there, yeah, I started creating content around interviewing, around getting jobs in management consulting.
[00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:27.640] And so I got an offer with essentially a blog and an online course provider initially.
[00:02:27.640 --> 00:02:40.760] People could go on there and kind of like read what I had to say about interviewing and download a few digital products that were tailored to interviewing in the consulting space.
[00:02:40.760 --> 00:02:44.120] Max, why would anyone want to get into strategy consulting?
[00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:45.000] Why was that something new?
[00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:46.920] Were you following the money?
[00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:49.400] I was in it for the business angle.
[00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:53.160] I've always been interested in business, kind of like starting companies.
[00:02:53.160 --> 00:02:56.840] The strategy angle is what I was excited and.
[00:02:56.840 --> 00:02:59.960] And I actually think it's a great way to start your career.
[00:02:59.960 --> 00:03:12.200] I've learned a lot in management consulting, whether it's kind of like writing stuff, saying stuff the right way, thinking about business the right way, analyzing numbers and getting to conclusions.
[00:03:12.200 --> 00:03:16.360] I think it's helped me a ton in my bootstrapping journey, actually.
[00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:26.760] What do you think some of the key things you've learned from management consulting and strategy has helped you in your bootstrapping and how that can apply to other indie hackers?
[00:03:26.760 --> 00:03:33.280] Two things that come to mind are like, number one, I've been managed by good managers, right?
[00:03:33.240 --> 00:03:37.720] And so, if you've been managed by good managers, it's a lot easier to be a good manager yourself.
[00:03:37.720 --> 00:03:52.240] And so, once I've started kind of like hiring people onto my team, like I already knew essentially how to run one-on-ones, how to give like performance reviews and so on, because I had spent five years in professional services where people know how to do this, right?
[00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:53.760] So, that's kind of like one thing.
[00:03:53.760 --> 00:03:59.920] The second thing that's been really helpful for me is I've learned about analyzing data, right?
[00:03:59.920 --> 00:04:02.880] I use that like almost every day in my job, right?
[00:04:02.880 --> 00:04:13.920] And so, although I'm not technical from like a web development point of view, from like a data analysis point of view, I guess I am technical, and that's helped me make better decisions.
[00:04:14.160 --> 00:04:18.080] I think a lot of ND founders aren't as serious about the numbers and the data as they could be.
[00:04:18.080 --> 00:04:23.120] I fall into this category myself, I don't have a handle on the numbers as well as I could.
[00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:28.320] And I recently read Rob Walling's book, The SAS Playbook, and he has a whole chapter on metrics and the data.
[00:04:28.400 --> 00:04:42.720] I don't know if this is the sort of data you're referring to, but understanding your metrics across all parts of your business can be crucial to growing it and understanding what you need to change to improve and get to where you need to go.
[00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:46.240] So, tell me about the conception of IGON offer.
[00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:54.800] You said it was because you found the interview process for management consulting really challenging, like you weren't succeeding in certain areas.
[00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:57.680] So, was it just from the sort of stuff you were learning?
[00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:01.280] You're like, I've got to tell people about this, there's no information about this online.
[00:05:01.280 --> 00:05:02.560] Yeah, it's kind of like two things.
[00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:15.680] The first one was, I think, as I've told you, like in the past, I had tried to start projects with friends, but a few times I ran into the problem of like, you know, we were wanting to build something we didn't really have the skills for.
[00:05:15.840 --> 00:05:18.080] So, so that's kind of like the first thing.
[00:05:18.080 --> 00:05:25.520] And then, the second thing is, I went through all these interviews, and there were like some resources online, but it just wasn't very good, right?
[00:05:25.840 --> 00:05:35.000] And so, I thought, okay, I have this problem of like, you know, I'm preparing for interviews, the resources are not good, I can't be the only person in the world to feel that way.
[00:05:35.320 --> 00:05:39.640] And now I've learned how to do this, and I can create that content myself.
[00:05:39.640 --> 00:05:41.080] So I'm just gonna do it.
[00:05:41.080 --> 00:05:45.480] How were you making money from this for the beginning, or was it purely a resource to help people?
[00:05:45.640 --> 00:05:54.680] The first product we launched was digital products that people could download to train for a test that was called a McKinsey problem solving test.
[00:05:54.680 --> 00:06:00.680] And then we launched other digital products, other digital courses, and that's how we made revenue initially.
[00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:03.000] And how was that going in terms of revenue?
[00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:04.760] Was it an SEO play?
[00:06:04.760 --> 00:06:06.120] Were you buying ads?
[00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:10.600] Initially, we just launched the product without really thinking about any of this.
[00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:14.120] And we then realized that we needed to build some acquisition.
[00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:16.840] And so we wrote a few blog posts.
[00:06:16.840 --> 00:06:19.080] So SEO was the way we went about it.
[00:06:19.080 --> 00:06:23.480] And to this day, actually, SEO is our biggest acquisition channel.
[00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:25.080] I've heard that from so many people.
[00:06:25.080 --> 00:06:30.040] And you're saying we, like, after a year or so of doing this, you got some friends involved.
[00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:34.680] You said you're using the slicing pie method of sharing equity.
[00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:36.520] Tell me a bit more about that, Max.
[00:06:36.520 --> 00:06:41.960] Yeah, so I guess the situation was I was creating content, but I felt things were too slow.
[00:06:42.280 --> 00:06:50.360] I had, you know, had a full-time job and was doing this nights and weekends, but creating like high-quality content just takes time, right?
[00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:54.520] And so I thought, well, I'm going to ask a few friends if they want to help out.
[00:06:54.520 --> 00:06:59.560] And instead of paying them with cash, I found this book called the Slicing Pie Method.
[00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:00.360] And yeah, it's great.
[00:07:00.520 --> 00:07:08.040] Basically, it shows you how to create a spreadsheet where everyone records the number of hours they spend on the project.
[00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:11.560] And equity is split that way between different people.
[00:07:11.560 --> 00:07:22.320] And I felt like it worked great for us because everyone could spend as much or as little time as they wanted to on the project, and equity would kind of like fluctuate in that way.
[00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:26.560] I know the funders in the bootstrapping community have used it as well.
[00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:30.480] I know Matt from Front End Mentor has used this.
[00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:39.920] Yeah, so if you're looking to get other people involved in your project without having to pay them, essentially, it's a great way of doing this initially.
[00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:43.200] Talk me through the next few years for you then.
[00:07:43.200 --> 00:07:48.320] This was a side project for you, but it was growing up until a point, right?
[00:07:48.640 --> 00:07:54.800] I basically spent, yeah, I'd say like three or four years like this, kind of like doing this on the side.
[00:07:55.120 --> 00:08:01.520] And I think at some point around like 2017, I think the revenue was flat essentially.
[00:08:01.520 --> 00:08:07.360] And I think that was partly because we're all like busy with our jobs and didn't have much time.
[00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:18.240] And at the same time, like, you know, I had spent like a good four years in management consulting and I had learned a lot, but I could see what I was learning was beginning to diminish a bit.
[00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:22.800] And so I thought, well, I'm, you know, I'm going to test going full-time on this.
[00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:29.280] So I took a six-month sabbatical and yeah, really enjoyed it and never looked back essentially.
[00:08:29.280 --> 00:08:31.920] So how did those next few months go for you?
[00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:35.600] What were you doing to kickstart that revenue again?
[00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:48.400] Yeah, so what really made the difference for us was me kind of like doubling down on SEO and just sitting down every day and writing articles and scaling acquisition that way.
[00:08:48.400 --> 00:08:50.000] But that's not the first thing I did.
[00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:57.520] I think I spent probably the first like two or three months trying to improve the products and trying to launch other products.
[00:08:57.520 --> 00:09:06.520] But in retrospect, like now it's, I see it, but in retrospect, at the time we had, you know, we had products, but we didn't really have like distribution.
[00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:18.440] And so at some point I decided to kind of like double down on this and it was the right thing to do because after I did this, that's really when the business started to really grow.
[00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:26.760] At some point, I could feel that we had tapped out the consulting market and there wasn't much growth left for us in there.
[00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:35.080] And so we started looking at other markets and decided to give a go to tech essentially.
[00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:37.080] And so that's what we did.
[00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:45.240] We started trying to help people get into companies like Google, Amazon, Meta, Microsoft, and so on.
[00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:54.200] One problem we kind of faced there was that I didn't know anything about interviews in product management or in software engineering and so on.
[00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:58.280] And so we had to change our product a bit.
[00:09:58.280 --> 00:10:02.760] And instead of doing courses in tech, we did coaching.
[00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:10.440] And so that's kind of when we started being less of a course provider and more of a coaching marketplace, which is what we are today.
[00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:12.360] Today we don't provide courses anymore.
[00:10:12.520 --> 00:10:13.720] We just do coaching.
[00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:18.520] And that switched from content to being a coach in marketplace.
[00:10:18.520 --> 00:10:20.360] Did that throw up any problems?
[00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:27.160] I guess one of the things I kind of like grappled with for a long time was the profit margin, right?
[00:10:27.160 --> 00:10:31.480] On coaching is a lot lower than it is on content.
[00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:43.640] And so for us, it was kind of like a trade-off of like, okay, playing in a smaller market with a higher margin or playing in a much, much bigger market, but accepting having lower margins.
[00:10:43.640 --> 00:10:47.040] And so eventually, like, you know, we accepted that.
[00:10:47.040 --> 00:10:49.520] And that was the right call, I think.
[00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:54.080] So, and Max, you've gone through all of this awesome growth over the last couple of years.
[00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:55.360] You've been scaling up.
[00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:56.720] Things are coming rosy.
[00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:57.920] They're all good for you.
[00:10:57.920 --> 00:11:03.840] But sometimes when things are going really well, there's the opportunity for it all to fall away.
[00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:07.280] And you had quite a dramatic drop in revenue.
[00:11:07.280 --> 00:11:15.200] Now, this is awful to see, but you actually lost 70% of your revenue in six months, sort of midway through that pivot.
[00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:16.160] Why did that happen?
[00:11:16.160 --> 00:11:18.480] And talk me through your feelings during that.
[00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:21.360] Yeah, I mean, that was horrible, honestly.
[00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:25.520] It was a really, a really tough time for the team and for myself.
[00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:30.800] Yeah, so during COVID, fan companies just started hiring like crazy.
[00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:34.480] And we really benefited from that.
[00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:41.920] And I think the peak in terms of hiring was around March 2022.
[00:11:42.560 --> 00:11:45.920] And then all of a sudden, basically, the music stopped.
[00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:48.880] And so that's impacted us in a massive way.
[00:11:48.880 --> 00:11:52.640] And yeah, we lost 70% of our revenue in six months.
[00:11:52.640 --> 00:11:57.840] And yeah, I had to let go of six or seven people in my team of 10.
[00:11:58.080 --> 00:11:59.680] That is an awful feeling.
[00:11:59.680 --> 00:12:04.000] I remember seeing all the tech hiring freezes and the layoffs.
[00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:11.680] And it's just, and like when you're looking at your revenue, you're thinking, surely this will recover, like we'll bounce back from this.
[00:12:11.680 --> 00:12:13.200] But it keeps going down and down and down.
[00:12:13.280 --> 00:12:15.920] It comes to a point where you have to make that decision.
[00:12:15.920 --> 00:12:20.080] Shit, we're going to have to lay people off and reconsider this.
[00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:22.480] Are you more careful with hiring now?
[00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:23.920] More like hiring when it hurts.
[00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:28.800] Yeah, in retrospect, like we were, we were basically hiring as fast as we could.
[00:12:28.800 --> 00:12:31.640] But I've kind of like changed my stance on this now.
[00:12:31.800 --> 00:12:40.920] And we take a margin of safety, essentially, and we kind of like set a target profit margin internally that we try to hit every month.
[00:12:40.920 --> 00:12:46.520] We only hire new people when we can still hit that profit margin.
[00:12:46.520 --> 00:12:47.480] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:12:47.480 --> 00:12:51.160] So, the last year, what's it been like for you?
[00:12:51.160 --> 00:12:56.440] Have you sort of regained some stability, back growing, and sort of what does the future look like for you?
[00:12:56.440 --> 00:13:00.680] Yeah, so the past kind of like six to nine months have been a lot better.
[00:13:00.680 --> 00:13:07.320] We're kind of like profitable again and growing again and expanding again, which you know, which feels great.
[00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:18.440] And so, we're looking at expanding to new industries like investment banking, private equity, venture capital, and we're also expanding to new use cases.
[00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:35.720] So, in the past, we were very focused on helping people get jobs, but now we're kind of like growing new use cases, like helping people getting promoted faster, or helping people negotiate their salary, or planning their long-term career a bit more.
[00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:39.240] Or we're also thinking about helping people getting into schools.
[00:13:39.880 --> 00:13:44.600] So, yeah, those are the two kind of like dimensions along which we're expanding.
[00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:49.400] It's kind of like new types of new types of people and new types of use cases.
[00:13:49.400 --> 00:13:52.200] Yeah, that seems like a smart way to go.
[00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:55.240] And, Max, do you have any parting advice for IndieHackers?
[00:13:55.240 --> 00:14:00.760] If you could say this is the one thing that I think Indie Hackers should take away from it, what would that be?
[00:14:00.760 --> 00:14:05.640] Yeah, one thing I wish I had done like five years ago is I'd say like pay yourself.
[00:14:05.880 --> 00:14:07.480] That would be my advice.
[00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:24.960] And I think, you know, scaling and investing in your business is important, but I think certainly, like, personally, maybe one of the mistakes I've made in the past was over-investing in my business and not paying myself enough, which I've kind of like corrected now.
[00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:26.720] I think that is great parting advice.
[00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:34.320] So many people were taking on a lot of risk, a lot of challenges, bigger emotional burden to build a business.
[00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:34.800] Yeah.
[00:14:34.800 --> 00:14:37.920] So being rewarded for that financially makes sense.
[00:14:37.920 --> 00:14:47.280] Yes, you do need to reinvest back into your business, but if you can build it healthy enough to pay yourself as well, that's going to make it just a little bit more rewarding for you.
[00:14:48.560 --> 00:14:53.920] I end every episode on three recommendations: a book, a podcast, and Indie Hacker.
[00:14:53.920 --> 00:14:54.960] What have you got for me?
[00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:55.440] Cool.
[00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:55.840] All right.
[00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:59.200] So my book is actually called Profit First.
[00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:00.400] Then podcast.
[00:15:00.400 --> 00:15:06.560] I mean, it's one of the popular ones, but yeah, Starters for the Rest of Us by Rob Wadding, I feel is great.
[00:15:06.560 --> 00:15:11.440] And then in terms of entrepreneur, I'd recommend following like Pete Codes.
[00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:18.080] He runs probably like the best bootstrapper newsletter I know, which is a high signal.io.
[00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:20.000] Well, Max, great recommendations.
[00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:22.320] Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Indiebites.
[00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:23.120] Thanks, James.
[00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:25.760] Thank you for listening to this episode of Indiebites.
[00:15:25.760 --> 00:15:27.200] I really appreciate you listening.
[00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:29.520] You can find all information in the show notes.
[00:15:29.520 --> 00:15:33.200] And thank you again to my sponsor, Email Oxpus, for making the show happen.

Prompt 2: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 3: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 4: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Full Transcript

[00:00:01.600 --> 00:00:05.440] And then all of a sudden, basically, the music stopped, right?
[00:00:05.440 --> 00:00:07.920] And so that's impacted us in a massive way.
[00:00:07.920 --> 00:00:11.840] And yeah, we lost 70% of our revenue in six months.
[00:00:11.840 --> 00:00:17.680] Hello, and welcome back to Indiebukes, the podcast where I bring you stories of fellow indie hackers in 15 minutes or less.
[00:00:17.680 --> 00:00:26.640] And today I'm joined by Max Serrano, who's the founder of I Got an Offer, a bootstrap coaching platform focused on helping people get jobs and progress their career.
[00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:40.720] Initially started out in consulting, Max started I Got an Offer on the side creating digital products to help people land consulting jobs, but pivoted to coaching after they lost 70% of their revenue in the tech hiring freeze, having to lay off the majority of his staff.
[00:00:40.720 --> 00:00:45.200] Now, with a profit-first mentality, they are on the growth trajectory again.
[00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:48.880] But before we get into this chat, I'd quickly like to thank my sponsor, Email Octopus.
[00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:58.160] EmailOctomus are an email platform focused on affordability with a very generous free plan and ease of use without the bloated features that some of these other email apps have.
[00:00:58.160 --> 00:01:05.280] So you can focus on shipping and growing your audience, which, if you're a regular listener, you know it's essential for growth in the early days.
[00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:11.040] So to get started with an email platform that just gets out of the way, you can contact up to 2,500 people for free.
[00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:14.240] Head to emailoctomus.com or hit the link in the show notes.
[00:01:14.240 --> 00:01:16.720] Let's get into this episode with Max Serrano.
[00:01:16.720 --> 00:01:18.560] Max Serrano, welcome to the pod.
[00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:19.280] How are you doing?
[00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:20.400] I'm good, James.
[00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:22.800] So talk me through your sort of career path.
[00:01:22.800 --> 00:01:26.960] You were working at Bloomberg and then you were trying to switch to management consulting.
[00:01:26.960 --> 00:01:28.960] Talk to me how all that came about.
[00:01:28.960 --> 00:01:36.160] Yeah, so I graduated from Imperial College and kind of like found a job at Bloomberg, which I enjoyed.
[00:01:36.160 --> 00:01:43.440] It was, you know, an interesting job, but I kind of like had this idea that I wanted to work in strategy and strategic consulting.
[00:01:43.440 --> 00:01:47.680] And yeah, I had a rough time making the transition to strategy consulting.
[00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:56.320] It took me about a year for various reasons, but yeah, initially, I was struggling to get interviews at companies like McKinsey, BCG, Bain, and so on.
[00:01:56.320 --> 00:02:01.000] And then I got a few interviews, but you know, I was completely bombing them.
[00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:06.520] In that process, I learned a lot about interviewing essentially and about how to get jobs.
[00:02:06.520 --> 00:02:14.360] And eventually, I got a job I was really excited about at Oliver Wyman, which is a strategy consulting firm as well in London.
[00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:22.120] And while I was working there, yeah, I started creating content around interviewing, around getting jobs in management consulting.
[00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:27.640] And so I got an offer with essentially a blog and an online course provider initially.
[00:02:27.640 --> 00:02:40.760] People could go on there and kind of like read what I had to say about interviewing and download a few digital products that were tailored to interviewing in the consulting space.
[00:02:40.760 --> 00:02:44.120] Max, why would anyone want to get into strategy consulting?
[00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:45.000] Why was that something new?
[00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:46.920] Were you following the money?
[00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:49.400] I was in it for the business angle.
[00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:53.160] I've always been interested in business, kind of like starting companies.
[00:02:53.160 --> 00:02:56.840] The strategy angle is what I was excited and.
[00:02:56.840 --> 00:02:59.960] And I actually think it's a great way to start your career.
[00:02:59.960 --> 00:03:12.200] I've learned a lot in management consulting, whether it's kind of like writing stuff, saying stuff the right way, thinking about business the right way, analyzing numbers and getting to conclusions.
[00:03:12.200 --> 00:03:16.360] I think it's helped me a ton in my bootstrapping journey, actually.
[00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:26.760] What do you think some of the key things you've learned from management consulting and strategy has helped you in your bootstrapping and how that can apply to other indie hackers?
[00:03:26.760 --> 00:03:33.280] Two things that come to mind are like, number one, I've been managed by good managers, right?
[00:03:33.240 --> 00:03:37.720] And so, if you've been managed by good managers, it's a lot easier to be a good manager yourself.
[00:03:37.720 --> 00:03:52.240] And so, once I've started kind of like hiring people onto my team, like I already knew essentially how to run one-on-ones, how to give like performance reviews and so on, because I had spent five years in professional services where people know how to do this, right?
[00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:53.760] So, that's kind of like one thing.
[00:03:53.760 --> 00:03:59.920] The second thing that's been really helpful for me is I've learned about analyzing data, right?
[00:03:59.920 --> 00:04:02.880] I use that like almost every day in my job, right?
[00:04:02.880 --> 00:04:13.920] And so, although I'm not technical from like a web development point of view, from like a data analysis point of view, I guess I am technical, and that's helped me make better decisions.
[00:04:14.160 --> 00:04:18.080] I think a lot of ND founders aren't as serious about the numbers and the data as they could be.
[00:04:18.080 --> 00:04:23.120] I fall into this category myself, I don't have a handle on the numbers as well as I could.
[00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:28.320] And I recently read Rob Walling's book, The SAS Playbook, and he has a whole chapter on metrics and the data.
[00:04:28.400 --> 00:04:42.720] I don't know if this is the sort of data you're referring to, but understanding your metrics across all parts of your business can be crucial to growing it and understanding what you need to change to improve and get to where you need to go.
[00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:46.240] So, tell me about the conception of IGON offer.
[00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:54.800] You said it was because you found the interview process for management consulting really challenging, like you weren't succeeding in certain areas.
[00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:57.680] So, was it just from the sort of stuff you were learning?
[00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:01.280] You're like, I've got to tell people about this, there's no information about this online.
[00:05:01.280 --> 00:05:02.560] Yeah, it's kind of like two things.
[00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:15.680] The first one was, I think, as I've told you, like in the past, I had tried to start projects with friends, but a few times I ran into the problem of like, you know, we were wanting to build something we didn't really have the skills for.
[00:05:15.840 --> 00:05:18.080] So, so that's kind of like the first thing.
[00:05:18.080 --> 00:05:25.520] And then, the second thing is, I went through all these interviews, and there were like some resources online, but it just wasn't very good, right?
[00:05:25.840 --> 00:05:35.000] And so, I thought, okay, I have this problem of like, you know, I'm preparing for interviews, the resources are not good, I can't be the only person in the world to feel that way.
[00:05:35.320 --> 00:05:39.640] And now I've learned how to do this, and I can create that content myself.
[00:05:39.640 --> 00:05:41.080] So I'm just gonna do it.
[00:05:41.080 --> 00:05:45.480] How were you making money from this for the beginning, or was it purely a resource to help people?
[00:05:45.640 --> 00:05:54.680] The first product we launched was digital products that people could download to train for a test that was called a McKinsey problem solving test.
[00:05:54.680 --> 00:06:00.680] And then we launched other digital products, other digital courses, and that's how we made revenue initially.
[00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:03.000] And how was that going in terms of revenue?
[00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:04.760] Was it an SEO play?
[00:06:04.760 --> 00:06:06.120] Were you buying ads?
[00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:10.600] Initially, we just launched the product without really thinking about any of this.
[00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:14.120] And we then realized that we needed to build some acquisition.
[00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:16.840] And so we wrote a few blog posts.
[00:06:16.840 --> 00:06:19.080] So SEO was the way we went about it.
[00:06:19.080 --> 00:06:23.480] And to this day, actually, SEO is our biggest acquisition channel.
[00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:25.080] I've heard that from so many people.
[00:06:25.080 --> 00:06:30.040] And you're saying we, like, after a year or so of doing this, you got some friends involved.
[00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:34.680] You said you're using the slicing pie method of sharing equity.
[00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:36.520] Tell me a bit more about that, Max.
[00:06:36.520 --> 00:06:41.960] Yeah, so I guess the situation was I was creating content, but I felt things were too slow.
[00:06:42.280 --> 00:06:50.360] I had, you know, had a full-time job and was doing this nights and weekends, but creating like high-quality content just takes time, right?
[00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:54.520] And so I thought, well, I'm going to ask a few friends if they want to help out.
[00:06:54.520 --> 00:06:59.560] And instead of paying them with cash, I found this book called the Slicing Pie Method.
[00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:00.360] And yeah, it's great.
[00:07:00.520 --> 00:07:08.040] Basically, it shows you how to create a spreadsheet where everyone records the number of hours they spend on the project.
[00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:11.560] And equity is split that way between different people.
[00:07:11.560 --> 00:07:22.320] And I felt like it worked great for us because everyone could spend as much or as little time as they wanted to on the project, and equity would kind of like fluctuate in that way.
[00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:26.560] I know the funders in the bootstrapping community have used it as well.
[00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:30.480] I know Matt from Front End Mentor has used this.
[00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:39.920] Yeah, so if you're looking to get other people involved in your project without having to pay them, essentially, it's a great way of doing this initially.
[00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:43.200] Talk me through the next few years for you then.
[00:07:43.200 --> 00:07:48.320] This was a side project for you, but it was growing up until a point, right?
[00:07:48.640 --> 00:07:54.800] I basically spent, yeah, I'd say like three or four years like this, kind of like doing this on the side.
[00:07:55.120 --> 00:08:01.520] And I think at some point around like 2017, I think the revenue was flat essentially.
[00:08:01.520 --> 00:08:07.360] And I think that was partly because we're all like busy with our jobs and didn't have much time.
[00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:18.240] And at the same time, like, you know, I had spent like a good four years in management consulting and I had learned a lot, but I could see what I was learning was beginning to diminish a bit.
[00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:22.800] And so I thought, well, I'm, you know, I'm going to test going full-time on this.
[00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:29.280] So I took a six-month sabbatical and yeah, really enjoyed it and never looked back essentially.
[00:08:29.280 --> 00:08:31.920] So how did those next few months go for you?
[00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:35.600] What were you doing to kickstart that revenue again?
[00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:48.400] Yeah, so what really made the difference for us was me kind of like doubling down on SEO and just sitting down every day and writing articles and scaling acquisition that way.
[00:08:48.400 --> 00:08:50.000] But that's not the first thing I did.
[00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:57.520] I think I spent probably the first like two or three months trying to improve the products and trying to launch other products.
[00:08:57.520 --> 00:09:06.520] But in retrospect, like now it's, I see it, but in retrospect, at the time we had, you know, we had products, but we didn't really have like distribution.
[00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:18.440] And so at some point I decided to kind of like double down on this and it was the right thing to do because after I did this, that's really when the business started to really grow.
[00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:26.760] At some point, I could feel that we had tapped out the consulting market and there wasn't much growth left for us in there.
[00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:35.080] And so we started looking at other markets and decided to give a go to tech essentially.
[00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:37.080] And so that's what we did.
[00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:45.240] We started trying to help people get into companies like Google, Amazon, Meta, Microsoft, and so on.
[00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:54.200] One problem we kind of faced there was that I didn't know anything about interviews in product management or in software engineering and so on.
[00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:58.280] And so we had to change our product a bit.
[00:09:58.280 --> 00:10:02.760] And instead of doing courses in tech, we did coaching.
[00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:10.440] And so that's kind of when we started being less of a course provider and more of a coaching marketplace, which is what we are today.
[00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:12.360] Today we don't provide courses anymore.
[00:10:12.520 --> 00:10:13.720] We just do coaching.
[00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:18.520] And that switched from content to being a coach in marketplace.
[00:10:18.520 --> 00:10:20.360] Did that throw up any problems?
[00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:27.160] I guess one of the things I kind of like grappled with for a long time was the profit margin, right?
[00:10:27.160 --> 00:10:31.480] On coaching is a lot lower than it is on content.
[00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:43.640] And so for us, it was kind of like a trade-off of like, okay, playing in a smaller market with a higher margin or playing in a much, much bigger market, but accepting having lower margins.
[00:10:43.640 --> 00:10:47.040] And so eventually, like, you know, we accepted that.
[00:10:47.040 --> 00:10:49.520] And that was the right call, I think.
[00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:54.080] So, and Max, you've gone through all of this awesome growth over the last couple of years.
[00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:55.360] You've been scaling up.
[00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:56.720] Things are coming rosy.
[00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:57.920] They're all good for you.
[00:10:57.920 --> 00:11:03.840] But sometimes when things are going really well, there's the opportunity for it all to fall away.
[00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:07.280] And you had quite a dramatic drop in revenue.
[00:11:07.280 --> 00:11:15.200] Now, this is awful to see, but you actually lost 70% of your revenue in six months, sort of midway through that pivot.
[00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:16.160] Why did that happen?
[00:11:16.160 --> 00:11:18.480] And talk me through your feelings during that.
[00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:21.360] Yeah, I mean, that was horrible, honestly.
[00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:25.520] It was a really, a really tough time for the team and for myself.
[00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:30.800] Yeah, so during COVID, fan companies just started hiring like crazy.
[00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:34.480] And we really benefited from that.
[00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:41.920] And I think the peak in terms of hiring was around March 2022.
[00:11:42.560 --> 00:11:45.920] And then all of a sudden, basically, the music stopped.
[00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:48.880] And so that's impacted us in a massive way.
[00:11:48.880 --> 00:11:52.640] And yeah, we lost 70% of our revenue in six months.
[00:11:52.640 --> 00:11:57.840] And yeah, I had to let go of six or seven people in my team of 10.
[00:11:58.080 --> 00:11:59.680] That is an awful feeling.
[00:11:59.680 --> 00:12:04.000] I remember seeing all the tech hiring freezes and the layoffs.
[00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:11.680] And it's just, and like when you're looking at your revenue, you're thinking, surely this will recover, like we'll bounce back from this.
[00:12:11.680 --> 00:12:13.200] But it keeps going down and down and down.
[00:12:13.280 --> 00:12:15.920] It comes to a point where you have to make that decision.
[00:12:15.920 --> 00:12:20.080] Shit, we're going to have to lay people off and reconsider this.
[00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:22.480] Are you more careful with hiring now?
[00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:23.920] More like hiring when it hurts.
[00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:28.800] Yeah, in retrospect, like we were, we were basically hiring as fast as we could.
[00:12:28.800 --> 00:12:31.640] But I've kind of like changed my stance on this now.
[00:12:31.800 --> 00:12:40.920] And we take a margin of safety, essentially, and we kind of like set a target profit margin internally that we try to hit every month.
[00:12:40.920 --> 00:12:46.520] We only hire new people when we can still hit that profit margin.
[00:12:46.520 --> 00:12:47.480] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:12:47.480 --> 00:12:51.160] So, the last year, what's it been like for you?
[00:12:51.160 --> 00:12:56.440] Have you sort of regained some stability, back growing, and sort of what does the future look like for you?
[00:12:56.440 --> 00:13:00.680] Yeah, so the past kind of like six to nine months have been a lot better.
[00:13:00.680 --> 00:13:07.320] We're kind of like profitable again and growing again and expanding again, which you know, which feels great.
[00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:18.440] And so, we're looking at expanding to new industries like investment banking, private equity, venture capital, and we're also expanding to new use cases.
[00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:35.720] So, in the past, we were very focused on helping people get jobs, but now we're kind of like growing new use cases, like helping people getting promoted faster, or helping people negotiate their salary, or planning their long-term career a bit more.
[00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:39.240] Or we're also thinking about helping people getting into schools.
[00:13:39.880 --> 00:13:44.600] So, yeah, those are the two kind of like dimensions along which we're expanding.
[00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:49.400] It's kind of like new types of new types of people and new types of use cases.
[00:13:49.400 --> 00:13:52.200] Yeah, that seems like a smart way to go.
[00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:55.240] And, Max, do you have any parting advice for IndieHackers?
[00:13:55.240 --> 00:14:00.760] If you could say this is the one thing that I think Indie Hackers should take away from it, what would that be?
[00:14:00.760 --> 00:14:05.640] Yeah, one thing I wish I had done like five years ago is I'd say like pay yourself.
[00:14:05.880 --> 00:14:07.480] That would be my advice.
[00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:24.960] And I think, you know, scaling and investing in your business is important, but I think certainly, like, personally, maybe one of the mistakes I've made in the past was over-investing in my business and not paying myself enough, which I've kind of like corrected now.
[00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:26.720] I think that is great parting advice.
[00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:34.320] So many people were taking on a lot of risk, a lot of challenges, bigger emotional burden to build a business.
[00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:34.800] Yeah.
[00:14:34.800 --> 00:14:37.920] So being rewarded for that financially makes sense.
[00:14:37.920 --> 00:14:47.280] Yes, you do need to reinvest back into your business, but if you can build it healthy enough to pay yourself as well, that's going to make it just a little bit more rewarding for you.
[00:14:48.560 --> 00:14:53.920] I end every episode on three recommendations: a book, a podcast, and Indie Hacker.
[00:14:53.920 --> 00:14:54.960] What have you got for me?
[00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:55.440] Cool.
[00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:55.840] All right.
[00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:59.200] So my book is actually called Profit First.
[00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:00.400] Then podcast.
[00:15:00.400 --> 00:15:06.560] I mean, it's one of the popular ones, but yeah, Starters for the Rest of Us by Rob Wadding, I feel is great.
[00:15:06.560 --> 00:15:11.440] And then in terms of entrepreneur, I'd recommend following like Pete Codes.
[00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:18.080] He runs probably like the best bootstrapper newsletter I know, which is a high signal.io.
[00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:20.000] Well, Max, great recommendations.
[00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:22.320] Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Indiebites.
[00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:23.120] Thanks, James.
[00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:25.760] Thank you for listening to this episode of Indiebites.
[00:15:25.760 --> 00:15:27.200] I really appreciate you listening.
[00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:29.520] You can find all information in the show notes.
[00:15:29.520 --> 00:15:33.200] And thank you again to my sponsor, Email Oxpus, for making the show happen.