Shawn Ryan Show

#260 Dale Hanson - Why MACV-SOG Had an 85% Casualty Rate and 1-in-4000 Odds

December 8, 2025

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  • Dale Hanson's character was fundamentally shaped by three early life events: his conversion to Christianity at age five, his commitment to holistic self-improvement based on Luke (2:52), and surviving a near-fatal accidental shooting at age 13, which instilled decision-making under pressure. 
  • The extreme danger of MACV-SOG missions was quantified by a briefing that stated 85% of the incoming class would be dead within three months, equating to odds of survival around one in 4,000 for a year. 
  • Hanson's first SOG mission involved successfully locating the enemy artillery positions bombarding the Ben Het outpost, leading to a massive B-52 strike that ended the siege, demonstrating the critical intelligence value of deep reconnaissance. 
  • Dale Hanson's Chinese mercenary counterparts gave him the name "Kambao Yu Chin," meaning 'eternal life, never die,' which they would write on his back for divine protection during missions. 
  • A highly sensitive reconnaissance mission for the Australians involved locating the COSFEN headquarters hidden in a rubber plantation, complicated by infiltration and corruption among French and South Vietnamese personnel. 
  • The Lima 50 mission in Cambodia resulted in the capture of crucial intelligence from two high-ranking Chinese colonels, including names of soldiers who self-wounded to avoid the siege at Ben Het, leading to the subsequent release of the arrested Colonel Roe and his staff. 
  • Dale Hanson experienced a significant cultural shock upon returning from Vietnam, noting that veterans were largely ignored or treated with dissatisfaction compared to WWII veterans. 
  • Hanson and a colleague invented the 'Dhoni ladder' for rappelling/extraction, which allowed wounded personnel to be secured and lifted like a stretcher, demonstrating SOG innovation. 
  • After leaving the police force due to political pressure following a justified shooting, Hanson successfully transitioned into a career as a highly sought-after sculptor, finding personal gratification in transforming worthless material into valuable art. 

Segments

Host Welcome and Guest Introduction
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(00:00:50)
  • Key Takeaway: Dale Hanson is a highly decorated MACV-SOG veteran, author, and polymath whose service motivated the host’s own military career.
  • Summary: Shawn Ryan welcomed Dale Hanson, a Green Beret who served three tours in MACV-SOG, noting that the Vietnam era inspired his own enlistment. Hanson is also an accomplished sculptor, MENSA member, martial artist, and author of ‘Born Twice: Memoir of a Special Forces SOG Warrior.’ The host acknowledged Hanson came highly recommended by mutual friend John Stryker Meyer.
Hanson’s Early Life and Alaska Move
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(00:04:16)
  • Key Takeaway: Hanson grew up in extreme cold in Northern Minnesota on a farm without electricity or running water before moving to Alaska post-war.
  • Summary: Hanson clarified he grew up in the northernmost town in continental United States, Minnesota, living simply on a farm with a well. His father was a WWII veteran who fought in major Pacific battles including Iwo Jima. The family eventually moved to International Falls for work, and Hanson later moved to Alaska at his wife’s urging after the war.
Country’s Direction and Spiritual Moorings
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(00:08:36)
  • Key Takeaway: Hanson believes the country is incrementally losing its founding Judeo-Christian moorings, which he views as the essential glue holding the nation together.
  • Summary: Hanson expressed concern that the country is dissolving piece by piece, moving away from the Judeo-Christian ethic upon which it was founded. He cited the Declaration’s reference to being endowed by a Creator as a foundational principle now disappearing from media narratives. He suggested that only a national revival can save America from becoming socialist in its major cities.
Foundational Character Building Events
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(00:11:18)
  • Key Takeaway: Hanson identifies three formative events: conversion at age five, adopting the four-part growth model from Luke (2:52), and surviving a self-inflicted gunshot wound at age 13.
  • Summary: At age five, Hanson became a Christian after a literal interpretation of a sermon metaphor about diving off a bridge, which caused him significant distress until clarified. Around age 13, he adopted Jesus’s growth in wisdom, stature, favor with God, and man as a model for being well-rounded physically, intellectually, socially, and spiritually. The third event was surviving a self-inflicted gunshot wound at 13, which taught him to make critical decisions under extreme pressure.
Decision to Enlist in Special Forces
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(00:28:14)
  • Key Takeaway: While a theology student, Hanson enlisted to fight communism, specifically seeking Special Forces training because he wanted to be ’the best there is.'
  • Summary: Hanson was a ministerial student who felt compelled to serve after witnessing the atrocities of communism firsthand, despite having a ministerial deferment. He enlisted specifically to try out for Special Forces, believing it was the most worthwhile program available. He performed well in basic training and AIT before taking the rigorous Special Forces qualification test.
Passing the Special Forces Test
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(00:32:59)
  • Key Takeaway: The Special Forces qualification test at Camp Crockett required candidates to simultaneously manage oral, literal, and visual assessments, resulting in only three passes out of 600 candidates.
  • Summary: The test involved dividing attention across three simultaneous modalities: oral, literal reading, and visual scenarios, often requiring immediate intuitive answers. Hanson noted that the environment at Camp Crockett included recruits engaging in substance abuse by inhaling shoe polish. Hanson, along with two others, passed this intense evaluation designed to test decision-making under cognitive overload.
SOG Casualty Rate Briefing
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(00:35:46)
  • Key Takeaway: A major informed Hanson’s class that 85% of them would be killed within three months of deployment to MACV-SOG in Vietnam.
  • Summary: The training included a lecture where a major explicitly stated that graduates would be sent directly to SOG, and 85% would die within three months. Hanson calculated this meant the odds of surviving a year in SOG at that time were approximately one in 4,000. Despite this grim prognosis, Hanson and his peers were eager to deploy, viewing it as the ultimate service.
First Recon Mission Near Ben Het
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(00:57:00)
  • Key Takeaway: Hanson’s first mission, with team leader Norm Dhoney, was a reconnaissance operation that located the enemy artillery batteries bombarding the besieged Ben Het outpost.
  • Summary: Hanson felt anxious but ready for his first mission, led by the highly decorated Norm Dhoney, who served as a mentor. The team’s motto was to ‘break contact and continue mission’ rather than disengage entirely. They located fresh enemy footprints and discovered scores of artillery pieces hidden near a riverbed, providing precise intelligence that led to the base being hit by 100 B-52s, ending the siege.
Hanson’s Chinese Name and Meaning
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(01:10:44)
  • Key Takeaway: Dale Hanson’s name, ‘Hansen,’ was rendered by his Chinese counterparts as ‘Han Sun,’ and they added the moniker ‘Kambao Yu Chin,’ meaning ’never die,’ written on his back for protection.
  • Summary: The Chinese mercenaries gave Dale Hanson the name ‘Han Sun’ and the auspicious title ‘Kambao Yu Chin’ (never die). They inscribed this on his back above his collar, believing their God would look for him on missions. Hanson noted the close bond he shared with these Chinese counterparts.
Australian Mission Briefing
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(01:13:56)
  • Key Takeaway: A SOG team was tasked by an Australian Major to locate the COSFEN headquarters believed to be inside a French rubber plantation due to infiltration and bribery.
  • Summary: The mission was necessitated because the Australian headquarters was heavily infiltrated by double agents, preventing the Major from initiating action internally. The communists were hiding their headquarters in a rubber plantation, which the French knew about to protect the area from bombing. The SOG team was instructed to report intelligence only to that specific Australian Major.
Infiltration and Evasion
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(01:19:04)
  • Key Takeaway: During infiltration, Hanson crawled within breath distance of an enemy sentry, relying on a sudden jet takeoff to mask the sound required for his necessary retreat.
  • Summary: The area was heavily trapped, forcing slow, cautious movement. Hanson detected the sentry by smell before seeing him, making extraction backward extremely difficult. A prayer for cover was answered immediately by a jet taking off miles away, allowing him to back out quietly.
LZ Selection and Enemy Encounter
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(01:21:35)
  • Key Takeaway: Hanson selected an hourglass-shaped LZ in the center for maximum visibility, only to have a large enemy force cross the narrowest point directly over his position.
  • Summary: The required extraction protocol demanded reconnaissance of the entire LZ perimeter, which Hanson found impractical. He positioned his team in the narrow center of the hourglass LZ. The enemy force, avoiding the open flanks, moved directly over their location, forcing the team to remain hidden until an aircraft distraction allowed them to call for extraction.
Lima 50 Backstory and Intel Find
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(01:24:54)
  • Key Takeaway: The Lima 50 mission in Cambodia yielded what Hanson considered the biggest intelligence find of any small unit in the Vietnam War, following the cancellation of the intelligence-supplying Project Gamma.
  • Summary: Project Gamma, which supplied 75% of all intelligence, was scrubbed due to significant communist infiltration in Saigon. The Lima 50 mission occurred in the hectic tri-border area of Cambodia. The subsequent intelligence haul was so significant that it directly led to the arrest of Colonel Roe and his staff by the CIA/US government.
Firefight and Hand Injury
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(01:27:35)
  • Key Takeaway: During a firefight on the Lima 50 mission, Hanson lost the use of several fingers on his hand while attempting to reload his M16 against an enemy soldier with a full magazine.
  • Summary: Hanson was engaged in a fierce firefight, throwing grenades and using his M79 launcher. When reaching for a new 20-round magazine, an enemy soldier fired, causing severe damage to his fingers, including blowing off the knuckle of his forefinger and taking the ends off others. He struggled to change the magazine as his mangled finger kept obstructing the magazine well.
Night Ambush Evasion
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(01:29:37)
  • Key Takeaway: After securing intelligence, Hanson’s team successfully evaded an overwhelming enemy force, including tracker dogs, by remaining motionless while the enemy passed directly by their position.
  • Summary: Hanson set up four Claymore mines, ready to detonate, as he heard enemy trucks and dogs approaching on the Ho Chi Minh Trail below. He prayed for the dogs’ noses to be plugged, and miraculously, the enemy force, including the dogs, passed by their position without detecting them.
Killing Chinese Couriers and Intel Recovery
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(01:31:36)
  • Key Takeaway: Hanson’s team killed two high-ranking Chinese NVA colonels who were couriers, recovering 200 pages of top-secret orders, including coordinates for underground factories and hospitals.
  • Summary: The two colonels were the highest-ranking enemy personnel killed behind enemy lines by a small unit during the war. The recovered intelligence detailed discipline for soldiers who self-wounded at Ben Het and locations within the Cu Chi tunnel system. This intelligence recovery was directly linked to the subsequent capture and interrogation of the double agent who caused Project Gamma to fold.
Handling the Double Agent
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(01:34:04)
  • Key Takeaway: The double agent, Chuan, who compromised Project Gamma, was captured, interrogated using sodium pentothal, and subsequently executed by being thrown overboard at sea by Colonel Roe’s staff.
  • Summary: After Chuan volunteered for a bogus CIA program (Phoenix/PRU), he was arrested and given sodium pentothal, confirming his role. The CIA refused custody, dumping the problem back on Special Forces command. Colonel Roe and his staff executed Chuan at sea to resolve the security breach.
Final Firefight and Extraction
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(01:38:13)
  • Key Takeaway: During the final engagement, Hanson was shot in the head, his M16 rifle was broken, and he was extracted while dangling from a tree after his team called for an immediate, close-proximity air strike.
  • Summary: Hanson was shot in the back of the head but managed to clear the shrapnel with his good hand. While holding off hundreds of surrounding enemy troops with a borrowed M1 Carbine, his own rifle was broken by a bullet passing through the comb. His teammate, Bob Garcia, called for an immediate air strike directly onto their position, and they were extracted under heavy fire.
Post-Mission Aftermath and Intel Impact
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(01:47:57)
  • Key Takeaway: The intelligence recovered from the Chinese couriers forced the US military to release Colonel Roe and his staff from stockade prison, despite Abrams’s known animosity toward Special Forces command.
  • Summary: Upon landing, Hanson was greeted by his father figure, Norm Dhoni, and Mike Buckland. The intelligence found was deemed highly significant, leading to the release of Colonel Roe and his men who had been jailed following Chuan’s execution. Abrams reportedly disliked Special Forces because they represented an officer corps outside of his direct control.
Downtime and Post-War Reflection
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(02:05:42)
  • Key Takeaway: During R&R, Hanson preferred traveling to Bangkok, Thailand, and he later commanded a Bontonier tribal company where the German Captain deferred all field command to him.
  • Summary: Hanson enjoyed the friendly people of Thailand during his rest and recuperation periods. While commanding a company, the German Captain, Otto Scorzini’s acquaintance, would immediately turn command over to Hanson (Sergeant Hansen) upon receiving mission orders. This allowed Hanson to lead the company through a highly successful mission involving 17 firefights.
Unexpected Radio Interference
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(02:21:30)
  • Key Takeaway: Two accompanying Vietnamese lieutenants, added due to Vietnamization requirements, attempted to warn off the enemy via radio, jeopardizing the planned ambush.
  • Summary: During an engagement setup, two unknown Vietnamese lieutenants, recently assigned due to Vietnamization policies, began shouting on the radio to prevent a firefight. Dale Hanson forcefully intervened by grabbing and throwing their radios over the embankment to maintain tactical surprise. This action immediately put Hanson on guard, as he then had to watch his own back for potential hostility from the lieutenants.
Mission Firefights and Ho Chi Minh Trail
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(02:38:02)
  • Key Takeaway: The mission involved 17 firefights, and the team slept directly on a heavily traveled section of the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Cambodia.
  • Summary: Hanson’s team won all 17 firefights on that specific mission, with Hanson sustaining only minor wounds. The night before assaulting a bunker complex, the team rested directly on the Ho Chi Minh Trail, a well-traveled road system in Cambodia. Hanson humorously noted the risk was either getting shot or run over by a truck.
Recon vs. Other SOG Roles
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(02:25:24)
  • Key Takeaway: Reconnaissance missions were the most gratifying yet terrifying aspect of SOG service due to operating deep behind enemy lines with minimal personnel.
  • Summary: Recon was described as the scariest duty, involving a small team surrounded by thousands of enemy forces. Hanson noted that while they felt apprehension, the training and guaranteed support assets prevented overt fear. The ethic in SOG recon was to break contact and continue the mission unless facing imminent disaster.
Inexperienced Operators and Mission Ethic
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(02:30:31)
  • Key Takeaway: Newer SOG operators often broke contact after a firefight to secure awards, contrasting with the original ethic of continuing the intelligence-gathering mission.
  • Summary: The traditional SOG ethic was to break contact and continue the mission unless facing overwhelming force, prioritizing intelligence gathering. Newer personnel often pulled out after a fight to obtain decorations like the Bronze Star. Successful missions without firefights were sometimes viewed negatively by others who expected combat engagement.
Hatchet Force Role and Briefing Secrecy
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(02:31:52)
  • Key Takeaway: The Hatchet Force acted as a SOG quick reaction force, but individual teams only knew their own specific mission details due to strict compartmentalization.
  • Summary: The Hatchet Force could be deployed as a reaction force if a SOG recon team found something significant requiring immediate action. However, due to non-disclosure agreements, the Reaction Force generally only knew their own mission set and objectives, not the details of other concurrent SOG operations.
Difficult Homecoming Experience
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(02:38:13)
  • Key Takeaway: Returning Vietnam veterans faced widespread dissatisfaction and hostility, contrasting sharply with the celebratory welcomes received by WWII veterans.
  • Summary: Hanson described the homecoming as being met with dissatisfaction and hatred, with some veterans being treated almost as criminals. He recounted an incident where a civilian tried to steal his beret at the airport. This transition created an existential ‘what now?’ feeling after the high intensity of combat operations.
Transition to Police Work
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(02:43:33)
  • Key Takeaway: After failing to complete pilot certification due to bureaucratic issues, Hanson joined the Sitka, Alaska police department, maxing out every category of the entrance exam.
  • Summary: Hanson’s attempt to become an airline pilot using the GI Bill was stalled by a check-ride conflict, leading him to pursue law enforcement in Alaska. He scored number one in all four academy categories (academic, physical fitness, driving, and shooting), an unprecedented achievement. His strict enforcement of the law, however, made him unpopular within the department.
Confronting Political Extremism in Alaska
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(02:47:08)
  • Key Takeaway: Hanson confronted communist indoctrination efforts targeting Native Alaskan students and later engaged in a deadly shootout with an individual attempting to execute commuters.
  • Summary: Hanson observed posters equating Native American heroes with communist figures like Stalin and Mao in Sitka’s regional school. This environment preceded an incident where he shot and killed a man who was actively shooting at passing cars on the highway. His wife’s immediate, pragmatic question after he reported the killing was, ‘Why did it take you two shots?’
Surviving Assassination Attempts
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(02:55:06)
  • Key Takeaway: Hanson faced multiple assassination attempts for about a year following the fatal shooting, including a sniper shot that narrowly missed him due to his dog’s warning bark.
  • Summary: Following the fatal shooting, three hitmen were flown in specifically to kill Hanson within hours. A year later, a sniper shot intended for his head passed through a seashell decoration in a window, narrowly missing him while he held his infant child. He maintained confidence and took normal precautions, believing this deterred further attempts.
The Start of Sculpting Career
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(03:00:02)
  • Key Takeaway: After being deemed ‘politically hot’ by his department, Hanson started carving, realizing its monetary value and finding ultimate gratification in transforming intrinsically worthless wood.
  • Summary: When employers feared hiring him, Hanson turned to carving, an activity he enjoyed as a child. A friend valued a soapstone seal at $1,200, and another sold an ivory whale for him, revealing the commercial potential. Hanson chose to focus on wood carving because it offered the greatest gratification by creating value from intrinsically worthless material.
Marriage and Ministry
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(03:06:58)
  • Key Takeaway: Hanson married his wife, Kathy, after proposing spontaneously while she was visiting his hospitalized friend, and he has served as a pastor for over 25 years.
  • Summary: Hanson proposed to Kathy Carlson after she repeatedly visited his friend who had been severely injured in a plane crash. They have been married for 53 years, and he credits her constant care and consideration. He has also served as a pastor at Sitka Bible Baptist Church for over two decades, emphasizing Bible-based sermons.