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Prompt 1: Context Setup

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Transcript section:
[00:00:01.280 --> 00:00:09.600] I wasn't making much money at all, but I'd got the first hit of wow, I can make money on my own.
[00:00:09.600 --> 00:00:15.680] So that feeling and that energy was probably spurring me on more than the actual opportunity itself.
[00:00:15.680 --> 00:00:21.200] Hello, and welcome back to Indiebites, the podcast robbing you stories of fellow indie hackers in 15 minutes or less.
[00:00:21.200 --> 00:00:30.960] And in this episode, I'm joined by Max Haining, who's the founder of 100 Days of No Code and more recently, 100 Days of AI, which are boot camps designed to help non-techies gain tech skills.
[00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:38.560] Max wanted to be an entrepreneur from a young age and started 100 Days of No Code as a challenge for himself to learn no-code tools during COVID.
[00:00:38.560 --> 00:00:45.520] But as more people joined in, he realised he could bootstrap the challenge into a learning platform, which he's now working on full-time.
[00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:49.600] But before we get into this chat, I would like to thank my sponsor, Email Octopus.
[00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:57.840] They are an email platform focused on affordability with a generous free pan and ease of use without all these bloated features that all of these email apps have.
[00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:06.160] So you can focus on what's important: shipping and growing your audience, which, if you're a regular listener, you will know is essential for growth in the early days.
[00:01:06.160 --> 00:01:14.400] So to get started with an email platform that just gets out of the way so you can focus on your marketing, where you can contact up to 2,500 people completely free.
[00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:17.680] Head to emailoctopus.com or hit the link in the show notes.
[00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:20.000] Let's get into this episode with Max Haning.
[00:01:20.320 --> 00:01:21.520] Max, welcome to the pod.
[00:01:21.520 --> 00:01:22.480] How are you doing?
[00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:23.600] Yeah, not too bad.
[00:01:23.600 --> 00:01:24.240] Thanks for having me.
[00:01:24.240 --> 00:01:26.320] I'm excited to chat with things.
[00:01:26.320 --> 00:01:29.200] Bootstrapped Solo Foundry stuff and indie hacking.
[00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:31.440] So I don't know much about your background, Max.
[00:01:31.520 --> 00:01:36.400] I usually like to sort of set the scene to see what the roots of my guests are.
[00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:39.520] When they were younger, did you have plans to be entrepreneurial?
[00:01:39.520 --> 00:01:40.720] Was it in your family?
[00:01:40.720 --> 00:01:42.480] Were you doing anything when you were younger?
[00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:52.640] It definitely didn't run in the family, but it was something I was always somewhat intrigued by, and it was kind of a relief when I found out at about like 13 years old that I didn't need to like get a job.
[00:01:52.640 --> 00:02:01.000] And I think ever since then, I was kind of interested in working out ways to kind of build income streams on my own versus like from others.
[00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:03.320] So yeah, it's kind of always been an interest there.
[00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:09.000] What happened at 13 for you to realize that you didn't have to do a get a real job?
[00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:16.200] Yeah, I think it was one of those awful kind of business case studies that we were doing in like in like GCSEs.
[00:02:16.200 --> 00:02:23.800] And I don't know where the kind of the light bulb moment happened, but I was just like, oh gosh, so this is someone that owns a business.
[00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:26.040] They don't work for the business.
[00:02:26.200 --> 00:02:28.040] It was just this weird realization.
[00:02:28.040 --> 00:02:34.920] And it kind of just an unlock of a very freeing unlock almost of just like, cool, I can do something on my own, my own terms.
[00:02:34.920 --> 00:02:40.200] And obviously I wasn't thinking like that fully at that age, but it was just like a nice kind of realization.
[00:02:40.200 --> 00:02:42.040] What sort of life route were you going down?
[00:02:42.040 --> 00:02:53.800] After that realization, it was kind of a case of how can I try as many things to kind of taste test or like career test as many different things that I'm interested in to kind of understand what I'm good at, but also what excites me.
[00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:59.240] So that kind of involved just doing like loads of internships, loads of work experience, all those kind of things.
[00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:07.880] And then on a separate like track, I would just be like, okay, well, I know at some point in time I want to be able to build my own business or start something on my own.
[00:03:07.880 --> 00:03:11.080] So I need to build some form of skill set that will allow me to do that.
[00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:18.280] So I was kind of just like focused on anything that would give me the skills to put myself in the best position to like create a cool business.
[00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:27.160] And that looked like for me, you know, going to university, doing business at university, and also like joining all the classic entrepreneur society and all that kind of stuff.
[00:03:27.160 --> 00:03:31.640] So I was just kind of going all in on like trying to mix myself into that circle.
[00:03:31.640 --> 00:03:35.320] Okay, so entrepreneurship, you wanted to run a business, but you weren't too sure what it was going to be.
[00:03:35.320 --> 00:03:40.200] So you thought, let me just go down this education path and see where it might end up for you.
[00:03:40.200 --> 00:03:43.640] So when you were spat out at university, did you have this great business idea?
[00:03:43.640 --> 00:03:49.680] Did you want to go down this funding route, traditional business, or had you discovered indie hacking at this point?
[00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:55.280] Yeah, so my worldview at university was Mark Zuckerberg version of startup.
[00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:57.280] So you need to raise a bunch of money.
[00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:00.880] It needs to be this kind of epic like unicorn business.
[00:04:00.880 --> 00:04:15.360] That was kind of my only version of business that I had in my mind, which at the time I kind of almost felt was quite, let's say, burdensome or like crippling in the way of, wow, like I need to raise all this money to like start a business.
[00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:19.200] I need to do all these things to like create something on my own.
[00:04:19.200 --> 00:04:28.960] And I hadn't really realized that there was a lower barrier to entry and like a path that was less dependent on external factors at that point in time.
[00:04:28.960 --> 00:04:40.400] So it was really only when I was starting to think, oh gosh, what am I going to do post-university when I discovered Make a Mag, which was a magazine created by Anlaw.
[00:04:40.400 --> 00:04:42.000] And I found that it was the first moment.
[00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:47.120] I was like, wow, people are building businesses on their own without investment.
[00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:48.000] This is crazy.
[00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:59.120] And they're really cool and niche and exciting that lean into their like passions as kind of people versus like these epic mission statements that kind of startups generally have.
[00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:06.320] So when you discovered it, what did you start to build or potentially explore in terms of a business for you?
[00:05:06.320 --> 00:05:10.080] For me at that point in time, again, I was very starry-eyed.
[00:05:10.080 --> 00:05:11.680] I was very naive.
[00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:16.240] I was kind of the founder that hadn't really, or the wannabe founder in a way.
[00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:18.720] So I was just in full like consume mode.
[00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:22.000] I was in full, let's eat up as much material as I can.
[00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:23.920] Let's read as many case studies.
[00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:30.200] All the kind of the traps almost of the glamorization of building a business before you actually get into the weeds of it yourself.
[00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:37.400] So I went into kind of full consumption mode at that point in time and was just being very inspired by the people that were actually doing stuff.
[00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:38.520] That's interesting.
[00:05:38.520 --> 00:05:40.440] Do you see that as like a trap you fell into?
[00:05:40.440 --> 00:05:48.120] And if you were going to go back to the start and give yourself advice, would it be just like try and ship something rather than absorbing all the content?
[00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:50.040] Or do you feel that kind of helped you in a way?
[00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:54.680] Yeah, I think it's all well and good me saying, oh, just like ship something, like get something out there.
[00:05:54.680 --> 00:06:04.040] But I think I just wasn't ready at that point in time because I didn't have either the skill set, i.e., the technical skill set, or the mindset or the confidence to actually do something on my own.
[00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:05.240] So I wasn't ready at that step.
[00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:07.560] So it probably was right for me to consume.
[00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:13.560] But obviously, looking back, you know, consumption can be a bit of a trap if it goes on too long.
[00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:16.760] Was 100 Days of No Code your first project then?
[00:06:16.760 --> 00:06:21.400] And I guess probably not thinking it was going to turn into what it was going to turn into?
[00:06:21.400 --> 00:06:22.280] Exactly, yeah.
[00:06:22.280 --> 00:06:26.200] So 100 Days of No Code was not meant to be a business at all.
[00:06:26.200 --> 00:06:28.520] And I had no intention of it being a business.
[00:06:28.520 --> 00:06:37.960] The only two things were kind of like more of a business lens that I took to starting 100 Days of No Code were the fact that, okay, so no code is a trend.
[00:06:37.960 --> 00:06:40.840] So people are going to want to learn to no-code.
[00:06:40.840 --> 00:06:42.360] So that was one thing I picked up.
[00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:47.080] And then two, I'd seen kind of the success of other challenges like 100 Days of Code.
[00:06:47.080 --> 00:06:49.400] Okay, so other people do these challenges.
[00:06:49.400 --> 00:06:52.600] There's some form of validation around this project.
[00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:56.840] But I was never thinking about it through the lens of I could make money through this project.
[00:06:56.840 --> 00:07:11.800] It was just those two opportunistic things I saw that then gave me more reason to go, cool, I'm going to start my learning journey in no-code by saying to everyone, hey, learning the skill for 100 days during lockdown when we've all got a bit of spare time.
[00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:13.400] Does anyone want to join me?
[00:07:13.400 --> 00:07:23.360] And in that moment of time, it was kind of became clearer, especially from sort of day 25 onwards, that other people wanted to join that kind of that thing or learn that skill themselves as well.
[00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:25.920] So, talk to me about how you structured this for yourself.
[00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:31.680] Yeah, so it was essentially the most unstructured thing you could possibly imagine.
[00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:37.120] It was very much me just going, okay, so I've got a hundred days in front of me.
[00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:48.160] The only thing that I know I'm going to do in these hundred days is learn something for 30 minutes a day, share the thing I learned on Twitter, and then cheer other people on who are doing the challenge.
[00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:50.560] But actually, I didn't know what the hell I was meant to be learning.
[00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:55.600] I had no understanding really of like what tools I should be learning, what projects I should be building.
[00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:57.520] So, it was a very scattergun approach.
[00:07:57.520 --> 00:08:10.400] So, what I did was essentially like looked up what other people were doing in no-code and also looked up the best courses and then basically just like melded them together in one kind of very coggled together 100-day track.
[00:08:10.400 --> 00:08:11.040] And that was it.
[00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:12.480] So, yeah, there was no planning, really.
[00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:15.120] It was very spontaneous day by day.
[00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:21.440] So, fill me in on the gaps of taking this, you yourself, you're learning no-code.
[00:08:21.440 --> 00:08:24.160] Did you spit out any cool projects from this, by the way?
[00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:28.560] Did you actually like make stuff that could have turned into a business?
[00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:35.600] And then fill in the gaps for me in terms of taking this from something you did to boot camp, course, community.
[00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:39.040] 100 days with NoCode was always a means for learning for me.
[00:08:39.040 --> 00:08:41.760] So, it was never built as a business.
[00:08:41.760 --> 00:08:45.680] And that was why each day was meant to be very actionable.
[00:08:45.680 --> 00:08:49.920] And I kind of designed it that way for me to learn in the best ways.
[00:08:49.920 --> 00:08:58.560] So, every day I was meant to ship some form of like project, whether that was shipping a login page or shipping an actual full fully pledged project.
[00:08:58.560 --> 00:09:09.160] And for me, that one project was a positivity map during COVID, so it was kind of mapping all the positive acts of goodwill and good gesture, whatever in my community at that time.
[00:09:09.160 --> 00:09:17.320] And I built that on Bubble so people could kind of crowdsource positivity in and amongst like a time where obviously not many good things were happening.
[00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:23.000] So, that was my first project again, not monetizable, just pure like outlet for learning.
[00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:31.960] Yeah, and then essentially, how did this complete mess go from that to kind of more of a business?
[00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:43.080] And really, kind of the way I look at it is we went from a hashtag with no curriculum to a hashtag that had a bit of community to a hashtag that had community and then it had courses and education.
[00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:46.040] And that's kind of the transition that it kind of made over time.
[00:09:46.040 --> 00:09:55.160] And how did you start to build out that community and then the curriculum and getting people to pay you for this?
[00:09:55.480 --> 00:10:00.680] It essentially was very guided by my lack of knowledge at the time.
[00:10:00.680 --> 00:10:09.000] And what I mean by that is I realized that there was a need or like a sense where people wanted to learn to no code because they were joining the hashtag with me.
[00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:15.800] The problem I had was that I wasn't in a position to teach people, I didn't have that knowledge because I was on the hundred days myself.
[00:10:15.800 --> 00:10:25.560] So, what I did instead of creating a course because I couldn't, I didn't have the knowledge, was I created some form of log community where people could share their learning as they're going.
[00:10:25.560 --> 00:10:29.880] And then, through that community, that's when I first started monetizing what we were doing.
[00:10:29.880 --> 00:10:35.560] Because what I'd do is I'd bring them into a Slack community, just a bit like Raman Club.
[00:10:35.560 --> 00:10:44.280] I would charge people £10 a month so they could access community, peer groups, discounts, and essentially expert workshops.
[00:10:44.280 --> 00:10:47.840] Again, not by me, but by me bringing experts into play.
[00:10:48.160 --> 00:10:55.200] And then that was kind of our first monetization before I got to a point where I could start teaching people.
[00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:59.440] And that's kind of where the educational piece, the courses piece, comes into play.
[00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:02.960] How much money were you making as this was growing?
[00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:13.920] And at this point, were you thinking, right, this is my business opportunity now where I can solo bootstrap something into a nice cool business for myself?
[00:11:13.920 --> 00:11:24.240] So at this point, I wasn't making much money at all, but I'd got the first hit of wow, like I can make money on my own.
[00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:30.160] So that feeling and that energy was probably spurring me on more than the actual opportunity itself.
[00:11:30.160 --> 00:11:39.200] Because ultimately, £10 a month charging people is not really going to work as a business unless you have a good number of people.
[00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:51.520] So from a business point of view, it wasn't great, but from a wow, I can make money on my own point of view, it was like the fuel to my fire to actually continue this thing.
[00:11:51.520 --> 00:11:55.040] So it was probably making like £500 a month.
[00:11:55.040 --> 00:12:03.520] And so talk to you about how that then grew into something that now is a business that over 21,000 people have taken the course.
[00:12:03.520 --> 00:12:07.920] You've now got five people working with you and it's like a good, solid business.
[00:12:07.920 --> 00:12:12.640] I think as all bootstrap companies, it's been a very messy journey.
[00:12:12.640 --> 00:12:21.040] So it's kind of been, oh, okay, right, well, £10 a month, that's interesting, but like, that's not necessarily going to pay someone's rent.
[00:12:21.040 --> 00:12:23.280] So, how do we make more money?
[00:12:23.280 --> 00:12:25.120] Okay, well, let's look around.
[00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:26.400] There's coding boot camps.
[00:12:26.400 --> 00:12:29.280] What if there were boot camps, but for no code?
[00:12:29.280 --> 00:12:36.280] Okay, well, coding boot camps, they charge at least, you know, 500, if not £1,000 per boot camp.
[00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:49.720] And at the time, the whole co-op-based course kind of thing was popping off around 2021, where you saw Ondeck, you saw Ali Abdao's course, you saw all these other kind of creators building these co-op-based courses.
[00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:50.200] Great.
[00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:57.560] That looks like a more or easier way to make a higher ticket or product that would more likely pay the rent.
[00:12:57.560 --> 00:13:05.240] So we started doing those, and we were kind of charging £500 with 20 to 25 people per boot camp.
[00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:06.200] And that was scrappy.
[00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:12.280] That was like a grind to get acquisition for people to pay £500 on a boot camp.
[00:13:12.280 --> 00:13:17.000] But it was the first signs of like, okay, so this unlocks a little bit more money.
[00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:20.760] So then you just start layering different monetization streams on top of each other.
[00:13:20.760 --> 00:13:24.520] And then it's like, oh, okay, well, these two together are not too bad.
[00:13:24.520 --> 00:13:26.360] What else could we do on top of this?
[00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:40.040] And then from that point onwards, we have kind of lent into our challenge-based learning products that we keep entirely free, but we monetize from partners with tools in the ecosystem.
[00:13:40.040 --> 00:13:53.320] So in terms of distribution marketing, what sort of things have you done over the years, Max, to actually get people to discover 100 days of no code and take the course and your other learning products?
[00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:56.280] I think there's probably three things that I've done.
[00:13:56.280 --> 00:14:01.240] And they're more zero-to-one things and they're scrappy, and that's kind of what I'm good at.
[00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:04.040] The first one is obvious, personal audience building.
[00:14:04.040 --> 00:14:07.720] The second one is kind of baked into our products.
[00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:17.280] So, essentially, anyone that signs up to 100 days or 100-day programs, part of the flywheel is that they share their learning every day using the hashtag.
[00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:31.040] So, and we bake that in because the marketing is also part of the learning process because we believe that people that share their learning make their skills visible, and making your skills visible increases the opportunities that you will have.
[00:14:31.040 --> 00:14:36.480] So, we've kind of combined our marketing flywheel with our learning experience.
[00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:45.120] And then, the third thing that has been really helpful for us, and that I'm sure lots of other kind of indie hackers are doing and I've seen do is growth tools.
[00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:54.080] So, we have launched a series of adjacent products that add value to audiences that we care about that we believe we can also pull into our own programs.
[00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:57.040] So, one example of this is nocodexamples.com.
[00:14:57.040 --> 00:15:00.560] We launched from Product Hunt in 2022, August.
[00:15:00.640 --> 00:15:03.920] We got 3,000 sign-ups as a result from that launch.
[00:15:03.920 --> 00:15:10.160] And then, of those 3,000 people, we drove at least 1,000 of those into our 100-day programmes.
[00:15:10.800 --> 00:15:16.720] I end every episode on three recommendations: a book, a podcast, and an indie hacker.
[00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:17.840] What have you got for me?
[00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:23.280] Get Together, my first Milliam, and Mark Louis on Twitter.
[00:15:23.280 --> 00:15:25.360] Max, fantastic recommendations, mate.
[00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:27.760] Thank you so much for coming on the pod.
[00:15:27.760 --> 00:15:28.880] Yeah, thanks for having me.
[00:15:28.880 --> 00:15:29.680] It's been super fun.
[00:15:29.680 --> 00:15:30.480] Thanks so much.
[00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:37.760] Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Indiebites with Max Haining, and a thank you to my sponsor, Email Octopus, for making the show happen.
[00:15:37.760 --> 00:15:40.080] All the links and references are in the show notes.
[00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:41.120] That's all from me.
[00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:42.800] See you next week.

Prompt 2: Key Takeaways

Now please extract the key takeaways from the transcript content I provided.

Extract the most important key takeaways from this part of the conversation. Use a single sentence statement (the key takeaway) rather than milquetoast descriptions like "the hosts discuss...". 

Limit the key takeaways to a maximum of 3. The key takeaways should be insightful and knowledge-additive. 

IMPORTANT: Return ONLY valid JSON, no explanations or markdown. Ensure:
- All strings are properly quoted and escaped
- No trailing commas
- All braces and brackets are balanced
Format: {"key_takeaways": ["takeaway 1", "takeaway 2"]}

Prompt 3: Segments

Now identify 2-4 distinct topical segments from this part of the conversation.

For each segment, identify:
- Descriptive title (3-6 words)  
- START timestamp when this topic begins (HH:MM:SS format)
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Most important Key takeaway from that segment. Key takeaway must be specific and knowledge-additive.
- Brief summary of the discussion

IMPORTANT: The timestamp should mark when the topic/segment STARTS, not a range. Look for topic transitions and conversation shifts.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted, no trailing commas:
{
  "segments": [
    {
      "segment_title": "Topic Discussion", 
      "timestamp": "01:15:30",
      "key_takeaway": "main point from this segment",
      "segment_summary": "brief description of what was discussed"
    }
  ]
}

Timestamp format: HH:MM:SS (e.g., 00:05:30, 01:22:45) marking the START of each segment.

Prompt 4: Media Mentions

Now scan the transcript content I provided for ACTUAL mentions of specific media titles:

Find explicit mentions of:
- Books (with specific titles)
- Movies (with specific titles)  
- TV Shows (with specific titles)
- Music/Songs (with specific titles)

DO NOT include:
- Websites, URLs, or web services
- Other podcasts or podcast names

IMPORTANT: 
- Only include items explicitly mentioned by name. Do not invent titles.
- Valid categories are: "Book", "Movie", "TV Show", "Music"
- Include the exact phrase where each item was mentioned
- Find the nearest proximate timestamp where it appears in the conversation
- THE TIMESTAMP OF THE MEDIA MENTION IS IMPORTANT - DO NOT INVENT TIMESTAMPS AND DO NOT MISATTRIBUTE TIMESTAMPS
- Double check that the timestamp is accurate - a timestamp will NEVER be greater than the total length of the audio
- Timestamps are given as ranges, e.g. 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.720. Use the EARLIER of the 2 timestamps in the range.

Return ONLY valid JSON. Ensure all strings are properly quoted and escaped, no trailing commas:
{
  "media_mentions": [
    {
      "title": "Exact Title as Mentioned",
      "category": "Book",
      "author_artist": "N/A",
      "context": "Brief context of why it was mentioned",
      "context_phrase": "The exact sentence or phrase where it was mentioned",
      "timestamp": "estimated time like 01:15:30"
    }
  ]
}

If no media is mentioned, return: {"media_mentions": []}

Full Transcript

[00:00:01.280 --> 00:00:09.600] I wasn't making much money at all, but I'd got the first hit of wow, I can make money on my own.
[00:00:09.600 --> 00:00:15.680] So that feeling and that energy was probably spurring me on more than the actual opportunity itself.
[00:00:15.680 --> 00:00:21.200] Hello, and welcome back to Indiebites, the podcast robbing you stories of fellow indie hackers in 15 minutes or less.
[00:00:21.200 --> 00:00:30.960] And in this episode, I'm joined by Max Haining, who's the founder of 100 Days of No Code and more recently, 100 Days of AI, which are boot camps designed to help non-techies gain tech skills.
[00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:38.560] Max wanted to be an entrepreneur from a young age and started 100 Days of No Code as a challenge for himself to learn no-code tools during COVID.
[00:00:38.560 --> 00:00:45.520] But as more people joined in, he realised he could bootstrap the challenge into a learning platform, which he's now working on full-time.
[00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:49.600] But before we get into this chat, I would like to thank my sponsor, Email Octopus.
[00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:57.840] They are an email platform focused on affordability with a generous free pan and ease of use without all these bloated features that all of these email apps have.
[00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:06.160] So you can focus on what's important: shipping and growing your audience, which, if you're a regular listener, you will know is essential for growth in the early days.
[00:01:06.160 --> 00:01:14.400] So to get started with an email platform that just gets out of the way so you can focus on your marketing, where you can contact up to 2,500 people completely free.
[00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:17.680] Head to emailoctopus.com or hit the link in the show notes.
[00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:20.000] Let's get into this episode with Max Haning.
[00:01:20.320 --> 00:01:21.520] Max, welcome to the pod.
[00:01:21.520 --> 00:01:22.480] How are you doing?
[00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:23.600] Yeah, not too bad.
[00:01:23.600 --> 00:01:24.240] Thanks for having me.
[00:01:24.240 --> 00:01:26.320] I'm excited to chat with things.
[00:01:26.320 --> 00:01:29.200] Bootstrapped Solo Foundry stuff and indie hacking.
[00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:31.440] So I don't know much about your background, Max.
[00:01:31.520 --> 00:01:36.400] I usually like to sort of set the scene to see what the roots of my guests are.
[00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:39.520] When they were younger, did you have plans to be entrepreneurial?
[00:01:39.520 --> 00:01:40.720] Was it in your family?
[00:01:40.720 --> 00:01:42.480] Were you doing anything when you were younger?
[00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:52.640] It definitely didn't run in the family, but it was something I was always somewhat intrigued by, and it was kind of a relief when I found out at about like 13 years old that I didn't need to like get a job.
[00:01:52.640 --> 00:02:01.000] And I think ever since then, I was kind of interested in working out ways to kind of build income streams on my own versus like from others.
[00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:03.320] So yeah, it's kind of always been an interest there.
[00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:09.000] What happened at 13 for you to realize that you didn't have to do a get a real job?
[00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:16.200] Yeah, I think it was one of those awful kind of business case studies that we were doing in like in like GCSEs.
[00:02:16.200 --> 00:02:23.800] And I don't know where the kind of the light bulb moment happened, but I was just like, oh gosh, so this is someone that owns a business.
[00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:26.040] They don't work for the business.
[00:02:26.200 --> 00:02:28.040] It was just this weird realization.
[00:02:28.040 --> 00:02:34.920] And it kind of just an unlock of a very freeing unlock almost of just like, cool, I can do something on my own, my own terms.
[00:02:34.920 --> 00:02:40.200] And obviously I wasn't thinking like that fully at that age, but it was just like a nice kind of realization.
[00:02:40.200 --> 00:02:42.040] What sort of life route were you going down?
[00:02:42.040 --> 00:02:53.800] After that realization, it was kind of a case of how can I try as many things to kind of taste test or like career test as many different things that I'm interested in to kind of understand what I'm good at, but also what excites me.
[00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:59.240] So that kind of involved just doing like loads of internships, loads of work experience, all those kind of things.
[00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:07.880] And then on a separate like track, I would just be like, okay, well, I know at some point in time I want to be able to build my own business or start something on my own.
[00:03:07.880 --> 00:03:11.080] So I need to build some form of skill set that will allow me to do that.
[00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:18.280] So I was kind of just like focused on anything that would give me the skills to put myself in the best position to like create a cool business.
[00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:27.160] And that looked like for me, you know, going to university, doing business at university, and also like joining all the classic entrepreneur society and all that kind of stuff.
[00:03:27.160 --> 00:03:31.640] So I was just kind of going all in on like trying to mix myself into that circle.
[00:03:31.640 --> 00:03:35.320] Okay, so entrepreneurship, you wanted to run a business, but you weren't too sure what it was going to be.
[00:03:35.320 --> 00:03:40.200] So you thought, let me just go down this education path and see where it might end up for you.
[00:03:40.200 --> 00:03:43.640] So when you were spat out at university, did you have this great business idea?
[00:03:43.640 --> 00:03:49.680] Did you want to go down this funding route, traditional business, or had you discovered indie hacking at this point?
[00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:55.280] Yeah, so my worldview at university was Mark Zuckerberg version of startup.
[00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:57.280] So you need to raise a bunch of money.
[00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:00.880] It needs to be this kind of epic like unicorn business.
[00:04:00.880 --> 00:04:15.360] That was kind of my only version of business that I had in my mind, which at the time I kind of almost felt was quite, let's say, burdensome or like crippling in the way of, wow, like I need to raise all this money to like start a business.
[00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:19.200] I need to do all these things to like create something on my own.
[00:04:19.200 --> 00:04:28.960] And I hadn't really realized that there was a lower barrier to entry and like a path that was less dependent on external factors at that point in time.
[00:04:28.960 --> 00:04:40.400] So it was really only when I was starting to think, oh gosh, what am I going to do post-university when I discovered Make a Mag, which was a magazine created by Anlaw.
[00:04:40.400 --> 00:04:42.000] And I found that it was the first moment.
[00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:47.120] I was like, wow, people are building businesses on their own without investment.
[00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:48.000] This is crazy.
[00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:59.120] And they're really cool and niche and exciting that lean into their like passions as kind of people versus like these epic mission statements that kind of startups generally have.
[00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:06.320] So when you discovered it, what did you start to build or potentially explore in terms of a business for you?
[00:05:06.320 --> 00:05:10.080] For me at that point in time, again, I was very starry-eyed.
[00:05:10.080 --> 00:05:11.680] I was very naive.
[00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:16.240] I was kind of the founder that hadn't really, or the wannabe founder in a way.
[00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:18.720] So I was just in full like consume mode.
[00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:22.000] I was in full, let's eat up as much material as I can.
[00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:23.920] Let's read as many case studies.
[00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:30.200] All the kind of the traps almost of the glamorization of building a business before you actually get into the weeds of it yourself.
[00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:37.400] So I went into kind of full consumption mode at that point in time and was just being very inspired by the people that were actually doing stuff.
[00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:38.520] That's interesting.
[00:05:38.520 --> 00:05:40.440] Do you see that as like a trap you fell into?
[00:05:40.440 --> 00:05:48.120] And if you were going to go back to the start and give yourself advice, would it be just like try and ship something rather than absorbing all the content?
[00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:50.040] Or do you feel that kind of helped you in a way?
[00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:54.680] Yeah, I think it's all well and good me saying, oh, just like ship something, like get something out there.
[00:05:54.680 --> 00:06:04.040] But I think I just wasn't ready at that point in time because I didn't have either the skill set, i.e., the technical skill set, or the mindset or the confidence to actually do something on my own.
[00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:05.240] So I wasn't ready at that step.
[00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:07.560] So it probably was right for me to consume.
[00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:13.560] But obviously, looking back, you know, consumption can be a bit of a trap if it goes on too long.
[00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:16.760] Was 100 Days of No Code your first project then?
[00:06:16.760 --> 00:06:21.400] And I guess probably not thinking it was going to turn into what it was going to turn into?
[00:06:21.400 --> 00:06:22.280] Exactly, yeah.
[00:06:22.280 --> 00:06:26.200] So 100 Days of No Code was not meant to be a business at all.
[00:06:26.200 --> 00:06:28.520] And I had no intention of it being a business.
[00:06:28.520 --> 00:06:37.960] The only two things were kind of like more of a business lens that I took to starting 100 Days of No Code were the fact that, okay, so no code is a trend.
[00:06:37.960 --> 00:06:40.840] So people are going to want to learn to no-code.
[00:06:40.840 --> 00:06:42.360] So that was one thing I picked up.
[00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:47.080] And then two, I'd seen kind of the success of other challenges like 100 Days of Code.
[00:06:47.080 --> 00:06:49.400] Okay, so other people do these challenges.
[00:06:49.400 --> 00:06:52.600] There's some form of validation around this project.
[00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:56.840] But I was never thinking about it through the lens of I could make money through this project.
[00:06:56.840 --> 00:07:11.800] It was just those two opportunistic things I saw that then gave me more reason to go, cool, I'm going to start my learning journey in no-code by saying to everyone, hey, learning the skill for 100 days during lockdown when we've all got a bit of spare time.
[00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:13.400] Does anyone want to join me?
[00:07:13.400 --> 00:07:23.360] And in that moment of time, it was kind of became clearer, especially from sort of day 25 onwards, that other people wanted to join that kind of that thing or learn that skill themselves as well.
[00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:25.920] So, talk to me about how you structured this for yourself.
[00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:31.680] Yeah, so it was essentially the most unstructured thing you could possibly imagine.
[00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:37.120] It was very much me just going, okay, so I've got a hundred days in front of me.
[00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:48.160] The only thing that I know I'm going to do in these hundred days is learn something for 30 minutes a day, share the thing I learned on Twitter, and then cheer other people on who are doing the challenge.
[00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:50.560] But actually, I didn't know what the hell I was meant to be learning.
[00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:55.600] I had no understanding really of like what tools I should be learning, what projects I should be building.
[00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:57.520] So, it was a very scattergun approach.
[00:07:57.520 --> 00:08:10.400] So, what I did was essentially like looked up what other people were doing in no-code and also looked up the best courses and then basically just like melded them together in one kind of very coggled together 100-day track.
[00:08:10.400 --> 00:08:11.040] And that was it.
[00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:12.480] So, yeah, there was no planning, really.
[00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:15.120] It was very spontaneous day by day.
[00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:21.440] So, fill me in on the gaps of taking this, you yourself, you're learning no-code.
[00:08:21.440 --> 00:08:24.160] Did you spit out any cool projects from this, by the way?
[00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:28.560] Did you actually like make stuff that could have turned into a business?
[00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:35.600] And then fill in the gaps for me in terms of taking this from something you did to boot camp, course, community.
[00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:39.040] 100 days with NoCode was always a means for learning for me.
[00:08:39.040 --> 00:08:41.760] So, it was never built as a business.
[00:08:41.760 --> 00:08:45.680] And that was why each day was meant to be very actionable.
[00:08:45.680 --> 00:08:49.920] And I kind of designed it that way for me to learn in the best ways.
[00:08:49.920 --> 00:08:58.560] So, every day I was meant to ship some form of like project, whether that was shipping a login page or shipping an actual full fully pledged project.
[00:08:58.560 --> 00:09:09.160] And for me, that one project was a positivity map during COVID, so it was kind of mapping all the positive acts of goodwill and good gesture, whatever in my community at that time.
[00:09:09.160 --> 00:09:17.320] And I built that on Bubble so people could kind of crowdsource positivity in and amongst like a time where obviously not many good things were happening.
[00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:23.000] So, that was my first project again, not monetizable, just pure like outlet for learning.
[00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:31.960] Yeah, and then essentially, how did this complete mess go from that to kind of more of a business?
[00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:43.080] And really, kind of the way I look at it is we went from a hashtag with no curriculum to a hashtag that had a bit of community to a hashtag that had community and then it had courses and education.
[00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:46.040] And that's kind of the transition that it kind of made over time.
[00:09:46.040 --> 00:09:55.160] And how did you start to build out that community and then the curriculum and getting people to pay you for this?
[00:09:55.480 --> 00:10:00.680] It essentially was very guided by my lack of knowledge at the time.
[00:10:00.680 --> 00:10:09.000] And what I mean by that is I realized that there was a need or like a sense where people wanted to learn to no code because they were joining the hashtag with me.
[00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:15.800] The problem I had was that I wasn't in a position to teach people, I didn't have that knowledge because I was on the hundred days myself.
[00:10:15.800 --> 00:10:25.560] So, what I did instead of creating a course because I couldn't, I didn't have the knowledge, was I created some form of log community where people could share their learning as they're going.
[00:10:25.560 --> 00:10:29.880] And then, through that community, that's when I first started monetizing what we were doing.
[00:10:29.880 --> 00:10:35.560] Because what I'd do is I'd bring them into a Slack community, just a bit like Raman Club.
[00:10:35.560 --> 00:10:44.280] I would charge people £10 a month so they could access community, peer groups, discounts, and essentially expert workshops.
[00:10:44.280 --> 00:10:47.840] Again, not by me, but by me bringing experts into play.
[00:10:48.160 --> 00:10:55.200] And then that was kind of our first monetization before I got to a point where I could start teaching people.
[00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:59.440] And that's kind of where the educational piece, the courses piece, comes into play.
[00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:02.960] How much money were you making as this was growing?
[00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:13.920] And at this point, were you thinking, right, this is my business opportunity now where I can solo bootstrap something into a nice cool business for myself?
[00:11:13.920 --> 00:11:24.240] So at this point, I wasn't making much money at all, but I'd got the first hit of wow, like I can make money on my own.
[00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:30.160] So that feeling and that energy was probably spurring me on more than the actual opportunity itself.
[00:11:30.160 --> 00:11:39.200] Because ultimately, £10 a month charging people is not really going to work as a business unless you have a good number of people.
[00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:51.520] So from a business point of view, it wasn't great, but from a wow, I can make money on my own point of view, it was like the fuel to my fire to actually continue this thing.
[00:11:51.520 --> 00:11:55.040] So it was probably making like £500 a month.
[00:11:55.040 --> 00:12:03.520] And so talk to you about how that then grew into something that now is a business that over 21,000 people have taken the course.
[00:12:03.520 --> 00:12:07.920] You've now got five people working with you and it's like a good, solid business.
[00:12:07.920 --> 00:12:12.640] I think as all bootstrap companies, it's been a very messy journey.
[00:12:12.640 --> 00:12:21.040] So it's kind of been, oh, okay, right, well, £10 a month, that's interesting, but like, that's not necessarily going to pay someone's rent.
[00:12:21.040 --> 00:12:23.280] So, how do we make more money?
[00:12:23.280 --> 00:12:25.120] Okay, well, let's look around.
[00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:26.400] There's coding boot camps.
[00:12:26.400 --> 00:12:29.280] What if there were boot camps, but for no code?
[00:12:29.280 --> 00:12:36.280] Okay, well, coding boot camps, they charge at least, you know, 500, if not £1,000 per boot camp.
[00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:49.720] And at the time, the whole co-op-based course kind of thing was popping off around 2021, where you saw Ondeck, you saw Ali Abdao's course, you saw all these other kind of creators building these co-op-based courses.
[00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:50.200] Great.
[00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:57.560] That looks like a more or easier way to make a higher ticket or product that would more likely pay the rent.
[00:12:57.560 --> 00:13:05.240] So we started doing those, and we were kind of charging £500 with 20 to 25 people per boot camp.
[00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:06.200] And that was scrappy.
[00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:12.280] That was like a grind to get acquisition for people to pay £500 on a boot camp.
[00:13:12.280 --> 00:13:17.000] But it was the first signs of like, okay, so this unlocks a little bit more money.
[00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:20.760] So then you just start layering different monetization streams on top of each other.
[00:13:20.760 --> 00:13:24.520] And then it's like, oh, okay, well, these two together are not too bad.
[00:13:24.520 --> 00:13:26.360] What else could we do on top of this?
[00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:40.040] And then from that point onwards, we have kind of lent into our challenge-based learning products that we keep entirely free, but we monetize from partners with tools in the ecosystem.
[00:13:40.040 --> 00:13:53.320] So in terms of distribution marketing, what sort of things have you done over the years, Max, to actually get people to discover 100 days of no code and take the course and your other learning products?
[00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:56.280] I think there's probably three things that I've done.
[00:13:56.280 --> 00:14:01.240] And they're more zero-to-one things and they're scrappy, and that's kind of what I'm good at.
[00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:04.040] The first one is obvious, personal audience building.
[00:14:04.040 --> 00:14:07.720] The second one is kind of baked into our products.
[00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:17.280] So, essentially, anyone that signs up to 100 days or 100-day programs, part of the flywheel is that they share their learning every day using the hashtag.
[00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:31.040] So, and we bake that in because the marketing is also part of the learning process because we believe that people that share their learning make their skills visible, and making your skills visible increases the opportunities that you will have.
[00:14:31.040 --> 00:14:36.480] So, we've kind of combined our marketing flywheel with our learning experience.
[00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:45.120] And then, the third thing that has been really helpful for us, and that I'm sure lots of other kind of indie hackers are doing and I've seen do is growth tools.
[00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:54.080] So, we have launched a series of adjacent products that add value to audiences that we care about that we believe we can also pull into our own programs.
[00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:57.040] So, one example of this is nocodexamples.com.
[00:14:57.040 --> 00:15:00.560] We launched from Product Hunt in 2022, August.
[00:15:00.640 --> 00:15:03.920] We got 3,000 sign-ups as a result from that launch.
[00:15:03.920 --> 00:15:10.160] And then, of those 3,000 people, we drove at least 1,000 of those into our 100-day programmes.
[00:15:10.800 --> 00:15:16.720] I end every episode on three recommendations: a book, a podcast, and an indie hacker.
[00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:17.840] What have you got for me?
[00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:23.280] Get Together, my first Milliam, and Mark Louis on Twitter.
[00:15:23.280 --> 00:15:25.360] Max, fantastic recommendations, mate.
[00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:27.760] Thank you so much for coming on the pod.
[00:15:27.760 --> 00:15:28.880] Yeah, thanks for having me.
[00:15:28.880 --> 00:15:29.680] It's been super fun.
[00:15:29.680 --> 00:15:30.480] Thanks so much.
[00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:37.760] Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Indiebites with Max Haining, and a thank you to my sponsor, Email Octopus, for making the show happen.
[00:15:37.760 --> 00:15:40.080] All the links and references are in the show notes.
[00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:41.120] That's all from me.
[00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:42.800] See you next week.