Shawn Ryan Show

#244 Victor Vescovo – Solo Dive to the Titanic, Cloning Humans & Reviving Extinct Animals

October 13, 2025

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  • Victor Vescovo views exploration, whether physical or financial (venture capital), as a genetic compulsion necessary for societal progress, contrasting explorers with those who maintain the status quo. 
  • Colossal Biosciences' primary value lies in the genetic manipulation tools being developed, which could aid in conserving existing endangered species, rather than solely in de-extincting animals like the woolly mammoth. 
  • Victor Vescovo strongly opposes deep-sea mining due to technical infeasibility, low economic relevance of the extracted metals (copper, manganese, cobalt, nickel), and the availability of terrestrial alternatives from allied nations. 
  • Seafloor nodules do not contain economic quantities of rare earth metals, suggesting that strategic metal sourcing should focus on partnerships with allies like Australia for raw ores. 
  • Victor Vescovo considers high-altitude mountaineering, specifically climbing Mount Everest, to be significantly more dangerous than his deep-sea dives due to the unforgiving nature of the 'death zone' above 8,000 meters. 
  • China's structural advantages in population and resource deployment are being countered by long-term demographic decline, which is projected to cause severe domestic instability in the coming decades. 
  • Summiting Mount Everest with supplemental oxygen is extremely dangerous, as the oxygen only mitigates the effects of hypoxia, allowing survival but not making the climb easy or safe. 
  • Climbing Karsten's Pyramid in Papua New Guinea was Victor Vescovo's most dangerous climb due to extreme remoteness, hostile local tribes, and technical free-climbing sections requiring self-rescue. 
  • Experiencing Earth from space induces the 'overview effect,' a profound psychological shift that fosters a desire to be better and do better, suggesting space exploration is a key mechanism for species improvement. 

Segments

Guest Introduction and Accomplishments
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(00:01:07)
  • Key Takeaway: Victor Vescovo is the first person to achieve the extreme trifecta: climbing Mount Everest, diving to the ocean’s bottom, and visiting space.
  • Summary: Victor Vescovo is introduced as a private investor, retired Navy Commander, and extreme explorer who completed the Explorer’s Grand Slam. He has made fifteen dives to Challenger Deep and is the first person to visit the deepest point in all five oceans. He recently became the first person to climb Everest, dive to the ocean’s bottom, and visit space.
Timepiece as Survival Equipment
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(00:03:18)
  • Key Takeaway: An analog, precision, waterproof timepiece is critical safety equipment in a submersible emergency when all electronics fail, referencing its use during Apollo 13.
  • Summary: Vescovo wears a titanium Omega Seamaster on all his deep dives, noting it has been to 17 deep ocean trenches and into space. He highlights that analog instruments are necessary safety backups in submersibles, citing the Apollo 13 mission where an Omega watch timed a critical burn. A precise, timed signal, like tapping Morse code, can be used for rescue if electronics fail.
Family Life and Expedition Balance
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(00:06:58)
  • Key Takeaway: Vescovo admits his intense pursuit of career, military service, and exploring has caused his personal family life to suffer due to the necessary time commitment.
  • Summary: When asked about the impact of his expeditions, Vescovo acknowledged that something had to give, and family life was a drawback during his most intensive diving period (2018-2022). During that four-year span, he was often away for weeks or months at a time, similar to being deployed.
Childhood and Explorer Mentality
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(00:09:42)
  • Key Takeaway: The compulsion to explore is described as a genetic trait necessary for societal advancement, balanced by those who maintain the home and hearth.
  • Summary: Vescovo grew up in Dallas, Texas, was a quiet child who loved reading military history, and developed an early desire to explore via bicycle. He believes the drive to explore new places is genetic, representing the 2-3% of the population that pushes boundaries, which society needs alongside those who maintain stability.
Venture Capital and De-Extinction
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(00:12:25)
  • Key Takeaway: Venture capital investments, such as in Colossal Biosciences, represent exploration in financial and societal realms, focusing on developing breakthrough tools rather than just the headline outcomes.
  • Summary: Vescovo invests in Colossal Biosciences, which is developing genetic manipulation tools, noting that de-extinction of dinosaurs is impossible due to DNA degradation, but the woolly mammoth is projected for 2028. The true value of Colossal is in the tools that can help conserve critically endangered species by allowing large edits to mammalian DNA.
Dire Wolf Behavior and Ecosystems
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(00:17:05)
  • Key Takeaway: Reintroducing apex predators, like the Tasmanian tiger or wolves in Yellowstone, fundamentally transforms and heals ecosystems by controlling overgrazing and changing river courses.
  • Summary: The behavior of the resurrected dire wolf is unknown, as only fossil records exist, but the goal is to restore ecological niches, similar to the positive impact of reintroducing gray wolves to Yellowstone. The loss of the Tasmanian tiger unbalanced Tasmania’s ecosystem, leading to overgrazing, which can be reversed by restoring the apex predator.
Human Cloning and Artificial Wombs
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(00:23:12)
  • Key Takeaway: The technology being developed for de-extinction includes artificial wombs for mammals, which has profound societal implications if applied to human fertility.
  • Summary: Vescovo believes human cloning is inevitable, if not already occurring, given the success in cloning other mammals. Colossal Biosciences is developing artificial wombs to grow animals without surrogates, a technology that, if perfected for mammals, opens complex ethical discussions regarding human fertility.
Educational Path and Military Service
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(00:25:06)
  • Key Takeaway: Vescovo’s academic path transitioned from engineering at Stanford to defense modeling at MIT, culminating in a direct commission into Naval Intelligence due to his diverse background.
  • Summary: After Stanford, Vescovo studied human conflict and warfare modeling at MIT, earning a Master’s degree before working in finance, including in Saudi Arabia. His background in languages, math, and Middle East experience led the U.S. Navy to offer him a direct commission as an intelligence officer in 1993.
Counterinsurgency Warfare Principles
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(00:32:37)
  • Key Takeaway: Winning a counterinsurgency requires four critical, often unmet, conditions: isolating the battlefield, isolating the population, continuous hunt-and-destroy missions, and establishing enduring successor institutions.
  • Summary: Napoleon stated that professionals study logistics, but winning guerrilla wars requires isolating the enemy’s base of supply and rest (the battlefield). Successful counterinsurgencies, like the Boer War, isolate the population from supporting the guerrillas, while the U.S. often fails to establish institutions capable of enduring after withdrawal.
Venture Capital Focus and Responsibility
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(00:38:53)
  • Key Takeaway: High-net-worth individuals have a responsibility to invest in breakthrough technologies that move human progress forward, even if the investment fails financially.
  • Summary: Vescovo has shifted from industrial private equity to investing in breakthrough technologies like AstroForge (asteroid mining) and life sciences, aiming to change lives significantly. He believes that even if an investment like AstroForge fails to mine asteroids, the resulting technological advancements for deep space exploration still constitute a success.
Deep Sea Mining Opposition
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(00:49:11)
  • Key Takeaway: Deep-sea mining is opposed due to environmental destruction, technical difficulty operating heavy machinery at extreme depths, and the limited economic relevance of the four metals recovered.
  • Summary: Vescovo argues that polymetallic nodules only yield copper, manganese, cobalt, and nickel, two of which are common terrestrially, and the others are becoming irrelevant due to battery chemistry shifts (e.g., LiFePO4 batteries). He contends that breaking China’s dominance in metal supply chains requires investing in U.S. processing facilities, not relying on deep-sea extraction.
Metal Sourcing Strategy
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(00:59:28)
  • Key Takeaway: Strategic metal supply chain security relies on partnering with allies like Australia for raw ores rather than expensive, environmentally costly domestic processing or seafloor mining.
  • Summary: Seafloor nodules lack economic quantities of rare earth metals, despite claims supporting national security angles. The proposed counter-strategy involves the US supplying nuclear submarines to Australia in exchange for nickel and cobalt. This geopolitical approach replicates China’s strategy by leveraging allied nations for raw material acquisition.
Gift Exchange and Firearms
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(01:01:29)
  • Key Takeaway: Victor Vescovo received a new SIG 2011-style handgun as a gift from Shawn Ryan, which Vescovo highly appreciated, comparing it favorably to his existing Kimber 1911.
  • Summary: The conversation briefly paused for a gift exchange where Vescovo received a new SIG handgun featuring a compensator. Vescovo expressed deep appreciation for the gift, noting its quality. He also shared his preference for revolvers among firearms but acknowledged the unique characteristics of all types.
China’s Structural Challenges
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(01:03:18)
  • Key Takeaway: China’s long-term power projection is fundamentally threatened by a precipitous population decline, exacerbated by a severe male-female imbalance resulting from the one-child policy.
  • Summary: China possesses structural advantages like population size and government-directed funding but faces constraints due to environmental regulations. Its military capabilities are untested in modern maritime conflict, making an amphibious invasion of Taiwan highly risky. The population decline, expected to drop below 800 million by century’s end, will lead to significant social instability.
Titanic Solo Dive Dangers
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(01:13:39)
  • Key Takeaway: Victor Vescovo’s solo dive to the Titanic was the most dangerous dive he undertook, primarily due to the risk of entanglement from wreck debris and strong currents matching the submersible’s maximum speed.
  • Summary: The first solo dive to the Titanic was perilous because wrecks present entanglement hazards like cables, which can disable propellers with no external repair option. Strong currents near the wreck pushed the submersible toward the structure, requiring emergency thruster maneuvers. Visibility was extremely limited, forcing Vescovo to constantly monitor sonar while looking out the window.
Deep Wreck Discovery and History
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(01:23:02)
  • Key Takeaway: The discovery of the USS Johnston and USS Samuel B. Roberts at extreme depths allowed for the reconstruction of the Battle off Samar, confirming the Johnston was likely hit by a shell from the Yamato.
  • Summary: Vescovo’s team found the two deepest shipwrecks in history, the USS Johnston and USS Samuel B. Roberts, at depths around 6,500-6,800 meters, 50% deeper than the Titanic. These wrecks are pristine due to low oxygen, allowing for reconstruction of battle damage, including evidence suggesting the Johnston was hit by the Yamato’s massive gun. Vescovo noted the emotional impact of seeing the final resting place of sailors who fought heroically.
Five Deeps Project Motivation
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(01:28:26)
  • Key Takeaway: The motivation for the Five Dives Project was a combination of the ‘Explorer’s gene’ and the technical challenge of reaching previously unvisited ocean floors, leading to the creation of reusable deep-sea mapping technology.
  • Summary: Vescovo was driven to complete the Five Dives Project because four of the five ocean bottoms had never been reached by humans since the 1960 dive. He is now developing a semi-autonomous vessel to map the 75% of the ocean floor that remains unexplored, intending to donate the maps to the open-source community. Every dive typically resulted in the discovery of new species, some of which utilize chemosynthesis, suggesting life forms similar to those potentially found on icy moons.
Underwater Brine Lakes
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(01:43:07)
  • Key Takeaway: Underwater brine lakes, like those observed in the Red Sea, are pools of hyper-saline water that form distinct shorelines and act as a physical barrier due to density differences, capable of causing equipment failure from extreme heat.
  • Summary: Brine lakes form underwater where evaporation leaves behind highly concentrated salt deposits, creating water layers with significantly different densities. Vescovo’s submersible bounced off the brine barrier before penetrating it, causing internal temperatures to spike rapidly, potentially exceeding 130 degrees Fahrenheit and frying electronics. The water inside the lake was crystal clear, contrasting sharply with the milky white barrier layer.
Grand Slam and Everest Danger
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(01:53:07)
  • Key Takeaway: The Explorer’s Grand Slam, requiring summiting the highest peak on all seven continents and skiing to both poles, was completed over 20 years, with high-altitude mountaineering being Vescovo’s most dangerous endeavor.
  • Summary: The North Pole is significantly harder to reach than the South Pole because it involves navigating moving ice flows, risking immediate death from immersion in sub-zero water. Climbing Everest is a two-month physical and mental ordeal where climbers are slowly dying above 8,000 meters, and supplemental oxygen only mitigates the effects, rather than normalizing conditions. The presence of deceased climbers on the summit route highlights the extreme physical limitations and risks involved in summit day.
Everest Oxygen Dangers
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(01:57:48)
  • Key Takeaway: Supplemental oxygen on Everest only reduces the perceived altitude by 3,000 to 4,000 feet and is critical for warmth, not a source of superhuman strength.
  • Summary: Stopping to rest on Everest is equivalent to dying slowly; running out of oxygen means the climb is over because the body adapts to its presence. The oxygen’s primary function is to take the edge off the altitude and maintain body warmth. People who summit using oxygen are rare and the environment remains extremely serious and dangerous.
Everest Summit Day Reality
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(01:58:39)
  • Key Takeaway: Summit day on Everest renders climbers hypoxic, drunk-like, and unable to recognize teammates due to extreme wind noise and heavy gear, prioritizing self-preservation over assisting others.
  • Summary: Dead bodies remain on the narrow trail because climbers are too exhausted and hypoxic to act, often appearing drunk. The loud wind prevents hearing, and heavy gear obscures identity, making it difficult to assess if a nearby person is resting or dying. Survival becomes the sole focus, especially in bad weather.
Karsten’s Pyramid Danger
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(01:59:32)
  • Key Takeaway: Karsten’s Pyramid in Papua New Guinea was more dangerous than Everest due to remoteness, hostile tribes, and required free-climbing sections with no medical support.
  • Summary: The trek involved six days through primordial forest, requiring protection from tribes armed with bows and arrows. The climb included free-climbing sections without ropes and a Tyrolean traverse over a chasm, demanding complete self-rescue capability. Interactions with local tribes were tense, including one standoff where the team was surrounded by an ’enemy’ tribe.
Comparing Exploration Experiences
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(02:02:17)
  • Key Takeaway: Deep ocean dives feel ancient and dark like a pyramid, Everest is like mortal combat, and space travel is an awesome, fast, and enjoyable experience with friends.
  • Summary: Diving to the ocean floor evokes an immense sense of time, feeling ancient and dark. Climbing Everest is compared to being severely beaten in the octagon while trying to survive. Space travel, conversely, is described as going to an awesome Metallica concert, involving a rapid ascent to space where one floats and views the Earth.
Overview Effect and Space Value
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(02:03:21)
  • Key Takeaway: Seeing Earth from space causes the ‘overview effect,’ psychologically changing individuals to desire being better, and commercial space access drives technological advancement benefiting all species.
  • Summary: The view of Earth from space features vivid colors, a white sun against black, and a visible thin atmospheric veneer, which is drop-dead gorgeous. This experience can change people psychologically by showing the lack of boundaries on Earth, inspiring them to come back and be better. Advancing space exploration, like early aviation, will eventually make it more accessible and drive technological developments that solve global problems.
Spirituality and Zen Buddhism
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(02:06:58)
  • Key Takeaway: Victor Vescovo practices Zen Buddhism, which emphasizes that human language limits true understanding, necessitating direct experience, and he finds spirituality through experiencing the world’s awe-inspiring places.
  • Summary: Vescovo, raised Episcopalian, sees value in all religions for encouraging moral behavior, but his personal spirituality comes from experiencing the world as it is, not worrying about the unknowable afterlife. Zen Buddhism focuses on meditation as a doorway to connection, often using riddles to bypass the limitations of human language in explaining the universe. The Himalayas serve as the greatest ‘Gothic cathedral’ he has ever witnessed for spiritual connection.
Lessons from Flying and Military
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(02:11:13)
  • Key Takeaway: Learning to fly instilled self-discipline, environmental connection, and a systematic approach to planning and risk management that informs all of Victor Vescovo’s endeavors.
  • Summary: Flying taught Vescovo to be connected to the environment, understand mechanics, and practice self-discipline regarding readiness and risk assessment. This pilot mindset—checking craft readiness, personal readiness, planning, and contingency routes—is applied to all his activities. The Navy further taught him crucial lessons in managing and motivating diverse personnel, including A, B, and less effective players, into a cohesive team.
Future Ocean Mapping Vessel
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(02:12:38)
  • Key Takeaway: A new, specialized ocean surveillance vessel named after Victor Vescovo is being built to map the seafloor at an unprecedented rate, potentially covering 70% of the unmapped ocean.
  • Summary: The new T-AGOS 26 vessel is designed solely for ocean mapping, a unique focus that should allow it to map as much as the rest of the world’s combined fleet. The goal is to encourage others to acquire similar vessels to accelerate mapping, as one ship would take 80 years to complete the task. Construction bids are being sought globally, but the vessel will not be built in China due to Vescovo’s stated preference.
Unmapped Ocean Priorities
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(02:14:04)
  • Key Takeaway: The primary obstacle to further deep ocean exploration is not technology or money, but obtaining necessary governmental permits, especially given Vescovo’s background as a former naval intelligence officer.
  • Summary: Vescovo plans to use the new vessel’s initial operations to map trenches he has not yet visited, preparing for future submersible dives. He notes that during his ‘Five Deeps’ achievement, they had to map areas first because the locations of the bottoms of four oceans were unknown. Permitting from various governments presents the biggest hurdle for deploying experimental submersibles in their waters.